Author Topic: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?  (Read 4538 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2014, 07:14:58 PM »
Aliyah5 is clearly J4J. This is a common missionary practice they pretend to be raised Orthodox, or baalei teshuva who have seen the truth of Jesus. Its just to trick Jews into listening to their poison. ::)

I agree... I plan to ignore this troll...

It is obvious to me that this troll has never in its life read the Torah. It is an ignoramus and a heretic..


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2014, 07:18:07 PM »
BTW, White Israelite.... Good work...

For the most part I don't engage these imbeciles in debate. They are making stuff up as they go along and it is obvious there is no theological support for their positions.

Bottom line: Their 'messiah' is not our long awaited Moshiach, nor is he anything close to divine...

Quote

Psalm 146

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3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his dust; in that very day his thoughts perish.
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Numbers 23:19

19. God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline White Israelite

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 09:11:56 PM »
I don't believe all former j4j are missionaries but they are suspect, usually most don't admit it but will pretend to be Jewish and there's been recorded cases of those deliberately converting to orthodox to make aliyah or learn about Judaism to preach their Christian beliefs.

Some Jews sadly get sucked into it and have left but a true bsal teshuva is real repentance, leaving Christianity and for the Jew to reject idol worship of Jesus and to become a full fledged Jew again by immersing in mikveh. This is a key differenxe . clearly our member here aliyah prefers Israel be like a Christian nation.

Aliyah if Israel were like a christian nation, it would be in sin because its idol worship and it turns Jews away from Torah, in fact God teaches we are held accountable for our sins and no man can die for anothers sins.

Ezekiel 18:20 talks about this.

I don't know if aliyah is a missionary or not so I think until he has shown this we should see how honest he is to want to be Jewish. True repentance must be the acceptance of hashem and the 613 mitzvahs, God says to have no Gods before him. If someone is trapped in Christianity or missionary activity I urge you to stop and aknowlege this sin, it is never to late to come back to God, the Israelites worshipped the golden calf and they were to be put to death, sometimes things in Judaism may not make sense if you didn't grow up in it, but there are things that can be explained and the missionaries have a way of hooking in our people by mistranslating and deceiving in jewish scriptures.its our duty as Jews to help them in the right direction being a chabad, reading scriptures, directing to Jews for Judaism for a synagogue who can help Jews who are trapped.

Offline Every Jew AK47

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 09:44:52 PM »
Actually you are wrong,Father Son & Ghost=Vishnu,Siva,Krishna.
I fail to see the difference.
Christianity is closer to Hinduism than to Judaism because of the trinity.

Actually...  Christianity is not closer to Hinduism at all.. It is a religion  that was started by Greeks, Romans and Hellenist Jews living in the Middle East and the Mediterranean.   It was adopted later by Romans and Byzantines, as well spread to Europe.   In fact, Christianity is a Greek Hellenist religion that mixes some Judaic values with native European religions, which were centered around deities such as Osiris, Dionysus, Tammuz, Ishtar (Easter), Isis,  Olympian/Greek dieties (Zeus, etc), Avodah Zara (Persian Fire g-d) and Mithra in addition to various other g-ds of ancient Europe and the Middle East, Asia.   

Think about it, Christians honor the birth of their g-d, whose real name is Eyezeus Christos on December 25th.  There is nothing in Hindu theology like this, but December 25th actually is the birth date of the Sun g-d of Rome.  If you look at ancient pictures of Orthodox Christianity and Catholics, you will see reminiscent of a sun halo around Eyezeus (Jesus) and his Mother Mary , who also many believe could be representative of Ishtar (Easter) or Isis (g_ddess of moterhood, fertility).  There is no mystery here when you also see that Christian churches believe their g-d that they worship on "Sun"day is resurrected on the same day as the goddess, aka Queen Ishtar/Easter's fertility ritual (end of March/beginning of April).   Obviously, Christianity is an incorporation with Hellenist culture and traditional European religions.

This is not bad at all, as Christians are good people as whole..  Now, if Christian go around calling themselves Jews, that is bad, as their religion has nothing to do with traditional Judaism.  Even, if the founders of the religion were Jewish, there was a great division between traditional Jewish followers and Hellenized Jews, as Hellenized Jews would follow European culture, traditions and worship foreign deities which is forbidden for any practicing Jew.  Therefore, the Hellenists are really a race and people unto themselves.   

The concept of a g-d man is very common in Ancient Europe and the Romans, Greeks, Anglosaxons, Nordic people's, as well as many in the Middle East, Babylonia were worshippers of g-d men, such as Dionysus , Tammuz, Mithra..   Essentially Eyesus Christos is a manifestation of the g-d men that Europeans have worshipped for 1000s of years.  He is in effect their g-d.

Jews worship One G-d, Hashem and he is not a man, but man is made in his image, not vice versa, as with Eyezeus.. Hashem is G-d of heavens and earth and a Moshiach (Messiah) will be sent to earth one day , who is a man , flesh and blood and be a Saviour to his people and bring peace to the world and rule in Jerusalem.  The concept of Jewish Moshiach is completely different from anything in Roman-Greco Christianity, where the Saviour is a g-d man who is G-d incarnate, which is synonymous with the prophesies of many traditional European religions.  Many of the original Church fathers were converts from many of these various ancient European/Middle Eastern religions before becoming Christian.

We should respect Christians and their religion and they should respect ours.  If you read history of both Judaism and Christianity, it can dissolve any reservations both JEws and Christians may have of each other..  Also, it will make sense to see the differences between the two religions and how a Jew cannot be a Christian and a Christian cannot be a Jew.  However, both Jewish and Christians share similar values and both have knowledge and pay respect to Moses (know the 10 Commandment principles) and Jewish prophets.  The Hellenist Jews who were involved with the insurrection of Christianity did incorporate some of the Judaic values to the Christian religion.  This is a wonderful thing and is another reason why Jews and Christians can form strong bonds.   Also, this was a reason why Jews and Zoroastrians could also form such bonds.  At one times the Zoroastrians were the greatest allies the Jewish people could have.. Think back to King Cyrus and Queen Esther.
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 09:53:29 PM »
Hosea chapter 4...

Hosea 9:3...

Jeremiah 31:9...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Aliyah5

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2014, 10:12:18 PM »
God is my judge and not you people.
I think muman is a good guy and I forgive you 100%.
Muman, may you be blessed with 10 healthy children in the land of Israel.
I'm not really into Jesus that much but I saw things that I thought were
far worse and far more insane in Israel than Jews who like Jesus and follow his teachings. My interest is mainly in discerning the truth about who the real messiah is and at the conclusion of my spiritual journey, I decided that no one could do it and that Jesus may have been the one even if there are debates on both sides. If that is heresy then guilty as charged. I simply don't know the answer.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2014, 10:22:56 PM »
God is my judge and not you people.
I think muman is a good guy and I forgive you 100%.
Muman, may you be blessed with 10 healthy children in the land of Israel.
I'm not really into Jesus that much but I saw things that I thought were
far worse and far more insane in Israel than Jews who like Jesus and follow his teachings. My interest is mainly in discerning the truth about who the real messiah is and at the conclusion of my spiritual journey, I decided that no one could do it and that Jesus may have been the one even if there are debates on both sides. If that is heresy then guilty as charged. I simply don't know the answer.
No one is attacking Muman ass hole,  you are an instigator! Also, I love Chassidim teachings... And Chabad and Breslov, so take your hate elsewhere!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline kyel

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2014, 10:32:00 PM »
Actually you are wrong,Father Son & Ghost=Vishnu,Siva,Krishna.
I fail to see the difference.
Christianity is closer to Hinduism than to Judaism because of the trinity.

I think Catholicism seems extremely close to Hinduism. Multiple gods as their main gd and then a pantheon of demigods represented as Saints who have special powers. Ironically worship of the "Queen of Heaven" was prohibited in the OT but catholics have no problem naming their churches that.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2014, 11:18:11 PM »
God is my judge and not you people.
I think muman is a good guy and I forgive you 100%.
Muman, may you be blessed with 10 healthy children in the land of Israel.
I'm not really into Jesus that much but I saw things that I thought were
far worse and far more insane in Israel than Jews who like Jesus and follow his teachings. My interest is mainly in discerning the truth about who the real messiah is and at the conclusion of my spiritual journey, I decided that no one could do it and that Jesus may have been the one even if there are debates on both sides. If that is heresy then guilty as charged. I simply don't know the answer.

Muman is a great man, I'm glad to see you taking the high road. Anyways, don't jump to such big questions. Let's start with a simple one: Torah says Moshiah rebuilds the third and final temple, and the Catholic testament says that the son of the devil rebuilds it. Which one is wrong, Torah, or "part 2" to Torah?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Aliyah5

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2014, 03:16:52 AM »
I dunno but if we do like I suggested and put his name on the cornerstone than they would have to admit he was the devil  :laugh:  Contrary to what some people may think I am a fairly serious scholar who has studied warfare, religion, history, land conquest and martial arts on and off for about 8 yrs with an ideological aim towards rebuilding the 3rd temple. I am not a peacenic turn the other cheek type (at least not with non-Jews) but after seeing people and personalities in Israel, I think perhaps a reasonable compromise for the temple and greater Israel borders would be a creed something like 'Jesus is the messiah, there is no palestine, and every inch of land between the nile and the euphrates belongs to the Jewish people." Even Solomon said there is wisdom in compromise. Even if many jews don't really believe Jesus is the messiah and keep all of the laws and mitzvot the creed allows us to take control and use the name of the most famous Israelite for our own national purposes rather than it being used against us. Foreigners who agree to the land boundaries could live in the land of Israel. Zealots want a gung-ho land expansionist leader. As far as I'm concerned, Christianity has already done most of the heavy lifting for us. All of the surrounding countries have christian populations that can be used to advance our political, geographical aims, perhaps within the most peaceful context possible. There are even probably a fair amount of arabs who would want to be baptized. I am simply being philosophical in looking for ways to solve the current religious political dilemma as regards to the temple and land borders. I don't think any of the religious philosophers of the day go even close to far enough in reclaiming Jesus. In my opinion, having Jesus proclaimed as the messiah of Israel and having the temple built on his name could actually be one of the coolest things to ever happen to Israel. It is perhaps counter intuitive, but most solutions to grand problems are.


Offline muman613

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2014, 03:30:07 AM »
I dunno but if we do like I suggested and put his name on the cornerstone than they would have to admit he was the devil  :laugh:  Contrary to what some people may think I am a fairly serious scholar who has studied warfare, religion, history, land conquest and martial arts on and off for about 8 yrs with an ideological aim towards rebuilding the 3rd temple. I am not a peacenic turn the other cheek type (at least not with non-Jews) but after seeing people and personalities in Israel, I think perhaps a reasonable compromise for the temple and greater Israel borders would be a creed something like 'Jesus is the messiah, there is no palestine, and every inch of land between the nile and the euphrates belongs to the Jewish people." Even Solomon said there is wisdom in compromise. Even if many jews don't really believe Jesus is the messiah and keep all of the laws and mitzvot the creed allows us to take control and use the name of the most famous Israelite for our own national purposes rather than it being used against us. Foreigners who agree to the land boundaries could live in the land of Israel. Zealots want a gung-ho land expansionist leader. As far as I'm concerned, Christianity has already done most of the heavy lifting for us. All of the surrounding countries have christian populations that can be used to advance our political, geographical aims, perhaps within the most peaceful context possible. There are even probably a fair amount of arabs who would want to be baptized. I am simply being philosophical in looking for ways to solve the current religious political dilemma as regards to the temple and land borders. I don't think any of the religious philosophers of the day go even close to far enough in reclaiming Jesus. In my opinion, having Jesus proclaimed as the messiah of Israel and having the temple built on his name could actually be one of the coolest things to ever happen to Israel. It is perhaps counter intuitive, but most solutions to grand problems are.

Shame, Shame, Shame on you...

It does not matter what the nations of the world believe or do not believe. You are one of those who are always concerned with what the goyim think. Have you ever studied Torah? Do you know that the way things are happening is virtually the living words of Hashem? I think you are a person of little faith, or are continuing to try to deceive us.

Jews are supposed to be a Holy nation, a nation of priests. We do not need to appeal to the worshipers of other gods in order to fulfill the will of the One G-d of Israel.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2014, 03:32:20 AM »
I really think this guy is a messianic... and that is sad.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Aliyah5

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2014, 05:28:26 AM »
Shame, Shame, Shame on you...

It does not matter what the nations of the world believe or do not believe. You are one of those who are always concerned with what the goyim think. Have you ever studied Torah? Do you know that the way things are happening is virtually the living words of Hashem? I think you are a person of little faith, or are continuing to try to deceive us.

Jews are supposed to be a Holy nation, a nation of priests. We do not need to appeal to the worshipers of other gods in order to fulfill the will of the One G-d of Israel.


I have studied the Torah and I can see that it is the living word of God unfolding.

All I can say is, the more I think about my life and my experience in Israel the fewer problems I have with teachings of Jesus.

As for worrying what the goyim will think, I'm sorry, I kind of have to as they are married into my family. It is difficult to be a hardcore uncompromising Israeli when you have intermarried family overseas. You can be single guy in his 50's like chaim and call every wealthy successful Jew who is intermarried a self hating kike cockroach but it is a reality in the Jewish world and I don't think it is fair to condemn them like that... It is also hard to say I don't care what the goyim think if you ever want to travel the world which I think a lot of Israelis now and in the future generations aspire to do.



Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2014, 05:58:50 AM »


I have studied the Torah and I can see that it is the living word of God unfolding.

All I can say is, the more I think about my life and my experience in Israel the fewer problems I have with teachings of Jesus.

As for worrying what the goyim will think, I'm sorry, I kind of have to as they are married into my family. It is difficult to be a hardcore uncompromising Israeli when you have intermarried family overseas. You can be single guy in his 50's like chaim and call every wealthy successful Jew who is intermarried a self hating kike cockroach but it is a reality in the Jewish world and I don't think it is fair to condemn them like that... It is also hard to say I don't care what the goyim think if you ever want to travel the world which I think a lot of Israelis now and in the future generations aspire to do.

בס''ד

Who do you think you're kidding? You came on this forum to missionize. If your religious beliefs are the truth, then why do you have to resort to deception and trickery? Why do you have to lie and pretend that you have another motive for joining? This is what "Jews" for Jesus consistently do. I know many evangelical Christians who find their tactics to be very offensive. You're banned.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2014, 06:20:46 AM »
It was fun while it lasted. Don't understand why people were nice to this j for j missionary.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline ChabadKahanist

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2014, 09:52:46 AM »
בס''ד

Who do you think you're kidding? You came on this forum to missionize. If your religious beliefs are the truth, then why do you have to resort to deception and trickery? Why do you have to lie and pretend that you have another motive for joining? This is what "Jews" for Jesus consistently do. I know many evangelical Christians who find their tactics to be very offensive. You're banned.
I agree with you Chaim!!!!!!

Offline White Israelite

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2014, 01:04:35 PM »
We tried to be civil with him and help him to bring him back to judaism but now I seriously doubt he's a Jew, or even in israel. The very fact I pointed out that jews don't need Jesus and showed evidence in the Tanakh that forgiveness of sins comes from repentance only to God and there is no blood required shows that guy was a missionary.

Anyways, if anyone else ever has doubts or is approached by a missionary I advise you to watch these videos




Offline Israel Chai

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2014, 01:20:07 PM »


I have studied the Torah and I can see that it is the living word of God unfolding.

All I can say is, the more I think about my life and my experience in Israel the fewer problems I have with teachings of Jesus.

As for worrying what the goyim will think, I'm sorry, I kind of have to as they are married into my family. It is difficult to be a hardcore uncompromising Israeli when you have intermarried family overseas. You can be single guy in his 50's like chaim and call every wealthy successful Jew who is intermarried a self hating kike cockroach but it is a reality in the Jewish world and I don't think it is fair to condemn them like that... It is also hard to say I don't care what the goyim think if you ever want to travel the world which I think a lot of Israelis now and in the future generations aspire to do.

Lol I bet he doesn't call converts to his double deform church goyim.
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Offline White Israelite

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2014, 01:29:25 PM »
Just out of curiosity, White Israelite, when exactly were you involved with Jews for Jesus?

Not jews for Jesus, they are a actual organization rather than a church, I fortunately never gave them a dime and have always been completely opposed to converting or missionizing to other jews.

Dan if you have a means I can contact you I can explain the situation, I've also explained it to Paulette and David as well. They've also been supportive of me

Offline White Israelite

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2014, 03:20:50 PM »
The reason I was wondering is because it sounds like you were involved with whatever Christian-related group or philosophy you belonged to while still a member of JTF.  And if we had our own section on this site to refute Christian doctrine as it applies to Jews, we could maybe have prevented this or reduce the cases of this happening.  I know we're mainly focused against people and ideologies that want to physically destroy Israel, which is important because this is the method of Amalek.  But I believe we should also combat the more insidious method of destroying Jews that involves confusing them about their own scriptures while love-bombing them to make you think they have your best interest at heart until you are assimilated.

It's really a long story, and I don't know if I can ever seek forgiveness from Hashem but I pray to God no other Jew ever strays from judaism because it is a lonely path.

I would hope that JTF would forgive me for any sins I have committed or idol worship, and most of all Hashem. I really want to be Jewish and live my life accordingly, I knew the last year or so that my heart wanted Torah and that something wasn't right in my life, I've cut off people and ignored them throughout the years because I figured if i tried to contact them, they would hate me anyways, but I prayed to Hashem and spoke with them, they were not as angry as I thought they would be and were very encouraging to help me on the right path to come back. I just don't know where to start, what to do, should I keep going to the chabad?

What can I do to make things right?

Offline muman613

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2014, 03:39:39 PM »
It's really a long story, and I don't know if I can ever seek forgiveness from Hashem but I pray to God no other Jew ever strays from judaism because it is a lonely path.

I would hope that JTF would forgive me for any sins I have committed or idol worship, and most of all Hashem. I really want to be Jewish and live my life accordingly, I knew the last year or so that my heart wanted Torah and that something wasn't right in my life, I've cut off people and ignored them throughout the years because I figured if i tried to contact them, they would hate me anyways, but I prayed to Hashem and spoke with them, they were not as angry as I thought they would be and were very encouraging to help me on the right path to come back. I just don't know where to start, what to do, should I keep going to the chabad?

What can I do to make things right?

You are doing it now... Find yourself a good Rabbi who you can trust, go to classes if you have the time and money, spend time each day studying Torah and set aside time to daven (we are supposed to Daven at least 3 times a day) and you will be on the way to repairing your transgressions.

If your family was not entirely Jewish (your mother was not a true convert) you should look into making an official conversion.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2014, 05:14:50 PM »
I post this here because it confronts a constant question that righteous believers always ask, why do the wicked seem to prosper and the righteous seem to suffer... It is a lesson from the oral tradition called Pirkie Avot (Wisdom/Ethics of the Fathers) which we are studying during the period known as the Omer.



http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/ch4-19.html

Does the World Exist?   

Chapter 4, Mishnah 19

"Rabbi Yannai said: It is not within our ability [to understand] neither the tranquility of the wicked nor the suffering of the righteous."

This week's mishna raises one of the classic, perennial questions of faith: Why do bad things happen to good people -- as well as vice versa.

I feel the greatest and most eloquent message here is the one which strikes us most immediately: our mishna does not even attempt an answer. As we know, there are several theological approaches to this -- and we will look at just a few below, but at times it is better not to even try. Whatever we say will not satisfy -- not the good person who suffers tragedy nor the believing soul who witnesses injustices daily. We will never truly do justice to G-d's wisdom and judgment, nor will we ever fully understand His will. And at times it is better to just admit our inability and remain silent.

My uncle, R. Arthur Hertzberg OBM, describes in his memoirs (A Jew in America, HarperCollins Publishers, 2002, pp. 210-12 & 456-7) his visit with the Belzer Rebbe in Israel in 1949. The Rebbe had lost his entire family and the vast majority of his adherents in the War, and was himself only miraculously whisked from death and brought to the Holy Land (a very exciting story in itself if any of you are familiar). My uncle attempted to engage him in conversation about his recent past, but the Rebbe refused to speak. He never attempted to intellectualize or to rationalize what had occurred to him or the rest of the Jewish people. But he did do one thing: he rebuilt. He spent the remainder of his life recreating much of what the Nazis had destroyed -- his Hassidic court, Torah schools, yeshivas, and more generally the Hassidic value system and way of life.

And this sometimes is not only the best but the only correct approach. As my uncle said to me on a different occasion, if we attempt to explain the Holocaust, it may not only shake our faith, it may destroy it entirely, G-d forbid. If we ask unanswerable questions, who knows what conclusions we will reach -- or how we will react to those conclusions? The Rebbe, however, took the only truly viable approach: he moved on. His faith was unshaken, even if his intellect was far from assuaged. And in his silence he was able to triumph where so many had failed.

The truth is, in many other places the Sages, as well as practically every thinker the Jewish nation has produced, do address this topic -- and many quite respectable answers are put forth. The Talmud (Brachos 7a) records that Moses himself asked G-d why do both the righteous and the wicked seem to sometimes have it good and sometimes bad. Moses' question was even more broad: The world does not seem to have any pattern to it. It is neither a pure reflection of truth nor of falsehood. He thus asked how are we to make sense of this world. How are we to relate to the events we witness, and recognize them as manifestations of G-d's providence?

To this, continues the Talmud, G-d responded -- an answer almost teasingly simple: A fully righteous person has it good both in this world and in the next. A good but not fully righteous person will have it good in the next world but not in this one. A fully wicked person will have it bad in both worlds. A not entirely wicked one will have it good in this world and bad in the next.

The commentators explain: A basically but not totally righteous person enjoys G-d's favor, so to speak. G-d has ample reward prepared for him or her in the World to Come -- the place of true reward. G-d, however, is exacting in His justice. No bad deed may go unpunished nor good deed unrewarded. Therefore, G-d "pays off" all the sins of the righteous person in this world -- the world of transience -- in order to reward him fully in the next. And conversely for the sinner who has performed a few good deeds. G-d will pay off his good deeds here so as to punish him fully when the true time of reckoning arrives. This considered, the justice we view in this world may actually be the *reverse* of the true justice which will ultimately be meted out.

Well, already a brief practical message for us. When G-d gives us challenges or afflicts us, we should never take it as a sign G-d doesn't *like* us. (Of course we must not stop there; we must be attuned to the warnings and messages G-d is sending us.) Conversely, if G-d seems to be pampering us too much, we might just begin to worry... But let's move on. So much more on this topic.

R. Eliyahu Dessler, of Russia, England, and later Israel, was one of the great thinkers of the previous generation. There are a number of concepts found in his writings which are germane to our discussion (Michtav Mai'Eliyahu, Vol. I pp. 18-21). There are other reasons why G-d must sometimes withhold true justice in this world. If sinners would always be punished -- and the wicked would generally be worse off in the world ("Mean guys finish last?" -- no, never heard that one), there would be little temptation to sin. The choice between good and evil would be too clear -- and not really a choice. Thus, to preserve free will, G-d allows evil to look enticing and available -- as if one can enjoy himself and get away with it. (By the way, you can't -- just in case you're not sure.) As R. Dessler puts it, G-d permits Satan to reward *his* servants in this world, for if not, Satan would basically be out of a job.

Another concept is also from R. Dessler -- but of course is found in many earlier sources. Suffering should not always be viewed as punishment. When G-d causes the righteous to suffer it is to spur them to spiritual growth. It directs them to improve and helps shake them out of their complacency. The Talmud similarly states, "One who sees suffering coming upon him should examine his deeds" (Brachos 5a).

The wicked, however, are much further from self-improvement. G-d does not "bother" with them so to speak -- doling out warnings to them. The evil person is deadened to such messages and will not hear them. G-d's relationship with such a person is far more distant. He does not intend to reward him in the next world, nor does He rebuke and chastise him in this one.

We have spent a few paragraphs discussing approaches and "answers". They are all valid and in fact quite instructive to the believing soul. But they detract from the message of the Sages here. The Sages at times propose solutions to this problem, but at the same time they state that it is unanswerable. For after all is said and done, there is still something just not answered, something profoundly dissatisfying: The world just does not make sense! We can explain it away -- it is full of evil and injustice because of x, y or z, but the world just doesn't seem *right*! Is not evil wrong? Can it be that we witness sin and corruption -- a terrorist attack -- without repercussion? Doesn't truth dictate that evil is wrong and self-destructive?

Now, if the world *seems* to be a place which permits evil and does not reward good, then it is not a reflection of truth -- and therefore not a reflection of G-d. It is instead a place of falsehood. And if so, this may be a strange way of asking it, but does the world really exist? How do we relate to the reality of this world -- in fact, how can we stand it -- if it is not a place of truth? If what *cannot* be appears to be, then the world is an illusion, a mirage of temporary falsehood. We're living a dream in which much of what surrounds us is not truly real. And if the world is an illusion, can we really feel a sense of reality within it? We may propose intellectual solutions to the existence and flourishing of evil, but on a very deep and profound level -- the very level of our sense of reality -- it should bother us -- even frighten us -- deeply.

To this our mishna responds with what seems a cop-out, but which is in truth a fundamental of Judaism: We Do Not Know! Admitting that we do not understand places a very different sense on our attitudes and expectations. Such an admission allows us to accept G-d's sovereignty over the world and our role within it. If we go through life feeling an urge to make sense of the inexplicable -- that nothing can be *wrong* in the world -- we will live with gnawing frustration and doubt -- doubts about ourselves, our mission, and G-d's creation. We will experience the sadness and resignation so well-expressed by King Solomon at the start of Ecclesiastes: "Futility of futilities! All is futile! What gain does man have in all his toil that he labors under the sun?" And further: "All comes from the dust, and all shall return to the dust" (3:20).

Admitting, however, that such issues are beyond our grasp restores them to G-d's domain -- where they belong. We accept that much of what occurs in this world is beyond our ken. We know G-d has a plan, He carefully directs the world, and our actions make a difference, but we do not even attempt to see the entire picture. Intellectually, we may attempt to explain the concealment of G-d's Hand and the world's lack of justice, but emotionally we will just have to continue to wait.

But wait for what? It is an equally fundamental principle of Judaism that the dilemma of a world without reason is not eternal. Yet another cornerstone of our faith is the belief in the ultimate arrival of the Messiah. When he arrives, he will not only right the wrongs of mankind and the Jewish people, but he will restore the world to truth. Peace and prosperity will be the lot of the servants of G-d. Evil will be banished; in fact will self-destruct. G-d will dwell among us and His Presence will be felt: truth and justice will prevail. At that time we will no longer live with questions, doubts and frustrations. The world *will* make sense, and will become the true reflection of G-d it was meant to be. May the suffering and doubts which are the fate of the Israel and mankind today be speedily and in our days transformed into truth, love and understanding. "And it will be on those days, the L-rd shall be one and His Name shall be one" (Zechariah 14:9).
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14