anti judaism or anti semitism

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Is he still on the forum?

Yes, he's one of our best members! I was just kidding!

[muman613]

I have a question related to this;

A few months ago the moderator of a forum I belonged to said that he wanted cirumcism and kosher slughter banned in Britain because he thought they were cruel.

I thought this was an anti semitic viewpoint and said so. He said he wasn't anti semitic because he strongly supported Israel against the Palestinians, (and he really does)
 
I know that he does voluntary work for a conservative secular Jew that he likes very much.
He said that he think circumcism and Kosher slaughter is O.K in Israel because the majority there are Jewish and he believes in Israel's national soverenty. He just does not want it in Britain in the same way he does not want Muslim slaughter either.
He also is very negative about Ultra Orthodox, while he is very positive about secular British Jews.   Is that person anti-semitic?

I never met anyone like him before and didn't know what to make of it.

If he seeks to prohibit Jews from practicing their religion he is an anti-semite according to my (and the generic) definition of the term.

He has selectively decided he doesn't like kosher slaughter (which is the most humane method of slaughter known to man) and circumcision (which is one of the safest medical procedures performed) then I would consider him an antisemite.

[Israel Chai]

I think he's from there but he's not there now.

He made a pretty supportive comment about the TOR browser...

Oh my gosh! SpiralingLeopard was a troll this whole time!

Now why would you just come out with that accusation.

I have a question related to this;

A few months ago the moderator of a forum I belonged to said that he wanted cirumcism and kosher slughter banned in Britain because he thought they were cruel.

I thought this was an anti semitic viewpoint and said so. He said he wasn't anti semitic because he strongly supported Israel against the Palestinians, (and he really does)
 
I know that he does voluntary work for a conservative secular Jew that he likes very much.
He said that he think circumcism and Kosher slaughter is O.K in Israel because the majority there are Jewish and he believes in Israel's national soverenty. He just does not want it in Britain in the same way he does not want Muslim slaughter either.
He also is very negative about Ultra Orthodox, while he is very positive about secular British Jews.   Is that person anti-semitic?

I never met anyone like him before and didn't know what to make of it.

The British generally don't like Judaism. They also end up supporting the Fraudestinians largely, because though they can not like what they do, they can't really say it's wrong or right, because the concept is gradually erased from secular society. What's easy becomes what's right. In the end, he would pressure Israel to move to Africa if somehow (G-d forbid) infrastructure was wiped out and an opening came up among the sub-Saharans. What is Israel to him?

Now there are some Ultra-Othodox groups who hate Israel, so already it's easy to generalize. The thing is, the majority of secular Jews won't be Jews in a generation, so it's easy to support them, they're just like him. No difference whatsoever, except they get a bigger punishment than your Judaism-hating British friend, if they know the truth and spit in G-d's face.

You want to get non-Jews to love you, that's the key. Leave Judaism. Marry their son Hans and tell your brother to marry Gretchin. Hate or not, if Jews keep what G-d promised is for our, and the whole world's good, nothing can touch us, and the goyim will respect us.

It's perfectly natural therefore for them to hate circumcision, kosher slaughter, and would probably hate a half-secular if he kept shabbat instead of coming to his pork-barbecue. They don't understand it. While it's easy to prove that the second a kosher knife cuts the throat according to Halacha, the animal doesn't feel any pain, and any spasmatic movements thereafter are muscle reflexes, since there is no blood to the beast's brain, but what would that help? There is blood. He would prefer a bullet to the brain, because it's less shocking, and if you don't do that with a pig, it really will feel a lot of pain. Either way, how can he argue that causing the least amount of pain is not the best way? If he has another slaughter method, lethal injection, which causes more pain, but makes no mess, he can say that's the best option. Would you follow him then, and how would you defend kosher slaughter? The pain is not the issue, the blood is not the issue, it's that it's different from what they do. We have a spiritual reason for kosher slaughter, and a thousand for circumcision, but this is meaningless to him. No matter what you say, he will still hate it, but the best way to survive as a Jew, ironically, is to be the kind of person our Esavite Brit would hate.

[muman613]

Good reply LKZ...

[Dr. Dan]

I have a question related to this;

A few months ago the moderator of a forum I belonged to said that he wanted cirumcism and kosher slughter banned in Britain because he thought they were cruel.

I thought this was an anti semitic viewpoint and said so. He said he wasn't anti semitic because he strongly supported Israel against the Palestinians, (and he really does)
 
I know that he does voluntary work for a conservative secular Jew that he likes very much.
He said that he think circumcism and Kosher slaughter is O.K in Israel because the majority there are Jewish and he believes in Israel's national soverenty. He just does not want it in Britain in the same way he does not want Muslim slaughter either.
He also is very negative about Ultra Orthodox, while he is very positive about secular British Jews.   Is that person anti-semitic?

I never met anyone like him before and didn't know what to make of it.

Your friend should fight against Halal slaughter and Muslim maniacs before worrying about what Jews do.  Besides, circumcision and Kosher slaughter is not cruel.  If your friend is worried about animals getting Kosher slaughter then he should stop eating meat all together and stop killing mosquitos since that is just as "cruel".

[brenden]

i think your looking at this in the wrong way. Your friend is against animal cruilty it doesnt matter if kosher slaughter is cruwel because he thinks it is and because he does it isnt anti semitic or anything. I am not saying that it should be banned i am just saying that there is another point of view

[brenden]

no its not the same because it doesnt matter if his friend thinks kosher is cruel to animals. it doesnt hurt anyone

[Israel Chai]

no its not the same because it doesnt matter if his friend thinks kosher is cruel to animals. it doesnt hurt anyone

Matzot don't hurt anyone.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Matzot don't hurt anyone.

Why did you change your avatar? It looks like Mumans

[Israel Chai]

Why did you change your avatar? It looks like Mumans

I just realized that a couple minutes ago. I think it's funny.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Why did you change your avatar? It looks like Mumans

 LOL I thought the same thing.

[muman613]

Looks like the anti-me....

Reminds me of the Star Trek episode where Spock became the good Spock/bad Spock...

[fibrogirl]

Thanks everyone for the answers.
 
Yes he likes secular Jews because he knows that in a generation they will not be Jewish. He actually hinted that but I didn't pick up on it till you here said it.

It's rare that a British person like Israel but hates the Orthodox Jews.
It threw me. It tends to be the other way around in Britain.

I've heard that some Eastern European countries have this pattern to their antisemitism.

I've never fully understood how they think, despite all my childhood in Britain.

[Israel Chai]

Thanks everyone for the answers.
 
Yes he likes secular Jews because he knows that in a generation they will not be Jewish. He actually said that but I didn't pick up on it till you here said it.

It's rare that a British person like Israel but hates the Orthodox Jews.
It threw me. It tends to be the other way around in Britain.

I've heard that some Eastern European countries have this pattern to their antisemitism.

I've never fully understood how they think, despite all my childhood in Britain.

All non-Jews have an innate desire to hate Jews, and it started when we received Torah and not them. You can never change your nature, because it's who you are, but you can control it, and some just hide it. There isn't a country on earth that won't explode into anti-semitic violence for any of countless reasons. It's better to have Jewish friends for your benefit, and your closeness with the community and G-d, but if you want to be friends with this guy, understand that he won't be interested in tikkun olam, and won't accept it if you try to live up to your mission.

[brenden]

thats really persimistic, do you have no faith in human kind?

[muman613]

thats really persimistic, do you have no faith in human kind?

Don't you think we have a right to be 'pessamistic'? Considering how the Jews have been persecuted in virtually every country we have lived in? Do I have any trust that America might not turn antisemitic at some point? No, I think it could happen here just like it happened in Europe. People are currently denying that Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust (they call it the holohoax or LOLocaust). The world has turned its back on Israel in it's existential struggle with Iran which seeks it's destruction.

I think it is realistic for Jews to accept 'Essau hates Yaakov'...

While humanity in the end will show it is good, when it accepts the Jewish people and our mission. Jews have always just wanted to co-exist, be allowed to live in our land in peace, and the nations can live in their lands in peace... But the nations have a long way to go to live in peace with Jews.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Not every non-Jew hated Jews and Israel nor is it natural and such. At the time of Egypt their were 3 advisors to Pharoah- Yitro, Bilam and Iyov. Bilam hated Jews and was eventually killed, Yitro was against the plan to kill Jewish children soo he fled (in protest) and eas eventually blessed and Iyov stood in silence (was indifferent) and had suffering in his life time.
 Soo every person has something unique to mankind- Freedom of choice. Everyone has choice and they can choose what they do or don't do.

 And "Esav hates Jacob" was specific to that Esav and that Jacob, its not a rule for all time and not all gentiles are Esav.

 On the other hand it is true about the Mt. Sinai issue, but that is as a whole and an explanation for anti-Semitism which ultimately comes from jealousy that because as a whole only Am Yisrael accepted the Torah while other nations did not that is why many people and nations instead of accepting the Torah themselves come to hate Am Yisrael because of it (in that they can't live up to that ideal soo they try to put us down as well).

[muman613]

Not every non-Jew hated Jews and Israel nor is it natural and such. At the time of Egypt their were 3 advisors to Pharoah- Yitro, Bilam and Iyov. Bilam hated Jews and was eventually killed, Yitro was against the plan to kill Jewish children soo he fled (in protest) and eas eventually blessed and Iyov stood in silence (was indifferent) and had suffering in his life time.
 Soo every person has something unique to mankind- Freedom of choice. Everyone has choice and they can choose what they do or don't do.

 And "Esav hates Jacob" was specific to that Esav and that Jacob, its not a rule for all time and not all gentiles are Esav.

 On the other hand it is true about the Mt. Sinai issue, but that is as a whole and an explanation for anti-Semitism which ultimately comes from jealousy that because as a whole only Am Yisrael accepted the Torah while other nations did not that is why many people and nations instead of accepting the Torah themselves come to hate Am Yisrael because of it (in that they can't live up to that ideal soo they try to put us down as well).

Actually Essau Hates Jacob is for all generations... According to many teachings this is the case. Remember the concept 'what happens to the forefathers is a sign for the children'...

This is learned from a Rashi which most sages accept..

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/wbr/48923487.html

QUESTIONING RASHI

A Question: What does Rabbi Shimon mean when he says "It is a law that Esau hates Jacob"? What kind of "law" is this? That's a strange term to use. He could say Esau (the gentiles) hate the Jews. But to call this a law is quite unusual. And if is a "law" why is this case an exception?
 
WHAT IS BOTHERING RASHI?

It is not difficult to see what question Rashi is responding to. Esau was out to kill Jacob and all of a sudden (after 22 years) he runs to embrace and kiss him. "Methinks he doth protest too much."

It is for this reason that Rashi tries to understand Esau's motivation.

But back to our question: What did Rabbi Shimon mean when he says "It is a law"?

Your Answer:
 
UNDERSTANDING RASHI

An Answer: There are laws of countries and laws of nature. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai is saying something very profound. Esau's hatred of Israel – Gentile anti-Semitism, is akin to a law of nature. It is immutable. It is everlasting. It need not be rational to be. It just is. Each generation of Jews has experienced anti-Semitism in one form or another for over three thousand years. Each generation tries to understand why the nations of the world have an antipathy for Jews. Once it is explained as being due to the Jews being rich (as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion claimed – "Jews control the powers in the whole world"); sometimes it is because Jews are poor and always begging. Sometimes it's because they are materialistic capitalists; sometimes because they are revolutionary communists. Sometimes because they are backward and uncouth; sometimes because they are too cultured and high society. Sometimes because they are parasites in foreign lands and have no country of their own; sometimes because they do have a country of their own. On and on it goes.

We live in the midst of this situation right now.

The phenomenon of anti-Semitism defies any rational attempt to explain it. It is not rational just as any law of nature is not rational. It just is.

See also:

http://www.torah.org/features/secondlook/antisem.html

Old-fashioned racial anti-Semitism - the view that even a drop of Jewish blood contains and transmits some irremediable taint - is deep underground if it has not disappeared altogether. Yet American Jews persist in seeing anti-Semites around every corner, primarily as a psychological salve. To paraphrase Descartes: I am hated as a Jew, therefore I exist as a Jew.

So has anti-Semitism disappeared? Hardly. "Esau hates Jacob" is one of the fundamental spiritual principles governing our world, our Sages tell us. Hatred of Jacob may take many forms, but it will never go away.

Jew hatred today rarely takes the form of racial anti-Semitism. Rather it is directed at the idea of the Jews as a nation. And Israel, however imperfect a model of Jewish nationhood it may be, signifies to the world the assertion of Jewish peoplehood.

"To the Jews as individuals, everything; to the Jews as a nation, nothing," Napoleon said, and today much of the world follows suit.

The UN's obsession with Israel is but one proof that something deeper than a concern with human rights or even national self-interest underlies the animosity towards Israel. The hijacking of the upcoming UN conference on racism to condemn Israel as founded on an ideology of apartheid is but the most recent example.

[muman613]

Tag,

I agree that every gentile has within him the ability to break away from the 'predisposition' toward hating Yaakov, and this discussion must be placed in context within the concept of 'free will'... But there is reason to learn 'Essau Hates Jacob'...


http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/durbandejavu.html

The U.N. has long embodied a particularly wild and blatant manifestation of what the Midrash calls a "law" of nature: "Esau hates Jacob."  The world's outlaw-nations are unprepared to grant us any peace, even after they witnessed a third of our people utterly destroyed. Behind the United Nations ' austere façade lies a veritable jungle, crawling with well-dressed, diplomatically correct savages.

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/vayish73.htm
Prepare for both peace and war

Rashi (ibid 33:4) quotes Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who explained (Sifri Bamidbar 69) that although Esau as a rule hates Jacob, G'd helped by arousing Esau's mercy at that moment, and he genuinely kissed Jacob. We, Jacob's descendants, still have many enemies that as a rule harbour hatred against us, but if we emulate our Patriarch and put our trust in G'd, we have a chance that we also will merit His Divine protection. Every time we pray we express our understanding that ultimately everything is in G'd's hands. At the same time, we know that we may not just leave it to G'd and rely on miracles. We therefore seek natural ways how to survive being surrounded by enemies. We want to win the peace rather than the war, but just like Jacob we must prepare for both.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman- their is no "predisposition" to hating Jews. I will bli never post a shiur explaining that sentence you brought "Esav hates Jacob" that explains it to be that specific Esav like I said earlier. (Rabbi Bechoffer)

[muman613]

Muman- their is no "predisposition" to hating Jews. I will bli never post a shiur explaining that sentence you brought "Esav hates Jacob" that explains it to be that specific Esav like I said earlier. (Rabbi Bechoffer)

I'd like to see this because I have heard this from many, many sources... As I have posted some basic excerpts which explain that Rashi brings it based on a Midrash... So let us hear your explanation..


And this statement, "It is a law that Essau hates Jacob" doesn't have anything to do with 'predisposition' to hate Jews. As I said it is up to each non-Jew to decide his disposition towards Jews. But there will always be a force of Essau hating on the Jewish people, it will not cease till the Messianic era.

[muman613]

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/isaac_and_his_sons/

Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, who wrote the chief work of the Kabbalah, the Zohar, some 2,000 years, said that “It’s a know law that Esau hates Jacob(3).” These are the spiritual laws of reality, so to speak, that describe the interaction between the Jews and descendants of Esau. This deep-seated hatred is deeply embedded in the collective conscience of the descendants of Esau and especially concentrated in the descendants of Amalek. As we will see later, the nation of Amalek is no longer identifiable, but his spirit lives on. To understand the relationship and rivalry between Jacob and Esau is understand the deeply-rooted anti-Semitism of those nations that emerged from Rome. No matter what happens, the descendants of Esau are going to hate the Jews.(4)

So we have a confrontation between Esau and Jacob. Jacob steals the blessing and then Esau shows up and finds out what happened. And patriarch Isaac realizes that he’s been tricked. He’s not angry, however, because he sees now that Jacob is capable of action and can carry on the mission.


2) For a deeper understanding of this story as-well-as Isaac’s perception of his two sons, see: Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch’s commentary on Genesis chap.27.
3) See: Rashi on Genesis 33:4
4) This of course helps us understand why the enlightened Europe of the mid 20th century could explode into such deep and violent antisemtism during the Holocaust. This doesn’t mean that everyone who comes from a Western country is an antisemite. Clearly this is not the case. Most people today are a mish mash of many ancient races.

[muman613]

Ok... The last comment on 'Essau Hates Yaakov' for the time being...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/solomon/haftara/archives/vayish73.htm

D'var Torah

The words of G-d's wrath conveyed by Obadiah are related to Esau, the ancestral father of Edom. However, in the Torah narrative, Esau in many instances appears to have been sinned against, rather than been a sinner. In a moment of personal weakness, he was beaten by Jacob to the birthright. He father was tricked in to giving the blessing meant for him to his brother. Although he intended to avenge Jacob, he did not actually carry out his plan. Backed by his army of four hundred men, he could easily have done so on meeting Jacob journeying home from Haran. Moreover, he allowed him to participate at his father's burial (Gen. 35:29). Indeed, the Torah forbids the Israelites to abhor Edom 'for he is your brother' (Deut. 23:8).

Thus Esau's sins seem to be largely in the future - those of his offspring, rather than his own. As Obadiah states: 'for the outrage to your brother Jacob, disgrace will engulf you, and you will perish for ever' (Obad. 1:10). The 'outrage' - from the context of the prophecy - is more than a millennium after his death. Why does Esau appear to be held to blame for the sins of his of progeny?

This question strengthened by the following. Ishmael was also regarded as wicked during his earlier life - to the degree that he was expelled from Abraham's household. Tradition (based on Isaiah 21:13-17) has it that his descendants were also to impose agony and suffering on the Jews. For when Nebuchadnezzer exiled the southern kingdom of Judah, some were received into their new surroundings of the descendants of Ishmael - the people of Arabia (c.f. Isaiah ibid.), who offered the thirsty Jews 'hospitality' in the form of goat skins filled not with drink, but air, which instantly rushed into their lungs and choked them - as well as tormented their thirst still further with salted meat and fish (Tanhuma: Yitro 2). True, the Rabbis have the tradition that Ishmael repented of his sins towards the end of his life (Gen. Rabba 38:12). Nevertheless, the text does not drag him into the attacks of his descendants on the Jews, as it does with Esau. Why is only Esau given the harsh treatment of being associated with the behavior of his descendants in the manner described in the text of the Haftara?

One suggestion is that there are different types of teshuva - repentance. Esau's self-restraint in accepting, rather than attacking Jacob (following Jacob's huge gift to him) was on impulse. The Midrash (Sifri: Behaalotcha 69) quotes R. Shimon bar Yochai who said, 'even though it is an immutable rule that Esau hates Jacob, at that moment his feelings of mercy were aroused'. Indeed, much of Esau's conduct appears from the text to be on whim. Examples include his readiness, in his hunger, to exchange a bowl of soup with lentils for his future role of being the heir and director of the Patriarchal traditions, and his sudden resolve to kill Jacob because he received the blessing meant for Esau himself.

So his momentary acceptance of Esau to accept Jacob on his return from Laban, and his later allowing him to take part at his father's burial, may be seen as good deeds done on impulse. They do not contradict the fundamental elements in his character, or the Rabbinical tradition that 'it is an immutable rule that Esau hates Jacob'. Esau's momentary repentance was teshuva of sorts, but not real teshuva. There was no fundamental change in his character or attitudes. That may well explain why, in contrast to Ishmael, there is no Rabbinical tradition that Esau repented. And for that reason, the violence of his descendants against those of Jacob is linked with him.

Ishmael, on the other hand is recorded (supra) to have repented. The very fact that one of the Rabbis of the Mishna - R. Ishmael - is named after him, testifies to the power of that tradition. True teshuva is not a single good deed, but a fundamental change in personal character. That is for what ask G-d's help to work towards daily in the Amida. That would explain why there is a tradition that Ishmael repented, but no tradition that Esau did the same thing. And because Ishmael intrinsically improved himself for the good, he is not associated with the sins of his descendants.

We learn from here the value of teshuva sheleima - perfect repentance. On Yom Kippur we change our conduct to suit the day, and may well, on inclination, make new resolutions. The true test of the value of those changes is whether we maintain them and build on them during the year… Thus we may be worthy of being part of the process of the last words of the Haftara… 'the Kingdom will be G-d's' (Obad. 1:21).