JTF.ORG Forum
The Worldwide Crisis of Islam => The Truth About Islam => Topic started by: YahuwAllah on January 16, 2007, 01:34:10 PM
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This Nazi moron called the thread: "The Superior Virtue of Mohammed to David and Solomon". I changed the title to something more fitting.
first let me state my foundational belief: that Islam is the spiritual offshoot of Judaism's rejection of Christ. as you probably know, the approximately 50% of the Jewish nation who rejected Christ did so because He did not fit their image of a conquering Davidic King. (Some historians estimate that, after the Romans suppressed the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135 AD, up to 50% of the Jews surviving in Palestine and the west had become followers of Christ.) Muhammad does fit this image, and he came onto the stage of world history as a challenge to the Jews, as though G-d said: "You wanted a conquering warrior king? here he is and his name is Muhammad. now submit!"
i believe that if you examine the evidence of Muhammad's life carefully and objectively, it is obvious that he was a conquering religious figure very much in the tradition of the great israelite warrior kings of the Tanach. in fact it is clear to me that Muhammad was far more ethical and moral than either of Israel's two greatest Kings: David and Solomon. David, revered to this day by Christians and Jews alike, had far more blood on his hands than did Muhammad, and Solomon had far more wives. in fact to even compare them is an insult to Muhammad's integrity.
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to the extent that Christians admire these Tanach warrior kings, and to the extent the Jews to this day aspire to return to those days of Judaistic glory, Islam indeed is a legitimate religion. in fact it is a far superior religion to Tanach Judaism, and it is a more comprehensive form of theocracy than New Testament Christianity.
furthermore, Mr. Sina should be aware that throughout Jewish history, since the time of Muhammad, rabbinical scholars have been most complimentary towards Islam, regarding it as a pure monotheistic faith of a much higher degree than Christianity, which Jewish rabbis continue to view as a form of idolatry. for example, religious jews are allowed to pray inside a mosque, while they are not even allowed to stand inside a church. this is a further indication that, from the rabbinic perspective, Islam not only is a credible religion, but it is the ONLY such credible religion in the world apart from Judaism.
regarding the threadbare accusations that Muhammad was a pederast, well let Mr. Sina and his ilk explain the Jewish rabbinic claim that Isaac married Rebecca when she was 3 years old, and that David seduced Bathsheba when she was 7 years old! so if you want to accuse Muhammad of pederasty, at least be consistent and level the same accusation against these revered Tanach figures. but i know Mr. Sina likely cannot do that, because neither Christians nor Jews are able to see the beam in their own eyes even as they castigate Islam over its own very small splinter.
in my experience, so called Judeo Christianity rails against Islam for one of two reasons: either it is jealous of spiritual achievements made by Islam that they have failed to do themselves, or it projects its own evils onto Islam.
consider the mode of Islamic worship: barefoot and in prostration before the LORD. Jews used to worship this way long ago in the Jerusalem Temple, but since its destruction by the Romans no more. in fact i was once expelled from a synagogue in israel for the crime of removing my shoes during worship! (i was told this was imitating a pagan practice, and when i queeried them about Moses at the burning bush, they said that they have places in psychiatric hospitals for people who ask things like that!)
or consider Moslem dress. any Christian who watches a Hollywood Biblical film will see actors dressed exactly as Muslims dress today. in a film that is quaint, but in real life they have only enmity for the Moslems.
or consider the recent attack on Islamic violence by the Pope, who conveniently forgot to mention Christendom's own bloody history, which far suprasses anything every perpetrated in Islam.
examples such as these (and there are many many more) demonstrate that most Judeo-Christian critics of Islam are shallow and shameful hypocrites.
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Profesor Depew,
i'm glad you asked this question, because most christians just let the comments pass with scarcely a raised eyebrow!
in today's climate in which christians are goaded on by jews to villify islam, i find that a bit more understanding of rabbinics would lend a lot of needed sobriety to the overall situation.
it is patently dishonest to criticize Muhammad for ills or sins that the leading Tanach figures themselves indulged in or were guilty of, and about which neither jews nor christians have scarcely a condemning word to say!
mark gabriel's book comparing Jesus and Muhammad therefore is polemical and idealogical, rather than balanced. the fact is that Judaism always has viewed Islam more charitably than it has viewed Christianity. the great rabbis all regard Islam as a true Monotheistic Faith, while they view Christianity as a kind of hybrid between Monotheism and Idolatry. the Jewish legal codes forbid a Jew from even entering into a Catholic or Orthodox Church, due to the iconic art that venerates Jesus, to say nothing of worshipping there. However a Jew is permitted to worship inside a mosque.
the rabbis have never had a negative word to say about the violence of Islam, considering it instead to be God's means of driving idolatry out of the world. only the recent creation of the zionist israeli state has caused conflict with Islam for which there is no theological or historical precedent in Jewish-Moslem relations since the time of Muhammad.
in my view the spiritual root of Islam is the Jewish rejection of Christ as a suffering servant Messiah in favour of their dream of a conquering Davidic-King. Muhammad in every respect fits the bill of an Tanach warrior king. in fact it is clear to anyone who studies his life that Muhammad was much more ethical in his personal and religious behaviour than either of the most famous Israelite Kings: David or Solomon. Muhammad had far fewer wives and concubines than both of these famous OT personalities. He was more popular with his people. He did not impose burdensome taxation. He unified Arabia, rather than dividing it as Solomon did to his kingdom. And he successfully rooted out all idolatry from the region.
another curious thing about the so called Judeo-Christian-Zionist alliance is that it ignores the fact that Islam is much more reverential to Jesus than Judaism is. while Islam terms Jesus a prophet and Messiah, who was born of the Word of God to the Virgin Mary, Judaism calls Him a magician and sorceror, born illegitimately to His mother a whore. and while Islam denies that Christ was crucified and raised from the dead, claiming instead that He was raptured to heaven like the Prophet Elijah, Judaism fairly gloats in the shameful crucifixion He received and also denies the Resurrection. Muhammad based these ideas on the doctrines of Nestorians and other Christian sects that were prevalent in the Arabian Peninsula at that time. He also received instruction from Jewish rabbis, particularly after he moved to Medina in the hijjra.
so the current posture of "Judeo-Christianity" that castigates Islam as the anti Christ religion is simply polemical and idealogical, and it stems from a marriage of convenience based on mutual economic and political benefit. this can hardly be termed a marriage; it is much more a tryst or a fornication. and it is the shame of American Christianity, which has forsaken so many of its principles in order to curry pecuniary favour with Jewish Zionist organizations. American Christianity can no longer serve as an honest broker of human dispute or an honest propagater of the Truth of the Gospel. its determination to fornicate with Zionist idealogy has made contemptible the entire Christian religion. it has mocked Christ's sacrifice and spilled His blood afresh.
it also is clear that the Jewish denial that Jesus is the great seed from the line of Isaac, as Paul writes in Galatians, has led to Islam's denial that Isaac's seed was blessed in this unique way at all. as a reflection of Jewish contempt for Christ, Islam has shown contempt to Isaac, claiming rather that the true Prophetic Blessings went from Ishmael to Muhammad.
thus Islam seems to be a double product of Jewish opposition to Christ: it reflects Jewish desire for a conquering Davidic King and Jewish disdain of Isaac's seedline.
i believe that when the Jews come to accept the holiness of Jesus' birth and ministry, then Moslems will come to recognize the holiness of His death on the Cross and His resurrection.
this answer on an internet question forum summarizes what i believe to be the accurate and balanced view of Muhammad:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060917050819AAd1Dxg
Prophet Muhammad (May ALLAH ALMIGHTY Exalt His Mention) Married Life:
- up to age 25, celibate
- 25-54, married to one woman, who died when he was 50
- 54-60, multiple wives - after 60, no new wives
Note: he only married women, besides his first wife, for one of two reasons...
1) he married widows of slain warriors. (he once married 3 opposition widows)
2) to make alliances w/opposing tribes
There are difference of opinion of scholars regarding the age of Aisha (pbuh) at the time of her marriage with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), some say 9 , Some say 12 and some say 15. The exact age is not confirmed.
Likewise, the Christian scholars have discrepancy of opinion regarding the age of Mary (pbuh) at the time of birth of Jesus (pbuh), some say 14 , and some say 16.
Aisha pbuh was reached at the age of puberty when she married prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Islam says that anyone can marry when he or she reaches his or her puberty. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married with Aisha (pbuh) by her will. Aishah was most pleased with this marriage. Her parents were very pleased with this marriage.
The incident took place 1400 years ago in warm climate region. It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age, India, Saudi Arabia and, other equatorial countries. Even today in these countries, there are cases reported of early maturity. Thus the case is totally different from that which does exist in cold regions where a girl does not attain puberty before 21 [Physicians maintain that the age of puberty in hot regions normally ranges from 9 to 16].
Remember, Isaac (at 40) married Rebekah (the mother of Jacob and Esau), when she was three.
"According to the Midrash, Rebeccah was 3 years old when Abraham sent his loyal servant Eliezer to his family's homeland in Aram-Naharayim to find a wife for Isaac."
How old was Mary when Jesus was born?
How old was Marry when Jesus was born?
How Many wives did Solomon have?, Avraham, Jacob, David, Moses or AH-MOSES, joseph ...etc (May ALLAH Exalt Their Mention)?.
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following is a letter i sent to Mark Gabriel, who purports to be an Egyptian Moslem convert to Christianity, who wrote a very polemical book denouncing Islam and praising Christianity. i sent comments to him about his claims, to which he never responded:
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Muhammad-Differences-Surprising-Similarities/dp/1591852919/sr=8-3/qid=1158345029/ref=pd_bbs_3/102-5413716-1875311?ie=UTF8&s=books
this book by egyptian christian convert, Mark Gabriel, is a very thoughtful comparison of the teachings of Jesus and Muhammad. however, mr. gabriel betrays some bias in how he presents the evidence without taking account of the historical circumstances behind each man's era.
i wish to ask some questions of the author that will give him, and us his readers, a more objective view.
let me begin by stating outright my view that Islam is the spiritual offspring of the Jews' rejection of Jesus Christ - the Suffering Servant - in favour of an anticipated conquering Davidic King. in my view Muhammad was exactly that: such a conquering King. Like David, he endured suffering and shame, escaped into exile, proved himself a masterful diplomat and general, and heard from the Voice of God. like David, for whom neither Christians nor Jews make any apologies, Muhammad lived in bloody times and his hands were full of blood. and like David he had numerous wives, but fewer than David and far fewer than his son, Solomon, for both of whom neither Christians nor Jews make any apologies.
(a more objective consideration of Muhammad's life is written by Karen Armstrong, who left the Roman Catholic Church and has drawn closer to Judaism:
http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Biography-Prophet-Karen-Armstrong/dp/0062508865/sr=1-7/qid=1158345368/ref=sr_1_7/102-5413716-1875311?ie=UTF8&s=books
however mr. gabriel's book is a superior treatment of the comparative theologies.)
most evangelical Christians fail to realize that Judaism honours Islam, despite its bloody history, far more than it honours Christianity. Famous Jewish scholars, such as Maimonides, have written that Islam is a true monotheistic faith, while Christianity at best is a hybrid of monotheism and idolatry. Jews traditionally have viewed Islam as God's conquering sword, driving idolatry out of the world, which is exactly how Muhammad viewed his legacy. it is only with the creation of the modern zionist state of israel that Jews have any serious bone to pick with Islam. but on purely theological grounds Judaism has nothing but admiration for Islam.
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The only thing I understand from reading all this is that you are trying to drive a wedge between christians and jews... BTW david and solomon did not found a religion. That fact alone nullifies your entire argument. Please find a more intellegent argument before attempting to bash jews and christians. It makes islam look even more stupid than it already is...
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Is this Christian Soldier again?
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i dont need to drive a wedge between christians and jews. your talmud does it just fine, by calling Jesus a bastard, son of a whore, who is boiling in excrement for all eternity.
moslems maintain the highest standards of sexual morality. they observe a nidda separation and have the equivalent of a get and a ketubah in the event of a divorce.
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Well the talmud never said that ,but if it ever said something like that it was no doubt speaking of you . By calling the previous poster a bastard, son of a whore, who is boiling in excrement for all eternity.
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Karen Armstrong, who left the Roman Catholic Church and has drawn closer to Judaism:
kAREN ARMSTRONG IS A MOSLEM APOLIGIST
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LISTEN UP, ABDUL!
WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING ANY OF YOUR CRAP BELIEFS.
YOU'RE ENTITLED TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU CHOOSE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
YOU'RE ALSO ENTITLED TO PROSELYTIZE YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM TO ANYONE WILLING TO LISTEN.
NOTHING YOU CAN SAY TO US CAN CHANGE OUR AGENDA.
ON THE CONTRARY....WE'LL PUT UP WITH YOUR INSANE JABBERING & INTIMIDATION UP TO A CERTAIN POINT; AND THAT IS THE POINT THAT ALL OF THE MOHAMMEDAN MADMEN WORLDWIDE ARE FOUND CURRENTLY.
WE WILL BOTH INCARCERATE YOU, DEPORT YOU, (AND IF NECESSARY, DISPATCH YOU AND ALL THE REST LIKE YOU STRAIGHT TO HELL).
DO US ALL A HUGE FAVOR: LEAVE THE CIVILIZED WEST NOW, AND RETURN HOME WHERE YOU BELONG.
WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE BECAUSE YOU'RE AN "OLD WORLD" SAVAGE INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL THOUGHT.
NOTHING PERSONAL....JUST GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY....NOW!
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Intimidation LOL he's not intimidating
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Mohammedan moron states:
"first let me state my foundational belief: that Islam is the spiritual offshoot of Judaism's rejection of Christ. as you probably know, the approximately 50% of the Jewish nation who rejected Christ did so because He did not fit their image of a conquering Davidic King."
This is an example of the kind of idiocy and flawed logic that one must possess in order to be a Muslim.
Islam's spirituality is based on Jadaism's rejection of Christ ?
Jews rejected Christ because he didn't fit the image of a conquering king ?
You're entitled to your absurd and corrupt foundational belief(s).
You're even entitled to consider the mass murderer, pedophile, terrorist, liar, thief Mohammed a prophet.
However, in the civilized world you're not entitled to emulate the scumbag Mohammed, nor are you entitled to try to impose his twisted, perverted, barbaric 'religion' on righteous, civilized people.
Islam must be eradicated because Muslims insist on doing just this.
Allahu Crackwhore !
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WOW! What incredible, amazing, undefinable ignorance! We really need to stop reading this guy's posts. I think I just lost several brain cells... It could be contageous!
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the relationship between christianity and judaism is rather odd....you appear to support each other but seem to both have vengances when it comes to belief......
Christians do believe that the israelis will fail near the coming of the end of the world...and then the palestinians will rise-marzutra
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Firstly SARA PLEASE READ SOME FACTUALLY CORRECT BOOKS: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PALESTINIAN, ESPECIALLY AN ARAB MOSLEM!
YahuwAllah, I think you have been reading too much "politically correct" history and not factually correct history. What you had written was ineptness that one would expect from Noam Chomsky or Ward Churchill. Sad that you got sucked in to believing such rubbish. The lsraelite liberation of the promised land is not even comparable to that child molesting rapist mass murdering sand schvartza Mohammed. Please give your head a shake before you start typing. I hope to read some educated and readings which show some electrons actually working inside ones head....
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i dont need to drive a wedge between christians and jews. your talmud does it just fine, by calling Jesus a bastard, son of a whore, who is boiling in excrement for all eternity.
moslems maintain the highest standards of sexual morality. they observe a nidda separation and have the equivalent of a get and a ketubah in the event of a divorce.
JESUS IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE TALMUD.....nice try. Now you can get back onto your camel and ride back to the sand of the Yeman... Your ignorance is actually quite entertaining...
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Lol, I've heard that jesus talmud thing to I was looking for some articles about it and found this
The Talmud and "Yeshu"
Main article: Yeshu
The name Yeshu (alt: Jeshu, Yeishu, Heb: יש"ו) appears in various works of classical Jewish rabbinic literature including the Babylonian Talmud (redacted roughly before 600 CE) and the classical midrash literature written between 200 CE and 700 CE. Scholars have debated the meaning of the name, which has been used as an acronym for the Hebrew expression yemach shemo vezichro ("May his name and memory be obliterated.") The word is similar to, and may be a wordplay on, Yeshua, believed by many to be the original Aramaic or Hebrew name of Jesus. Due to this fact, along with the occurrence in several manuscripts of the Babylonian Talmud of the appellation Ha-Notzri, meaning the nazarene, and some similarities between the stories of the two figures, some or many of the references to Yeshu have been traditionally understood to refer to the Jesus of Christianity. Conversely, others have criticized this view, [18] citing discrepancies between events mentioned in association with Yeshu and the time of Jesus' life, [19] and differences between accounts of the deaths of Yeshu and Jesus. [20]
In all cases of its use, the references are to individuals who (whether real or not) are associated with acts or behaviour that are seen as leading Jews away from Judaism to minuth (a term usually translated as "heresy" or "apostasy"). Therefore, whether Yeshu equates with "Jesus" has historically been a delicate question, as "Yeshu" is portrayed in a negative light, and negative portrayals of Jesus in Jewish literature might incite, or be used as an excuse for, anti-semitism among some Christians.
Some argue that there is no relationship between Yeshu and the historical Jesus; some argue that Yeshu refers to the historical Jesus; some argue that Yeshu is a literary device used by Rabbis to comment on their relationship to and with early Christians.
[edit] Examples
The primary references to Yeshu are found in uncensored texts of the Babylonian Talmud and the Tosefta. (In 1554 the Vatican issued a papal bull censoring the Talmud and other Jewish texts, resulting in the removal of references to Yeshu). No known manuscript of the Jerusalem Talmud makes mention of the name although one translation (Herford) has added it to Avodah Zarah 2:2 to align it with similar text of Chullin 2:22 in the Tosefta. All later usages of the term Yeshu are derived from these primary references. In the Munich (1342 CE), Paris, and Jewish Theological Seminary manuscripts of the Talmud, the appellation Ha-Notzri is added to the last mention of Yeshu in Sanhedrin 107b and Sotah 47a as well as to the occurrences in Sanhedrin 43a, Sanhedrin 103a, Berachot 17b and Avodah Zarah 16b-17a. Student [1], Zindler and McKinsey [2] note that Ha-Notzri is not found in other early pre-censorship partial manuscripts (the Florence, Hamburg and Karlsruhe) where these cover the passages in question.
Although Notzri does not appear in the Tosefta, by the time the Babylonian Talmud was produced, Notzri had become the standard Hebrew word for Christian and Yeshu Ha-Notzri had become the conventional rendition of "Jesus the Nazarene" in Hebrew. For example, by 1180 CE the term Yeshu Ha-Notzri can be found in the Maimonides' Mishneh Torah (Hilchos Melachim 11:4, uncensored version). Although the word Ha-Notzri literally means the nezarene (the one who was born in Nazareth), Maimonides' reference is clearly intended to indicate Jesus.
To explain the dearth of references to Jesus in the Talmud, it has been argued that
The Talmud was subject to censorship. During the medieval period in Europe, Jewish texts were often placed on the Index of Forbidden Books and passages deemed insulting to the Church were expurgated as of 1264 (The entire Talmud was placed on the Index by Pope Paul IV in 1559).
Although restoring these passages still produces only a few mentions of Yeshu, the Mishnah, which forms the skeleton of the Talmud, was written at a time when Christianity was first emerging. The Christians were just one, apparently usual, sect with which the authors contended (others included Sadducees, Samaritans, and Gnostics).
The final redaction of the Talmud, the Babylonian Talmud was created in Babylonia, where Christianity did not have the same impact as it did in the Mediterranean Basin. As such, it was not perceived of as a particularly noticeable threat.
Although it is generally comprehensive, the Talmud is also prone to instances of self-censorship, particularly in response to controversial Jewish factionalism and the fear of anti-Semitic reaction (e.g. Hanukkah is only mentioned in passing in the Talmud, possibly for these reasons).
The Talmud may mention Jesus and Christianity in coded terms, such as min (מין, sometimes translated "apostate" or "heretic"), though this term refers to various sectarian groups. In terms of labeling Christians as minim it is important to note the adage of Rav Nahman in the name of Rava bar Avuha in Tractate Chullin 13b: There are no minim among the gentiles, i.e., the appellation could only be applied to converts from Judaism.
The Talmud was essentially the writing down of the basics of the Oral Law - despite its great size, it is still a very condensed form compared to the knowledge that existed originally, therefore, due to the limited space, only the necessities were discussed that might otherwise be forgotten.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus
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More Muslim Liars .. Hey Mohammeden give it up your cult has been exposed by your Infidel masters. They can lie as much as they want but thats all they do, lie, promote death and destruction. And calling out the jihad to the "Kafir". And as far as Jesus goes don't play your game I am a Catholic and have my strong beliefs about Jesus.. Jesus didn't say "Chop peoples heads off for G-D". He didn't go after little girls and he did not go on a bloody rampage.
You got that Mahmoud???????
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Azrom you are correct the name Yeshu is mentioned but not the same individual as Jesus of the Christian New Testament due to the fact that the timing is not even remotely similar, so no Jesus is not mentioned within the Talmud. I've heard nazi people read "quotes" from the "Talmud" about Jesus and much molested debauchery as "Talmudic" literature. You probably know more about Judaism than I but I know that if anyone mentions anything that is not mentioned within the Tanach/Torah it will not be in the Talmud... So the best way that defute any of this so-called Talmudic quotes is if it is not mentioned in the Bible OT than it won't be mentioned in the Talmud.
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Yup, I have seen alot of those talmub articles online that lie about what they say about jesus, they also pass out fliers with their lies on college campuses. >:(
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no offense to our richeous christian posters but yeshu stands for" yemach shemo izechrono"
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JESUS IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE TALMUD.....nice try.
Yeah. I'm an agnostic gentile and I know that. The Talmud is a commentary on the Torah ('Tanach') in which Jesus is never mentioned, obviously.
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You are exactly correct Scriabin, but sadly all too many Christians and other unlearned peoples accept the anti-Semitic propaganda at face value without even considering that it might be just that "propaganda".
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This person doesn't seem to have any idea what on earth he is talking about.
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He has probably never even read one verse of the bible. We should rename him the propogandamatic because he just spouts propaganda constantly...
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Some good videos: http://www.yirmeyahureview.com/videos.htm enjoy...
Thats a leftist site
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Actually, I was looking at some of the right wing videos: "The Clinton Chronicles", "The Capitalist Conspiracy" and "Money Masters: The Federal Reserve" which are very good and from the Conservative right as well articles like: "Then Secretary of State Albright says that the deaths of half a million children in Iraq as a result of sanctions is "worth it."", "Then National Security Advisor Rice says she knows nothing about the reports of $100,000 being transferred to the 9/11 terrorists from Pakistan's ISI". I saw a number of right wing things on here this is why I posted it. Now looking at it further you are very correct it has some radical leftist garbage as well. Thanks for informing me. I'm removing it now...
:)
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Here is the superior virtue of Mohammed, piss be upon him. ;D ;D ;D (don't click if you get offended by evil lego perversion)
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p134/jdl4ever_2007/legoMoAisha.jpg
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Re: "...what exactly do you mean about the federal reserve?..."
Under the U.S. Constitution there is to be no such entity; the founding Fathers warned what a central bank would do to the American people.
The 16th Amendment was never properly ratified.
Today, wealth has been replaced with debt.
In fact, one is considered much less a citizen by not being in debt at all times.
An argument can be made that the Fed has contributed to a degree of stability to the swings of the economy, but at the expense of Federal tyranny in the guise of the Federal Income Tax (another outrage clearly outlawed by the U.S. Constitution).
The use of the IRS as a tool of an out of control government in the persecution of dissidents and/or political opponents is proof that the founding Fathers knew exactly why income taxation to "feed" a central bank system produced never-ending debt and tyranny.
In addition, Rabbi Meir Kahane himself was an outspoken opponent of the Federal Reserve, fiat cash, and debt replacing the gold standard; all for the exact reasons.
Rabbi Kahane claimed that the result of this misguided economic scheme would result in a total economic meltdown of the U.S. economy; with the Jews once again being made the scapegoat.
Re: "...i hope you dont buy into the lies of aaron russo (another jewish traitor)..."
I fail to understand the reasoning in this statement.
Presuming the Aaron Russo in question is the one and the same video producer who also fronts for Jews For The Preservation Of Firearm Ownership, I find Mr. Russo to be anything but a traitor; either to Jews or to the U.S.A .... if I am incorrect in my summation of Mr. Russo's character, please do enlighten me.
Re: "...russo cant prove that warberg, rothschild, rauchenfelder, etc etc are jews. i mean they have nothing to do with judaism, even if they give lots of money to israel. we will take money from anyone, whatever his motive, even hitler. since tzeddakah saves from mavet..."
Perhaps Russo can't prove it, but they are all definitely either Jews or of Jewish descent.
If memory serves me I believe Warberg converted to Christianity; therefore always mentioned as "a Jew who converted" in the press.
I for one will not accept "money from anyone...even Hitler...".
In fact, the State Of Israel is in the dilemma it finds itself today as a result of a "welfare dependency" mentality.
It's a simple fact of human nature that whoever gives you money has the right to direct your actions and thoughts....this results in a perverse symbiotic relationship of a master who gives to feel superior, and a parasitic underling who both eventually becomes completely unable to survive on their own, and also simultaneously seethes with resentment at being told what to do and how they are to do it.
Re: "...if hitler had carried through on his promises to the zionists and helped jews come to palestine and break the british stranglehold, he would have been a great hero to jewish history...
I studied daily for ten continuous years every historical and biographical work on the origins, the rise, and the fall of the Third Reich.
My research included reading every single speech ever given by Adolph Hitler, as well as reading interviews with those closest to his inner circle.
Nowhere have I found documented that Hitler had any plans (be they promises, or merely hear-say anecdotal evidence) for the Jews of Europe other than their deportion to the Isle Of Madagascar, and the confiscation of all Jewish property and wealth.
This plan he soon changed over to outright genocide in his "Final Solution".
I therefore challenge the poster to document his/her assertion that Hitler in any way, shape, or form, was in favor of assisting the Zionist Movement or any other individual or collective Jews.
I maintain that in fact the exact opposite is true; Hitler promised to destroy "International Jewry" permanently; and he included the United States in his plans.
He always referred to the U.S. as "a niggerized nation" (actual quote from one of his speeches) under the influence of "the Jewish-Bolshevik Conspiracy".
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The Federal Reserve System in the United States to this day is un-constitutional. If one reads the Constitution they will find that the founding fathers gave the control over the right to print money and control the economic/financial supply of monies was to the Government and not a privately owned consortium. The Federal Reserve is a quite ingenius fraud to say the least. Well thought out and very much unconstitutional. Canada is an example of a centralized Federal system which is wholely owned and operated under stricked rules by our Federal Government. Actually, if you study the business cycles you will find that the Federal Reserve was largely the root the largest of all depressions. When your government needs money it takes out a loan from this private bank, Federal Reserve, on which the tax payer foots the bill for the interest on the trillions in debt not to mention the continual declining value of the US dollar.
The "Jews" you mentioned might very well be "Jewish" under halacha but, as you say, they do not practice Judaism nor care for Judaism. These people are globalists and ultra-capitalists. The Bilderberg Group is a very good example and the elite of the CFR/Trilateral Commission. They are the "Jewish" versions of the "Christian" David Rockefellers, Carnagies and Henry Fords.
Actually, you make a good point Massah. I am in the middle of reading Edwin Black's "The Transfer Agreement". Cohanechai, I do not know what you have read to allow you to come to the conclusions as you did. I certainly hope that you hadn't learned that in school, although I wouldn't be surprized if you had. Adolf Hitler held as early as 1921, two years before his bear hall failed putsch, open beliefs about ridding Germany of its Jews. Mein Kempf, although horribly bouring read too furthered this. I agree with Massuh that Adolf Hitler always wanted to rid the world of Jews. I have read a few books on Nazism's connections with Theosophy (New Age) and other Gnostic paganisms which teach this strain that the Jews are a left over race and holding the World back from entering its age of Aquarius, Knowledge or Enlightenment. This is where Hitler, through Alfred Rosenberg of the Thule Society, combined Socialism-Nationalism (although not in practice)-Racial/Aryan Gnosticism.
Now it is well known that the Nazis did make a pact with the Labor Zionists, Sam Cohen and the fellow that was murdered on the Tel Aviv Beach by 2 Arabs, of which the Revisionists where openly blamed through immense propaganda from Gurion's Mapai, to transfer Jews to "Palestine". The fact of the matter is the Labor didn't want ALL of Germany's/Europe's Jews just those that would turn "Palestine" into a "Jewish" Socialist "Utopia". Hitler, from what I have read, only went through with this to be rid of the Jews and to attain badly needed foreign currency to rearm Germany and for an economically collapsing Germany. Hitler had full intention of vanquishing all of the Jews, to which he made a pact with Hajj Amin El Husseini.
If I'm wrong Massuh feel free to correct me. I feel, Adolf Hitler had full intentions of committing the Holocaust either through the means he did or at a later date when Germany and Nazism rained as a "World Religion".
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Re: "...it is well known that the Nazis did make a pact with the Labor Zionists, Sam Cohen and the fellow that was murdered on the Tel Aviv Beach by 2 Arabs, of which the Revisionists where openly blamed through immense propaganda from Gurion's Mapai, to transfer Jews to "Palestine"..."
I am aware of the Zionists' attempted negotiations with the Reich, but never did I find any documentation that Der Fuhrer himself was in any way disposed to either help them or promise them anything. I read that Eichmann landed in Haifa to try to cut some kind of deal with the nutcases living there, etc... . If anything, Hitler agreed with his contemporary Henry Ford that the idea of a Zionist State was ludicrous, and was intent on vanquishing the British Empire, of which British Mandate Palestine was a part.
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"Let them (the Jews) look for his human rights where he belongs: in his own state of Palestine" - Adolf Hitler, April 1920. Pg 172 "The Transfer Agreement"- Edwin Black. Now on that same page Adolf Hitler also stated: "The establishment of a Zionist State is nothing but a comedy."
So far from what I gather, there were agreements between the Labor Zionists in Israel, Britain and America to transfer Jews, through a cashless system of German exports to Palestine to be used and resold through Sam Cohen's company Hanotaiah. Apparently, there were Jews that did emmigrate from Germany through this system.
You are correct that Hitler himself did not have anything in his own writing from what I gather Hitler always worked through his lackys like Hjalmar Schect, Hortenstein and Wolff. There were two Jews competing for the "transfer" agreement to trade Jews for German products and supply the funding to those emmigrating Jews to satisfy the British entrance requirements of 1000pounds. Sam Cohen and Chaim Arlosoroff were the leading peoples working through various Zionist organizations, The American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, Bnai Brith and others: The Anglo-Jewish Committee, The Board of Deputees of British Jews and the JFC.
It is a very interesting book to say the least. It lends validity to "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht. Now earlier in the book Black makes it clear with quotes by Weismann and others that the Labor Zionists and this "Transfer" plan was not to be for the masses of Jews in German, or Europe for that matter, but only the young strong workers, the wealthy and the Socialists/Leftist for the purpose of financing and building their "Jewish" Utopia in Zion. I'm only on page 212 but enjoying it because it tells the history of the Third Reich in the early years 1933-35 from a Jewish perspective which is often overlooked in books by Speer, Shirer or Toland.
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You make some interesting points. I wish to tell you I used to listen to Chamish but found that he, like Tesla has lost it mentally and has become delusional. Giants, UFO's and the like. I listened to him speak once about UFO's over Israel. You and I both know that the IAF patrols the skies over Israel 24-7. Should his statements hold any validity those "UFOs" would have entered Israeli airspace and been taken out either by an IAF F-16 or a remote ground to air defense missile battery.
I admit that he does uncover some very interesting facts but one also has to look further. He had made a very good case in "Who Murdered Yitzak Rabin". Was it true, I don't know. Knowing political, social and moral debasement today, Chamish may well have been correct.
You are 100% correct about an agreement with the Nazis and the Labor Zionists. Zionism is not Jewish National Socialism, well perhaps Labor Zionism. Zionism (Religious Zionism) of Rav. Kahane stems from HaShem and Abraham in the book of Genesis. Right Wing/Jabbotinsky Zionism was Jewish Nationalism. Jabbotinsky, Begin and Shamir were hardened anti-Socialist activists.
You might wish to read a very informative book by Antony Sutton "Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler" or "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution." The Versilles treaty was not a "Jewish" thing. This is the myth that Hitler promulgated for "The stab in the back" scape goat reasoning for Germany's defeat. Hitler forgot the fact that the Allied forces cut off all supply routs and choked Germany into submission. Hitler's hatred, combined with many of the "conspiracy" theorists hatred of the Jews brings forth all these, blame the Jews.
I have no doubt that "Jews" were involved in the financial aspect undermining Germany in the Second World War but too there were many more "Christians".
I agree with you in part but feel that the actualities lay in the with partial facts of your pointed statements and the over all position of Massah. You have very good points but I feel that some are molestations of the far "delusional" Right and Left Wing where most of the "International Jew" crap seems to come from. Hey, I know there is a ruling elite class. I know there is a plan for the One World Government: CFR: Trilateral: EU: UN: Bilderbergs: Pugwash Group: Black Nobility: Club of Rome: Rosicrucians, Templars, Hell Fire Club, Illuminati and the rest. They all did and do still exist.... I understand what you are saying... ;)
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Yes you make a very good point. One can look at the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" as holding some validity. When published it was a known fact that Jacob Schiff financed Japanese against Tzarist Russia in 1904-'05. Now some argue that he did this to teach the Tzar a lesson and stop the years of Russian Pogroms on defenseless Jews. One step further is the Oppenheim, Warberg and Rothschild families which financed Wars in Europe and massive international "imperialistic" ventures on behalf of Belguim, Germany, England, America, Holland, France etc.. One can argue that they were aiding the desires of the respective monarchies at the time to expand their empires, while others lay fiath to their manipulation of them. Could well be both I should think since looking at the Bilderbergs, elitists of the CFR, Round Table, Skull & Bones, Illuminati, Vatican, Council of Rome etc. still occur to this day. Some say that Francis Bacon was actually behind Shakespere's works to subvert socialism and other gnostic illogic because Bacon was an intellectual well scholored in many subjects while one can argue the exact opposite about Shakespere. You are 100% correct in your opinions, I should just add abit of caution. It all sounds very plausable but can enter into the areas of disinformation, myths displayed as "facts" and guided assertians which the anti-semites use to blame the Jew. "When the cat and dog fight, the cat usually dies.....and the World blames the Jew."
The fact concerning Hitler is he, specifically, held his beliefs long before he came to power. Perhaps starting around 1918-19 with Rosenberg and The Order of the Teutons/Thule Society. His family Dr. was a Jew which he had fond memories of, until his mother passed which changed with his new found Germanic Paganism.....so I have read. The Jews have always been held with suspician especially during the times when the Catholic Church outlawed usery for the Christians in 1179 resulting in excommunication from the Church or death. The Jew started to become wealthy and further dispised...which you well know as most informed Jews do.
Yes, you are correct about elitist Jews generating hatred on us, and one could go further in that they themselves hate us due to them being only "Jewish" by birth, globalists: elite Capitalists: Communists and may well also dabble in the deprave dark teachings of their societies, ex. Bush and the Skull and Bones. You are very correct in your questions. Have you read Rabbi Antelman's "To Eliminate the Opiate"? It is a fascinating work that I feel you will very much enjoy. It deals with exactly this subject.
Your very last question is something that I am particularly well read it. Elitest "Jews" very much get along with Elitist "Christians" better than the low people. This is the result of their ultimate quest: Power. This is the goal of Socialism. These elitiest advocate Socialism by promoting, funding and organizing these Communist, Socialist front groups using minorities, women and all of their socialist dogma "Freedom", "Human Rights" etc. to attain what they desire most; One World Government with their holding all the chips in their various controlled monopolies. "The Naked Capitalist"-Skousen and Sutton's works display this fact well. The fact that the elite in America brought the Bolsheviks and Hitler to power are behind all the most deviousness working in politics, economics and foreign policy today. I strongly suggest Antelman's work as well "Trilaterals over America"- Sutton. From a purely Leftist, but very interesting is "Tragedy and Hope" Carroll Quigley if you hadn't read these already.
You are very correct in your questions. Because they are Jews at all, they will attract more notice. A Jewish Billionaire will attract more attention than Oprah Winfry...solely because he is a Jew and 2000 years of ant-semitic lore behind him. One must never forget that there are far more non-Jews in this globalist NWO venture, but the Jew stands out because he is, and will always be seen as a Jew. Remember most anti-semites blame Jews for Communism, which is simply not the case and further literally all of the Jews where purged from any and all places of influence in Soviet Russia by Stalin's "Great Purges". Good questions....and conversations.. keeps us on our mental toes... good job! ;)
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According to Jewish Law Henry Kissenger is no longer a Jew. Supreme Rabbinic Court of America (SRCA), was involved in several landmark events such as the excommunication of Henry Kissinger in 1976, the public condemnation of the Marxist New Jewish Agenda and the excommunication of its members in 1982. Kissenger has long been a lacky of the Globalist Bilderberg group and elitists which intend to rule the One World government. He is an appalling shame.
It is very true that Wall St. financed the Bolshevik Revolution, with aid from European powers as well to take Russia out of the War. As a matter of fact Woodrow Wilson was directly involved in getting Lennin out of jail her in Canada. One must never forget that these people are only Jewish by birth but would be considered Amalek today under Torah Law. One must also not forget that non-Jewish figures were perhaps more responsible than the Jews for the Bolshevik Revolution and many other Socialistic coups before and since. J.P. Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller, Henry Ford and many of their family/children, Owen Lattimore, E.M.House, Alger Hiss, Carter, Clinton and many many others.
Yes these "Jews" are judenrot. Many turned to Communism solely to escape from Tzarist pogroms, Christian Anti-Semitism, Lutheran "reforms", Catholic forced conversions and all sorts of other diabolical crimes. I'm not saying that it was right but their belief after generations of massacres and pogroms for being Jews and keeping Judaism, having no religion is much better than being massacred. Now Marx himself born a Jew but converted to Christianity......Which is perfectly ok to me because you can have him.... :)
I do know that during the Great Purges there was not one Jew left in the entire political system at any real capacity up until around 1954-57. I'd think by looking at the Jewish Russian Oil Billionaire today in prison, they still don't have much trust in "Jews".
These Socialist Judenrot scum do make it bad for the righteous Jews becuase they too look on righteous Jews as lower "classes" but they fail to see their Communist "Christian" friends still see them as "Jewish" Communists and not just communists...if you know what I'm getting at. Noam Chomsky is considered a Jew, Marx is always considered a Jew... I guess it is very similar to some dope selling rapist murdering criminal shvartza or degenerate wigger walking down the road wearing a cross. Is he Christian? He thinks he is...
Yes there are Judenrot Bolshevik scum but there are far more "Christian" Communist scum. The fact that they are Jews makes them more attractive to blame (not that they shouldn't be).....
A collection of books you might like:
"Wall St. and the Rise of Hitler"-Antony Sutton:
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/index.html
"Wall St. and the Bolshevik Revolution"- Antony Sutton:
http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-bolshevik-rev.html
"Americas Secret Establishment"- Antony Sutton:
http://www.lulu.com/content/387984
"Trilaterals Over America"- Antony Sutton
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2006/10/119694.pdf
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Yeah, I never understood why they have to point out that they are jews? There were a ton of christian commies and liberals and still are just like there are jewish commies and libs. Btw, I saw on some anti zionist site, they claim the torah does not allow a jewish state, is there any truth to this?
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http://www.conspiracypenpal.com/columns/mlk2.htm 8)
^ I bought that guys book(very anti-semetic). Thanks for the info about zionists and everything, alot of names there I don't know about. Jewish history is very complex
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Well I guess if you consider he does not like liberal leftist jews then I guess i would be an anti-semite because I dont like any type of liberal commies. He is also to pro arab for me. But his book does have alot of good stuff about blacks and hispanics and other racial stuff.
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i dont like your racism.
moses married a black woman, through whom his children passed on black genes to the rest of israel.
joseph married an egyptian woman, also descended from the black hamites, and his children menasheh and efraim, were the most numerically prolific of all the israelite tribes.
there are many ethiopian jews who are black in israel today.
racists are losers who console themselves by putting down others.
I don't like the racism on this forum either but mostly they are making fun of the low life blacks, not the righteous ones. Rashi says that when the bible says moses wife was black, it is not literal. It means she was beautiful and it used black as to not give her the evil eye. But the bible still says that she was black so let the other posters have some fun with this one. :D Egyptions are also not black, in fact they were white. Look at the egyptions monuments, drawings and statues in the tombs. There were probably some black jews though in ancient Israel since all converts are accepted and are equal regardless of race.
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I should think that you might like the videos "Why Be Jewish" with Rav. Kahane or many of his lectures because he deals with this exact issue. Rav. Kahane’s belief is that the covenant between HaShem and Abraham towards all the Land of Canaan in Gen., then again to Isaac, then to Jacob confirms HaShems demand of a Jewish State in the Land of Aretz Israel. This is too passed again in Exodus until the end of the Torah through Moses and Joshua. The Talmud is not a holy book. HaShem recognizes righteous deeds over faith as too displayed both the Torah and the Talmud: “I rather they (the Jews) abandon Me and keep MY Laws”. “for through keeping My Laws they (the Jews) will return to me.” The deed to liberate Aretz and make it into a Jewish State would be like placing a cherry on top of a sundae.
Thank you Yacov, I didn’t even look at the title of this thread. This is perhaps why all these twisted arguments started in the first place. Knowing that both Communism and Nazism were developed through lies, deceit and violence…I’d not take anything written by them nor their positions, which are based on Hegelian Dialectics (Dialectical Materialism), seriously.
Yes, as I had stated before, many Jews turned to Communism due to its beliefs that ALL religions are to be vanquished. The fact that the Jew was the brunt of pogroms and what not at the hands of indoctrinated Christians by their power thirsty rulers (Kings or Religious figures: verious Popes and Luther for examples) the choice seems a clear one. The fact that most Jews are well knowledged about Christianity the reverse cannot be said about the vast majority of Christians. In the end all of the Jews that were active politically and religiously were purged and tossed into the Gulags, deported or exterminated at the hands of the Communists during Stalin’s reign. People seem to forget about the numerous show trials and the so-called "Dr.'s Plot". The fact is if one is a Socialist/Commie/Humanist one cannot be a Jew nor a Christian for that matter. As Yahuda HaMaccabee liberated Zion from the Hellenists (many judenrot) they are Amalek and not Jews.
I feel that we should not not relay on someones "Talmudic" statements because of A. Most if not all of us are not scholors in Talmudic teachings and for the lay person, like me, a "quote" from the "Talmud" might not be the exact quote but a molestation, like the other individual who "quoted" "Jesus being a bastard" being in the Talmud. The fact that the Christian Jesus is not even mentioned in the entire Talmud, not Jerusalem nor Babylonian gives reason that there are misquotes used by the ignorant or anti-semite as a base for attacking and deceit. Which I personally do not tolerate. I hope you all understand and are in agreement. If my rabbi was here to refute or explain thoroughly the reasoning or the specific passage that would wholely be another issue...
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I agree with Yakov. The Talmud is holy.
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Shalom Yacov, you are 100% correct and I am 100% incorrect. Thank you for assisting me... I have asked the Rabbi and he says all three are Holy but the Jerusalem Talmud was earlier and over ruled by the Babylonian Talmud. Thanks brother.. ;)
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after 1948 and especially 1967, which seemed like a miraculous victory, many orthodox jews grudgingly accepted the legitamacy of zionism. the Naturei karta of today are the holdouts from that period. see the book Em HaBanim Samaycha to read about how former anti zionist jews turned around after 1948.
CohenChai, Eim Habanim Semeicha was written during the Holocaust, the author Rav Teichtal, came to the realization that he had never actually analyzed the Torah position of Eretz Yisrael but had blindly followed the Satmar Rav because of the Satmar Rav's greatness. So Rav Teichtal went through every Torah source regarding Eretz Yisrael and came to the conclusion that Zionism, even secular Zionism was the correct path. I recommened every Jew read this amazing Sefer. No one but Rav Teichtal has gone into the depth of the Torah to find out how we should behave with Eretz Yisrael except this Rav.
Also, you are mistaken that almost all of Yerushalayim opposed Rav Kook that is anti-Zionist revisionist history, the truth is almost no one outside of Yerushalyim opposed Rav Kook, even in the city he had at least a large minority and possibly a majority of Orthodox Jews in his camp.
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I thought Jabotinsky, Raziel, Stern, Begin and Shamir (in their younger years) were Ravisionist Zionists? Was not Ravisionism equivalent to Secular Jewish Nationalism which wanted to Liberate all of "Palestine" for the Jewish homeland based on Free Enterprise economy? I though Revisionism was very anti-Socialism and therefore anti-Labor Zionism?
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Marzutra, you are correct
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The original post here is beyond moronic. I almost think this is a joke thread made for our amusement.
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Yes, perhaps Yacov or one of the other administrators will remove this thread and perhaps others like it..
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Cohan, all jews are equal whatever there "race" anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant of Torah. Ethiopian Jews are just as Jewish as any other Jew. Mind you some Ethiopians only pretended to be Jewish to go to Israel but all truly Jewish Ethiopians are completely Jewish. I dont know if you know this but it was Rabbi Kahane who was one of the first to push for a mass immigration of Ethiopian Jews.
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As I have said on this site before I am indifferent to blacks as a "race", I believe there are good black individuals and bad black individuals. The same goes for Whites or any other "race". It happens to be Blacks in the US are overwhelmingly pro-Arab according to every poll and study to date, so many people feel that since most of this group is hostile to the Jews we should be hostile to all blacks. On the other hand most caucasions in the US are pro-Israel or pro-Jewish.
Black Christian churches as a group are generally very close to Farakkan and are vehemently anti-Jewish, most "White" Churches, in particular Evangelicals, are very pro-Israel, hence the reaction on this forum. As I have said before I am indiffrent to the concept of "race".