Author Topic: Who thinks that Rav Ovadiah's petira will be the beginning of the end of Shas?  (Read 1848 times)

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Offline ChabadKahanist

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I think after the shloshim a power struggle will ensue & lead to divisions.

Offline Zelhar

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Wishful thinking.

Offline ChabadKahanist

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Wishful thinking.
Not at all look at other movements for example after Rav Kahane,ZT"L,HY"D.ZY"A was murdered the movement split into many factions,same with Chabad,Breslov,Satmar,Vizhnitz & many others who leaders died split into a few or many factions often hostile to one another.

Offline mord

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Not at all look at other movements for example after Rav Kahane,ZT"L,HY"D.ZY"A was murdered the movement split into many factions,same with Chabad,Breslov,Satmar,Vizhnitz & many others who leaders died split into a few or many factions often hostile to one another.
This is very true good examples
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Zelhar

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Shas is not a chassidic court and most of their voters don't just vote for them out of pure admiration to Rabbi Yosef or the Torah. They expect to shas to bring them pork (punt intended). Shas is like the Democrats with peyot and black hats.

Offline ChabadKahanist

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Shas is not a chassidic court and most of their voters don't just vote for them out of pure admiration to Rabbi Yosef or the Torah. They expect to shas to bring them pork (punt intended). Shas is like the Democrats with peyot and black hats.
While this is so regardless just as the Kahane movement splintered after the Rav's death & after the Litvish world split somewhat after Rav Elyashiv's death so will Shas.
Too much animosity amongst the polticos such as Yishai & Deri
There is already talk of Yishai defecting to Likud or or starting a breakaway party with Rav Amsalem.

Offline Zelhar

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The Ashkenazi "Union of Torah Judasim" remains one block despite the internal conflicts. It is composed of the Litvak Degel HaTorah and the Hassidic Agudat Yisrael and each one is in turn composed of various fractions with internal struggles but still they remain in the same block and united in their goal of leeching the maximum amount of pork out of the working tax payers.

If one Hassidic court would try to go it alone they know they are going to fail and be left out of the scavenging so they stick together no matter how much they despise each other.

Shas has somewhat different dynamic in that most of their voters are not zombies who automatically vote to the party and candidate their rabbi orders them. In shas the functioneers like Deri and Yishai run the show and Rabbi Yosef was basically a figure head especially in his latter years. Sure his word was like law but he spoke the words that the corrupt confidants put in his mouth. Sometime he didn't speak at all, he was just rumoured to say this or that thing and that was enough.

Now it is likely there will be less cohesion and more open battles that once only went on behind the scenes but the fact remains that anyone who will try to run alone will fail and be left out just like all the others who tried and failed in the past— because they will be running on image alone and will not have any material incentive to offer for their potential voters.

Offline ChabadKahanist

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The Ashkenazi "Union of Torah Judasim" remains one block despite the internal conflicts. It is composed of the Litvak Degel HaTorah and the Hassidic Agudat Yisrael and each one is in turn composed of various fractions with internal struggles but still they remain in the same block and united in their goal of leeching the maximum amount of pork out of the working tax payers.

If one Hassidic court would try to go it alone they know they are going to fail and be left out of the scavenging so they stick together no matter how much they despise each other.

Shas has somewhat different dynamic in that most of their voters are not zombies who automatically vote to the party and candidate their rabbi orders them. In shas the functioneers like Deri and Yishai run the show and Rabbi Yosef was basically a figure head especially in his latter years. Sure his word was like law but he spoke the words that the corrupt confidants put in his mouth. Sometime he didn't speak at all, he was just rumoured to say this or that thing and that was enough.

Now it is likely there will be less cohesion and more open battles that once only went on behind the scenes but the fact remains that anyone who will try to run alone will fail and be left out just like all the others who tried and failed in the past— because they will be running on image alone and will not have any material incentive to offer for their potential voters.
UTJ has been known to break up & then re-unite when convenient & indeed there are divisions in the the Litvish world since Rav Eliyashiv's passing.
Shas will have less cohesion & the non-Chareidim will defect to other parties IMHO.
The Mishichistim were trying to run with Baruch Marzel & ended up with Ben Ari who was the candidate of Shalom Dov Wolpo & Baruch Marzel. In the end Ben Ari is out & B"H to that.
Only time will tell if Shas will fall apart post Rav Ovadia.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Many Shas voters are not Haredi (Maybe even most.) and some aren't even religious, but rather Traditional Sfaradim. They see it as an ethnic Sfardic party.


Offline ChabadKahanist

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Many Shas voters are not Haredi (Maybe even most.) and some aren't even religious, but rather Traditional Sfaradim. They see it as an ethnic Sfardic party.
While this is quite true it very well split due to power struggles between the politicos

Offline Dr. Dan

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His son or grandson may take over and then there will be several factions.. Left wing and middle wing and Kahane wing.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Many Shas voters are not Haredi (Maybe even most.) and some aren't even religious, but rather Traditional Sfaradim. They see it as an ethnic Sfardic party.

 Many Rav Kahane voters as well.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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His son or grandson may take over and then there will be several factions.. Left wing and middle wing and Kahane wing.

 I think I know what you mean but that son passed away- Rav Yakov Yosef ZTL, and his grandson isn't part of Shas, he is running for office I believe he is connected to Ben Ari's people (forgot that guys name but he was #3 listed on Ben Ari's party). The guy who worked and works to settle Jews in "East Jerusalem".

 * Aryeh King is his name.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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There is already talk of Yishai defecting to Likud or or starting a breakaway party with Rav Amsalem.

 I doubt it. Rav Amsalem already broke away, if Yishai breaks away (and they did have differences and different approach and policy then when Deri was and now again is in charge) he will most likely work with someone like Rav Amnon Yitzhak (Just a wild guess didn't hear of anything). Also possibly Rav Amar will break away.

 To the person who said that Shas will remain the same- highly doubt it. Rav Ovadia Yosef was the sybol of the party. Many voted for it only because of him. I doubt it will remain the same in the years to come.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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We can only hope this is the deathbed of Shas.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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We can only hope this is the deathbed of Shas.

 A Siyum HaShas  ;)
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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