Jay Leno Compares Sharia Law

[nessuno]

to 1930s Berlin.  Joins Sultan of Brunei protest.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/05/06/Hello-Holocaust-Jay-Leno-Compares-Sharia-law-to-1930s-Berlin

Good for Jay Leno.  Why isn't the mainstream media covering this story?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What are they protesting against? The stoning of adulterers and homosexuals. For them this is repulsive and against their values. NOT against the other things in the Sharia.

[nessuno]

I don't want to see Sharia Law take a foothold in America.
I think it is a good sign that the Hollywood wackos are even talking about it.
When does Jay Leno ever take a stand on anything important?

[nessuno]

Look at AIG, they sell Sharia compliant policies.

AIG Bailout Promotes Shariah Law, Lawsuit Claims
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/12/22/aig-bailout-promotes-shariah-law-lawsuit-claims/

It is time for all people to wake up and speak up.

[muman613]

What is odd is that the Sharia banking laws are based on Halacha....

Jewish law forbids a Jew from charging interest on a loan to a fellow Jew. It seems the complaint against Sharia banking laws is because Sharia forbids the charging of interest.

This month, AIG announced that it would offer Shariah-compliant homeowner insurance policies, known as takaful, to U.S. customers through one of its subsidiaries. To be Shariah compliant, companies cannot earn interest and must agree to send a percentage of their revenue to Islamic charitable groups.

I am for the most part against Sharia in America. But I am for Halacha in Israel...

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/ribis1.html

Do not charge interest (Ribis) while lending money or food.

Do not cause your fellow Jew to charge interest (i.e. do not pay interest in return for a loan - a prohibition against the debtor paying interest).

Do not act as an accomplice to the charging of interest (an injunction against even consigning or certifying any usurious financial transaction).

A usurious creditor violates six biblical prohibitions.

Usury - charging interest - is equivalent to atheism.

An entrepreneur who lends money with interest will suffer financial reverses.

The usurer will not experience Resurrection.

[muman613]

I apologize for spamming this thread with Off-topic material, but for those interested in the Halacha concerning charging interest, the following article explains..

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5757/behar.html

Do not take from him interest and increase (Lev. 25:36)

EVERYDAY CASES INVOLVING INTEREST

Although the Biblical prohibition against charging interest (ribbis) on a loan is well-known, few people are aware of the many applications and ramifications of the laws of interest. Transgressing these laws could result in the violation of up to six negative commandments according to the Rambam (1), so it is imperative that we examine some everyday situations where the laws of interest apply.

SOME FORBIDDEN FORMS OF BORROWING:

A loan may not be made with conditions which will benefit the lender. He may not stipulate that in exchange for the loan, the borrower should patronize him, refer others to his or another person's business (2), be given a job (3) or make a donation to tzedakah (4). It is permitted, however, to lend money with the stipulation that the borrower will accept a job offer or take a course, etc., if the lender's aim is solely to benefit the borrower or to ensure that his loan will be repaid (5).

It is forbidden to lend money to a handyman on condition that he will work for the lender at a lower wage (6).

It is forbidden to borrow another person's credit card to make a purchase on which the borrower makes monthly payments with interest. Similarly, it is forbidden to borrow another person's credit card to obtain a cash advance. These transactions are forbidden because legally, the owner of the card is responsible for the payments. In effect, it is as if the borrower is borrowing money from the credit card owner and then repaying him the principal plus interest (7).

It is permitted to borrow another person's credit card (when no interest is paid) even though the credit card owner benefits from the borrower's purchase by earning mileage, etc. (8).

It is forbidden to lend money on condition that the borrower will--at a later date--lend the lender money for a longer period of time or for a larger amount of money than the present loan entails. It is debatable if the lender can make that type of condition if the terms will be the same as those of the present loan (9).

It is forbidden to charge extra money for a post-dated check, since the person issuing the check is actually paying interest for the privilege of delaying payment.

A form of ribbis of which many people are not aware of is the case of two people agreeing to an uneven exchange of jobs or chores. For instance, a teacher may not say to a colleague, "I will teach your period if you will teach mine"--if the two periods being exchanged are not exactly equal, both in the length of time and in the difficulty of work entailed (10). Similarly, one may not say to his friend, "I will paint your house if you will paint mine," if the two houses are not exactly even in size and in the amount of work involved (11).

It is forbidden to tell someone, "Have a meal with me, since I ate at your house last week". This appears to be payment of debt, and since one might give his friend a more elaborate meal than the meal he received, it may be perceived as ribbis. Some poskim (12), however, permit saying, "Come to my house for lunch, and I'll eat lunch at your house next week", while other poskim prohibit this as well (13).

NOTE: It is important to remember that in many of the cases in which it is prohibited to charge interest, a heter iska (partnership agreement) can be drawn up by a competent rabbinic authority which allows the transaction to be carried out in a halachically permissible manner.

SOME FORBIDDEN FORMS OF REPAYMENT:

The prohibition of ribbis is not limited to monetary payments. A favor or a benefit of any sort which the lender receives from the borrower may fall into the category of interest. There are several basic rules which govern the extent of this prohibition:

* A borrower may not extend a favor to a lender just because he got a loan from him. If the borrower would not have done the favor otherwise, it is forbidden to do the favor;

* The borrower may not do a favor for the lender in public even if he would have done the favor regardless of the loan;

* When the relationship between a borrower and a lender is long established and the borrower has previously granted public favors to the lender, such a relationship may continue even after a loan takes place.

SOME APPLICATIONS OF THESE RULES:

A borrower may not praise (14) or bless (15) a lender for lending him money or for extending a payment deadline. Some poskim even prohibit saying a simple thank-you (16), while others allow a simple thank-you (17).

A borrower may not buy a lender an aliyah in appreciation of a loan (18).

A borrower may not send Mishloach Manos to a lender (19), tutor a lender or his child in the study of Torah without compensation (20), offer him charity (21), sell him goods or offer a service below market price, (22) or buy goods from him or pay him for a service above market value (23), unless he would have done so regardless of the loan.

A borrower may invite a lender to a wedding even if he would not have invited him were it not for the loan (24).

Institutions, e.g., yeshivos, shuls, etc. may honor an individual who has loaned them money provided that the honor was not a condition for granting the loan (25).

It is permitted for a borrower to give a wedding gift to the son or daughter of a lender (26), even if he would not have given a gift were it not for the loan. The gift must be an item which the groom's/bride's father would not normally purchase for his child (27).

A borrower may extend to a lender a common courtesy, such as changing money for him. A lender, though, may not (strongly) request a favor from a borrower, even if it is merely a common courtesy (28).

Note: All non-financial benefits and favors are only prohibited while a loan is outstanding. Once a loan is repaid, this type of ribbis prohibition no longer applies (29).


FOOTNOTES

1 Hilchos Malveh V'loveh 4:2. See also Sefer Hamitzvos (Shoresh 6).
2 YD 160:23; Igros Moshe YD 3 Hilchos Ribbis 160:18.

3 Shulchan Aruch Harav 14.

4 Rama YD 160:14 (concerning hekdesh). R' Akiva Eiger adds that it is also prohibited to say, "I will lend you 100 if you will return 102 to hekdesh".

5 Questions of Interest pg. 45.

6 Shach YD 160:37.

7 Mishnas Ribbis 17:7 based on YD 168:17. See also Igros Moshe YD 3:42. Sometimes, the borrower promises to make payments within the grace period and then fails to honor his commitment, leaving the credit card owner with the interest payments. See Mishnas Ribbis who discusses several ways where the lender may be compensated in this case.

8 Since the points are awardwd by credit card company, not by the borrower.

9 Rama YD 160:9.

10 If, however, the work itself is comparable but the wages are not (for reasons of seniority, etc.) they are permitted to switch--Toras Ribbis pg. 227.

11 YD 160:9. Partners, however, may divide their work in any way they choose and exchange their obligations at any time--Chasam Sofer YD 135.

12 Rama OC 170; Aruch Hashulchan OC 170:14.

13 Taz quoted by Mishnah Berurah 170:32.

14 Nor may he greet him in a warmer or more gracious manner then he had previously greeted him--YD 160:11.

15 Even expressions like yeyashar kochachem or tizku l'mitzvos are questionable--see Birkei Yosef 160:12 and Bris Yehudah 11:29.

16 Igros Moshe YD 1:80. A possible solution is to thank him for his effort in making the loan.

17 Harav S.Z. Auerbach (Minchas Shlomo 27); Harav S.Y. Elyashiv (Mishnas Ribbis 4 fn. 21); Harav Yechezkel Roth (Questions of Interest pg. 61).

18 Shach YD 166:1.

19 Mishnas Ribbis 3 fn. 18.

20 YD 160:10.

21 Shulchan Aruch Harav 14.

22 Shach 160:37.

23 Shach 173:6.

24 Harav Yechezkel Roth and other poskim quoted in Questions of Interest (pg. 57). Several reasons are given:

The invitation is in recognition of their present social friendship, not an expression of appreciation.
A wedding invitation is not a public honor.
A wedding host considers the food as a gift to his guests.
25 Based on YD 160:18.
26 A Bar/Bas Mitzvah gift may be given only after the child's birthday has passed, since prior to his birthday, the item will belong to the father, who is the lender.

27 Bris Yehudah pg. 227.

28 YD 160:12, Shulchan Aruch Harav 10. See Darkei Teshuvah 80 and Bris Yehudah 11:14.

29 Birkei Yosef YD 160:11. See Yabia Omer YD 4:9.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I do not consider any law from Muzz rats valid! Only Jewish and American Christian law! Anybody that don't like it can get the heck out!

[angryChineseKahanist]

good.

[nessuno]

Muman, are you saying we should adopt some (or all) aspects of Sharia Law? I don't understand.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Muman, are you saying we should adopt some (or all) aspects of Sharia Law? I don't understand.

No, I think he is saying, surprisingly they got some law right...

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Many Muslim things were based on Halacha. Islam took parts of the Oral Torah but took certain things to the extreme. For example, a Saudi Arabian version of a tzniyut "chumrah" would be that women can't drive. Remember that Islam is a combination of Judaism, Christianity, Pre-Islamic Arabian lunar worship, and Mohammad's original insane ideas. Any good thing in Islam was copied off of Judaism.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

No, I think he is saying, surprisingly they got some law right...

Christians in Europe also kept that law. I guess they think Yeshu didn't fulfill that one. I was going to say I guess he forgot to or they think he forgot to.

That's why Jews were the money lenders in Europe. Jews can charge interest on Non-Jews. I guess the Christians and Muslims say the same thing with Christians and Non-Christians and Muslim and Non-Muslims.

[nessuno]

No, I think he is saying, surprisingly they got some law right...

Okay.  Thank You.

But, I don't think we should be quiet if they talk about stoning adulterers or homosexuals.  That would make me an animal like them.  And, I don't think we should accept Sharia Law, even if some parts are taken from the Oral Torah, since it is based on the Koran and the hadith.  I am glad to see the 'least likely' people finally standing up for something.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

According to the Noahide Laws, all humans are forbidden from homosexuality and adultery. The punishment for taking part in those actions is the death penalty. Adultery for Non-Jews only refers to a married woman. If the woman was never married, it's not adultery. Noahides don't have to get married. If they move in with each other, they are married. When they move out, it's like they are divorced. They don't need a get like Jews do so they also don't have to worry about mamzerim.

So pre-marital sex is not a crime for Non-Jews. Only Jews are forbidden from doing that.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

According to the Noahide Laws, all humans are forbidden from homosexuality and adultery. The punishment for taking part in those actions is the death penalty. Adultery for Non-Jews only refers to a married woman. If the woman was never married, it's not adultery. Noahides don't have to get married. If they move in with each other, they are married. When they move out, it's like they are divorced. They don't need a get like Jews do so they also don't have to worry about mamzerim.

So pre-marital sex is not a crime for Non-Jews. Only Jews are forbidden from doing that.

If the Sanhedrin is in place, and how many times did they do that?

[nessuno]

I am not a supporter of feminist causes or a proponent  of homosexuality/immorality.
Still, I don't believe that Sharia law has the right stance on those issues.
That is just my opinion.
How come the media didn't cover this story hardly at all?
Aren't the feminist and Hollywood types right up their alley?
That was my point.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

If the Sanhedrin is in place, and how many times did they do that?

Noahides have a commandment to set up courts to enforce the Noahide Laws. That is one of the seven. That is the only positive commandment. The others are just prohibitions.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Noahides have a commandment to set up courts to enforce the Noahide Laws. That is one of the seven. That is the only positive commandment. The others are just prohibitions.

Did the Sanhedrin stone fags? If they didn't, should I have too?

[muman613]

No, I think he is saying, surprisingly they got some law right...

Halacha is an interesting topic... Many laws appeared in the Torah which were copied by various legal codes. The laws concerning charging interest is one such law...

Sharia banking may be halachically acceptable...

But I do not agree with the laws which punish women unjustly, the laws concerning enforced 'modesty', the brutal laws which call for disfigurement, the laws concerning keeping women as slaves....

Some of these are derived from incorrect interpretation of the Jewish laws...

[muman613]

Okay.  Thank You.

But, I don't think we should be quiet if they talk about stoning adulterers or homosexuals.  That would make me an animal like them.  And, I don't think we should accept Sharia Law, even if some parts are taken from the Oral Torah, since it is based on the Koran and the hadith.  I am glad to see the 'least likely' people finally standing up for something.

But this law, the law of charging interest, comes from the Written Torah...

Shemot/Exodus Chapter 22:

21. You shall not oppress any widow or orphan.
22. If you oppress him, [beware,] for if he cries out to Me, I will surely hear his cry.
23. My wrath will be kindled, and I will slay you with the sword, and your wives will be widows and your children orphans.
24. When you lend money to My people, to the poor person [who is] with you, you shall not behave toward him as a lender; you shall not impose interest upon him.
25. If you take your neighbor's garment as security, until sunset you shall return it to him,
26. for it is his only covering; it is his garment for his skin. With what shall he lie? And it shall be [that] if he cries out to Me, I will hear because I am gracious.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Christians in Europe also kept that law. I guess they think Yeshu didn't fulfill that one. I was going to say I guess he forgot to or they think he forgot to.

That's why Jews were the money lenders in Europe. Jews can charge interest on Non-Jews. I guess the Christians and Muslims say the same thing with Christians and Non-Christians and Muslim and Non-Muslims.

I think Christians forbid excessive interest, not all interest, but I don't know how Catholics differ from Orthodox, Protestants, evangelicals, etc. This has never been a big issue for me.

[muman613]

Christians in Europe also kept that law. I guess they think Yeshu didn't fulfill that one. I was going to say I guess he forgot to or they think he forgot to.

That's why Jews were the money lenders in Europe. Jews can charge interest on Non-Jews. I guess the Christians and Muslims say the same thing with Christians and Non-Christians and Muslim and Non-Muslims.

Yes, the Rambam and Rashi say that Jews can charge interest on loans to non-Jews...

When you lend money to My people: Rabbi Ishmael says: Every אִם in the Torah is optional except three, and this is one of them. -[From Mechilta] אִם usually means “if,” which refers to something optional, denoting an incident that may or may not occur. Rashi on Exod. 20:22 explains that in this case, lending money to the needy is obligatory, as in Deut. 15:8. Therefore, in this verse, אִם means “when.”]
    
אם כסף תלוה את עמי: רבי ישמעאל אומר כל אם ואם שבתורה רשות, חוץ משלושה וזה אחד מהן:
to My people: [If a member of] My people [i.e., an Israelite,] and a gentile [apply for a loan], [the member of] My people takes preference; [if] a poor person and a rich person [apply for a loan], the poor person takes preference; [if] the poor of your city and the poor of another city [apply for a loan], the poor of your city take preference (Mechilta, B.M. 71a), and this is its meaning: “When you lend money,” lend it to “My people” and not to a gentile, and to which of My people? “To the poor person.” And to which poor person? To the one who is “with you.” [I.e., if you have enough money to lend to only one person, lend it to a Jew rather than to a non-Jew. Even if the gentile will pay interest, and you are not allowed to take interest from the Jew, you must lend the money to the Jew (B.M. 71a).] (Another meaning:
    
את עמי: עמי וגוי, עמי קודם. עני ועשיר, עני קודם. עניי עירך ועניי עיר אחרת, עניי עירך קודמין. וזה משמעו אם כסף תלוה, את עמי תלוהו, ולא לגוי ולאיזה מעמי, את העני, ולאיזה עני לאותו שעמך. דבר אחר את העני, שלא תנהג בו מנהג בזיון בהלוואה, שהוא עמי:
to My people: That you shall not behave toward him [the borrower] in a demeaning manner when you lend to him, for he is [a member of] My people. -[From Tanchuma 15]
    
את העני עמך: הוי מסתכל בעצמך כאלו אתה העני:
to the poor person [who is] with you: Look at yourself as if you were a poor person.) -[From Tanchuma 15]
    
לא תהיה לו כנשה: לא תתבענו בחזקה, אם אתה יודע שאין לו, אל תהי דומה עליו כאלו הלויתו, אלא כאילו לא הלויתו, כלומר לא תכלימהו:
you shall not behave toward him as a lender: You shall not demand it of him forcibly (Tanchuma 9, Exod. Rabbah 31:6). If you know that he does not have [the money to repay you], do not appear to him as if you have lent to him, but as if you have not lent to him; i.e., do not embarrass him. -[From B.M. 75b]
    
נשך: רבית שהוא כנשיכת נחש, שנושך חבורה קטנה ברגלו ואינו מרגיש, ופתאום הוא מבצבץ ונופח עד קדקדו, כך רבית, אינו מרגיש ואינו ניכר עד שהרבית עולה ומחסרו ממון הרבה:
interest: Heb. נֶשֶׁ, lit., biting. Interest, which is like the biting of a snake, which bites by making a small wound in a person’s foot, and he [the person] does not feel [the wound], and suddenly, it spreads and swells up as far as his crown. So it is with interest. He does not feel it, and it is not noticeable until the interest accumulates and it costs him a considerable sum of money. -[From Tanchuma 9, Exod. Rabbah 31:6]

[nessuno]

Halacha is an interesting topic... Many laws appeared in the Torah which were copied by various legal codes. The laws concerning charging interest is one such law...

Sharia banking may be halachically acceptable...

But I do not agree with the laws which punish women unjustly, the laws concerning enforced 'modesty', the brutal laws which call for disfigurement, the laws concerning keeping women as slaves....

Some of these are derived from incorrect interpretation of the Jewish laws...

We have our own laws and judicial system in this country.  That is what we should follow.
I don't think we can pick and choose what is 'acceptable' from Sharia law.
That is a slippery slope.

[nessuno]

I think Christians forbid excessive interest, not all interest, but I don't know how Catholics differ from Orthodox, Protestants, evangelicals, etc. This has never been a big issue for me.

I'm not sure how money lending in Europe has anything to do with having Sharia Law practiced in the United States.

Seeing feminist and Jay Leno protesting against the treatment of women under Sharia Law. 
It is either a good sign or the end of the world.