Author Topic: ASK JTF 10/06/22 - Chaim Ben Pesach answers questions from JTFers  (Read 2865 times)

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Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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ื‘ืก''ื“

1. Video version on Rumble (the program is 45 minutes this week): https://rumble.com/embed/v1k7hqi/?pub=ltn9b

2. Video version on Odysee: https://odysee.com/@JTF.ORG:4/80:ec

3. For those who would like to download the file for their MP3 players or iPods: http://www.jtf.org/ask/2022-10-06.mp3

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: ASK JTF 10/06/22 - Chaim Ben Pesach answers questions from JTFers
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2022, 05:42:18 AM »
Chaim, the Torah is eternal and immutable. It won't change in the world to come. All Gentiles are forever obligated to die by the Hand of Heaven if they observe the Sabbath.

I think Rambam's wording is like "for all peoples" in Isaiah 56:7. Rashi explains: "Not only for Israel, but also for the proselytes." 



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Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: ASK JTF 10/06/22 - Chaim Ben Pesach answers questions from JTFers
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2022, 08:29:10 AM »
Chaim, the Torah is eternal and immutable. It won't change in the world to come. All Gentiles are forever obligated to die by the Hand of Heaven if they observe the Sabbath.

I think Rambam's wording is like "for all peoples" in Isaiah 56:7. Rashi explains: "Not only for Israel, but also for the proselytes."

ื‘ืก''ื“

The Torah certainly is eternal and immutable. But how the commandments are observed and interpreted can change if the Sanhedrin (the court of 71 sages seated at the Holy Temple) decides to do so. We are obligated to obey the rulings of the Sanhedrin.

For example, there is a Midrash (Oral Torah teaching) that tells us that all of the current Jewish holidays (including those specified in the Torah) will be nullified in the future except for Purim and Yom Kippur. Heres's the original Hebrew Midrash followed by the translation:

ืžื“ืจืฉ ืžืฉืœื™ ื˜ืณ:ืืณ

...ื›ืœ ื”ืžื•ืขื“ื™ื ืขืชื™ื“ื™ื ื‘ื˜ืœื™ื, ื•ื™ืžื™ ื”ืคื•ืจื™ื ืื™ื ื ื‘ื˜ืœื™ื ืœืขื•ืœื, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ืืกืชืจ ื˜ ื›ื—): "ื•ื™ืžื™ ื”ืคื•ืจื™ื ื”ืืœื” ืœื ื™ืขื‘ืจื• ืžืชื•ืš ื”ื™ื”ื•ื“ื™ื". ืืžืจ ืจื‘ื™ ืืœืขื–ืจ: ืืฃ ื™ื•ื ื”ื›ื™ืคื•ืจื™ื ืื™ื ื• ื‘ื˜ืœ ืœืขื•ืœื, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ื•ื™ืงืจื ื˜ื– ืœื“): "ื•ื”ื™ืชื” ื–ืืช ืœื›ื ืœื—ื•ืงืช ืขื•ืœื ืœื›ืคืจ ืขืœ ื‘ื ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืžื›ืœ ื—ื˜ืืชื ืื—ืช ื‘ืฉื ื”"...

Midrash Mishlei 9:1

...All of the holidays are to be nullified in the future but the days of Purim will not be nullified, as it is stated (Esther 9:28), 'And these days of Purim will not be rescinded from the Jews.'" Rabbi Elazar said, "Also Yom Kippur will forever not be nullified, as it is stated, 'And it will be to you for an everlasting statute to atone for the Children of Israel from all of their sins once a year.'"

Does that mean that part of the Torah will be nullified? G-d forbid! But how we observe the holidays will change when the Sanhedrin decides to do so.

I could go into much more detail about the Gentiles in the next world but will be brief. First of all, there is a difference between bnei Noach and other Gentiles. Bnei Noach are on a much higher spiritual level because they understand that the commandments were given to them by G-d. There is a concept in Judaism of continuous spiritual elevation in the next world. The righteous Gentiles who are granted eternal life will not stand still in the next world. Their spiritual elevation will include eventually adopting other commandments.

Offline Ron

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Re: ASK JTF 10/06/22 - Chaim Ben Pesach answers questions from JTFers
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2022, 10:35:04 AM »
Excellent program Chaim!

I am just unable to understand Jews who can click on a button and take part in a campaign - that even our enemies admit that it is our ONLY CHANCE to save Israel from national catastrophe - but choose not to. I just can't.
We must help the Hilltop Youth heroes!

Their fight is our fight.

How you can help and participate in the sacred cause:

https://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,94604.0.html

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: ASK JTF 10/06/22 - Chaim Ben Pesach answers questions from JTFers
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2022, 10:35:55 AM »
ื‘ืก''ื“

The Torah certainly is eternal and immutable. But how the commandments are observed and interpreted can change if the Sanhedrin (the court of 71 sages seated at the Holy Temple) decides to do so. We are obligated to obey the rulings of the Sanhedrin.

For example, there is a Midrash (Oral Torah teaching) that tells us that all of the current Jewish holidays (including those specified in the Torah) will be nullified in the future except for Purim and Yom Kippur. Heres's the original Hebrew Midrash followed by the translation:

ืžื“ืจืฉ ืžืฉืœื™ ื˜ืณ:ืืณ

...ื›ืœ ื”ืžื•ืขื“ื™ื ืขืชื™ื“ื™ื ื‘ื˜ืœื™ื, ื•ื™ืžื™ ื”ืคื•ืจื™ื ืื™ื ื ื‘ื˜ืœื™ื ืœืขื•ืœื, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ืืกืชืจ ื˜ ื›ื—): "ื•ื™ืžื™ ื”ืคื•ืจื™ื ื”ืืœื” ืœื ื™ืขื‘ืจื• ืžืชื•ืš ื”ื™ื”ื•ื“ื™ื". ืืžืจ ืจื‘ื™ ืืœืขื–ืจ: ืืฃ ื™ื•ื ื”ื›ื™ืคื•ืจื™ื ืื™ื ื• ื‘ื˜ืœ ืœืขื•ืœื, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ื•ื™ืงืจื ื˜ื– ืœื“): "ื•ื”ื™ืชื” ื–ืืช ืœื›ื ืœื—ื•ืงืช ืขื•ืœื ืœื›ืคืจ ืขืœ ื‘ื ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืžื›ืœ ื—ื˜ืืชื ืื—ืช ื‘ืฉื ื”"...

Midrash Mishlei 9:1

...All of the holidays are to be nullified in the future but the days of Purim will not be nullified, as it is stated (Esther 9:28), 'And these days of Purim will not be rescinded from the Jews.'" Rabbi Elazar said, "Also Yom Kippur will forever not be nullified, as it is stated, 'And it will be to you for an everlasting statute to atone for the Children of Israel from all of their sins once a year.'"

Does that mean that part of the Torah will be nullified? G-d forbid! But how we observe the holidays will change when the Sanhedrin decides to do so.

I could go into much more detail about the Gentiles in the next world but will be brief. First of all, there is a difference between bnei Noach and other Gentiles. Bnei Noach are on a much higher spiritual level because they understand that the commandments were given to them by G-d. There is a concept in Judaism of continuous spiritual elevation in the next world. The righteous Gentiles who are granted eternal life will not stand still in the next world. Their spiritual elevation will include eventually adopting other commandments.

We are not allowed to derive Torah Law from the prophecy of anyone other than Moses. A Midrash on Mishlei can never overrule the accepted majority opinion that Gentiles are not allowed to add to their 7 commandments. A Sanhedrin that contradicts the majority opinion is heretical. I gave a specific example of heretical Sanhedrin courts in a previous question. 

The terms B'nei Noah, children of Noah, Gentiles and non-Jews are synonyms. You probably rely on Rambam's ruling in Laws of Kings 10:10: "We should not prevent a Noachide who desires to perform one of the Torah's mitzvot in order to receive reward from doing so, provided he performs it as required."

His reward in this context refers to the practical benefit he receives. However, if a Gentile observes any of the Jewish commandments from the Torah as a religious obligation (even if he does so from a desire to receive a spiritual reward), this is forbidden based on the prohibition of adding a commandment, and there is no spiritual reward to be derived from this.
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Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: ASK JTF 10/06/22 - Chaim Ben Pesach answers questions from JTFers
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2022, 07:14:39 AM »
We are not allowed to derive Torah Law from the prophecy of anyone other than Moses. A Midrash on Mishlei can never overrule the accepted majority opinion that Gentiles are not allowed to add to their 7 commandments. A Sanhedrin that contradicts the majority opinion is heretical. I gave a specific example of heretical Sanhedrin courts in a previous question. 

The terms B'nei Noah, children of Noah, Gentiles and non-Jews are synonyms. You probably rely on Rambam's ruling in Laws of Kings 10:10: "We should not prevent a Noachide who desires to perform one of the Torah's mitzvot in order to receive reward from doing so, provided he performs it as required."

His reward in this context refers to the practical benefit he receives. However, if a Gentile observes any of the Jewish commandments from the Torah as a religious obligation (even if he does so from a desire to receive a spiritual reward), this is forbidden based on the prohibition of adding a commandment, and there is no spiritual reward to be derived from this.

ื‘ืก''ื“

1. There is no "majority opinion" that bnei Noach must forever observe only 7 commandments. There is not even a minority opinion to that effect.

2. Deuteronomy (17:8-13) commands the Jews to appoint a Sanhedrin that will convene at the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. In Deuteronomy, we are commanded to abide by the Torah rulings of the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin determines Torah law. From ืกืคืจ ื“ื‘ืจื™ื Deuteronomy (17:10-13):

10 And you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they instruct you.

11 According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left.

12 And the man who acts intentionally, not obeying the kohen who stands there to serve the Lord, your God, or to the judge that man shall die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel.

13 And all the people shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer act wantonly.

You will notice that anyone who intentionally disobeys the Sanhedrin rulings faces the death penalty.

3. You mention heretical Sanhedrins. The Mashiach (Messiah) will rebuild the Third Temple and the Sanhedrin that will be appointed in the Messianic era and in the world to come will not be heretical.

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: ASK JTF 10/06/22 - Chaim Ben Pesach answers questions from JTFers
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2022, 09:50:44 AM »
ื‘ืก''ื“

1. There is no "majority opinion" that bnei Noach must forever observe only 7 commandments. There is not even a minority opinion to that effect.

2. Deuteronomy (17:8-13) commands the Jews to appoint a Sanhedrin that will convene at the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. In Deuteronomy, we are commanded to abide by the Torah rulings of the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin determines Torah law. From ืกืคืจ ื“ื‘ืจื™ื Deuteronomy (17:10-13):

10 And you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they instruct you.

11 According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left.

12 And the man who acts intentionally, not obeying the kohen who stands there to serve the Lord, your God, or to the judge that man shall die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel.

13 And all the people shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer act wantonly.

You will notice that anyone who intentionally disobeys the Sanhedrin rulings faces the death penalty.

3. You mention heretical Sanhedrins. The Mashiach (Messiah) will rebuild the Third Temple and the Sanhedrin that will be appointed in the Messianic era and in the world to come will not be heretical.

Of course there is.

From Maimonides, Laws of Kings 10:9: "They are not to be allowed to originate a new religion or create mitzvot for themselves based on their own decisions. They may either become righteous converts and accept all the mitzvot or retain their statutes without adding or detracting from them."

From Sanhedrin 59a: "And Rabbi Yoแธฅanan says: A gentile who engages in Torah study is liable to receive the death penalty; as it is stated: โ€œMoses commanded us a law [torah], an inheritance of the congregation of Jacobโ€ (Deuteronomy 33:4), indicating that it is an inheritance for us, and not for them."

I will repeat the ruling of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Igrot Moshe Yoreh De'ah vol. 2, ch.7: "If a Gentile observes any of the Jewish commandments from the Torah as a religious obligation (even if he does so from a desire to receive a spiritual reward), this is forbidden based on the prohibition of adding a commandment, and there is no spiritual reward to be derived from this."

The Divine Code by Rabbi Weiner has a whole chapter on the Noahide prohibition of creating a new religion and adding a commandment.

Gentiles are not commanded to obey the Jewish Sanhedrin. We are commanded to set up our own courts. There is a fundamental principle of obeying Jewish Torah scholars in general, like the scholars who teach us not to add to our 7 commandments.

Why on earth would the Sanhedrin create a new religion for Gentiles where they have 8, 9 or more commandments, and why would Gentiles accept it?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2022, 11:48:58 AM by Hrvatski Noahid »
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Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: ASK JTF 10/06/22 - Chaim Ben Pesach answers questions from JTFers
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2022, 08:00:51 AM »
Of course there is.

From Maimonides, Laws of Kings 10:9: "They are not to be allowed to originate a new religion or create mitzvot for themselves based on their own decisions. They may either become righteous converts and accept all the mitzvot or retain their statutes without adding or detracting from them."

From Sanhedrin 59a: "And Rabbi Yoแธฅanan says: A gentile who engages in Torah study is liable to receive the death penalty; as it is stated: โ€œMoses commanded us a law [torah], an inheritance of the congregation of Jacobโ€ (Deuteronomy 33:4), indicating that it is an inheritance for us, and not for them."

I will repeat the ruling of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Igrot Moshe Yoreh De'ah vol. 2, ch.7: "If a Gentile observes any of the Jewish commandments from the Torah as a religious obligation (even if he does so from a desire to receive a spiritual reward), this is forbidden based on the prohibition of adding a commandment, and there is no spiritual reward to be derived from this."

The Divine Code by Rabbi Weiner has a whole chapter on the Noahide prohibition of creating a new religion and adding a commandment.

Gentiles are not commanded to obey the Jewish Sanhedrin. We are commanded to set up our own courts. There is a fundamental principle of obeying Jewish Torah scholars in general, like the scholars who teach us not to add to our 7 commandments.

Why on earth would the Sanhedrin create a new religion for Gentiles where they have 8, 9 or more commandments, and why would Gentiles accept it?

ื‘ืก''ื“

Your question is fully answered on this week's program:

https://rumble.com/embed/v1l6bd0/?pub=ltn9b