General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaim Ben Pesach on January 19, 2020, 11:45:10 AM
Title: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Chaim Ben Pesach on January 19, 2020, 11:45:10 AM
בס”ד
Please promote this important video everywhere possible.
The program is 31 minutes this week.
Video version on BitChute:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/LOjalzqh3svQ
Usual audio format:
For those who would like to download the file for their MP3 players or iPods, the link is provided below: http://www.jtf.org/ask/2020-01-19.mp3
Please join and comment on our great news sites:
In English: http://jtf.org
In Hebrew: http://hayamin.org
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 19, 2020, 03:31:13 PM
When Arab Gentiles accept the Seven Noahide Commandments, they will prove their loyalty to Israel.
Are you sure that Yigal Amir was not guilty? Are you talking about guilt in the eyes of Heaven or guilt before a court of law? According to my Torah sources, Amir is guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 19, 2020, 05:57:31 PM
When Arab Gentiles accept the Seven Noahide Commandments, they will prove their loyalty to Israel.
Are you sure that Yigal Amir was not guilty? Are you talking about guilt in the eyes of Heaven or guilt before a court of law? According to my Torah sources, Amir is guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter.
huh?
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Yehudayaakov on January 19, 2020, 06:22:47 PM
When Arab Gentiles accept the Seven Noahide Commandments, they will prove their loyalty to Israel.
Are you sure that Yigal Amir was not guilty? Are you talking about guilt in the eyes of Heaven or guilt before a court of law? According to my Torah sources, Amir is guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter.
He is punished for his stupidity which led to such a situation in which Israel is being judged every day by the media court. Of course he deserves to be compensated for the injustice done to him as well as all Jews who have been jailed unlawfully.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: ChabadKahanist on January 19, 2020, 06:32:04 PM
I believe that Ben Gvir & his crowd are being punished by Hashem for refusing to help fellow Jews who were having Aliyah problems while Ben Ari was in the Knesset with National Union & Ben Gvir & Marzel were his parliamentary aids. It took me almost 15 years & 50 Thousand NIS for a lawyer which I had to beg & borrow from relatives to finally make my Aliyah reality & Chaim is still having problems getting in!!! Now that I can finally vote I won't vote for these clowns but vote for either UTJ like the last time or the party of Yigal Amir's wife!!!! Even though I am now a full fledged Israeli citizen I still have a vendetta against Ben Gvir,Ben Ari & Marzel!!!! Until they apologize to all those Jews that they refused to help & promise to help those Jews who are still having such problems if they get in eventually Hashem will continue to punish them by not letting them pass the threshold as well as go through future such embarrassments like this most recent one!!!!
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 19, 2020, 06:58:32 PM
He is punished for his stupidity which led to such a situation in which Israel is being judged every day by the media court. Of course he deserves to be compensated for the injustice done to him as well as all Jews who have been jailed unlawfully.
If a person committed homicide because another person was threatening his life or limb or severe torture, this killer has committed an offence and is a murderer and will be punished by Heaven. If you have a Torah source that refutes this, please share it.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Israel Chai on January 19, 2020, 07:49:50 PM
I can confirm Hrvatski Noahid sources. We are learning from same books. It could be that Yigal Amir repented by now for his act, only HaShem knows. He studies Torah very seriously in the prison. And HaShem, blessed be He, gave him wife.
Bear in mind that the Torah Law for Jews is more restrictive, so the punishment for a Jewish murderer is more severe. An unrepentant murderer is an absolutely wicked person. I doubt that Rabbi Kahane supported murdering Jews who disagreed with him.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Chaim Ben Pesach on January 20, 2020, 03:06:01 PM
If this is some silly game, I am not in the mood for it. I won't defend a murderer until someone convinces me he is innocent.
בס''ד
Yitzchak Rabin yimach shmo vezichro was a mass murderer of Jews. He murdered 16 Jewish heroes on the Altalena in 1948 in cold blood. Rabin as Prime Minister murdered hundreds of Jews with his Oslo policies. Furthermore, his treasonous policies endangered Israel's very survival.
Authentic Torah Judaism is not like Christianity or modern Western humanism. Judaism has din rodef (the law regarding a pursuer of Jewish blood).
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 20, 2020, 04:10:49 PM
If you make a coherent statement, we might have a discussion.
My comment was a question, and a very coherent one. "Huh?" means I don't understand what you just wrote.
You cited him as "guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter" according to your sources. I'm asking you to explain this comment and cite your sources or basis on it because I didn't understand what you meant by the formulation you used. No need to get butthurt.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 20, 2020, 04:13:04 PM
If a person committed homicide because another person was threatening his life or limb or severe torture, this killer has committed an offence and is a murderer
That's not what Judaism teaches. There is din rodef, and about someone trying to kill, the Talmud says rise up and kill that person first
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 20, 2020, 05:31:09 PM
Yitzchak Rabin yimach shmo vezichro was a mass murderer of Jews. He murdered 16 Jewish heroes on the Altalena in 1948 in cold blood. Rabin as Prime Minister murdered hundreds of Jews with his Oslo policies. Furthermore, his treasonous policies endangered Israel's very survival.
Authentic Torah Judaism is not like Christianity or modern Western humanism. Judaism has din rodef (the law regarding a pursuer of Jewish blood).
Chaim, your video said that Yigal Amir assassinated Rabin because a government agent incited and convinced him to do so. You didn't mention the laws of a pursuer.
I know that Judaism has the laws of a pursuer. The problem with that argument is that anyone can accuse anybody of being a pursuer. If leftist Jews believed that Rabbi Kahane's rhetoric endangered Jewish lives, would that mean that Rav Kahane is a pursuer, too?
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 20, 2020, 05:39:55 PM
My comment was a question, and a very coherent one. "Huh?" means I don't understand what you just wrote.
You cited him as "guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter" according to your sources. I'm asking you to explain this comment and cite your sources or basis on it because I didn't understand what you meant by the formulation you used. No need to get butthurt.
It means that a person who was severely pressured to commit homicide, like Amir according to Chaim, is guilty for murder in the eyes of Heaven, but a court of law does not have permission to punish him.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 20, 2020, 05:43:31 PM
That's not what Judaism teaches. There is din rodef, and about someone trying to kill, the Talmud says rise up and kill that person first
Yes it is. Chaim's original argument described a situation where Amir was severely pressured to commit homicide. His new argument about the pursuer is problematic for the reasons I stated above.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: ChabadKahanist on January 20, 2020, 10:07:51 PM
I predict a fourth round of elections!!!
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 20, 2020, 10:16:32 PM
Chaim, your video said that Yigal Amir assassinated Rabin because a government agent incited and convinced him to do so. You didn't mention the laws of a pursuer.
I know that Judaism has the laws of a pursuer. The problem with that argument is that anyone can accuse anybody of being a pursuer. If leftist Jews believed that Rabbi Kahane's rhetoric endangered Jewish lives, would that mean that Rav Kahane is a pursuer, too?
בס''ד
1. For legal reasons, I am limited in what I can say about Yigal Amir. It is illegal to directly praise or advocate assassinations. There are many things which I would love to expose in both our Hebrew and our English videos, but I am forced to restrict myself because I am a law-abiding citizen and JTF is a law-abiding organization.
2. Under the laws of state of Israel (and the United States for that matter), Amir is innocent and has been unjustly incarcerated for more than 23 years. Amir was clearly entrapped by Shabak agent Avishai Raviv. When a government agent persuades a citizen to commit an illegal act which that citizen would not have committed without government persuasion, that is the definition of entrapment. An entrapped defendant is not guilty of the offense. The government is not permitted to manufacture crimes by convincing law-abiding citizens to break the law.
3. Amir did not want to kill Yitzchak Rabin but was constantly pressured by Raviv to do so: "Be a man! If you believe that Rabin is murdering Jews and endangering Israel, then you have an obligation to get rid of him! If you don't do it, then you are guilty of spilling innocent Jewish blood and of threatening Israel's existence." After repeating these arguments numerous times, Raviv finally convinced Amir. The gun which Amir used was also given to him by Raviv.
4. As far as Torah law is concerned, for legal reasons I can only speak in general terms. I cannot address the Amir case specifically for legal reasons. But in general, what you say above is liberal Western "morality" and not Torah values. Under your rules, if someone had decided to kill Adolf Hitler in 1932, he would be a "murderer". You also argue that a Jew cannot kill someone just because they disagree with him. Oh really? Moses ordered the Levites to kill 3000 Jews during chet haegel (the golden calf sin) just because it was their opinion that we needed an intermediary to reach Hashem during prayer. On Purim, we celebrate how Mordechai and the Jews in the Persian Empire killed over 70,000 supporters of Haman because of their views. On Chanukah, we celebrate the Maccabees who killed thousands of their fellow Jews because they embraced Greek Hellenistic culture (which was quite similar to modern Western culture).
5. There is no contradiction between advocating for Amir's release as I do in the video by asserting the defense of entrapment and also pointing out that Rabin was a mass murderer who imperilled Israel's existence.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 20, 2020, 11:39:29 PM
1. For legal reasons, I am limited in what I can say about Yigal Amir. It is illegal to directly praise or advocate assassinations. There are many things which I would love to expose in both our Hebrew and our English videos, but I am forced to restrict myself because I am a law-abiding citizen and JTF is a law-abiding organization.
2. Under the laws of state of Israel (and the United States for that matter), Amir is innocent and has been unjustly incarcerated for more than 23 years. Amir was clearly entrapped by Shabak agent Avishai Raviv. When a government agent persuades a citizen to commit an illegal act which that citizen would not have committed without government persuasion, that is the definition of entrapment. An entrapped defendant is not guilty of the offense. The government is not permitted to manufacture crimes by convincing law-abiding citizens to break the law.
3. Amir did not want to kill Yitzchak Rabin but was constantly pressured by Raviv to do so: "Be a man! If you believe that Rabin is murdering Jews and endangering Israel, then you have an obligation to get rid of him! If you don't do it, then you are guilty of spilling innocent Jewish blood and of threatening Israel's existence." After repeating these arguments numerous times, Raviv finally convinced Amir. The gun which Amir used was also given to him by Raviv.
4. As far as Torah law is concerned, for legal reasons I can only speak in general terms. I cannot address the Amir case specifically for legal reasons. But in general, what you say above is liberal Western "morality" and not Torah values. Under your rules, if someone had decided to kill Adolf Hitler in 1932, he would be a "murderer". You also argue that a Jew cannot kill someone just because they disagree with him. Oh really? Moses ordered the Levites to kill 3000 Jews during chet haegel (the golden calf sin) just because it was their opinion that we needed an intermediary to reach Hashem during prayer. On Purim, we celebrate how Mordechai and the Jews in the Persian Empire killed over 70,000 supporters of Haman because of their views. On Chanukah, we celebrate the Maccabees who killed thousands of their fellow Jews because they embraced Greek Hellenistic culture (which was quite similar to modern Western culture).
5. There is no contradiction between advocating for Amir's release as I do in the video by asserting the defense of entrapment and also pointing out that Rabin was a mass murderer who imperilled Israel's existence.
1. You know better than I how much free speech you have in discussing these issues. Yet I hope you understand that I can only address your stated arguments, not the hidden ones.
2. I agree that Amir was unjustly incarcerated, but I also believe that his action was questionable at best in the eyes of Heaven.
3. Again, I agree that Amir was innocent before a court of law because he was severely pressured.
4. As Noachide confirmed, these are not my rules and we aren't discussing Hitler or the golden calf. We are discussing if Rabin's killing was justified under the law of the pursuer. If it was, that opens up a whole can of worms when it comes to Israeli politics because it means that killing your political opponents is justified as long as you show they endangered the lives of others in some way or other.
5. True, but you didn't mention the pursuer argument in the video.
According to Torah Law, it is not permissible to save someone by killing his pursuer unless this is the only way to save the victim. Even if Rabin was a pursuer, the Israeli voters could have removed him by electing a new official.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Noachide on January 21, 2020, 02:02:14 AM
Even if Rabin was a pursuer, the Israeli voters could have removed him by electing a new official.
I agree with with this.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Dr. Dan on January 21, 2020, 03:14:21 AM
We are not permitted to murder someone unless they are about to murder us first.
There are/were a lot of evil murdering leaders in this world both body and soul. We can pray for their demise. However it’s all in God’s hands in the end.
There is a time and place to be a hero but nobody today is nearly as righteous as anyone from the the tanach. Whether it was Moses, pinhas, king David, etc, we are no where near their level; we are not prophets nor judges nor kings nor etc to randomly kill or assassinate abominations (unless he’s or she is directly coming after us personally first).
Better to put your trust in God to execute His will
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Dr. Dan on January 21, 2020, 03:23:24 AM
I believe that Ben Gvir & his crowd are being punished by Hashem for refusing to help fellow Jews who were having Aliyah problems while Ben Ari was in the Knesset with National Union & Ben Gvir & Marzel were his parliamentary aids. It took me almost 15 years & 50 Thousand NIS for a lawyer which I had to beg & borrow from relatives to finally make my Aliyah reality & Chaim is still having problems getting in!!! Now that I can finally vote I won't vote for these clowns but vote for either UTJ like the last time or the party of Yigal Amir's wife!!!! Even though I am now a full fledged Israeli citizen I still have a vendetta against Ben Gvir,Ben Ari & Marzel!!!! Until they apologize to all those Jews that they refused to help & promise to help those Jews who are still having such problems if they get in eventually Hashem will continue to punish them by not letting them pass the threshold as well as go through future such embarrassments like this most recent one!!!!
At this point with no true kahanist / religious Zionist, best to support pro yeshiva haredi parties. 84% of immigrants are non Jews and to add on top of that self hating Israeli Jews and Arabs , the religious identity of Israel is going down the tubes. The anti religion Israeli parties are what could kill what supposed to be the Jewish State.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: ChabadKahanist on January 21, 2020, 04:30:03 AM
At this point with no true kahanist / religious Zionist, best to support pro yeshiva haredi parties. 84% of immigrants are non Jews and to add on top of that self hating Israeli Jews and Arabs , the religious identity of Israel is going down the tubes. The anti religion Israeli parties are what could kill what supposed to be the Jewish State.
Agreed but what else to you have to say about what I said?
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Dr. Dan on January 21, 2020, 08:01:51 AM
Agreed but what else to you have to say about what I said?
Those individuals you wrote about have major shortcomings. In my eyes they are just people with big egos. However I prefer to have them around over the secular “right”, Lieberman and the anti religious, and leftists. I don’t have high hopes for the current “kahanist”. They are very unreliable. That’s why I would rather put my energy in the Haredi parties.
I want Chaim to be permitted in Israel. But if there is no one else that will do it, I say support all religious parties so that once he is permitted and if the religious parties succeed, Chaim can succeed.
A successful Zionist has to be a religious kosher Jew.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Chaim Ben Pesach on January 21, 2020, 03:24:06 PM
בס''ד
Quote
Even if Rabin was a pursuer, the Israeli voters could have removed him by electing a new official.
What if Israeli voters did not remove him? After all, Israeli voters elected him in the first place, so there was certainly a reasonable chance that they would elect him again.
This same argument would be used against someone who would assassinate Hitler in 1932: Why not give the German people the chance to vote against him? We all know what happened to the 6 million Jews who depended on the German people to reject this madman.
Moreover, the Israeli election was scheduled to take place the next year (1996). In the meantime, Rabin was signing agreements with the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat to surrender more sacred Jewish land and was offering to surrender the Golan Heights to Nazi Syria. As a result of these treasonous policies, Jews were being murdered on a regular basis and all of Israel was placed in grave jeopardy.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 21, 2020, 04:15:23 PM
What if Israeli voters did not remove him? After all, Israeli voters elected him in the first place, so there was certainly a reasonable chance that they would elect him again.
This same argument would be used against someone who would assassinate Hitler in 1932: Why not give the German people the chance to vote against him? We all know what happened to the 6 million Jews who depended on the German people to reject this madman.
Moreover, the Israeli election was scheduled to take place the next year (1996). In the meantime, Rabin was signing agreements with the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat to surrender more sacred Jewish land and was offering to surrender the Golan Heights to Nazi Syria. As a result of these treasonous policies, Jews were being murdered on a regular basis and all of Israel was placed in grave jeopardy.
As you see, the situation is too complicated to clearly justify the application of the law of the pursuer.
If Rabin's policies endangered their lives, there is reason to believe that Israeli voters would have elected someone else.
As far as I know, Nazi Germany was a one-party state, so it was impossible to remove Hitler through elections.
In the end, Hashem will consider Amir's actions according to His true understanding of the situation.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Israel Chai on January 21, 2020, 08:53:08 PM
He had to die then right before he could cause lots of other Jews to die. Some of his blood is on the hands of Jews that supported him and thus put him in this position. Giving land to Arabs so they stop killing just Jews but not each other and everyone else. Someone who believes that is mentally retarded. It's like voting for Greta to be leader. You're going to have to kill her when she starts lighting oil execs alive in plastic, but it's your fault she's dead for voting for her.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Noachide on January 22, 2020, 03:07:34 AM
He had to die then right before he could cause lots of other Jews to die. Some of his blood is on the hands of Jews that supported him and thus put him in this position. Giving land to Arabs so they stop killing just Jews but not each other and everyone else. Someone who believes that is mentally retarded. It's like voting for Greta to be leader. You're going to have to kill her when she starts lighting oil execs alive in plastic, but it's your fault she's dead for voting for her.
I'm little more sensitive to this topic, because we had a same situation in my country when prime minister Zoran Đinđić was killed. I'm of opinion he was a good prime minister. Maybe Rabin was a bad person but I think everthing could be solved politically.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Dr. Dan on January 22, 2020, 11:47:40 AM
In the end, Hashem will consider Amir's actions according to His true understanding of the situation.
exactly!! Even if in Heaven it was against the rules for him to do that, him serving time in jail and learning Torah will undo the heavenly punishment.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Zelhar on January 22, 2020, 04:58:23 PM
Yigal Amir murdered Rabin. He is guilty in every respect.
When Arab Gentiles accept the Seven Noahide Commandments, they will prove their loyalty to Israel.
Are you sure that Yigal Amir was not guilty? Are you talking about guilt in the eyes of Heaven or guilt before a court of law? According to my Torah sources, Amir is guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on January 22, 2020, 05:39:25 PM
Yigal Amir murdered Rabin. He is guilty in every respect.
There is no objective standard of morality in your godless worldview, so how do you expect us to see your comment as anything more than your subjective opinion?
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: JudasMaccabeus on January 22, 2020, 11:42:14 PM
Yitzchak Rabin yimach shmo vezichro was a mass murderer of Jews. He murdered 16 Jewish heroes on the Altalena in 1948 in cold blood. Rabin as Prime Minister murdered hundreds of Jews with his Oslo policies. Furthermore, his treasonous policies endangered Israel's very survival.
Authentic Torah Judaism is not like Christianity or modern Western humanism. Judaism has din rodef (the law regarding a pursuer of Jewish blood).
We have the same earlier sacred books, and we do draw a distinction between personal forgiveness and mercy, and showing no mercy towards the enemies of G-D and the Nation, like the Maccabees of old. Of course distinctions need to be made, rational practical and prudent decisions, etc...
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Israel Chai on January 23, 2020, 02:15:49 AM
You don't ascribe to the position that he's innocent due to police entrapment?
I am speaking from a perspective of the law as I understand it. Even if the shabak agent Avishay Raviv incited Yigal Amir I don't think by Israeli law it means he is not guilty. He willingly committed the crime and was of sound mind. To my understanding entrapment is a situation in which for example somebody asks you can get him drugs or sex etc. and tempts with money to agree and receive money. So maybe if the situation was that Raviv asked Amir to assassinate Rabin and Amir agreed and received weapon etc. to commit the crime, at that point that may be still entrapment for conspiracy to commit murder or whatever. Once he actually committed the crime in my opinion, and I think the law's as well, he is guilty of murder. I also think the involvement of the shabak and Raviv should be fully publicly disclosed.
In my godless perspective indeed at the end of the day the law is enforced by force or threat of force and is not voluntary. We try to devise methods and means to allow society to control the legal system and rule of law to the benefits of the individual, and give the individual means to make their case and fight injustice and not be subject to whimsical enforcement etc, but it's far from perfect.
If you perceive leader X is 'like Hitler' then in your perspective maybe its justified to take him out by any means. I think "mortem omnibus tyrannis" is in the right direction in this case. But Rabin was not a tyrant. So it's just the perceived danger that he posed that might justify assassination. By that logic should rabbi Akiva have been assassinated because he lead us to a huge national disaster.
I am speaking from a perspective of the law as I understand it. Even if the shabak agent Avishay Raviv incited Yigal Amir I don't think by Israeli law it means he is not guilty. He willingly committed the crime and was of sound mind. To my understanding entrapment is a situation in which for example somebody asks you can get him drugs or sex etc. and tempts with money to agree and receive money. So maybe if the situation was that Raviv asked Amir to assassinate Rabin and Amir agreed and received weapon etc. to commit the crime, at that point that may be still entrapment for conspiracy to commit murder or whatever. Once he actually committed the crime in my opinion, and I think the law's as well, he is guilty of murder. I also think the involvement of the shabak and Raviv should be fully publicly disclosed.
In my godless perspective indeed at the end of the day the law is enforced by force or threat of force and is not voluntary. We try to devise methods and means to allow society to control the legal system and rule of law to the benefits of the individual, and give the individual means to make their case and fight injustice and not be subject to whimsical enforcement etc, but it's far from perfect.
If you perceive leader X is 'like Hitler' then in your perspective maybe its justified to take him out by any means. I think "mortem omnibus tyrannis" is in the right direction in this case. But Rabin was not a tyrant. So it's just the perceived danger that he posed that might justify assassination. By that logic should rabbi Akiva have been assassinated because he lead us to a huge national disaster.
So a cop convinces a kid to kill a cop, really impressionable young guy, gives him the gun and loads it and the kid kills the cop that the cop told him to. I'm all for it's the cop's fault, but can we at least agree we reprimand the cop? It's worse than entrapment, they ran an organization to kill him and recruited him. In cases like this, you get the patsy to snitch and give up the leader. But the leader is you the cop. If that were legal the cops could run gangs everywhere and a hundred other equally stupid things.
Title: Re: Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset
Post by: Hrvatski Noahid on September 28, 2022, 03:00:33 AM
I revisited this discussion because Chaim mentioned Yigal Amir in the newest video. I want to give the specific sources of my arguments for my own reference and for the benefit of others:
"If a person committed homicide because another person was threatening his life (or limb or severe torture), this killer has committed an offence and is a murderer and will be punished by Heaven. However, a court of law does not have permission to punish him, because he was severely pressured" (the Divine Code by Rabbi Weiner, Second Edition, p 403, citing Rambam, Laws of Kings 10:2).
"It is not permissible to save someone by killing his pursuer unless this is the only way to save the victim. If it is possible for one to save the victim without killing the pursuer - for example, by appeasing him or confusing him with words, or by wounding him, as by cutting off his hand or foot - and instead he killed the pursuer, this considered murder with liability to capital punishment" (the same, p 407, citing Rambam, Laws of Kings 9:4).
"Whoever bears the sin of murder without proper repentance is considered an absolutely wicked person (and he has no portion in the World to Come), and not even the sum total of all the Divine service and good deeds that he accomplishes in his life can outweigh the gravity of this sin" (the same, p 462-463, citing Proverbs 28:17, Rambam, Laws of Murderers ch. 4 and Laws of Repentance 3:6).
"Some topics apply to both Jews and Gentiles, but this book only comes to teach the Noahide Code. Thus, Jews should not use this text to determine their own obligations, which are more restrictive and numerous" (the Divine Code by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, Ask Noah International, 2018, p 22).