Author Topic: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?  (Read 4154 times)

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Offline edu

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There are some newspaper reports that claim Sharon's mother wasn't Jewish therefore making Sharon also halachicly not Jewish.
How solid are these accusations?
If he was Jewish there is one set of lessons to be learned about his life and if he wasn't there is another set of lessons to be made. Also the prohibition of Lo Tichanem would start kicking in if he wasn't Jewish, which would have implications for halacha even after his death.
For example, one Kahanist Rabbi based on Yerushalmi 1:9 would not allow a person to rent out property to non-Jews in the land of Israel for burial purposes because of the prohibition of lo tichanem.
There also would be a problem (according to responsa Yachel Yisrael siman 85) under most situations to bury the guy next to his Jewish wife even if we ignore the general issue of burying Gentiles in the land of Israel.
It would also make some people who want to give Sharon a "Tinoke Shenishba" status and overlook many of his bad deeds, more cautious about praising the guy.
This is going under the assumption that the limitations of praising gentiles who lack the status of "Ger Toshav",  (which is one element of lo tichanem) would apply even after death.
It makes sense that this would be true although I must admit I have not yet seen someone (so far) address this element of lo tichanem. I must stress I have not thoroughly examined the issue, so it is quite possible someone has spoken about it.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 12:18:54 PM »
Burying him next to his wife is the least of the issues. Actually they both are being (was and are) being buried next to Noam Federman's property in the Sinai which is actually illegal to being buried their. Ooh the irony of when the court will remove their bodies from that place (on his ranch).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2014, 12:20:31 PM »
Also about either being or not being a true convert- he would not have been allowed to be in that position in power. EVEN if it was a true conversion, one has to have a born father and mother in order to occupy the highest position in office (technically the Melech) but still this is a serious position with a lot of power and decision making.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Online Zelhar

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 03:57:03 PM »
Does it matter?

Offline Sveta

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2014, 12:57:15 AM »
Zelhar is right, does it matter? What matters is that Sharon was an evil man and Hashem has taken him away.

I don't know if he was Jewish or not. From my understanding many years ago the Subbotnik Jews were sincere gerim who were persecuted for their choosing to be Jewish. Today, they are or are not accepted as Jews or have a safek status. Are we going to say that if (A) does a conversion- A's descendants, B, C, D, and E years later are suddenly not Jewish anymore? It is a very hard situation to determine. I think that is where the Chief Rabbinate steps in to determine what Subbotniks are and are not. Some are regarded as Jewish, some are not. As far as I understand there has been no official decree that says that Subbotnik Jews are not Jews. It is more on a case by case basis. If they go to the rabbinate and are told they are not Jews, then they would convert. The problem is, I am not sure how Halachich was the Subbotnik conversion 200 years ago. But let's say that they did do a Halachic conversion and have keen records and have not intermarried.... should we say they're not real Jews? If the Subbotniks did not do a Halachic conversion, then obviously they are not Jews.

Anyways, I highly doubt that Sharon would have cared enough to do a conversion. And even if he had done a conversion he would have been allowed to rule in a position of authority because the country of Israel would follow secular laws. And there are cases that a ger tzeddek who has a Jewish father CAN be in a position of authority. Such as the Chief Rabbi of the Czech Republic. He did a conversion because his mother was not Jewish but his father was. From my understanding, the rules are different for gerim whose fathers are Jewish. This is why this Chief Rabbi was able to get to that position. Had both his parents been non-Jews and he did giyur, then he could not have attained the position of Chief Rabbi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karol_Sidon

Maybe it would apply to a ger tzeddek who would be in government in Israel.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2014, 02:03:28 AM »
Israeliheart- I don't remember exactly but I think that for a Melech or top person/authority it was both parents that need to be Jewish. Check in Or Harayon Rav Kahane discusses different positions of authority and such.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Sveta

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2014, 02:17:27 AM »
Ok, good point. I'll check it out.

So Chief Rabbi ger tzeddek son of a Jewish man is ok. But not other positions.

I know a king can definately not be a ger tzeddek but I'm unsure of the other positions. Anyways, I'll check it out, than you! 

Offline edu

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2014, 03:12:08 AM »
For the benefit of Hebrew speaking scholars reading this forum here is the exact source on the prohibition to rent property for burial of a goy in the land of Israel (according to the Yerushalmi, and my Kahanist Rabbi)
תלמוד ירושלמי מסכת עבודה זרה פרק א דף מ טור א /ה"ט

הורי רבי יוסי בי רבי בון שאסור להשכיר להן קבורה בארץ ישראל על שם לא תתן להם חניה בארץ

Offline edu

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 02:40:30 AM »
The following is from a Wikipedia Article on the Golden Gate in Jerusalem
Quote
The Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent sealed off the Golden Gate in 1541. While this may have been purely for defensive reasons, in Jewish tradition this is the gate through which the Messiah will enter Jerusalem, and it is suggested that Suleiman the Magnificent sealed off the Golden Gate to prevent the Messiah's entrance.[citation needed] The Ottomans also built a cemetery in front of the gate, in the belief that the precursor to the Messiah, Elijah, would not be able to pass through the Golden Gate and thus the Messiah would not come.
I don't believe it is a messianic requirement to enter Jerusalem specifically through the Golden Gate, although I have no objection if he would do it.
Also regarding the graves that were put to stop Eliyahu (Elijah) (according to those views that he is a Cohen) even though there are various ways to take care of this problem, the problem will not even get off the ground when we have true Torah-True Leadership because they will follow the commandment to remove Goyish Graveyards from the area.
Final point: I personally hold by the view that Eliyahu is not a Cohen

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2014, 11:44:16 PM »
Burying him next to his wife is the least of the issues. Actually they both are being (was and are) being buried next to Noam Federman's property in the Sinai which is actually illegal to being buried their. Ooh the irony of when the court will remove their bodies from that place (on his ranch).


Federman has land in the Sinai? Didn't Sharon and the peanut farmer destroy all Jewish property in the Sinai in 1982? I thought Federman has a ranch near Hebron.


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 11:11:11 AM »


Federman has land in the Sinai? Didn't Sharon and the peanut farmer destroy all Jewish property in the Sinai in 1982? I thought Federman has a ranch near Hebron.

 I meant in the Negev.

http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Right-wing-activist-asks-health-minister-not-to-bury-Sharon-on-his-ranch-337166
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Does Anyone have solid halachic proof if Sharon was a Jew or a Gentile?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 08:02:00 PM »
I thought Federman's property is in Judea, not the Negev.