Author Topic: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?  (Read 6795 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« on: August 24, 2016, 05:36:27 PM »
https://palmtreeofdeborah.blogspot.co.il/2016/08/did-rabbi-meir-kahane-really-get-ger.html?m=1

Contrary to popular misperception, such as the above, most of the references to the ger in the Torah are referring to the non-Jewish Ger Toshav - the Resident Dweller - not to the fully Jewish convert! A careful reading of Or Haraayon shows that R.Kahane fully chap'd this.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 04:38:16 AM by Yerusha »

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2016, 04:31:11 AM »




Last year the Chief Rabbinate of Israel officially gave the status of Ger Toshav to an uncircumcised part-Jewish non-Jew George Streichman to 'purchase' the Land of Israel for purposes of the Shmittah, so the status of Ger Toshav is not a Halachic fiction. The terms 'Ger Tzedek' and 'Ger Toshav' are not specified in the Torah, where each of the many references to ger has to be studied in context and with the commentators, where it can be seen that most are referring to the non-Jewish ger Toshav eg "the ger who is in your gates" (Shmos 20) and "giving carrion to the ger" (Devarim 14) etc
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 07:39:52 PM by Yerusha »

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2016, 09:51:44 AM »
You should be aware that what the Rabbinate did to grant the status of "Ger Toshav" might have met the standards of the lenient view of Raavad.
However, it did not meet the stricter standards of Rambam. See Chazon Ish on Shviit siman 24, for details.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2016, 10:58:33 AM »
A ger toshav is a superior ben noach who wishes to formally identify with the am yisrael without undergoing full conversion. He has to take on at least 1 extra mitzva apart from his required 7. He does not have to circumsize nor live in eretz yisrael to be in the category of ger toshav.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2016, 09:18:11 PM »
If you think or imply that Rav Kahane understood ger toshav  as a way to implement sale of land to non Jews, you are out of your mind.  Totally nuts.  Please stop lying.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2016, 08:06:44 PM »
David Katz at the Kotel on R.Kahane on the Ger Toshav in Eretz Yisrael


Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2016, 06:42:43 PM »
At 24:00 the subject of the Ger Toshav is mentioned by Kahanist R.Menachem Gottlieb.




This is actually a very complex subject, as explained by R.David Katz in this shiur



who shows that the Halacha is according to the Raavad, and that the status of the Ger Toshav - the quasi-nonJew who wishes to formally affiliate with the Jewish People, even if outside of the Land of Israel and even in the absence of the Jubilee Year - still applies today.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2016, 10:53:56 AM »
R.Menachem Gottlieb restating here the usual hoary error that "the Ger Toshav is not applicable today", which has long been refuted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtS6hZN6I8E



Unfortunately this continued promulgation of this incorrect opinion is delaying the Judaization of humanity & the Redemption!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 11:05:34 AM by Yerusha »

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2016, 01:52:29 PM »
Of course R. Menachem Gottlieb is right about Rambam's view.
Although I know of 2 and possibly 3 rare exceptions, where even Rambam would classify the Gentile as a Ger Toshav, before the Yovail.
I currently do not wish to provide details.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2016, 06:47:16 PM »
Kindly explain then the usage of the term "Ger Toshav" in Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 304,3, Mishna Brurah 24 & the continued Halachic existence of the status of Ger Toshav to this day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 07:59:43 PM by Yerusha »

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2017, 05:46:33 AM »
I said I don't want to give all the rare exceptions to the rule of Yovail, but I will point out the reference to one of them.
Rambam Hilchot Melachim 10:3
commentary by
1] Rabbi Dovid Povarsky, ketuvot 11:1 clause 632

2] See also Ohr Sameach to Rambam Hilchot Issurei Biah 12:10
3] Dovaiv Maisharim 3:15

I will admit Rabbi Betzalel Zolti , Torah Sh'beal Peh, Volume 21 and others do not agree that the above halacha applies even when there is no Yovail.
I disagree with Rabbi Betzalel Zolti.

In any case, since you, Yerusha brought up the video by R. Menachem Gottlieb, since in the video he mentions that based on the Rambam it is not a good idea to put the USA embassy in Jerusalem, I would like to state, what area would be a good place according to the Rambam.
It appears to me, in my humble opinion, although you can ask, Kahanists more knowledgeable than me, the best place would be in Eilat or nearby, based on what Rambam wrote in Hilchot Kiddush Hachodesh 18:16.
On the issue of Shmitta I know many are lenient in that area of the country, but I did not ask an authoritative person, point blank, so I am just saying what appears to me. I am not saying definitely that this is the halacha.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2017, 07:23:22 AM »
There are 2 main types of Ger Toshav:

the subjugated non-Jew living in Eretz Yisrael who is obligated in taxes and has no political rights (this is the type R.Kahane talks about in Or Haraayon).

The second type of Ger Toshav is the non-subjugated non-Jew not necessarily connected to Eretz Yisrael who takes on the 7 Laws as a personal kabbalah (discussed by the Ritva - this dichotomy being brought in Or Haraayon). "A Shabbos goy is a nochri; whereas a Ger Toshav is one who has taken on the 7 laws & cannot be made to break Shabbos" (Mishna Berura).

The Rambam oscillates between these 2 main categories of Ger Toshav in the Mishna Torah eg Issurei Biyah 14:8 is the conquered Ger Toshav, whereas Hilchos Melachim 8:10 is the Ger Toshav by choice.

The source of every apparent contradiction in the Rambam is explained in R.David Katz's youtube talks above, in "Od Yisrael Yosef Bni Chai" ch.3 by R.Aharon Soloveitchik, and by the Brisker Rav in "Chiddushei Griz on the Rambam".
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 07:35:54 AM by Yerusha »

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2017, 03:19:53 PM »
...and on the ger toshav we dont pasken like the rambam...rather the raavad.



Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2017, 07:53:36 PM »
There are 2 types of good non-Jews.
The ones who do the proper things that a non-Jew should do for the right reasons. This person is beloved by G-d and has a share in the world to come.
The second type of good non Jew is someone who has received official recognition that he is a good non-Jew that allows us the Jewish people to be more trusting and more lenient in certain areas of halacha towards him. Ger Toshav is the good non-Jew that has received official recognition.

In my opinion you are mixing up the issue of Ger Toshav with other issues, with your talk about subjugated or non subjugated people, Yerusha.

2nd point Yerusha. Mishna Brura who is accepted by most Jews as final say in Halacha, 1] does not hold by the Ritva. 2] Informs us that custom is in accordance with Rambam and not Raavad.
Chazon Ish also leans in the direction of Rambam. I should be fair to say that another important Halachic authority, Aruch Hashulchan leans in the direction of Raavad, so I wouldn't condemn Israel's Chief Rabbinate for using Raavad standards for Ger Toshav, for the purposes of Shmitta. But I still hold by the Mishna Brura.

If you really want to press the issue, we can also add a new category of Non-Jew which is relevant for us in the exile.
Non-Jews who are our good neighbors even if they have the wrong ideology and those who are not.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2017, 07:23:50 AM »
There are 2 types of good non-Jews. WHAT KIND OF LOSHON IS 'TYPE OF GOOD NON JEW'; WHO USES THAT LOSHON?


The ones who do the proper things that a non-Jew should do for the right reasons. This person is beloved by G-d and has a share in the world to come.
DO YOU MEAN RAMBAM HILCHOS MELACHIM 8:10?

The second type of good non Jew is someone who has received official recognition that he is a good non-Jew that allows us the Jewish people to be more trusting and more lenient in certain areas of halacha towards him. Ger Toshav is the good non-Jew that has received official recognition.
DO YOU MEAN RAMBAM HILCHOS MELACHIM 8:11?
IF SO, THIS IS CALLED 'KABBALAH' - ONE'S PERSONAL ACCEPTANCE, TO WHICH HE IS CALLED A GER TOSHAV, AND YOU SEEM TO AGREE WITH THAT LABEL, WHICH IS ODD SINCE YOU WERE TRYING TO ARGUE SAYING THERE IS NO LOSHON GER TOSHAV




In my opinion you are mixing up the issue of Ger Toshav with other issues,
THERE IS MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF GER TOSHAV. WHAT YOU CALL A GOOD NON JEW WITH KABBALAH AND A SLAVE/CONQUERED GER TOSHAV CONNECTED TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL, I.E. A MEIR KAHANE GER TOSHAV



with your talk about subjugated or non subjugated people, Yerusha.

THE GER TOSHAV OF ERETZ YISRAEL MUST BE SUBJUGATED AND PAY TAX AS PER RAV KAHANE. THE NON ERETZ YISRAEL DOES NOT PAY TAX NOR IS HE SUBJUGATED. HIS STATUS IS A GOOD NON JEW AND THE RELATIONSHIP COMES INTO PLAY VIS A VIS SHABBOS GOY AS PER SHULCHAN ARUCH 304





2nd point Yerusha. Mishna Brura who is accepted by most Jews as final say in Halacha,

MISHNA BRURA 304:3:24 SPEAKS ABOUT LAWS OF SHABBOS GOY. NOTICE THE GREATER INYAN VIS A VIS THE SUGIA IN THE SHULCHAN ARUCH, I.E. HILCHOS AVADIM AND ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRISOS 9A, WHICH IS THE MAKOR OF GER TOSHAV B ZMAN HAZEH




 1] does not hold by the Ritva.
THE RITVA EXPLAINS THE WHOLE SUGIA OF WHICH THE MISHNA BRURA AND THE GEMARA ARE SPEAKING ABOUT....VIS A VIS GER TOSHAV.



2] Informs us that custom is in accordance with Rambam and not Raavad.

THE SHULCHAN ARUCH PASKENS LIKE THE RAAVAD AND THE MISHNA BRURA EXPLAINS THAT VIEW. HE MUST MENTION RAMBAM SINCE ITS HILCHOS AVADIM, AND THE GER TOSHAV YOVEL IS A GER TOSHAV EVED TO THE RAMBAM. BY MENTIONING RAAVAD HE STATES HALACHA, AND FOR GER TOSHAV BZMAN HAZEH NOT LIKE THE RAMBAM..I.E. SHABBOS GOY WHICH IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH RAAVAD AND OTHERS.




Chazon Ish also leans in the direction of Rambam.
ALL AGREE WITH RAMBAM CONCERNING THE EVED GER TOSHAV YOVEL OF THE RAMBAM. THE CHIDDUSH IS THAT THERE ARE OTHER TYPES OF GER TOSHAV BZMAN HAZEH


 I should be fair to say that another important Halachic authority, Aruch Hashulchan leans in the direction of Raavad, so I wouldn't condemn Israel's Chief Rabbinate for using Raavad standards for Ger Toshav,
THE CHIEF RABBI DIDNT RELY ON ARUCH HASHULCHAN. HE RELIED ON RAAVAD, AS THAT IS THE APPROPRIATE HALACHA IN THAT CASE AND FOR A NOAHIDE BZMAN HAZEH FOR SHMITTAH.



for the purposes of Shmitta.

THERE IS NO SPECIAL CASE SCENARIO IN THE GER TOSHAV SUGIA. ONLY THE APPOPRIATE SOURCE FOR THE APPROPRIATE TORAH ACTION... I.E. SHABBOS GOY, GER TOSHAV AND A JEWS WINE, SHMITTAH,EVED, ETC.


But I still hold by the Mishna Brura.

EVERYONE HOLDS BY THE MISHNA BRURA, AND IT SPEAKS ABOUT SHABBOS GOY IN THE AVADIM SUGIA. THE SHABBOS GOY EVED IS THE SHITTA OF RAMBAM AND THE RAAVAD IS USED TO SPEAK ABOUT GER TOSHAV SHABBOS GOY BZMAN HAZEH. TWO DIFF GER TOSHAV IN ONE PLACE. SEE KRISOS 9A FOR THE MAKOR AND AVODAH ZARA 64B AS WELL FOR THE DOUBLE ENTENDRE OF GER TOSHAV BEING BOTH EVED AND NON EVED IN ONE SOURCE. THE RITVA EXPLAINS THE GER TOSHAV NON EVED AND THE EVED GER TOSHAV IS DIFFERENT BUT SOURCED ALONG SIDE IT. IT IS CONFUSING, YET VERY CLEAR WHEN CONSIDERED EVED AND NON EVED. THEY ARE EXTREMELY CLOSELY RELATED AND ALWAYS BROUGHT TOGETHER WHILE THE UNIQUE APPLICATIONS ARE DIFFERENT BETWEEN AN EVED AND A NON EVED. SEE RAV KAHANE IN OHR HARAYON EXPLAINING THE SHITA OF RITVA AND THE VIEW OF SUBJUGATION IN LAND OF ISRAEL





If you really want to press the issue, we can also add a new category of Non-Jew which is relevant for us in the exile.
HUH? SOURCE?













Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2017, 02:17:50 PM »
The Pious of the nations have a share in the world to come - Rambam Hilchot Teshuva 3:5
See kesef Mishna, Rambam's source is the Mishna that tells us, had Bilaam not gone bad, he would have had a share in the world to come. It is only because good non Jews (even if they are not Ger Toshav) have a share in the world to come do we have to be informed by the Mishna that Bilaam was not one of them.

A Ger Toshav however, is someone who has proven to the Jewish people he is a righteous Gentile before a Beit Din.
You yourself Yerusha, quoted halachas in the Rambam, where he has to go before a Beit Din to get the status.

Rambam is teaching halacha lmaaseh. You can not say he is using different definitions of Ger Toshav, Yerusha, as you try to contend in different places. That is unless he says it black and white.

Ger Toshav is not a slave. He could live anywhere he wants in the world. If however, he chooses to live in the land of Israel, we ideally make demands of him to be subservient to the government and also not to try to take over the country, just like in the USA we allow people with a legal "Green Card" to live in the country, but they have to follow the rules of the country and pay taxes if the government asks for taxes. And as long as they retain their status, legally they don't have the right to vote who runs the country.

You are going into "left field" with your incorrect interpretations of what Rav Kahane said and your whole bit about subjugated people.

Based on Mishna Brura's, Beur Halacha 330:2 "Kutit", the Rosh Yeshiva of Rav Kahane's Raayon Hayehudi, Rav Kroyzer admitted to me, that Mishna Brura does not accept the Ritva and all your pilpul is not going to undo this.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2017, 10:55:51 PM »
Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, head of Machon Hamikdash and the Number 2 man on Rabbi Kahane's party list, wrote a long article in
צפיה כרך ג
entitled
ישראל גוי אחד בארץ
in the book I own, it starts on page 135
They still sell the book at Machon Hamikdash.
There he talks about the issue of Ger Toshav in length regarding his rights and duties in the land of Israel.
If you read his article, you will see that he does not accept the theory that contends there are 2 different Ger Toshav's going under the same name.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2017, 02:07:56 AM »
Yerusha asked what is my source for
Quote
If you really want to press the issue, we can also add a new category of Non-Jew which is relevant for us in the exile.
Source: Hilchot Avoda Zara 10:5, 10:6

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2017, 04:46:56 AM »
Quote from: edu

The Pious of the nations have a share in the world to come - Rambam Hilchot Teshuva 3:5
See kesef Mishna, Rambam's source is the Mishna that tells us, had Bilaam not gone bad, he would have had a share in the world to come. It is only because good non Jews (even if they are not Ger Toshav) have a share in the world to come do we have to be informed by the Mishna that Bilaam was not one of them.

A Ger Toshav however, is someone who has proven to the Jewish people he is a righteous Gentile before a Beit Din.
You yourself Yerusha, quoted halachas in the Rambam, where he has to go before a Beit Din to get the status.


You do not understand a ger toshav with beis din status: one type of beis din is for kabbalah, another type is for yovel. See the Griz on the Rambam.


Rambam is teaching halacha lmaaseh.

Ger Toshav is also halacha l'maaseh. Even the Eved Knaani is chal today. A Ger  Toshav with kabbalah is halacha l'maaseh see Rambam Hilchos Melachim 8:10-11


You can not say he is using different definitions of Ger Toshav, Yerusha, as you try to contend in different places. That is unless he says it black and white.

This is your false premise. You think the Rambam is pashut .The Rambam is far from being pashut and is using the loshon straight from chazal. Notice the loshon Ger Toshav in Mishna Brura 304:3:24 which is a double entendre based on Krisos 9a referring to two types of Ger Toshav: one who is keeping 7 Laws stam and one who is either an eved or a sachir.


Ger Toshav is not a slave.

Yes he is, Shulchan Aruch OC 304: a slave who takes on the 7 mitzvos Bnei Noach is considered a Ger Toshav. We pasken that in a place where we are not noheg to buy a slave and give him mila, we can retain them and pay them making them a sachir. See shitas Rashi Yevamos 48b and the Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 267:2.


He could live anywhere he wants in the world. If however, he chooses to live in the land of Israel, we ideally make demands of him to be subservient to the government and also not to try to take over the country, just like in the USA we allow people with a legal "Green Card" to live in the country, but they have to follow the rules of the country and pay taxes if the government asks for taxes. And as long as they retain their status, legally they don't have the right to vote who runs the country.

This is the subjugated Ger Toshav eved referred to in R.Kahane's Or Haraayon. The 7 Canaanite nations are a conquered subjugated people. Today's Muslims fall under this category. This type of Ger Toshav is categorically different than one who keeps the 7 Laws of Noach and mandates a Mitzvah Lechiyuso, hence at least two types of Ger Toshav.

You are going into "left field" with your incorrect interpretations of what Rav Kahane said and your whole bit about subjugated people.

I question if you have even read Or Haraayon in the original Hebrew. Rav Kahane clearly states these distinctions based on the shita of the Ritva that everyone holds by. The only question in the Ritva is if it is better today to refer to them as Bnei Noach or Ger Toshav; see Rogatchover Gaon and refer to Rambam Hilchos Melachim 10:9-10 for a change in loshon between 'goy' and 'ben noach'.

Based on Mishna Brura's, Beur Halacha 330:2 "Kutit",

This is not the same Mishna Berura 304:3:24 about the shabbos goy, which you have not addressed. And the Biur Halacha in 330:2 even states that the law is different for a ger toshav who is different than a kuti. It says there that a kuti and a Yishmaelite carry the same weight. The Ger Toshav has different din, and being in hilchos shabbos, is 100% l'maaseh bzman hazeh. This ger todhav is one who keeps the 7 laws, and from the shitas harambam he would need kabbalah. this is not the same ger toshav bzman yovel that demands a different type of beis din.


 the Rosh Yeshiva of Rav Kahane's Raayon Hayehudi, Rav Kroyzer admitted to me, that Mishna Brura does not accept the Ritva and all your pilpul is not going to undo this.


You have not watched any of R.David Katz's videos. You have not answered any of our enquiries. You are confusing the mishna beruras and you cannot discount the Ritva from the shita of Ger Toshav. Kutit has nothing to do with the inyan while the Ritva is a key ingredient that is vital to the ger toshav sugia. Since the Ritva is a rishon, all achronim factor in the shita of the Ritva, and all of the rishonim are on the same page concerning ger toshav. They do however vary in usage of loshon, however the result is always the same in that there is a ger toshav bzman hazeh who keeps 7 laws and has kabbalah.

You have admitted that there's a Ger Toshav, and then say that there isn't. And the sugia of shabbos goy i.e. hilchos shabbos mandates a ger toshav bzman hazeh. this is one din of many that are shayach today not only to Raaavad but to Rambam as well. The Shulchan Aruch, Mishna Brurah and even the rabbonim of today like Rabbi Kanievsky pasken accordingly. I suggest you do your homework and tighten up your learning and learn ger toshav lefi Shitas Brisk before commenting further. At least address the issues stated at hand before hijacking the thread to non-related issues.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 05:27:37 AM by Yerusha »

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2017, 06:46:32 PM »
1 I have read Ohr Haraayon in the original Hebrew.
2 You are misunderstanding the halacha being discussed about in shulchan aruch 304.

Today in the USA and most countries in the world slavery is illegal, so this also prevents Jews from owning slaves.
However, in a country where slavery is legal, such as, in the southern part of the USA before the civil war, if a Jew desired to buy a slave, he could not buy a slave who wished to live an evil lifestyle.

The slave would have to convert to a new status, where in most areas of halacha he would have to perform the commandments like a free Jewish woman (including the commandments of Sabbath observance, etc.)
The shulchan aruch and mishna brura is telling us that according to the Rambam if we were living at the time when the yovail year was in effect, we would not have to demand such a heavy observance of commandments from that slave. There is a possibility under certain conditions, to settle for a slave who agrees to observe the 7 Noachide commandments to become a slave. But when there is no yovail year we would not lessen our standards to allow for such a slave to be in our possession.
The normal Ger Toshav however, is not a Jewish slave. It is clear from the context.
In any case, Rabbi Kahane is not saying what you are saying. Read Rav Yisrael Ariel's article (#2 man in Rabbi Kahane's party) before commenting further.
I currently am not interested in examining the lecture you mentioned because I know it is wrong and whoever I have been able to convince, has already been convinced.
So let us agree to disagree and end the conversation here.

As a side point, I should also add I have not sufficiently studied under what conditions did the Gentile who sold to the Jew his slave had the right to sell a slave at the outset, so don't start asking me questions about slavery. I can't answer them.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2017, 06:32:19 AM »
What do you call a good non jew [or a hired worker who keeps the 7 laws] outside the land bzman hazeh who keeps the 7 laws of Noach with a kabbalah and particularly on shabbos?

The answer: a Ger Toshav. He is not an eved, nor does he require yovel, nor does he have any proper shayachess to the land.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2017, 06:33:16 PM »
If you read his article, you will see that he does not accept the theory that contends there are 2 different Ger Toshav's going under the same name.

I have R.Ariel's article, and he talks solely about the category of Ger Toshav who is shayach to Eretz Yisrael.

Nowhere does R.Ariel state that there is not a second category of Ger Toshav who is not shayach to Eretz Yisrael.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2017, 06:44:08 AM »
Siman 304:1 of Shona Halachos, Hilchos Shabbos by the contemporary posek R.Chaim Kanievsky showing that the Ger Toshav status is extant today




Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Did R.Kahane "get Ger"?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2017, 04:07:09 AM »
                       

                     Lubavitcher Rebbe on the Ger Toshav
 
                                                                                           by R.David Katz


The Lubavitcher Rebbe says that we have an obligation of the highest order to help the Bnei Noach fulfill their Mitzvot through Talmud Torah. [Likkutei Sichos vol. 27 pp. 246-7; see footnotes] The Rebbe quotes the Rambam [Hilchos Melachim Ch. 11] concerning the role of Klal Yisrael that will take place in the Days of the Messiah. It is known that the Rebbe said repeatedly that Am Yisrael has entered into these exciting times, and now more than ever, the fruit of the Rebbe's [Noahide] work is clearly visible and has become a part of today's Judaism at large [in many capacities]. The non-Jews have fulfilled their destiny and are returning to our Holy Torah with the exact prescription of our Oral Torah has spoken about for thousands of years. They have accepted their place in the Oral Torah and are acting according to strict halacha.

The Torah contains a crystal clear tradition that outlines the Kosher path for a Torah non-Jew to abide by. The Rebbe highlights this path by showing its relationship to the coming of the Messiah and the Messianic age, and the nature of our obligatory cooperation with the invigorated righteous gentile who has properly rejected his religion, turned away from idols, and has accepted the Oral Torah [through his relationship with the 7 Laws] of Sinai. This is called a rejection of Shittuf, and according to the Rambam [as quoted by the Rebbe] this is the only accepted way a gentile can be regarded as a true Ben Noach. The Rebbe [Likkutei Sichos vol. 31 Parashas Mishpatim] calls this '7 Laws Ger Toshav' as they have chosen to make a shayachess to Dinei Yisrael and Dinei Torah [Dat HaEmes]. All halachic authorities [Shulchan Aruch 304; Krisos 9a] recognize this distinction and hold to further use such a Ben Noach as a 'Shabbos Goy' carries with it a prohibition weighted as a Dorisa. This Ben Noach [even of today] through his shayachess to Dinei Torah is synonymously attached to Din Ger Toshav in some matters. Though he be a Ben Noach, he also has carries a responsibility to himself and to Klal Yisrael as a partial Ger Toshav [in some matters]. A full Ger Toshav only exists in a time of Jubilee. [See Ode Yisrael Yosef Beni Chai by Rav Ahron Soloveichik where the numerous distinctions and concepts are laid out with clarity and dilligence. The Rebbe's sicha vol. 31 also lays out the exact same subject matter, with a particular interest of clarifying the Ger Toshav of today concerning Hilchos Shabbos based on Krisos 9a. The Ger Toshav is commanded to not be a Shabbos Goy while being commanded to not totally refrain from performing Melacha].

The Rebbe states that the Nations returning to our Holy Faith are accepting their role as prescribed by the Torah of Moses; this is a 'Chiddush Gadol' and he bases this off of a quote from the Rambam who refers to the Prophet Isaiah who intimates that in the Days of the Messiah and leading up to it the 'Entire World' will be filled with Knowing God. The Rebbe explains that the Rambam's words 'Entire World' should be taken quite literally as the 'Entire World' - Jew and Gentile - Ben Noach. As source material to further elucidate the words of the Rambam, the Rebbe draws from classic Torah sources in his Likkutei Sichos in order to explain and outline the obligations of the Bnei Noach in the Torah and for Jews concerning their role in fascilitating the return of Bnei Noach to Torah according to halacha and mainstream Judaism [Dinei Ger Toshav]. The Rebbe clearly states that this is a part of the process of the complete redemption and in revealing the Torah of our Righteous Messiah.

The Rebbe explains the Rambams Torah that in this process the gentiles will return to our Faith, The True Faith and to the Torah on their own. This is called 'Gerim Grurim' [Avodah Zara 24a] to which Rashi explains why these returness are called 'Ger' or 'Gerim' which is consistent with Chazal and the entire Mesora; they Megair themselves and at a time when Jews are not 'Mekablin' Gerim [not a full conversion; in halacha it is called Ktzat Geirus - Ger Toshav; see Rashba where he states all language 'Ger' and 'Giur' can be either Ger Gamur or Ktzat Geirus and only Torah context reveals the true meaning].

The only way that this can be achieved and be perceived as Kosher is that if the Nations in the their return do so in accordance of the 7 Laws Bnei Noach / 7 Laws Ger Toshav [Rambam Hilchos Melachim ch. 8:10-11]. Once they enter into the True Faith according to halacha, the halachic system of the Mesora employs a strict system that associates properly to the Torah observant gentile. Some of the Torah governed relationships are: wine, interest, kashrut, Shabbat, Holidays, middos, Tanach History, precedent, halacha, terminology, hashkafa, kabbalah, chassidus, darkei shalom, derech eretz, charity, Temple protocol, matters of impurity, understanding of text and commentary, mitzvot, nature of transgression [stumbling block before the blind], Tanach content [Tehillim], etc. All of the above require knowledge of Gentiles in Torah and/or working with Gentiles in a Torah capacity.

The Rebbe finalizes his vision by quoting from the Meiri [Sanhedrin 59a] who shows that the Torah inspired Ben Noach who learns Torah is compared to the Kohen Gadol, to which the Rebbe states that this means he wears a type of Priestly Crown - in that he is to make an occupation of Mitzvas Talmud Torah in the 7 Laws [Ger Toshav]. The Rebbe points out that this is only made possible through the Jew who teaches the Bnei Noach Torah, and of whom the Rambam calls 'A Sage of Israel' when in this capacity. The two of them fulfill the Knowing of God and help usher in the Messianic Era. The Jew will then appropriately wear the higher crown, the Crown of Torah. These roles can not be reversed and are designed to work in this way, the way that the Rambam, calrified by the Rebbe explains. The Jew who properly wears the Crown of Torah will draw from the Sages of Israel and helps usher in the complete redemption and the Torah of the Messiah while being a kosher Holy Torah Light to Nations, as it says, the Nations will recognize the Jewish Nations greatness only through their Torah Wisdom [Gra in Midrash Shlomo].

The Torah carries a tradition from the Sages that the Gentile is destined to leave idolatry, even Shittuf, and will embrace the Sinai Code with enough fervor that they will embrace the True Faith and keep the 7 Laws according to Sinai along with a commitment to their study through the Torah of Moses in the prescribed way [Meiri Sanhedrin 59a]. This is the meaning of "A Nochri who learns Torah is like a Kohen Gadol." There is a girsa in Midrash Tanchuma that is the basis of this concept in halacha, and in place of 'Nochri' employs the appropriate term 'Ger' ... 'who learns Torah is like the Kohen Gadol'.

To this there are only two questions that anyone ever asks: 'A goy who learns Torah is chayav misa' [Rambam Hilchos Melachim 10:9; not to be confused with the Ben Noach who can do Mitzvot even according to their Halacha - ibid. 10:10] and therefore 'Does a Jew have any responsibilities toward Gentiles/Gentile neighbors' [See Ode Yisrael Yosef Beni Chai that details this latter point exclusively]. The Rebbe answers these questions by identifiying the 'Gerim Grurim' as the subject matter of the Rambam [Hilchos Melachim Ch. 11] and describes the process as properly teaching/learning about 7 Laws [Ger Toshav] and removes all doubt by illustrating how this is the process of the complete redemption, to which he calls it a 'Chiddush Gadol'.

In conclusion, The Rebbe has given us the clear path through the Mesora, namely the Talmud and Rishonim like the Ran, Meiri, and Rambam that Jews should walk on and highlighting the path that the Gentiles will walk on. By adhering to his words, we strengthen our Holy Torah and take part in the Messianic Era and hasten it in the days that lead up to the complete redemption.

The only lingering question that both Jew and Gentile both struggle with, is the burning question of where is there a precedent in Torah of the truly Righteous Gentile. This basic concept is usually shrouded by poor English translations that have grown accustomed to translating 'Ger' as convert, when in truth convert is only one type of 'Ger'. The Torah is filled with many non convert 'Gerim' and this is the 'Ger/Gerim' spoken about at great length throughout the entire Mesora. We have examples like Antoninus, Jethro, Rachav, Rechabites and Kenites, and Naaman to name a few. This type of Torah character is promised to happen again, it is what the Rambam is describing as the Messianic process, and we are seeing it begin in our times. The Rebbe saw it and brought it out, and we are witnessing an even stronger exodus of Gentiles leaving their fallen faith and returning to the True Faith [Likkutei Sichos vol. 23 pp. 41,179,195] and in accordance with halacha and Torat Moshe.

Even if it is one from a city and two from a family, we are witnessing and participating in a process that the Rebbe calls a 'Chiddush Gadol' and the Torah has contained this wisdom from Sinai anticipating the fateful time when the gentiles would return as Gerim Grurim, Benei Noach who wish to keep the 7 Laws Ger Toshav in order to become 'Nilveh Ger' to Israel [Is. 14:1 & 56:3].

We are in exciting times, and this is not disputed. It is a 'Chiddush Gadol' - a time to be a Light to Nations, and with that comes the Crown of Torah and the Wisdom to Know God. As the Rambam points out and the Rebbe clarifies, it is our job of the Jewish people to bring Knowledge of God to the entire world, and this will elevate Bnei Noach into the best Gerei Toshavim that they can be. They will be allowed to perform their 7 Mitzvot in a way that they can occupy themselves with the Torah study embedded into the 7 Laws of Ger Toshav. What has been kept as a Chiddush Gadol will become a Light to the Nations, and what the Rebbe has been teaching has come to fruition.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 05:17:34 AM by Yerusha »