Author Topic: Isn't this the JDL sign?  (Read 1914 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Isn't this the JDL sign?
« on: September 26, 2007, 09:14:43 AM »
someone who is not for JTF says this is secular nationalist zionist emblem .I say it's JDL


Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Ultra Requete

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2383
  • United We Stand, Dived We'll Fall.
Re: Isn't this the JDL sign?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 01:54:45 PM »
It's Kach movement flag:

Introduction

This movement was banned from taking part in the elections after the Supreme Court decision that it is a racist movement whose aims are in contradiction with the democratic nature of Israel.
Dov Gutterman, 5 June 2001

The late Rabbi Meir Kahane was the founder and leader of the American Jewish Defense League (JDL), a militant Jewish organization in the United States which was very active in struggles against anti-Jewish activities there. After emigrating to Israel, Kahane run for elections to the Knesset in his Kahane to the Knesset whose initials formed the word KAKH. Kahana got one seat in the Knesset and was quite bold in his ultra-right views.
Four years later the Supreme Court banned his movement from running again, basically because the movement was against the democratic character of the state. Kahane kept his activities outside the Knesset. Kahane was eventually killed in the USA, and his movement split into two fractions. One kept the old name, the other one called Kahane Chai (meaning Kahane is alive) led by his son. Both were declared illegal few years ago, and the use of their symbols is banned (even if you can still see them).
Dov Gutterman, 13 November 2001

Kahane is pronounced Kahana or sometimes Kahanee. Kakh (Kach in English spelling) is a Hebrew word meaning 'thus', taken from the slogan of the Irgun (a 1940s militant group), Rak Kakh or 'Only Thus'. Kahane's son was killed last year and the two movements work more or less together nowadays. Of course, officially neither exists, they are both illegal.
Nathan Lamm, 13 November 2001


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description
The original flag was the Jewish Defense League (JDL) emblem, a fist on a Magen David, in black on a yellow background with inscription below. Both fractions kept using this flag, probably with different inscriptions. Unfortunately I cannot recall what the inscriptions were. Photos can be seen here and here at the movement website. The above image is lacking the inscription.
Dov Gutterman, 13 November 2001

Another illustration of appropriation of (radical) left-wing movemements' symbolism by (extreme) right-wing movements. This was originally the fist of the Black Power movement in the USA, also used by the Azanian People's Organization.
Jarig Bakker, 13 November 2001

The JDL emblem was blue on white, as the Israeli flag. I do not think they had a flag. The words (all in capitals) JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE were lined up, one below the other, at the opening at the bottom right of the symbol, and, below them, "Never Again" (in quotes, one line). This was the motto of the organization, referring to the Holocaust. I have seen the claim that the fist and star emblem was used by Jewish partisans in World War Two, but have never seen evidence of this. The Israeli movements, being in Israel, presumably did not need to evoke Israel. Instead, black on yellow —the color of Nazi badges for Jews— was used, to turn the colors into those of Jewish pride.
There are two slight variants of the symbol, one primarily used by the JDL, one by the Israeli groups, although there is an overlap. The image above is inexact.
The Kach flag had the words, in Hebrew sans serif font, Tenuat Kach ('The Kach Movement') in the opening, on two lines. Kahane Chai flipped the colors &151yellow on black&151 but its flag was still black on yellow. They added a flame above the star &151perhaps as some sort of memorial&151 and placed the words, in Hebrew italic font, Kahane Chai below. In addition, they placed the word, in Hebrew italic font, Koach ('strength' and a Hebrew acronym of Kahane Chai) at the opening. In all cases, the slogan lines up against where the line on the star would be.
There have been quite a few other symbols (and colors and names) used over the years, especially for subgroups and organizations, fronts, break-offs, and so on — see the State of Judea flag for some examples (six triangle star, lion, tablets, menorah etc.). This has increased since the banning, as the need to make fronts has increased. One used in Brooklyn has a symbol showing a menorah and star, sometimes with a different type of fist. One flag I have seen is the yellow on black Kahane Chai version (with flame) but with only 'WWW.KAHANE.ORG' written below (as in this image). Apart from that, the Kach and Kahane Chai flags described above, and the State of Judea flag, I have never seen any other flags.
The flag in the first picture reported by Dov Gutterman shows the words in thin letters and in one line, with the word "Kach" in quotes. The flag I own shows the words lined up at the invisible line at the opening, in thick letters, one above the other, with no quotation marks. The first picture shows Binyamin Kahane, late son of Meir and leader of Kahane Chai. The second picture shows Mike Guzofsky, leader of Kahane Chai in America. Its fist is more like the image above (in general the emblem, including the flame, is simpler) but the first photo's fist is more linear — thin and straight.
Finally, as to the radical left inspiration, Meir Kahane himself freely admitted this — that the atmosphere of the sixties made it easier for him to start a movement of his own. He even had kind words to say about the Black Panthers' (and similar groups') ultimate goals, if not their methods and ideas. The "Black Panthers" was also an unrelated leftist Israeli group of the seventies, representing poorer Sephardic Jews, taking inspiration, and its name, from the American Panthers.
Nathan Lamm, 13 November 2001

The Israeli Black Panthers was a social movement led by Se'adia Marziano and Charlie Biton, which fought against discrimination of oriental Jews (i.e. Sephardic Jews) in the late 1960s and early 1970s. One of its leaders became a Knesset Member after joining the New Communist Party. I cannot recall any flags used.
The current party of Sephardic Jews is Shas.
Dov Gutterman, 14 November 2001

Jewish Nationalist Kahane Movement flag can be found at <www.kahane.org>.
Gary Selikow, 16 December 2003

The flags of the movement vary widely, and I doubt there is any official one. The "fist on star" originated with the Jewish Defense League. They used it in blue on white (to evoke the Israeli flag), but I'm not sure if they used flags. After a slight change in design, it was used by the Israeli movements, Kach and Kahane Chai (the second a splinter from the first). Kach used black on yellow (to evoke the Nazi Jewish badge); their flag added the words "Kach Movement" in Hebrew in the open part of the star (not evident on the version posted- the fist should be an outline, not black). Kahane Chai used yellow on black with all sorts of variations, and also used black on yellow in variations and so on. Since the movements were banned, they've used all sorts of variants, symbols, and names.
Nathan Lamm, 16 December 2003

Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: Isn't this the JDL sign?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 01:59:04 PM »
Yes i thought so some leftist Jewish person daid it was the secular zionist flag ,i thought it was the kach flag :)
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline kahaneloyalist

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1959
Re: Isn't this the JDL sign?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 02:04:25 PM »
The fist in star was originally used by Avraham Hershkovitz's partisan group during the holocaust, Hershkovitz was a founding member of the JDL and they simply used his old symbol. Though the flag is of a symbolic nature expressing our goal of restoring things to as they were under Beit David and using physical means to accomplish this.
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline Dominater96

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 477
Re: Isn't this the JDL sign?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2007, 12:54:18 AM »
Do you have any more information on Avraham Hershkovitzs group?

Offline Dominater96

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 477
Re: Isn't this the JDL sign?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2007, 10:56:03 AM »
Do you have any more information on Avraham Hershkovitzs group?


Isn't he Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane's and David HaIvri's father-in-law.


Their father in law is Avraham Herzlich.