Author Topic: American first, Jew second  (Read 13130 times)

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Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 09:09:09 PM »
I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.



Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?

I would really like to know why.

A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked

1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?

2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.

1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2007, 09:09:54 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

If you feel so strongly about it, then go there!

Odds are you will not, though.
I will as soon as I can, but right now my parents won't let me
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2007, 09:11:59 PM »
I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.



Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?

I would really like to know why.

A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked

1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?

2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.



There are liberal groups that claim to represent Jews and they advocate awful policies.  I think they should stop claiming that the policies they advocate, represent Jews, because they don't.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2007, 09:13:26 PM »

The current Israeli government is not a Jewish Government. There are 10 or so Arabs in the Knesset there is very little that qualifies the Israeli government as a Jewish government. Judaism is a nationality, we are a people- a nation. G-d gave promises to the Jewish people and later to Am Yisrael, the Jewish nation


Despite this, don't they call it a Jewish state?

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2007, 09:15:38 PM »

The current Israeli government is not a Jewish Government. There are 10 or so Arabs in the Knesset there is very little that qualifies the Israeli government as a Jewish government. Judaism is a nationality, we are a people- a nation. G-d gave promises to the Jewish people and later to Am Yisrael, the Jewish nation


Despite this, don't they call it a Jewish state?
They do and to a certain extent it is, but not to far enough an extent.
Also I can point at a dog and say it's a human but it doesn't make it so, one can claim whatever they want but that doesnt make it so
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2007, 09:21:02 PM »
I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.



Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?

I would really like to know why.

A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked

1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?

2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.

1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will

By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews.

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2007, 09:24:57 PM »
I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.



Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?

I would really like to know why.

A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked

1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?

2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.

1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will

By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews.
Because while you may consider yourself an American, to the world you are a "Jew." If you believe in the Torah you have to accept all of it, even parts that are hard to deal with. People can be born anywhere but that doesn't shape their identity, identity is understanding your past and predicting where your future is, identity helps you on your path and if a Jew calls himself an "American" he fails to look at his past and therefore will be unable to see his future.
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2007, 09:25:13 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their God-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2007, 09:29:17 PM »


Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!

After WWI, didn't Britain control the amount of Jews who were able to go to Israel?

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2007, 09:30:28 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2007, 09:31:07 PM »
I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.



Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?

I would really like to know why.

A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked

1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?

2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.

1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will

By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews.
Because while you may consider yourself an American, to the world you are a "Jew." If you believe in the Torah you have to accept all of it, even parts that are hard to deal with. People can be born anywhere but that doesn't shape their identity, identity is understanding your past and predicting where your future is, identity helps you on your path and if a Jew calls himself an "American" he fails to look at his past and therefore will be unable to see his future.

I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history. 

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2007, 09:34:59 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.

I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2007, 09:35:57 PM »
I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.



Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?

I would really like to know why.

A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked

1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?

2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.

1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will

By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews.
Because while you may consider yourself an American, to the world you are a "Jew." If you believe in the Torah you have to accept all of it, even parts that are hard to deal with. People can be born anywhere but that doesn't shape their identity, identity is understanding your past and predicting where your future is, identity helps you on your path and if a Jew calls himself an "American" he fails to look at his past and therefore will be unable to see his future.

I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history. 
For the majority of people in the world you are right, identity is not 'predetermined', but for us Jews, our forefathers made a covenant many years ago and we are bound by it, even if we don't like it. We Jews made a promise to G-d and he expects us to do as we promised.
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2007, 09:38:57 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.

I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2007, 10:21:34 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.

I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....

Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.

HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 10:24:24 PM by Trumpeldor »

Offline Ehud

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2007, 10:27:47 PM »
I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one.  Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant?  Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?
"The Jews will eventually have to face up to what you're dealing with here.  The arabs will never love you for what good you've brought them.  They don't know how to really love.  But hate!  Oh, G-d, can they hate!  And they have a deep, deep, deep resentment because you have jolted them from their delusions of grandeur and shown them for what they are-a decadent, savage people controlled by a religion that has stripped them of all human ambition . . . except for the few cruel enough and arrogant enough to command them as one commands a mob of sheep.  You are dealing with a mad society and you'd better learn how to control it."

-Excerpt from The Haj by Leon Uris

Offline Wayne Jude

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2007, 10:36:17 PM »
Because Im Italian and American doesn't mean I don't love America.But our blood line does lead the way

Offline Ari

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2007, 10:41:34 PM »
I don't like these distinctions because America is a Judeo-Christian country and the values should not conflict.  If they do, however, I have to follow G-d's will and support Israel/Judaism first.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2007, 10:46:42 PM »


I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history. 


What do you mean the Torah is just a great book?

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2007, 10:48:09 PM »


I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history. 


What do you mean the Torah is just a great book?

It does not impact my everyday life. I only live by its essentials.

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2007, 10:54:41 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.

I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....

Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.

HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2007, 10:55:55 PM »
I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one.  Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant?  Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?
because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2007, 10:56:43 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.

I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....

Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.

HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?

Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it is practical or even desired.

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2007, 10:58:07 PM »
I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one.  Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant?  Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?
because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.

Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat).

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2007, 10:59:44 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).

To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.

Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.

I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....

Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.

HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?

Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it is practical or even desired.
but we always try to strive for the ideal, so we should do our best to go to Israel and be the best we can
KAHANE TZADAK!