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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on January 15, 2011, 11:31:19 AM
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http://www.forward.com/articles/134701/
In Germany, Jews Fight Wave of Islamophobia Even as Some Muslims Denounce Jews
By Don Snyder
Published January 14, 2011.
Berlin — In Germany today, Muslims are often cited as a crucial factor in contemporary German anti-Semitism—and are themselves increasingly a target of ethnic based prejudice and bigotry.
Yet, leaders of Germany’s Jewish community have joined others in combating what many view as a tidal wave of German Islamophobia.
Though rich in irony, Jewish leaders see their position as a matter of Jewish self-interest in a Germany in which old ghosts remain laid to rest.
Concern about German Islamophobia comes against a backdrop in which experts who track anti-Semitism in Germany today cite a trend of Muslims joining with extreme leftists and traditional anti-Semites to protest Israel while invoking Jews, explicitly, as their targets.
Among other widely publicized events, a group of Muslims in Hanover attacked an Israeli dance troupe in June 2007, yelling “Juden raus” as they hurled stones at the members, according to press reports. And in January 2009, Muslims and German leftists marched in Berlin chanting “Death to Jews” to protest the 2008–2009 Gaza military conflict.
Yet at the same time, Muslims themselves are increasingly a target in Germany: a product of the country’s long-running failure to integrate Muslim immigrants into German society despite their presence—by invitation—in large numbers since the early 1960s. Still, a Germany rife with rising anti-Muslim prejudice offers little comfort to those worried about the welfare of Jews here.
Those hostile towards Muslims “have suddenly invoked the Judeo-Christian heritage in Germany, whereas previously there was more emphasis on the country’s Christian heritage,” explained Diedre Berger, director of the American Jewish Committee’s office in Berlin. “[By creating] a bulwark, so to speak, against the Moslems by invoking ‘Judeo-Christian’ in this debate you are creating a religious divide. The Jews want to be part of the majority society, but not at the expense of putting other minorities outside mainstream society.”
Recently, an obscure member of Germany’s Central Bank has turned up the flame on anti-Muslim sentiment to an unprecedented boil, though it cost him a seat on the bank’s board.
In “Germany Does Away With Itself,” author Thilo Sarrazin offers an indictment of Germany’s 4.2 million Muslims—5.5% of the population—blaming them for dumbing down German culture and draining the nation’s welfare budget. Disturbingly, Sarrazin, a member of Germany’s center-left Social Democratic Party, at times appears to come close to a genetics-based condemnation of the community.
“Culturally and morally the Muslims represent a step backward for German society,” Sarrazin declares in his book, published last August. “If the birthrate of the migrants continues to remain higher than the indigenous population, within a few generations, the migrants will take over the state and society and create a nation of dunces.”
Jewish leaders have been quick to denounce Sarrazin. Writing about him in the newspaper Bild am Sonntag, the former vice president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, Michel Friedman, insisted that there could be “no more tolerance for this intolerance,” adding, “We need bridge builders, not people who preach hate, much less on the board of the German Bundesbank.”
Friedman’s criticism was inspired in part by a sense that Sarrazin was introducing—or reintroducing—a broader, unhealthy viewpoint into Germany’s public discourse. In an interview after the publication of his book, Sarrazin angered Jews when, in defending and expanding on his views of Turkish Muslims as a group, he seemed to defend sweeping ethnic generalizations, saying, “All Jews share a certain gene; Basques have certain genes that differentiate them from others.”
Chancellor Angela Merkel has soundly repudiated the book, terming Sarrazin’s views “totally unacceptable.” The Berlin newspaper Die Tageszeitung articulated mainstream liberal reaction, editorializing, “What should be done if 65 years after the banning of Hitler’s ‘Mein another treatise on racial theory turns into a best-seller in Germany?”
But Sarrazin’s book has acted like a match on long built-up tinder, and the firestorm it has ignited has refused to die down.
“The Germans have been politically correct about race and religion for 65 years, since the end of [World War II],” Israel’s envoy to Berlin, Yoram Ben-Zeev, told the Forward. “Now, Sarrazin has become the trigger — the spark — to get them to openly speak their minds.”
A poll conducted by the center-left Friedrich-Ebert Foundation last October, soon after the book’s publication, showed that more than 30% of Germans believe that the country “is being overrun by foreigners.” Sixty percent of Germans said they would “restrict the practice of Islam.”
In the view of Clemens Wergin, an editorial writer at Die Welt, Germany’s leading conservative newspaper, Germany’s Turkish immigrants, who make up the bulk of the country’s Muslim community, “are socialized by Muslim satellite programs.”
“The TV is on all day,” he said. “That’s why they don’t learn German fast enough when they are young. Their cultural values are different than the German cultural values that they would get from German television— which many of them are not watching.”
Many of the basic facts of the Muslim failure to integrate in Germany are not in dispute. A 2009 report by the Berlin Institute for Population and Development found that Turkish immigrants — who make up almost two-thirds of the country’s Muslims — are the least integrated ethnic group in the country, despite being the second most numerous immigrant group.
Turks were first invited into the country as guest workers in 1961, during West Germany’s post-World War II economic boom. The war’s death toll had left the democratic, Western-allied section of the divided land with huge labor shortages. Workers were needed for the country’s steel mills and mines, and for other industrial jobs. Germany negotiated an agreement with Turkey under which the latter sent 1 million of its citizens to fill these jobs — mostly desperately poor peasants from Turkey’s countryside who were often illiterate.
Neither country anticipated that these workers would stay long. But they did, and today they and their descendants constitute some 3.2 million of the country’s 4.2 million Muslim population. The overall proportion of Muslims in the population may not be that large at 5.5%, but they are concentrated in key urban areas. In Berlin, 22% of the population is Muslim; in Frankfurt, more than 30%. But until groundbreaking legislation in 2000, Germany, whose citizenship laws historically required German kinship ties, did not grant citizenship to these long-term residents, nor to their German-born children and grandchildren, who knew no other country.
Meanwhile, the industrial jobs that had brought the first generation of Turks to Germany disappeared. The second and third generations, ghettoized in poor schools and with little culture of academic achievement, failed to move into the modern high-tech sector, where the new jobs were. Living in a largely Turkish environment, many failed to learn fluent German even two or three generations into their residence in Germany. Almost all married strictly within their community, or took spouses from Turkey, thereby enlarging the family circles eligible for immigration, though not for citizenship.
“We kidded ourselves for a while that they wouldn’t stay, but that’s not the reality,” Merkel recently told her Christian Democratic Union party.
Acknowledging the failure of the multicultural concept — the co-existence of parallel German and Turkish societies — the German leader urged the nation’s Muslims to master German and respect the constitution. Germany’s Muslims, she said, “should integrate and adopt German values.”
That may be easier said than done. “There is hardly any other country in Europe where immigrants are so poorly educated,” Reiner Klingholz, a demographer and director of the Berlin Institute for Population and Development, wrote in the news magazine Der Spiegel, referring to the Turks. ”No comparative study can hide the fact that people with roots in Turkey have the greatest problems with integration.”
Sarrazin’s book has only widened this large divide. “Many Germans see Islam in their midst as an existential threat to their way of life,” said Wolfgang Benz, the recently retired head of the center for anti-Semitic research at the Technical University in Berlin. Kenan Kolat, vice president of the Turkish Community in Turkey, said that Sarrazin’s book “has given Germans permission to be openly racist.”
Kolat said that many Turks, including qualified professionals, face job discrimination and feel marginalized in Germany. Some are returning to their homeland. In 2008, the most recent year with available data, 10,147 Turks in Germany went back to their native country. The net immigration of Turks to Germany was 10,130 in 2000, but dwindled to 1,746 in 2005, according to a poll done by Der Spiegel.
Implicitly rebuking Merkel’s call for greater integration, Kolat told the Forward, “Ninety percent of Turks have been here for decades and are fully integrated, and I can’t bear to hear this discussion anymore. Integration to Germans means that Turks must adapt to German society and its values, and that is not acceptable.”
Contact Don Snyder at [email protected]
Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/134701/#ixzz1B7eVPe8Z
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Schmuckness unlimited.
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Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes.
Muslims, have fun slaughtering those GermaNazi and Judenrat pigs!
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Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes.
Muslims, have fun slaughtering those GermaNazi and Judenrat pigs!
Not all German Jews support that, I have a good friend who lives in Germany and is Jewish, his dad is German and mom is a Soviet Jew and a lot cannot leave because of issues like language barrier, etc. It's also not easy to just give up everything you own and leave.
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Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes.
Muslims, have fun slaughtering those GermaNazi and Judenrat pigs!
Let's not toss out the baby with the bathwater Ron... I agree with you that Jews should for many reasons should not be living in Germany however some of them residing there would find it very hard to leave and relocate in Israel... It seems that the Jews of Germany are falling into the same trap that Jews here in America fell for back in the late 50 and early 60 when they took on the Negro struggle for so called civil rights... A segment of the Jewish population here in America fought for black civil rights and in the process lost some of their own...Jews in Germany that are fighting for Muslim civil rights will at the end of the day find themselves in the same boat... As a person who grew up during that time I understand the thinking behind the Jewish support for blacks here in America and Muslims over in Germany... The sad fact of the matter is that both minority groups would stab the very Jews that are trying to help them right in the back... Jews are a civilized people unlike the people they sometimes try to help.... Think of it this way... You jump in the water trying to help a person who is drowning once in the water the person you are trying to help is now climbing on your back to get their head above the water... The person who was trying to help ends up being the person who drowns... This is what happened to Liberal Jews here in America and it will be the same case over in Germany... The moral of the story is that no matter where Jews live they are a productive segment of society and they should never ally themselves with people that they have nothing in common with.
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The reason i said they're insane is because they side with the qurananimals in Germany who hate them and want to kill them
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Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes.
Muslims, have fun slaughtering those GermaNazi and Judenrat pigs!
THIS IS DISGUSTING THAT YOU WOULD SAY SUCH A HIDEOUSLY CHILDISH EVIL STATEMENT!!!! :thumbsdown: You are sounding like a troll more and more everyday.
Would you say the same thing to the Jews who decided not to leave Germany in the 30s??? Should Hitler have fun burning those JudenRat pigs and throwing the Judenrat kids in ovens, because they are so stupid not to leave Germany???
I know a couple Jews and several gentiles who reside in Germany, and although I dont agree with their decision to stay there, I would never wish such a horrible thing.
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THIS IS DISGUSTING THAT YOU WOULD SAY SUCH A HIDEOUSLY CHILDISH EVIL STATEMENT!!!! :thumbsdown: You are sounding like a troll more and more everyday.
Would you say the same thing to the Jews who decided not to leave Germany in the 30s??? Hitler should have fun burning those JudenRat pigs and throwing the Judenrat kids in ovens, because they are so stupid not to leave Germany???
I know a couple Jews and several gentiles who reside in Germany, and although I dont agree with their decision to stay there, I would never wish such a horrible thing.
Rabbi Kahane would roll over in his grave.
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THIS IS DISGUSTING THAT YOU WOULD SAY SUCH A HIDEOUSLY CHILDISH EVIL STATEMENT!!!!
It's easy for him to say hideously evil things, because he is hideously evil. He also said things about wanting to rape Arab girls and other extremely crass things. He has a real mental problem and I think he's not only sick but a complete loose cannon. I don't know why Chaim allows him so much influence in the Hebrew forum because with this kind of attitude I think he will one day turn out to do a lot of harm.
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Not all German Jews support that, I have a good friend who lives in Germany and is Jewish, his dad is German and mom is a Soviet Jew and a lot cannot leave because of issues like language barrier, etc. It's also not easy to just give up everything you own and leave.
I think this islamophilia is a minority phenomenon. It is spread mainly by some funktionaries of the Central council of Jews in Germany.
The cause for this is that now the German Jews have a Concordat with the gouvernment. They get nowerdays, like the Catholics and the Lutherians, great ammounts of money for their social work.
And now they have to adjust Judaism to the will of the German politicians in order to keep the sweet sweet money - the same way the Lutherians and the Catholics have done before.
Because of this all of the three religious political instititutions support Islam, Homosexuality, Welfare and other causes and try to justify their acting with Bibel, Torah, Talmud, Catechism, Tradition etc. althrough every educated person knows in the scriptures is teached the opposite.
P.S.
Prof. Benz is a gentile.
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It's hard for me to understand why Jews who identify themselves as Jews, i.e. who are not assimilated or at least totally assimilated, would want to stay in Germany, anyway.
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It's hard for me to understand why Jews who identify themselves as Jews, i.e. who are not assimilated or at least totally assimilated, would want to stay in Germany, anyway.
What's hard to understand...If the person was born and raised there it's a hard thing to just pack up and leave... Germany is an industrialized country with plenty of high paying jobs... Will every Jew leaving it for Israel find the same level of work and income? Relocating to a different country is a very big move for most people... It requires years of preparation... If the person is established and has a family it's even harder...It would be hard for me to understand why a Jew would immigrate to Germany other then to temporally work there but for Jews who were born and raised there it's an entirely different situation.
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I read alot about Mr.Sarrazin and i don't see him as an anti Semite.Is Michael Friedman a criminal who has orgys and drugs with Teenage girls? This is a talkback from a reader
Michael Friedman is not only the "former vice president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany", he was kicked out of the Council because he slept with girls forced into prostitution on the white slave trade and made them take drugs (he took cocaine himsefl). He is lucky they were not underage, otherwise he'd be in jail.
Kolat is even worse. The German values he finds not acceptable include, for instance, outlawing "honor killings" of Muslim girls who behave like Germans.
Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/134701/#ixzz1BCKIZJLG
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The more I think about what Ron said the angrier I get. He's basically saying that any Jew who lives outside of Israel deserves to get murdered. This after what happened to 6 million of his brothers and sisters.
Oh and I saw your and Alex's "Christmas present" Ron. You really don't have any class whatsoever do you?
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What's hard to understand...If the person was born and raised there it's a hard thing to just pack up and leave... Germany is an industrialized country with plenty of high paying jobs... Will every Jew leaving it for Israel find the same level of work and income? Relocating to a different country is a very big move for most people... It requires years of preparation... If the person is established and has a family it's even harder...It would be hard for me to understand why a Jew would immigrate to Germany other then to temporally work there but for Jews who were born and raised there it's an entirely different situation.
It's hard to understand for someone who has a Jewish soul. But if you don't, yeah, why not make money in Germany ?
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It's hard to understand for someone who has a Jewish soul. But if you don't, yeah, why not make money in Germany ?
Honestly I don't think living in Germany is that much different than living in France or America. I actually don't preach for all Jews to live in Israel but I expect them all to know where there priorities are. I can't stand when Jews refer to themselves as "Jewish American" etc. since it means they are already half way through their assimilation.
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It's hard to understand for someone who has a Jewish soul. But if you don't, yeah, why not make money in Germany ?
Granted the ideal is for all Jews to return to the "Land of Israel" While I understand it is every Jew's right to immigrate there what happens to people who immigrate there and are unable to earn a living? Are there the resources to allow everyone coming in to make the transition in a way that would allow them survive without seeking social services if such a thing even exists... It's very hard for people to consider leaving an existence where they are situated and making their way for one of uncertainty...I am sure many of the Jews living outside of Israel would love to make the move but in their heart know they would be setting themselves up for great hardships poverty not being the least of it... I have heard many stories where people made the move only to find it impossible to remain in Israel.
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"Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes."
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Adolf couldn't have said it any better.
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"Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes."
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Adolf couldn't have said it any better.
I agree. If you're a Jew living outside the land of Israel, you're not a real Jew.
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I agree. If you're a Jew living outside the land of Israel, you're not a real Jew.
So you agree that Jews living in the exile are "subhuman scum" ?
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I agree. If you're a Jew living outside the land of Israel, you're not a real Jew.
:o I bet that's news to a lot of Jewish people. Why is that?
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I agree. If you're a Jew living outside the land of Israel, you're not a real Jew.
When does the "real Jew" status kick in when the plane's wheels touch the ground in Israel or do some papers have to be filed? From some of the policy that comes out of Israel in the past 40 years I would say there are a good many less then "real Jews" there also... I get the point your trying to make but there are a great many good Jewish people that a statement like that is really hurtful to... Let's not poison the well in an effort to purify the water... It's far better to give the reasons why Jew's should live in Israel then it is to say how bad they are for not.
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Honestly I don't think living in Germany is that much different than living in France or America.
There is a big difference. France or America did a number of things that were wrong, but the Germans bear an overwhelming responsibility in the genocide against European jewry. They haven't paid a tenth of the price they should have paid for what they did (and not only against Jews). They haven't even supported Israel against the Arabs to begin to make up for their crimes. So there is no question that I will never speak their language, I will never pay taxes for their state, I will never work in one of their companies. I am not afraid to say loud and clear that I hate them, it's in my blood and in my guts, there is nothing that can change the way I feel and I don't give a damn what anybody thinks about it.
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Jews should move to Israel, but to say Jews not living in Israel are subhuman is the antithesis of Judaism. Jews should pray and work to get their fellow Jews to come to the land of Israel. As of now many Jews in Israel are giving Jews in the exiles every reason NOT to come to Israel. How many people want to go a country as self-destructive as Israel? Look at what the Jews in Israel are doing to themselves as they surrender territory and allow their own people to be attacked with impunity by their sworn enemies! In addition look how many secular and degenerate Israelis exist, they certainly are a big reason why millions of Chasidic Jews don't go to Israel!
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THIS IS DISGUSTING THAT YOU WOULD SAY SUCH A HIDEOUSLY CHILDISH EVIL STATEMENT!!!! :thumbsdown: You are sounding like a troll more and more everyday.
Would you say the same thing to the Jews who decided not to leave Germany in the 30s??? Should Hitler have fun burning those JudenRat pigs and throwing the Judenrat kids in ovens, because they are so stupid not to leave Germany???
I know a couple Jews and several gentiles who reside in Germany, and although I dont agree with their decision to stay there, I would never wish such a horrible thing.
European Jews were barred by the British rulers and their Jewish collaborators, yimach shmam ve zichram, from entering the colonial Palestine in the 30s and in the 40s. They were trapped. The situation was completely different from today.
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The more I think about what Ron said the angrier I get. He's basically saying that any Jew who lives outside of Israel deserves to get murdered. This after what happened to 6 million of his brothers and sisters.
What he says makes sense : today, there exists a Jewish state (as imperfectly "Jewish" as it may be) to which almost all Jews are free to emigrate, with the first Jewish army in 2,000 years (again, as imperfectly "Jewish" as we know it is), that will defend the Jewish people in Israel in case the world turns badly against the Jews again. So Jews in the Exile have a choice - unlike European Jews in the 30s. They can - and they must, if they are observant Jews, go to Israel and help Israel become the great nation that it is destined to be. I really don't think Ron wants Galut Jews to be murdered, G-d forbid, I think he wants them to make aliyah and what he says is that if they refuse to do so, although they have a choice, then they should be ready to face the consequences of their decisions.
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So you agree that Jews living in the exile are "subhuman scum" ?
Is not I'm saying that. I'm just saying Jews must live in the land of Israel.
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What he says makes sense : today, there exists a Jewish state (as imperfectly "Jewish" as it may be) to which almost all Jews are free to emigrate, with the first Jewish army in 2,000 years (again, as imperfectly "Jewish" as we know it is), that will defend the Jewish people in Israel in case the world turns badly against the Jews again. So Jews in the Exile have a choice - unlike European Jews in the 30s. They can - and they must, if they are observant Jews, go to Israel and help Israel become the great nation that it is destined to be. I really don't think Ron wants Galut Jews to be murdered, G-d forbid, I think he wants them to make aliyah and what he says is that if they refuse to do so, although they have a choice, then they should be ready to face the consequences of their decisions.
You explain it well, but he said it totally differently...
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As of now many Jews in Israel are giving Jews in the exiles every reason NOT to come to Israel. How many people want to go a country as self-destructive as Israel? Look at what the Jews in Israel are doing to themselves as they surrender territory and allow their own people to be attacked with impunity by their sworn enemies! In addition look how many secular and degenerate Israelis exist, they certainly are a big reason why millions of Chasidic Jews don't go to Israel!
All the more reason for true Jews to come to Israel and help the true Jews in Israel change the country for the better ! Today, Israel is still controlled by a corrupt elite, but things could change quickly if other views could be expressed freely and a mass movement could be created because this corrupt elite does not represent the views of the majority of the people of Israel.
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I don't see how someone can be pro-Jewish and say that, especially to have that attitude toward their own bretheren.
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I don't see how someone can be pro-Jewish and say that, especially to have that attitude toward their own bretheren.
Assuming you refer to Ron's post, it is clear to me that it is because he views them as traitors. There is not a more dangerous ennemy than a traitor or an ennemy within. Jews who support Muslim Nazis are traitors to the Jews - and a danger to humanity in general...
Here, we have Jews who choose to live in a country that committed a genocide against the Jewish people and did not subsequently try to make up for its crimes in any significant manner - on the contrary, that country watched in indifference (or maybe delight) as Israel was on the brink of being destroyed by the Arabs several times. That is already bad enough on the part of these Jews (although I wouldn't wish death to them for that reason alone).
But their case is seriously compounded by the fact that, today, they support Muslims who want to exterminate the Jews ! Can't they justifiably be called "Judenrat pigs", even though the expression is provocative ? If I had to choose between the expressions "my own bretheren" and "Judenrat pigs" to qualify them, I would take the latter without hesitation.
Anyone who supports Muslim Nazis deserves to receive the treatment that Muslim Nazis inflict on "infidels". There is free will in this world and if we choose evil, we must bear the consequences of our decisions.
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Assuming you refer to Ron's post, it is clear to me that it is because he views them as traitors. There is not a more dangerous ennemy than a traitor or an ennemy within. Jews who support Muslim Nazis are traitors to the Jews - and a danger to humanity in general...
Here, we have Jews who choose to live in a country that committed a genocide against the Jewish people and did not subsequently try to make up for its crimes in any significant manner - on the contrary, that country watched in indifference (or maybe delight) as Israel was on the brink of being destroyed by the Arabs several times. That is already bad enough on the part of these Jews (although I wouldn't wish death to them for that reason alone).
But their case is seriously compounded by the fact that, today, they support Muslims who want to exterminate the Jews ! Can't they justifiably be called "Judenrat pigs", even though the expression is provocative ? If I had to choose between the expressions "my own bretheren" and "Judenrat pigs" to qualify them, I would take the latter without hesitation.
Anyone who supports Muslim Nazis deserves to receive the treatment that Muslim Nazis inflict on "infidels". There is free will in this world and if we choose evil, we must bear the consequences of our decisions.
There is not an ounce of Ahavat Yisrael in Ron's post and I am surprised you try to justify his words.
Let me tell you something, a real story. I know of a man who left Israel years ago for Austria where he had been born. Over the years he became religious and today his children and his grandchildren live Jerusalem, very frum hasidic Jews.
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My point is that today the greatest enemy of Jews residing in Germany is the qurananimal i don't know how the majority of secular Germans feel but i can assure you there's alot less hostility towards Jews from Ethnic Germans then from the qurananimals.The thing that amazes me is that these Jewish Folks sympathize with the qurananimals
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There is not an ounce of Ahavat Yisrael in Ron's post and I am surprised you try to justify his words.
Let me tell you something, a real story. I know of a man who left Israel years ago for Austria where he had been born. Over the years he became religious and today his children and his grandchildren live Jerusalem, very frum hasidic Jews.
Ahavat Yisrael does not mean that we should love traitors or condone evil deeds committed by Jews. If I have to choose between an evil, corrupt Jew (ethnic Jew) and a righteous gentile, I choose the righteous gentile (but I will do my best to make sure that the corrupt Jew gets a chance to realize his mistake and change).
Your story is interesting, but I cannot see what it proves.
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There is not an ounce of Ahavat Yisrael in Ron's post and I am surprised you try to justify his words.
Have to agree. I'm surprised at Ron.
It's one thing to say he wouldn't be surprised if german muslims slaughter them. It's quite another to wish that on them and call them scum.
Ron, I think you should reconsider what you wrote. Do you really mean that about all those Jews?
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Assuming you refer to Ron's post, it is clear to me that it is because he views them as traitors. There is not a more dangerous ennemy than a traitor or an ennemy within. Jews who support Muslim Nazis are traitors to the Jews - and a danger to humanity in general...
What you said here is quite true, but how can every single Jew living in Germany be considered a supporter of muslim nazis and a traitor? You (and Ron) really think that every single Jew supports the traitor group mord is identifying and exposing here?
It's like calling every american Jew scum because of the ADL. What about thousands of Jews who hate abe foxman?
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THIS IS DISGUSTING THAT YOU WOULD SAY SUCH A HIDEOUSLY CHILDISH EVIL STATEMENT!!!! :thumbsdown: You are sounding like a troll more and more everyday.
Would you say the same thing to the Jews who decided not to leave Germany in the 30s??? Should Hitler have fun burning those JudenRat pigs and throwing the Judenrat kids in ovens, because they are so stupid not to leave Germany???
I know a couple Jews and several gentiles who reside in Germany, and although I dont agree with their decision to stay there, I would never wish such a horrible thing.
You defend traitors who live in Nazi Germany after they murdered 7 million Jews and you call ME hideously evil?!
Rabbi Kahane would roll over in his grave.
Rabbi Kahane said that Jews who use Volkswagen after the German Nazis murdered 7 million Jews are evil kapo traitors. 70 years after the German Nazis murdered 7 millions, evil Judenrat pigs live there, pay them taxes, intermarry witG them, buy their products (which many are made out of Jews or were made by Jews in the death camps), etc. These simians dance on the grave of all the Jews the German Nazis murdered. Germany is a Nazi Amalek and the Jews who live there are Judenrat traitors whose destruction of both is a Divine promise.
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This is very childish...
No Jew should wish death on another Jew. We do not hate our own. Our people do not survive by hating each other and wishing death on others. The Jewish way is summarized as "Push away with the left, pull in with the right"...
I think Ron is just not able to say what he means in a way which can be understood by others. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he really does love the Jewish people, and in his own way, is wishing that they would see the dangers of living in such a place and make aliyah as soon as possible.
Jews should not desecrate the name by appearing bloodthirsty and acting demeaning to other Jews. There are Torah commandments which proscribe how the Jew is to relate to his fellow and we should not violate those commands while trying to fulfill others...
http://www.ou.org/ou/print_this/5282
A Heavenly Voice was heard, saying, 'Rabbi Eliezer ben Duradia is prepared for entry into the World-to-Come.'
Rabbi Yehudah the Prince, the great Torah Sage who compiled the Mishnah, upon hearing of the above, cried and said, 'Some acquire their share in the World-to-Come by many years of toil. Others acquire their share in one moment.' And Rabbi Judah the Prince said, 'Not only are they accepted, but they are given the title of 'Rabbi.' "(Masechet Avodah Zarah 17a)
"Our Rabbis taught, 'A person should always push away the sinner with the left (generally, the weaker) hand, but hold him close with the right (generally, the stronger) hand. Not like Yehoshua ben Perachiah who pushed away his student with both hands." (Masechet Sotah 47a)
Comment: It is necessary to push away the "sinner," to some extent; that is, to let him know that he has gone off the path, but never to reject him entirely, as that would violate the entire spirit of the Jewish Religion's approach to Sin and the Acceptance of Repentance.
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Rabbi Kahane said that Jews who use Volkswagen after the German Nazis murdered 7 million Jews are evil kapo traitors. 70 years after the German Nazis murdered 7 millions, evil Judenrat pigs live there, pay them taxes, intermarry witG them, buy their products (which many are made out of Jews or were made by Jews in the death camps), etc. These simians dance on the grave of all the Jews the German Nazis murdered. Germany is a Nazi Amalek and the Jews who live there are Judenrat traitors whose destruction of both is a Divine promise.
-You're not a real Kahanist because you hate non-Jews.
-Kahane didn't have a vicious hate towards Jews just for living in germany. He hated evil Jews.
-You dance on the grave of all Righteous Gentiles.
-Anyone who changes religion like he changes socks, starts threads about how all Serbs supporting russia should be exterminated, idiotically threatens to kill people on the internet etcetera etcetera is not fit to judge anyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwvkrougl54
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בס''ד
1. Jews are commanded to live in the Land of Israel. It is not a request, but a commandment. Any Jew who chooses to live outside of Israel is violating G-d's commandment.
2. To compound the terrible sin of living outside of Israel by choosing to live in the nation that committed the worst crime in human history, Germany, is the ultimate act of treason. Jews who live in Germany are traitors. These Jews are spitting on the graves of over 6 million innocent Jewish men, women and children.
3. I would not have used Ron's language, but his general belief that Jews who live in Germany after the holocaust are traitors is absolutely correct. Not only did the Germans murder over 6 million innocent Jews, this generation of Germans prove that they have not really changed by supporting the Arab Muslim Nazi effort to perpetrate yet another holocaust, this time against 5 million Israeli Jews.
4. We are commanded to curse Jewish traitors. The Jews who live in Germany are among the worst traitors in Jewish history.
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Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes.
Muslims, have fun slaughtering those GermaNazi and Judenrat pigs!
This is disgusting. You are advocating a second Shoah against your fellow Jews.
I know full well that the vast majority of European Jews are self-haters who deserve to get judged, but still, I have no words for this.
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בס''ד
1. Jews are commanded to live in the Land of Israel. It is not a request, but a commandment. Any Jew who chooses to live outside of Israel is violating G-d's commandment.
2. To compound the terrible sin of living outside of Israel by choosing to live in the nation that committed the worst crime in human history, Germany, is the ultimate act of treason. Jews who live in Germany are traitors. These Jews are spitting on the graves of over 6 million innocent Jewish men, women and children.
3. I would not have used Ron's language, but his general belief that Jews who live in Germany after the holocaust are traitors is absolutely correct. Not only did the Germans murder over 6 million innocent Jews, this generation of Germans prove that they have not really changed by supporting the Arab Muslim Nazi effort to perpetrate yet another holocaust, this time against 5 million Israeli Jews.
4. We are commanded to curse Jewish traitors. The Jews who live in Germany are among the worst traitors in Jewish history.
Chaim, we have already established that they are self-hating. I've followed you for 12 years and you know how I feel about self-hating Jews and that I think they deserve severe judgment. But calling for a second Holocaust against German Jews is beyond the pale. There is nothing defensible about what Ron said, however remotely.
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Im sorry but I do not agree that we are commanded to curse Jews who live outside of Israel. There are many commands that the Torah obliges a Jew, and many Jews who live in Israel are violating those commandments. There are important commandments which could be fulfilled every day and people are trampling even those commandments. Why should we not curse all non-religious people for their ignoring the commands of Hashem? How about those who do not keep kosher, or those who do not observe Shabbat?
Do we not alienate many Jews by cursing Jews who live in Germany? I do not know any German Jews at this time yet I think that there may be reasons why they remain. Do you think that Hashem will not judge us harsher if we are cursing Jews who are suffering for some reason in that country? I will not join in cursing them, I am sorry to say...
My hope is that there will come a time when they will see that Israel is the only hope for Jewish survival. The galut will come to an end either through assimilation or war.
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בס''ד
Jews who live in Germany are traitors. How can any Jew live in a nation that murdered over 6 million Jews? It is an unforgivable crime.
But I want to comment on a truly miraculous development: Tempe Brennan Fan and Muman are actually agreeing on something! Does this mean that we JTFers have finally turned our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks (in terms of ending all unnecessary internal disputes)? I certainly hope so.
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Chaim, I agree with you that the majority of these Jews are traitors and deserve to be punished (certainly if they are cheerleading the Islamic takeover of Europe). But what about those German Jews that aren't--that are simply ignorant and secular and don't really realize what is going on? I think we should reach out to them, not call for their deaths. I don't see how they are worse people automatically than Israelis who have similar political views but just happened to have the good fortune of being born in the Holy Land.
We might never see eye to eye on this, but I'm immensely more bothered by Israelis who supported the release of Samir Kuntar, the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, and banning you/Rabbi Kahane than typical galut Jews. I expect more of those who actually live in the Holy Land, particularly since most Israelis know someone who has been murdered by Muslim Nazis.
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בס''ד
Jews who live in Germany are traitors. How can any Jew live in a nation that murdered over 6 million Jews? It is an unforgivable crime.
But I want to comment on a truly miraculous development: Tempe Brennan Fan and Muman are actually agreeing on something! Does this mean that we JTFers have finally turned our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks (in terms of ending all unnecessary internal disputes)? I certainly hope so.
I guess if they could settle their differences... anyone can...
On a side note, I hate to see anyone saying they would enjoy seeing Muslims burning Jews.... This is identical to saying they enjoy watching Nazis stick Jews in ovens.. and is exacly the kinda crap we would see in StørmFrønt. I dont care how much we hate those Jews for their decisions..... getting ANY enjoyment out of Islamonazis carrying out a second hollocaust is unforgivable.
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Chaim, I agree with you that the majority of these Jews are traitors and deserve to be punished (certainly if they are cheerleading the Islamic takeover of Europe). But what about those German Jews that aren't--that are simply ignorant and secular and don't really realize what is going on? I think we should reach out to them, not call for their deaths. I don't see how they are worse people automatically than Israelis who have similar political views but just happened to have the good fortune of being born in the Holy Land.
We might never see eye to eye on this, but I'm immensely more bothered by Israelis who supported the release of Samir Kuntar, the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, and banning you/Rabbi Kahane than typical galut Jews. I expect more of those who actually live in the Holy Land, particularly since most Israelis know someone who has been murdered by Muslim Nazis.
I completely agree with you on this. I think the few Jews I know in Germany, including one on THIS board are NOT evil people... and do not have the same evil traiterous mentallity of many other self-hating Jews. They are just ignorantly complacent.... they dont deserve the horrible wished from Ron... No Jew does. I especially say this about those who have grown up in Germany... and may very well leave Germany in the future, as the country continues to decay. They need our help, not our hate.
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בס''ד
Jews who live in Germany are traitors. How can any Jew live in a nation that murdered over 6 million Jews? It is an unforgivable crime.
But I want to comment on a truly miraculous development: Tempe Brennan Fan and Muman are actually agreeing on something! Does this mean that we JTFers have finally turned our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks (in terms of ending all unnecessary internal disputes)? I certainly hope so.
Yes, this is indeed an interesting development.
I certainly understand how obviously wrong it is for people who consider themselves to be Jewish to remain in a land which has such a horrible history of antisemitism. I obviously am very angry at those who perpetrated the injustice towards the Jews who lived in Germany during the early 20th century. It is obvious to me that living in that land is foolish and that the odds of Jew hatred arising again is very great.
But my only disagreement is whether we should openly call for them to be killed or whether they can ultimately be persuaded to leave...
I must say that I am impressed with TBF's opinion on this matter....
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בס''ד
Jews who live in Germany are traitors.
I disagree. Some are born there and are living there to no fault of their own. I do agree they should get the hell out of there, however. But to say that they are all traitors is a bit much. If all it takes is to live in a certain place and that equates to giving "support" or credibility of some kind to the evil powers residing there and/or that used to reside there, then There is no place on earth where one can live and not be in support of evil. Israel included.
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I agree with KWRBT.
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So stay in Germany where at the very least, holocaust denial is illegal though a leftist country or go to Israel where the bolshevik government may remove you from your house by force for being Jewish and arrest you if you pray at your temple mount? Hard decision...
Hard decision for a Jew, to choose between Germany and Israel if he wants to live a Jewish life ? You gotta be kidding ! This is absurd.
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What you said here is quite true, but how can every single Jew living in Germany be considered a supporter of muslim nazis and a traitor? You (and Ron) really think that every single Jew supports the traitor group mord is identifying and exposing here?
It's like calling every american Jew scum because of the ADL. What about thousands of Jews who hate abe foxman?
Where did I say that all Jews living in Germany support Muslims ? Precisely I made a clear distinction in my post, saying that I would not wish death to anyone simply because they live in Germany (although I find it quite shocking for a Jew to do so). Please read my entire post before criticizing it.
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Im sorry but I do not agree that we are commanded to curse Jews who live outside of Israel. There are many commands that the Torah obliges a Jew, and many Jews who live in Israel are violating those commandments. There are important commandments which could be fulfilled every day and people are trampling even those commandments. Why should we not curse all non-religious people for their ignoring the commands of Hashem? How about those who do not keep kosher, or those who do not observe Shabbat?
Do we not alienate many Jews by cursing Jews who live in Germany? I do not know any German Jews at this time yet I think that there may be reasons why they remain. Do you think that Hashem will not judge us harsher if we are cursing Jews who are suffering for some reason in that country? I will not join in cursing them, I am sorry to say...
My hope is that there will come a time when they will see that Israel is the only hope for Jewish survival. The galut will come to an end either through assimilation or war.
No-one said that Jews who live outside of Israel must be cursed just because they live in the Exile. And, you are right, a lot of Jews who live in Israel violate more commandments than many Jews who live in the Exile and who are good Jews apart from the fact that they should make aliyah (which is a severe violation of the Torah, though, let's not underestimate it...).
Those who may deserve to be cursed are the traitors, according to the gravity of their betrayal, including Israeli Jews of course.
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I disagree. Some are born there and are living there to no fault of their own. I do agree they should get the hell out of there, however. But to say that they are all traitors is a bit much. If all it takes is to live in a certain place and that equates to giving "support" or credibility of some kind to the evil powers residing there and/or that used to reside there, then There is no place on earth where one can live and not be in support of evil. Israel included.
I agree with Chaim to a large extent.
You are right to point out that no Galut Jew is guilty of having been born in the Exile. They couldn't help it and it is not a crime. However, once they have grown up and they are in a position to make aliyah, then they make a choice by staying in the Exile. Especially today, when Israel is a modern country with economic opportunities and various programmes to facilitate aliyah. It is a fact that the Torah commands Galut Jews to gather in Israel. So staying in the Exile under these circumstances is a violation of the Torah. There is only a couple of restrictive exceptions that the Sages have laid out, such as when leaving the Exile may endanger the lives of your relatives and your loved ones (if you have to stay to look after your ill mother, for example). Now, can such a violation be called treason ? I believe it can, to a certain extent, given the fact that Israel is a tiny country under pressure and under immense threat. Israel needs Galut Jews to come and strengthen the Jewish state, the Jewish army, she needs Galut Jews to come and bring their skills, their resources, their commitment. If, G-d forbid, Israel was badly hurt in the next predictable phase of hostility with Arab Nazis, then Galut Jews would bear their share of responsibility.
I emphasize that what I am saying applies to Jews who claim to be Torah Jews, not to ethnic Jews who have chosen to assimilate.
Now, what should be the punishment for that form of treason ? It's not for me or anybody else to decide, this is clearly HaShem's prerogative. My personal belief, rooted in the Torah, is that HaShem judges individual Jews with infinite wisdom and understanding of every aspect of each Jew's individual situation, and that He is a loving Father to His people. Staying in the Exile just because you have a high-paying job there and you are afraid to earn less in Israel seems to me to be a wrong reason. But there can be more serious obstacles, and HaShem is aware of them.
Now, all that I have discussed was about Jews in the Exile in general. As for Jews choosing to stay in Germany, I would be much more assertive in saying that it is a form of treason. I am not going to repeat all I have already said in this thread, the bottomline is that it is obvious that there is something special about Germany ! To me, a Jew who doesn't view himself as assimilated and who chooses to live in Germany had better come up with a very convincing explanation for making that decision. Claiming that it is difficult to move because of language barriers or job search is not enough, this is just looking for an excuse.
Finally, not all forms of treason are on the same level and I think that there are Israeli Jews who are much worse traitors than Galut Jews, especially the Israeli Jews who harass the Jews of Judea and Samaria.
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I agree with Chaim to a large extent.
You are right to point out that no Galut Jew is guilty of having been born in the Exile. They couldn't help it and it is not a crime. However, once they have grown up and they are in a position to make aliyah, then they make a choice by staying in the Exile. Especially today, when Israel is a modern country with economic opportunities and various programmes to facilitate aliyah. It is a fact that the Torah commands Galut Jews to gather in Israel. So staying in the Exile under these circumstances is a violation of the Torah. There is only a couple of restrictive exceptions that the Sages have laid out, such as when leaving the Exile may endanger the lives of your relatives and your loved ones (if you have to stay to look after your ill mother, for example). Now, can such a violation be called treason ? I believe it can, to a certain extent, given the fact that Israel is a tiny country under pressure and under immense threat. Israel needs Galut Jews to come and strengthen the Jewish state, the Jewish army, she needs Galut Jews to come and bring their skills, their resources, their commitment. If, G-d forbid, Israel was badly hurt in the next predictable phase of hostility with Arab Nazis, then Galut Jews would bear their share of responsibility.
I emphasize that what I am saying applies to Jews who claim to be Torah Jews, not to ethnic Jews who have chosen to assimilate.
Now, what should be the punishment for that form of treason ? It's not for me or anybody else to decide, this is clearly HaShem's prerogative. My personal belief, rooted in the Torah, is that HaShem judges individual Jews with infinite wisdom and understanding of every aspect of each Jew's individual situation, and that He is a loving Father to His people. Staying in the Exile just because you have a high-paying job there and you are afraid to earn less in Israel seems to me to be a wrong reason. But there can be more serious obstacles, and HaShem is aware of them.
Now, all that I have discussed was about Jews in the Exile in general. As for Jews choosing to stay in Germany, I would be much more assertive in saying that it is a form of treason. I am not going to repeat all I have already said in this thread, the bottomline is that it is obvious that there is something special about Germany ! To me, a Jew who doesn't view himself as assimilated and who chooses to live in Germany had better come up with a very convincing explanation for making that decision. Claiming that it is difficult to move because of language barriers or job search is not enough, this is just looking for an excuse.
Finally, not all forms of treason are on the same level and I think that there are Israeli Jews who are much worse traitors than Galut Jews, especially the Israeli Jews who harass the Jews of Judea and Samaria.
This still doesn't whitewash ron's viciously anchored hate or megalomanian delusion that he would have something to say about anyone.
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I would like to see what Chaim says about the German Jews who are not pro-Muslim, and who haven't had a compelling case made to them as to why they should make aliyah.
Yes Germany is still Nazi Germany to this very day, but the vast majority of people all over the world assume that it is no longer Nazi, including many Jews. I don't think we can reasonably expect most non-JTF Jews to instinctively realize this. If average Israelis don't instinctively recognize that all Arab Muslim Nazis need to be expelled (and they are actively murdering them as we speak), I don't really think that German Jews can be expected to see that Germany is still Nazi at a time that the German authorities are not actively shooting them or taking them to death camps.
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This still doesn't whitewash ron's viciously anchored hate or megalomanian delusion that he would have something to say about anyone.
My point is not to "whitewash" Ron. In my view, this thread is not about Ron or anybody else. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has already read some of my posts knows that I sincerely respect righteous Gentiles. I even consider it as a blessing to work with truly righteous Gentiles (not phonies).
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Well then we must discuss Jews who lived in Russia the Russians did a good Job of killing Jews without modern equipment.As well as Syrian Jews the Syrians had very big pogroms in the 17Hundreds
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I would like to see what Chaim says about the German Jews who are not pro-Muslim, and who haven't had a compelling case made to them as to why they should make aliyah.
Yes Germany is still Nazi Germany to this very day, but the vast majority of people all over the world assume that it is no longer Nazi, including many Jews. I don't think we can reasonably expect most non-JTF Jews to instinctively realize this. If average Israelis don't instinctively recognize that all Arab Muslim Nazis need to be expelled (and they are actively murdering them as we speak), I don't really think that German Jews can be expected to see that Germany is still Nazi at a time that the German authorities are not actively shooting them or taking them to death camps.
I wouldn't say Germany today is still Nazi Germany. The condition of Jews has nothing to do with what it was during the third Reich. There are neo-Nazis, but the main form of antisemitism is hatred toward Israel and support for the Arabs, because that's politically correct. The level of antizionism is not significantly higher in Germany than in the rest of Europe, though. The primary reason why Jews should not live in Germany is to honour the memory of their people. Any Jew who has Jewish pride and a Jewish soul can feel this.
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Well then we must discuss Jews who lived in Russia the Russians did a good Job of killing Jews without modern equipment.As well as Syrian Jews the Syrians had very big pogroms in the 17Hundreds
The Jews who lived in Russia were not free to leave. The Communists forbade them. As soon as they had the chance to leave, they fled Russia.
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The Jews who lived in Russia were not free to leave. The Communists forbade them. As soon as they had the chance to leave, they fled Russia.
What i'm talking about is close to half the Jews fled Russia in the late 1800's
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בס''ד
Jews who live in Germany are traitors. How can any Jew live in a nation that murdered over 6 million Jews? It is an unforgivable crime.
How could Jews live in Babylon, and in Rome after the genocide that they had committed against us ? There are Jews who live in Israel and are traitors and there are Jews who live in Germany and are not. I am sorry but I think your hatred to Germany blinds you to the point that it makes you hate and curse random Jews.
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How could Jews live in Babylon, and in Rome after the genocide that they had committed against us ?
For this reason, when Rabba bar bar Chana was swimming in the Jordan river (See Yoma 9b) on one of his many trips to Eretz Yisrael (he taught at the yeshiva in Pumbeditha), as he put out his hand to Resh Lakish, a great amora of Eretz Yisrael, for a greeting, he was instead met with the words "G-d, I hate you [Babylonians]!"
Then Resh Lakish quotes the verse: Song of Songs (8.9), "If she be a wall, we will build upon her a turret of silver, and if she be a door, we will enclose her with boards of cedar."
The interpretation: "Had you only returned to Eretz Israel, when Ezra so called you to do, like a solid fortress wall, the position would have been radically different."
Rav Unterman's (once chief rabbi of Israel) explaination of this passage in detail is found here:
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/eretz/aliya.php
However, I think it's quite clear that there is a major difference between a legitimate gripe with galuth Jews and a resulting resentment vs. actually wishing them dead or calling them scum that should be slaughtered by muslim nazis!
There is a major difference. And I think Ron and Chaim should consider that.
There are Jews who live in Israel and are traitors and there are Jews who live in Germany and are not.
This point can't be ignored.
I am sorry but I think your hatred to Germany blinds you to the point that it makes you hate and curse random Jews.
I also think it looks like it has come to that.
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As much as this pains me, I think this is the first time where I significantly disagree with Chaim on a point of policy.
Yes Germany is still Nazi Germany, and yes the majority of Jews living there are self-haters who deserve fierce judgment, but some are just ignorant and a few are genuine rightists who just haven't gotten around to aliyah for whatever reason.
For that reason I cannot agree with cursing every last German Jew.
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I sure hope Chaim doesn't think advocating and rooting for the slaughter of Jews living in Germany is appropriate behavior or should be a policy embraced by JTF.
Chaim, if you're endorsing statements like:
"Jews living in Nazi Germany are sub-human scum who have to be burned into fumes.
Muslims, have fun slaughtering those GermaNazi and Judenrat pigs!"
Well then, you've gone off the deep end.
You want to call the Jews living in Germany traitors ? Fine.
You want to accuse them of committing an unforgivable crime ? Fine.
But to call them sub-human scum that have to be burned into fumes ?
To hope that Muslims slaughter them ?
Sorry, that's where you lose me.
I know those weren't your words, Chaim. But since you took the time to articulate why you think Jews living in Germany are traitors that are committing an unforgivable crime, I'd be interested to know if you agree with Ron that they should be burned into fumes and slaughtered by Muslims.
In all honesty, posts like the one Ron made should concern all JTF members.
Where does JTF draw the line ?
Should Jews that drive a Mercedes Benz or a BMW also be considered traitors ?
How about a Ford ?
Since I've heard you say America was responsible for the death of the Jews in Auschwitz by refusing to bomb the railways leading to it, maybe JTF should brand Jews living in America as traitors too.
Do you consider a Jew like David Ben Moshe a traitor ? He lives in America and I recall you saying he has no desire to live in Israel.
How about the Jews living in Spain ? Are they traitors ? After all, there was an Inquisition.
How about the Jews living in the U.K. ?
Let's be honest, if JTF is going to brand every Jew living in a country that has persecuted, murdered and slaughtered Jews, well then, just about every Jew not living in Israel is a traitor.
I know that I don't subscribe to that viewpoint, but I won't condemn others for thinking they are. After all, the Torah mandates Jews live in Israel and that they're transgressing by not doing so - regardless of whether the particular country they're residing in is hostile to Israel and the Jews or not.
But to call for their slaughter ? Does the Torah call for that ?
How about Jews in Israel that purchase German products ? Sailors in the IDF that serve on German made Dolphin submarines ? Are they all traitors too ?
Should we advocate their slaughter and turning them into fumes as well ?
And finally, what about the non-observant Jews ?
Are they all traitors too ?
What would their fate be in an administration or government with leaders like Ron ?
Mass movement ?
Think about it.
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Chaim, how do you feel about Jews living in America?
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Should Jews that drive a Mercedes Benz or a BMW also be considered traitors ?
How about a Ford ?
Yes, yes, and yes [add to the list: Volkswagen, Jaguar, Porshe, and a slew of others; Jews do not have many moral choices when it comes to automobiles].
The Germans and British played a "good cop/bad cop" role that led to the murder of 6 million Jews. To get a car made by these countries because... "they sure murdered a lot of Jews, but they do make some schnazzy cars", is beyond sick. -- What a disease we are fighting. I went to a "Bat Mitzvah" today that I was invited to, it was at a Conservative Shul... what a heavy feeling to have seeing so many BMW's and Benzes while cutting through the parking lot to the Shul [to drive on Shabbat is one thing, to drive a Nazi-sled on such occasion is another!]... Hitler [YS"V] was a major Benz man, parading about town in a premium Benz, always... so yes, just accusations of being a traitor are in the air when we see Jews driving these vehicles [though the moniker of blame may belong to the previous generation or the next latter for failing to endow upon their children a proper Jewish education].
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Jews in Germany have one legitimate function; to visit a raining down of hellfire, extracting justice from the German people who murdered 6 million Jews. -- However, no boots need be laid on the ground; nuke the entire country from above. Germany has sucked down too much of our oxygen for far too long. With the Help of Heaven, the State of Germany will exist only in history books [Russia as well, and and also Britain].