Author Topic: Serious question.  (Read 1764 times)

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Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Serious question.
« on: May 28, 2015, 10:47:37 PM »
What scripture does the anti messiah taking the Temple after it is rebuilt come from? No fighting! I'm serious!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Yerusha

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2015, 11:01:28 PM »
Zecharia 14 speaks of Jerusalem's future capture.

For explicit details of the Anti-Moshiach (Armilus) and his possible brief success, see R.Yehuda Chayoun's "When Moshiach Comes", which sources all the non-Biblical Jewish Apocalyptic works


Offline muman613

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2015, 02:23:03 AM »
Yerusha,

You realize that according to the midrash you refer to, the battle against Armilus will occur with Moshiach Ben Yosef, not Moshiach Ben David...

As you and I know it is possible that Moshiach Ben Yosef may already have died (as he is supposed to according to the sages). You have stated you believe it possible that Rabbi Kahane fulfilled a mission of Moshiach Ben Yosef (MBY)...


Quote
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101747/jewish/Appendix-II.htm

The principal and final function ascribed to Mashiach ben Yossef is of political and military nature. He shall wage war against the forces of evil that oppress Israel. More specifically, he will do battle against Edom, the descendants of Esau.5 Edom is the comprehensive designation of the enemies of Israel,6 and it will be crushed through the progeny of Joseph. Thus it was prophesied of old, "The House of Jacob will be a fire and the House of Joseph a flame, and the House of Esau for stubble.." (Obadiah 1:18): "the progeny of Esau shall be delivered only into the hands of the progeny of Joseph."7

This ultimate confrontation between Joseph and Esau is alluded already in the very birth of Joseph when his mother Rachel exclaimed, "G‑d has taken away my disgrace" (Genesis 30:23): with prophetic vision she foresaw that an "anointed savior" will descend from Joseph and that he will remove the disgrace of Israel.8 In this context she called his name "Yossef, saying 'yossef Hashem - may G‑d add to me ben acher (lit., another son), i.e., ben acharono shel olam - one who will be at the end of the world's time,'9 from which it follows that 'meshu'ach milchamah - one anointed for battle' will descend from Joseph."10

The immediate results of this war11 will be disastrous: Mashiach ben Yossef will be killed. This is described in the prophecy of Zechariah, who says of this tragedy that "they shall mourn him as one mourns for an only child." (Zechariah 12:10).12 His death will be followed by a period of great calamities. These new tribulations shall be the final test for Israel, and shortly thereafter Mashiach ben David shall come, avenge his death, resurrect him, and inaugurate the Messianic era of everlasting peace and bliss.13



5) Note that the final battle of Mashiach ben Yossef is said to be against Armilus, ruler of Edom. See the Messianic Midrashim Zerubavel; Agadat Mashiach; Vayosha etc. (Specific references are offered in R. Margolius, Malachei Elyon, part II, s.v. Armilas; and see also the sources cited below, notes 18-19.)

   
6) Edom is the perpetual enemy of Israel (see Sifre, Beha'alotecha, par. 69, cited by Rashi on Genesis 33:4; and see also Megilah 6a) and its final foe: the present galut is referred to as the galut of Edom (see Bereishit Rabba 44:17; Vayikra Rabba 13:5; and parallel passages) and Edom will be defeated ultimately by Mashiach (Obadiah; Yoma 10a; Midrash Tehilim 6:2; and cf. Tanchuma, Bo:4).

Interestingly enough, according to Pirkei deR. Eliezer ch. 28 (in non-censored versions), the Ishmaelites (Arabs) will be the final kingdom to be defeated by Mashiach. Other sources state "Edom and Ishmael" (see Torah Shelemah on Genesis 15:12, note 130). Note, however, Pirkei deR. Eliezer, ch. 44 (and cf. Midrash Tehilim 2:6 and 83:3) that Edom and Ishmael have become intermingled. See also Mayanei Hayeshu'ah, Mayan 11:8.

7)   Baba Batra 123b. Targum Yehonathan on Genesis 30:23. Tanchuma, ed. Buber, Vayetze:15; and Bereishit Rabba 73:7; and the parallel passages cited there. See Bereishit Rabba 99:2, that Edom shall fall by the meshu'ach milchamah (the one anointed for battle; see below, note 10 for this term) who will be descended from Joseph.

Mashiach ben Yossef's battle against Edom is analogous to, and the culmination of, Israel's first battle against Edom (Amalek) after the exodus from Egypt (Exodus 17:5ff.). In that first battle, the Jewish army was led by Joshua - who is also of the tribe of Ephraim, and (according to some) this Mashiach's ancestor (see above note 2); see Ramban on Exodus 17:9, and R. Bachaya on Exodus 18:1. Cf. also R. Bachaya on Exodus 1:5, drawing an analogy between the role of Joseph in Egypt and the role of the Mashiach descended from him in the ultimate redemption.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2015, 02:36:17 AM »
Some more of what Yerusha revealed above...

http://www.israel613.com/geula1.htm

  The general mission of Moshiach Ben Yosef is threefold: revelation of the mysteries of Torah, ingathering of the exiles, and removal of the impure spirit from the land.

Ingathering of the exiles encompasses three tasks: building Jerusalem, gathering in the exiles, and fulfilling the commandments dependent upon the Land. All these are alluded to in the following possukim: "Who will ascend the mountain of the Lord? " (Tehillim 24:3), referring to the ingathering of exiles (the head-letters of which — mem-bais-yud — are the initials of ‘Moshiach Ben Yosef’); "Who will stand up in the place of His sanctuary" (Ibid.), referring to building (the head-letters of which — mem-yud-bais — are the initials of ‘Moshiach Ben Yosef’); "He will receive a blessing from the Lord" (Tehillim 24:5), refers to something that carries with it a blessing, such as planting (the head-letters of which — yud-bais-mem — are the initials of ‘Moshiach Ben Yosef’). (Kol HaTor, Chapter 1:6:A)

The approach of the Gaon is summarized by, "Yosef is still alive" (Bereishis 45:26), which means that the Moshiach Ben Yosef is still alive — and will live — because, as it is written, every aspect of the ‘Beginning of the Redemption’ is dependent upon him. Thus the decree regarding his death by Armilus the Wicked will be canceled . . . by extending the period of the exile, through the afflictions that Moshiach Ben Yosef will suffer and the diseases he will bear, and also by deeds that he will accomplish with great devotion, such as gathering in exiles, which is his mission. Messianic difficulties and afflictions connected with Eretz Israel will also help, as well as our regular, daily prayers for the life and success of Moshiach Ben Yosef. Those who occupy themselves with gathering in the exiles lighten the suffering of Moshiach Ben Yosef during the period called ‘Footsteps of the Moshiach.’ The decree regarding the death of Moshiach Ben Yosef will be completed in smaller parts, as in the parable recounted in the Midrash of a king who became angry with his son and swore to throw a big stone at him. Afterwards, he regretted what he had said and had compassion on him. However, in order to fulfill his vow, he broke up the big stone into many smaller ones, and them at his son one at a time. Thus the son was not killed, though he suffered from the small stones. These are the ‘Pangs of the Moshiach’; the suffering will come gradually . . . (Ibid.)

 You will arise and show Tzion mercy, for the time to favor her, for the appointed time (moed) will have come. For, Your servants have cherished her stones and favor her dust. (Tehillim 102:-14-15)

  The beginning of everything large or small that can be done during the Period of Moshiach is through the ‘me’yudim’ — designated ‘emissaries’ — messengers of Above at the beginning of the redemption. They initiate the ‘ye'udim’ — specific ‘events’ — and the two of them together result in the ‘moadim’ — the appointed ‘times’ — the end-times, the specific times of the different levels during the period of the beginning . . . The Me’yudim initiate the ye’udim which bring closer the moadim, and a proof for this is, "You will arise and show Tzion mercy, for the time to favor her, for the appointed time will have come" (Tehillim 102:14). When, after "your servants have cherished her stones, and favor her dust. Then the nations will fear the Name of G-d, and all the kings of the earth, Your glory. For G-d will have built Tzion, He will have appeared in His glory" (Ibid. 15-17). Then, the redemption will begin, just as in the days of Koresh and the Second Temple, with the permission of the kings of the land, just as our rabbis have said in the Yerushalmi and the Tosfos Yom Tov. . . (Kol HaTor, Chapter 4:3)

 A major principle in work involved in the ‘Footsteps of Moshiach’ is that all three central principles, ‘designated deeds,’ ‘times,’ and ‘emissaries,’ must be unified as a "threefold cord that does not tear" (Koheles 4:12). This refers to the deeds, times, and messengers alluded to in the posuk, "The righteous blossoms are seen in the land, the time of your song has arrived, and the voice of the turtledove (kol hator) is heard in the land" (Shir HaShirim 2:12). "The righteous blossoms are seen" refers to the deeds; "the time of your song" refers to the designated times; "the voice of the turtledove" refers to the emissaries. Similarly, in the verse, "For the time to favor her, for the appointed time (moed) will have come. For, Your servants have cherished her stones and favor her dust." (Tehillim 102:-14-15). And, the verse, "There is a time for everything" (Koheles 3:17), means that the time has come according to Israel’s desire at the time of the awakening from below. (Kol HaTor, 4:2)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2015, 03:37:33 AM »
From the Vilna Gaons own Kol HaTor, the following revelations concerning this battle can be found.



Yosef is still alive. -- The independence of Mashiach ben Yosef is related
to three categories: a) the Mashiach ben Yosef from above is Metatron,
the Minister of Interior; as is known, Yosef is Metatron. Both of them are
from the light from above, and both are in the sefira Yesod, and active in
the war against Armilus (especially in the war of Gog and Magog). He is
helped by Seraiah ben Dan. b) In every generation one Mashiach ben
Yosef from below appears. He is a righteous person, a foundation of the
world, who because of his deeds and the root of his soul, merits acting
for the salvation of Israel, carrying out helpful deeds and glorifying the
Torah through his dedication. Thus he reaches to the high level of
Mashiach ben Yosef, which is 999 in the sefira Yesod.c) Mashiach ben
Yosef who is present in every house of Israel in general, according to
what is revealed by the words “remnant of Yosef” which was said about
all of Israel in general and regarding every man of Israel in particular.
Mashiach ben Yosef resides within the 999 sparks of many a soul in
Israel, in those who merit carrying out deeds that promote the
ingathering of exiles, etc. Whoever merits, on the basis of his deeds as
well as the merits of his forefathers, carrying out deeds that are
characteristic of Mashiach ben Yosef, is considered a spark from the
root of the soul of Mashiach ben Yosef -- each according to the level of
his deeds.

21. Yosef is still alive. All three Hebrew words are from the sefira Yesod.The
first word od’ is in the sefira of Hod, on the left side line. ‘Yosef’ is from
the sefira Yesod of the middle line. ‘Chai’ is from Nezach of Yesod on
the right side line.

22. Yosef is still alive. The light of Mashiach ben Yosef has three levels: a)
Mashiach ben Yosef from the land, in line with Yosef, son of Rachel,
from the aspect of recipient. b) Mashiach ben Yosef from Heaven in line
with Yosef son of Jacob, from the aspect of one who gives and
influences. c) Mashiach ben Yosef from both Heaven and Earth,
revealed in the words “even all in the Heavens and Earth.” is in the sefira
Yesod. In gematria “all in the Heavens and Earth” equals Mashiach ben
Efraim” [741]. Likewise the value of “horn of salvation, ” is 741 in
gematria, and, according to the Gaon, this refers to Mashiach ben
Efraim. Every act of ransom and saving by Mashiach ben Yosef is aided
by Mashiach ben David in line with the incident in which Judah saved
Joseph. According to what is written: “What profit is it if we sell our
brother and cover up his blood?” etc. By saving Yosef, Judah merited
being the one from whom the kingdom of David descended.

23. Yosef is still alive. Our forefathers and many of the Prophets of God,
kings of Israel, and many of the Tannaim and Amoraim, many of the
great men of Israel and the men of deeds in every generation were in the
line of Mashiach ben Yosef. The first one was our forefather Abraham,
as revealed in the words, “whereby will I know that I will inherit it?” As
known, wherever the term inheritance’ is used in connection with Eretz
Israel, it is in the line of Mashiach ben Yosef.This is hinted at in the word
“I will inherit” which in gematria equals Mashiach ben Yosef [566]. Our
forefather Abraham started the beginning of the first Redemption, that is
the redemption of the holiness from below, which is the land of the Land
of Israel [Eretz Israel]. Our forefather Isaac was in the line of the
Mashiach ben Yosef from the time he was bound as a sacrifice. His
name even hints at " end of life. Our forefather Jacob was in the line of
Mashiach ben Yosef from the time he fought the Angel of Esau, after
which it says, “Jacob came to Shalem.” Shalem, to Succoth. Judah was
in the same line, from the time he saved Yosef; Yosef, from the time of
his first dream; Moshe Rebbeinu, from the time he took along the bones
of Yosef. Joshua son of Nun was the first who fought in the battle of the
Lord against Amalek. Both Saul and David fought in the war of the Lord.
And it is known that every war of the Lord is considered to be in the line
of Mashiach ben Yosef, etc., etc. During recent generations, the Holy Ari
and his special student, the holy and pure R. Chaim Vital, and the Holy
Rabbi, author of Or Hachaim were also in the line of Mashiach ben Yosef
as is known. And in the last generation, it was the Gaon, our Rabbi,
Rabbi Eliyahu, light of Mashiach ben Yosef whose light goes before us,
and whose light increases until the day will be established. A few of his
students, who fulfilled his commandment regarding the vision of Zion to
accept and be inspired with his spirit and his great light, are also in the
line of Mashiach ben Yosef.

 Yosef is still alive. A righteous person lives by his faith. Together with
all our activities connected with the mission of Mashiach ben Yosef, we
are commanded and it is incumbent upon us to pray a great deal for the
life and success of Mashiach ben Yosef. Our entire existence is revealed
by the words “remnant of Yosef, ” through whom the ingathering of
exiles will be accomplished. This refers to the Mashiach ben Yosef from
below who is present in every generation. We must pray that he not be
killed by the wicked Armilus, that he should not die before he carries out
completely his holy mission, that he should be able to stand up against
Armilus who seeks to cause him to fail in all his ways; that he should
maintain his faith in his great and holy mission until his last day. This is
what is meant by, “a righteous person lives by his faith, ” referring to
Mashiach ben Yosef from above--that his light should not go out, the
light that connects the middle column of the [the Shechina] with our
Father in Heaven which is the center bolt that connects Yesod and
Malchut as well as Yesod to Tiferet in the middle line, the line of
Compassion. King David, of blessed memory, prayed many prayers on
behalf of Mashiach ben Yosef, that he should not die, but Israel’s poverty
should help annul the decree against Mashiach ben Yosef, as revealed
by the words, “I was brought low, and He saved me” which is one of the
prayers that King David, of blessed memory, prayed on behalf of
Mashiach ben Yosef, as explained by the Gaon. We are especially
obligated to pray as follows (the English translation follows the Hebrew
paragraph):
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yehudayaakov

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2015, 05:16:34 AM »
 Moshiach Ben Yosef 'd better come now coz war with enemies within coming to Israel and with the fith column fascisterev rav ruling the land it 's gonna hard to win with  kappo jews stab in the back and barbarians in region gathering at  the borders.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2015, 05:20:18 AM »
I don't know of any anti-messiah character, not by that name. Perhaps you mean Gog. In christian scriptures there is the anti-Christ. I think it is confusing (and perhaps you are confused yourself) to use the anti-messiah term which to my knowledge there is no such term.

Offline Yehudayaakov

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2015, 08:13:16 AM »
 Deal would be to Bring the Moshiach Ben Yosef whom with His  tactical strategic skills will  crush our sworn enemies waiting at the borders; from within the erev rav fifth column  and his army of arabezombies then call for the coming of  Moshiach Ben David to save  Moshiach Ben Yosef and Israel her children with Him thus bringing the revenge of Israel children over her enemies.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2015, 09:14:04 AM »
Ephraim didn't ask about Mashiach ben Yosef (which is sort of  a fantasy character too).

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015, 10:13:03 AM »
How could an evil leader take the Temple after it is rebuilt? Won't the Messiah be here, the Shekinah return , and prophecy return? Won't the redemption began?
Could Gog be the pallywoods leader and the dome of the rock?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2015, 10:13:47 AM »
Who is Seraiah ben Dan?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Serious question.
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2015, 09:16:22 PM »
Who is Seraiah ben Dan?

I am not fully certain but it seems it may be a prophet of Israel named Seraiah who is mentioned in the book of Jeramaiah (Yirmiyahu)...

Jeremiah 51:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16048

59 The word that Jeremiah the prophet commanded Seraiah the son of Neriah the son of Mahseiah, when he went with Zedekiah the king of Judah to Babylon in the fourth year of his reign, and Seraiah was the prince of tribute.
60 And Jeremiah wrote all the evil that would befall Babylon in one scroll, all these words that are written concerning Babylon.
61 And Jeremiah said to Seraiah, "When you come to Babylon, you shall see and read all these words.
62 And you shall say, 'O Lord, You have spoken concerning this place to cut it off, that it have no inhabitant, either man or beast, but it shall be forever desolate.'
63 And it shall come to pass that when you finish reading this scroll, you shall tie a stone to it and cast it into the Euphrates.
64 And you shall say, 'So shall Babylon sink and not rise, because of the evil that I bring upon her, and they shall weary." Until here are the words of Jeremiah.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14