Author Topic: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?  (Read 3343 times)

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Offline kyel

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Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« on: December 19, 2013, 04:00:02 AM »
I was just wondering if the thought that there should be torture permitted for proved serial killers, murderers, or child kidnappers or child rapists is against the Torah. I have heard that public shaming in the Bible such as stoning or executions is humbling for the soul.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 10:44:37 AM »
I think its allowed and in some cases encouraged (depending on the case) in order to strike fear on the sinners soo they don't do the crimes this murderer did. (I will B"H bring you source from Rambam later).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 12:51:12 PM »
I am inclined to believe that Jewish law would forbid 'Torture' as it is a desecration of the human body.

Also a murderer does not need to confess to be put to death. By the word of two witnesses can a murderer be executed.

A hanged man's body cannot be left on the gallows overnight.

Why would anyone want to torture a convict? The purpose of justice is not revenge or any personal gain. The purpose of justice is to glorify the name of Hashem, our G-d...

Also I have never heard that the Torah permits 'Shaming' of individuals. Surely you mean that execution is good for the soul of a sinner (This is learned from the Talmud).

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 12:55:32 PM »
A general discussion of the Jewish view of 'torture'...

http://www.aish.com/ci/be/48914707.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 12:58:55 PM »
Most discussions of Torture revolve around the 'ticking timebomb' scenario (A terrorist knows about a bomb and can he be tortured to save human life)...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 01:02:07 PM »
A lengthy discussion on using torture to extract 'confessions'...


http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/crimconfess.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline kyel

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 02:43:16 PM »
I am inclined to believe that Jewish law would forbid 'Torture' as it is a desecration of the human body.

Also a murderer does not need to confess to be put to death. By the word of two witnesses can a murderer be executed.

A hanged man's body cannot be left on the gallows overnight.

Why would anyone want to torture a convict? The purpose of justice is not revenge or any personal gain. The purpose of justice is to glorify the name of Hashem, our G-d...

Also I have never heard that the Torah permits 'Shaming' of individuals. Surely you mean that execution is good for the soul of a sinner (This is learned from the Talmud).

I think the word choice may have been a bit off but yes that is what I meant that execution helps the soul. I believe that doing public executions may be useful in making sure that others do not commit the same crime but of course our society is to sensitive for this. Thanks for the links!

Offline muman613

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 05:13:51 PM »
I think the word choice may have been a bit off but yes that is what I meant that execution helps the soul. I believe that doing public executions may be useful in making sure that others do not commit the same crime but of course our society is to sensitive for this. Thanks for the links!

I derive my view based on the mitzvah (commandment) to kill the 'rebellious son'. There is a commandment in the Torah (which according to our sages has never been carried out) that a son (of a certain age) who rebels (does not hear his mother or father) by being gluttonous in food and drink is commanded to be put to death.

The sages explain that this command is given because the soul of the rebelious son, if not executed, would go on to commit more heinous crimes (such as rape and murder)...

My next post will be some articles which discuss this command:
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 05:16:10 PM »
http://ravkooktorah.org/KITEZE63.htm

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/oai/48966126.html

Ki Tetzei(Deuteronomy 21:10-25:19)
Fundamentals of Education

"When a man has a wayward, rebellious son, who does not obey his father and mother, they shall have him flogged. If he still does not listen to them... [the parents] must declare to the elders of his city, 'Our son is wayward and rebellious. He does not listen to us, and is an (exceptional) glutton and drunkard.' "(Deut. 21:18)

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 71a) says that there never was a rebellious son executed by the court. The topic was recorded in the Torah in order to learn and receive reward. But even if there never was a rebellious son, we can learn a great deal about raising children from a careful study of the Torah's description of the rebellious son. By studying the factors that help create a son so tainted that it is a kindness to kill him while he is still young and has not yet committed all the heinous crimes he otherwise would, we can learn to do the opposite with our own children.

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FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS

The Torah describes the rebellious son as not heeding the voice (kol) of his father and mother. Maharal points out that a kol denotes a voice or noise, something not necessarily intelligible. The rebellious son listens to his parents when their words make sense to him, but when their directives are not understood by him, he ignores them.

A child must be taught to rely on his parents' instructions and trust in their desire and ability to guide him on the proper path, even though he may not understand or grasp the wisdom of their directions. Though a parent should try to explain to the child the reasons for his directions and instructions, the child must be taught that in the end whether he understands or not, he must accept his parents' authority.

The Talmud learns from the phrase, "he does not listen to our voices," that to be deemed a rebellious son, both parents must have similar voices. Both parents' guidance must reflect the same values, and they must be consistent in their instruction. If the parents do not speak with one voice, their child cannot be deemed rebellious, because the blame for his rebellious behavior is not his alone.

Further, the parents must point at their son and say, "this son of ours." If the parents are blind and thus incapable of pointing him out, the son cannot be deemed a rebellious son. The requirement that the parents be able to see hints to the necessity of parents viewing each child as an individual, with unique gifts and needs, who must be educated according to his individual personality. If parents are blind to the child's individuality and educate him according to a predetermined formula, the child can also not be fully blamed.

SPIRITUAL STATUS

To be classified as a rebellious son, he must steal money from his parents to eat and drink like a glutton. This conduct shows, says Ibn Ezra, a distorted outlook. The glutton makes the pleasures of this world his only goal rather than seeing this world as the place to prepare for eternal spiritual life. The meat and wine he consumed could have been fully kosher. It is not enough to teach a child that he may eat only kosher food. He must also understand why, so that he does not become a Jew in form but not in substance.

The Talmud explains that the rebellious son is killed now, because if allowed to continue on the same path he will eventually become a robber and murderer. He is killed for his own benefit so that he doesn't lose his portion in the World to Come.

From this we learn the most important lesson of child-rearing. A parent must focus on the soul of his child and his eternal status, even more intensely that his physical well-being. What parent would think of exposing his child to even a slight chance of catching a serious communicable disease? How much more so should a parent protect his child from an environment that might exert negative spiritual influences. If we fret over our child's ability to earn a living, how much more so should we be concerned that he or she grow to be a successful Jew.

We should remember in Elul that there is no greater merit for the Day of Judgment than having raised a child properly. The Zohar teaches that when an individual appears before the Heavenly Court, after 120 years, God inquires if he educated his children properly. If the answer is affirmative, God refuses to accept any more testimony against him, for the merit of guiding his children properly overshadows everything else.
May we learn the deep lessons contained in the Torah's discussion of the rebellious son, so that we merit to raise children fully occupied in Torah and mitzvot.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 05:23:18 PM »
http://www.torah.org/learning/olas-shabbos/5758/kisetze.html

Ki Setze
Rabbi Eliyahu Hoffmann

The Wayward Son - What Can He Teach Us?

One of the most widely discussed (and perhaps misunderstood) sections of this week's Sidrah is the halacha (law) of the "Ben Sorer u-Moreh," the wayward and rebellious son. I once heard a secular Jew (who was evidently feeling some guilt about his lack of Torah observance) justifying himself by quoting the law of the Ben Sorer u- Moreh, who is put to death because of his rebelliousness. Because he, "does not hearken to the voice of his father and mother, and they discipline him, but he does not hearken to them (21:18)." (I fear that were we to take this description as literally as had this misinformed Jew, most of today's children would fall into this category!) "Imagine!" he wondered. "Put to death because of a little rebelliousness and disobedience!"

While it is beyond the scope of this short dvar Torah to delve into all the halachik intricacies of the Ben Sorer u-Moreh, we must at the very least know that the issues here are far more complicated than they first appear. Firstly, as the Talmud (Sanhedrin 72a) points out, the wayward and rebellious son is put to death not because of what he *has done*, but because of what he *will eventually do*. His behaviour is such that it is evident that he will with time degenerate into a repulsive person, guilty of the most serious crimes, including murder. "Let him die innocent, and let him not die guilty."

Secondly, so many detailed requirements are derived exegetically from this passage that it is virtually impossible for such a case to ever occur. Indeed, the Talmud (ibid. 71a) states that there never has been and never will be a "qualified" Ben Sorer u-Moreh. So why bother learning about him? Answers the Talmud: "Study (Torah - even its obscure sections), and you will receive reward." This "reward" can be understood simply as the Heavenly reward every Jew will eventually receive for the hours he has invested in limud ha-Torah (Torah study). Perhaps, however, we can interpret that the "reward" also refers to the deep understanding of chinuch (childhood education) which can be gained by thoroughly studying the laws of the wayward son. Hidden beneath the surface, many insightful lessons can be found to aid Jewish parents in ensuring that they do not raise their own "Ben Sorer u-Moreh."

The wayward child is punished because, "he does not hearken to the voice of his father and the voice of his mother." Shlomo haMelech says in Mishlei (22:15), "Carelessness is bound to the heart of the youth - the 'staff of rebuke' will remove it from him." Often parents refrain from rebuking their children, even when they know their child has done something wrong. True, it's wrong to constantly criticize and be negative, but a bit of well placed rebuke is a necessary part of chinuch. Especially, we must remember that part of education is to teach children the laws of derech eretz (proper conduct): to respect their parents, teachers and elders. The Ben Sorer u-Moreh "never heard the voice of his father and mother," rebuking him, and admonishing him for something he did wrong.

The Gemara (ibid.) derives from these words ("he does not hearken to our voice") that if one of the parents were deaf, the son can not become a Ben Sorer u-Moreh. This is difficult to understand: The words "he does not hearken" refer to the son, not the parents.

If, however, explains Mayana shel Torah, the parents turn a "deaf ear" to their own mussar - i.e. they chastise and criticize their son, yet they don't "practice what they preach", then their words will surely fail to make any lasting impression. To make use of the overused yet poignant example; it is comical to see a father interrupting his own shmooze to snap his fingers at his son to "get davening (praying) and stop fooling around."

Rabbi Peysach Krohn tells the story (and this story also applies to last week's dvar Torah on truthfulness) of the girl who, having forgotten to do her homework, comes to her mother just before leaving to school and asks her to sign the homework sheet anyway. "But, sweetheart, I can't do that," protests the mother. "That would be lying."

"Well," says the daughter, "it wouldn't really be lying. I wanted to do the homework, I just forgot. When you sign the sheet, you could have in mind that what you really mean is that I *wanted* to do the homework."

"But sweetheart, that's still lying. You didn't do the homework."

"But what about the time we were crossing over the border, and the customs man asked Tatty if we had bought anything, and our trunk was all full of stuff, and Tatty said, 'No.' And you told me that what he really meant is that, 'No, we don't have anything illegal.' Wasn't that also lying..." As the cliche goes, children do as we do, not as we say.

In a similar vein, the Darchei Teshuva explains in Tiferes Banim (I have not seen this inside, and thus cannot give you a page reference), "he does not hearken to the voice of his father and the voice of his mother," i.e. the wayward and rebellious son became this way because he never heard the voice of his father learning Torah. And he never heard the voice of his mother praying or saying Tehillim. When daddy came home from work, all he was interested in was the newspaper and his supper. Mommy preferred spending her spare time hearing the latest gossip rather than praying that her children should grow up to be talmidei chachamim (Torah scholars) and yirei shamayim (fearers of Heaven).

If we want children to grow up with love of the Torah, we must ourselves love the Torah, and show this to them. Imagine if Tatty never sat down to supper before learning at least a few minutes of Torah - what kind of impression would this make on the children! (I heard this example from Rav Yaakov Chanun, an educator from Eretz Yisrael.)

Perhaps it is not entirely by coincidence that the rebellious son is called Ben Sorer u-Moreh. Moreh means rebellious, but it also means teacher. There is a lot for parents to learn from the never-to-be case of the Ben Sorer u-Moreh. We have just barely scraped the surface. Study, and you will receive reward.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Is Torture Permissible For Murderers?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 06:18:51 PM »
Also check the book of Judges I believe chapter 2 (beginning of) with Adonei Bezek BeBezek and what they Jews did to this guy who would cut off people's fingers (feet and toes) because that is what he did to others it was done to him AND to strike fear unto other sinners to know that their is justice and for what they do now they will have a price to pay once we get them.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.