Author Topic: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?  (Read 13568 times)

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Online ChabadKahanist

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Re: Do they want Jews make Alyhia?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2014, 01:10:34 AM »
You know that you are wrong, otherwise you would be able to argue for your points, instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks.  His mother is not Jewish. Her family was even persecuted under Stalin for Ukrainian nationalism.

 It's possible that he has had a conversion after he came to Israel. But he certainly was not born as 'halachically Jewish', although his father was Jewish.
No, once again - I am Jewish from my maternal grandmother. I am Jewish from any point of view: Halacha, Law of Return, and in terms of having some real Jewish ancestry  that would trace genetically to Israel.

Eskin father is Jewish, but his maternal grandmother was not Jewish, so according halacha he was not  born Jewish. Since those days, he perhaps had a conversion, although he hasn't talked about it.  I don't care either way, and view him as 50% Jewish and also Jewish nationalist.
I did in fact argue my points & the fact that you are attacking everything that is Autrhentic Judaism is proof.
If indeed you are a Jew which I doubt you are JINO (Jew In Name Only) at best a Hellenist of the highest order.
You claim that Eskin's mother was not Jewish without any proof.
We all know that Avigdor Eskin is Jewish & is a halachic Jew.
You viciously slander Chaim who did more in one day for Jews than you ever will in your entire life!!!
Your gibberish about genetics & half Jews & quarter Jews comes right from Hitler & the Nazi Party.
How about sticking the the authentic Jewish definition of what is a Jew namely born of a Jewish mother or converted according to halacha?
Because if indeed you are a Jew you are a self-hating Jew who holds by Nazi definitions of what a Jew is rather than authentic Jewish ones!!!!
Go find yourself a rabbi, a real rabbi......AN ORTHODOX RABBI & & find out what being a Jew & Judaism really is!!!!!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 01:46:17 AM by ChabadKahanist »

Offline dimitry

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 09:25:47 PM »
Sad how some people forget how 100% Jewish righteous gerim are.

Who would dare stand in front of Ruth, the great grandmother of King David (and ancestress of the future Moshiach) and tell her the things I read in this thread about people who honestly turn to Hashem and join Israel.

You talk about genetics? What about genetics? I see all kinds of Jews, gerim, born Jews. Persian, Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrachi. Some observant some not. I have seem gerim go through an entire process of converting only to go back to their old ways and I see others who do an entire conversion process and are most observant people ever. Serious people who love Hashem and Torah all while you get Jews like Adam Sandler who publicly talks about how he loves bacon. You talk to us about the importance of "genetics"?
Adam Sandler is "genetically Jewish" isn't he? Is he better than Ruth just because he was born Jewish? Is he better than someone who does an entire year or two of a conversion process just because he just happened to have a Jewish mother? What about all the "genetically Jewish" celebrities who intermarry and desecrate Shabbos. Yes, I see genetics are really important.

Do you know who Onkelos was? He was a GENIUS and a convert! What about Rabbi Akiva? He descended from converts and is one of the greatest scholars in Judaism.

Obviously doing a conversion does not turn someone's DNA Semitic BUT it does mean someone is 100% Jewish with a Jewish Neshama. The body is just a vessel for the soul. In Shamayim the neshama of every Jew is the same, whether their body converted or had a Jewish mother. Giyur has existed for a long time, it is by no means some magic fake ritual but an actual real process.
If you want to talk about  figures from Ancient Israel - according to the views on here, most of the Ancient Israelis wouldn't count as Jewish. Since in Ancient Israel, Jewish descent was traced patrilinealy, and taking foreign wives was common.  The children of such families, were treated as Jewish if the father was Jewish - but not vice-versa.

Of course both these views are illogical, and that's why the correct view is that neither patrilineal or matrilineal descent should take precedence.

I don't have anything against converts - but it becomes ridiculous when we have people on here claiming that Russian Jews shouldn't be allowed in Israel, because they have intermarried. While at the same time, they would accept to Israel converts who have 0% descent from Israel and a spouse with 0% descent from Israel. 

(If the convert has a spouse with Jewish descent, then they should of course be allowed to repatriate to Israel - but first they should have such a spouse, and therefore a family with Jewish descent)

The whole point of Zionism is to return to our homeland, and if are ancestors were not Ancient Israelis, then we lose our legitimacy to live in Israel.  This is why the anti-semites claim that we are 'converted Khazars', etc - in order to undermine this legitimacy.   I have a liberal view on the right of return, that people with 25% Jewish descent should be allowed, and to have 100% equal rights when in Israel.



Adam Sandler is "genetically Jewish" isn't he? Is he better than Ruth just because he was born Jewish? Is he better than someone who does an entire year or two of a conversion process just because he just happened to have a Jewish mother? What about all the "genetically Jewish" celebrities who intermarry and desecrate Shabbos. Yes, I see genetics are really important.
I don't give a damn if they are better or worse people.

The people who have some descent from Israel (such as Adam Sandler) are the people who should have the most right to move to Israel, since we are the ones returning to our homeland.

  Yes, genetics are important, since the reason we are in Israel is because it is our homeland (where our ancestors lived, which has been proved by genetic studies which show that Jews originate in Ancient Israel).

People who are half Jewish and people who are quarter Jewish, have a right to Israel, since their ancestors lived here. End of story.

And converts too, but after they have a spouse with Jewish descent and therefore a family who is returning to their homeland.

I did in fact argue my points & the fact that you are attacking everything that is Autrhentic Judaism is proof.
If indeed you are a Jew which I doubt you are JINO (Jew In Name Only) at best a Hellenist of the highest order.
You claim that Eskin's mother was not Jewish without any proof.


Everyone knows that Eskin is half-Jewish. I don't understand why you are even arguing about this. He is typical kind of person you normally write racist comments against. His father was Jewish and his mother was a non-Jewish Ukrainian woman. He immigrated to Israel, and he has also converted to halachic status according to some sources.
 
In Russian-language, you could use a translator:
http://www.spectr.org/2001/034/levi.htm


!
Your gibberish about genetics & half Jews & quarter Jews comes right from Hitler & the Nazi Party.
How about sticking the the authentic Jewish definition of what is a Jew namely born of a Jewish mother or converted according to halacha?
Because if indeed you are a Jew you are a self-hating Jew who holds by Nazi definitions of what a Jew is rather than authentic Jewish ones!!!!
Go find yourself a rabbi, a real rabbi......AN ORTHODOX RABBI & & find out what being a Jew & Judaism really is!!!!!

Being half-Jewish and quarter-Jewish has nothing to do with Hitler and the Nazi party.  It is a basic reality, basic logic, and it is science as well.

Just as with any other ethnicity on earth, a person who has one Jewish parent and one non-Jewish parent is half-Jewish.

 Equally a person with one Chinese parent and one non-Chinese parent, is half-Chinese.

A person with one Eskimo parent and one non-Eskimo parent is half-Eskimo. 

A mule is half a horse and half a donkey.

Now maybe you want to reject logic and science as 'Hellenism', in which case perhaps you shouldn't be on a computer either, since computers are built using logic.

The only ones who are copying Hitler on this forum, are people who are racist against Russian olim. The community suffered huge discrimination from Hitler, then under Soviet sphere, and finally (even in Israel) from people such as on this forum, because half of our community had intermarried before coming to Israel.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:15:51 PM by dimitry »

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 09:51:28 PM »
There is not a single person in the World that is "half Jewish". Can someone be "half Christian" or "half Muslim"? What you say is like the self-hating Jews that intermarry and give their kids a brit milah and also baptize them. In such cases where the mother is Jewish, the soul of such a baby suffers from being abused by such parents.



Offline dimitry

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 10:10:45 PM »
There is not a single person in the World that is "half Jewish". Can someone be "half Christian" or "half Muslim"? What you say is like the self-hating Jews that intermarry and give their kids a brit milah and also baptize them. In such cases where the mother is Jewish, the soul of such a baby suffers from being abused by such parents.

There are millions of people who are half-Jewish, and quarter Jewish.  This is reality whether you like it or not. And for me, all are cousins and I will fight to defend them.

And comparing us to Muslims and Christians? Unlike Muslims and Christians - we are a nationality, tribe and ethnicity.

To be Muslim or Christian, is just to belong to a superficial ideology - Christians and Muslims are like being a communist or a Democrat. 

Whereas Jews, it is a family - we are genuine descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These people were actual ancestors.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:35:56 PM by dimitry »

Online ChabadKahanist

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2014, 12:24:46 AM »
There are millions of people who are half-Jewish, and quarter Jewish.  This is reality whether you like it or not. And for me, all are cousins and I will fight to defend them.

And comparing us to Muslims and Christians? Unlike Muslims and Christians - we are a nationality, tribe and ethnicity.

To be Muslim or Christian, is just to belong to a superficial ideology - Christians and Muslims are like being a communist or a Democrat. 

Whereas Jews, it is a family - we are genuine descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These people were actual ancestors.
Again you have failed to show your point of view from any authentic Jewish sources.
Don't quote us nazi sources for defining a Jew becaue that is exactly what you are doing.
No Jewish source says this.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2014, 01:27:53 AM »
And comparing us to Muslims and Christians? Unlike Muslims and Christians - we are a nationality, tribe and ethnicity.


What about a religion? It is our religion which has kept us a people. What we saw in just 100 years in Russia is a microcosm of 2,000 years of assimilation that destroys the Jewish soul.

Any Jew that has one Jewish grandparent (mother's mother) is a full Jew, a 100% Jew.


Offline Sveta

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2014, 01:31:20 PM »
Your problem is accepting the fact that gerim who do a Halakhic conversion are 100% Jewish descendants of Avraham Avinu while non-Jews (as much Jewish ancestry they may have) are 0% Jewish.

However, a non-Jew with a Jewish grandparent is allowed to make Aliyah, they just can't marry Jews in Israel because they are not Jewish. Regardless of what you can say, historically in the past wives and other people that Jews married did a conversion, so the ancient Israelites and early Ashkenazim were Jewish, because people who joined them did a conversion to get in.

A Jewish man who has a child with a non-Jew is spiritually not the father, I know DNA he is the bilogical father but in the Jewish establishment, the child is not regarded as Jewish, nor half-Jewish. Regardless of what biology is and DNA etc..etc.. we are only talking about being Halakihally Jewish. The convervaties and reforms do recognize such people are Jewish in their own beliefs.

So, why the need to argue with Orthodox Jews about it when you know we will never agree? Nor will the Israeli Chief Rabbinate agree? I am sure your family is very nice and I have nothing against them. But, the reality is that in the eyes of Orthodox Judaism, they are not Halakihally Jewish, not "half-Jewish". Maybe biologically. And a Ger Tzeddek who does a valid conversion has 100% a right to make Aliyah, who cares if he or she has 0 drops of Jewishness, they have a right to live in Israel because that is what Hashem promised to ALL Jews regardless if they have a Jewish mother or became Jewish. To even suggest that gerim are less able to claim Israel because of their lack of DNA-genetics is anti-Judaism.

Offline Yehudayaakov

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2014, 07:15:58 AM »
We can say they don't want Jews in Israel it's a facade the state of Israel is showing to the world thus they can say how generous they are toward their Jewish brethren, a little condescending with lot of contempt that keeps lot of Jews coming in the Jewish country.

Offline kyel

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2014, 07:25:42 PM »
Being Jewish is genetic.

The reason that we are successful, for example, is because Ashkenazim have a specific genetics, which predetermines us to have the highest IQ levels of any ethnic group in the world.

You can believe in superstitious rituals of conversion if you want (we could convert ten million Africans, and within a generation we would soon have one of the lowest IQs in the world, and we would lose all our tradition of learning, debate and science).

Conversion doesn't give you Jewish blood, genetics or ancestors. Conversion doesn't give you a Jewish intellect or IQ.

In the real world, the most important thing is your genetics.

Someone who is half Jewish, is a person with 50% Jewish blood. And a person who is a quarter Jewish, has 25% Jewish blood.




The reason Jewish genetics are high is because we have a studious tradition. Anyone willing to put in the effort to be a studious person will have a higher intelligence. Intelligence is caused by a combination of effort and genetics, but without effort a person who has the potential to be a genius and doesn't utilize it might as well be considered a stupid person. Converts to Judaism (every Jew in the world today has converts in their blood just look at the high rate of European features and studies to show this) are more likely to be intelligent and analytical than the surrounding population because Judaism is the most logical and brain-utilizing religion that ever existed. In the real world the most important thing is not your genetics, go try to get a job and tell your interviewer you have good genetics as your skill.

Offline Rafoe

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2014, 11:45:01 AM »
I read a lot of confused reactions here from all sides, so let explain:

Torah of Israel (Jews) commands the Jews to marry Jews and have Jewish children so the Chosen People will continue to keep the Torah.

On the other hand the Torah also allows every gentile (goy), regardless of color and nationality, to enter the nation of Israel by conversion.
The conversion can take between 1-3 years (depending on the convert's progress).

On the one hand the Torah clearly says - who assimilated (marry a non Jew) cut himself away from Israel (As a branch cut from a tree).
Jewish woman who marrying a gentile, her children are consider as Jews but with some restrictions.
A Jewish man however can not have Jewish children with a gentile woman Because the nationality is determined according to the mother.

The ideall situation is two Jewish parents so there will be no doubts.

Not many people know but the daughter of a Jewish woman and non-Jew man can not marry with Cohen (as divorced or widowed), which is the price she pays for her mother's sins.

Bottom line - the Torah wants Jews marry Jews, but if you have to choose between descendants os assimilated Jews who live like Gentiles to converts who live a full Jewish life then you should prefer the converts.

Israelis like me know that a large majority of Russians Gentiles in Israel celebrate Christmas and live like total gentiles (because thats what they are).

Also - many Russian women converted to Islam and married with Arabs.

If we count the Jewish people by "blood", then the Jewish people should appoint at least 100 million people since assimilation is the biggest Holocaust in Jewish history, but because we do not count the Jews by blood, but only according to Jewish law (which defines who is a Jew) then all the talking about the "25 percent" or "50 percent" of Jews are no more than nonsense.


By the way - military service has never been a criterion to being a Jew.
King David had Army officials who were gentiles and he had never considered them as Jews.

There are even Arab Bedouin who serve in Israel's army. It still does not make them Jews.

Offline Yehudayaakov

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Re: Do they want Jews make Aliyah?
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2014, 08:10:28 AM »
I read a lot of confused reactions here from all sides, so let explain:
there are even Arab Bedouin who serve in Israel's army. It still does not make them Jews.

I have to agree with Hareidim they are right not to enrolled into idf. A Jewish army to be created untill it happen no Jew in idf.