JTF.ORG Forum
Kahanist Singles => Jewish Singles => Topic started by: admin on May 22, 2008, 12:56:26 AM
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I think it should in order to protect the people that would otherwise sin.
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I need to be able to shake people's hands. Or if I get handed something by someone, I really don't care if their hand brushes mine.
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Yacov, I dont think this would be implemented even with a kahanist government in Israel. Chaim said things like this would be hard for Israelis to digest.
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If it means hand shaking that's normal, if it means promiscuous/sexual pre-marital touching, then yes it should be banned.
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What is this, Iran?
Yes it should in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
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Yacov, I dont think this would be implemented even with a kahanist government in Israel. Chaim said things like this would be hard for Israelis to digest.
So what do you think about it? Are you personally against touching women?
Yacov, I am not sure what the rules are according to the torah. Obviously having an intimate relationship outside of marriage is forbidden according to the torah but I am not sure where the line is set. I am not sure exactly what is forbidden as far as regular touching is concerned. I think Chaim said that Rabbi Kahane shook hands with women so I guess touching is permitted. Obviously touching with the intent to commit a sin is wrong.
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So what do you think about it? Are you personally against touching women?
No I am not. I know that touching women was not the thing that made me have premarital sex. All of us have natural urges and as long as we are around women we are going to want to have sex with them. I think values need to be instilled back in to the general population. We have a media/advertising industry that sells everything with sex and sexualizes very young girls. We have large segments of the population who regard women as female dogs because they do not have fathers to teach them otherwise.
I would like to add that after all these years I now know that premarital sex is not a good thing but it happens all the time (I am not encouraging it). A certain aspect of intimacy if forever lost with your future wife.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.
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Jews are very intelligent and enlightened people if you try to do something like this there in Israel I don't think they'll be happy.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this,
I agree 100%. I also think threads like this may freak out outsiders that may have had thoughts of joining JTF. Oh well.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this,
I agree 100%. I also think threads like this may freak out outsiders that may have had thoughts of joining JTF. Oh well.
Look Baltimore, JTF should do what the leaders think is right for Israel, I'm just expressing my opinion that if Chaim tries to ban premarital sex in Israel or ban other things that are banned in muslim countries Israelis will revolt.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this,
I agree 100%. I also think threads like this may freak out outsiders that may have had thoughts of joining JTF. Oh well.
Look Baltimore, JTF should do what the leaders think is right for Israel, I'm just expressing my opinion that if Chaim tries to ban premarital sex in Israel or ban other things that are banned in muslim countries Israelis will revolt.
I agree with you. I do not think Chaim would try to do things like this.
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Yacov, threads like this make people think JTF is made up of a bunch of loons like the Satmar or the dog trainer and his movement. You know Chaim would not push for this and that the overwhelming majority of even devout Christians and Jews would never support it.
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I agree with the notion that this could never work in Israel or any other society where people live freely. Only in a muzzy country could this work or does it belong in. I am not condoning having any sort of pre marital relations, it is obviously not a good thing. We cannot ban things like this though. On the platform of throwing muzzies out and securing Israel, I have no doubt that we will see Chaim being elected. Even Chaim himself said that he will never legislate forcing people to be religious. He will set a good example and will make them want to be religious.
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Do you mean touching in an sexual sense or in gerneral?
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I think it should in order to protect the people that would otherwise sin.
I don't think banning and making these things laws on the private lives of citizens is a good idea.
It's a matter of choice if one wants to be Shomer Negia.
I make my personal choice to avoid doing certain things which might include kissing a girl a certain way before I marry her because it makes the relationship in the future much better...but that's for me and my future wife to decide...Not Yaacov...nor any government that feels it needs to control every bit of life of its citizens. To do that is BOLSHEVISM!!!
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Before people keep on dogging on Yacov's posts I have a few things to say....
1) This is for Jews. No one is saying for it to be banned for Gentiles.So if you're a Gentile don't worry about it.
2) Jewish Men should not touch women and Jewish women should not touch men period!! No if or buts! That's the way things are! Only family can hug (mother-son, sister-brother) hug, shake hands etc... And only a husband and wife can touch when she is not niddah.
This post and the rest are according to RELIGIOUS Judaism!! That's the way things are. No interdancing and no touching. I'm sorry if it bothers people, but that's the way the religious Jewish lifestyle is.
Many MANY religious Jews are against touching the opposite gender (like...CHABAD, Breslov etc..) Opting to not even shake a hand. So this small thread is not the end of the world.
Look at religious Orthodox Jews...when do they touch people of the opposite gender? They don't and they are against it except to save a life.
And it's hypothetical! It's not going to be really be banned, he is just asking about what ethics we should use in our lives!!!! I am sick of every time a thread like this goes up everyone starts dogging on Yacov, acting like this is a serious thread, when it's an opinion poll.
And before people start saying "but it makes us look bad"...1. Since when do we care. 2. Again this is a HYPOTHETICAL post. 3. Not everyone agrees with everything individual JTFers think. Posts like these are to discuss personal opinions on religious Jewish ethics, so we can agree to disagree. I'm sorry but people act like just because Yacov puts a thread like this, it's going to be the end of the universe. A simple yes or no answer and a polite explanation will do.
1-No one is going to really make it a law
2- No one asked Chaim to make it a law on the forum. I don't know where people got the idea that "Chaim would not approve" NO ONE is asking him to ban "touching"
3-It's not a real thread, it's an OPINION poll.
NO WHERE does Yacov mention how it should become a law in Israel etc. Again it's just an opinion poll!
Please excuse my tone.
This is my final word on the matter. Again I apologize. In case anyone is upset about my response,I am sorry but I will not discuss it here further. Anyone feel free to contact an Admin or someone about it.
I just had to get it off my chest.
I would never join any movement that wanted to impose anything about my religion down my throat. If JTF suddenly turned around and did this, I would feel betrayed and withdraw myself from here.
Like I said, I love Judaism.. I love Torah..I love the infinte wisdom of the Rabbis...But I despise it when a religious Jew tells any less religious Jew that everything he/she does is a sin and that they will DIE or NEVER come back in the world to come if they don't become religious like them...
and I will repeat..I respect and look up to those who CHOOSE for themselves to be shomer negia..I really have to hand it to them for following the IDEAL thing...It is a beautiful thing.
And it's not just shomer negia..it's shomer shabbat, shomer kashrut, those who wish to make Aliya to Israel, wear certain clothes, etc..I have a lot of respect for anyone who does that..Please, yaacov, and whomever here is a firebrand Jew, WATCH IT with these banning posts! YOu are in a way saying that people like me will die, GD forbid, if I touch a girl lovingly even if it means kissing her on the cheek...man, if that's the case, I might as well have sex with her, Gd forbid, before I marry her!
Adam and Eve sinned because Gd only said, "Don't eat from that tree." and then the serpeant tempted them by saying, "Touch it, see? nothing happened." My point in this is that Judaism isn't a theology that assumes that kissing is equally as bad as sex...The Rabbis were much much smarter than that! That simply kissing or touching was a thing that can lead to sex in most human beings...but the magic word is "CAN" lead to such things...My respect to those who "CAN" pull that off.
Chaim would never allow this either...nor woudl any Israeli...any movement in ISrael who attempted to do this would be the laughing stock of the nation. I can assure you of that. but i have no problem with Chaim's view that he woudl want an ideal Torah abiding nation which might include citizens, themselves, making the choice of being shomer negia, rather than being forced to do so like Yaacov implies.
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I think the ''Ban this, and Ban that'' threads should be banned.
They don't accomplish anything (useful).
Anyway, that's my opinion.
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No, am opposed to it being banned. What one does in their own private home between two consenting adults should be between them.
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Before people keep on dogging on Yacov's posts I have a few things to say....
1) This is for Jews. No one is saying for it to be banned for Gentiles.So if you're a Gentile don't worry about it.
2) Jewish Men should not touch women and Jewish women should not touch men period!! No if or buts! That's the way things are! Only family can hug (mother-son, sister-brother) hug, shake hands etc... And only a husband and wife can touch when she is not niddah.
This post and the rest are according to RELIGIOUS Judaism!! That's the way things are. No interdancing and no touching. I'm sorry if it bothers people, but that's the way the religious Jewish lifestyle is.
Many MANY religious Jews are against touching the opposite gender (like...CHABAD, Breslov etc..) Opting to not even shake a hand. So this small thread is not the end of the world.
Look at religious Orthodox Jews...when do they touch people of the opposite gender? They don't and they are against it except to save a life.
And it's hypothetical! It's not going to be really be banned, he is just asking about what ethics we should use in our lives!!!! I am sick of every time a thread like this goes up everyone starts dogging on Yacov, acting like this is a serious thread, when it's an opinion poll.
And before people start saying "but it makes us look bad"...1. Since when do we care. 2. Again this is a HYPOTHETICAL post. 3. Not everyone agrees with everything individual JTFers think. Posts like these are to discuss personal opinions on religious Jewish ethics, so we can agree to disagree. I'm sorry but people act like just because Yacov puts a thread like this, it's going to be the end of the universe. A simple yes or no answer and a polite explanation will do.
1-No one is going to really make it a law
2- No one asked Chaim to make it a law on the forum. I don't know where people got the idea that "Chaim would not approve" NO ONE is asking him to ban "touching"
3-It's not a real thread, it's an OPINION poll.
NO WHERE does Yacov mention how it should become a law in Israel etc. Again it's just an opinion poll!
Please excuse my tone.
This is my final word on the matter. Again I apologize. In case anyone is upset about my response,I am sorry but I will not discuss it here further. Anyone feel free to contact an Admin or someone about it.
I just had to get it off my chest.
O0
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A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
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Before people keep on dogging on Yacov's posts I have a few things to say....
1) This is for Jews. No one is saying for it to be banned for Gentiles.So if you're a Gentile don't worry about it.
2) Jewish Men should not touch women and Jewish women should not touch men period!! No if or buts! That's the way things are! Only family can hug (mother-son, sister-brother) hug, shake hands etc... And only a husband and wife can touch when she is not niddah.
This post and the rest are according to RELIGIOUS Judaism!! That's the way things are. No interdancing and no touching. I'm sorry if it bothers people, but that's the way the religious Jewish lifestyle is.
Many MANY religious Jews are against touching the opposite gender (like...CHABAD, Breslov etc..) Opting to not even shake a hand. So this small thread is not the end of the world.
Look at religious Orthodox Jews...when do they touch people of the opposite gender? They don't and they are against it except to save a life.
And it's hypothetical! It's not going to be really be banned, he is just asking about what ethics we should use in our lives!!!! I am sick of every time a thread like this goes up everyone starts dogging on Yacov, acting like this is a serious thread, when it's an opinion poll.
And before people start saying "but it makes us look bad"...1. Since when do we care. 2. Again this is a HYPOTHETICAL post. 3. Not everyone agrees with everything individual JTFers think. Posts like these are to discuss personal opinions on religious Jewish ethics, so we can agree to disagree. I'm sorry but people act like just because Yacov puts a thread like this, it's going to be the end of the universe. A simple yes or no answer and a polite explanation will do.
1-No one is going to really make it a law
2- No one asked Chaim to make it a law on the forum. I don't know where people got the idea that "Chaim would not approve" NO ONE is asking him to ban "touching"
3-It's not a real thread, it's an OPINION poll.
NO WHERE does Yacov mention how it should become a law in Israel etc. Again it's just an opinion poll!
Please excuse my tone.
This is my final word on the matter. Again I apologize. In case anyone is upset about my response,I am sorry but I will not discuss it here further. Anyone feel free to contact an Admin or someone about it.
I just had to get it off my chest.
Admins, would it be a good idea to have these threads in a new section of the form, as they are clearly contraversial and having them away from the General Discussion would keep people who dislike them from looking at them?
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A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
It is almost impossible to draw someone's blood without touching them.
That kind of touching is different isn't it?
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A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
It is almost impossible to draw someone's blood without touching them.
That kind of touching is different isn't it?
I don'nt know what he means by touching
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No, am opposed to it being banned. What one does in their own private home between two consenting adults should be between them.
O0
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What do you mean by touching?!
How are you going to enforce such laws?
I think we should forcus on REAL issues, let's not worry about things of this nature at this point... I mean that in a nice way. :)
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A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
It is almost impossible to draw someone's blood without touching them.
That kind of touching is different isn't it?
That kind of Contact is permissible because it is for medical reasons.
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A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
It is almost impossible to draw someone's blood without touching them.
That kind of touching is different isn't it?
That kind of Contact is permissible because it is for medical reasons.
I see religious orthodox women from Monroe NY for dental work...I know that i have no choice to touch their mouths as i work on them..however, I'm still careful as i place the paper napkin on them not to touch them..
But i do it out of respect...no other reason.
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I've heard horrible stories from the Muslim world about how women can not get needed medical care because their husbands refuse to let them see a male doctor (these women definitely don't get gynecological care, breast exams, or pap smears, because their husbands won't let them go to a male doctor for these things). Female doctors in the Muslim world are almost unheard of, although some exist. So if women have a medical problem that needs to be treated they often have to suffer in pain in silence.
Imagine having a cavity and having it cause you pain day after day, with no way to get help because there are no female dentists. Imagine the tooth rotting and being unable to eat on that side, and waking up every day to pain until the tooth just rotted and died.
In a medical situation it may be impossible to know whether the needed medical treatment is something minor or something that may save a life. An itchy mole could be benign or cancerous, for example.
And what's wrong, in a business situation, such as two CEOs meeting, with them shaking hands? Are they going to jump on each other in the boardroom in front of other workers in a business meeting?
Doing things like this would restrict women's power in the business world.
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I am against banning contact and I think it should be a personal choice and a legal ban would be intrusive to the personal freedom.
Personally I'd rather that the habit of handshakes would die out because to me it seems like a perfect way to exchange viruses and other pathogens between individuals. I think we should replace it with a non-contact gesture.
Unfortunately it seems that things are heading the other way at list here in Israel, it becomes increasingly customary for man and woman, woman and woman and even two man to hug and kiss in social circumstances (Did you see Smolmert kissing W ?).
(http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/printed/P180508/a.0.1805.1.1.9.jpg)
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I am against banning contact and I think it should be a personal choice and a legal ban would be intrusive to the personal freedom.
Personally I'd rather that the habit of handshakes would die out because to me it seems like a perfect way to exchange viruses and other pathogens between individuals. I think we should replace it with a non-contact gesture.
Unfortunately it seems that things are heading the other way at list here in Israel, it becomes increasingly customary for man and woman, woman and woman and even two man to hug and kiss in social circumstances (Did you see Smolmert kissing W ?).
They do that in Europe they shake hands and kiss both cheeks
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I've heard horrible stories from the Muslim world about how women can not get needed medical care because their husbands refuse to let them see a male doctor (these women definitely don't get gynecological care, breast exams, or pap smears, because their husbands won't let them go to a male doctor for these things). Female doctors in the Muslim world are almost unheard of, although some exist. So if women have a medical problem that needs to be treated they often have to suffer in pain in silence.
Imagine having a cavity and having it cause you pain day after day, with no way to get help because there are no female dentists. Imagine the tooth rotting and being unable to eat on that side, and waking up every day to pain until the tooth just rotted and died.
In a medical situation it may be impossible to know whether the needed medical treatment is something minor or something that may save a life. An itchy mole could be benign or cancerous, for example.
And what's wrong, in a business situation, such as two CEOs meeting, with them shaking hands? Are they going to jump on each other in the boardroom in front of other workers in a business meeting?
Doing things like this would restrict women's power in the business world.
actually it's a good thing that Muslim countries do that to women...now they can't have kids and therefore fewer people to hate us and wish death up on us..I say..I hope Muslims continue implementing these silly koranic rules until they all disappear..or till someone gets smart and changes the whole religion so that there is finally peace in this world.
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No, not at all, I don't see whats wrong with hand shaking or any form of effection. If you have compossure and not a beast then you shouldn't worry about things like this. I shake hands of women all the time, I grew basically on the beach, if you are a responsible adult, if you are someone who has a concious then these things would not be a factor to you. I am not married and I take the vows of marriage seriously but if I meet some of my friends and some happen to be females we give a hug and kiss in the cheek doesn't mean we are hoping in the sack.
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Wow- what a thread to wake up to. Well, I believe that most people on this forum have convictions. These beliefs must be held into account by each individual. I shake hands and say hi to people I sense have good spirit, thats ME. However- sex b4 marriage? To be perfectly candid- women dont want this, they REALLY dont. I am talking of women of religious conviction. Good men are STRONG, and can handle this. Weaker men can't, they give over to their lusts- it just proves that lust & desire rules over religion, conviction and belief, which is sad. Women like to be courted, and wait for that most special night. Every good young woman, older as well, just believe that it is worth it, for their chastity. I am a TOTAL prude. Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
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A few weeks ago i went for a medical check up the nurse took a blood test afterwards she put a band aid on.Should i have told her give me that band aid i don'nt want you to touch me she would have thought i was paranoid or insane.
It is almost impossible to draw someone's blood without touching them.
That kind of touching is different isn't it?
That kind of Contact is permissible because it is for medical reasons.
Thank You for answering my question.
The person drawing Mord's blood would have thought him batty :D if he asked not to be touched.
I think if people choose not to engage in pre-marital touching - their choice should be respected.
I don't think it could be banned.
Come to think of it...if the young people today engaged in a little less pre-marital touching we would have less unwanted pregnancies and people with STDs.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.
Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.
JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.
The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.
Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!
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I agree with Mills. This is a religeous Jewish question.
Perhaps Yacov could have rephrased his question.
The word 'ban' is strong, yet vague.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.
Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.
JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.
The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.
Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!
Why does everyone bash Thomas Jefferson on here?
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Wow- what a thread to wake up to. Well, I believe that most people on this forum have convictions. These beliefs must be held into account by each individual. I shake hands and say hi to people I sense have good spirit, thats ME. However- sex b4 marriage? To be perfectly candid- women dont want this, they REALLY dont. I am talking of women of religious conviction. Good men are STRONG, and can handle this. Weaker men can't, they give over to their lusts- it just proves that lust & desire rules over religion, conviction and belief, which is sad. Women like to be courted, and wait for that most special night. Every good young woman, older as well, just believe that it is worth it, for their chastity. I am a TOTAL prude. Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
I believe in waiting until marriage to have sex. I believe premarital sex is sinful. I also think it's sinful to lust after someone and imagine doing things to them in your mind even if you don't touch them. I just don't equate that to shaking hands with a business partner or brushing against someone in a crowd or a medical exam.
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No idea Jefferson seemed to me as a nice enough guy ;D
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No idea Jefferson seemed to me as a nice enough guy ;D
He was pro gun too.
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Wow- what a thread to wake up to. Well, I believe that most people on this forum have convictions. These beliefs must be held into account by each individual. I shake hands and say hi to people I sense have good spirit, thats ME. However- sex b4 marriage? To be perfectly candid- women dont want this, they REALLY dont. I am talking of women of religious conviction. Good men are STRONG, and can handle this. Weaker men can't, they give over to their lusts- it just proves that lust & desire rules over religion, conviction and belief, which is sad. Women like to be courted, and wait for that most special night. Every good young woman, older as well, just believe that it is worth it, for their chastity. I am a TOTAL prude. Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
I believe in waiting until marriage to have sex. I believe premarital sex is sinful. I also think it's sinful to lust after someone and imagine doing things to them in your mind even if you don't touch them. I just don't equate that to shaking hands with a business partner or brushing against someone in a crowd or a medical exam.
Yep, but the way our society is advancing, handshaking will be equivalent to a one night stand pretty much. Pretty sad.
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No idea Jefferson seemed to me as a nice enough guy ;D
He was pro gun too.
So where all the founders O0
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Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
Isn't he Jewish and you are not? ???
Anyway dont worry you dont have to wait, but Jews have to.
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Wow- what a thread to wake up to. Well, I believe that most people on this forum have convictions. These beliefs must be held into account by each individual. I shake hands and say hi to people I sense have good spirit, thats ME. However- sex b4 marriage? To be perfectly candid- women dont want this, they REALLY dont. I am talking of women of religious conviction. Good men are STRONG, and can handle this. Weaker men can't, they give over to their lusts- it just proves that lust & desire rules over religion, conviction and belief, which is sad. Women like to be courted, and wait for that most special night. Every good young woman, older as well, just believe that it is worth it, for their chastity. I am a TOTAL prude. Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
i totally agree...this should be a reason for all good and decent people to do the right thing even when it comes down to making physical contact with the opposite sex.
I personally, unless a female's hand is offered to me (that is a total stranger), give a little bow...really out of respect.
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Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
Isn't he Jewish and you are not? ???
Anyway dont worry you dont have to wait, but Jews have to.
no paulette is jewish i'm pretty sure of it..am i right?
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I dont know if we would be able to contol outright banning right away, but it should definitly be in the atmosphere that such behavior is wrong and those who do soo should be put to shame. And that not only goes for the kids but also the parents (expecially of girls) who let their daughters go around on the streets not dressed properly, and the parents or guardians not knowing where and who she is with.
The most important thing is to set the right culture and way of thinking, through "Washing the brain" aka brainwashing, from all the filth that the Jewish Neshama might have contracted from the media and others.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I don't think man get sexual enjoyment from hand shakes (with the possible exception of some weird fetishes), and if they do get sexual pleasure then they get it even more so from looking and hearing a woman, so men simply better behave themselves and if they can't their place is in the Zoo.
Moreover if you wouldn't shake the hand of attractive women I think you should avoid it altogether because otherwise you would be implicitly calling some woman unattractive and that might hurt them.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.
Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.
JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.
The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.
Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!
Why does everyone bash Thomas Jefferson on here?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html)
Thomas Jefferson was not a true G-d fearing Christian but a deist, which is similar to a secular humanist.
He only pretended to be a Christian for political reasons like many of the politicians of today. Jefferson gets way too much credit for his role in the founding of the U.S.
He despised real Christians and detested Jews, his phrase "wall of separation between Church and State" has become the shield for atheists to use against religious Christians in the U.S. And has become a standard that Israeli secularists seek to live up to.
Jefferson was not even involved in writing the U.S. Constitution because he was the U.S. minister to France at the time, and later supported the Jacobin faction during the French Revolution.
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Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
Isn't he Jewish and you are not? ???
Anyway dont worry you dont have to wait, but Jews have to.
no paulette is jewish i'm pretty sure of it..am i right?
I am Jewish from my MOMS side of the family, TYVM. ;) Even if I had NO roots, in Judaism, I would still stay true to my belief that this is not good, perhaps its just the Jew in me. >:( I mean COME ON!! What do you think anyway, that some other young girls grew up with ZERO scruples? Bad parenting b/c they are not Jewish? That is very BIASED. My BEST friend was a Catholic girl- 36 yrs we were BEST friends- she had EXCELLENT parenting and saved herself for MARRIAGE. Jeeeezzzzzzzz!!!! Sex b4 marriage is NOT good. PERIOD. Jew or NOT.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.
Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.
JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.
The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.
Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!
Why does everyone bash Thomas Jefferson on here?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html)
Thomas Jefferson was not a true G-d fearing Christian but a deist, which is similar to a secular humanist.
He only pretended to be a Christian for political reasons like many of the politicians of today. Jefferson gets way too much credit for his role in the founding of the U.S.
He despised real Christians and detested Jews, his phrase "wall of separation between Church and State" has become the shield for atheists to use against religious Christians in the U.S. And has become a standard that Israeli secularists seek to live up to.
Jefferson was not even involved in writing the U.S. Constitution because he was the U.S. minister to France at the time, and later supported the Jacobin faction during the French Revolution.
Weren't most of the founding fathers free masons/deist escaping religious persecution in Europe?
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I've never heard of anyone getting pleasure in shaking a womens hand, I guess in this crazy world, anythings possible though.
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Ask David ben Moshe. I am a PRUDE and PROUD of it. I am WORTH the wait, HE IS WORTH the wait. ;)
Isn't he Jewish and you are not? ???
Anyway dont worry you dont have to wait, but Jews have to.
no paulette is jewish i'm pretty sure of it..am i right?
I am Jewish from my MOMS side of the family, TYVM. ;) Even if I had NO roots, in Judaism, I would still stay true to my belief that this is not good, perhaps its just the Jew in me. >:( I mean COME ON!! What do you think anyway, that some other young girls grew up with ZERO scruples? Bad parenting b/c they are not Jewish? That is very BIASED. My BEST friend was a Catholic girl- 36 yrs we were BEST friends- she had EXCELLENT parenting and saved herself for MARRIAGE. Jeeeezzzzzzzz!!!! Sex b4 marriage is NOT good. PERIOD. Jew or NOT.
Then you are Jewish, Halahically. (if your mom is Jewish and her mom is Jewish).
What I meant is that if you aren't Jewish you didn't have to (from G-d's point of view) to have a "marriage" because technically the marriage certificate that one gets is a legal contract (having more to do with buisness, then religion). But a Jewish person has to have a Ketuva and a religious contract to be with a person. (they are concidered married), but if one is a gentile the act and being together is concidered as marriage. And a noahide doesn't need to be worried.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I've never heard of anyone getting pleasure in shaking a womens hand, I guess in this crazy world, anythings possible though.
If a man never touches women, obviously he will get turned on by touching a woman.
Even this one?
(http://www.funnyhub.com/pictures/img/scary-hillary-clinton.jpg)
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.
Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.
JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.
The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.
Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!
Why does everyone bash Thomas Jefferson on here?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html)
Thomas Jefferson was not a true G-d fearing Christian but a deist, which is similar to a secular humanist.
He only pretended to be a Christian for political reasons like many of the politicians of today. Jefferson gets way too much credit for his role in the founding of the U.S.
He despised real Christians and detested Jews, his phrase "wall of separation between Church and State" has become the shield for atheists to use against religious Christians in the U.S. And has become a standard that Israeli secularists seek to live up to.
Jefferson was not even involved in writing the U.S. Constitution because he was the U.S. minister to France at the time, and later supported the Jacobin faction during the French Revolution.
Weren't most of the founding fathers free masons/deist escaping religious persecution in Europe?
You're thinking of the Puritans who fled the Anglican Church of England. They certainly were not exactly friendly towards Jews.
But by the time of founding fathers there was a more hospital atmosphere towards Jews in America.
Despite the myths of secularists most of the Founding Fathers were religious, and opposed an established Church that existed in England because they saw it was a corrupting political influence on religion.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.
Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.
JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.
The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.
Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!
Why does everyone bash Thomas Jefferson on here?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html)
Thomas Jefferson was not a true G-d fearing Christian but a deist, which is similar to a secular humanist.
He only pretended to be a Christian for political reasons like many of the politicians of today. Jefferson gets way too much credit for his role in the founding of the U.S.
He despised real Christians and detested Jews, his phrase "wall of separation between Church and State" has become the shield for atheists to use against religious Christians in the U.S. And has become a standard that Israeli secularists seek to live up to.
Jefferson was not even involved in writing the U.S. Constitution because he was the U.S. minister to France at the time, and later supported the Jacobin faction during the French Revolution.
Weren't most of the founding fathers free masons/deist escaping religious persecution in Europe?
You're thinking of the Puritans who fled the Anglican Church of England. They certainly were not exactly friendly towards Jews.
But by the time of founding fathers there was a more hospital atmosphere towards Jews in America.
Despite the myths of secularists most of the Founding Fathers were religious, and opposed an established Church that existed in England because they saw it was a corrupting political influence on religion.
With how corrupt our school systems and our courts are, I wonder if the name of G-d and the 10 commandments should even be tainted in such a way in those court houses.
Theres nothing holy about our governmental institutes.
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People will not support JTF if Chaim tries to ban things like this, Jews are not backward people they are very civilized they are basically Europeans. This kinda stuff can work in Iran but not in Israel.
Civilized and Europeans are two words that do not go together. If you call the degenerate culture of Europe civilized then we have a problem as to where this movement is going.
JTF is not a libertarian free for all but a Jewish movement for restoring Judaism to Israel.
The problem is that too many Jews have become as HaRav Kahane would say Hellenized into thinking that Judaism is a Western Value.
Too quote HaRav Kahane "most Jews wouldn't know a Jewish concept if they tripped over one"
"Thomas Jefferson and John Locke do not express Jewish values"!!!
Why does everyone bash Thomas Jefferson on here?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jeffjews.html)
Thomas Jefferson was not a true G-d fearing Christian but a deist, which is similar to a secular humanist.
He only pretended to be a Christian for political reasons like many of the politicians of today. Jefferson gets way too much credit for his role in the founding of the U.S.
He despised real Christians and detested Jews, his phrase "wall of separation between Church and State" has become the shield for atheists to use against religious Christians in the U.S. And has become a standard that Israeli secularists seek to live up to.
Jefferson was not even involved in writing the U.S. Constitution because he was the U.S. minister to France at the time, and later supported the Jacobin faction during the French Revolution.
Weren't most of the founding fathers free masons/deist escaping religious persecution in Europe?
You're thinking of the Puritans who fled the Anglican Church of England. They certainly were not exactly friendly towards Jews.
But by the time of founding fathers there was a more hospital atmosphere towards Jews in America.
Despite the myths of secularists most of the Founding Fathers were religious, and opposed an established Church that existed in England because they saw it was a corrupting political influence on religion.
But The Pilgrims were Righteous Gentiles who wanted to purify their religion of Pre-Christian pagan influences and therefore celebrated Thanksgiving based on the Biblical Jewish holiday of Sukkot rather than Christmas which came from Pre-Christian pagan Sun worship. They banned Christmas in America.
True after all they were "The Puritans" but my main problem with them is that they saw themselves as the successors of the Jews, which smacks of replacement theology
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/Jews_Connecticut.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/Jews_Connecticut.html)
The Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620 and the Puritans who founded Boston in 1630 saw themselves as authentic successors to the ancient Hebrews. New England was to be their New Jerusalem, a society based on the covenant between G-d and Abraham. Just as Moses had led the Jews out of Egypt, through the wilderness and into the promised land of Canaan, John Winthrop had led the Puritans out of a corrupt church in England to the wilderness of New England, where a pure church and polity could be re-established. By their own account, biblical Jews inspired the Puritans’ vision and aspirations.....
Yet, New England’s Puritans were less than hospitable to Jews they actually found among them. The Connecticut colony they founded offers a clear example of the contradiction between their high regard for biblical Jews and their reluctance to have real-life Jews as neighbors......
Connecticut colony’s 1662 royal charter declared that “the Christian faith is the only and principal end of this plantation.” .....
Jews were lumped “with heretics, Catholics [and others] to whom it was illegal to give food or lodging under the early legal codes of Hartford and New Haven.” The royal charter explicitly denied Jews the right to build synagogues, worship as an assembled group, purchase land for a cemetery, vote or hold public office. It is no surprise, then, that only a handful of Jews resided in Connecticut during the years of Puritan domination. The first reference to a Jew in Connecticut is to one “David the Jew,” who was arrested and fined by a Hartford court in 1659 for illegal peddling. A more telling case is that of Jacob Lucena, identified as “Jacob the Jew” in court records, who in 1670 was charged, in a manner reminiscent of 2Oth-century Southern lynch mobs, with the crime of being “notorious in his lascivious dalliance and wanton carriage and proffers to several women.”
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I've never heard of anyone getting pleasure in shaking a womens hand, I guess in this crazy world, anythings possible though.
If a man never touches women, obviously he will get turned on by touching a woman.
Even this one?
(http://www.funnyhub.com/pictures/img/scary-hillary-clinton.jpg)
:::D
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Like I said, I love Judaism.. I love Torah..I love the infinte wisdom of the Rabbis...But I despise it when a religious Jew tells any less religious Jew that everything he/she does is a sin and that they will DIE or NEVER come back in the world to come if they don't become religious like them...
No one said touching the opposite gender prevents you from going to The World To Come.
then the prospect of banning it is a mistake you are making...you touch a very sensitive point with me and other less religious Jews on this subject. You can't just ban things like that. To not touch someone of the opposite sex until you are married is a personal choice one decides to make..and an idealistic Jew who can do such a thing shoudl at least try it. For those who are religous who do it, they should only show and explain the beauty of not doing it and how great it is...the person who listens can decide for him/herself to practice it that way or not...But to ban this or ban that...bad move..bad wording...it's not right.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I don't think man get sexual enjoyment from hand shakes (with the possible exception of some weird fetishes), and if they do get sexual pleasure then they get it even more so from looking and hearing a woman, so men simply better behave themselves and if they can't their place is in the Zoo.
Moreover if you wouldn't shake the hand of attractive women I think you should avoid it altogether because otherwise you would be implicitly calling some woman unattractive and that might hurt them.
I would idealy be careful of shaking a married woman's hand out of respect of her husband...but that all depends on the culture of the community...I mean i will wait for a woman to offer her hand...or even the cheek for a hello..but if she doesn't a simple bow suffices..
With men too, unless they offer their hand, i give a little bow.
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Not only about thinking about sex, what about the impurity of Nidda? And by the way it would be much worse asking the girl if she's in nidda or not, in order to touch her hand. + Also it is a safe guard agains't doing even more things before marriage. It first starts with holding hands, then slowly that line of defense is broken, and they start kissing, then more and more, until you get a society that has pregnant 12 year old girls (and no not married like in the very old days where people married at 12 and 13), but pregnant and asking and needing support from parents and welfare, not knowing who the baby daddy is.
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Not only about thinking about sex, what about the impurity of Nidda? And by the way it would be much worse asking the girl if she's in nidda or not, in order to touch her hand. + Also it is a safe guard agains't doing even more things before marriage. It first starts with holding hands, then slowly that line of defense is broken, and they start kissing, then more and more, until you get a society that has pregnant 12 year old girls (and no not married like in the very old days where people married at 12 and 13), but pregnant and asking and needing support from parents and welfare, not knowing who the baby daddy is.
Sometimes yes...but all the time definately not.
Certainly I agree with you Tzvi on these Jewish concepts...and i respect those who practice shomer negia..i do believe it is a beautiful thing...but it is very very difficult for someone like me to practice this ritual..my love to all who do it well.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
I never noticed before.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
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Baltimore gave a great post. Current society needs to stop sexualising every single thing it advertises! I've even seen mineral water being promoted as something sexual!
I would say that it shouldn't be put down as a law, to ban. It would just go to show how incapable and uncivilised people are, to not keep themselves to themselves whilst in public (i'm meaning excessive pre-marital touching not a hand shake or anything). It is an intentional thing....and a persons choice...whatever the right thing to do.
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I don't think it's a good idea to post questions like this. It's possible you're gonna turn off potential new members who might have other-wised, joined. They very well might think that wew're trying to shove religion, morals, or personal beliefs down their throats
Anyhow, there are benefits to keeping your nose clean, it can save a man a lifetime of misery. One stupid mistake has ruinned the life of many men, of every age!! Seen it first hand, ten times over.
Men-- keep your zippers up, and your nose at the grindstone.
Your friend,
The Shadow
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
No, a sexual experience is having sex, not for example shaking a womans hand. Thinking about sex isn't a sexual experience either.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
No, a sexual experience is having sex, not for example shaking a womans hand. Thinking about sex isn't a sexual experience either.
But if I shake a very attractive woman's hand, I will get a sexual feeling in my body. So therefore I refrain from doing so.
When you say banned do you mean in America or IN Israel?
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OK i was just curious thank you O0
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
No, a sexual experience is having sex, not for example shaking a womans hand. Thinking about sex isn't a sexual experience either.
But if I shake a very attractive woman's hand, I will get a sexual feeling in my body. So therefore I refrain from doing so.
Fair enough, I see what you mean now.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
No, a sexual experience is having sex, not for example shaking a womans hand. Thinking about sex isn't a sexual experience either.
But if I shake a very attractive woman's hand, I will get a sexual feeling in my body. So therefore I refrain from doing so.
What if you look at an attractive women and have sexual feelings as a result; would you ban looking at attractive women? This is likely the origin of the dress code amongst muslime women.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
No, a sexual experience is having sex, not for example shaking a womans hand. Thinking about sex isn't a sexual experience either.
But if I shake a very attractive woman's hand, I will get a sexual feeling in my body. So therefore I refrain from doing so.
Yacov, in todays world it is hard to walk in the streets of NYC espsecially in the summertime without seeing women provocatively dressed. It is your job to condition yourself not to be effected by it. Shaking a womans hand is not more problematic than looking at a scatily clad women as far as the temptation aspect you have brought up is concerned. Hand shaking is not a sexual thing. Many women have jobs and careers so hand shaking is common. It is not a sexual thing at all unless its carried out in a situation a person shouldn't be in to begin with.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
No, a sexual experience is having sex, not for example shaking a womans hand. Thinking about sex isn't a sexual experience either.
But if I shake a very attractive woman's hand, I will get a sexual feeling in my body. So therefore I refrain from doing so.
What if you look at an attractive women and have sexual feelings as a result; would you ban looking at attractive women? This is likely the origin of the dress code amongst muslime women.
According to Judaism, you're not supposed to gaze at a woman's beauty unless the intent is marriage and then you can even smile at her. So Judaism already banned it although I personally only refrain from touching. Men listening to women sing is also banned in Judaism but I don't obey by that either.
Yacov, the fact that you are very careful in this area is something that you should be commended for. It is a healthy way to live and it avoids many of the problems plaguing our culture today. I salute you for your morality.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
No, a sexual experience is having sex, not for example shaking a womans hand. Thinking about sex isn't a sexual experience either.
But if I shake a very attractive woman's hand, I will get a sexual feeling in my body. So therefore I refrain from doing so.
What if you look at an attractive women and have sexual feelings as a result; would you ban looking at attractive women? This is likely the origin of the dress code amongst muslime women.
According to Judaism, you're not supposed to gaze at a woman's beauty unless the intent is marriage and then you can even smile at her. So Judaism already banned it although I personally only refrain from touching. Men listening to women sing is also banned in Judaism but I don't obey by that either.
last i checked, Judaism didn't ban any of those things...Simply, certain rabbis urged fellow Jews to avoid these things..but to ban them? hahahaha...it's not Judaism..not the Torah that I understand...nor the Gd i know. Nor the compassion we are supposed to have for life...So, no, this isn't the Torah I know and loved and grew up with..But feel free from banning yourself from these things if it is going to lead you to sin.
So to clarify..there is no ban, but recommendations. I understand them and it makes sense...things like gazing at a very attractive woman is something that for me can be avoided out of respect for my wife...so i want you to understand that i appreciate these recommendations...but they definately aren't bans.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
therefore, if one kisses, then he might as well have actual intercourse...I think when the Rabbis discussed this, they knew better than to say that both were equal...it's not very rabbinical to me. Rather, the rabbis would say, Kissing can lead to sex and tehrefore it is recommended to avoid that kind of contact in order to prevent the actual sin. But Kissing...no it's not sex...otherwise well...we would all be sluts by now wouldn't we?
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Judaism actually allows sex without marriage, it is permissible for a man to have a Pilegesh, and it is permissible for a woman to be a man's pilegesh.
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Yacov, it will be pretty hard to find jewish girls that have no been immoral. Even many religious ones are involved in promiscuity. This is not only a male problem but a female one as well. In todays world, you are thinking about a perfect situation which doesnt happen often. I am sure you are right that it would be better if people were more moral.
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Judaism actually allows sex without marriage, it is permissible for a man to have a Pilegesh, and it is permissible for a woman to be a man's pilegesh.
But a modern day girlfriend is not a pilegesh.
It's true. However Jews that are in the process of teshuva, or just can't stop themselves and yet fear of sinful behaviour could implement the pilegesh solution which is better than a hasty marriage.
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Yacov, it will be pretty hard to find jewish girls that have no been immoral. Even many religious ones are involved in promiscuity. This is not only a male problem but a female one as well. In todays world, you are thinking about a perfect situation which doesnt happen often. I am sure you are right that it would be better if people were more moral.
I don't care what she did as long as she's a virgin. I've kissed girls on the cheek in the past too and I've hugged and slow danced with them so I'm not perfect either but now I refrain from that. But never did I have sex and I expect that from a wife too. I've never kissed a girl on the lips but I'm willing to marry a woman who has kissed a man on the lips in the past.
Yacov, I am pretty certain that by todays standards, you are pretty much perfect as your life has been very moral till now. As far as finding a girl like that, you will need to go to a chasidic home to find it. Most women cant be qualified as such past the age of 15. Even in the religious world, it will be hard to find what you are looking for. You may want to lower the standard as it is hard to find perfection.
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There are Modern Orthodox Machmir women that are also Shomrot Negiah. All I want in a woman is that she be religious, a virgin, attractive, no multiple piercings (One earring in each ear only.), and no tattoos. I prefer a woman with brown hair and blue or green eyes but it's not required but only extra. I'm not going to reject a woman because she has brown eyes. My girlfriend when I was 13 had blonde hair but now I don't want a blonde wife.
Yacov, you are setting your standards too high for any regular person. What you are asking for is basically perfection. Most girls that are attractive will not be virgins. I am being honest with you.
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There are Modern Orthodox Machmir women that are also Shomrot Negiah. All I want in a woman is that she be religious, a virgin, attractive, no multiple piercings (One earring in each ear only.), and no tattoos. I prefer a woman with brown hair and blue or green eyes but it's not required but only extra. I'm not going to reject a woman because she has brown eyes. My girlfriend when I was 13 had blonde hair but now I don't want a blonde wife.
Yacov, you are setting your standards too high for any regular person. What you are asking for is basically perfection. Most girls that are attractive will not be virgins. I am being honest with you.
Won't disagree with that.
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There are Modern Orthodox Machmir women that are also Shomrot Negiah. All I want in a woman is that she be religious, a virgin, attractive, no multiple piercings (One earring in each ear only.), and no tattoos. I prefer a woman with brown hair and blue or green eyes but it's not required but only extra. I'm not going to reject a woman because she has brown eyes. My girlfriend when I was 13 had blonde hair but now I don't want a blonde wife.
yaacov, i pray for you and wish you all the luck to find that perfect match...bless you!
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
If I recall, masturbation is also against Judaism. Some have said it's worse than murder.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
I guess if their like making out or passionate kissing, but if it's a simple kiss, I don't see how it could cause someone to make a mess of themselves. This is a very odd discussion.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
If I recall, masturbation is also against Judaism. Some have said it's worse than murder.
Meir, you are not correct there. It is a sin but Murdering another person is a capital crime according to judaism. You can repent for waisting seed but you cannot bring a human back.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
Yaacov..i know what you meant. the sexual feeling of a kiss might make a man want to masturbate afterwards..I get it...
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
If I recall, masturbation is also against Judaism. Some have said it's worse than murder.
If masturbation is worse than murder then I might as well kill a handful of people I don't like, Gd forbid...there is no Jewish theological logic to that. I'm not condoning masturbation by all means...however...it definately isn't worse than murder...and certainly it is a terrible terrible sin if a husband purposely withdraws when his wife wants to bear children.
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I got a question for you...
If the ''girl'' did something to you, but, you didn't do it back, did you technically commit a sin?
When I go to my hairdresser, she clips my hair very short, and then she shampoo my head to remove all the little cut hairs.
It's part of the procedure. I mean, I never touch her, but she touches me...
This whole hair washing thing feel frikkin good. It's not a sexual feeling per se, but, I enjoy it a lot.
I'm I commiting a sin?
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
Yaacov..i know what you meant. the sexual feeling of a kiss might make a man want to masturbate afterwards..I get it...
You still don't get it. You're a man. You should know how men's bodies work. I'm saying the kiss itself would cause the seed to spill during the kiss. Why masturbate when he is touching a woman's body? The feeling of touching a woman's body without wasting seed is more sexually satisfying than wasting seed by yourself without a woman.
When I was 13, I had a girlfriend in Israel and it was the greatest feeling in The World just to hug her and kiss her on the cheek. I also slow danced with a girl when I was 16. The only feelings that can surpass the feelings of hugging a woman are to French Kiss or to have sex, neither of which I have done, Baruch Hashem, but I can only imagine how turned on I would feel from kissing a woman on the lips. But all I can do is dream about the day I'll do it. Even if I was not against doing it before marriage, I also could only dream about it. It is not something realistic at this point in my life and it never has been. I thought I would get to do it with my French Internet girlfriend when I was 18 but she returned to her old boyfriend before we ever met and I only got to kiss her on the cheek and she kissed me on the cheek the one time I met her and after that she never wanted to see me again. But that kiss she gave me was the best kiss I ever received. The only other times were when I was 13 and 14 with the blonde Israeli in Israel and when I blackmailed a girl to kiss me in 8th Grade when I was 13. The first time I kissed the Israeli was in a pool and someone from the forum told me on the phone "You're bad.". I cherish the memories and find it amazing I was able to do so at such as young age only a few months after I started liking girls but at the same time I know it was wrong and I will never do it again.
That little tiny bit of seminal fluid that comes out...really...to be honest that stuff sometimes comes out when you wake up in the morning...so...i don't by it that when i kiss a girl a significant amount of sperm is lost by drippage...
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
Yaacov..i know what you meant. the sexual feeling of a kiss might make a man want to masturbate afterwards..I get it...
You still don't get it. You're a man. You should know how men's bodies work. I'm saying the kiss itself would cause the seed to spill during the kiss. Why masturbate when he is touching a woman's body? The feeling of touching a woman's body without wasting seed is more sexually satisfying than wasting seed by yourself without a woman.
When I was 13, I had a girlfriend in Israel and it was the greatest feeling in The World just to hug her and kiss her on the cheek. I also slow danced with a girl when I was 16. The only feelings that can surpass the feelings of hugging a woman are to French Kiss or to have sex, neither of which I have done, Baruch Hashem, but I can only imagine how turned on I would feel from kissing a woman on the lips. But all I can do is dream about the day I'll do it. Even if I was not against doing it before marriage, I also could only dream about it. It is not something realistic at this point in my life and it never has been. I thought I would get to do it with my French Internet girlfriend when I was 18 but she returned to her old boyfriend before we ever met and I only got to kiss her on the cheek and she kissed me on the cheek the one time I met her and after that she never wanted to see me again. But that kiss she gave me was the best kiss I ever received. The only other times were when I was 13 and 14 with the blonde Israeli in Israel and when I blackmailed a girl to kiss me in 8th Grade when I was 13. The first time I kissed the Israeli was in a pool and someone from the forum told me on the phone "You're bad.". I cherish the memories and find it amazing I was able to do so at such as young age only a few months after I started liking girls but at the same time I know it was wrong and I will never do it again.
That little tiny bit of seminal fluid that comes out...really...to be honest that stuff sometimes comes out when you wake up in the morning...so...i don't by it that when i kiss a girl a significant amount of sperm is lost by drippage...
This is one steamy thread !
I can't believe what I'm reading here! ::) :) :D
hihihi...
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
Yaacov..i know what you meant. the sexual feeling of a kiss might make a man want to masturbate afterwards..I get it...
You still don't get it. You're a man. You should know how men's bodies work. I'm saying the kiss itself would cause the seed to spill during the kiss. Why masturbate when he is touching a woman's body? The feeling of touching a woman's body without wasting seed is more sexually satisfying than wasting seed by yourself without a woman.
When I was 13, I had a girlfriend in Israel and it was the greatest feeling in The World just to hug her and kiss her on the cheek. I also slow danced with a girl when I was 16. The only feelings that can surpass the feelings of hugging a woman are to French Kiss or to have sex, neither of which I have done, Baruch Hashem, but I can only imagine how turned on I would feel from kissing a woman on the lips. But all I can do is dream about the day I'll do it. Even if I was not against doing it before marriage, I also could only dream about it. It is not something realistic at this point in my life and it never has been. I thought I would get to do it with my French Internet girlfriend when I was 18 but she returned to her old boyfriend before we ever met and I only got to kiss her on the cheek and she kissed me on the cheek the one time I met her and after that she never wanted to see me again. But that kiss she gave me was the best kiss I ever received. The only other times were when I was 13 and 14 with the blonde Israeli in Israel and when I blackmailed a girl to kiss me in 8th Grade when I was 13. The first time I kissed the Israeli was in a pool and someone from the forum told me on the phone "You're bad.". I cherish the memories and find it amazing I was able to do so at such as young age only a few months after I started liking girls but at the same time I know it was wrong and I will never do it again.
That little tiny bit of seminal fluid that comes out...really...to be honest that stuff sometimes comes out when you wake up in the morning...so...i don't by it that when i kiss a girl a significant amount of sperm is lost by drippage...
Your referring to wet dreams? That is true.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
Yaacov..i know what you meant. the sexual feeling of a kiss might make a man want to masturbate afterwards..I get it...
You still don't get it. You're a man. You should know how men's bodies work. I'm saying the kiss itself would cause the seed to spill during the kiss. Why masturbate when he is touching a woman's body? The feeling of touching a woman's body without wasting seed is more sexually satisfying than wasting seed by yourself without a woman.
When I was 13, I had a girlfriend in Israel and it was the greatest feeling in The World just to hug her and kiss her on the cheek. I also slow danced with a girl when I was 16. The only feelings that can surpass the feelings of hugging a woman are to French Kiss or to have sex, neither of which I have done, Baruch Hashem, but I can only imagine how turned on I would feel from kissing a woman on the lips. But all I can do is dream about the day I'll do it. Even if I was not against doing it before marriage, I also could only dream about it. It is not something realistic at this point in my life and it never has been. I thought I would get to do it with my French Internet girlfriend when I was 18 but she returned to her old boyfriend before we ever met and I only got to kiss her on the cheek and she kissed me on the cheek the one time I met her and after that she never wanted to see me again. But that kiss she gave me was the best kiss I ever received. The only other times were when I was 13 and 14 with the blonde Israeli in Israel and when I blackmailed a girl to kiss me in 8th Grade when I was 13. The first time I kissed the Israeli was in a pool and someone from the forum told me on the phone "You're bad.". I cherish the memories and find it amazing I was able to do so at such as young age only a few months after I started liking girls but at the same time I know it was wrong and I will never do it again.
That little tiny bit of seminal fluid that comes out...really...to be honest that stuff sometimes comes out when you wake up in the morning...so...i don't by it that when i kiss a girl a significant amount of sperm is lost by drippage...
Right, that fluid is practically seedless and its biological role is not insemination, I don't think that one needs to pray amendment over this .
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Wet dreams are caused by impure thoughts. They are also said to be caused by being seduced by the demon Lilit at night although Chaim says this is allegorical.
Umm, what planet do we live on? Impure thoughts? Aren't we human that have hormones that spike when we go through puberty?
Also, if we didn't have these so called "impure thoughts" esepcially during that time period or in our adult life, we men would be called, ummm, a HOMO (that is in homosexual!!!)
yah... um...oh yeh, Gd forbid!
Drippage is drippage...sometimes over night as the bladder fills up, we tend to get erections...also known as "morning wood"...yeh..that's not always due to impure thoughts but becuase we have to pee really badly and subconciously hold the urge to pee while we are asleep.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
Yacov,
As a physician, I can add that medical theory dictates that seed [sperm] is constantly recycled within the male, whether it leaves his body or not. Old gametes are resorbed and new gametes produced. So, if it is not used for fertilization, it is destroyed or wasted, so to speak, inside the body or out. Hence sex without fertilization, or masturbation, in this sense, is logically no more a waste of seed than abstinence.
I am not trying to make a point for one sort of behavior or another just pointing out the apparent inconsistency of "wasting the seed" argument. If G-d commands a behavior then there need be no argument what an observant Jew need do, logic and medical theory aside. I am sure on what G-d commands regarding this according to Torah. Are there direct passages regarding this in Torah?
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
Yaacov..i know what you meant. the sexual feeling of a kiss might make a man want to masturbate afterwards..I get it...
You still don't get it. You're a man. You should know how men's bodies work. I'm saying the kiss itself would cause the seed to spill during the kiss. Why masturbate when he is touching a woman's body? The feeling of touching a woman's body without wasting seed is more sexually satisfying than wasting seed by yourself without a woman.
When I was 13, I had a girlfriend in Israel and it was the greatest feeling in The World just to hug her and kiss her on the cheek. I also slow danced with a girl when I was 16. The only feelings that can surpass the feelings of hugging a woman are to French Kiss or to have sex, neither of which I have done, Baruch Hashem, but I can only imagine how turned on I would feel from kissing a woman on the lips. But all I can do is dream about the day I'll do it. Even if I was not against doing it before marriage, I also could only dream about it. It is not something realistic at this point in my life and it never has been. I thought I would get to do it with my French Internet girlfriend when I was 18 but she returned to her old boyfriend before we ever met and I only got to kiss her on the cheek and she kissed me on the cheek the one time I met her and after that she never wanted to see me again. But that kiss she gave me was the best kiss I ever received. The only other times were when I was 13 and 14 with the blonde Israeli in Israel and when I blackmailed a girl to kiss me in 8th Grade when I was 13. The first time I kissed the Israeli was in a pool and someone from the forum told me on the phone "You're bad.". I cherish the memories and find it amazing I was able to do so at such as young age only a few months after I started liking girls but at the same time I know it was wrong and I will never do it again.
An immoral schvarza reading this would be laughing so much at this!
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Kahanist women hold all the cards, and they know it.
Kahanist men outnumber Kahanist women by about fifty to one, so the Kahanist women can choose and discard mates at will.
And let's face it, it's cool for a Kahanist men to be dating a Kahanist women.
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What is this, Iran?
Yes it should in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
I agree. G-d gave people free will. I have a ton of respect for those who choose to abstain before marriage, but that is a personal choice , and the intimacies taken between two consenting adults are their's alone and should not be the priority of the government.
Anyone who tells you there are ways to be rid off sexually impure thoughts is a charleton, we all have impure thoughts, but it is how we conduct ourselves and attempt not simply to let our desires and impulses dictate our lives.
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It's no fair to the woman if a man touches her because he gets sexual enjoyment from touching her. I will not shake an attractive woman's hand because I don't want to use her for enjoyment and because it is a sin to have such enjoyment from a woman other than my wife.
I didn't realize men thought of sex when they shook someone's hand.
What concerns me is that women would be the ones being disadvantaged professionally because much of the business world is male and much of the medical profession is male. So if you're a female businessperson or doctor and you can't shake hands with a colleague or examine someone of the opposite gender then you're going to be severely disadvantaged compared to your male counterparts.
Don't worry rubystars..I don't think of sex when a shake a woman's hand...However, if i"M holding my girlfriend's hand and we come across haredi or any yamulka wearing jew, we let go of each other out of respect.
I never said that men think of sex when shaking a woman's hand. I said they feel a sexually pleasureful feeling in their body. It is a body reaction, not a thought.
A rather broad generalization I think............
Perhaps for a guy who is never around women and barely dates that might be true.
Well Jewish men are not allowed to kiss women before marriage so any physical contact with a woman can be a sexual experience.
I have a problem with this theology. It makes no sense to me. If a Jewish man is technically not supposed to kiss a woman before marraige then what stops him from having sex which is really "eating from from the tree of knowledge"...and kissing simply means "touching that fruit."
The idea of not kissing a woman before marraige is a fence that is built around the Torah. To all those who can uphold that rule, my blessings to them...But certainly, kissing is not sex...
Kissing can be as pleasureful as sex. You can get the same feeling in your body without having intercourse. Kissing is mouth sex and therefore is wrong before marriage.
I don't think kissing is mouth sex as it doesn't constitute as a sexual organ. Scripture forbids wasting of the seed but I don't recall anything about kissing.
It's possible that kissing can lead to the wasting of seed due to the pleasureful feeling of the kissing and I have heard of such a case. I asked a rabbi on Ask Moses about that and he said if it is an issue in a marriage, then the husband should only kiss his wife while having intercourse.
Listen..i have a lot of respect for those who wish to wait till they get married before they kiss...And i agree 100% that kissing can lead to other unholy things. THerefore, i respect those who feel they are weak on this account and prefer to wait. However, this "fence" is not a commandment..it is a matter of choice for a Jew who feels he needs this safeguard from sinning. Not all will kiss and feel like wasthing his seed or going further to have sex. But some men are very weak and they should follow this prohibition if it is important to them to not have sex before marraige or simply masturbate.
Masturbation is worse than pre-marital kissing. It always wastes seed while pre-marital kissing doesn't always waste seed. When I said kissing can waste seed, I meant that it comes out by itself while kissing because of the sexual feeling involved with the kiss. I didn't mean that there was any below the waste contact between the two. Someone told me that this happened to him the first and only time time he kissed a woman.
Yacov,
As a physician, I can add that medical theory dictates that seed [sperm] is constantly recycled within the male, whether it leaves his body or not. Old gametes are resorbed and new gametes produced. So, if it is not used for fertilization, it is destroyed or wasted, so to speak, inside the body or out. Hence sex without fertilization, or masturbation, in this sense, is logically no more a waste of seed than abstinence.
I am not trying to make a point for one sort of behavior or another just pointing out the apparent inconsistency of "wasting the seed" argument. If G-d commands a behavior then there need be no argument what an observant Jew need do, logic and medical theory aside. I am sure on what G-d commands regarding this according to Torah. Are there direct passages regarding this in Torah?
My understanding is that it is the Sins of Or(?) and Onen. They were both married to their wives. And their wives wanted children. However, they literally would tease them in the sense they would have sex, but withdraw...and waste the seed to make kids that their wives wanted...in other words, they only had sex with their wives without fulfilling them with children.
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Wow, this has really turned into some thread. I think it is very admirable for a person to be as moral as Yacov. It really is something respectable. I just think that most men with healthy testosterone levels cannot be as strict as you are advocating in regards to the topic at hand. Yacov, your self control is quite rare.
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Yacov, I read in a fitness magazine that working out, especially doing a compound movement such as squats, has testosterone boosting effects. Do you workout? Maybe its better if you dont as this may make it harder for you to maintain your purity.
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Wow, this has really turned into some thread. I think it is very admirable for a person to be as moral as Yacov. It really is something respectable. I just think that most men with healthy testosterone levels cannot be as strict as you are advocating in regards to the topic at hand. Yacov, your self control is quite rare.
Even if I didn't have self-control, who would I sin with by kissing before marriage? I can't just find an attractive woman and tell her I want to kiss her. That's sexual harassment. And doing it by force is sexual assault. I have no one to kiss even if I wanted to and whenever I tried to find someone, they always rejected me. I never really become friendly with women other than on The Internet and the one time I had an Internet g/f, they was just playing with me and went back to her old b/f after he forgave her for kissing another man. I was sad and depressed until finally meeting her later on and she let me kiss her and she kissed me on the cheek but I have never kissed anyone on the lips and she was the last girl I kissed at all. That was on the day The Oslo War started when the fat pig Ariel Sharon went to The Temple Mount. I heard the news of the beginning of the riots at my grandmother's house near Haifa and then I left for Jerusalem to meet her that evening. I came back the same night. The first time I tried to meet her she didn't arrive because she thought I wasn't coming. Luckily next time I had her cell phone. After that she didn't want to see me again after I messaged her on Yahoo Messenger. She said I mean nothing to her, not even as a friend. I cried but then I got over her. But if I hadn't met her I would have never gotten over her. I was in distress until I met her. She was just using me on The Internet. She wasn't being serious but I was. Every once and a while I still have dreams about her.
Yacov, the situation you are in sounds kind of rough. I really feel bad about it. Firstly, you should never of cried over that girl. Their are many problems that arise in the course of people lives and its not helpful to become that attached to someone you barely knew. I have a few suggestions. Maybe sign up to the gym and get yourself into really good shape. Maybe it will be easier for you to find someone that way. Do some reading on bodybuilding nutrition online, start eating clean while working out properly and you will get into great shape. I am being totally serious about this. Also, it might be easier for you to find a jewish girl if you move to Israel. Did this ever cross your mind?
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Wow, this has really turned into some thread. I think it is very admirable for a person to be as moral as Yacov. It really is something respectable. I just think that most men with healthy testosterone levels cannot be as strict as you are advocating in regards to the topic at hand. Yacov, your self control is quite rare.
Even if I didn't have self-control, who would I sin with by kissing before marriage? I can't just find an attractive woman and tell her I want to kiss her. That's sexual harassment. And doing it by force is sexual assault. I have no one to kiss even if I wanted to and whenever I tried to find someone, they always rejected me. I never really become friendly with women other than on The Internet and the one time I had an Internet g/f, they was just playing with me and went back to her old b/f after he forgave her for kissing another man. I was sad and depressed until finally meeting her later on and she let me kiss her and she kissed me on the cheek but I have never kissed anyone on the lips and she was the last girl I kissed at all. That was on the day The Oslo War started when the fat pig Ariel Sharon went to The Temple Mount. I heard the news of the beginning of the riots at my grandmother's house near Haifa and then I left for Jerusalem to meet her that evening. I came back the same night. The first time I tried to meet her she didn't arrive because she thought I wasn't coming. Luckily next time I had her cell phone. After that she didn't want to see me again after I messaged her on Yahoo Messenger. She said I mean nothing to her, not even as a friend. I cried but then I got over her. But if I hadn't met her I would have never gotten over her. I was in distress until I met her. She was just using me on The Internet. She wasn't being serious but I was. Every once and a while I still have dreams about her.
Yacov, the situation you are in sounds kind of rough. I really feel bad about it. Firstly, you should never of cried over that girl. Their are many problems that arise in the course of people lives and its not helpful to become that attached to someone you barely knew. I have a few suggestions. Maybe sign up to the gym and get yourself into really good shape. Maybe it will be easier for you to find someone that way. Do some reading on bodybuilding nutrition online, start eating clean while working out properly and you will get into great shape. I am being totally serious about this. Also, it might be easier for you to find a jewish girl if you move to Israel. Did this ever cross your mind?
I used to live in Israel and the times I kissed a girl on the cheek were all there.
I am not into working out and have no in interest in doing so. Any girl who cares about men being strong and tough is not for me. I only want a religious girl who doesn't want to kiss before marriage and has never had sex. I don't care if she kissed men in the past, as long as she won't kiss me before the wedding.
Yacov, even Chaim works out. He said so in the past. You should go to the gym for your own health and well being. As I said before, it will certainly be easier for you to alleviate these problems in Israel. Maybe its time for you to move there?
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Before people keep on dogging on Yacov's posts I have a few things to say....
1) This is for Jews. No one is saying for it to be banned for Gentiles.So if you're a Gentile don't worry about it.
<snip>
NO WHERE does Yacov mention how it should become a law in Israel etc. Again it's just an opinion poll!
Please excuse my tone.
This is my final word on the matter. Again I apologize. In case anyone is upset about my response,I am sorry but I will not discuss it here further. Anyone feel free to contact an Admin or someone about it.
I just had to get it off my chest.
It looks like he is really asking if it should be banned in israeli law.
Either that or he is asking a Halachic question, to a group of largely gentile people, and some jews, almost none of which are expert in Halacha. And if you are so sure that it is halachically forbidden, and if you're right, then it isn't even a halachic question anyway.
Rabbi Kahane said that the jewish people is sick.. and must be healed gradually, and therefore he is not going to be enforcing all halacha is law. He would only enforce what the people would accept, because he would not want a civil war.
He would enforce straight away, the halachic law that a Jew cannot marry a non-jew. That is vital for the preservation of jews. But not much more than that.
Rabbi Kahane said there is no basis in Torah for democracy. And he would not allow everybody such as arabs, to vote. But, he would accept democracy for jews, so as to avoid a civil war. So similarly, if things happen that have no basis in Torah, he would not have banned them (except perhaps for some theoretical case where we are on a really high spiritual level and accept if naturally!!).
There are already religious jewish societies, that culturally have "banned" any touching between M and F.. shaking hands e.t.c. Not law though, and it works. I think it's stupid to enforce all these things as law.. Also, remember..
In the Torah, some -big- sins, like breaking shabbat(with witnesses, so somewhat publically), were punished. And having sex with or marrying a non-jewish woman, were punished. And gay sex was punished. But I don't think everything was punished.. Somebody doesn't wave the lulav and etrog on sukkot , doesn't get punished in the torah.
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Yacov, I read in a fitness magazine that working out, especially doing a compound movement such as squats, has testosterone boosting effects. Do you workout? Maybe its better if you dont as this may make it harder for you to maintain your purity.
yes, I noticed that!
Thing is though.. Say you're 24, and it makes you feel 19. And you managed at 19, so in theory you can still manage at 24.
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Actually my banning polls are for fun and meant to provoke discussion on the topic. I posted this same poll on Yekutiel's forum and it led to a Halachic discussion on the rules of modesty.
Yehudit understands my intentions with the banning polls.
Aside from halachic discussion(a cerebral thing), how can it be fun?
Let's ban this, let's ban that. It's not Fun.
To lighten up the topic..
It reminds me of that guy from the comedy red drawf who gains this cynical pleasure from enforcing really obscure rules.. Except aboard their space ship, was an android who would correct him all the time.. Drove him nuts
android: "Err Sir, Did you say Law 678 Section 14 subsection C? No parking in the lounge?!! "
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Actually my banning polls are for fun and meant to provoke discussion on the topic. I posted this same poll on Yekutiel's forum and it led to a Halachic discussion on the rules of modesty.
Yehudit understands my intentions with the banning polls.
Aside from halachic discussion(a cerebral thing), how can it be fun?
Sounds like that guy from the comedy red drawf who gains this cynical pleasure from enforcing really obscure rules.. Except aboard their space ship, was an android who would correct him all the time.. Drove him nuts
android: "Err Sir, Did you say Law 678 Section 14 subsection C? No parking in the lounge?!! "
I like to talk about dating subjects. I can't touch women but I like to talk about dating though.
That could be useful, even fun
but it's a world away from suggesting that a conversation revolving around Let's ban this, let's ban that, is fun. It is not fun. As as evident.
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Wow, this has really turned into some thread. I think it is very admirable for a person to be as moral as Yacov. It really is something respectable. I just think that most men with healthy testosterone levels cannot be as strict as you are advocating in regards to the topic at hand. Yacov, your self control is quite rare.
Even if I didn't have self-control, who would I sin with by kissing before marriage? I can't just find an attractive woman and tell her I want to kiss her. That's sexual harassment. And doing it by force is sexual assault. I have no one to kiss even if I wanted to and whenever I tried to find someone, they always rejected me. I never really become friendly with women other than on The Internet and the one time I had an Internet g/f, they was just playing with me and went back to her old b/f after he forgave her for kissing another man. I was sad and depressed until finally meeting her later on and she let me kiss her and she kissed me on the cheek but I have never kissed anyone on the lips and she was the last girl I kissed at all. That was on the day The Oslo War started when the fat pig Ariel Sharon went to The Temple Mount. I heard the news of the beginning of the riots at my grandmother's house near Haifa and then I left for Jerusalem to meet her that evening. I came back the same night. The first time I tried to meet her she didn't arrive because she thought I wasn't coming. Luckily next time I had her cell phone. After that she didn't want to see me again after I messaged her on Yahoo Messenger. She said I mean nothing to her, not even as a friend. I cried but then I got over her. But if I hadn't met her I would have never gotten over her. I was in distress until I met her. She was just using me on The Internet. She wasn't being serious but I was. Every once and a while I still have dreams about her.
ummm, no of course you don't just go up to girl and tell her that you want to kiss her..even the more immoral people don't do that...like a normal human being you go on dates and get to know the girl and vice versa...
The one issue with being obsessed wtih kissing is that you become blind to a girl's beauty...so one choice is to get it out of the system or simply stop obssessing and dating..even if it means 20 girls for one date.
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Actually my banning polls are for fun and meant to provoke discussion on the topic. I posted this same poll on Yekutiel's forum and it led to a Halachic discussion on the rules of modesty.
Yehudit understands my intentions with the banning polls.
Aside from halachic discussion(a cerebral thing), how can it be fun?
Sounds like that guy from the comedy red drawf who gains this cynical pleasure from enforcing really obscure rules.. Except aboard their space ship, was an android who would correct him all the time.. Drove him nuts
android: "Err Sir, Did you say Law 678 Section 14 subsection C? No parking in the lounge?!! "
I like to talk about dating subjects. I can't touch women but I like to talk about dating though.
instead of talking about dating you should go and date and see what works for you... aren't you 26?
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Yes, I am 26 but I don't know any women to date. The only women my age I talk to are women on JTF.
it helps to be friendly in real life with people have done it.. and most people have. Most people I am friendly with - not many - but those that I am friendly with! Have been through that already. In the modern orthodox world, there is some touching.
From what I understand...
You're not supposed to ask(otherwise it sounds like she's doing you a big favour).. And after a few dates, she is probably expecting some kind of touch anyway..
I know a guy that is a genius - at everything. And he does like to test the waters, he rarely messes up anything. And is very strategic/logical in everything he says and does. He did something minor(a small move), the girl didn't say no.. , so he took that as an OK. He actually then went a bit further. He judged whether the girl was comfortable. And he expressed complete confidence. If he was nervous it would have made the girl nervous.
I guess to some it sounds a bit manipulative.. a bit of a game. But really it's not wrong.. You have to test the waters, but without stepping over the line. If you don't test the waters, you won't move. So he knew that after a few dates, a touch is not crossing the line.. So he had no fear of doing that. You don't ask. The girl doesn't want somebody more timid than her. That's one of the reasons why girls want a partner!
I had a friend that spent a few weeks around a group of many girls - immature ones, to study them.. He came back from his adventure, with a report that they want a trophy, they want somebody to be proud of.. they want to feel protected. It's part of their femininity.
Obviously, in the more mature girls will want other things too, like money so you can live together ok. And in the really religious world, they will want somebody who is somewhat scholarly.. and observant. And these other things can factor in as more important than the whole trophy thing. But you don't want to violate those rules of the simple girl... i.e. you don't want to act like a nervous wimp.
You really need to talk to people in real life, that have done these things. People you know well.. People that are logical, and you trust, somebody who gives good advice. And express all your concerns.. At worst, an uncle, maybe! But preferably a friend of the same age, who is where you plan on being. In real life.. 'cos this is all about a real-life situation that you have a problem with.
I've seen a guy go up to a girl in the street and straighten her blouse!!! I am not suggesting anybody do that. But he managed it, and she was laughing.. Just because he was confident, and had a gentle voice and looked like a lighter version of "The Rock". But the point is, that imagine if he had been nervous, or most guys had done that, she would have screamed. A normal person could not have done it.. But the extreme example shows.. If he had been nervous, it wouldn't have worked.. That's an extreme example demonstrating the principle, regarding nervousness and confidence.
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Actually my banning polls are for fun and meant to provoke discussion on the topic. I posted this same poll on Yekutiel's forum and it led to a Halachic discussion on the rules of modesty.
Yehudit understands my intentions with the banning polls.
Aside from halachic discussion(a cerebral thing), how can it be fun?
Sounds like that guy from the comedy red drawf who gains this cynical pleasure from enforcing really obscure rules.. Except aboard their space ship, was an android who would correct him all the time.. Drove him nuts
android: "Err Sir, Did you say Law 678 Section 14 subsection C? No parking in the lounge?!! "
I like to talk about dating subjects. I can't touch women but I like to talk about dating though.
instead of talking about dating you should go and date and see what works for you... aren't you 26?
Yes, I am 26 but I don't know any women to date. The only women my age I talk to are women on JTF.
don't limit yourself with girls your age..or limit yourself even by looks. I'm sure there is a local orthodox rabbi that can help set you up.
I don't think it is healthy to simply yearn about the past "relationships." You need to seriously date girls till you find the one that fits your needs and vice versa.
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I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.
Just give her a little hug...
It provide a very good feeling, and it's nothing of a sexual nature.
I love hugs :D
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I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.
Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.
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I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.
Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.
Most non-religious women are not virgins and I wouldn't get along with non-religious women either. Most non-religious women would not go to the mikveh after month after their period and would not share my values and beliefs.
Oh I see. Well from what I can tell now, you are very religious so it does make sense for you to get a woman who is at the same religious level you are. I was just thinking that if you met someone who wasn't religious, maybe you could make them religious so its not something you should rule out.
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if you are not in a charedi community, then I think that only a rabbi or shadchan(matchmaker) could find even possibly find you a potential one..
the kind of girl you would want would be of the kind that would go to a rabbi for a match. Because if they went to a website they would be concerned about being touched. They would trust a rabbi and tell him their religious issue..
you could have it agreed even before you meet her, that would make things easier. Because you would each have told the R your situation/requirements
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It provide a very good feeling, and it's nothing of a sexual nature.
You're wrong. It is very sexual. The feeling I would get is sexual.
I love hugs :D
So do I but I have to control myself.
Are you planning on making Aliyah anytime soon in order to meet/live with you future wife?
('cause...that special girl you are looking for might be hard to find in the U.S.A...)
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But Yackov, if you yourself aren't completely religious yet, why do you expect a very religious girl to be interested. Most will get nervous if they know you dont keep shabbos totally. I feel I have to point this out. I also think you are narrowing down the list of qualified females to drastically.
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I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.
Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.
Most non-religious women are not virgins and I wouldn't get along with non-religious women either. Most non-religious women would not go to the mikveh after month after their period and would not share my values and beliefs.
Just because many girls do not wear skirts or go to Yeshiva does not mean their all hedonists or libertines Yacov. Many young women from my community waited until they were married to have sex (can't say the same for the guys though). While many don't follow the rules of modest dress, some occasionally wear pants or opt to cover their hair with scarves or hats, but there are many who see mikveh as the most essential essence of maintaining family purity. I intend to observe mikveh when I get married, but wigs and super-long skirts are not in the cards for me.
Don't judge people over petty things. People can sometimes surprise you.
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I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.
Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.
Most non-religious women are not virgins and I wouldn't get along with non-religious women either. Most non-religious women would not go to the mikveh after month after their period and would not share my values and beliefs.
Just because many girls do not wear skirts or go to Yeshiva does not mean their all hedonists or libertines Yacov. Many young women from my community waited until they were married to have sex (can't say the same for the guys though). While many don't follow the rules of modest dress, some occasionally wear pants or opt to cover their hair with scarves or hats, but there are many who see mikveh as the most essential essence of maintaining family purity. I intend to observe mikveh when I get married, but wigs and super-long skirts are not in the cards for me.
Don't judge people over petty things. People can sometimes surprise you.
I agree and this is sort of what I was trying to say. Sometimes when a person is too picky about what is acceptable to them, they can end up with nothing.
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But Yackov, if you yourself aren't completely religious yet, why do you expect a very religious girl to be interested. Most will get nervous if they know you dont keep shabbos totally. I feel I have to point this out. I also think you are narrowing down the list of qualified females to drastically.
I don't think that would make them nervous.. A religious girl would be only too happy that he is trying to increase his observance.. Yaakov seems to be letting them know early.. even before they meet. It is fine. They would respect that.
Financial thing is a problem.. Yaakov.. why not wait till you get a job? or get a job..
But as one working charedi once said to me.. (probably lecturing himself out loud).
HaShem says, Sheshet Yamim Taavod - 6 days you shall work. It's what G-d wants.
If you both work, that should be sufficient income..
I know, the financial thing is an issue.. moreso in the jewish world than in the gentile world. Because of kosher food(kosher meet is expensive), and getting a property that is within walking distance of a shul..
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But Yackov, if you yourself aren't completely religious yet, why do you expect a very religious girl to be interested. Most will get nervous if they know you dont keep shabbos totally. I feel I have to point this out. I also think you are narrowing down the list of qualified females to drastically.
She doesn't have to be "very" religious. She can be Modern Orthodox Liberal (A term Frumster uses.) and still be a virgin and be okay for me. I call myself Modern Orthodox Liberal too. The other kind of Modern Orthodox is Machmir. I'm very strict on hugging, kissing, and sex, but I will still listen to female singers and if I see an attractive woman, I will still look at her. I also am not opposed to watching TV or other modern things.
This is a tricky one!
My view is if wearing a kippa, then I would almost certainly not look.. Because I would think it is a chillul hashem..
But if I was wearing a hat, then I wouldn't be quite as strict with where my eyes go.. But I tend to keep them lowered. In normal walking - Head up usually .. Fedor keeps his head up and (respectfully keeps his ) eyes down in the stare down against his opponent! I think the RAMBAN(with a Nun) writes in a letter that one should walk like that.
There was one instance where the woman with the most unbelievable legs anybody has ever seen, she was wearing a short skirt and no tights and was walking down quite a religious jewish road. The friend I was with, started slurring his speech, and said(afterwards) He has -NEVER- seen anything like that before in his life. And BTW, He is not jewish and doesn't live a sheltered life.
The whole street stood still watching, including a guy with a beard. Standing still, staring behind him in amazement with his mouth hanging open - not drooling, but open in suprise/disbelief..
It was an uncontrollable stillness, like a UFO had landed..
It happened once or twice in school, a stunning girl would appear, and because we were all 17, she could stun people into slurry silence. And we'd stare into space even after she had gone, until somebody would wake up and wake up his colleagues, out of the daze.
But for that to happen on a busy public street, to guys in their 20s, 30s 40s. I have never seen anything like that before or since..
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But Yacov, lets say you meet a nice jewish girl, and you get to know her and like her, will the fact that she is not a virgin make you turn her away even after getting to know her.
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But Yacov, lets say you meet a nice jewish girl, and you get to know her and like her, will the fact that she is not a virgin make you turn her away even after getting to know her.
Yes. Every Jewish man who is a virgin deserves to marry and sleep with a virgin on his wedding night. I have stayed a virgin and I expect the same of a woman.
Yacov, in a religious environment, you wont really feel comfortable asking the woman if she is a virgin until you have become friendly wih her. Its not like you can meet her and right away ask if she has slept with someone. This is going to prove challenging as you will end up liking someone and only then will you ask if she is a virgin. At that point will you turn someone away? On the other hand, if you ask the girl if she is a virgin right away, she will get turned off and wont want to pursue the rlationship. This is a tricky situation.
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But Yackov, if you yourself aren't completely religious yet, why do you expect a very religious girl to be interested. Most will get nervous if they know you dont keep shabbos totally. I feel I have to point this out. I also think you are narrowing down the list of qualified females to drastically.
She doesn't have to be "very" religious. She can be Modern Orthodox Liberal (A term Frumster uses.) and still be a virgin and be okay for me. I call myself Modern Orthodox Liberal too. The other kind of Modern Orthodox is Machmir. I'm very strict on hugging, kissing, and sex, but I will still listen to female singers and if I see an attractive woman, I will still look at her. I also am not opposed to watching TV or other modern things.
This is a tricky one!
My view is if wearing a kippa, then I would almost certainly not look.. Because I would think it is a chillul hashem..
But if I was wearing a hat, then I wouldn't be quite as strict with where my eyes go.. But I tend to keep them lowered. In normal walking - Head up usually .. Fedor keeps his head up and (respectfully keeps his ) eyes down in the stare down against his opponent! I think the RAMBAN(with a Nun) writes in a letter that one should walk like that.
There was one instance where the woman with the most unbelievable legs anybody has ever seen, she was wearing a short skirt and no tights and was walking down quite a religious jewish road. The friend I was with, started slurring his speech, and said(afterwards) He has -NEVER- seen anything like that before in his life. And BTW, He is not jewish and doesn't live a sheltered life.
The whole street stood still watching, including a guy with a beard. Standing still, staring behind him in amazement with his mouth hanging open - not drooling, but open in suprise/disbelief..
It was an uncontrollable stillness, like a UFO had landed..
It happened once or twice in school, a stunning girl would appear, and because we were all 17, she could stun people into slurry silence. And we'd stare into space even after she had gone, until somebody would wake up and wake up his colleagues, out of the daze.
But for that to happen on a busy public street, to guys in their 20s, 30s 40s. I have never seen anything like that before or since..
I didn't always cover my head in public.
But what about synagogue where they know you are Jewish no matter what head covering you are wearing? I like to look at the girls after services. I just don't talk to them.
Well.. there is a difference between
a)being outdoors and looking silently in a sexual way.. A way that is easy with the anonymity of being a stranger in the street (to girls that might sound perverted, but most guys take advantage of it and look in that situation!)
That is probably quite sinful, and with a kippa on, would be a chillul hashem
b)And looking at them because you have to or want to talk to them. Which would happen in or near a shul!
I wouldn't normally let my mind wonder if I am in or near a shul.
It has happened, but even then, only when I was young, and tired and bored and closing my eyes. I wouldn't look at a girl sexually in or near a shul! They would know, and it's not anonymous. Nobody really stares at girls like that in a shul.. And if you did, it would be a very publc thing.. If you did it while in shul, then the whole ladys' gallery would be aware of it.. And even if outside the main building.. Girls are not alone in a shul, they are with friends.. If Your parents are there, and their friends too, it's even worse. It's just not the place at all.. People talk, but it's far from a place for sexual thoughts to prosper.. I would be afraid of such thoughts there! Especially if talking to a girl and within inches of her! sexual thoughts are not for such public situations. They are for private or if you want to be sinful! then for anonymous situations(like a reflex reaction of staring at a girl in the street when in that open free frame of mind!).
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But Yacov, how will you initially know whether or not she is a virgin. You cannot go over to a girl when you first meet her and ask her that. She will not appreciate being asked such a question and will immediately not be interested. I am curious to know how you will fright away find out if she is a virgin without the relationship ending before it begins.
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I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.
i respect that
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I'm against any dating that involves touching and I only want a religious woman.
Yacov, why do you want only a religious woman. Of course she must be jewish, but why only religious. It might be easier for you to broaden your options.
dwi there are plenty of religious women...i think it makes the most sense for yaacov to pursue shomer negia religious jewish women...or at least try it
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But Yacov, lets say you meet a nice jewish girl, and you get to know her and like her, will the fact that she is not a virgin make you turn her away even after getting to know her.
Yes. Every Jewish man who is a virgin deserves to marry and sleep with a virgin on his wedding night. I have stayed a virgin and I expect the same of a woman.
That is why I don't want to get close to women who are not virgins. Once I get attached to her, finding out she is not a virgin and having to dump her would be devastating.
i know some non religious virgins who prefer a man with experience for they feel its not good for the blind to lead the blind. just a thought
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Well it's easier for you guys to actually meet a girl, from a religious perspective, I am heavily limited. Not only do I live in a area where very few Jews actually reside, the small number (maybe 5-10) are all reform Jews. If that doesn't top it, their children certainly aren't virgins considering how much they party and what not. I'm 22 years old and finding a Jewish girl is not going to be easy. I've dated non Jews because that's my only option, but i'm still a virgin because I choose to stay that way, besides, there's way too many diseases and crap floating around and I know I would never forgive myself or another women if I got her pregnant and I wasn't married to her. Even with condoms, theres still risk of breakage although condoms would technically be forbidden wouldn't they since you are wasting the seed?
I don't think i've dated a Jew since most don't take interest to me and I don't take interest to most of the ones i've met. I guess we're completely different in political views, hobbies, and what not.
Sad to say, but the rednecks here have better morals than the reform Jews in this area.
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Well it's easier for you guys to actually meet a girl, from a religious perspective, I am heavily limited. Not only do I live in a area where very few Jews actually reside, the small number (maybe 5-10) are all reform Jews. If that doesn't top it, their children certainly aren't virgins considering how much they party and what not. I'm 22 years old and finding a Jewish girl is not going to be easy. I've dated non Jews because that's my only option, but i'm still a virgin because I choose to stay that way, besides, there's way too many diseases and crap floating around and I know I would never forgive myself or another women if I got her pregnant and I wasn't married to her. Even with condoms, theres still risk of breakage although condoms would technically be forbidden wouldn't they since you are wasting the seed?
I don't think i've dated a Jew since most don't take interest to me and I don't take interest to most of the ones i've met. I guess we're completely different in political views, hobbies, and what not.
Sad to say, but the rednecks here have better morals than the reform Jews in this area.
It might help to move to a jewish area...
Of couse, many jews have been to jewish primary school, or "high school" , or at university they've been at a jewish accomodation.
I think if you went to shul you'd find some kahanist types.. whether you have other things in common is another matter. I saw a guy in shul with a kahane tzedek kippa.
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Well it's easier for you guys to actually meet a girl, from a religious perspective, I am heavily limited. Not only do I live in a area where very few Jews actually reside, the small number (maybe 5-10) are all reform Jews. If that doesn't top it, their children certainly aren't virgins considering how much they party and what not. I'm 22 years old and finding a Jewish girl is not going to be easy. I've dated non Jews because that's my only option, but i'm still a virgin because I choose to stay that way, besides, there's way too many diseases and crap floating around and I know I would never forgive myself or another women if I got her pregnant and I wasn't married to her. Even with condoms, theres still risk of breakage although condoms would technically be forbidden wouldn't they since you are wasting the seed?
I don't think i've dated a Jew since most don't take interest to me and I don't take interest to most of the ones i've met. I guess we're completely different in political views, hobbies, and what not.
Sad to say, but the rednecks here have better morals than the reform Jews in this area.
It might help to move to a jewish area...
Of couse, many jews have been to jewish primary school, or "high school" , or at university they've been at a jewish accomodation.
I think if you went to shul you'd find some kahanist types.. whether you have other things in common is another matter. I saw a guy in shul with a kahane tzedek kippa.
I really don't want to move, most of the Jews tend to stick in the city and I want to avoid cities at any cost possible.
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But Yacov, lets say you meet a nice jewish girl, and you get to know her and like her, will the fact that she is not a virgin make you turn her away even after getting to know her.
Yes. Every Jewish man who is a virgin deserves to marry and sleep with a virgin on his wedding night. I have stayed a virgin and I expect the same of a woman.
That is why I don't want to get close to women who are not virgins. Once I get attached to her, finding out she is not a virgin and having to dump her would be devastating.
i know some non religious virgins who prefer a man with experience for they feel its not good for the blind to lead the blind. just a thought
Then those are self-hating women.
um, no they're not....
Some prefer the same innocence they have and others prefer a man with experience...the latter are not self hating women, yaacov..think before you speak!
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But Yacov, lets say you meet a nice jewish girl, and you get to know her and like her, will the fact that she is not a virgin make you turn her away even after getting to know her.
Yes. Every Jewish man who is a virgin deserves to marry and sleep with a virgin on his wedding night. I have stayed a virgin and I expect the same of a woman.
That is why I don't want to get close to women who are not virgins. Once I get attached to her, finding out she is not a virgin and having to dump her would be devastating.
i know some non religious virgins who prefer a man with experience for they feel its not good for the blind to lead the blind. just a thought
Then those are self-hating women.
um, no they're not....
Some prefer the same innocence they have and others prefer a man with experience...the latter are not self hating women, yaacov..think before you speak!
For Jews- A women who respects herself and keeps herself from sin, should not settle for a guy who sinned by sleeping around with other women, unless he did serious Tishuva (Real Tishuva, not only the loosly way it is said many times). Also vica versa, but I would think that even with that it would definitly be much harder for a guy to go for a girl who slepped with even 1 other guy.
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But Yacov, lets say you meet a nice jewish girl, and you get to know her and like her, will the fact that she is not a virgin make you turn her away even after getting to know her.
Yes. Every Jewish man who is a virgin deserves to marry and sleep with a virgin on his wedding night. I have stayed a virgin and I expect the same of a woman.
That is why I don't want to get close to women who are not virgins. Once I get attached to her, finding out she is not a virgin and having to dump her would be devastating.
i know some non religious virgins who prefer a man with experience for they feel its not good for the blind to lead the blind. just a thought
Then those are self-hating women.
um, no they're not....
Some prefer the same innocence they have and others prefer a man with experience...the latter are not self hating women, yaacov..think before you speak!
For Jews- A women who respects herself and keeps herself from sin, should not settle for a guy who sinned by sleeping around with other women, unless he did serious Tishuva (Real Tishuva, not only the loosly way it is said many times). Also vica versa, but I would think that even with that it would definitly be much harder for a guy to go for a girl who slepped with even 1 other guy.
Well said...
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well isnt it already banned by the torrah? or is it not? i mean if it is then isnt it banned already? but i dont think it should be, people can do whatever they want lol not my or ur place to tell them what to do
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Yes, it is banned by The Torah. Jews should not touch a member of the opposite sex unless it is their parent, sibling, son/daughter, or spouse.
It is not banned for Gentiles since it is not a violation of The Noahide Laws.
can you where in the torah it says this.
im sorry to say but it doesn't it just was another fence made by the rabbis to prevent immoral sexual behavior.
The whole concept of shomer negiah today is also misunderstood. Some people say "i will only shake a women's hand if it is for buisness and she puts her hand out"for me this is rather silly because even if you offer your hand is this considered sexual?
Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
For the vast majority of men it in fact does not. So i dont think we should go so crazy about pre marital touching.
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I wouldn't say it's "banned".
In the Torah it's a sin and I think it has an earthly punishment - capital punishment, just as breaking shabbat does. But capital punishment requires a temple and sanhedrin - (since I think the sanhedrin sits in the (courtyard of?) the temple)..
And witnesses, and a warning to the person, and that they agree.. So many conditions.. And a court that does more than one in x(70?) years is considered bloodthirsty.
If any gentiles in israel are noachides, then it is even more unlikely to happen.
It's a nice idea to make a basic law, like not marrying a gentile, into the law in israel. But I don't think there is a torah mandate to do so. Adding a moderate but reasonable punishment that can be applied, like prison. So as to deter people from sinning.
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
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And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Are you aroused when a girl makes eye contact and gives you a nice smile?
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Are you aroused when a girl makes eye contact and gives you a nice smile?
good post Archie. Im not saying it is not a holy thing for Yacov and other tzadikim to not touch girls , i am just saying that the Torah does not prohibit it. And therefore should not be banned
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.
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you would get more of a sexual feeling if you avoid it completely, and then your hand brushes a girl's hand by accident.
Even if man was to wear a blindfold and learn to navigate with sound waves, like a bat, he would still find a way to identify women, their proportions, and get a "sexual feeling". And that's without touching. You can't avoid it completely. You can try to minimise it, but if doing that, then it would require far deeper techniques than avoiding touching their hand. Hand touch is minor compared to what can go through the mind when you dream. Or for that matter, when you are awake and alone and have a "lapse". If you are aiming at minimising sexual feelings, then you should focus on that.
I knew a crazy guy that wanted to take te medication they give to pedophiles - to suppress his sex drive - so that he could concentrate on his work.
There may be something in jewish law about not touching anywheer e.g. her hand. But I can see why. It is to avoid sexual contact of that kind. It is unnecessary. Easily avoided.
It's not to avoid or minimise sexual feelings though.. that wouldn't make sense, as mentioned. If I was to guess at the logic. I would say that it's just to avoid one of the causes, because it's an obvious one.
I wouldn't shake hands with a woman in or near a shul.. 'cos it's probably against jewish law.. not the place to be flippant and go out of your way to sin.
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.
I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.
I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...
I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.
I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.
I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...
I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.
haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.
I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.
I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...
I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.
haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous
No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.
Not all men get pleasure from shaking a beautiful woman hand
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.
I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.
I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...
I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.
haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous
No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.
Yacov, I've never had sexual pleasure from shaking an attractive woman's hand... but all a man needs to do is look at an attractive woman and have sexual thoughts, from what I understand having a sexual thought is just as bad as the action. Must you not look at attractive women either?
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.
I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.
I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...
I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.
haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous
No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.
Yacov, I've never had sexual pleasure from shaking an attractive woman's hand... but all a man needs to do is look at an attractive woman and have sexual thoughts, from what I understand having a sexual thought is just as bad as the action. Must you not look at attractive women either?
You're not supposed to gaze at a woman's beauty, not even at her small finger. I personally just refrain from touching.
You cannot look at a Beautiful woman at all?
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.
I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.
I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...
I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.
haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous
No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.
Yacov, I've never had sexual pleasure from shaking an attractive woman's hand... but all a man needs to do is look at an attractive woman and have sexual thoughts, from what I understand having a sexual thought is just as bad as the action. Must you not look at attractive women either?
You're not supposed to gaze at a woman's beauty, not even at her small finger. I personally just refrain from touching.
that sucks for you
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Hey if there is a beautiful female on the other side of the room i am going to look
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Even if you have thought about the female it does not mean you will act on those feelings
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Hey if there is a beautiful female on the other side of the room i am going to look
I when i say am going to look i dont me Gawk at her I will notice her in the room
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Hey if there is a beautiful female on the other side of the room i am going to look
I when i say am going to look i dont me Gawk at her I will notice her in the room
So will I but I'm just saying what the strict Jewish Law is. I'm not perfect. I don't believe this law even applies to Gentiles. I think Judaism allows Gentiles to even kiss before marriage and some say they can have sex before marriage.
Some say that people can have sex before marriage but it has to be hard on any male when they are going through puberty not to think about females even in the Jewish religion
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Hey if there is a beautiful female on the other side of the room i am going to look
I when i say am going to look i dont me Gawk at her I will notice her in the room
So will I but I'm just saying what the strict Jewish Law is. I'm not perfect. I don't believe this law even applies to Gentiles. I think Judaism allows Gentiles to even kiss before marriage and some say they can have sex before marriage.
Some say that people can have sex before marriage but it has to be hard on any male when they are going through puberty not to think about females even in the Jewish religion
maybe it's possible if you don't know what one looks like(aside from face)
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And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
Shomer Negia is a beautiful thing...However, it is a fence by the wise rabbis to prevent sexual immorality.
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Is no kissing also a fence or just no touching?
The Torah rule is basically no pre marital sex...
No kissing is a fence also.
The truth is some men and women need a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fence and will simply not touch or gaze at someone of the opposite sex.
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Is no kissing also a fence or just no touching?
The Torah rule is basically no pre marital sex...
No kissing is a fence also.
The truth is some men and women need a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fence and will simply not touch or gaze at someone of the opposite sex.
where does the Torah ban pre marital sex
People here are saying the Torah bans so many things when in reality its the rabbis.
Im not saying it is a good thins but there is no quote banning pre marital sex. But the women most always go to the mikvah. And if a man sleeps with her during niddah he gets karet
People here have to start reviewing the torah
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Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.
Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't.
The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
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Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.
Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't.
The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
....and make a fence around the Torah and sanctify it.
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Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.
Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't.
The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
....and make a fence around the Torah and sanctify it.
that's a nice poetic touch, but it's not in this translation
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
2. Shimon the Righteous was one of the last survivors of the Great Assembly. He used to say: On three things the world is sustained: on the Torah, on the (Temple) service, and on deeds of loving kindness.
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Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.
Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't.
The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
....and make a fence around the Torah and sanctify it.
that's a nice poetic touch, but it's not in this translation
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
2. Shimon the Righteous was one of the last survivors of the Great Assembly. He used to say: On three things the world is sustained: on the Torah, on the (Temple) service, and on deeds of loving kindness.
hehe..maybe it was teh conservative translation...
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Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.
Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't.
The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
....and make a fence around the Torah and sanctify it.
that's a nice poetic touch, but it's not in this translation
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
2. Shimon the Righteous was one of the last survivors of the Great Assembly. He used to say: On three things the world is sustained: on the Torah, on the (Temple) service, and on deeds of loving kindness.
hehe..maybe it was teh conservative translation...
they might like their poetry but they don't sanctify the torah
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Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.
Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't.
The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
what are you talking about . why are you saying lashon harah about me that i dont like the rabbis decisions. im just saying theres no quote from the torah banning pre marital sex. what a good job to make some one feel bad after shavout.
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you may want to correct the quoting of your post.
Torah can mean talmud. Mishna. Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.
So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law. Looks a bit karaite.
And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places. If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.
I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe.
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Listen...there are some arguements for and against premarital sex.
Idealistically, everyone should be remain a virgin until they get married. Realistically, it's another story. Given the environment, society, and temptations, it's not that simple for a man to stay a virgin until he gets married. It's a little bit easier for a woman, I believe.
If a man chooses to willy nilly have premarital sex, it may affect them in a very negative way in the sense he might treat all women including his wife like a piece of meat and not be loyal to her. On a practical end, sometimes premarital sex for a man helps him "get it out of his system" so that he would be more true and faithful for his future wife.
I personally will not argue for either thing. All I will say is that men ought to treat women with full respect and not treat them like a piece of meat. Look for a wife and love her and have a family with her and look at no one else or desire anyone else.
My point is, a man should do whatever it takes for him to be able to be that way and love his wife. If it means that he has to get it out of his system before he settles down, as long as he doesn't forget his way, then it make sense to me. However, there is a danger when a man does that for healthy and mental reasons.
If a man is able to sustain a family at a young age and be able to have enough control to not be with other women once he is married, then he should do that.
An idealistic society would never encourage premarital sex, I would support movements and groups that do that for their environment.
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you may want to correct the quoting of your post.
Torah can mean talmud. Mishna. Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.
So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law. Looks a bit karaite.
And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places. If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.
I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe.
fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex
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you may want to correct the quoting of your post.
Torah can mean talmud. Mishna. Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.
So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law. Looks a bit karaite.
And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places. If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.
I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe.
fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex
I don't disagree with you.. I am not saying it is in the 5 books.
Infact, this controversial article, on a dodgy website, makes one or two interesting but slightly twisted arguments.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/forbidding-the.html
along the lines of, people had concubines and it says that they don't have to be jewish..
the article makes out that a concubine is just some woman.. i.e. a ticket for pre-marital and extra-marital sex. But it would be like a lower level of wife.. It's a permanent thing.. (not like the early islammic 1 hour marriage!)
prob less paper work ;-)
jews in some arab lands did tend to have many wives, prob not concubines though.
ashkenazim don't, since a rabbi banned it a few hundred years ago, since the society we live in detests and frowns upon such behaviour, and it is not a religious duty of any kind.
I think it's useful though, for multiplying!
I hadn't heard that they don't have to e jewish though..
ANYHOW
I can think of a very good reason why sex outside marriage is forbidden.
You are either putting your semen into the woman, or wasting it somewhere. Either way it's bad..
a)creating a child outside of wedlock..
deut 23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
so crtainly a bad thing
b)spilling semen is forbidden..
just looking this up now,
there is also, looking at deut ch 22
22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
note- 22:28 is not talking about rape. if he rapes her 22:25, he is killed.
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you may want to correct the quoting of your post.
Torah can mean talmud. Mishna. Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.
So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law. Looks a bit karaite.
And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places. If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.
I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe.
fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex
I don't disagree with you.. I am not saying it is in the 5 books.
Infact, this controversial article, on a dodgy website, makes one or two interesting but slightly twisted arguments.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/forbidding-the.html
along the lines of, people had concubines and it says that they don't have to be jewish..
the article makes out that a concubine is just some woman.. i.e. a ticket for pre-marital and extra-marital sex. But it would be like a lower level of wife.. It's a permanent thing.. (not like the early islammic 1 hour marriage!)
prob less paper work ;-)
jews in some arab lands did tend to have many wives, prob not concubines though.
ashkenazim don't, since a rabbi banned it a few hundred years ago, since the society we live in detests and frowns upon such behaviour, and it is not a religious duty of any kind.
I think it's useful though, for multiplying!
I hadn't heard that they don't have to e jewish though..
ANYHOW
I can think of a very good reason why sex outside marriage is forbidden.
You are either putting your semen into the woman, or wasting it somewhere. Either way it's bad..
a)creating a child outside of wedlock..
deut 23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
so crtainly a bad thing
b)spilling semen is forbidden..
just looking this up now,
there is also, looking at deut ch 22
22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
note- 22:28 is not talking about rape. if he rapes her 22:25, he is killed.
ok good post. But if you are born to two unmarried parents you are not considered a bastard or mamzer.
And having more than one wife is sometimes a mitzvah if the wife was married to your brother but he dies
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yep.. I was thinking at the time I paste that translation that the definition of mamzer had some issue.
indeed.. A mamzer is a specific form of bastard. There is no concept of bastard - at least in tenach..
a bastard is a child born out of wedlock. Or rather, of parents that have not been wed to each other.
a mamzer is a child born out of an adulterous act.. (at least one partner married, but not to the one they had sex with)..
so if neither are married.. i.e. pre marital sex. it's a bastard but not a mamzer..
right?
Regarding the tenach and pre matiral sex though.. That pasuk by telling "the pair" to get married, is implying they should have been married.
good to know there's nothing wrong with the child though!
Whereas I read somewhere that the label of mamzer lasts for something like 10 generations..
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A bastard is a mamzer which means the mother became pregnant as a result of having sex with someone other than her husband.
An illegitimate baby is lo choki (illegal) and means the mother was single when the baby was born.
The father has nothing to do with a baby being a mamzer or not. He can cheat on his wife with another woman and the baby won't be a mamzer/bastard as long as the woman is single. Such a baby will only be illegitimate.
Also, this only applies to Jews. A married Gentile woman who has sex with another man and gets pregnant won't give birth to a mamzer, only an illegitimate baby.
does bastard=illegitimate i.e. same thing ?
= born of parents not married to each other.
so mamzer is not the same as a bastard.
you are prob right with your definition of mamzer..
That it is a married woman committing adultary. (so not a man comitting adultary with a single woman)
you said bastard is a mamzer..
But this is not really correct..
a bastard is a more general thing. It more than just a mamzer.
It is not true that a bastard is a mamzer, because you can have a bastard that is not a mamzer.
A mamzer is a bastard, because a mamzer is a more specific thing. Though still potentially misleading to say a mamzer is a bastard.. 'cos they are not the same thing. Wrong to say as a rule that a bastard is a mamzer though.
my logic is probably correct, don't know about my definitions though!
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A bastard is a mamzer which means the mother became pregnant as a result of having sex with someone other than her husband.
An illegitimate baby is lo choki (illegal) and means the mother was single when the baby was born.
The father has nothing to do with a baby being a mamzer or not. He can cheat on his wife with another woman and the baby won't be a mamzer/bastard as long as the woman is single. Such a baby will only be illegitimate.
Also, this only applies to Jews. A married Gentile woman who has sex with another man and gets pregnant won't give birth to a mamzer, only an illegitimate baby.
does bastard=illegitimate i.e. same thing ?
= born of parents not married to each other.
so mamzer is not the same as a bastard.
you are prob right with your definition of mamzer..
That it is a married woman committing adultary. (so not a man comitting adultary with a single woman)
you said bastard is a mamzer..
But this is not really correct..
a bastard is a more general thing. It more than just a mamzer.
It is not true that a bastard is a mamzer, because you can have a bastard that is not a mamzer.
A mamzer is a bastard, because a mamzer is a more specific thing. Though still potentially misleading to say a mamzer is a bastard.. 'cos they are not the same thing. Wrong to say as a rule that a bastard is a mamzer though.
my logic is probably correct, don't know about my definitions though!
I thought that as well if you are born and your parents are not married you would be considered a bastard
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There is no redefinition of bastard.
Bastard is an english or american term.
Mamzer is the jewish/hebrew term. And bastard is a mistranslation.
Sometimes a word requires more than one word to translate it. Because there is no equivalent word.
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damn bastards! :::D
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damn bastards! :::D
Not all. Only the mamzerim are damned ;-)
Though I wouldn't curse them.. And it's not their fault!
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And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).
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And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).
Where does it say in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings of "fences" of the Rabbis when Rabbis never existed in those days?
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And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).
Not true my rabbi (who is orthodox) says you are aloud to touch girls as long as it does not make you aroused. For example a handshake( even if you intiate it)
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And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).
Not true my rabbi (who is orthodox) says you are aloud to touch girls as long as it does not make you aroused. For example a handshake( even if you intiate it)
http://dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1523&txtSearch=hand%20shaking
- Ill bring much more later BH.
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And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).
Not true my rabbi (who is orthodox) says you are aloud to touch girls as long as it does not make you aroused. For example a handshake( even if you intiate it)
how are you defining aroused?
There can be a sensation upon skin contact with a female... even hand to hand. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that a quick accidental brush of skin would cause anything to float.
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And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).
Where does it say in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings of "fences" of the Rabbis when Rabbis never existed in those days?
It says "you should follow them", it would be hard for me to bring you the exact quote, but ask a Rabbi, or ask around maybe someone has the reference for you. But stop always using the word "fences", many of these things always existed, but were written down much later, for different reasons.
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the term fence law is appropriate. There are lots.
there are also rabbinical mitzvot, but only 7 of them. (purim and chanukah are 2, washing hands for bread is another) http://www.askmoses.com/article/411,429/What-are-the-seven-rabbinic-mitzvot.html
most rabbis would point to
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
But you could then ask.. Where is fence really defined.. To be laws.. we have to obey. Where are they given permission to make such laws..
I am not sure..
There is of course the Sanhedrin,
and there is the authority of the beis din - jewish court.
The tenach says follow the judges that exist in your time. The talmud says it refers to the sanhedrin, and this is prob clear from the pshat too.. Rabbi binyamin kahane mentioned it.. that it refers to the sanhedrin. (other rabbis have at times pointed to this and looked at it as follow the sages, or follow the bet din or follow your local rabbi. But I don't think these interpretations have any evidence in tenach or gemara). The verse is
Deut 17:11 "Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left."
Fact is though, even those that maintain this refers to sanhedrin..
Will agree to the authority of rabbis to create fence laws, or new mitzvot.
It must be in gemara..
The RAMBAM bases his decisions in his code very close to the gemara , and he I think talks about following the bet din, in hilchot mamri.. Everybody that accepts the tradition accepts rabbinical authority.. so no question it's there. Otherwise there would be dissent..
If it's not written in gemara, then I would that it is a living tradition, from around the time of hillel and shammai -and before. Our tradition came down to us (again, see mishna avot / pirkei avot , 1:1 ) , down the generations, from G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA, to 5 pairs of rabbis ending with hillel and shammai. At each generation being taught to the people. And they lived it.
There are of course examples in gemara, which makes it clear enough that the gemara teaches it.
You could look at that as a practical explanation and implementation of pirkei avot 1:1 , a living of that tradition.. lived for generations -before- hillel and shammai.. And I have mentioned how the generations go back to Moshe.
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What is MOGA?
an abbreviation I invented for "men of the great assembly". If you check pirkei avot 1:1 and the position I wrote MOGA then that's clear. I have actually memorised the order..
G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA to 5 pairs ending in hillel and shammai. Very good thing to memorise, and easy to memorise... Alot easier than pi to goodness knows how many dp. So that's another way one might have known (by memory), I don't need to check pirkei avot 1:1 to see the list. Every jew should memorise that little list IMO, it's fundamental
And also relevant as evidence for the truth of our tradition..
Why make the case tha our tradition is good because we passed it on for thousands of years.
We can say that Hillel and Shammai existed.. we all agree on that, we have the gemara where their disputes are recorded. So the tradition existed then.
And from there, we can work our way back the genreations, to the origin of our tradition at sinai.
Hillel and Shammai would have known the pair of rabbis they learnt it from, and so on.. And the jewish nation was taught too.
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Alot easier than pi to goodness knows how many dp.
What's that?
kids in school memorise pi to many decimal places to show off..
3.14159265358979323.....
For years I thought I knew it far until somebody told me I had got it wrong.. for years I thought it was ....8979232 , when it was ...8979323 .
some kids had memorised it to 100dp..
in many schools.. it was a thing geeky/technical people did for fun.. during long school days.
Yet memorising a short list, like from G-d to joshua e.t.c. is easy by comparison.
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What is MOGA?
I have actually memorised the order..
G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA to 5 pairs ending in hillel and shammai. Very good thing to memorise, and easy to memorise...
Are you sure you memorised it well? Its Moshe recieved from G-d , and then to Yoshua .........
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What is MOGA?
I have actually memorised the order..
G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA to 5 pairs ending in hillel and shammai. Very good thing to memorise, and easy to memorise...
Are you sure you memorised it well? Its Moshe recieved from G-d , and then to Yoshua .........
err.. My typo..
I did have that originally! but changed --> to "to", and must have deleted it by accident.
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What is so significant by pi? Just because they made a Greek letter for it, it's so special? It seems rather Hellenistic to me.
to memorise it for the sake of it.. well, i'm not encouraging that..
pi is a special number, of course. That's why there's a button on a calculator whose function is to produce that number.
I suppose since many mathematical concepts come from greeks, would you say that memorising pythagorus's theorem is hellenistic. It does have a practical use. The RAMBAM would have known it from memory!
mostly when I hear criticism of hellenization, it's in terms of their nudity. Not mathematics.
not knowing much history, I must say I haven't used the term much.
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I heard that King Solomon Alav Hashalom (as written in the Talmud) already knew what PI was. (If I find it I will post it sometime BH)
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I heard that King Solomon Alav Hashalom (as written in the Talmud) already knew what PI was. (If I find it I will post it sometime BH)
Whatever that means. BTW, pi is an infinite number, but its function was prob known in king solomon's time anyway..
I have heard that king solomon knew the language of the animals.. So claims he knew pi (whatever is meant by that claim) are not be a big deal. Maybe it meant he could calculate it like a calculator.. or a super-computer!
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Excuse me for butting in here and in no way mean to be disrespectful. I can't speak for all forms of Christianity but as an Independant Baptist we are taught and teach that any type of sexual touching outside of marriage is a sin. At no time would I want the government to have the authority of enforcement. THAT scares me. That is what is going on in Iran and a lot of other ME countries.
I feel it is the duty of the parents and the religious leaders to teach thier children appropriately and with love and caring that outwieghs the negative influences that assaults them almost daily in our society.
I am not a touchy-feely kind of person. I work in the high-tech industry in a large city and quite often in business situations shake the hand of a woman. However, in a non-business situation, say at the beach and a young lady bounded up to me in a string bikini, I would never think of shaking her hand and would most likely be looking for an exit strategy.
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say at the beach and a young lady bounded up to me in a string bikini, I would never think of shaking her hand and would most likely be looking for an exit strategy.
;D Are you sure your biggest problem is that you are shaking hands with a lady (in regards to male-female issues)?
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Excuse me for butting in here and in no way mean to be disrespectful. I can't speak for all forms of Christianity but as an Independant Baptist we are taught and teach that any type of sexual touching outside of marriage is a sin. At no time would I want the government to have the authority of enforcement. THAT scares me. That is what is going on in Iran and a lot of other ME countries.
I feel it is the duty of the parents and the religious leaders to teach thier children appropriately and with love and caring that outwieghs the negative influences that assaults them almost daily in our society.
I am not a touchy-feely kind of person. I work in the high-tech industry in a large city and quite often in business situations shake the hand of a woman. However, in a non-business situation, say at the beach and a young lady bounded up to me in a string bikini, I would never think of shaking her hand and would most likely be looking for an exit strategy.
I agree with you.
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say at the beach and a young lady bounded up to me in a string bikini, I would never think of shaking her hand and would most likely be looking for an exit strategy.
;D Are you sure your biggest problem is that you are shaking hands with a lady (in regards to male-female issues)?
As much as I love God and study the Bible, I still sin. Certainly I can sin by thought as well as by deed. That's why I would be beating a hasty retreat... 8)
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But what is so important about pi? What makes it more important that any other random infinite number?
it is used in formulae to calculate the area or circumference of a circle.
that's what is special and unique about it, and why it has its own button on calculators
note- it's infinitely long after the decimal point.. though no doubt so are other numbers.
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But what is so important about pi? What makes it more important that any other random infinite number?
Pi is one of THE most important numbers in mathematics, architecture, physics, science and technology.
Other important numbers are e (the exponential number) and i (the imaginary number). These numbers are fundamental to mathematics.
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So why couldn't they pick a different number for those functions?
'cos other numbers don't work for it!!
the circumference of a circle = 2*pi*r (or pi * diameter , same thing 'cos diameter is 2*r)
if you change pi from 3.1415926....... to 5.4692342 Then you get the wrong value
similarly, the area of a circle is pi * r^2
r is the radius of the circle
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So why couldn't they pick a different number for those functions?
Nobody made it up, it's a fundamental truth. Maths just WORKS because it is a fundamental truth. For example if I have a floor which is 5 tiles by 7 tiles it has 35 tiles as 5 x 7 = 35. If someone had just made up a different number for what 5 x 7 is maths would not work. Maths is fundamental, created by God, not humans.
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Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?
Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.
Yes but seeing an attractive can also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?
No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.
I don't believe that either.
Don't believe what
That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.
I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.
I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...
I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.
haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous
No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking
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<snip>
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking
Ridiculous to ban it, but I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid it. There's sex and there's a small level of sexual feeling. It could cause a small level of sexual feeling.
Guys that kiss like other guys when the greet them (like arabs do) are a real nuisance. Very rare thankfully, but happens. I know a rabbi that does, it has caused most people to avoid him completely.
I have a relative that does it, and I feel obliged to go along with it when he approaches me for it, because if i don't, it looks like i'm uncomfortable with it, which suggests that I think he's a bit gay. Which is an offensive suggestion. So to avoid that, I go along with it. I don't kiss him obviously , he just grabs people and gives them a big kiss on the cheek.
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<snip>
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking
Ridiculous to ban it, but I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid it. There's sex and there's a small level of sexual feeling. It could cause a small level of sexual feeling.
Guys that kiss like other guys when the greet them (like arabs do) are a real nuisance. Very rare thankfully, but happens. I know a rabbi that does, it has caused most people to avoid him completely.
I have a relative that does it, and I feel obliged to go along with it when he approaches me for it, because if i don't, it looks like i'm uncomfortable with it, which suggests that I think he's a bit gay. Which is an offensive suggestion. So to avoid that, I go along with it. I don't kiss him obviously , he just grabs people and gives them a big kiss on the cheek.
yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...
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yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...
in western culture
It's different for women kissing each other on the cheek like you do, than for men. The latter is a very foreign import, probably from arabs.
Are you telling me that in france, men kiss men on the cheek?
what cultures other than arab do that?
I have seen a sephardi kissing the hand of an important rabbi.
I have read that in some remote parts of south america, the tribesmen greet each other with a scrotal handshake - that's one handshake that would preferably be performed without a firm hand and strong/confident squeeze.
I wonder if and how they punish a man that betrays the trust and really squeezes!
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yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...
in western culture
It's different for women kissing each other on the cheek like you do, than for men. The latter is a very foreign import, probably from arabs.
Are you telling me that in france, men kiss men on the cheek?
what cultures other than arab do that?
I have seen a Sefaradi kissing the hand of an important rabbi.
I have read that in some remote parts of south america, the tribesmen greet each other with a scrotal handshake - that's one handshake that would preferably be performed without a firm hand and strong/confident squeeze.
I wonder if and how they punish a man that betrays the trust and really squeezes!
I don't know if French men kiss each other on the cheek, but Italian men do for sure - the double cheek kiss. My Israeli friend's father did that to me too when he was leaving for Florida (he's a Moroccan Jew). I'm pretty sure it's a Mediterranean thing..
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<snip>
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking
Ridiculous to ban it, but I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid it. There's sex and there's a small level of sexual feeling. It could cause a small level of sexual feeling.
Guys that kiss like other guys when the greet them (like arabs do) are a real nuisance. Very rare thankfully, but happens. I know a rabbi that does, it has caused most people to avoid him completely.
I have a relative that does it, and I feel obliged to go along with it when he approaches me for it, because if i don't, it looks like i'm uncomfortable with it, which suggests that I think he's a bit gay. Which is an offensive suggestion. So to avoid that, I go along with it. I don't kiss him obviously , he just grabs people and gives them a big kiss on the cheek.
yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...
I know in Croatia they kiss on both cheeks
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yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...
in western culture
It's different for women kissing each other on the cheek like you do, than for men. The latter is a very foreign import, probably from arabs.
Are you telling me that in france, men kiss men on the cheek?
what cultures other than arab do that?
I have seen a Sefaradi kissing the hand of an important rabbi.
I have read that in some remote parts of south america, the tribesmen greet each other with a scrotal handshake - that's one handshake that would preferably be performed without a firm hand and strong/confident squeeze.
I wonder if and how they punish a man that betrays the trust and really squeezes!
yea men do, i have friends in france and been there many times, and yea guys do.. its not considered gay or anything.... and they werent arabs lol... and so do girls. its cool
scrotal handshakes.. sounds fun! now im sure the rabbis wouldn't ban that one O0 O0 O0
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yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...
in western culture
It's different for women kissing each other on the cheek like you do, than for men. The latter is a very foreign import, probably from arabs.
Are you telling me that in france, men kiss men on the cheek?
what cultures other than arab do that?
I have seen a Sefaradi kissing the hand of an important rabbi.
I have read that in some remote parts of south america, the tribesmen greet each other with a scrotal handshake - that's one handshake that would preferably be performed without a firm hand and strong/confident squeeze.
I wonder if and how they punish a man that betrays the trust and really squeezes!
yea men do, i have friends in france and been there many times, and yea guys do.. its not considered gay or anything.... and they werent arabs lol... and so do girls. its cool
scrotal handshakes.. sounds fun! now im sure the rabbis wouldn't ban that one O0 O0 O0
I know it is normal it's not gay at all most people do it to relatives and close friends
Scrotal handshakes ??? :P
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All men in the Roman language speaking countries of Europe kiss eachother on the cheek when they greet.
In Belgium, The French speaking Walloons do this.
We Flemish, never do this...
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it's unhygienic
the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people in america have herpes
Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.
I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores. EVen when dormant one can catch them. She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.
She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE". which was a bit embarassing. Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton! It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay.. Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!
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it's unhygienic
the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people in america have herpes
Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.
I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores. EVen when dormant one can catch them. She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.
She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE". which was a bit embarassing. Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton! It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay.. Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!
It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.
well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.
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it's unhygienic
the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people in america have herpes
Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.
I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores. EVen when dormant one can catch them. She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.
She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE". which was a bit embarassing. Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton! It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay.. Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!
It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.
well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.
But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.
they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha :)
oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol
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But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.
Nobody saw me kissing an old woman. They saw the old woman kissing me. If I did kiss her, it was after she very loudly ordered me to. And it was a family event , and she kisses everybody, so nobody would have thought anything. (apart from noticing that i'm not a kissing type)
If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting. You made a flat out statement before.
note- There was no hug either. Though I suppose there should have been to make it look more sociable and less forced. I have done bear hugs when I was a kid, but not on her. And even those I stopped after I hurt a (male) relative's ribs. Hugging men isn't my thing. and hugging women - whether they are 29 or 90, has a minor issue, they have breasts. Hugging a 90 year old woman, you would have to not think about it. And hugging a 29 year old one, would give a sexual feeling, so if trying to avoid sexual feelings, you wouldn't hug one or look at one.
Fact is though , any avoidance of sexual feeling, would normally come after one is so religious that it's visibly very obvious. Beard , payot, big kippa , in yeshiva, black hat rabbi. So mitzva observance is obviously going to be on full blast . You are unusual in having your priorities set out differently.
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If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting. You made a flat out statement before.
I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.
Well then you should have included those exceptions in your statement where you wrote.
"It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband"
It was indeed that category. She has many children and grandchildren.
There are really many situations where a culture may include kissing outside of your now amended rule.
If you have some hard halachic rule, then all exceptions should be stated, and personal preference doesn't come into it.
If you make up your own rule, then really it all comes down to personality. I can tell you that i'm a bit unusual in that I do not consider kissing to be sexual.. I consider it an irrational unhygienic nuisance, and an extremely stupid, unnecessary, problematic way of obtaining skin/flesh contact, and fairly poor contact in terms of surface area, too.
Mouths are for putting food in and letting a voice out. I have no interest in sampling a woman's saliva any more than I do of drinking the water that a woman has washed her feet in. I am not attracted to bodily fluids like saliva just because they happen to pour out of the body of a woman. I am just not attracted to saliva - female or male. Or breath.
So I might even be more difficult than you ;-)
But there are girls, the type that watch star trek and admire vulcans(spock, tuvok), that would probably agree with me. People just aren't brave enough to admit it. I know a few girls that would be horrified at the thought of somebody putting their face against theirs, lips on lips, risk of bad breath , saliva, a zoomed in view of a little spot, who knows what , e.t.c. !
I have a sex drive like anybody else. Not a kiss drive.
That's my personality though.. I wouldn't expect other people to adopt my view. Not everybody can be logical, and some people really do have an attraction to kisses, and a numbness to the saliva and breath. Most people infact..
So bottom line is all that counts in terms of what jews should adopt, is Halacha - jewish law.
So far you have not quoted anything. No source.
And even if something is jewish law, it doesn't mean we police it (of course you only refer to policing it on jews in israel).
The reason why rabbi kahane would have banned intermarriage were he PM, was because it is a big and real cause of drops in jewish numbers, and it's not a private thing. You can't and shouldn't try policing what people do in their home.. It would even turn people away. And rabbi kahane said that, he said that we are a sick people and can only be healed gradually, so he wouldn't go in and enforce all jewish laws. (and even if we had reached the point of him as PM and us healthy/religious, then I don't think he owuld have tried to police what people do in their homes. I know you probably mean it as fun, but that was not clear in your original post, and given the size of the thread, and the continuously visible subject, it will never be clear).
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If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting. You made a flat out statement before.
I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.
What do you mean you cant Hug your Aunt?
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If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting. You made a flat out statement before.
I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.
What do you mean you cant Hug your Aunt?
HE MEANS HE DOESN'T THINK ONE SHOULD HUG THEIR AUNT
and HE MEANS HE DOESN'T HUG HIS AUNT
What the hell do you think he meant.
Many people don't hug their aunts. I don't!
don't let these things suprise you so much.
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If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting. You made a flat out statement before.
I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.
What do you mean you cant Hug your Aunt?
HE MEANS HE DOESN'T THINK ONE SHOULD HUG THEIR AUNT
and HE MEANS HE DOESN'T HUG HIS AUNT
What the hell do you think he meant.
Many people don't hug their aunts. I don't!
don't let these things suprise you so much.
I am not asking him why he doesn't. I was asking why are you permitted to hug your Mom and Grandmother but you are not permitted to hug your Aunt.
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I am not asking him why he doesn't. I was asking why are you permitted to hug your Mom and Grandmother but you are not permitted to hug your Aunt.
The reason is because that's Jewish Law.
If you think so then you should be able to quote a source
Preferably textual, from a classic jewish law book. Like where in the shulchan aruch, or where in the mishneh torah.
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If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting. You made a flat out statement before.
I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.
lol you can't hug ur aunt? thats rediculous
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If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting. You made a flat out statement before.
I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.
lol you can't hug ur aunt? thats rediculous
spelt ridiculous.
I had a friend that pronounced it rediculous - once, that was because he was experimenting with a sense of "humor".
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<snip>
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking
Ridiculous to ban it, but I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid it. There's sex and there's a small level of sexual feeling. It could cause a small level of sexual feeling.
Guys that kiss like other guys when the greet them (like arabs do) are a real nuisance. Very rare thankfully, but happens. I know a rabbi that does, it has caused most people to avoid him completely.
I have a relative that does it, and I feel obliged to go along with it when he approaches me for it, because if i don't, it looks like i'm uncomfortable with it, which suggests that I think he's a bit gay. Which is an offensive suggestion. So to avoid that, I go along with it. I don't kiss him obviously , he just grabs people and gives them a big kiss on the cheek.
yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...
i generally try to avoid kissing total strangers when gretting them..especially women..and i'm not shomer negia..
But it's funny actually..just the other day i was walking the streets and some asian girl starts flirting with me in order for me to "give to the children" of Latin America...I was really uncomfortable by the way she was touching me in her friendly manner..it was really invasive.
And at work today, one of the secretaries friends came to the office and she was looking at me raping me with her eyes...it made me feel really uncomfortable to the point that i started showing everyone pics of my gf just to give her no hope and walk away.
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it's unhygienic
the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people in america have herpes
Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.
I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores. EVen when dormant one can catch them. She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.
She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE". which was a bit embarassing. Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton! It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay.. Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!
It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.
well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.
But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.
i would agree if he has his kipa on...but if it isn't on and there is no indication that phsycially he's a Jew or religious Jew, then kissing an old woman isn't a big deal..
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it's unhygienic
the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people in america have herpes
Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.
I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores. EVen when dormant one can catch them. She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.
She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE". which was a bit embarassing. Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton! It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay.. Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!
It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.
well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.
But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.
they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha :)
oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol
I think you are wrong from a religious standpoint.
If the tradition and rule of Orthodox Jews is not to do those things, you dont' want to give antoher Orthodox Jew the impression that you are allowed to do it...
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it's unhygienic
the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people in america have herpes
Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.
I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores. EVen when dormant one can catch them. She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.
She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE". which was a bit embarassing. Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton! It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay.. Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!
It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.
well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.
But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.
they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha :)
oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol
I think you are wrong from a religious standpoint.
If the tradition and rule of Orthodox Jews is not to do those things, you dont' want to give antoher Orthodox Jew the impression that you are allowed to do it...
good thing im not an orthodox jew then :) and im glad im not one.. btw thanks for the spelling lesson dr dan ill make sure to go through the forum and find something you misspelled
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it's unhygienic
the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people in america have herpes
Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.
I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores. EVen when dormant one can catch them. She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.
She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE". which was a bit embarassing. Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton! It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay.. Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!
It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.
well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.
But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.
they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha :)
oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol
I think you are wrong from a religious standpoint.
If the tradition and rule of Orthodox Jews is not to do those things, you dont' want to give antoher Orthodox Jew the impression that you are allowed to do it...
good thing im not an orthodox jew then :) and im glad im not one.. btw thanks for the spelling lesson dr dan ill make sure to go through the forum and find something you misspelled
hehehe nor am I :)
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i generally try to avoid kissing total strangers when gretting them..especially women..and i'm not shomer negia..
But it's funny actually..just the other day i was walking the streets and some asian girl starts flirting with me in order for me to "give to the children" of Latin America...I was really uncomfortable by the way she was touching me in her friendly manner..it was really invasive.
And at work today, one of the secretaries friends came to the office and she was looking at me raping me with her eyes...it made me feel really uncomfortable to the point that i started showing everyone pics of my gf just to give her no hope and walk away.
That is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard a man say. You felt (in a negative way) like you were (helpless and) being raped by a woman!.. As punishment, you should be neutered.
the pics of your gf was good thinking though.
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i generally try to avoid kissing total strangers when gretting them..especially women..and i'm not shomer negia..
But it's funny actually..just the other day i was walking the streets and some asian girl starts flirting with me in order for me to "give to the children" of Latin America...I was really uncomfortable by the way she was touching me in her friendly manner..it was really invasive.
And at work today, one of the secretaries friends came to the office and she was looking at me raping me with her eyes...it made me feel really uncomfortable to the point that i started showing everyone pics of my gf just to give her no hope and walk away.
That is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard a man say. You felt (in a negative way) like you were (helpless and) being raped by a woman!.. As punishment, you should be neutered.
the pics of your gf was good thinking though.
I was uncomfortable for the first time with a girl looking at me like the way she did..and she was pretty cute too...
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even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings
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even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings
If you want to argue that judaism is false, as you are by writing what you just wrote, then go elsewhere.
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it's unhygienic
the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people in america have herpes
Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.
I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores. EVen when dormant one can catch them. She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.
She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE". which was a bit embarassing. Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton! It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay.. Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!
It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.
well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.
But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.
they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha :)
oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol
I think you are wrong from a religious standpoint.
If the tradition and rule of Orthodox Jews is not to do those things, you dont' want to give antoher Orthodox Jew the impression that you are allowed to do it...
good thing im not an orthodox jew then :) and im glad im not one.. btw thanks for the spelling lesson dr dan ill make sure to go through the forum and find something you misspelled
That is an ignorant thing to say. When one will face G-d in their trial, G-d is not going to say "ooh you are not Orthodox" so it is okay to do x, y, and z, but for the Orthodox Jew it is forbidden and if they do it they will be severly punished (purified), but for another Jew, or Jewess it is okay. Bottom line- All Jews are equally obligated and held responsible in not commiting the sins that G-d has written. If G-d wanted to give some Commandments to some Jews and not to others, He would have said soo (as is the case with Kohanim for example), but these things are Commanded for All and All (Jews) are held responsible, no matter if they call themselves "Orthodox" or "reform" Or even Athiest, still everyone is held responsible and these are just silly excuses.
Soo what to do? Learn the proper things in life and do them, and also NOT do the improper things in life. What defines what is proper and not? - the Torah of G-d which is a Divine book. If anyone has any doubt if it is the word of G-d or not, then say soo (I can point out many very good video's showing that the Torah can only be Divine without ANY doubt).
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q q ur last comment was uncalled for, i am a proud orthodox jew, the torah to me is a way of life, i would never second guess the ancient scriptures, i was mearly making a point :(
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q q ur last comment was uncalled for, i am a proud orthodox jew, the torah to me is a way of life, i would never second guess the ancient scriptures, i was mearly making a point :(
You said "even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings"
I am curious to know then, what was your point ?
Who are these scholars. What do they say. ?
Indeed. If they don't believe in its accuracy, then what is the purpose of them writing if not to try to undermine torah judaism. An orthodox jew would not consider such people "religious". They are anti religious, I would say 100% are anti religious. They are unorthodox. An orthodox jew would not consider them religious scholars. Not of his bible religion, or of any bible based religion.
And since you claim to be an orthodox jew, what is your idea of a religious scholar that does not accept the torah's accuracy?
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q q ur last comment was uncalled for, i am a proud orthodox jew, the torah to me is a way of life, i would never second guess the ancient scriptures, i was mearly making a point :(
You said "even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings"
I am curious to know then, what was your point ?
Who are these scholars. What do they say. ?
Indeed. If they don't believe in its accuracy, then what is the purpose of them writing if not to try to undermine torah judaism. An orthodox jew would not consider such people "religious". They are anti religious, I would say 100% are anti religious. They are unorthodox. An orthodox jew would not consider them religious scholars. Not of his bible religion, or of any bible based religion.
And since you claim to be an orthodox jew, what is your idea of a religious scholar that does not accept the torah's accuracy?
i know you arent' addressing me here..but I will make a fundamental note:
The Torah is very accurate...However, a human being's interpretation of it is inaccurate. Our great Sages, on the other hand were much more accurate than a non-Sage most of the time with their interpretations.
ok...continue...
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q q ur last comment was uncalled for, i am a proud orthodox jew, the torah to me is a way of life, i would never second guess the ancient scriptures, i was mearly making a point :(
You said "even religious scholars argue on the scriptual accuracies of some of the torahs' writings"
I am curious to know then, what was your point ?
Who are these scholars. What do they say. ?
Indeed. If they don't believe in its accuracy, then what is the purpose of them writing if not to try to undermine torah judaism. An orthodox jew would not consider such people "religious". They are anti religious, I would say 100% are anti religious. They are unorthodox. An orthodox jew would not consider them religious scholars. Not of his bible religion, or of any bible based religion.
And since you claim to be an orthodox jew, what is your idea of a religious scholar that does not accept the torah's accuracy?
i know you arent' addressing me here..but I will make a fundamental note:
The Torah is very accurate...However, a human being's interpretation of it is inaccurate. Our great Sages, on the other hand were much more accurate than a non-Sage most of the time with their interpretations.
ok...continue...
Also its more then that. IT is kinda hard to explain fully, and it also depends on which sage says something, BUT at the very least when their was a Sanhedrin and it decided on one was of applying the law, even if their was a disagreement or another great Hacham said something else and had all the proof infront of him, and even if Heaven came to testify that he is correct, IF the other sages said something contrary it had/has to be followed. For example their is a story in the Gemorah where Rabbi Eliezer argues with the sages about a certain oven being allowed or not on Shabb-t. They said No, he said Yes. It came to the pont where he said let the walls of this ceiling go down if I am correct, and they were collapsing until another sage Rabbi Yoshua said stop, and it did. He even said let their be a voice from heaven saying that I am correct, and their was, BUT Rabbi Yoshua said back that with all die respect the law is not decided in Heaven, G-d gave the laws, and He has written in the Torah to listin to the sages and follow them (which is a commandment also), and when they make a ruling the nation is then obligated to follow them even if heaven itself testifies that the other opinion is correct. G-d then says that He is "defeated", but this type of defeat, is a defeat of rejoicing, as it says in Tehillim about G-d who is "defeated" and rejoices (It has a number of lessons on how G-d is so-called "defeated" which is not literal of-course (One can either look at this as literal, or Aggadah which is symbolic, but either way the message is "Lo Bishimaim.." ) The Torah is not in heaven, but here and is to be decided here. BUTTT that does NOT mean that in todays generation their will be and are "Rabbis" that we would have to follow their majority, it is the majority of the Real Hachamim, (and the best scenario is the Sanhedrin).
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ok i believe that this website is supposed to be a safe zone for jews, i believe i am intitled to an opionon, so my view is that some things that are in the torah are basicaly a moral law of older times, i mean the torah will be the law of jews forever but as humanity evolves arent the customs, and the ways society and even or khanist society sometimes will defy meagure (will have to check spelling) and perhaps very very small or insignificant beliefs of the torah. i believe that pre maritial sex is completly against what the torah stands for, but i mean if you and ur significant other wish to um.... show signs of affection to one another (in that way) i believe that those two are entitled to do so, so long as it is a private matter. does anyone else know what i mean ?
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qq, dr dan is completly intitled to his feelings, its not pathetic.
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Who would want to marry someone without knowing if they have chemistry or not? It IS important, as is love.
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qq, dr dan is completly intitled to his feelings, its not pathetic.
For a man especially,
All feelings are pathetic, look to Mr Spock for guidance.
Not Leonard Nemoy, but Mr Spock.
You can settle for Tuvok, he is also a good example.
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Actually, that is a dangerous statement I made there.. about vulcan mentality being ideal.
If you ever see Gordan Ramsey's kitchen nightmares. It's a program where "Chef Gordan" fixes up failing restaurants. Or rather, fixes the owner and chef, of failing restaurants
You notice in all these cases, the chef there lacks passion.. (and lacks obsession with being a chef). He is totally *ambivalent*, lacking in feeling. And that totally demotivates him.
Gordan either sacks the chef.. or, manages to make the chef passionate again. Bringing back the passion.
And furthermore, even if one wants to be like Spock, the fact is that judaism requires that one be happy and sad.. Happy at simchas-joyous occassions(weddings e.t.c. ), and sad at prescribed times, like tisha b'av (mourning the destruction of the temple).
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ok i believe that this website is supposed to be a safe zone for jews, i believe i am intitled to an opionon, so my view is that some things that are in the torah are basicaly a moral law of older times, i mean the torah will be the law of jews forever but as humanity evolves arent the customs, and the ways society and even or khanist society sometimes will defy meagure (will have to check spelling) and perhaps very very small or insignificant beliefs of the torah. i believe that pre maritial sex is completly against what the torah stands for, but i mean if you and ur significant other wish to um.... show signs of affection to one another (in that way) i believe that those two are entitled to do so, so long as it is a private matter. does anyone else know what i mean ?
I know what you mean...once again...it's between the couple.. THe couple should be aware that they ought to wait before marraige...and even try to do that...
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Who would want to marry someone without knowing if they have chemistry or not? It IS important, as is love.
If you mean sexual chemistry..like to have sex to see if there is chemistry...i think you are very wrong...
if you mean intellectual chemistry, then of course you're correct.
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dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral
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dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral
the thing is, premarital sex is technically immoral..
just like a jew eating pork is immoral..he still has a choice to eat it...
it's not for me to judge what an umarried couple did if they got married..however, the right way is not to do it...there are exceptions i'm sure..but still, if those exceptions are not needed, the right way is to wait.
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dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral
it's not for me to judge what an umarried couple did if they got married..however, the right way is not to do it...there are exceptions i'm sure..but still, if those exceptions are not needed, the right way is to wait.
Just for the record according to Halacha it is only wrong for Jews. It is not a problem for a non-Jew to go to a club and pick up some chick and do as they please, but for a Jew it is a serious crime (very serious, where the penalty could be spiritual excommunication and premature death, G-d forbid).
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um as i mentioned before that rule about early death. it al has to do with what society and what time period it is in (lol thats why jews dont get aids)
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Yes, it should be banned.
Can we PLEASE end this awful topic.
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dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral
it's not for me to judge what an umarried couple did if they got married..however, the right way is not to do it...there are exceptions i'm sure..but still, if those exceptions are not needed, the right way is to wait.
Just for the record according to Halacha it is only wrong for Jews. It is not a problem for a non-Jew to go to a club and pick up some chick and do as they please, but for a Jew it is a serious crime (very serious, where the penalty could be spiritual excommunication and premature death, G-d forbid).
I highly doubt it, Tzvi...these are scare tactics which work for people like you. I don't subscribe to this, "you'll die and go to hell if you do this and if you do that!" We follow a religion that believes in a merciful god. We have days like Yom Kippur to ask for another chance at life each year. We read in the chumash everyday for Gd to forgive us and pardon us in the Amidah. So, I highly doubt the things you say about these penalties.
However, I will agree that it is better to wait till one gets married than to do it before. I would want that for my children and for those who I love dearly..Jew or righteous gentile. There is a higher spiritual uplifting between a couple that waits versus those that don't. But to not do it because one might go to hell or be excommunicated are for those people who don't really understand the wold from experience...that's just my opinion...
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Yes, it should be banned.
Can we PLEASE end this awful topic.
nope...but if you don't like it, you can post on a different thread. At least it is in the dating section and not the general discussion section.
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Yes, it should be banned.
Can we PLEASE end this awful topic.
nope...but if you don't like it, you can post on a different thread. At least it is in the dating section and not the general discussion section.
Why are you so argumentative, Doctor?
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Yes, it should be banned.
Can we PLEASE end this awful topic.
nope...but if you don't like it, you can post on a different thread. At least it is in the dating section and not the general discussion section.
Why are you so argumentative, Doctor?
ok, you want to start more trouble to get this thread locked too...eh..i'm too tired...talk to you tomorrow... :P
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dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral
it's not for me to judge what an umarried couple did if they got married..however, the right way is not to do it...there are exceptions i'm sure..but still, if those exceptions are not needed, the right way is to wait.
Just for the record according to Halacha it is only wrong for Jews. It is not a problem for a non-Jew to go to a club and pick up some chick and do as they please, but for a Jew it is a serious crime (very serious, where the penalty could be spiritual excommunication and premature death, G-d forbid).
I highly doubt it, Tzvi...these are scare tactics which work for people like you. I don't subscribe to this, "you'll die and go to hell if you do this and if you do that!" We follow a religion that believes in a merciful G-d. We have days like Yom Kippur to ask for another chance at life each year. We read in the chumash everyday for Gd to forgive us and pardon us in the Amidah. So, I highly doubt the things you say about these penalties.
However, I will agree that it is better to wait till one gets married than to do it before. I would want that for my children and for those who I love dearly..Jew or righteous gentile. There is a higher spiritual uplifting between a couple that waits versus those that don't. But to not do it because one might go to hell or be excommunicated are for those people who don't really understand the wold from experience...that's just my opinion...
Dont fool yourself into saying things are not a big deal. It is not scare tactics, it is Halacha. And it says that if someone says G-d is merciful, this or that is not a big deal, it is said that that person will be severly punished, and if one says that they will sin and then repent (like on Yom Kippur), then repentence would be verry difficult in that case and almost completly closed (and not accepted). But on the other hand if someone did whatever he or she did in the past and then knows the truth and works for repentence then their is a higher chance it will be accepted.
Also the same topic of Yom Kippur, etc. Many, unfortunatly ignoramouses believe in that way, that they will do whatever hey like throughout the year and then on 1 day (Yom Kippur) they will fast, and come to shul and then somehow magically all of the sins will be cleansed, it is such foolishness and wishful thinking.
G-d is merciful, but at the same time G-d uses Judgement. Just look at the Holocaust at how all of these people perished, it certainly came from G-d, and if that generation deserved it, how much more soo others (G-d forbid).
And by the way- It is Karet- to sleep with a lady that is Nidda and I highly doubt a girl who is not married to be going to the Mikva, and if she is and one does have relations with her then she is married to you (it is a cursed marriage), but as I said in the past it is a problem becuase she would then have to go to a Rav, explain the whole situation and maybe even have to get a divorce from the first guy she was with in order to properly marry someone else, and if not it could possibly be like she is cheating (which means both of them- her and the "husband" deserve the death penalty)- so either way a Rav should be asked on how to avoid that.
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dr dan i mean it really is up to the couple, yes they should wait but they have the option not to. i think love really should be optional in the way people express themselves, so long as it is moral
it's not for me to judge what an umarried couple did if they got married..however, the right way is not to do it...there are exceptions i'm sure..but still, if those exceptions are not needed, the right way is to wait.
Just for the record according to Halacha it is only wrong for Jews. It is not a problem for a non-Jew to go to a club and pick up some chick and do as they please, but for a Jew it is a serious crime (very serious, where the penalty could be spiritual excommunication and premature death, G-d forbid).
I highly doubt it, Tzvi...these are scare tactics which work for people like you. I don't subscribe to this, "you'll die and go to hell if you do this and if you do that!" We follow a religion that believes in a merciful G-d. We have days like Yom Kippur to ask for another chance at life each year. We read in the chumash everyday for Gd to forgive us and pardon us in the Amidah. So, I highly doubt the things you say about these penalties.
However, I will agree that it is better to wait till one gets married than to do it before. I would want that for my children and for those who I love dearly..Jew or righteous gentile. There is a higher spiritual uplifting between a couple that waits versus those that don't. But to not do it because one might go to hell or be excommunicated are for those people who don't really understand the wold from experience...that's just my opinion...
Dont fool yourself into saying things are not a big deal. It is not scare tactics, it is Halacha. And it says that if someone says G-d is merciful, this or that is not a big deal, it is said that that person will be severly punished, and if one says that they will sin and then repent (like on Yom Kippur), then repentence would be verry difficult in that case and almost completly closed (and not accepted). But on the other hand if someone did whatever he or she did in the past and then knows the truth and works for repentence then their is a higher chance it will be accepted.
Also the same topic of Yom Kippur, etc. Many, unfortunatly ignoramouses believe in that way, that they will do whatever hey like throughout the year and then on 1 day (Yom Kippur) they will fast, and come to shul and then somehow magically all of the sins will be cleansed, it is such foolishness and wishful thinking.
G-d is merciful, but at the same time G-d uses Judgement. Just look at the Holocaust at how all of these people perished, it certainly came from G-d, and if that generation deserved it, how much more soo others (G-d forbid).
And by the way- It is Karet- to sleep with a lady that is Nidda and I highly doubt a girl who is not married to be going to the Mikva, and if she is and one does have relations with her then she is married to you (it is a cursed marriage), but as I said in the past it is a problem becuase she would then have to go to a Rav, explain the whole situation and maybe even have to get a divorce from the first guy she was with in order to properly marry someone else, and if not it could possibly be like she is cheating (which means both of them- her and the "husband" deserve the death penalty)- so either way a Rav should be asked on how to avoid that.
ok whatever...enjoy...
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there is no need..
all we have to do is to be aware of possible undesirable consequences for it to be avoided.
doing such stuffs is quiet natural for healthy human being for it is bodily needed.
it simply requires personal responsibility in everything that one has to do.
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smart answer.
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no, HOLDING hands is FINE.
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Paulette!!!
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k447/baptistjihad/hand2.jpg)
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no, holding hands should only be banned by losers who can't get girlfriends and vice versa
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Gosh, this is such an interesting thread. I really like shaking hands, holding hands, putting my arms around someone I care about. I do this all the time with the opposite sex and don't get aroused. I'm not a metrosexual either. Just a good ol boy...(banjo music cuts in).
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Wow, this is a blast from the past. These are the types of quality threads our former turd in chief started. Only a mentaly deranged individual would want everything banned simply because he himself can't control his urges.
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It should not be banned at all. It's everybody's choice to do what they want in these situations. Don't be like the Islamic states who ban everything.