Author Topic: How did Bar Kochba die?  (Read 5758 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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How did Bar Kochba die?
« on: September 07, 2014, 11:24:35 PM »
1 source says that he was tested by the Hachamim and then killed for being a false Messiah. Others say otherwise.  + Maybe they didn't physically kill him but "killed" the idea of him being the Messiah perhaps.

Sanhedrin 93b.

2. Regarding Mashi'ach it says "V'Nachah Alav Ru'ach Hash-m Ru'ach Chachmah u'Vinah Ru'ach Etzah u'Gvurah Ru'ach Da'as v'Yir'as Hash-m".
i. (R. Alexandri): "*Va'Haricho* b'Yir'as Hash-m" - this teaches that Hash-m loaded Mashi'ach with Mitzvos and afflictions like a Reichayim (millstone).
 ii. (Rava): "Va'Haricho..." teaches that he is Morach (smells, i.e. senses who is guilty) and judges - "V'Lo l'Mar'e Einav Yishpot...v'Shofat Tzedek".
 iii. Bar Koziva ruled for two and a half years, and told Chachamim that he is Mashi'ach. Chachamim tested him, they saw that he cannot judge by 'smell', they killed him (Ramah - like a false prophet (our Gemara argues with the Medrash that Romi killed him)).


http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/sanhedrin/points/sn-ps-093.htm
 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2014, 11:25:38 PM »
I heard a snake from Rabbi Mizrachi.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2014, 11:28:04 PM »
 Also now that I remembered something else (vaguely) I think the word used is "It" and not "him" (someone should double check). Maybe it means that they "killed" the idea of him being the Moshiah and not him physically. 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2014, 11:29:04 PM »
I heard a snake from Rabbi Mizrachi.

 Yea I think its in the Gemarah as well. He went to the bathroom and a snake bit him and he died.

 I also think that once I stumbled at a NK website and they might have said that the snake was a reference to the Rabbis perhaps as well.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Sof Sof

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2014, 05:01:23 PM »
Historically, how do we know he died at all? Spartacus, though his 6000 man army was died in their final battle for freedom and survivors crucified, they never found Spartacus body, though there was no lack of people who would be able to identify him, which left a sour taste in Marcus Crasus mouth. Josephus records the fate of Jonatan Gush Khalav, imprisonment and life in the salt mine and Shimon Bar Giora was dragged by a halter around his neck to the Mamertine underground prison (second level added later) and strangled there.

Since it was common Roman practice to at least confirm the death of an enemy, the fact that no history's records such a identity of any of the dead as being the Prince of Israel,  means that among other possibilities, the body too mutilated to be sure of who it was. But knowing that part of the revolts strategy was building tunnels to escape right under the Romans feet to safe distances and the fact that Cassius Dio does not even mention Bar Kohba or  Beitar though he describes the whole campaign including bringing Julius Severus from Britain.

 13 1 At first the Romans took no account of them. Soon, however, all Judaea had been stirred up, and the Jews everywhere were showing signs of disturbance, were gathering together, and giving evidence of great hostility to the Romans, partly by secret and partly by overt acts; 2 many outside nations, too, were joining them through eagerness for gain, and the whole earth, one might almost say, was being stirred up over the matter. Then, indeed, Hadrian sent against them his best generals. First of these was Julius Severus, who was dispatched from Britain, where he was governor, against the Jews. 3 Severus did not venture to attack his opponents in the open at any one point, in view of their numbers and their desperation, but by intercepting small groups, thanks to the number of his soldiers and his under-officers, and by depriving them of food and shutting them up, he was able, rather slowly, to be sure, but with comparatively little danger, to crush, exhaust and exterminate them. Very few of them in fact survived. 14 1 Fifty of their most important outposts and nine hundred and eighty-five of their most famous villages were p451razed to the ground. Five hundred and eighty thousand men were slain in the various raids and battles, and the number of those that perished by famine, disease and fire was past finding out. 2 Thus nearly the whole of Judaea was made desolate, a result of which the people had had forewarning before the war. For the tomb of Solomon, which the Jews regard as an object of veneration, fell to pieces of itself and collapsed, and many wolves and hyenas rushed howling into their cities. 3 Many Romans, moreover, perished in this war. Therefore Hadrian in writing to the senate did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors, "If you and our children are in health, it is well; I and the legions are in health."

4 He sent Severus into Bithynia, which needed no armed force but a governor and leader who was just and prudent and a man of rank. All this qualifications Severus possessed. And he managed and administer both their private and their public affairs in such a manner that we are still, even to‑day, wont to remember him. Pamphylia, in place Bithynia, was given to the senate and made assignable by lot.

15 1 This, then, was the end of the war with the Jews. A second war was begun by the Alani (they are Massagetae) at the instigation of Pharasmanes. It p453caused dire injury to the Albanian territory and Media, and then involved Armenia and Cappadocia; after which, as the Alani were not only persuaded by gifts from Vologaesus but also stood in dread of Flavius Arrianus, the governor of Cappadocia, it came to a stop.

In fact Marcus Aurelius Tutor in a letter to his pupil gave a more somber opinion of Romes defeat of the Jews.

"The god who begat the great Roman race has no compunction in suffering us to faint at times and be defeated and wounded. [...] But always and everywhere he turned our sorrows into successes and our terrors into triumphs. But not to hark back too far into ancient times, I will take instances from your own family. [...] Under the rule of your grandfather Hadrian, what a significant number of soldiers were killed by the Jews.
[translation C.R. Haines]
The interesting aspect about this letter, that was written in 162, is that it presents the war against Bar Kochba as a military defeat."

So did he die in battle or did he manage to get thru the tunnel system or or means past the Romans who were probably not up to snuff after so many battles and left perimeter security lax.

Indeed, maybe Bar Kocba survived after all.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2014, 06:10:44 PM »
Historically, how do we know he died at all? Spartacus, though his 6000 man army was died in their final battle for freedom and survivors crucified, they never found Spartacus body, though there was no lack of people who would be able to identify him, which left a sour taste in Marcus Crasus mouth. Josephus records the fate of Jonatan Gush Khalav, imprisonment and life in the salt mine and Shimon Bar Giora was dragged by a halter around his neck to the Mamertine underground prison (second level added later) and strangled there.

Since it was common Roman practice to at least confirm the death of an enemy, the fact that no history's records such a identity of any of the dead as being the Prince of Israel,  means that among other possibilities, the body too mutilated to be sure of who it was. But knowing that part of the revolts strategy was building tunnels to escape right under the Romans feet to safe distances and the fact that Cassius Dio does not even mention Bar Kohba or  Beitar though he describes the whole campaign including bringing Julius Severus from Britain.

 13 1 At first the Romans took no account of them. Soon, however, all Judaea had been stirred up, and the Jews everywhere were showing signs of disturbance, were gathering together, and giving evidence of great hostility to the Romans, partly by secret and partly by overt acts; 2 many outside nations, too, were joining them through eagerness for gain, and the whole earth, one might almost say, was being stirred up over the matter. Then, indeed, Hadrian sent against them his best generals. First of these was Julius Severus, who was dispatched from Britain, where he was governor, against the Jews. 3 Severus did not venture to attack his opponents in the open at any one point, in view of their numbers and their desperation, but by intercepting small groups, thanks to the number of his soldiers and his under-officers, and by depriving them of food and shutting them up, he was able, rather slowly, to be sure, but with comparatively little danger, to crush, exhaust and exterminate them. Very few of them in fact survived. 14 1 Fifty of their most important outposts and nine hundred and eighty-five of their most famous villages were p451razed to the ground. Five hundred and eighty thousand men were slain in the various raids and battles, and the number of those that perished by famine, disease and fire was past finding out. 2 Thus nearly the whole of Judaea was made desolate, a result of which the people had had forewarning before the war. For the tomb of Solomon, which the Jews regard as an object of veneration, fell to pieces of itself and collapsed, and many wolves and hyenas rushed howling into their cities. 3 Many Romans, moreover, perished in this war. Therefore Hadrian in writing to the senate did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors, "If you and our children are in health, it is well; I and the legions are in health."

4 He sent Severus into Bithynia, which needed no armed force but a governor and leader who was just and prudent and a man of rank. All this qualifications Severus possessed. And he managed and administer both their private and their public affairs in such a manner that we are still, even to‑day, wont to remember him. Pamphylia, in place Bithynia, was given to the senate and made assignable by lot.

15 1 This, then, was the end of the war with the Jews. A second war was begun by the Alani (they are Massagetae) at the instigation of Pharasmanes. It p453caused dire injury to the Albanian territory and Media, and then involved Armenia and Cappadocia; after which, as the Alani were not only persuaded by gifts from Vologaesus but also stood in dread of Flavius Arrianus, the governor of Cappadocia, it came to a stop.

In fact Marcus Aurelius Tutor in a letter to his pupil gave a more somber opinion of Romes defeat of the Jews.

"The god who begat the great Roman race has no compunction in suffering us to faint at times and be defeated and wounded. [...] But always and everywhere he turned our sorrows into successes and our terrors into triumphs. But not to hark back too far into ancient times, I will take instances from your own family. [...] Under the rule of your grandfather Hadrian, what a significant number of soldiers were killed by the Jews.
[translation C.R. Haines]
The interesting aspect about this letter, that was written in 162, is that it presents the war against Bar Kochba as a military defeat."

So did he die in battle or did he manage to get thru the tunnel system or or means past the Romans who were probably not up to snuff after so many battles and left perimeter security lax.

Indeed, maybe Bar Kocba survived after all.

Because there was no disagreement among the Rabbis that he died.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2014, 06:49:44 PM »
http://www.bethisraelct.org/page.asp?pageID=%7B84AA24DE-F1B9-407F-B90F-AB615B60C364%7D

The End of Bar Kochba

What was the ultimate end of Bar Kochba (Ben Koziva), who was believed by Rabbi Akiva to be Moshiach?

In Hilchos Taaniyos, Maimonides writes that Ben Koziva was killed by the Romans. Raavad, by contrast, writes that he was killed by order of the Rabbinical court: “The Sages dispatched people to test whether or not he could judge by his sense of smell, and since he could not, they killed him.”

It could be argued that there is no difference of opinion as to what actually happened, and that all agree that he was killed by the gentiles. The difference of opinion may be understood as follows:

According to the view of Maimonides (following the view of R. Akiva), that Mashiach does not have to be able to work miracles and wonders, Ben Koziva was killed simply “because of [his] sins,” and not because he was unable to “judge by his sense of smell.”

According to the view of Raavad (following the view of the Talmud in Sanhedrin and the opinion of R. Yochanan ben Torta, that Mashiach does have to be able to work miracles and wonders, Ben Koziva was liable to the death penalty because he was incapable of “judging by his sense of smell.”

The rationale is as follows: The absence of this sign proved that he was not Mashiach; he battled against the gentiles (thinking that he was Mashiach despite his inability to judge by his sense of smell, because he held the view of R. Akiva); many Jews perished in these battles; accordingly, he was now liable to the death penalty since he had caused Jewish blood to be spilled in vain. Even though in fact it was the gentiles who killed him, they “killed a man who was already [sentenced by the beis din to be] killed.” Thus, too, Ridbaz quotes the Talmud (“Seeing that he was unable to judge by his sense of smell they killed him”) and explains: “This means that they dissociated themselves from him and the gentiles came and killed him.”

(Sources: Hilchot Taaniyot 5:2; Raavad’s Gloss on Hilchot Melachim 11:3; Sanhedrin 93b; Likutei Sichot vol. 27, p. 200.  Excerpted from From Exile to Redemption, published by Sichot in English, p. 172)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2014, 07:05:13 PM »
   Thanks Muman.

   I think its a Mahloket between the Bavli and the Yerushalmi then (it comes down to) and they both reflect the different views of Physical (Yerushalmi) vs. more spiritual (Bavli) views of and on Moshiah as well. And its reflected on the Rambam vs. the Raavad or Sefardi Rishonim mainly vs. Askenasi either Rishonim or more mystically inclined.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2014, 07:41:22 PM »
This is a problem. If Moshiah comes and Rambam was right, then how do we know we're not doing the right thing. Also, could Moshiah ben Yosef have been Rabbi Kahane? If so, 2030 is what we're aiming for...
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 08:16:01 PM »
This is a problem. If Moshiah comes and Rambam was right, then how do we know we're not doing the right thing. Also, could Moshiah ben Yosef have been Rabbi Kahane? If so, 2030 is what we're aiming for...

I have wondered if Rabbi Kahane ZT'l was Moshiah Ben Yosef... I think I wrote a post about it here some years ago.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 12:45:05 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sof Sof

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 05:18:38 AM »
Because there was no disagreement among the Rabbis that he died.

But according to the Meiri and Sefer Hadoros, the Bar Kochba revolt began durng the reign of Trajan and ended at Betar with the alleged death of Bar Kochbas grandson. Now the Meiri was an iluyi no doubt about that  Sefer Doros also claims "Son of Deceit" as a play on Bar Kochbas name by the Romans not Rebbe Yochanan in the Yerushalmi.

Then their is also the question of whether he actually built a third Beit Hamikdash in that there is recorded a Korban Pesach brought to Yerushalayim during the time Bar Kochba held the city and of course the Korban coud only be brought if there was no Mikdash and no Cohen Gadol which we know there was from the coins, stamped with the name Eliazar Hacohen on one side different variants of Bar Kocbas on the other  either his nam alone or Nasi Israel also stamped

Read Rebbe Leibel Reznicks "The Mystery of Bar Kochba" I would amend his book to the question of Bar Kochbas possible survival.  But right now whats left of Fort Betar is near an Arab village.  Who knows if ground penetrating radar wont find a mass grave of the defenders and maybe more hidden scrolls. But the Arabs always get nervous whenever we dig so its still virgin territory for archaeology. :israel:

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2014, 11:25:13 AM »
Also now that I remembered something else (vaguely) I think the word used is "It" and not "him" (someone should double check). Maybe it means that they "killed" the idea of him being the Moshiah and not him physically.

I haven't looked into this and also don't have the scholarly expertise but I would bet that the statements comprising this layer of this gemara are from a later period and constitute a calculated attempt by these chachamim to discourage true messianic thinking or fervor (read, rebellious against Rome/gentiles to fight and  take back our land) beccause the failed revolt resulted in a massacre of Jews on greater scale than the holocaust and it became very clear that at that point we didn't have the means to win.  So it was not practical to fight, and remained as such for centuries after.
Rabbi Akiva thought bar kochva could be messiah and Akiva was the greatest chacham at the time, so I highly doubt this account in Sanhedrin is historical in nature.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2014, 11:51:22 AM »
I haven't looked into this and also don't have the scholarly expertise but I would bet that the statements comprising this layer of this gemara are from a later period and constitute a calculated attempt by these chachamim to discourage true messianic thinking or fervor (read, rebellious against Rome/gentiles to fight and  take back our land) beccause the failed revolt resulted in a massacre of Jews on greater scale than the holocaust and it became very clear that at that point we didn't have the means to win.  So it was not practical to fight, and remained as such for centuries after.
Rabbi Akiva thought bar kochva could be messiah and Akiva was the greatest chacham at the time, so I highly doubt this account in Sanhedrin is historical in nature.

Maybe at a later stage after seeing him do either wrong or bad things continually. And it wasn't just R A kiva but all or majority of the hachamom who supported. He is.mentioned because he was the head.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2014, 10:44:14 PM »
Maybe at a later stage after seeing him do either wrong or bad things continually.

Yeah like getting killed along with 40% of thhe world's Jews.  These statements are most likely not during the time he lived.   Is it the "stam" of the gemara? If so we are potentially talking about statements made several centuries after his demise.  IMO the sages were wisely discouraging. Jews from gettiing themselves killed.  This is in fact the shita of Rav Bar Hayim regarding the midrash which says Moshe killed the egyptian with the holy name.   I am extrapolating that to this case because I think it would make sense.

Quote

And it wasn't just R A kiva but all or majority of the hachamom who supported. He is.mentioned because he was the head.

All the more reason why a statement from chachamim declaring him a fraud must be after the fact and ahistorical.

As for those suggesting bar kochva is still alive. , wow, what kind of stuff are you guys smoking?


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2014, 11:01:34 PM »
Rav kahane in peruish hamaccabi explains about.Moshe and the Egyptian. Said he killed.him in the name of has hem and then physically.killed.him
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Sof Sof

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Re: How did Bar Kochba die?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2014, 10:52:10 AM »
Yeah like getting killed along with 40% of thhe world's Jews.  These statements are most likely not during the time he lived.   Is it the "stam" of the gemara? If so we are potentially talking about statements made several centuries after his demise.  IMO the sages were wisely discouraging. Jews from gettiing themselves killed.  This is in fact the shita of Rav Bar Hayim regarding the midrash which says Moshe killed the egyptian with the holy name.   I am extrapolating that to this case because I think it would make sense.

All the more reason why a statement from chachamim declaring him a fraud must be after the fact and ahistorical.

As for those suggesting bar kochva is still alive. , wow, what kind of stuff are you guys smoking?


First of all, love your name. I can remember when I first read uncomfortable questions for comfortable Jews and Israel, revolution or referendum, having already read his They Must Go and Never Again.  Why didnt someone check the people who were attending his las speech for weapons. Surely this murderer may he rot eternally, must have given of the usual signs of someone about to do something usually something evil. They usually fit a profile. This guy was no genius.

And then his son and daughter in law murdered as well. I wonder if we will hear from his six children. I cant imagine having such a father and grandfather and not  bezras Hashem, pick up their legacy and be heard and shake up Am Israel as well.

Oh and Im not smoking anything. Not these days anyways. I just keep an open mind about my heroes.  Actually apparently I was wrong about a study of the sight, there was one done in 1993.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/06/betar-and-pas-attempts-to-destroy.html#.VCwNnmUkWSo

But it was really only a scratch of the surface of the area.  Supposedly the bodies were ordered left by Hadrian to be unburied. Then Antonius Pius his successor was more benevolent and allowed burial of the bodies.

Bar Kochba probably did die in Beitar. For the reason that the Romans weren't looking for capture, but total scorched earth. They wanted to burn Beitar down to the ground and if Bar Kochba was the man I like to think he was, he went down with his soldiers and his people.
But I would like to see if we can find the mass grave, not unlike a first century Babi Yar, and put a fitting Memorial over that spot. I think within a circle radius of 5 miles there could be some interesting finds in terms of history and Torah etc.

I never take Jewish history for granted.  The only ones who knew what happened at Beitar was the Romans and the Jews who died there. Nothing the Rebbeim could write could possibly give us a factual account of what occured there.

I found an interesting tachlis machlokes about Rebbe Akiva and his Talmidim and Bar Kochba here.

 http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26881/is-there-any-evidence-that-rabbi-akivas-students-fought-alongside-bar-kochba

Ever since the day when they found the name Balaam ben Peor in an inscription in Jordan, known as the Deir Alla inscription, describing him exactly as the Torah did, a powerful sorcerer if you will who could wreak havoc with his magic and he was know as the "cursing prophet" and before that, when they discovered that the Philistine Temples design often  consisted of two levels with the support beams being two pillars in the center, close enough for a Gibor like Shimshon to push out of place and bring the whole building down with him, I never take any Torah history for granted.

Bar Kochba surviving is no doubt wishful thinking, but theorizing helps hone the mind.

Kol Kavod