Author Topic: About Poland  (Read 943 times)

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Offline Fennec

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About Poland
« on: November 07, 2015, 04:09:11 PM »
Hello guys,

my name is Piotr (or Peter if you like) and I'm Polish.

I've joined the forum after I've watched this video on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp9i0lpd3BY

with an intention to ask you couple of questions about it. To be honest, I forgot about it at the time, but I came across it again recently and I've decided to start a thread here. Video shows some pictures of fans of FC Lviv, which is Ukrainian football team. Their "patron" is Stepan Bandera, Ukrainian nationalist, who in fact did collaborate with Nazi Germany and - for example - ordered to conduct massacre of approx. 100 000 Polish civilians in Wolhynia. The thing is, that the narrator suggest, that these people are Polish. I'm not sure, what's the reason for that. I wouldn't suspect that he didn't know that these pictures are not from Poland, while montaging the video. And by the way, exposing any kind of Nazi or communist symbols is absolutely forbidden here.

Another interesting thing, is that he implies, that Poland is making money on tourists, who come to visit Auschwitz-Birkenau Muzeum. Truth is, every year Polish taxpayer needs to cover around half of the Museums expenses, so it's hardly a profitable business.

For the record, I'm not at all trying to be hostile, I'm just trying to understand a few things here. As I read couple of threads in this forum, I've noticed that your knowledge about what happened during WWII is entirely different, than ours. So let me ask you, do you truly believe, that "Poland is a Nazi country", as Dan193 stated in "Polish Pig Anti-Semites" topic; that majority of Poles participated in murdering Polish Jews; that they were glad Germans invaded Poland and murdered millions of people? Again, these are legitimate questions, influenced by many posts I've read here.

Also, how does it apply to the fact, that 90% of European Jewry lived in Poland before the war? What were they doing there, if they constantly had to deal with aggressive antisemitism, as some people claim? What about the fact, that 3 million ethnic Poles were killed? Or, that Auschwitz camp was established by the Germans originally for Poles in 1940 (mainly for Polish elite) and Jews were brought there two years later? Or, that Poland was the only country in Nazi-occupied Europe, in which any help provided to a Jew (and by "help" I don't only mean giving a shelter, but also sharing food, trading or even pointing a direction) was penalized by immidiate death - and not only for the "perpetrator", but for his entire family, most of the times also their neighbours, and sometimes, entire villages. Why did Nazi Germany need to use such drastic measures in order to scare Poles off the idea of helping their Jewish fellow citizens? And why it is still Poland (despite this unique terror Germans applied), that is home to the greatest amount of Righteous Among the Nations according to Yad Vashem institute? Also, Yad Vashem doesn't count cases, that weren't reported to them, as well as those, in which Poles were murdered along with Jews they've been giving shelter to.

I would like to know, if you actually believe, that Poles are (or were) some kind of unbelievable monsters, who really did help Nazi Germany murder 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Poles. I would really like it to be a serious discussion, I'm not here to offend anyone and I hope we will be able to exchange views and facts about our common history in a respectful manner.

Offline cjd

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2015, 06:15:53 PM »
Hello guys,

my name is Piotr (or Peter if you like) and I'm Polish.

I've joined the forum after I've watched this video on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp9i0lpd3BY

with an intention to ask you couple of questions about it. To be honest, I forgot about it at the time, but I came across it again recently and I've decided to start a thread here. Video shows some pictures of fans of FC Lviv, which is Ukrainian football team. Their "patron" is Stepan Bandera, Ukrainian nationalist, who in fact did collaborate with Nazi Germany and - for example - ordered to conduct massacre of approx. 100 000 Polish civilians in Wolhynia. The thing is, that the narrator suggest, that these people are Polish. I'm not sure, what's the reason for that. I wouldn't suspect that he didn't know that these pictures are not from Poland, while montaging the video. And by the way, exposing any kind of Nazi or communist symbols is absolutely forbidden here.

Another interesting thing, is that he implies, that Poland is making money on tourists, who come to visit Auschwitz-Birkenau Muzeum. Truth is, every year Polish taxpayer needs to cover around half of the Museums expenses, so it's hardly a profitable business.

For the record, I'm not at all trying to be hostile, I'm just trying to understand a few things here. As I read couple of threads in this forum, I've noticed that your knowledge about what happened during WWII is entirely different, than ours. So let me ask you, do you truly believe, that "Poland is a Nazi country", as Dan193 stated in "Polish Pig Anti-Semites" topic; that majority of Poles participated in murdering Polish Jews; that they were glad Germans invaded Poland and murdered millions of people? Again, these are legitimate questions, influenced by many posts I've read here.

Also, how does it apply to the fact, that 90% of European Jewry lived in Poland before the war? What were they doing there, if they constantly had to deal with aggressive antisemitism, as some people claim? What about the fact, that 3 million ethnic Poles were killed? Or, that Auschwitz camp was established by the Germans originally for Poles in 1940 (mainly for Polish elite) and Jews were brought there two years later? Or, that Poland was the only country in Nazi-occupied Europe, in which any help provided to a Jew (and by "help" I don't only mean giving a shelter, but also sharing food, trading or even pointing a direction) was penalized by immidiate death - and not only for the "perpetrator", but for his entire family, most of the times also their neighbours, and sometimes, entire villages. Why did Nazi Germany need to use such drastic measures in order to scare Poles off the idea of helping their Jewish fellow citizens? And why it is still Poland (despite this unique terror Germans applied), that is home to the greatest amount of Righteous Among the Nations according to Yad Vashem institute? Also, Yad Vashem doesn't count cases, that weren't reported to them, as well as those, in which Poles were murdered along with Jews they've been giving shelter to.
I would like to know, if you actually believe, that Poles are (or were) some kind of unbelievable monsters, who really did help Nazi Germany murder 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million Poles. I would really like it to be a serious discussion, I'm not here to offend anyone and I hope we will be able to exchange views and facts about our common history in a respectful manner.

Let me put it this way... History does not paint a nice picture... From all I have read over the years it is quite clear that a good part of Gentile Poles saw the Nazi occupation  of Poland as a opportunity to rid Poland of it's Jewish Population once and for all... Even Italy who was allied with the Nazi government did far more to shelter it's Jewish population until the very end when Germany took over after the Fascist Italian government collapsed and some Jewish population was lost... Many Polish Jews actually immigrated there early on from Poland and managed to survive... The population of Poland however could not turn Jews over fast enough... I guess Poland, Germany and France suffer from revisionism when it comes to how it treated it's Jewish citizens... On another note you say that Poland puts back most of the tourist money it makes into it's Auschwitz-Birkenau Muzeum which may or may not be the case... I am sure however hotel and the local tourist service industry do quite well... I am quite sure far more money is being made due to places like this existing there  that folks there would like to admit.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 06:28:17 PM by cjd »
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Offline Fennec

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2015, 07:45:48 PM »
Thank you, I appreciate your response.

I wouldn't say it's revisionism (for Poles; Germans and French are in different category in this one), since for us, the status quo was clear from the very beginning. It was only couple of years ago (I suppose, somewhere around collapse of communism), that we've started to hear accusations about what Poles may or may have not done during WWII in regards with Polish Jews. In this sense, what I say is a response to this, not revision.

You've mentioned, that Italy was doing better in sheltering their Jews, up until Germans took over. Well, that's pretty much the point. In Poland, Germans and Russians took over right from the very beginning. Entire Polish elites were either killed on the streets or in death camps, or deported for ex. to Siberia (most of them died there). There were no local authorities in power (unlike in Italy and practically everywhere else), the government fled and Polish state ceised to exist (part was included to Third Reich, other part to the Soviet Union and the rest was called General Government). Every sign of resistance was punishable by death, not to mention helping Polish Jews, which I talked about earlier. We were torn apart by two of the greatest powers in Europe and we've been independent only for 20 years at the time, (Poland was partitioned before, in 1795 and regained independence in 1918). What I'm trying to say is that we've been in no position to help ourselves, let alone anyone else. Reports about what was going on (made for example by Karski or Pilecki, who actually volunteered to be caught and locked in Auschwitz in order to gain intel and report it to allies) were completely ignored by the rest of the world. After Karski told the American President about the Holocaust, FDR started to ask him about the wellbeing of horses in Poland.

You've mentioned, that "The population of Poland however could not turn Jews over fast enough". I've heard about this accusation before, yet I couldn't find any evidence to that. Quite the opposite, to be honest. Are you able to provide any kind of source?

Also, I would like to recommend a great book to everyone, who is interested in the subject. It's called Scroll of Agony: The Warsaw Diary of Chaim A. Kaplan and it was written by Warsaw Hebrew teacher during the occupation. I will go ahead and paste a few quotes, if you don't mind.

"You will not find one single public-spirited citizen among them [the Poles] who is willing to be the conquerors' representative, to talk to his people and make them realize that they cannot change reality and must accept the yoke of German rule--like Hacha in Czechoslovakia and Quisling in Norway. We could also add Petain in France, that stupid old man who willingly said Kaddish for his country."

"Nazi pride is unlimited. The Poles and the Jews are classed together as if they were both `natives' of African jungles. Both were supposedly created only to serve the conqueror."

"At heart, the conqueror hates the Poles more deeply than the Jews. Once the head of the Warsaw district, Dr. Fischer, said, `The Poles we hate instinctively; the Jews we hate in accordance with orders."

"We thought that the `Jewish badge' would provide the local population with a source of mockery and ridicule--but we were wrong. There is no attitude of disrespect nor of making much of another's dishonor. Just the opposite. They show that they commiserate with us in our humiliation. They sit silent in the street cars, and in private conversation they even express words of condolence and encouragement. `Better times will come."

"Common suffering has drawn all hearts closer, and the barbaric persecutions of the Jews have even aroused feelings of sympathy towards them. "


Obviously, this is just the tip of the iceberg, let me know, if you want me to provide more sources proving, that our common past wasn't like many are trying to describe it. I suppose, some people just enjoy stirring the hate between the others. And I think, that the propaganda, such as the one in the video I've posted link to, has it's goal, and one of it's products, is antagonising entire nations. I would just hate to see this happen, which is the reason I reach out to you. I hope you will understand.




Offline Israel Chai

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2015, 08:29:07 PM »
My Great-Grandfather was a lord with a lot of lands in Poland. I can still claim it. For the same reason my Grandma won't take the monthly Nazi blood money, I don't want an inch of that soil.

I know a lot of cool Polish people here, but as for the nation itself, I can give plenty of personal sources of the Poles turning over my family the first chance they got.
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Offline Lisa

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Offline Lisa

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 09:21:56 PM »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2480159/New-WW2-film-Aftermath-reveals-shame-Polish-town-Jedwabne-Jews-slaughtered.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaL_uyEcaM8


http://www.logtv.com/films/jedwabne/

I would also like to add that Chaim Ben Pesach's family is from Poland.  His lovely mother, who I met in person said flat out that the Poles have always hated Jews with a fury. 

Offline syyuge

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2015, 01:59:28 AM »
Jews will be at their best and Zenith only in Greater Israel.
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Offline Fennec

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2015, 07:01:18 AM »
Thank you all for your responses.


You've mentioned opinions of your relatives and friends, who thankfully survived the Holocaust. As much as I respect them, we can't deny that they're just that - opinions. So, what about the facts I've mentioned earlier (which are, as I said, only the tip of the iceberg)?

As for Jedwabne, there's a large discussion about this subject here in Poland. The discussion you probably haven't heard about, since the world media suggests, that everything is clarified (and conveniently simple for that matter; as one of the headlines shouted: Christian half slaughtered Jewish half, then blamed the Nazis). I won't comment on the movie, because I didn't see it, but it's a drama, not a documentary.

The truth is, that the entire media attention to Jedwabne, was drawn after the publication of a book written by a dude, who's not even a historian and who not only deliberately ommited the most important facts, but also fabricated another ones. As many historians here proved, every page is practically filled with errors.

As Alexander B. Rossino, historian at the Holocaust Museum in
Washington, D.C. writes in an article to be published in Polin,
Volume 16, 2003: "The evidence collected by the West Germans,
including the positive identification of [Hauptsturmfuehrer Herman]
Schaper by witnesses from £omza, Tykocin, and Radzilów, suggested
that it was indeed Schaper's men who carried out the killings in
those locations. Investigators also suspected, based on the
similarity of the methods used to destroy the Jewish communities of
Radzilów, Tykocin, Rutki, Zambrów, Jedwabne, Piatnica, and Wizna
between July and September 1941 that Schaper's men were the
perpetrators... The method used to kill the Jews of Jedwabne was
exactly the same that had been employed by the Gestapo
[Einsatsgruppen] to kill the Jews of Radzilow only three days
earlier."


http://www.internationalresearchcenter.org/en/holocaust-forgotten-or-revisited/the-truth-about-jedwabne-and-the-heroic-deeds-of-the-polish-nation-in-the-20th-century

Back in 2001, the investigation in Jedwabne began. It was established, that the barn was lit on fire with use of gasoline (not available for Poles) and that many victims had beed shot (shells from Mauser and Walter were found on site). I hope that I don't have to mention, that owning a firearm by a Pole was punishable by death.

Unfortunately, the investigation had to be terminated, because of the opposition of a local Rabbi. Which is the reason we pretty much can't conclude anything. But whole thing simply doesn't make any sense, since all the similar killings in Poland were conducted by the Germans. Why would this one be an exception?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rj2AtKwtuM


In Poland, we're pretty much certain, that Germany is doing what it can, to whitewash the history and blame the victim. We're supposed to be a scapegoat in someone's politics. The side product of this, are books like the one of Gross's. Some people just find it a profitable business to stir animosities, as well as to dance on the graves of the victims.

I would just like you to try to understand, how tired and - given our history - frustrated we are of all the accusations based on lies and someones opinions. This war destroyed our country almost entirely, in Jalta the Allies sold us to Stalin, all our elites were murdered, the third of our soil was stole by the Soviets, who installed puppet government made of morons and criminals. We were condemned for 50 years and it is very easy to accuse someone of something, when he's not able to defend himself, because he's tide up and gagged. We have a feeling, that the world is glad to hear about our supposed "crimes", since it's guilty itself of gross misconduct, when it comes to how it treated us during WWII. And while we are being accused of antisemitism even today, let me remind you, that Poland is home to the largest Jewish festivals in Europe. We've just built Museum of the History of the Polish Jews (for which the taxpayer paid $100 000 000 and which can't be sustained without yearly government donations):

http://archrecord.construction.com/projects/Building_Types_Study/museums/2013/images/1312-Museum-of-the-History-of-Polish-Jews-Lahdelma-and-Mahlamaki-Architects-3.jpg

Just so you know, this is Museum of Katyn:

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/13384960.jpg

At the end of this long post, I will just leave a short piece of interview with Wladyslaw Szpilman (the original Pianist):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70anp7mYDh4

There are no subtitles, so I will go ahead and translate it myself. You can verify it with someone, who speaks Polish:

And these are the Poles, indeed. And you know, if I was caught, all of them are going up against the wall. This is typical symptom of Poland, believe me. If it's necessary to sacrifice life - they will go ahead and do it, immediately. When there's peace, they argue, I don't know why [laughs]. But when there's a danger - they will sacrifice their lifes immediately.

Good day to all of you.

Offline mord

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2015, 09:43:28 AM »
Stepan Bandera, was one evil bastard he massacred Polish Jews and Christians and he wasn't a Pole
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2015, 10:12:22 AM »
Thank you all for your responses.


You've mentioned opinions of your relatives and friends, who thankfully survived the Holocaust. As much as I respect them, we can't deny that they're just that - opinions. So, what about the facts I've mentioned earlier (which are, as I said, only the tip of the iceberg)?

As for Jedwabne, there's a large discussion about this subject here in Poland. The discussion you probably haven't heard about, since the world media suggests, that everything is clarified (and conveniently simple for that matter; as one of the headlines shouted: Christian half slaughtered Jewish half, then blamed the Nazis). I won't comment on the movie, because I didn't see it, but it's a drama, not a documentary.

The truth is, that the entire media attention to Jedwabne, was drawn after the publication of a book written by a dude, who's not even a historian and who not only deliberately ommited the most important facts, but also fabricated another ones. As many historians here proved, every page is practically filled with errors.

As Alexander B. Rossino, historian at the Holocaust Museum in
Washington, D.C. writes in an article to be published in Polin,
Volume 16, 2003: "The evidence collected by the West Germans,
including the positive identification of [Hauptsturmfuehrer Herman]
Schaper by witnesses from £omza, Tykocin, and Radzilów, suggested
that it was indeed Schaper's men who carried out the killings in
those locations. Investigators also suspected, based on the
similarity of the methods used to destroy the Jewish communities of
Radzilów, Tykocin, Rutki, Zambrów, Jedwabne, Piatnica, and Wizna
between July and September 1941 that Schaper's men were the
perpetrators... The method used to kill the Jews of Jedwabne was
exactly the same that had been employed by the Gestapo
[Einsatsgruppen] to kill the Jews of Radzilow only three days
earlier."


http://www.internationalresearchcenter.org/en/holocaust-forgotten-or-revisited/the-truth-about-jedwabne-and-the-heroic-deeds-of-the-polish-nation-in-the-20th-century

Back in 2001, the investigation in Jedwabne began. It was established, that the barn was lit on fire with use of gasoline (not available for Poles) and that many victims had beed shot (shells from Mauser and Walter were found on site). I hope that I don't have to mention, that owning a firearm by a Pole was punishable by death.

Unfortunately, the investigation had to be terminated, because of the opposition of a local Rabbi. Which is the reason we pretty much can't conclude anything. But whole thing simply doesn't make any sense, since all the similar killings in Poland were conducted by the Germans. Why would this one be an exception?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rj2AtKwtuM


In Poland, we're pretty much certain, that Germany is doing what it can, to whitewash the history and blame the victim. We're supposed to be a scapegoat in someone's politics. The side product of this, are books like the one of Gross's. Some people just find it a profitable business to stir animosities, as well as to dance on the graves of the victims.

I would just like you to try to understand, how tired and - given our history - frustrated we are of all the accusations based on lies and someones opinions. This war destroyed our country almost entirely, in Jalta the Allies sold us to Stalin, all our elites were murdered, the third of our soil was stole by the Soviets, who installed puppet government made of morons and criminals. We were condemned for 50 years and it is very easy to accuse someone of something, when he's not able to defend himself, because he's tide up and gagged. We have a feeling, that the world is glad to hear about our supposed "crimes", since it's guilty itself of gross misconduct, when it comes to how it treated us during WWII. And while we are being accused of antisemitism even today, let me remind you, that Poland is home to the largest Jewish festivals in Europe. We've just built Museum of the History of the Polish Jews (for which the taxpayer paid $100 000 000 and which can't be sustained without yearly government donations):

http://archrecord.construction.com/projects/Building_Types_Study/museums/2013/images/1312-Museum-of-the-History-of-Polish-Jews-Lahdelma-and-Mahlamaki-Architects-3.jpg

Just so you know, this is Museum of Katyn:

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/13384960.jpg

At the end of this long post, I will just leave a short piece of interview with Wladyslaw Szpilman (the original Pianist):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70anp7mYDh4

There are no subtitles, so I will go ahead and translate it myself. You can verify it with someone, who speaks Polish:

And these are the Poles, indeed. And you know, if I was caught, all of them are going up against the wall. This is typical symptom of Poland, believe me. If it's necessary to sacrifice life - they will go ahead and do it, immediately. When there's peace, they argue, I don't know why [laughs]. But when there's a danger - they will sacrifice their lifes immediately.

Good day to all of you.

An opinion is a statement of belief, a testimony is a historical witness. We have letters. There's numerous books on the subject you can go into if you're really interested http://www.timesofisrael.com/new-book-examines-poles-who-killed-jews-during-wwii/, I know for a fact that after WW2 was over, Poles were killing Jews that returned for their property, no Nazis to make them do it. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007941
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Offline Fennec

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2015, 12:08:50 PM »
Yes, you are correct, such incidents as killing Jews by the Poles after war indeed occurred. As far as I'm concerned, there is one proper scientific study about this subject published, and it's a book called "After the Holocaust: Polish-Jewish Conflict in the Wake of World War II" by Dr Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, historian of University of Virginia. It's a number of researches the author conducted, based on which he estimates, that between 1944-1947, from 253-615 Jews were killed in Poland. The motives were various, the most common were: antisemitism, robbery, false perception of danger (stranger in the village could've been seen as NKVD officer, etc.). Therefore, in many cases, the reason for murder was not outright hatred for Jews. Although, there is absolutely no denying, that it's despicable that such incidents occured. According to Chodakiewicz, in the same period, between 258 to 580 Poles were killed by the Jews, also for various reasons. Book contains for example a description of a case, where Jewish woman (out of gratitude for ending the war) turned over an entire group of local Polish underground resistance to the Soviets. They all ended up in gulag, including a person, who gave this woman a shelter for three years during the war. However you don't see me claiming, that "after war, Jews murdered Poles, no Nazi/Soviets making them to do so". It simply shows, that every nation has it's criminals and degenerates, which shouldn't be so much of a surprise. Also, the war (let alone, the biggest conflict in human history) reveals the worst instincts in some. Disrespect for human life and property rights are some of them, as Chaim A. Kaplan, to which I reffered earlier, also said. The thesis, that Poles - as a nation in general - murdered Jews, is simply not true and in order come up with it, you need to completely ignore all the facts I've mentioned earlier, plus everything else that is known about this period.

And by the way, the property that belonged to Jews (and all victims for that matter), was confiscated by (firstly) Third Reich and later by the Communist State. Those who survived, could've reclaimed it after the war. The rest of the property was sold by the communist government to those, who wanted to buy it.


As for Kielce Pogrom, there is also completely no denying, that what happened, was outrageous. However, like in every criminal case, you have to look at the context of the incident. First of all, it doesn't make too much sense, that it was done by the civilians. Nothing like it happened before nor after. Second of all, it's well documented, that the communist militia was there at the time and actually started the riots by opening fire. There's a handful of proof, that it was conducted entirely by militia, communist secret police and some criminal Polish element. To understand, why would they do it, you have to look at Polands' political situation at the time.

In the internal politics of the Polish People’s Republic, it was also a matter of drawing public attention away from the falsified results of a national referendum, which had taken place only two days earlier: on June 30, 1946. Despite the communist propaganda calling on the population to vote “Thrice Yes,” Poles voted “No” all three times. The pogrom and the authorities’ reaction to it drew attention away from this manipulated referendum. They also drew the world’s attention away from the issue of the Katyń Forest Massacre, which was being reviewed by the Nuremberg War Tribunals at the time. In 1946, Roman Andrzejewicz Rudenko, the lead prosecutor of the USSR during the Nuremberg Trials (later, he became the Prosecutor General of the USSR) presented the indictment concerning the murder of around 11,000 Polish army officers in Katyń by the Third Reich. Because the trial was not proceeding exactly as the USSR would have liked it to, it was necessary to draw the public’s attention away by using a subject about which the world was very sensitive at the time. And so, on July 4, 1946, when the material evidence concerning the Katyń Forest Massacre was being presented to the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg, the trial began to proceed in a direction inimical to Soviet interests. Stalin was well aware that this would happen, and so he needed an event to take place which would effectively take the public’s attention away from both of these subjects, which were equally uncomfortable for him. The pogrom fit perfectly. The date of July 4th, agreed upon by the then-ambassador to Poland, Bliss Lane, was specially chosen so that reports of this event would reach American audiences, and particularly, Jewish-American audiences, as soon as possible. July 4th is, of course, American Independence Day: a day off from work, during which people aren’t occupied by the daily rat race. In 1946, this day happened to fall on a Thursday, and so publishing reports about the pogrom would occupy the American audience’s attention for much longer than a few hours. And so, once again, the pogrom played right into Stalin’s hands.

http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/kielce-pogrom-the-truth-about-the-kielce-pogrom-comes-to-light.html

Basically, Stalin desperately needed to create an incident, after which Poles would loose their sympathy in the eyes of allies, so he could take over the country, and proceed to torture and murder the rest of Polish elites, soldiers and officers in mock trials. It is estimated, that around 100 000 people were murdered, most of the times their bodies were buried in communal ditches, locations of most of which are unrevieled to this day. There was a case, where communists built public toilets in place, that later was found out to be one of those graves. It took 50 years to learn the truth about Katyn Massacre. It might take more to learn the truth about other incidents. Though, it will be difficult, since most of the files (including those regarding Kielce Pogrom), were burned by communists around 1990.

And for the record, I would like to highlight once more, that what happened during Kielce Pogrom was a tragedy and indeed, there is no discussion, that some Poles took part in it. Yet then again, example of Koniuchy and Naliboki massacre shows, that war revelied worst instincts in some people, regardless of which nation they belonged to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koniuchy_massacre

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2015, 01:48:25 PM »
Yes, you are correct, such incidents as killing Jews by the Poles after war indeed occurred. As far as I'm concerned, there is one proper scientific study about this subject published, and it's a book called "After the Holocaust: Polish-Jewish Conflict in the Wake of World War II" by Dr Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, historian of University of Virginia. It's a number of researches the author conducted, based on which he estimates, that between 1944-1947, from 253-615 Jews were killed in Poland. The motives were various, the most common were: antisemitism, robbery, false perception of danger (stranger in the village could've been seen as NKVD officer, etc.). Therefore, in many cases, the reason for murder was not outright hatred for Jews. Although, there is absolutely no denying, that it's despicable that such incidents occured. According to Chodakiewicz, in the same period, between 258 to 580 Poles were killed by the Jews, also for various reasons. Book contains for example a description of a case, where Jewish woman (out of gratitude for ending the war) turned over an entire group of local Polish underground resistance to the Soviets. They all ended up in gulag, including a person, who gave this woman a shelter for three years during the war. However you don't see me claiming, that "after war, Jews murdered Poles, no Nazi/Soviets making them to do so". It simply shows, that every nation has it's criminals and degenerates, which shouldn't be so much of a surprise. Also, the war (let alone, the biggest conflict in human history) reveals the worst instincts in some. Disrespect for human life and property rights are some of them, as Chaim A. Kaplan, to which I reffered earlier, also said. The thesis, that Poles - as a nation in general - murdered Jews, is simply not true and in order come up with it, you need to completely ignore all the facts I've mentioned earlier, plus everything else that is known about this period.

And by the way, the property that belonged to Jews (and all victims for that matter), was confiscated by (firstly) Third Reich and later by the Communist State. Those who survived, could've reclaimed it after the war. The rest of the property was sold by the communist government to those, who wanted to buy it.


As for Kielce Pogrom, there is also completely no denying, that what happened, was outrageous. However, like in every criminal case, you have to look at the context of the incident. First of all, it doesn't make too much sense, that it was done by the civilians. Nothing like it happened before nor after. Second of all, it's well documented, that the communist militia was there at the time and actually started the riots by opening fire. There's a handful of proof, that it was conducted entirely by militia, communist secret police and some criminal Polish element. To understand, why would they do it, you have to look at Polands' political situation at the time.

In the internal politics of the Polish People’s Republic, it was also a matter of drawing public attention away from the falsified results of a national referendum, which had taken place only two days earlier: on June 30, 1946. Despite the communist propaganda calling on the population to vote “Thrice Yes,” Poles voted “No” all three times. The pogrom and the authorities’ reaction to it drew attention away from this manipulated referendum. They also drew the world’s attention away from the issue of the Katyń Forest Massacre, which was being reviewed by the Nuremberg War Tribunals at the time. In 1946, Roman Andrzejewicz Rudenko, the lead prosecutor of the USSR during the Nuremberg Trials (later, he became the Prosecutor General of the USSR) presented the indictment concerning the murder of around 11,000 Polish army officers in Katyń by the Third Reich. Because the trial was not proceeding exactly as the USSR would have liked it to, it was necessary to draw the public’s attention away by using a subject about which the world was very sensitive at the time. And so, on July 4, 1946, when the material evidence concerning the Katyń Forest Massacre was being presented to the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg, the trial began to proceed in a direction inimical to Soviet interests. Stalin was well aware that this would happen, and so he needed an event to take place which would effectively take the public’s attention away from both of these subjects, which were equally uncomfortable for him. The pogrom fit perfectly. The date of July 4th, agreed upon by the then-ambassador to Poland, Bliss Lane, was specially chosen so that reports of this event would reach American audiences, and particularly, Jewish-American audiences, as soon as possible. July 4th is, of course, American Independence Day: a day off from work, during which people aren’t occupied by the daily rat race. In 1946, this day happened to fall on a Thursday, and so publishing reports about the pogrom would occupy the American audience’s attention for much longer than a few hours. And so, once again, the pogrom played right into Stalin’s hands.

http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/kielce-pogrom-the-truth-about-the-kielce-pogrom-comes-to-light.html

Basically, Stalin desperately needed to create an incident, after which Poles would loose their sympathy in the eyes of allies, so he could take over the country, and proceed to torture and murder the rest of Polish elites, soldiers and officers in mock trials. It is estimated, that around 100 000 people were murdered, most of the times their bodies were buried in communal ditches, locations of most of which are unrevieled to this day. There was a case, where communists built public toilets in place, that later was found out to be one of those graves. It took 50 years to learn the truth about Katyn Massacre. It might take more to learn the truth about other incidents. Though, it will be difficult, since most of the files (including those regarding Kielce Pogrom), were burned by communists around 1990.

And for the record, I would like to highlight once more, that what happened during Kielce Pogrom was a tragedy and indeed, there is no discussion, that some Poles took part in it. Yet then again, example of Koniuchy and Naliboki massacre shows, that war revelied worst instincts in some people, regardless of which nation they belonged to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koniuchy_massacre

That's very interesting information. I am not going to be convinced that Poland, which anyone after world war 1 would tell you was more antisemitic than Germany, suddenly became a bastion of love for Jews after ww2, but the media could have equally focused on the Arabs killing Jews, and the Americans bringing in Nazis in. Why they would focus on Poland, especially the covert communist papers might be because they wanted Russia to take over Poland, it's a logical thesis that should be researched.

As for during the holocaust itself, Poland or France as a nation can't be "proven" to do anything, it's a nation, but France, Poland and half of Europe enthusiastically supported the Nazis and volunteered to help catch Jews. I have heard as many stories of French turning over Jews for the Nazi blood money, and my surviving family experienced the same they did there as in Poland.

After the war isn't my main issue anyways, I don't want the lands we owned there, and it's obscene that Jews went back. During, there's plenty of research to show that people were turning over Jews the first chance they got. There were righteous gentiles there that saved some Jews, but it was basically the same as France, the majority of the people were more than happy to rid themselves of Jews, it was the popular part of the Nazi platform.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Fennec

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2015, 08:43:49 PM »

In 1939 3,5 million Jews lived in Poland, which is 10% of the whole population. 380 000 in Warsaw itself (31%). 32% of Lwow population was Jewish, 43% of Bialystoks' and so on. In many smaller cities, over 50% (up to almost 100%) of population was Jewish. Poland was home to the second largest (after USA) Jewish community in the world. They had approx. 52% of shares in the trade market, 28% of their income was payed to the government in taxes. Among doctors, 33,5% of people were Jewish, among lawyers, 53%. From 103 theatres, 15 were Jewish. At the time, Polish Jews were publishing 160 newspapers and magazines, in circulation of 790 000/day. They had their own political groups and parties. In 1939, Polish government agreed to accept all the Jewish population kicked out from Germany. That was a few years after Polish Government refused the proposition of III Reich to team up and invade Soviet Union. Hardly the "more antisemitic, than Germany" picture. Sure, you've had tensions every now and again, but you always do, when you have large minorities. I suppose you know that by now.

Poland is of course the only occupied country, which didn't collaborate with Hitler in any way. France pretty much institutionalized delivering Jews to death camps, so comparing Poland to it seems to be out of place, to say the least. Obviously, as I've said earlier, there were some scum, who did rat out Jews and Poles. For example, in Warsaw, it is estimated, that up to 5% of population at some point tried to extort money or blackmail Jews and Poles who were helping them. In an order given by Directorate of Civil Resistance, we read "Every Pole, who takes part in their [Germans] murderous action, by either blackmail or denunciation of Jews, or who takes advantage of their difficult situation by stealing from them, commits heavy crime against law of Republic of Poland and will be immediately punished". Punishment for this crime was death. And there were entire divisions of Underground Army dedicated to execute those sentences.

And then again, Poles were not the only ones, who had a margin of their population behaving in a discusting way. Couple of thousands of Jews were part of Ghetto Police, formed mostly out of Jewish criminal element. According to Emanuel Ringelblum, the cruelty of these people was "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police

Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupier in eastern Poland and their large overrepresentation in major departaments of communist government, formed by Russians after the war, is another story, too long and complex to start it here. I'm just stressing the fact, that among all people, there were some traitors, scum and criminals. Yet I'm not claiming, that "most Jews were more than happy to rid themselves of Poles, it was a popular Soviet platform".

Truth be told, there is no evidence to sustain most of the accusations (made by pretty much just a few people, but unfortunately supported by some governments) against Poland and Poles, regarding what happened before and during the war. It's the same ol' propaganda fest; some try to whitewash their history at the expense of the victim, some try to make some money, by making a little show on the graves, like book authors, or heads and associates of private organisations, that handle compensations from various governments in order to sustain their high level of living, rather than pass the money to actual survivors. Even the guy from the clip I've shown originally needed to fabricate pictures, when he was trying to push "Poles are antisemites" stereotype. That's because you won't be able to find a dude in Poland, who will wear a t-shirt with swastika in public, since it would take about 30 seconds before he would receive serious asskicking.

Since a large part of world's Jewish Community can trace their roots to Poland, I just wish we could respect our common history. Stirring animosities won't take us anywhere.

I will leave you with a link to this interesting documentary and this will be my last post. I appreciate the conversation we've had and I wish you guys all the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CM8LYxQrsU

Oh, and by the way, I just realised, that pretty much the same kind of discussion already took place in this forum:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,13029.msg144051.html#msg144051

So... sorry for not using the search feature, I guess. Cheers.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2015, 09:40:23 PM »
In 1939 3,5 million Jews lived in Poland, which is 10% of the whole population. 380 000 in Warsaw itself (31%). 32% of Lwow population was Jewish, 43% of Bialystoks' and so on. In many smaller cities, over 50% (up to almost 100%) of population was Jewish. Poland was home to the second largest (after USA) Jewish community in the world. They had approx. 52% of shares in the trade market, 28% of their income was payed to the government in taxes. Among doctors, 33,5% of people were Jewish, among lawyers, 53%. From 103 theatres, 15 were Jewish. At the time, Polish Jews were publishing 160 newspapers and magazines, in circulation of 790 000/day. They had their own political groups and parties. In 1939, Polish government agreed to accept all the Jewish population kicked out from Germany. That was a few years after Polish Government refused the proposition of III Reich to team up and invade Soviet Union. Hardly the "more antisemitic, than Germany" picture. Sure, you've had tensions every now and again, but you always do, when you have large minorities. I suppose you know that by now.

Poland is of course the only occupied country, which didn't collaborate with Hitler in any way. France pretty much institutionalized delivering Jews to death camps, so comparing Poland to it seems to be out of place, to say the least. Obviously, as I've said earlier, there were some scum, who did rat out Jews and Poles. For example, in Warsaw, it is estimated, that up to 5% of population at some point tried to extort money or blackmail Jews and Poles who were helping them. In an order given by Directorate of Civil Resistance, we read "Every Pole, who takes part in their [Germans] murderous action, by either blackmail or denunciation of Jews, or who takes advantage of their difficult situation by stealing from them, commits heavy crime against law of Republic of Poland and will be immediately punished". Punishment for this crime was death. And there were entire divisions of Underground Army dedicated to execute those sentences.

And then again, Poles were not the only ones, who had a margin of their population behaving in a discusting way. Couple of thousands of Jews were part of Ghetto Police, formed mostly out of Jewish criminal element. According to Emanuel Ringelblum, the cruelty of these people was "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police

Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupier in eastern Poland and their large overrepresentation in major departaments of communist government, formed by Russians after the war, is another story, too long and complex to start it here. I'm just stressing the fact, that among all people, there were some traitors, scum and criminals. Yet I'm not claiming, that "most Jews were more than happy to rid themselves of Poles, it was a popular Soviet platform".

Truth be told, there is no evidence to sustain most of the accusations (made by pretty much just a few people, but unfortunately supported by some governments) against Poland and Poles, regarding what happened before and during the war. It's the same ol' propaganda fest; some try to whitewash their history at the expense of the victim, some try to make some money, by making a little show on the graves, like book authors, or heads and associates of private organisations, that handle compensations from various governments in order to sustain their high level of living, rather than pass the money to actual survivors. Even the guy from the clip I've shown originally needed to fabricate pictures, when he was trying to push "Poles are antisemites" stereotype. That's because you won't be able to find a dude in Poland, who will wear a t-shirt with swastika in public, since it would take about 30 seconds before he would receive serious asskicking.

Since a large part of world's Jewish Community can trace their roots to Poland, I just wish we could respect our common history. Stirring animosities won't take us anywhere.

I will leave you with a link to this interesting documentary and this will be my last post. I appreciate the conversation we've had and I wish you guys all the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CM8LYxQrsU

Oh, and by the way, I just realised, that pretty much the same kind of discussion already took place in this forum:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,13029.msg144051.html#msg144051

So... sorry for not using the search feature, I guess. Cheers.

Sure, like I said, I know lots of cool Polish people here, it's not like being born in a country makes you a bad person, and especially in a society that had freedoms like Poland, you're going to have people that diverge from the flow. The Jews that were antisemetic were usually assimilated, and the most common ideology that is present in almost every society in the world is Jew-hatred, and so to show what good Poles they were, assimilated Jewish antisemites did unspeakable things to their brothers throughout history. The world is supposed to hate Jews in every generation, that's a law in Torah. There are some moral people in every generation, and if you are one, good for you, follow the 7 laws of Noah and you'll go to heaven. Doing good things helps too.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: About Poland
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2015, 09:45:56 PM »
In 1939 3,5 million Jews lived in Poland, which is 10% of the whole population. 380 000 in Warsaw itself (31%). 32% of Lwow population was Jewish, 43% of Bialystoks' and so on. In many smaller cities, over 50% (up to almost 100%) of population was Jewish. Poland was home to the second largest (after USA) Jewish community in the world. They had approx. 52% of shares in the trade market, 28% of their income was payed to the government in taxes. Among doctors, 33,5% of people were Jewish, among lawyers, 53%. From 103 theatres, 15 were Jewish. At the time, Polish Jews were publishing 160 newspapers and magazines, in circulation of 790 000/day. They had their own political groups and parties. In 1939, Polish government agreed to accept all the Jewish population kicked out from Germany. That was a few years after Polish Government refused the proposition of III Reich to team up and invade Soviet Union. Hardly the "more antisemitic, than Germany" picture. Sure, you've had tensions every now and again, but you always do, when you have large minorities. I suppose you know that by now.

Poland is of course the only occupied country, which didn't collaborate with Hitler in any way. France pretty much institutionalized delivering Jews to death camps, so comparing Poland to it seems to be out of place, to say the least. Obviously, as I've said earlier, there were some scum, who did rat out Jews and Poles. For example, in Warsaw, it is estimated, that up to 5% of population at some point tried to extort money or blackmail Jews and Poles who were helping them. In an order given by Directorate of Civil Resistance, we read "Every Pole, who takes part in their [Germans] murderous action, by either blackmail or denunciation of Jews, or who takes advantage of their difficult situation by stealing from them, commits heavy crime against law of Republic of Poland and will be immediately punished". Punishment for this crime was death. And there were entire divisions of Underground Army dedicated to execute those sentences.

And then again, Poles were not the only ones, who had a margin of their population behaving in a discusting way. Couple of thousands of Jews were part of Ghetto Police, formed mostly out of Jewish criminal element. According to Emanuel Ringelblum, the cruelty of these people was "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police

Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupier in eastern Poland and their large overrepresentation in major departaments of communist government, formed by Russians after the war, is another story, too long and complex to start it here. I'm just stressing the fact, that among all people, there were some traitors, scum and criminals. Yet I'm not claiming, that "most Jews were more than happy to rid themselves of Poles, it was a popular Soviet platform".

Truth be told, there is no evidence to sustain most of the accusations (made by pretty much just a few people, but unfortunately supported by some governments) against Poland and Poles, regarding what happened before and during the war. It's the same ol' propaganda fest; some try to whitewash their history at the expense of the victim, some try to make some money, by making a little show on the graves, like book authors, or heads and associates of private organisations, that handle compensations from various governments in order to sustain their high level of living, rather than pass the money to actual survivors. Even the guy from the clip I've shown originally needed to fabricate pictures, when he was trying to push "Poles are antisemites" stereotype. That's because you won't be able to find a dude in Poland, who will wear a t-shirt with swastika in public, since it would take about 30 seconds before he would receive serious asskicking.

Since a large part of world's Jewish Community can trace their roots to Poland, I just wish we could respect our common history. Stirring animosities won't take us anywhere.

I will leave you with a link to this interesting documentary and this will be my last post. I appreciate the conversation we've had and I wish you guys all the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CM8LYxQrsU

Oh, and by the way, I just realised, that pretty much the same kind of discussion already took place in this forum:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,13029.msg144051.html#msg144051

So... sorry for not using the search feature, I guess. Cheers.

Serbia didn't cooperate. Mainstream Polish society is not pro-Jewish and is openly anti-Israel, though it's true they don't like Nazis as a society. http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Poll-reveals-anti-Semitism-still-rages-in-Poland-310458


Survey of Polish students commissioned by Jewish community shows 44 percent would "not be happy" to have a Jewish neighbor.
Students participate in March of the Living .

Students participate in March of the living 370. (photo credit:Yossi Zeilger )

A survey conducted in recent weeks among high school students in Warsaw, Poland, presented disturbing results on the extent of hatred towards Jews, with a shocking 44 percent saying they would not like to have a Jewish neighbor.

One thousand two hundred and fifty students, aged 17-18, were surveyed by a Homo Homini Institute of Public Opinion Research poll commissioned by the Jewish community in Poland. Of these, 40% said they would not like to have a Jewish classmate.

The survey found 60% of the respondents said they would not like to have a Jewish partner, while 45% said they “would not be happy” if they had a Jewish relative.

When asked about the Holocaust, the Polish students did not hide their anti-Semitic opinions and showed poor knowledge of Jewish history in Poland.

Most of the students believed that the percentage of Jews living in Warsaw before World War II was 18%, while the actual percentage of Warsaw’s Jews was 30%. The survey also showed that 44% believed that “Poles and Jews suffered equally during the Holocaust.”

Moreover, 27% said that the Jews suffered more and 24.7% claimed that the suffering of the Poles was greater.

However, most of students who took part in the survey, 55.8%, correctly named Mordechai Anielewicz as the leader of the Jewish uprising.

The poll added that 68.3% knew the exact date of the uprising, while 23% thought “the uprising ended with a victory of the rebels.”

Joanna Korzeniewska, a spokesperson for the Jewish community of Poland, said the results of the study will “help us in planning social and educational activities in the future. As it now turns out, we need them even more than we thought before.”
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge