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Kahanist Singles => Jewish Singles => Topic started by: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 02:19:32 PM

Title: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 02:19:32 PM
This is not a religious poll. Just want to know what people think.

Also if you aren't a virgin when you answer this poll, answer based on what you would advise a virgin OR what you would want for your children OR what you would have chosen if you were still a virgin.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 12, 2008, 02:47:59 PM
I think all men and women should remain virgins until marriage.


People can say men and women should stay virgins until marriage  but you can force them to
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: shimon on June 12, 2008, 02:50:36 PM
if everyone practices clebiacy they would be no more people left.
And bringing children to the world is the most important mitzvah in the torah
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 12, 2008, 02:50:52 PM
I think all men and women should remain virgins until marriage.



Yacov, I think that is something which would take place in a Utopian world. I went to a modern orthodox yeshiva in the five towns for high school and I can tell you that you would be very disappointed at what people did there, to say the least. I don't think any of the girls there would of been acceptable for you by the time they graduated.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 12, 2008, 02:51:58 PM
if everyone practices clebiacy they would be no more people left.
And bringing children to the world is the most important mitzvah in the torah

I think they mean not to have sex before you are married
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 12, 2008, 02:52:30 PM
I am pretty sure this will be a long thread. These types of threads are usually pages long.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 12, 2008, 02:53:37 PM
I am pretty sure this will be a long thread. These types of threads are usually pages long.
It probably be like 15 pages :D
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 02:54:03 PM
if everyone practices clebiacy they would be no more people left.
And bringing children to the world is the most important mitzvah in the torah

I think they mean not to have sex before you are married


No i meant celebacy..period!  It's just opposite to "Everyone should have sex all the time."
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 02:55:02 PM
I am pretty sure this will be a long thread. These types of threads are usually pages long.
It probably be like 15 pages :D


wanted to reemerge this topic again but without claiming a ban on something...
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 12, 2008, 02:55:45 PM
if everyone practices clebiacy they would be no more people left.
And bringing children to the world is the most important mitzvah in the torah

I think they mean not to have sex before you are married


No i meant celebacy..period!  It's just opposite to "Everyone should have sex all the time."

Then No if we do that we wont procreate and the Muslims will grow
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 02:57:58 PM
if everyone practices clebiacy they would be no more people left.
And bringing children to the world is the most important mitzvah in the torah

I think they mean not to have sex before you are married


No i meant celebacy..period!  It's just opposite to "Everyone should have sex all the time."

Then No if we do that we wont procreate and the Muslims will grow


well there are some nuts out there who beleive in it and make the act of sex an unwanted sin. It obviously isn't
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 12, 2008, 02:59:53 PM
if everyone practices clebiacy they would be no more people left.
And bringing children to the world is the most important mitzvah in the torah

I think they mean not to have sex before you are married


No i meant celebacy..period!  It's just opposite to "Everyone should have sex all the time."

Then No if we do that we wont procreate and the Muslims will grow


well there are some nuts out there who beleive in it and make the act of sex an unwanted sin. It obviously isn't

They say Sex is a sin ?
Stupid morons ::)
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: דוד בן זאב אריה on June 12, 2008, 03:01:29 PM
I agree with Yacov. But only for Jews I don't want to tell people who aren't religous what to do
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 12, 2008, 03:02:19 PM
Dr Dan I think you should make the topic more clearer because people think you mean no sex until marriage
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Dan on June 12, 2008, 03:09:01 PM
I'll have to abstain form this poll...
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 12, 2008, 03:12:33 PM
I'll have to abstain form this poll...
:::D :::D :::D
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 11:10:01 PM
Dr Dan I think you should make the topic more clearer because people think you mean no sex until marriage

That is what it was..Pre-marital sex means Sex before marraige.  The choice of celebacy means, no sex AT ALL.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 12, 2008, 11:14:32 PM
if everyone practices clebiacy they would be no more people left.
And bringing children to the world is the most important mitzvah in the torah

I think they mean not to have sex before you are married


No i meant celebacy..period!  It's just opposite to "Everyone should have sex all the time."

When you said this it look like you ment not to have sex ever
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 11:17:24 PM
I think that in an idealistic society, sex should NOT be done before marraige.  Our society is so screwed up-Jewish and non Jewish.  Being that it is that way and that most of us live in these societies, pre marital sex should be discouraged.  However, speaking for men, sometimes, they need to get it out of their system in order to be a better husband...Or if possible, marry younger.  Except our society doesn't allow the latter.

The problem here is that there way too much focus on sex and less focus on love.  To many, it is SUCH A SIN to have pre-marital sex that it some will push their children to get married younger so that they dont' live or think in sin.  However, it's NOT JUST about sex!!!  It's unfortunate our society has become too sexified.  It's either something awesome or great or a terrible sin.  It's niether. It's a natural thing that is awesome and definately not a sin.  But sex shouldn't just be sex...that's just for animals to do.  We are humans with souls who understand and can learn love...and that's what it's about. If we can love a single person of the opposite sex and marry them, the sex makes sense...all the rest is really a waste of time and brain and soul.

But here's the clincher: How would I know this if I were still a virgin?  How could I understand this if I stayed a virgin?  In other words, sometimes, some people need to wander the desert for 40 years to appreciate the promised land, rather than go direct straight through.  Sometimes eating from the Tree of Knowledge will enhance our brains to do right and know wrong...Things like that can create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.\

I shoudl add however, that the frustration of not doing it before marraige can also create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 11:18:22 PM
if everyone practices clebiacy they would be no more people left.
And bringing children to the world is the most important mitzvah in the torah

I think they mean not to have sex before you are married


No i meant celebacy..period!  It's just opposite to "Everyone should have sex all the time."

When you said this it look like you ment not to have sex ever

That's whate celebacy is..No sex EVER.  I put that choice up there to be the opposite to sex no matter what.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 12, 2008, 11:33:43 PM
I think all men and women should remain virgins until marriage.



Yacov, I think that is something which would take place in a Utopian world. I went to a modern orthodox yeshiva in the five towns for high school and I can tell you that you would be very disappointed at what people did there, to say the least. I don't think any of the girls there would of been acceptable for you by the time they graduated.

 You went to Yeshiva, never would have guessed. Anyway most Jewish girls are not like that, and it is not nice to generalise and put down our Holy Jewish women like that. Sure their are bad apples, but thank G-d their are also many rightious Jewish women and girls, who bring a lot of merit to the nation of Israel.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 12, 2008, 11:40:08 PM
I think all men and women should remain virgins until marriage.



Yacov, I think that is something which would take place in a Utopian world. I went to a modern orthodox yeshiva in the five towns for high school and I can tell you that you would be very disappointed at what people did there, to say the least. I don't think any of the girls there would of been acceptable for you by the time they graduated.

 You went to Yeshiva, never would have guessed. Anyway most Jewish girls are not like that, and it is not nice to generalise and put down our Holy Jewish women like that. Sure their are bad apples, but thank G-d their are also many rightious Jewish women and girls, who bring a lot of merit to the nation of Israel.

Why wouldn't you of guessed? I didn't say anything bad about them. I stated a fact. Of course if you go to a very frum yeshiva this doesn't happen but in the less religious ones it does tzvi and often. I certainly wasn't putting anyone down and if is seemed that way then I apologize. I am friends with many of the people I met in high school till this day so I certainly didn't mean to speak badly.

Also Tzvi, didn't you realize I knew lots of jewish things? You should of figured it out hehe.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 12:04:31 AM
I think all men and women should remain virgins until marriage.



Yacov, I think that is something which would take place in a Utopian world. I went to a modern orthodox yeshiva in the five towns for high school and I can tell you that you would be very disappointed at what people did there, to say the least. I don't think any of the girls there would of been acceptable for you by the time they graduated.

 You went to Yeshiva, never would have guessed. Anyway most Jewish girls are not like that, and it is not nice to generalise and put down our Holy Jewish women like that. Sure their are bad apples, but thank G-d their are also many rightious Jewish women and girls, who bring a lot of merit to the nation of Israel.

I have heard of the same thing happening in some "orthodox" communities amongst highschool students...either way dont' care who it is, it sickens me.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 12:51:39 AM
I think it's best if all men and all women are virgins until they marry. However, it's more important for women because they have more at risk.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 13, 2008, 12:54:57 AM
I think it's best if all men and all women are virgins until they marry. However, it's more important for women because they have more at risk.
Besides getting pregnant how so
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 12:58:08 AM
I think it's best if all men and all women are virgins until they marry. However, it's more important for women because they have more at risk.
Besides getting pregnant how so

That's the biggest reason. Women also view sex differently than men do. If a woman loses her virginity to a man and then the man leaves or dumps her, she will feel horrible.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 13, 2008, 12:58:57 AM
ONE THING WHAT I CAN SAY IS ITS GOOD TO BE VIRGINS UNTIL MARRIAGE.

1. ITS A MITZVOT

2. ITS NOT A SIN

3. WE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE "SOME PEOPLE" WHO DON'T KNOW THEIR FATHERS OR WHO HAVE 14 YEAR OLD MOMS
Brittany spears sister
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 01:00:18 AM
I don't have a problem with someone being a mother at 14 if they're raised in a society where they're mature adults at this age. In our society such a thing is very perverted and there's no way an American 14 year old is ready to be a mother.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 13, 2008, 01:02:02 AM
ONE THING WHAT I CAN SAY IS ITS GOOD TO BE VIRGINS UNTIL MARRIAGE.

1. ITS A MITZVOT

2. ITS NOT A SIN

3. WE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE "SOME PEOPLE" WHO DON'T KNOW THEIR FATHERS OR WHO HAVE 14 YEAR OLD MOMS
Brittany spears sister


LOL I DIDN'T MEAN HER BUT THATS A GOOD EXAMPLE I MEANT MANY OF OBAMAS SUPPORTERS

They are all scum
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Americanhero1 on June 13, 2008, 01:03:39 AM
I don't have a problem with someone being a mother at 14 if they're raised in a society where they're mature adults at this age. In our society such a thing is very perverted and there's no way an American 14 year old is ready to be a mother.

MY GREAT GRANDMOTHER WAS A MOM AT 14. BY JEWISH LAW A WOMAN CAN MARRY AT 12. BUT AT THAT TIME THE JEWS WERE MUCH MORE DIFFERENT THAN NOW

My grandmother was married at 15 and had a child
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 13, 2008, 01:09:37 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I do not believe that should matter. Of course we are not talking about a whore or something. A regular girl who is not a virgin should not be rejected for that reason alone.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:09:59 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I won't. You know me ......
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:12:39 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I do not believe that should matter. Of course we are not talking about a whore or something. A regular girl who is not a virgin should not be rejected for that reason alone.

G-d forbid. BUT you know what happend to my friend, he and his girlfriend was preparing for a wedding for a year. Finally, when the big day came, next morning she came back to her farther home. Apparently she had sex before and she was affraid to tell it to my friend. I was shocked when I heard that.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:13:13 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I won't. You know me ......

 O0 ;D
check the story above my reply, happened with my Gorsky friend a year ago ...
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 13, 2008, 01:14:16 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I do not believe that should matter. Of course we are not talking about a whore or something. A regular girl who is not a virgin should not be rejected for that reason alone.

G-d forbid. BUT you know what happend to my friend, he and his girlfriend was preparing for a wedding for a year. Finally, when the big day came, next morning she came back to her farther home. Apparently she had sex before and she was affraid to tell it to my friend. I was shocked when I heard that.

Can you explain this story further. I didnt really understand what you wrote. Sorry bout that.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:14:40 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I do not believe that should matter. Of course we are not talking about a whore or something. A regular girl who is not a virgin should not be rejected for that reason alone.


YOUR RIGHT BUT AM SAYING IF THE GIRL LOSES HER VIRGINITY BEFORE MARRIAGE AND HER BOYFRIEND AT THAT TIME DUMPS HER. NOT ONLY WOULD SHE GO CRAZY MIGHT SHE MIGHT BECOME A WHORE

not neseseraly ..... :-\
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:15:42 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I do not believe that should matter. Of course we are not talking about a whore or something. A regular girl who is not a virgin should not be rejected for that reason alone.

G-d forbid. BUT you know what happend to my friend, he and his girlfriend was preparing for a wedding for a year. Finally, when the big day came, next morning she came back to her farther home. Apparently she had sex before and she was affraid to tell it to my friend. I was shocked when I heard that.

Can you explain this story further. I didnt really understand what you wrote. Sorry bout that.

She basically had sex before, and told him after the wedding. Next morning he returned her back to her father.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:16:28 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I do not believe that should matter. Of course we are not talking about a whore or something. A regular girl who is not a virgin should not be rejected for that reason alone.

G-d forbid. BUT you know what happend to my friend, he and his girlfriend was preparing for a wedding for a year. Finally, when the big day came, next morning she came back to her farther home. Apparently she had sex before and she was affraid to tell it to my friend. I was shocked when I heard that.


THEY DIVORCED?

On otpravil ee domoi k ee otcy. Next morning, the guy was waiting for it for a year ....
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:18:54 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I do not believe that should matter. Of course we are not talking about a whore or something. A regular girl who is not a virgin should not be rejected for that reason alone.

G-d forbid. BUT you know what happend to my friend, he and his girlfriend was preparing for a wedding for a year. Finally, when the big day came, next morning she came back to her farther home. Apparently she had sex before and she was affraid to tell it to my friend. I was shocked when I heard that.

Can you explain this story further. I didnt really understand what you wrote. Sorry bout that.

She basically had sex before, and told him after the wedding. Next morning he returned her back to her father.

WHY DIDNT SHE SAY ANYTHING BEFORE

She was apparently affraid ...... :-X
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:20:12 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I do not believe that should matter. Of course we are not talking about a whore or something. A regular girl who is not a virgin should not be rejected for that reason alone.

G-d forbid. BUT you know what happend to my friend, he and his girlfriend was preparing for a wedding for a year. Finally, when the big day came, next morning she came back to her farther home. Apparently she had sex before and she was affraid to tell it to my friend. I was shocked when I heard that.


THEY DIVORCED?

On otpravil ee domoi k ee otcy. Next morning, the guy was waiting for it for a year ....

WHAT WAS HE WAITING FOR?

wedding. what were you thinking about  :::D
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 13, 2008, 01:21:30 AM
Wow, its pretty bad that he would do that to someone just cause they werent a virgin. Unless she told him she was a virgin, I think that guy was very wrong and that the marriage would of failed anyways as he didn't love her.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:24:17 AM
Wow, its pretty bad that he would do that to someone just cause they werent a virgin. Unless she told him she was a version, I think that guy was very wrong and that the marriage would of failed anyways as he didn't love her.

he is a good guy, I know him pritty good. He was always telling his friends that he found the perfect girl, this and that. I am telling you, I was shocked when I hear it.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:25:38 AM


wedding. what were you thinking about  :::D

YOUR WROTE IT LIKE AS IF THEY DIVORCED AND THEN HE WAITED 1 YEAR
[/quote]

no, right away as he found out the same night they devorsed. ( By Gorsky custom you sending wife to the father house. )
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:26:41 AM
Wow, its pretty bad that he would do that to someone just cause they werent a virgin. Unless she told him she was a version, I think that guy was very wrong and that the marriage would of failed anyways as he didn't love her.

he is a good guy, I know him pritty good. He was always telling his friends that he found the perfect girl, this and that. I am telling you, I was shocked when I hear it.

DO I KNOW HIM?
No. He comes to our shoul only on big hollidays.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Daniel Ben Hanania on June 13, 2008, 01:31:26 AM


wedding. what were you thinking about  :::D

YOUR WROTE IT LIKE AS IF THEY DIVORCED AND THEN HE WAITED 1 YEAR

no, right away as he found out the same night they devorsed. ( By Gorsky custom you sending wife to the father house. )

I THINK THATS BY ALL JEWS
[/quote]

Ok, mystery solved
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 01:41:14 AM
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 13, 2008, 02:01:41 AM
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: AsheDina on June 13, 2008, 02:09:07 AM
I think all men and women should remain virgins until marriage.


I am not going to say much, but I agree 100% Yacov. TOTALLY.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: AsheDina on June 13, 2008, 02:17:02 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN

I won't. You know me ......

  BOTH of you, WILL be with wonderful VIRGIN JEWISH G-d Fearing young women.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Mishmaat on June 13, 2008, 02:18:14 AM
Obviously I'm against premarital sex for both moral reasons and for practical reasons. There was a study reported on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/11/teen.std.ap/index.html) that indicated that one in four teenage girls have an STD. That is the fruit of a depraved society that encourages "feel good" wanton amoral behavior. The fleeting pleasure you derive from that selfish act of gratifying the flesh just isn't worth it. Are you truly going to be satisfied? Will that lead to promiscuity? Abstinence requires discipline, but many things in life require discipline. I'd rather be a virgin and wait until marriage rather than screw some chick who I'm going to forget in a couple of years.

From our Torah (the ultimate guide for living):

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, and lay wanton charges against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say: 'I took this woman, and when I came nigh to her, I found not in her the tokens of virginity'; then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate. And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders: 'I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; and, lo, he hath laid wanton charges, saying: I found not in thy daughter the tokens of virginity; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him. And they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel; and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel; then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die; because she hath wrought a wanton deed in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee" (Devarim/Deuteronomy 22:13-21).
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 13, 2008, 02:41:07 AM
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.


It should be discussed before the wedding. I would never marry a woman unless I first knew she was a virgin.



Yacov, if you met a woman who was perfect for you and you trully had feeliing for her, would you end the relationship if you found out she was not a virgin. She will not remain a virgin if she marries anyhow so I dont think a relationship should be based upon this.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 13, 2008, 02:46:33 AM
But the fundamental question is if it is worth not befriending someone who would be perfect for you just because they have engaged in relations already.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Mishmaat on June 13, 2008, 02:54:03 AM

Yacov, if you met a woman who was perfect for you and you trully had feeliing for her, would you end the relationship if you found out she was not a virgin. She will not remain a virgin if she marries anyhow so I dont think a relationship should be based upon this.

I'm not as discriminating as Yacov. I'm willing to marry a non-virgin.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Gruzinit on June 13, 2008, 03:53:51 AM
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.

When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marraige was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young virgine bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believ in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Nic Brookes on June 13, 2008, 05:40:56 AM
But the fundamental question is if it is worth not befriending someone who would be perfect for you just because they have engaged in relations already.


Yes, it is worth it. I would not get close with a woman without knowing she's a virgin first. That's why I shouldn't kiss her before marriage, so I won't form any emotional bonds and then have to dump her after finding out she's not a virgin.

Once you kiss someone, it is devastating if you break up. You become too attached to them. Physical contact with a woman you love should be reserved for marriage only.



What, then, if you find yourself in the situation being described earlier?

If you are told your girlfriend is a virgin but after your wedding night you discover her not to be, what would you do?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 07:18:50 AM
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


Well, with viriginity, I'm not referring to the broken hymen..I'm referring to the psychological aspect of it of "never laying with a man"...or a man never laying with a woman.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 07:22:39 AM
Obviously I'm against premarital sex for both moral reasons and for practical reasons. There was a study reported on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/11/teen.std.ap/index.html) that indicated that one in four teenage girls have an STD. That is the fruit of a depraved society that encourages "feel good" wanton amoral behavior. The fleeting pleasure you derive from that selfish act of gratifying the flesh just isn't worth it. Are you truly going to be satisfied? Will that lead to promiscuity? Abstinence requires discipline, but many things in life require discipline. I'd rather be a virgin and wait until marriage rather than screw some chick who I'm going to forget in a couple of years.

From our Torah (the ultimate guide for living):

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, and lay wanton charges against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say: 'I took this woman, and when I came nigh to her, I found not in her the tokens of virginity'; then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate. And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders: 'I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; and, lo, he hath laid wanton charges, saying: I found not in thy daughter the tokens of virginity; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him. And they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel; and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel; then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die; because she hath wrought a wanton deed in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee" (Devarim/Deuteronomy 22:13-21).

In other words two things:

If she lies about being a virgin, and IT BOTHERS THE HUSBAND, he has the right to return her to her father's home.

It might also imply:

If she lies about being a virgin, but it DOESN'T bother the husband, then he has an option of returning her to her father's home.

Remember, this Torah passage has only to do with the husband being disastisfied and not loving his wife.  Not if he loves her.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: nessuno on June 13, 2008, 09:58:07 AM
I will try to prepare my child for the world in which she lives.
Arm her with knowledge.  A must in this anything goes world.  :D
Yet - I will encourage my child to wait until marriage.
She will not get a green light from me  ;) on pre marital sex.
A lot of parents I know have accepted it as part of, children, growing up... :D
I think it is more important then that.  Maturity and love(maybe marriage) should have something to do with it.  Dr. Dan is right.

I'm not sure that she will heed my advice...but that's what it will be.
It seems to me the most moral path to follow...one that could prevent unwanted pregnancy, illness and regrets.

I have a nephew.  :-[
He is 18 years old.
He just had a baby.  God Bless her.
He has no job.
He does have fancy clothes, a fancy cell phone and an attitude of entitlement.
Great Father material.  He wants to know what he's getting for Father's Day.  I say a 'beating' might be a step in the right direction. Just kidding.

I think parents better start stepping up to the plate as parents.
We have created a generation of children with no moral compass...and we all are paying the price.
SEX is not to be taken lightly.  Think before you act!  ::)




Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: nessuno on June 13, 2008, 10:07:22 AM
...and Yacov - I admire you.  Religious and moral beliefs are important.  You should be respected for holding true to them.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dan on June 13, 2008, 10:24:37 AM
I will try to prepare my child for the world in which she lives.
Arm her with knowledge.  A must in this anything goes world.  :D
Yet - I will encourage my child to wait until marriage.
She will not get a green light from me  ;) on pre marital sex.
A lot of parents I know have accepted it as part of, children, growing up... :D
I think it is more important then that.  Maturity and love(maybe marriage) should have something to do with it.  Dr. Dan is right.

I'm not sure that she will heed my advice...but that's what it will be.
It seems to me the most moral path to follow...one that could prevent unwanted pregnancy, illness and regrets.

I have a nephew.  :-[
He is 18 years old.
He just had a baby.  G-d Bless her.
He has no job.
He does have fancy clothes, a fancy cell phone and an attitude of entitlement.
Great Father material.  He wants to know what he's getting for Father's Day.  I say a 'beating' might be a step in the right direction. Just kidding.

I think parents better start stepping up to the plate as parents.
We have created a generation of children with no moral compass...and we all are paying the price.
SEX is not to be taken lightly.  Think before you act!  ::)





  Great post Bullcat!
 I said it before  so I'll say it again...
  'the people that shouldn't be having children ARE and the people that should ARE NOT' that mainly stems form the lack of morality and spiritual guidance. We're in Big trouble if we expect the Next Generation to be the great pioneers that the US once had.
 
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: nessuno on June 13, 2008, 11:00:41 AM
You are so right Dan!
We do seem to be in big trouble.
We are unprepared to make sacrifices - even for the sake of morality and religious beliefs.
The anything goes/feel good attitude is killing us.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 11:04:11 AM
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.

I don't see what the big deal is over that being intact anyway since it's going to be broken the first night if she does have it intact.  :::D What about the decades following?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 11:05:20 AM
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.


It should be discussed before the wedding. I would never marry a woman unless I first knew she was a virgin.



What if she WAS a virgin, but didn't have an intact hymen because she was born without one, or it broke in a nonsexual way? Would you accuse her of lying to you and divorce her and not believe her?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:18:33 AM
Yacov, I think that is something which would take place in a Utopian world. I went to a modern orthodox yeshiva in the five towns for high school and I can tell you that you would be very disappointed at what people did there, to say the least. I don't think any of the girls there would of been acceptable for you by the time they graduated.
DownwithIslam, G-d expects more from you than the hypocrites. Just because they are frauds doesn't mean that we can't save ourselves for marriage. The Bible commands it for Jews and Gentiles.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:20:29 AM
well there are some nuts out there who beleive in it and make the act of sex an unwanted sin. It obviously isn't
Yeah, like the Shaker cult (dying out now, for obvious reasons).
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:22:36 AM
You went to Yeshiva, never would have guessed.
This is pure and simple trolling and was completely uncalled for. You owe DownwithIslam an apology right now.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:31:24 AM
I think that in an idealistic society, sex should NOT be done before marraige.  Our society is so screwed up-Jewish and non Jewish.  Being that it is that way and that most of us live in these societies, pre marital sex should be discouraged.  However, speaking for men, sometimes, they need to get it out of their system in order to be a better husband...Or if possible, marry younger.  Except our society doesn't allow the latter.

The problem here is that there way too much focus on sex and less focus on love.  To many, it is SUCH A SIN to have pre-marital sex that it some will push their children to get married younger so that they dont' live or think in sin.  However, it's NOT JUST about sex!!!  It's unfortunate our society has become too sexified.  It's either something awesome or great or a terrible sin.  It's niether. It's a natural thing that is awesome and definately not a sin.  But sex shouldn't just be sex...that's just for animals to do.  We are humans with souls who understand and can learn love...and that's what it's about. If we can love a single person of the opposite sex and marry them, the sex makes sense...all the rest is really a waste of time and brain and soul.

But here's the clincher: How would I know this if I were still a virgin?  How could I understand this if I stayed a virgin?  In other words, sometimes, some people need to wander the desert for 40 years to appreciate the promised land, rather than go direct straight through.  Sometimes eating from the Tree of Knowledge will enhance our brains to do right and know wrong...Things like that can create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.\

I shoudl add however, that the frustration of not doing it before marraige can also create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.
Dr. Dan, the problem with all of the above is that this is all how the world wants us to think. There is no reason why people need to sexually experiment in order to know themselves better, or prepare themselves for marriage. That is a cultural lie that comes straight from Satan. I guarantee you--check the divorce rate for people who were sexually involved prior to marriage and those who saved themselves.

It's really not too difficult for two virgins to be sexually aware and conscious while remaining pure. Two virgins can have frank and open discussions about the birds and the bees and gauge each other's needs/likes/dislikes long before marriage and use this to determine whether or not they are right for each other. All it takes is a willingness to share and make ourselves vulnerable before someone we are interested in.

It is so much harder to remain pure in this day and age than at any time before because our culture is so flooded and saturated with sex--billboards for strip clubs, everything on TV, everything in the movies, etc. It's difficult to completely abstain from the pop culture--or is it? You would be surprised at how much crap we willingly give access to. Maybe the answer to self-control is as easy as turning off the lame sitcoms.

Finally, Dan, I actually do think early marriage is an answer--heck, I wanted to marry at fifteen if you can get my drift.  ;) Unfortunately, teens in our society cannot support themselves, and are not socially trained to have that kind of maturity at that age (whereas in most of human history, people have been heading households at fourteen or so). They certainly are capable of that kind of responsibility, but nobody cares to teach it to them. So, it's just an intriguing theory at this point (though I think probably a very effective one).  :(

Chaimfan
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:32:31 AM
HOW MANY OF YOU (GUYS OR GIRLS) WOULD MARRY A NON-VIRGIN
I would prefer a virgin, but will not rule out someone who isn't, and has repented, and is saving herself from this point forward.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:34:40 AM
She basically had sex before, and told him after the wedding. Next morning he returned her back to her father.
Well, I think what he did was shallow, but he was deceived. She should have been honest with him about that. Personally I point-blank ask women in whom I have interest about their sexual history. Chaimfan never has a problem being blunt or demanding bluntness from others.  ;)
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: q_q_ on June 13, 2008, 11:37:43 AM
You went to Yeshiva, never would have guessed.
This is pure and simple trolling and was completely uncalled for. You owe DownwithIslam an apology right now.

It wasn't polite, but there is a history.. You(CF) , DWI,  against satmar, and Tzvi.   A moderator locked that thread, so it never got finished..   You are not an unbias charachter

DWI has not made many Torah posts, and he has made many posts. So it really is not guessable that he went to yeshiva.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:38:56 AM
I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.
I could accept a non-virgin who is honest about it and has repented, but I could not take being lied to. Now, my vows are my vows, so I wouldn't divorce over it, but I would be pissed.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:42:38 AM
This is a split topic with me. I am not innocent, but I do believe that a person should wait until marriage. I have much more respect for a person that remains a virgin until then.
You know that it is never too late with G-d. You can save yourself from this point forward.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: nessuno on June 13, 2008, 11:44:28 AM
I think that in an idealistic society, sex should NOT be done before marraige.  Our society is so screwed up-Jewish and non Jewish.  Being that it is that way and that most of us live in these societies, pre marital sex should be discouraged.  However, speaking for men, sometimes, they need to get it out of their system in order to be a better husband...Or if possible, marry younger.  Except our society doesn't allow the latter.

The problem here is that there way too much focus on sex and less focus on love.  To many, it is SUCH A SIN to have pre-marital sex that it some will push their children to get married younger so that they dont' live or think in sin.  However, it's NOT JUST about sex!!!  It's unfortunate our society has become too sexified.  It's either something awesome or great or a terrible sin.  It's niether. It's a natural thing that is awesome and definately not a sin.  But sex shouldn't just be sex...that's just for animals to do.  We are humans with souls who understand and can learn love...and that's what it's about. If we can love a single person of the opposite sex and marry them, the sex makes sense...all the rest is really a waste of time and brain and soul.

But here's the clincher: How would I know this if I were still a virgin?  How could I understand this if I stayed a virgin?  In other words, sometimes, some people need to wander the desert for 40 years to appreciate the promised land, rather than go direct straight through.  Sometimes eating from the Tree of Knowledge will enhance our brains to do right and know wrong...Things like that can create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.\

I shoudl add however, that the frustration of not doing it before marraige can also create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.
Dr. Dan, the problem with all of the above is that this is all how the world wants us to think. There is no reason why people need to sexually experiment in order to know themselves better, or prepare themselves for marriage. That is a cultural lie that comes straight from Satan. I guarantee you--check the divorce rate for people who were sexually involved prior to marriage and those who saved themselves.

It's really not too difficult for two virgins to be sexually aware and conscious while remaining pure. Two virgins can have frank and open discussions about the birds and the bees and gauge each other's needs/likes/dislikes long before marriage and use this to determine whether or not they are right for each other. All it takes is a willingness to share and make ourselves vulnerable before someone we are interested in.

It is so much harder to remain pure in this day and age than at any time before because our culture is so flooded and saturated with sex--billboards for strip clubs, everything on TV, everything in the movies, etc. It's difficult to completely abstain from the pop culture--or is it? You would be surprised at how much crap we willingly give access to. Maybe the answer to self-control is as easy as turning off the lame sitcoms.

Finally, Dan, I actually do think early marriage is an answer--heck, I wanted to marry at fifteen if you can get my drift.  ;) Unfortunately, teens in our society cannot support themselves, and are not socially trained to have that kind of maturity at that age (whereas in most of human history, people have been heading households at fourteen or so). They certainly are capable of that kind of responsibility, but nobody cares to teach it to them. So, it's just an intriguing theory at this point (though I think probably a very effective one).  :(

Chaimfan
Very interesting C.F..
Great Post!
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 11:45:03 AM
This is a split topic with me. I am not innocent, but I do believe that a person should wait until marriage. I have much more respect for a person that remains a virgin until then.
You know that it is never too late with G-d. You can save yourself from this point forward.

I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in God's eyes.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:48:11 AM
I have a nephew.  :-[
He is 18 years old.
He just had a baby.  G-d Bless her.
He has no job.
He does have fancy clothes, a fancy cell phone and an attitude of entitlement.
Great Father material.  He wants to know what he's getting for Father's Day.  I say a 'beating' might be a step in the right direction. Just kidding.

I think parents better start stepping up to the plate as parents.
We have created a generation of children with no moral compass...and we all are paying the price.
SEX is not to be taken lightly.  Think before you act!  ::)
::) Eesh. Yuck. Egads. $1 solution, anyone? (J/K, Bullcat.)  ;)
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 11:48:53 AM
Well, with viriginity, I'm not referring to the broken hymen..I'm referring to the psychological aspect of it of "never laying with a man"...or a man never laying with a woman.

I think that's how any sane, modern person should view it, but the Muslims are barbarians and probably believe if a girl doesn't have an intact hymen then she must have had sex.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:49:24 AM
I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in G-d's eyes.
It is the same thing as being a virgin in G-d's eyes. If we sincerely repent and change our hearts, He will accept it.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 11:50:05 AM
I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in G-d's eyes.
It is the same thing as being a virgin in G-d's eyes. If we sincerely repent and change our hearts, He will accept it.

I agree with you C.F. :)
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 13, 2008, 11:50:50 AM
I think that's how any sane, modern person should view it, but the Muslims are barbarians and probably believe if a girl doesn't have an intact hymen then she must have had sex.

Yeah, and Muslims also screw goats and donkeys and, in many cases, other men. I don't think any sane humans live by Islamic anatomical standards.  ;D
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: nessuno on June 13, 2008, 12:01:35 PM
I have a nephew.  :-[
He is 18 years old.
He just had a baby.  G-d Bless her.
He has no job.
He does have fancy clothes, a fancy cell phone and an attitude of entitlement.
Great Father material.  He wants to know what he's getting for Father's Day.  I say a 'beating' might be a step in the right direction. Just kidding.

I think parents better start stepping up to the plate as parents.
We have created a generation of children with no moral compass...and we all are paying the price.
SEX is not to be taken lightly.  Think before you act!  ::)
::) Eesh. Yuck. Egads. $1 solution, anyone? (J/K, Bullcat.)  ;)
Someone should have suggested the $1 solution to him.
My brother-in-law perhaps  ;)
He is just not smart enough to figure things like that out on his own.
Obviously  ::)
Doesn't take brains to become a FATHER.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 01:20:26 PM
I think that in an idealistic society, sex should NOT be done before marraige.  Our society is so screwed up-Jewish and non Jewish.  Being that it is that way and that most of us live in these societies, pre marital sex should be discouraged.  However, speaking for men, sometimes, they need to get it out of their system in order to be a better husband...Or if possible, marry younger.  Except our society doesn't allow the latter.

The problem here is that there way too much focus on sex and less focus on love.  To many, it is SUCH A SIN to have pre-marital sex that it some will push their children to get married younger so that they dont' live or think in sin.  However, it's NOT JUST about sex!!!  It's unfortunate our society has become too sexified.  It's either something awesome or great or a terrible sin.  It's niether. It's a natural thing that is awesome and definately not a sin.  But sex shouldn't just be sex...that's just for animals to do.  We are humans with souls who understand and can learn love...and that's what it's about. If we can love a single person of the opposite sex and marry them, the sex makes sense...all the rest is really a waste of time and brain and soul.

But here's the clincher: How would I know this if I were still a virgin?  How could I understand this if I stayed a virgin?  In other words, sometimes, some people need to wander the desert for 40 years to appreciate the promised land, rather than go direct straight through.  Sometimes eating from the Tree of Knowledge will enhance our brains to do right and know wrong...Things like that can create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.\

I shoudl add however, that the frustration of not doing it before marraige can also create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.
Dr. Dan, the problem with all of the above is that this is all how the world wants us to think. There is no reason why people need to sexually experiment in order to know themselves better, or prepare themselves for marriage. That is a cultural lie that comes straight from Satan. I guarantee you--check the divorce rate for people who were sexually involved prior to marriage and those who saved themselves.

It's really not too difficult for two virgins to be sexually aware and conscious while remaining pure. Two virgins can have frank and open discussions about the birds and the bees and gauge each other's needs/likes/dislikes long before marriage and use this to determine whether or not they are right for each other. All it takes is a willingness to share and make ourselves vulnerable before someone we are interested in.

It is so much harder to remain pure in this day and age than at any time before because our culture is so flooded and saturated with sex--billboards for strip clubs, everything on TV, everything in the movies, etc. It's difficult to completely abstain from the pop culture--or is it? You would be surprised at how much crap we willingly give access to. Maybe the answer to self-control is as easy as turning off the lame sitcoms.

Finally, Dan, I actually do think early marriage is an answer--heck, I wanted to marry at fifteen if you can get my drift.  ;) Unfortunately, teens in our society cannot support themselves, and are not socially trained to have that kind of maturity at that age (whereas in most of human history, people have been heading households at fourteen or so). They certainly are capable of that kind of responsibility, but nobody cares to teach it to them. So, it's just an intriguing theory at this point (though I think probably a very effective one).  :(

Chaimfan

Good post.

I feel that in an idealistic society, you would be 100% right.  But we live in evil times..in order to get to this idealism, it has to be gradual and not extreme over night.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 01:33:44 PM
This is a split topic with me. I am not innocent, but I do believe that a person should wait until marriage. I have much more respect for a person that remains a virgin until then.
You know that it is never too late with G-d. You can save yourself from this point forward.

I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in G-d's eyes.

If you allow me, I can tell you about my personal experience. 

WHen i was only a few years younger than Yaacov, I had the same idealism of waiting till marraige.  And I think I probably would have been able to pull it off until I thought I met the girl of my dreams.  We couldn't wait.  Marraige was out of the question for us.  We were both still in school. Niether of us had really ever dated many other before us.  We did it.  Thank Gd, it didn't work out for us.  But a pandora box opened and now I knew what it felt like.

Today, whether I were dating a virgin or not, it would be between me and her what we decide to do before marraige.  But the reality is, it's much much much much better even if in love, to wait till that Ketubah is signed and the marraige is consumated.  And for me, it's really really really really really hard to not do it being in love with someone and knowing what it feels like already to do it. 

However, there is a conflict with doing it to get it out of the system versus waiting completeley.  In the first relationship, I had nothing out of my system.  I was with a really nice girl, but she wasn't perfect for me.  She and her family had major flaws, but I was too innocent and blind to notice them.  If it had gotten to the point that we got married after several years of dating, I can assure all of you, there would be potential for divorce or a very unhappy marriage. Maturity was an issue, but it was also the desire to go out there and see what's out there. Luckily I have had the opportunity to date a lot since. 

Now, today, I have the experience, I have the knowledge, I'm much more mature.  I know what I want.  And now that I do know what I want and have experience, it's good for a woman who wants to be with a man who has it out of his system and has knowledge and experience on what to do in bed.  Some women, especially the ones who are still virgins until marraige, want to be with a man that knows what to do.  They don't want the "blind to lead the blind".

I"m not saying that guys should now just go out and have sex before marraige.  In fact, a couple can figure things out on their own and share the hottest sex imaginable as they grow older and wiser.

So anyway, my point is that i agree wtih CF and Bullcat and any parent with young kids and teenagers... Please encourage them to wait till they get married. Don't let peer pressure get to them.  Make sure they fall in love with the right person...not just with anyone of the opposite sex.  The right person with the right family.  Better that if they are virgins at that time they are with someone who can hold back until the marraige is consumated.  And better if he is able to provide for a home for his family than be still in school living in a tiny dorm room.  In modern times, it's not easy to have all that all at once.
That's the only thing I disagree wtih with CF. 

In reality, however, I would want a study to be done on the success of marraiges with those who had premarital sex either with their future spouses or multiple partners before they got married versus those who stayed virgins, and see if there is statistic significance.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 13, 2008, 04:01:48 PM
For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 04:32:14 PM
For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism... Please no more videos...Just tell us what you know.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 13, 2008, 04:44:20 PM
For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism...

 Yes, and no. Its exactly the same thing as a women getting married and then being seperated from her husband, can we say and would any Rav (Orthodox) get her married before she get's a Ketuva, and is properly seperated from her real husband?
 Can we say that she regrets ever marrying her first husband and thus is allowed now for another automaticaly?
 Or even a women who's husband does not have a messenger (the whole process like they have done a long time ago, when the men would go to the army and he was missing for some time, and she is given a gett (divorce paper) , and the husband is lost, the women remains an Aguna, and cannot marry unless their were proper witnesses, etc that he is dead.
 
  I am not "super Ultra Orthodox"  ;D , and what I am saying is not that. Im not even bringing Misrash or Zohar on the severities of these sins, this is simple- Pshat Halacha and if one does want to do Tishuva it is possible, but before one would marry or date a girl who has done these things in the past should ponder the complexities of the problems that would come because of just one act. First find all the man she slept with, get them divorced, do this and then do that.... and on top of that still expecialy for a women her soul is attached to the first man she was with, and it will have an affect on their relationship, on their chidren, and on their eternity.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 04:46:53 PM
For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism...

 Yes, and no. Its exactly the same thing as a women getting married and then being seperated from her husband, can we say and would any Rav (Orthodox) get her married before she get's a Ketuva, and is properly seperated from her real husband?
 Can we say that she regrets ever marrying her first husband and thus is allowed now for another automaticaly?
 Or even a women who's husband does not have a messenger (the whole process like they have done a long time ago, when the men would go to the army and he was missing for some time, and she is given a gett (divorce paper) , and the husband is lost, the women remains an Aguna, and cannot marry unless their were proper witnesses, etc that he is dead.
 
  I am not "super Ultra Orthodox"  ;D , and what I am saying is not that. Im not even bringing Misrash or Zohar on the severities of these sins, this is simple- Pshat Halacha and if one does want to do Tishuva it is possible, but before one would marry or date a girl who has done these things in the past should ponder the complexities of the problems that would come because of just one act. First find all the man she slept with, get them divorced, do this and then do that.... and on top of that still expecialy for a women her soul is attached to the first man she was with, and it will have an affect on their relationship, on their chidren, and on their eternity.

Thank you for the explanation. It's a worthy point of view.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: TruthSpreader on June 13, 2008, 06:29:14 PM
I think all men and women should wait until after they are married before even thinking about having sex.

Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 14, 2008, 10:33:27 PM
Re:  "...ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism..."

That's right!

Have sex out of the restrictions placed on you by Torah, and you are going to hell and burn in torment and sulfur fire for eternity!

And if you have a cigarette after the "sex", you're not only going to burn in eternal hell, but you're going to do it exactly 10 years earlier than you would have had you not smoked that cigarette.

Just look at Tim Russert -- that's what sinners have to look forward to!
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 14, 2008, 10:50:14 PM
SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim-

Tzvi.  There needs to be kavanah.  In this day and age, you cannot say that a single Jewish woman and man lying together after a wild night on the town was ACTUALLY them getting married.  It wasn't.  It was them lying together.  There is a phrase that the man says to announce it to mekadesh the woman.  This is how it is done today.  Am I wrong?  You can't impose the old standards on today and say retroactively all these having premarital sex are actually marrying each other without realizing it..... Can you?    Wouldn't that be sort of throwing the torah she bal peh out the window?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 14, 2008, 11:37:12 PM

Good post.

I feel that in an idealistic society, you would be 100% right.  But we live in evil times..in order to get to this idealism, it has to be gradual and not extreme over night.
Why thank you. I do know what you are getting at, but it's not that complicated, at least to begin with. In the short term, there is nothing wrong with telling average citizens to keep their pants zipped.

In the longer term we can discuss the various social problems that encourage fornication. But nothing takes away from the fact that we all possess self-control; we are not beasts.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 14, 2008, 11:40:54 PM
Better that if they are virgins at that time they are with someone who can hold back until the marraige is consumated.  And better if he is able to provide for a home for his family than be still in school living in a tiny dorm room.  In modern times, it's not easy to have all that all at once.
That's the only thing I disagree wtih with CF. 
Where do you disagree with me? I never denied that it is extremely difficult for the average student to be able to provide and establish a home. It sounds like we agree.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 12:11:18 AM
SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim-

 There is a phrase that the man says to announce it to mekadesh the woman.  This is how it is done today.  Am I wrong?  You can't impose the old standards on today and say retroactively all these having premarital sex are actually marrying each other without realizing it..... Can you?    Wouldn't that be sort of throwing the torah she bal peh out the window?

 Yes, and that would mean that if a man says to a women mekadesh me, and gives a gift (worth more then 2 cents) even as a joke, it has been said that it is a problem, and their was a case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (where he was actualy lenient because their was only 1 kosher witness), but it was a problem for the girl because she wasn't alowed to get married in Israel, and the guy was trying to get as much $ from her as possible (I think it is called extortion).
  About the Torah She Baal Pe- the first page dealing with Marriages- Mesehet "Kiddushim" - says that to acquire (get married) to a girl is one of 3 ways. 1- Have relations with her, 2- through an item, where you state its for a marriage and she accepts it, and the third I forgot.

  But whatever, I am NOT stating exact halacha, because I am not qualified, BUT I am bringing what I know, so people can see the seriousness of this, and then for sure a good Rav and Beit Din would have to decide on how to handle the matter properly (and on top of that, now its also an embarrasment the women would probably go through admitting what she has done, but still it has to be done, but its such an important matter.)
 
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 15, 2008, 12:22:40 AM
Yeah, I see what you're saying.  ANd I'm familiar somewhat with the similar cases to what happened with Rabbi Yosef.   People saying that phrase as a joke is not a joking matter.   At all.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 15, 2008, 12:24:53 AM
Also I don't know for sure, but I just don't think it's actually halachically binding as an actual "marriage" today when a sexual act was done.  Of course I am not an authority and could also be wrong... But in terms of how serious it is or how serious a sexual act is , you are definitely right on that point.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 12:32:06 AM
Yeah, I see what you're saying.  ANd I'm familiar somewhat with the similar cases to what happened with Rabbi Yosef.   People saying that phrase as a joke is not a joking matter.   At all.

 Thats the problem with people in todays society. Everything is a joke for them. People do not realise the seriousness of their actions, and how one "joke" can affect a persons life in this world and the worlds to come. That case by the way had nothing to do with them having any physical contact, but even with a few words, the girl almost fell in the category where she would not be alowed to get married halahicaly (which in Israel means at all), unless she would give the guy a HUGG amount of money, or possibly this would lead to murder since having him dead would free her, or a number of many other problems, and this is just a few words, how much more soo having physical relations.
 Thats why Jews should be educated in this field, and also all of the Torah so to make life soo much easier for themselves, their children , etc.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Scriabin on June 15, 2008, 12:51:02 AM
This subject is boring.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 01:02:25 AM
Yeah, I see what you're saying.  ANd I'm familiar somewhat with the similar cases to what happened with Rabbi Yosef.   People saying that phrase as a joke is not a joking matter.   At all.

 Thats the problem with people in todays society. Everything is a joke for them. People do not realise the seriousness of their actions, and how one "joke" can affect a persons life in this world and the worlds to come. That case by the way had nothing to do with them having any physical contact, but even with a few words, the girl almost fell in the category where she would not be alowed to get married halahicaly (which in Israel means at all), unless she would give the guy a HUGG amount of money, or possibly this would lead to murder since having him dead would free her, or a number of many other problems, and this is just a few words, how much more soo having physical relations.
 Thats why Jews should be educated in this field, and also all of the Torah so to make life soo much easier for themselves, their children , etc.


Did she participate in the joke or did the man just say Harei At... to her without her approval? Was she even his girlfriend? And why would she have to give him money? A Jewish man has to pay his wife to divorce her, not the other way around.



 She participated obviously, and took it.  ;D imagine if her consent wouldn't matter, any guy could just come up to any girl and force her to marry him  :P .
 I dont know if they were boyfriend girlfriend.
  Yea, but in this case he wasn't alowing her to get divorced, and luckily for her their was only one kosher (defined by being Shomer Shabb-t in Halacha) witness. And he was just saying no I will not divorce you, unless you pay me X amount of money, and if not you cant ever marry another man.
  Normaly yes, but not always. It depends on the contract- "Ketuva" that they have. And also if she follows it correctly. For example if the husband decides to move to Israel and she refuses, he is alowed to divorce her without the Ketuva $. Or another example- if she disobays the Torah law, for example she dresses immodestly where other men see her, technicaly she also forfeits her rights. And another case- if she decides that the $ she makes, she is incharge of and not her husband, then the husband does not have to support her, nor if they are seperated does he have to give the $ written down and agreed in the Ketuva. (But its the wifes choice on whether the $ she makes belongs to her husband, and he has to support her, or if she is financialy independent, but he does not owe her anything financially during and after mariage.) and their are many many other examples.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 15, 2008, 01:54:17 AM
When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marraige was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young virgine bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believ in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.
Gruzinit, truly this is a revolting and sickening anecdote. These people, who treated your mother like they did, are as far as I am concerned plain and simple rodefs--no better than the Muslims. They deserve to burn in hell forever if they do not truly repent of their ways. At the same time, overwhelmingly most virginity/promiscuity debates in the West do not fall within those extreme circumstances. Average people who have sex outside of marriage or who divorce do so entirely out of their own fickleness and flippancy, and they should be judged--if they do not repent and stop living that way.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Gruzinit on June 15, 2008, 02:00:45 AM
Gruzinit's mother was innocent because she has sex in marriage. Any woman who had sex in marriage and got divorced is innocent, no matter how young she was and what the circumstances of the marriage were.



My mother's innocence wasn't a matter to these people. They and their families considered her as damaged goods.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:23:30 AM
Not to get too graphic but you can't know for sure whether someone is a virgin or not simply based on a certain thing being intact or not. It can be broken in many nonsexual ways.

When I hear of the price that "non virgins" have to pay in Arab countries, I always think of a young virgin girl having sex with her husband for the first time, the first man she's ever had sex with, maybe even someone she loves, and everything going suddenly, horrible wrong, with him accusing her of not being a virgin (wrongly) because there's no "blood on the sheets" and no intact you-know-what when he does you know what.


I agree with you rubystars. This whole idea is not something I am comfortable with. How could someone throw his bride out simply because she was not a virgin? I am sure these types of marriages won't last anyways as he clearly couldn't give a damn about her.

When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marraige was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young virgine bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believ in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.
I agree with you. This is what I was trying to bring in my few posts in this thread.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Gruzinit on June 15, 2008, 02:25:26 AM
When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marriage was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young Virginie bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believe in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.
Gruzinit, truly this is a revolting and sickening anecdote. These people, who treated your mother like they did, are as far as I am concerned plain and simple rodefs--no better than the Muslims. They deserve to burn in hell forever if they do not truly repent of their ways. At the same time, overwhelmingly most virginity/promiscuity debates in the West do not fall within those extreme circumstances. Average people who have sex outside of marriage or who divorce do so entirely out of their own fickleness and flippancy, and they should be judged--if they do not repent and stop living that way.


But my mother's circumstance is not as extreme as you think C.F. I've seen many cases like this, where Georgian families did not want their children to get involved will certain women who were divorced, and/or had a child from a previous marriage. In most of these cases, the men were not virgins (or shall we say, had been around the block).

One family I know realized their son truly loved his girlfriend, who had a 5-year-old daughter form her previous marriage and acquiesced because she truly made their son happy. They have grown to love her and shortly after the couple wed, they welcomed a beautiful grandson
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:34:02 AM
When my mother was 16-years-old, she was forced into an arranged marriage. The marriage was horrid from the start, and within a year my mother got a divorce.

After her divorce, some me in the local village thought that just because she was a divorcee, it meant she was a whore. When men did approach her, they made it obvious that they solely wanted sex, and had no intention of courting her or considering her for marriage, they wanted a young Virginie bride for that. To say she was devastated would be an understatement, it angers me beyond belief remembering the pain in my mother's voice as she told how men thought she was worthless, when she has more dignity and grace than all of them combined.

My mother suffered and was subjected to cruelty for what, a membrane of skin? I'm not saying people should have sex with numerous partners, I truly believe in abstinence, but if a man could not love me because over something as petty as that, then i doubt he is much of a man at all.
Gruzinit, truly this is a revolting and sickening anecdote. These people, who treated your mother like they did, are as far as I am concerned plain and simple rodefs--no better than the Muslims. They deserve to burn in hell forever if they do not truly repent of their ways. At the same time, overwhelmingly most virginity/promiscuity debates in the West do not fall within those extreme circumstances. Average people who have sex outside of marriage or who divorce do so entirely out of their own fickleness and flippancy, and they should be judged--if they do not repent and stop living that way.


But my mother's circumstance is not as extreme as you think C.F. I've seen many cases like this, where Georgian families did not want their children to get involved will certain women who were divorced, and/or had a child from a previous marriage. In most of these cases, the men were not virgins (or shall we say, had been around the block).

One family I know realized their son truly loved his girlfriend, who had a 5-year-old daughter form her previous marriage and acquiesced because she truly made their son happy. They have grown to love her and shortly after the couple wed, they welcomed a beautiful grandson


I think they are hypocrites if their sons weren't virgins themselves. I don't believe in a double standard. I only want to marry a virgin because I myself am a virgin. But if the men you mentioned didn't mind marrying a non-virgin or especially if they themselves weren't virgins, there's nothing wrong with it.

And there's nothing wrong with a non-virgin woman who is divorced. It's not like she slept around. I personally thought would only want to marry a virgin who was never married because I want a woman in my own situation.

Yacov that might prevent you from finding your soulmate as you are seriously narrowing down your list.

Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:34:46 AM
Yacov its impossible to know if a man is a virgin unless he has an std or something.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 15, 2008, 02:37:29 AM

Yacov that might prevent you from finding your soulmate as you are seriously narrowing down your list.

It's not narrowing it down THAT much, plus you can never be too picky
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:38:45 AM

Yacov that might prevent you from finding your soulmate as you are seriously narrowing down your list.

It's not narrowing it down THAT much, plus you can never be too picky

Of course it is. Only in the most sincerely religious homes will he find this hehe.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:40:03 AM
I am honestly just trying to help yacov. Sometimes when a person is too picky, he misses the opportunity when it arises. It would be a shame if yacov turned away a woman that he otherwise liked just because she wasn't a virgin.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 15, 2008, 02:41:59 AM
Gruzinit's mother was innocent because she has sex in marriage. Any woman who had sex in marriage and got divorced is innocent, no matter how young she was and what the circumstances of the marriage were.


Yacov, you are missing the point. Gruzinit shared something very awful and traumatic that happened in her mother's life. Yes, it is good for all people to abstain before marriage, but she was trying to raise a point--could you just agree with it for a second?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:42:21 AM
Yacov its impossible to know if a man is a virgin unless he has an std or something.


That's true but righteous women should ask men if they are virgin before getting engaged just like I would ask a woman before getting engaged.



would it bother them?

I dont believe it would. I don't think most women would care as long as the man is not some shvartza who has slept with 5000 shvartza "women."
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:45:29 AM
Yacov its impossible to know if a man is a virgin unless he has an std or something.


That's true but righteous women should ask men if they are virgins before getting engaged just like I would ask a woman before getting engaged.

Would it bother them?


It would if they're normal.



I too am shaken up by gruzinits story. It is a shame that some people are crazy enough to destroy a persons life like that. What they did to gruzinits mother is a true sin that they CANNOT repent for. Lets say someone makes a mistake and sleeps around, hashem forgives if they repent. When you hurt another person, their is no way to repent unless the person himself forgives.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 15, 2008, 02:46:50 AM
I don't think it is wrong to PREFER a virgin so long as you do not RULE OUT someone who made sexual mistakes in the past that they have now repented of--either sex.

On the other hand, I think that anyone who defends a past sexual experience in any way--even if it was just one--isn't fit to marry a Muslim Nazi.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 15, 2008, 02:47:09 AM
Yacov its impossible to know if a man is a virgin unless he has an std or something.


That's true but righteous women should ask men if they are virgin before getting engaged just like I would ask a woman before getting engaged.



would it bother them?

I dont believe it would. I don't think most women would care as long as the man is not some shvartza who has slept with 5000 shvartza "women."

As funny as that comment is, I think Yacov is looking for a woman whom that WOULD bother.  And for some it would.  He's looking for a sincere religious girl, I can't fault him for that.   If he was like a 40-something divorcee, G-d forbid, he maybe couldn't narrow down so much but he has a right to be picky if you ask me.   I will also look for the same myself.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:47:26 AM
Yacov, would you marry a woman who has repented over and over again for her sin? Let say a woman truly begs forgivenes from hashem for her previous immorality, would you consider that woman if she was otherwise good for you?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 15, 2008, 02:48:27 AM
If Yacov is truly a virgin, I don't blame him for desiring the same, but I wish we would all be open to people who have made mistakes and repented of them.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: DownwithIslam on June 15, 2008, 02:49:31 AM
I don't think it is wrong to PREFER a virgin so long as you do not RULE OUT someone who made sexual mistakes in the past that they have now repented of--either sex.

On the other hand, I think that anyone who defends a past sexual experience in any way--even if it was just one--isn't fit to marry a Muslim Nazi.

Chaimfan, I think even a deformed cripled camel is too good for a muzzy. With those beasts, anything goes.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 15, 2008, 02:51:14 AM
Well... there are some people who don't morally deserve anyone other than a Muslim Nazi. I'm sure you would agree with me that the dog Adam Shapiro is perfectly suited to that she-camel he wed.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 15, 2008, 02:53:54 AM

Only if I was divorced and looking to get re-married.


Yacov, I fear that with an attitude that extreme that G-d might just withhold a wife from you.

You can ask G-d for a virgin--but if you refuse to forgive someone for something they truly and deeply regret and have changed from, why should G-d forgive you for any wrong thing you have done?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 04:19:51 AM
Better that if they are virgins at that time they are with someone who can hold back until the marraige is consumated.  And better if he is able to provide for a home for his family than be still in school living in a tiny dorm room.  In modern times, it's not easy to have all that all at once.
That's the only thing I disagree wtih with CF. 
Where do you disagree with me? I never denied that it is extremely difficult for the average student to be able to provide and establish a home. It sounds like we agree.

Somewhere in your post you entertained the fact that peopel shoudl be married younger.  I personally think it's not a good idea since we live in more modern times in the sense that more people now have access to a college education and post graduate education.  One shoudl not get married if he cannot afford to take care of a family.  One must build a home for himself, so to speak, before he can marry.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 04:25:36 AM
By the way, I think women should also refuse to marry men who are not virgins.



Are you trying to say that a non virgin's tishuva on Yom Kippur is moot?  That if a man had sex and realizes and is sorry for doing it to Gd, a virgin should refuse marrying him?! Even if he is relitively righteous otherwise?

And she shoudl choose a virgin man who might otherwise be evil over a more righteous non virgin? 

Come on now...that's not cool, Yaacov. You seem to have an alterior motive since you are a virgin and might have been less lucky in love versus non virgin men. I sense some resentment and jealousy..That's not good..that's very bad.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 04:36:57 AM
By the way, I think women should also refuse to marry men who are not virgins.



Are you trying to say that a non virgin's tishuva on Yom Kippur is moot?  That if a man had sex and realizes and is sorry for doing it to Gd, a virgin should refuse marrying him?! Even if he is relitively righteous otherwise?

And she shoudl choose a virgin man who might otherwise be evil over a more righteous non virgin? 

Come on now...that's not cool, Yaacov. You seem to have an alterior motive since you are a virgin and might have been less lucky in love versus non virgin men. I sense some resentment and jealousy..That's not good..that's very bad.


I would have French Kissed women but I never would have had sex with any. If I was lucky in love I would have just kissed, not have sex. I would have felt the desire to have sex but I would have had to control my urges. I'm not an animal.

If a woman doesn't mind that a man had sex, then it's her problem if she wants to marry him but I don't see why she would be okay with it. I'm just having no double standard because I think women should be as picky as I am when it comes to marrying a virgin.



You are entitled to that choice, but encouraging virgins to only marry virgins is a mistake. Just because someone might have had sex or didn't have sex doesn't mean they are a good person. Beleive me..I have known terrible evil crazy mean virgins..and some really sweet non virgins.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: JTFFan on June 15, 2008, 04:43:29 AM
I think sex should be between in a man and a woman, love and a marriage. If the bride happens not to be a virgin, then she must repent and always love you, if not and if she cheats on you, then she never truly loved you in the first place.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 02:14:53 PM
I think sex should be between in a man and a woman, love and a marriage. If the bride happens not to be a virgin, then she must repent and always love you, if not and if she cheats on you, then she never truly loved you in the first place.

that woudl be true with a virgin as well who were to do the same thing...
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 04:12:35 PM
Dont worry Yakov the way you think is the right way  O0 Kol Hakavod, never settle for less then what is truly right to do. "narrowing your chances" etc. is not true at all, G-d will find you your Zivug, hopefully your Zivug gilgul as they say, and bless you with a good marriage. Anyway also dont get the picture that only the most religiouss of girls are virgins, and the rest all sleep around. Also many Baal Tishuva girls, have also been clean completly, because it is not only a religious thing. Their are many girls available, and you should obviously look in the right places- like through a Shadhan or a Rav who can find you someone rightious and on your level (obviously not clubs, bars and the other filthy places people go to, and then wonder if their are any virgins left- obviously not where they are searching).
 
 About marriage- the truth is that people should marry young, and G-d willing when my kids grow up, I will have them married at around 18.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Scriabin on June 15, 2008, 04:51:48 PM
Yawn.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 04:59:10 PM
Yawn.

  ;D , if you dont like it change the channel.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 09:13:26 PM
 

I never go to club, bars, and silly places like that. I don't even like those places and they just play loud trash music there.

Are Frumster and Orthodate good places to meet a woman? If I get a job in The Summer, I will money to spend so I will be able to afford to be a paid member there. I was only a paid member on Frumster once but the only girl that answered me didn't want to wait until I was done college and I still had a long way to go then. Now I will graduated in December and the only thing standing in the way is having enough money to get married but I will able to work full time since I'll be out of college.

[/quote]

  I know that, I also dont go, but I wouldn't say that if their was no Torah law agains't it that I wouldn't. I went a few times when I was verry young, and to tell you the truth at first I liked it, because I was the shiite because I knew how to dance and stuff. Also I loved the music (trance, club music) and was into that. It wasn't even to pick up a girl, but it was just the atmosphere- the music and friends that attracted me, as well as others. Then I just stopped going after talking to a Rabbi, and seeing the shiite that was going on their, where before I would go if a friend invited for their birthday, I just then said naa sorry its not the place for me.

  I do not know about Frumster and the other site, but I guess trying wont hurt. I personaly would not and will not go on them, because the girls on their are probably not for me (Im guessing they are mostly Askenazi) but if you see one that you like why not? Also if I were you I would definitly get myself realy trying by now, because you already need to be married, and you shouldn't wait to first completly finish college to then start dating and then find your match and then finaly get married at like 40 (G-d forbid). Go fishing now, and see what you will catch, also pray to Hashe-m and dont settle below your reasonable standards (dont make society think you are not "normal" or better yett doing the right thing in wanting simple things like a girl who respects her body, respecting G-d's laws of not having xxx before marriage, and respecting her future husband.) All the luck to you, may Hashe-m send you your Zivuk Gilgul and may she be a modest, rightious lady who keeps the laws properly.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: q_q_ on June 15, 2008, 09:36:43 PM
because the girls on their are probably not for me (Im guessing they are mostly Askenazi)

european looking girls don't float your boat?

rabbi's orders to pick a sephardi? 

parents' orders?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 09:39:55 PM


I never go to club, bars, and silly places like that. I don't even like those places and they just play loud trash music there.

Are Frumster and Orthodate good places to meet a woman? If I get a job in The Summer, I will money to spend so I will be able to afford to be a paid member there. I was only a paid member on Frumster once but the only girl that answered me didn't want to wait until I was done college and I still had a long way to go then. Now I will graduated in December and the only thing standing in the way is having enough money to get married but I will able to work full time since I'll be out of college.


  I know that, I also dont go, but I wouldn't say that if their was no Torah law agains't it that I wouldn't. I went a few times when I was verry young, and to tell you the truth at first I liked it, because I was the shiite because I knew how to dance and stuff. Also I loved the music (trance, club music) and was into that. It wasn't even to pick up a girl, but it was just the atmosphere- the music and friends that attracted me, as well as others. Then I just stopped going after talking to a Rabbi, and seeing the shiite that was going on their, where before I would go if a friend invited for their birthday, I just then said naa sorry its not the place for me.

  I do not know about Frumster and the other site, but I guess trying wont hurt. I personaly would not and will not go on them, because the girls on their are probably not for me (Im guessing they are mostly Askenazi) but if you see one that you like why not? Also if I were you I would definitly get myself realy trying by now, because you already need to be married, and you shouldn't wait to first completly finish college to then start dating and then find your match and then finaly get married at like 40 (G-d forbid). Go fishing now, and see what you will catch, also pray to Hashem and dont settle below your reasonable standards (dont make society think you are not "normal" or better yett doing the right thing in wanting simple things like a girl who respects her body, respecting G-d's laws of not having xxx before marriage, and respecting her future husband.) All the luck to you, may Hashem send you your Zivuk Gilgul and may she be a modest, rightious lady who keeps the laws properly.
[/quote]

how old are you tzvi? I thought you were 18 or 19 years old?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: q_q_ on June 15, 2008, 09:46:27 PM

how old are you tzvi? I thought you were 18 or 19 years old?

teenagers still have a concept of when they were "very young".

Even 10 year olds can talk of when they were very young, like when they were 9 !

BTW, 19 years old isn't that young.. people can be quite mature by 19, and can have had quite a history, from the age of say 14, partying. It is a long time, especially if you pack alot into it. And alot happens in those years - relatively speaking, so the time goes slower.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 09:49:40 PM
because the girls on their are probably not for me (Im guessing they are mostly Askenazi)

european looking girls don't float your boat?

rabbi's orders to pick a Sefaradi? 

parents' orders?

 Personal preference, my most likly way of going. Its just big cultural differences between us.
 Rabbi's actualy say not to discriminate (like Rabbi Mizrachi was saying- "what's it her fault if she is Hungarian") but I just personaly feel closer to people who think like me, come from similar background, etc. Also I have a rich culture, and wouldn't want to have a conflict of interest of having which type of culture in the house. Also their would probably be a bigger change of me going for a Sefardi girl in general, not only Bukharian, but most likly with G-d's help the blood in my family will stay purly Bukh.   :D
  Parents orders-  :::D , wouldn't listin anyway (and do not have to since, it involves a mitzva and we dont have to listin to them, but anyway they dont tell me anything).

 To Dan- no im 21. But anyway when I meant young, I was referring to like 13 and 14.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 10:08:50 PM
because the girls on their are probably not for me (Im guessing they are mostly Askenazi)

european looking girls don't float your boat?

rabbi's orders to pick a Sefaradi? 

parents' orders?

 Personal preference, my most likly way of going. Its just big cultural differences between us.
 Rabbi's actualy say not to discriminate (like Rabbi Mizrachi was saying- "what's it her fault if she is Hungarian") but I just personaly feel closer to people who think like me, come from similar background, etc. Also I have a rich culture, and wouldn't want to have a conflict of interest of having which type of culture in the house. Also their would probably be a bigger change of me going for a Sefaradi girl in general, not only Bukharian, but most likly with G-d's help the blood in my family will stay purly Bukh.   :D
  Parents orders-  :::D , wouldn't listin anyway (and do not have to since, it involves a mitzva and we dont have to listin to them, but anyway they dont tell me anything).

 To Dan- no im 21. But anyway when I meant young, I was referring to like 13 and 14.

how the heck did you get into any clubs and bars at the age of 13 or 14? lol

As far as marrying only a Bukharian...generally, Sefardi jews tend to have that strong connection with people of their own culture. Being Persian, I know what you mean.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 10:22:19 PM
because the girls on their are probably not for me (Im guessing they are mostly Askenazi)

european looking girls don't float your boat?

rabbi's orders to pick a Sefaradi? 

parents' orders?

 Personal preference, my most likly way of going. Its just big cultural differences between us.
 Rabbi's actualy say not to discriminate (like Rabbi Mizrachi was saying- "what's it her fault if she is Hungarian") but I just personaly feel closer to people who think like me, come from similar background, etc. Also I have a rich culture, and wouldn't want to have a conflict of interest of having which type of culture in the house. Also their would probably be a bigger change of me going for a Sefaradi girl in general, not only Bukharian, but most likly with G-d's help the blood in my family will stay purly Bukh.   :D
  Parents orders-  :::D , wouldn't listin anyway (and do not have to since, it involves a mitzva and we dont have to listin to them, but anyway they dont tell me anything).

 To Dan- no im 21. But anyway when I meant young, I was referring to like 13 and 14.

bro purely Bukh? we all Jews the same 2,000 years ago there was no such thing as Sefaradi or Ashkenazim. you can find on both sides great girls, no matter what family says. i my self come from a mixed background 

 Yea I know, but their are just those differences, and Im not saying that their aren't great girls in other cultures, but just different people, some much better then me, some not. Also actualy I dont see that much of a difference between Gruzinim and Buhs so I dont think that their is a world of different culture between your parents ( their are many differences, but easier to understand and bond with them).
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 10:29:09 PM
because the girls on their are probably not for me (Im guessing they are mostly Askenazi)

european looking girls don't float your boat?

rabbi's orders to pick a Sefaradi? 

parents' orders?

 Personal preference, my most likly way of going. Its just big cultural differences between us.
 Rabbi's actualy say not to discriminate (like Rabbi Mizrachi was saying- "what's it her fault if she is Hungarian") but I just personaly feel closer to people who think like me, come from similar background, etc. Also I have a rich culture, and wouldn't want to have a conflict of interest of having which type of culture in the house. Also their would probably be a bigger change of me going for a Sefaradi girl in general, not only Bukharian, but most likly with G-d's help the blood in my family will stay purly Bukh.   :D
  Parents orders-  :::D , wouldn't listin anyway (and do not have to since, it involves a mitzva and we dont have to listin to them, but anyway they dont tell me anything).

 To Dan- no im 21. But anyway when I meant young, I was referring to like 13 and 14.

bro purely Bukh? we all Jews the same 2,000 years ago there was no such thing as Sefaradi or Ashkenazim. you can find on both sides great girls, no matter what family says. i my self come from a mixed background 

 Yea I know, but their are just those differences, and Im not saying that their aren't great girls in other cultures, but just different people, some much better then me, some not. Also actualy I dont see that much of a difference between Gruzinim and Buhs so I dont think that their is a world of different culture between your parents ( their are many differences, but easier to understand and bond with them).

also the Bukharain and Kavkazi Jews have many similarities if you look closely Sefaradi Jews have more similar things in common as well as the Ashkenazim.

 Also its about knowing the families and family reputations. Expecially for a guy looking for a girl. If one finds a girl in his community, he can more easily know her background and her "avlot" (family history, parents ,grandparents, which city they came from and their standing, thus mentality) as they say. 
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 10:29:30 PM
what's grazinim and kavkazi ?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 10:38:47 PM
what's grazinim and kavkazi ?

Kavkazi Jews come from Azerbaijan and Dagistan. Gruzinian Jews come from Georgia the country. both Sefaradi Jews from former USSR as well as Bukharin who come from Uzbekistan and Tajikistan

 I always get the 2 groups mixed up- Gruzinim and Kafkazim, but some people in one of these groups told me that they are neither Askenazi nor Sefardi.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 10:44:26 PM
what's grazinim and kavkazi ?

Kavkazi Jews come from Azerbaijan and Dagistan. Gruzinian Jews come from Georgia the country. both Sefaradi Jews from former USSR as well as Bukharin who come from Uzbekistan and Tajikistan

 I always get the 2 groups mixed up- Gruzinim and Kafkazim, but some people in one of these groups told me that they are neither Askenazi nor Sefaradi.

oh ok..i usually say, Azeri Jews from Azerbajan and Georgian from Georgia...but the country Georgia...
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: q_q_ on June 15, 2008, 10:45:42 PM
I hate to belabour the point, but as kahane said, there is no such thing as an american jew, or a russian jew, e.t.c.  There is a jew living in america, russia, e.t.c.

Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: shimon on June 15, 2008, 10:49:25 PM
I hate to belabour the point, but as kahane said, there is no such thing as an american jew, or a russian jew, e.t.c.  There is a jew living in america, russia, e.t.c.


i get what your saying but in a way its different. Because there can be no such thing as an American jew since most jews came around hundred years ago. But in countries like Iran(Persia) or Iraq(Babylon) jews have been living there for millenia so i think its fair to call them Persian or Babylonian Jews
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 10:58:10 PM
I hate to belabour the point, but as kahane said, there is no such thing as an american jew, or a russian jew, e.t.c.  There is a jew living in america, russia, e.t.c.


i get what your saying but in a way its different. Because there can be no such thing as an American jew since most jews came around hundred years ago. But in countries like Iran(Persia) or Iraq(Babylon) jews have been living there for millenia so i think its fair to call them Persian or Babylonian Jews

 We are all technically Israeli's or Israelites, BUT we cannot deny that the different places we have been living in and the experiences we have gone through greatly shapes our personalities, mentalities, and outlook in life. For Bukharians people are asked about which city they come from (the family when they used to live in Uzbekistan, and their grandparents etc.) because it is a fact that it all affect the children, and their mentality.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 11:04:01 PM
I hate to belabour the point, but as kahane said, there is no such thing as an american jew, or a russian jew, e.t.c.  There is a jew living in america, russia, e.t.c.



it is very true i tell all my friends we Jews are Jews were not German Jews or Russian Jews we are simply Jews.

i personally hate being called a Russian or Kavkazi or Bukharin Jew. i tell people so if your a Jew from an Arab country what that makes an Arab-Jew or if your from Germany what are you a Nazi-Jew (the word Nazi in Russian is the same as German)

 You see- that this statement clearly shows a personality from you because of your family (I dont mean it in a bad way, but pointing out that your situation brings out the mentality). Because you came from parents from somewhat different locations, you say (and believe) in something like that. The same thing was also said from Yakov Menashe because he is in the similar situation (dont get me wrong I am not impying anything negative, but just pointing out that family, and the way it is set up, influences mentality).
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on June 15, 2008, 11:06:51 PM
the only way we split is by the 12 Tribes but even when we were the 12 Tribes it wasn't as it is now

 Not only, but each family was splitt up. And not only that, but when we were in Eretz Yisrael, each lott was divided up by families, so expecialy after Yovel, everyone lived right next to people closly related to them- meaning that the closer one was in territory wise, the closer one was to their family wise (going by men). People lived by their family, unless they sold their land (which also only wa sup to Yovel, and not more).
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: ape on June 15, 2008, 11:08:56 PM
schwarzas can't handle it.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 15, 2008, 11:15:46 PM
I hate to belabour the point, but as kahane said, there is no such thing as an american jew, or a russian jew, e.t.c.  There is a jew living in america, russia, e.t.c.



it is very true i tell all my friends we Jews are Jews were not German Jews or Russian Jews we are simply Jews.

i personally hate being called a Russian or Kavkazi or Bukharin Jew. i tell people so if your a Jew from an Arab country what that makes an Arab-Jew or if your from Germany what are you a Nazi-Jew (the word Nazi in Russian is the same as German)

Listen, in Israel everyone is a Jew...so they identify each other as Russian, American, persian, Morrocan, etc... In israel when someone asks you your background you don't say, "I'm a Jew." You usually say "I'm a (orgin of country)"
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 23, 2008, 11:35:28 AM
I hate to belabour the point, but as kahane said, there is no such thing as an american jew, or a russian jew, e.t.c.  There is a jew living in america, russia, e.t.c.



it is very true i tell all my friends we Jews are Jews were not German Jews or Russian Jews we are simply Jews.

i personally hate being called a Russian or Kavkazi or Bukharin Jew. i tell people so if your a Jew from an Arab country what that makes an Arab-Jew or if your from Germany what are you a Nazi-Jew (the word Nazi in Russian is the same as German)

Listen, in Israel everyone is a Jew...so they identify each other as Russian, American, persian, Morrocan, etc... In israel when someone asks you your background you don't say, "I'm a Jew." You usually say "I'm a (orgin of country)"

yeah but how many Jews in Israel have married into different cultures

some but not all
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 23, 2008, 11:22:21 PM
I hate to belabour the point, but as kahane said, there is no such thing as an american jew, or a russian jew, e.t.c.  There is a jew living in america, russia, e.t.c.



it is very true i tell all my friends we Jews are Jews were not German Jews or Russian Jews we are simply Jews.

i personally hate being called a Russian or Kavkazi or Bukharin Jew. i tell people so if your a Jew from an Arab country what that makes an Arab-Jew or if your from Germany what are you a Nazi-Jew (the word Nazi in Russian is the same as German)

Listen, in Israel everyone is a Jew...so they identify each other as Russian, American, persian, Morrocan, etc... In israel when someone asks you your background you don't say, "I'm a Jew." You usually say "I'm a (orgin of country)"

yeah but how many Jews in Israel have married into different cultures

some but not all

JEWS ARE MARRYING. Sefaradim ARE MARRYING OTHER Sefaradim ALSO WITH ASHKENAZIM

sure...they are...and some aren't...what's your point?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Katie on June 25, 2008, 03:57:02 AM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Vito on June 25, 2008, 04:07:47 PM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D


It's equally wrong for Jewish men as it is for Jewish women.



Yep, Christians as well.
Muzzie men can rape, and the women just have to sit tight and wait for their turn.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Katie on June 25, 2008, 04:44:15 PM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D


It's equally wrong for Jewish men as it is for Jewish women.



Yep, Christians as well.
Muzzie men can rape, and the women just have to sit tight and wait for their turn.

lol im not talking about muslims, im talking about jews here....
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Vito on June 25, 2008, 04:56:50 PM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D


It's equally wrong for Jewish men as it is for Jewish women.





Yep, Christians as well.
Muzzie men can rape, and the women just have to sit tight and wait for their turn.

lol im not talking about muslims, im talking about jews here....

Hey hey.. I change the subjects around here  :P
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Katie on June 25, 2008, 05:00:58 PM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D


It's equally wrong for Jewish men as it is for Jewish women.





Yep, Christians as well.
Muzzie men can rape, and the women just have to sit tight and wait for their turn.

lol im not talking about muslims, im talking about jews here....

Hey hey.. I change the subjects around here  :P

loll yet im talking about jews.. so id like to know whats going through the minds of the two people that votes that jewish guys can have sex but jewish girls cant..

yea look at that changing the subject back :) you cant always hate on the muslims loll thats not the answer to everything
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Vito on June 25, 2008, 05:02:47 PM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D


It's equally wrong for Jewish men as it is for Jewish women.





Yep, Christians as well.
Muzzie men can rape, and the women just have to sit tight and wait for their turn.

lol im not talking about muslims, im talking about jews here....

Hey hey.. I change the subjects around here  :P

loll yet im talking about jews.. so id like to know whats going through the minds of the two people that votes that jewish guys can have sex but jewish girls cant..

yea look at that changing the subject back :) you cant always hate on the muslims loll thats not the answer to everything

Well the two guys that voted were probably joking.. people do that on this site sometimes  ;D
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Katie on June 25, 2008, 05:05:10 PM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D


It's equally wrong for Jewish men as it is for Jewish women.





Yep, Christians as well.
Muzzie men can rape, and the women just have to sit tight and wait for their turn.

lol im not talking about muslims, im talking about jews here....

Hey hey.. I change the subjects around here  :P

loll yet im talking about jews.. so id like to know whats going through the minds of the two people that votes that jewish guys can have sex but jewish girls cant..

yea look at that changing the subject back :) you cant always hate on the muslims loll thats not the answer to everything

Well the two guys that voted were probably joking.. people do that on this site sometimes  ;D

yea they better be.. or elseee!

lol
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 27, 2008, 01:06:59 AM
I hate to belabour the point, but as kahane said, there is no such thing as an american jew, or a russian jew, e.t.c.  There is a jew living in america, russia, e.t.c.



it is very true i tell all my friends we Jews are Jews were not German Jews or Russian Jews we are simply Jews.

i personally hate being called a Russian or Kavkazi or Bukharin Jew. i tell people so if your a Jew from an Arab country what that makes an Arab-Jew or if your from Germany what are you a Nazi-Jew (the word Nazi in Russian is the same as German)

Listen, in Israel everyone is a Jew...so they identify each other as Russian, American, persian, Morrocan, etc... In israel when someone asks you your background you don't say, "I'm a Jew." You usually say "I'm a (orgin of country)"

yeah but how many Jews in Israel have married into different cultures

some but not all

JEWS ARE MARRYING. Sefaradim ARE MARRYING OTHER Sefaradim ALSO WITH ASHKENAZIM

sure...they are...and some aren't...what's your point?

am saying that people don't really care that much about culture background

Wrong...most Ashkanazim don't care...many more sefardim do care...However there are exceptions to the rule.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 27, 2008, 01:09:49 AM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D

That option was a trick answer...

If all women did stay virgins, then who would the men have sex with until marraige..and the obvious answer is that they wouldnt' have sex.

Because men are wired differently, they have the inclination to wnat to have sex even if they were virgins...Women have a different inclination and a different wiring and when they want sex, it is usually for different reasons compared to men.  Most women can wait until they are virgins..but men, on the other hand, are another story.  By forcing men to be virgins until marraige is unreasonable to most men's minds.  By stating that it is optional, he feels better that he has no pressure to wait...However, if all the women followed suit and waited until marraige, then the men would haev no option.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Katie on June 27, 2008, 02:39:36 AM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D

That option was a trick answer...

If all women did stay virgins, then who would the men have sex with until marraige..and the obvious answer is that they wouldnt' have sex.

Because men are wired differently, they have the inclination to wnat to have sex even if they were virgins...Women have a different inclination and a different wiring and when they want sex, it is usually for different reasons compared to men.  Most women can wait until they are virgins..but men, on the other hand, are another story.  By forcing men to be virgins until marraige is unreasonable to most men's minds.  By stating that it is optional, he feels better that he has no pressure to wait...However, if all the women followed suit and waited until marraige, then the men would haev no option.

ah i disagree.. i think its a huge double standard.. i think women can have the same inclinations as men, believe me, they want sex lol...
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 27, 2008, 09:25:34 AM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D

That option was a trick answer...

If all women did stay virgins, then who would the men have sex with until marraige..and the obvious answer is that they wouldnt' have sex.

Because men are wired differently, they have the inclination to wnat to have sex even if they were virgins...Women have a different inclination and a different wiring and when they want sex, it is usually for different reasons compared to men.  Most women can wait until they are virgins..but men, on the other hand, are another story.  By forcing men to be virgins until marraige is unreasonable to most men's minds.  By stating that it is optional, he feels better that he has no pressure to wait...However, if all the women followed suit and waited until marraige, then the men would haev no option.

ah i disagree.. i think its a huge double standard.. i think women can have the same inclinations as men, believe me, they want sex lol...

I'm sure if there were a poll of today, yesterday, 10 years ago and 20 years ago, more women would have been virgins than men...today it is about equal and that's because of the filth we deal with everyday in society and on TV.

And it's a fact, men are not women and women are not men... We are two completely different entities..wired very differently...The female and male are verrrrrry different to give them the same exact rule.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Katie on June 29, 2008, 02:50:46 AM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D

That option was a trick answer...

If all women did stay virgins, then who would the men have sex with until marraige..and the obvious answer is that they wouldnt' have sex.

Because men are wired differently, they have the inclination to wnat to have sex even if they were virgins...Women have a different inclination and a different wiring and when they want sex, it is usually for different reasons compared to men.  Most women can wait until they are virgins..but men, on the other hand, are another story.  By forcing men to be virgins until marraige is unreasonable to most men's minds.  By stating that it is optional, he feels better that he has no pressure to wait...However, if all the women followed suit and waited until marraige, then the men would haev no option.

ah i disagree.. i think its a huge double standard.. i think women can have the same inclinations as men, believe me, they want sex lol...

I'm sure if there were a poll of today, yesterday, 10 years ago and 20 years ago, more women would have been virgins than men...today it is about equal and that's because of the filth we deal with everyday in society and on TV.

And it's a fact, men are not women and women are not men... We are two completely different entities..wired very differently...The female and male are verrrrrry different to give them the same exact rule.

yet its very unfair to say one can do something the other can't... especially something like this
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 29, 2008, 06:14:32 AM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D

That option was a trick answer...

If all women did stay virgins, then who would the men have sex with until marraige..and the obvious answer is that they wouldnt' have sex.

Because men are wired differently, they have the inclination to wnat to have sex even if they were virgins...Women have a different inclination and a different wiring and when they want sex, it is usually for different reasons compared to men.  Most women can wait until they are virgins..but men, on the other hand, are another story.  By forcing men to be virgins until marraige is unreasonable to most men's minds.  By stating that it is optional, he feels better that he has no pressure to wait...However, if all the women followed suit and waited until marraige, then the men would haev no option.

ah i disagree.. i think its a huge double standard.. i think women can have the same inclinations as men, believe me, they want sex lol...

I'm sure if there were a poll of today, yesterday, 10 years ago and 20 years ago, more women would have been virgins than men...today it is about equal and that's because of the filth we deal with everyday in society and on TV.

And it's a fact, men are not women and women are not men... We are two completely different entities..wired very differently...The female and male are verrrrrry different to give them the same exact rule.

yet its very unfair to say one can do something the other can't... especially something like this


When you have a son and when you have a daughter and when you are married, you will understand.  Apparantly, I haven't done any of the above yet...

Secondly I disagree wtih the statement you made.  If i had a son and a daughter, I'm more likely to encourage my son to pursue higher education past college and graduate school, but for my daughter not encourage it (but I wouldnt' discourage it either).  Why?  Because I feel it is better for women to get married at a younger age as long as they are mature to do so.  The younger she marries (if she's mature), the more likely she can have more children..and especially for Jews, that's a good thing.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Gruzinit on June 29, 2008, 10:30:35 AM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D


That option was a trick answer...

If all women did stay virgins, then who would the men have sex with until marraige..and the obvious answer is that they wouldnt' have sex.

Because men are wired differently, they have the inclination to wnat to have sex even if they were virgins...Women have a different inclination and a different wiring and when they want sex, it is usually for different reasons compared to men.  Most women can wait until they are virgins..but men, on the other hand, are another story.  By forcing men to be virgins until marraige is unreasonable to most men's minds.  By stating that it is optional, he feels better that he has no pressure to wait...However, if all the women followed suit and waited until marraige, then the men would haev no option.

ah i disagree.. i think its a huge double standard.. i think women can have the same inclinations as men, believe me, they want sex lol...

I'm sure if there were a poll of today, yesterday, 10 years ago and 20 years ago, more women would have been virgins than men...today it is about equal and that's because of the filth we deal with everyday in society and on TV.

And it's a fact, men are not women and women are not men... We are two completely different entities..wired very differently...The female and male are verrrrrry different to give them the same exact rule.

yet its very unfair to say one can do something the other can't... especially something like this


When you have a son and when you have a daughter and when you are married, you will understand.  Apparantly, I haven't done any of the above yet...

Secondly I disagree wtih the statement you made.  If i had a son and a daughter, I'm more likely to encourage my son to pursue higher education past college and graduate school, but for my daughter not encourage it (but I wouldnt' discourage it either).  Why?  Because I feel it is better for women to get married at a younger age as long as they are mature to do so.  The younger she marries (if she's mature), the more likely she can have more children..and especially for Jews, that's a good thing.

I disagree, I think it's very important for a women to get an education post-high school. Family is very important to me, but i also want to be finsih my education and work so I can provide for them. Sometimes its not best for people to get married young and start having kids, I've had many people tell me they prefer getting married later on and having children because they don't think they coulkd have handled the stress when they were younger.

It's a dilemma for many women like myself...
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 29, 2008, 12:49:39 PM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D


That option was a trick answer...

If all women did stay virgins, then who would the men have sex with until marraige..and the obvious answer is that they wouldnt' have sex.

Because men are wired differently, they have the inclination to wnat to have sex even if they were virgins...Women have a different inclination and a different wiring and when they want sex, it is usually for different reasons compared to men.  Most women can wait until they are virgins..but men, on the other hand, are another story.  By forcing men to be virgins until marraige is unreasonable to most men's minds.  By stating that it is optional, he feels better that he has no pressure to wait...However, if all the women followed suit and waited until marraige, then the men would haev no option.

ah i disagree.. i think its a huge double standard.. i think women can have the same inclinations as men, believe me, they want sex lol...

I'm sure if there were a poll of today, yesterday, 10 years ago and 20 years ago, more women would have been virgins than men...today it is about equal and that's because of the filth we deal with everyday in society and on TV.

And it's a fact, men are not women and women are not men... We are two completely different entities..wired very differently...The female and male are verrrrrry different to give them the same exact rule.

yet its very unfair to say one can do something the other can't... especially something like this


When you have a son and when you have a daughter and when you are married, you will understand.  Apparantly, I haven't done any of the above yet...

Secondly I disagree wtih the statement you made.  If i had a son and a daughter, I'm more likely to encourage my son to pursue higher education past college and graduate school, but for my daughter not encourage it (but I wouldnt' discourage it either).  Why?  Because I feel it is better for women to get married at a younger age as long as they are mature to do so.  The younger she marries (if she's mature), the more likely she can have more children..and especially for Jews, that's a good thing.

I disagree, I think it's very important for a women to get an education post-high school. Family is very important to me, but i also want to be finsih my education and work so I can provide for them. Sometimes its not best for people to get married young and start having kids, I've had many people tell me they prefer getting married later on and having children because they don't think they coulkd have handled the stress when they were younger.

It's a dilemma for many women like myself...


I never said that a girl should not go to college.  I said that after college, it should be optional for her to go for a post graduate education...I wouldn't discourage a daughter of mine, if i had one, to do that.  But if I had a son, I would strongly encourage him to do so.  And it's for the reason that I have expectations for the man to provide for the family in a financial sense and not as much for a woman.  Women are better caretakers...and if she's mature enough, she should get married and have kids and take care of them. 

Yes, if she had a higher education, it also goes to her advantage in another sense...once her kids grow up and go off to school, she has the ability and knowledge to pursue something other than house wife.

My understanding with you, gruznit, is that you are from Israel...so after highschool, women go to the army for a couple of years and THEN go to college...Once again, women should get a college education...but to become something huge and invest numerous difficult years to become a physician, for example, is not something I would recommend my daughter, if i had one, to do.  If she liked medicine, I woudl encourage her to do something like become a pharmacist, optomotrist, dentist, or dental hygienist, for example.

Not trying to be chauvenistic.  Many women are great doctors and there isn't a moment I woudl look down one that is a female EVER!  However, with my own kids, when I get them, Gd willing, my sons i would encourage, my daughters i wouldn't encourage, but at the same time won't discourage...maybe advise that if she wants to become a medical doctor which takes years and years of studying and becoming established, that she is better off doing something that allows her to be a mother at the same time instead of Lupe or Juanita doing the job for her.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Gruzinit on June 29, 2008, 02:10:49 PM
First, I'm not from Israel. Second, I never accused you of being a chauvenist Dr. Dan. I just think it's good for women to pursue a career outside the home, especially it's impossible to live on one income these days.

Many women in my community who married when they were teens have now gone back to school, and many girls I know from high school that got married and had kids while still continuing their education could do so because they had IMMENSE help from their families, because being a student, spouse and parent is quite a juggling act.

Also, many of my mother's friends, women who got married and had a child before the turned 20, realize the importance of an education for their daughters, because the era they lived in is over, and they have no need to see their daughter's become teenage brides. Morning sickness followed by finals isn't great either...

Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: nopeaceforland on June 29, 2008, 02:23:08 PM
My take on this is: When I marry a lady (notice I said LADY and not woman) I'd like to know that I'm marrying someone who is pure and not a skank who would bang anyone at a pin-drop. Also, I'm going to want to have kids. I don't want a woman who has a disease farm growing in her pants.

btw: I'm no hypocrite, I am what I preach! I'm almost 26, and I'm still waiting for MY lady, and I'm not ashamed in the least.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dan on June 29, 2008, 02:35:32 PM


btw: I'm no hypocrite, I am what I preach! I'm almost 26, and I'm still waiting for MY lady, and I'm not ashamed in the least.
O0!
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 30, 2008, 12:14:48 PM
First, I'm not from Israel. Second, I never accused you of being a chauvenist Dr. Dan. I just think it's good for women to pursue a career outside the home, especially it's impossible to live on one income these days.

Many women in my community who married when they were teens have now gone back to school, and many girls I know from high school that got married and had kids while still continuing their education could do so because they had IMMENSE help from their families, because being a student, spouse and parent is quite a juggling act.

Also, many of my mother's friends, women who got married and had a child before the turned 20, realize the importance of an education for their daughters, because the era they lived in is over, and they have no need to see their daughter's become teenage brides. Morning sickness followed by finals isn't great either...



All of these women you describe sound like good people from good families.  So it can work out for sure...but it's not for everyone who doesn't have the means as you describe

And i know you didnt' call me a chauvenist...but i felt like one writing what i wrote.

and for some reason i thought you were israeli...
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 30, 2008, 12:15:33 PM
My take on this is: When I marry a lady (notice I said LADY and not woman) I'd like to know that I'm marrying someone who is pure and not a skank who would bang anyone at a pin-drop. Also, I'm going to want to have kids. I don't want a woman who has a disease farm growing in her pants.

btw: I'm no hypocrite, I am what I preach! I'm almost 26, and I'm still waiting for MY lady, and I'm not ashamed in the least.

Why are you waiting?  Go look for her!
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Gruzinit on June 30, 2008, 12:28:37 PM
First, I'm not from Israel. Second, I never accused you of being a chauvenist Dr. Dan. I just think it's good for women to pursue a career outside the home, especially it's impossible to live on one income these days.

Many women in my community who married when they were teens have now gone back to school, and many girls I know from high school that got married and had kids while still continuing their education could do so because they had IMMENSE help from their families, because being a student, spouse and parent is quite a juggling act.

Also, many of my mother's friends, women who got married and had a child before the turned 20, realize the importance of an education for their daughters, because the era they lived in is over, and they have no need to see their daughter's become teenage brides. Morning sickness followed by finals isn't great either...



All of these women you describe sound like good people from good families.  So it can work out for sure...but it's not for everyone who doesn't have the means as you describe

And i know you didnt' call me a chauvenist...but i felt like one writing what i wrote.

and for some reason i thought you were israeli...

Supportive families is an understatement. And I take your assumption that I was Israeli as a compliment.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 30, 2008, 12:54:59 PM
First, I'm not from Israel. Second, I never accused you of being a chauvenist Dr. Dan. I just think it's good for women to pursue a career outside the home, especially it's impossible to live on one income these days.

Many women in my community who married when they were teens have now gone back to school, and many girls I know from high school that got married and had kids while still continuing their education could do so because they had IMMENSE help from their families, because being a student, spouse and parent is quite a juggling act.

Also, many of my mother's friends, women who got married and had a child before the turned 20, realize the importance of an education for their daughters, because the era they lived in is over, and they have no need to see their daughter's become teenage brides. Morning sickness followed by finals isn't great either...



All of these women you describe sound like good people from good families.  So it can work out for sure...but it's not for everyone who doesn't have the means as you describe

And i know you didnt' call me a chauvenist...but i felt like one writing what i wrote.

and for some reason i thought you were israeli...

Supportive families is an understatement. And I take your assumption that I was Israeli as a compliment.
its the way chaim pronounces gruzinit
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: nopeaceforland on July 03, 2008, 12:48:02 AM
My take on this is: When I marry a lady (notice I said LADY and not woman) I'd like to know that I'm marrying someone who is pure and not a skank who would bang anyone at a pin-drop. Also, I'm going to want to have kids. I don't want a woman who has a disease farm growing in her pants.

btw: I'm no hypocrite, I am what I preach! I'm almost 26, and I'm still waiting for MY lady, and I'm not ashamed in the least.

Why are you waiting?  Go look for her!

I would love to believe me! Right now, I am extremely pre-occupied trying to get what seems like a non-existing job. I have a master's (so my education's finished IMO) but with the economy, every job I apply for has 2,000 applicants. :'( So, unfortunately this is my main concern, but finding a girlfriend/wife is definitely number 2! O0
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Dr. Dan on July 03, 2008, 07:27:06 PM
My take on this is: When I marry a lady (notice I said LADY and not woman) I'd like to know that I'm marrying someone who is pure and not a skank who would bang anyone at a pin-drop. Also, I'm going to want to have kids. I don't want a woman who has a disease farm growing in her pants.

btw: I'm no hypocrite, I am what I preach! I'm almost 26, and I'm still waiting for MY lady, and I'm not ashamed in the least.

Why are you waiting?  Go look for her!

I would love to believe me! Right now, I am extremely pre-occupied trying to get what seems like a non-existing job. I have a master's (so my education's finished IMO) but with the economy, every job I apply for has 2,000 applicants. :'( So, unfortunately this is my main concern, but finding a girlfriend/wife is definitely number 2! O0

well, you're young also...and you have the right priority...Build your house before you put your wife inside of it.  Freezing cold and poor is no way to live
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on July 09, 2008, 01:15:01 AM
I heard Garrison Keilor's show last week.

They said that if the two people having the sex don't plan on getting married, then it can't be "pre-marital" sex!   :::D   O0   8;)
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Karen on July 15, 2008, 08:07:49 PM
I am for pre-marital sex only if in a serious relationship. No one night stands, floozy encounters, summer date kind of crap. I wouldn't want to marry someone without knowing if we....work in bed. I am against having children out of wedlock though. That's just bad for the children. I think of marriage as an institution that protects children, and if you aren't having any children, you're using safe sex, with someone you love and are serious with, how can it hurt?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Tzvi Ben Roshel1 on July 15, 2008, 08:50:10 PM
I am for pre-marital sex only if in a serious relationship. No one night stands, floozy encounters, summer date kind of crap. I wouldn't want to marry someone without knowing if we....work in bed. I am against having children out of wedlock though. That's just bad for the children. I think of marriage as an institution that protects children, and if you aren't having any children, you're using safe sex, with someone you love and are serious with, how can it hurt?

 If you are Jewish, and since this is the Jewish section on dating, etc. IT is agains't what G-d commands in the Torah, so your or anybody else's opinion on something that G-d says not to do is not held valid (at all), even if it seems logical or okay, something forbidden is forbidden, end of discussion. 
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Xoce on January 12, 2009, 08:01:28 PM
oo i bet this is a hot topic on the forum... id love to hear the reasons of the two people that voted that only jewish women should stay virgins and that for the men its optional.. so who do you propose they have sex with? other men? or shiksas? i mean i've heard shiksas are for practice but that doesn't seem very fair to the jewish women, who do they practice with?  :::D :::D

 :::D
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: Edward on February 04, 2010, 05:01:49 AM
I agree with Yacov. But only for Jews I don't want to tell people who aren't religous what to do
But not all Jews are religious
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: JarheadJew on February 23, 2010, 08:03:04 PM
virginity is way over rated, but remember shiksas are only for practice. Now get out of my face and go get a life. dismissed
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lisa on February 23, 2010, 10:39:21 PM
Jarhead Jew, virginity is NOT overrated.  Furthermore, using another human being for sex, regardless of his/her religion is immoral. 
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Edward on February 24, 2010, 01:36:48 AM
Lisa, I agree with you.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Cato on February 24, 2010, 02:29:49 AM
Haven't seen such a long thread since someone asked for opinions on the Germans.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: White Israelite on March 15, 2010, 04:12:21 PM
I think people should keep it in their pants until they get married for a good reason, it can lead to pregnancy (before your ready) and other things like STD's if someones been sleeping around.

Unfortunately I would be a hypocrite if I said I followed my own advice... but I don't regret decisions I made, it's part of life.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Mordechai05 on August 26, 2010, 06:55:29 PM
I think that pre-marital sex can cause problems.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Meerkat on August 26, 2010, 11:02:30 PM
virginity is way over rated, but remember shiksas are only for practice. Now get out of my face and go get a life. dismissed

LOL
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: FreedomFighter08 on September 06, 2010, 09:54:55 AM
Quote
If you are Jewish, and since this is the Jewish section on dating, etc. IT is agains't what G-d commands in the Torah, so your or anybody else's opinion on something that G-d says not to do is not held valid (at all), even if it seems logical or okay, something forbidden is forbidden, end of discussion.

Wow. Hey the Middle Ages called - they want their shtick back. I don't see how somebody can be this ignorant. If it wasn't for questioning the Church, the Enlightenment would have never happened, and the Founding Fathers, who were Deists, would have never been here.

By the way Deists are people who believe in a creator of the Universe but not religion and religious texts.

Plus what if somebody never gets married? Are they just gonna stay virgins for life like the Pope? I think it's optional but I prefer premarital sex.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on September 06, 2010, 10:00:29 AM

Wow. Hey the Middle Ages called - they want their shtick back. I don't see how somebody can be this ignorant. If it wasn't for questioning the Church, the Enlightenment would have never happened, and the Founding Fathers, who were Deists, would have never been here.

The so-called "Enlightment" caused one of the darkest periods of human history (even though it had some good ideas). I don't see how you can compare the Rabbis and the Church, Judaism and Xtianity and criticism of humans and criticism of G-d.


Quote
By the way Deists are people who believe in a creator of the Universe but not religion and religious texts.

But as humans they are still obligated to observe Mitzohvt (both Jews and Gentiles) as the children of the Creator.

Quote
Plus what if somebody never gets married? Are they just gonna stay virgins for life like the Pope? I think it's optional but I prefer premarital sex.

You do realize there's a Commandament to get married and be fruitful and multiply, don't you?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: FreedomFighter08 on September 06, 2010, 10:07:12 AM
I'm aware of the commandment. I would want to get married in the future (I'm much too young now) but what about some people who don't get married? You do know that not everybody finds the right woman/man to get married with. What do those people do?

Quote
But as humans they are still obligated to observe Mitzohvt (both Jews and Gentiles) as the children of the Creator.

I don't mean to get in a religious argument here but where is the proof that these Mitzohvt were from the Creator and not written by a rabbi like the Talmud was. I think it's much better to just be a good person (don't steal, murder, etc.) then follow some rules that don't make sense.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on September 06, 2010, 10:47:59 AM
Re:  "I don't see how somebody can be this ignorant. "

No?

Then hang around this forum a little bit longer.

Here you have people who would never have known electricity, had it not been for The Enlightenment, but they're "on line" using digital and photo-optical high technology, wearing corrective lenses, fully vaccinated against childhood deadly diseases, and they're here to tell you that you are evil and a fool if you claim that The Enlightment was of any benefit.

Yeah.

I guess The Enlightenment had at least "a few good ideas", but.......

Ever since bell wearing Jewish beggars with leprosy stopped sitting outside the Jerusalem City Gates during the animal sacrifices there hasn't been any progress and Jewish life hasn't been worth living.

We all just need to get back to that time and that state of consciousness.

If you were a very holy man like me and one of the truly righteous you would already know this.

Makes you kind of wonder what happened to some people, don't ya' think?
         :'(
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on September 06, 2010, 10:51:07 AM
Re:  "I think it's much better to just be a good person (don't steal, murder, etc.) then follow some rules that don't make sense. "

Well, then you've already answered your own question and don't need to hear the views of others.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on September 06, 2010, 11:00:14 AM
Re:  "I don't see how you can compare the Rabbis and the Church, Judaism and Xtianity and criticism of humans and criticism of G-d. "

No?     :o

It's fun!     8)

It's easy.       ;D :laugh:

I do it almost every day here on the forum.     :P   :P   :P

>:(   >:(  It's ME whom you'd better not compare and criticize if you know what's good for you!    >:(   >:(

Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: FreedomFighter08 on September 06, 2010, 11:18:31 AM
Quote
Here you have people who would never have known electricity, had it not been for The Enlightenment, but they're "on line" using digital and photo-optical high technology, wearing corrective lenses, fully vaccinated against childhood deadly diseases, and they're here to tell you that you are evil and a fool if you claim that The Enlightment was of any benefit.

Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: The One and Only Mo on September 06, 2010, 06:32:48 PM
Clearly, there are many voters who either don't know or don't care about halacha.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: cjd on September 06, 2010, 06:51:53 PM
Clearly, there are many voters who either don't know or don't care about halacha.
I never vote in the forum polls but I like to check out the results now and then... I have to say this one surprised me somewhat.... :::D ...A lot more voting than usual and a wide cross section in response  :o    :::D  ...  This poll reminds me of a story my uncle told me years ago about my grandmothers food store back in Italy... It seems that when they sell a watermelon in parts of Italy the buyer has the right to demand a small square be cut out of the watermelon so he or she  can taste the prospective purchase...They call it "La Prova" ( A taste ) If the buyer turns the melon down the little square of the husk is put back in place and no one is the wiser. The  buyer then  goes on to find a melon that better suites his tastes.  ;D
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 21, 2010, 09:22:32 AM
I think people should keep it in their pants until they get married for a good reason, it can lead to pregnancy (before your ready) and other things like STD's if someones been sleeping around.

Unfortunately I would be a hypocrite if I said I followed my own advice... but I don't regret decisions I made, it's part of life.
Good post.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Betari on February 09, 2011, 12:13:35 PM
I'm all in favor of pre-marital sex.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: serbian army on February 21, 2011, 08:26:37 PM
Best way is to have sex only with a person who you marry.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Christian Zionist on March 18, 2011, 08:16:03 PM
Jarhead Jew, virginity is NOT overrated.  Furthermore, using another human being for sex, regardless of his/her religion is immoral. 

Pre-marital sex is irresponsible and I am 100% opposed to it.  It is a glorified form of fornication!
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lisa on March 19, 2011, 08:49:41 PM
Pre-marital sex IS fornication.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Brett on March 31, 2011, 04:15:01 AM
Quote
Jarhead Jew, virginity is NOT overrated.  Furthermore, using another human being for sex, regardless of his/her religion is immoral.


Agree with Lisa.

There'd be much less problems if people didn't share themselves around.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: muman613 on March 31, 2011, 09:20:19 PM
I'm all in favor of pre-marital sex.

You must be joking!

Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: The One and Only Mo on April 01, 2011, 02:49:55 AM
You must be joking!



People who don't care about the Torah are more likely to be in favor of it; what's the surprise?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: JTFenthusiast2 on August 21, 2011, 03:37:35 PM
I have relatives that waited until they were married to have sex (recently). They are both in their early 20s.  I thought it was nice, but someone made the point about sexual compatibility.  I thought it was a reasonable point to at least consider intellectually or with discussion between the couple before marriage.  How that would not end without knocking boots, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: jbeige on August 21, 2011, 04:39:09 PM
Just go out and have a blast, you only live once, would you buy a car without test driving it first?
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: Lisa on September 08, 2011, 10:32:57 PM
Just go out and have a blast, you only live once, would you buy a car without test driving it first?

Seriously???
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: jbeige on September 14, 2011, 07:39:11 PM
Seriously???
Yes, I don't care what religion you are we don't live in the stone ages.
To think that people don't have or shouldn't have sex before marriage is insane.
I'm not saying everyone should just jump into bed with each other without getting to know each other, what I'm saying is if you care about someone and know it will lead to some kind of a commitment I see nothing wrong with it.  BUT IT HAS TO BE SAFE SEX.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: muman613 on October 14, 2011, 12:10:59 AM
Yes, I don't care what religion you are we don't live in the stone ages.
To think that people don't have or shouldn't have sex before marriage is insane.
I'm not saying everyone should just jump into bed with each other without getting to know each other, what I'm saying is if you care about someone and know it will lead to some kind of a commitment I see nothing wrong with it.  BUT IT HAS TO BE SAFE SEX.

jbeige,

Your disrespect for religion stinks. Chaim, and many good JTF members are religious as I am. Sex is only permitted to married couples. You cannot discount it and claim those who do keep the word of G-d are 'living in the stone ages' or 'insane'. That is derogatory and completely uncalled for.

I know many people who have remained a virgin until after marriage. And it is a good thing for a couple to keep the sexual relationship holy. Judaism has an entire set of laws which are meant to ensure that there is a holy bond between a husband and a wife. I will not go into it here as this is not the place for such discussion.

I am still a moderator of this section and as a result I will ask you to please cease mocking the religious. Today you posted that you are no longer interested in JTF which in my opinion is a good thing. I don't think JTF is a place for people who mock the Jewish religion.

We must set an example to others. As a Jew, and as a Jewish forum, we must not act like the nations. This is the 'Jewish Singles' forum and as a result it is not unreasonable to ask those who post here to be respectful of the Jewish laws concerning the man/woman relationship. If you are interested in learning about these laws, and seeing people who live by them, then I invite you to do some research....
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: jbeige on October 15, 2011, 05:55:54 PM
jbeige,

Your disrespect for religion stinks. Chaim, and many good JTF members are religious as I am. Sex is only permitted to married couples. You cannot discount it and claim those who do keep the word of G-d are 'living in the stone ages' or 'insane'. That is derogatory and completely uncalled for.

I know many people who have remained a virgin until after marriage. And it is a good thing for a couple to keep the sexual relationship holy. Judaism has an entire set of laws which are meant to ensure that there is a holy bond between a husband and a wife. I will not go into it here as this is not the place for such discussion.

I am still a moderator of this section and as a result I will ask you to please cease mocking the religious. Today you posted that you are no longer interested in JTF which in my opinion is a good thing. I don't think JTF is a place for people who mock the Jewish religion.

We must set an example to others. As a Jew, and as a Jewish forum, we must not act like the nations. This is the 'Jewish Singles' forum and as a result it is not unreasonable to ask those who post here to be respectful of the Jewish laws concerning the man/woman relationship. If you are interested in learning about these laws, and seeing people who live by them, then I invite you to do some research....

I have something for you too, did you read this thread?, it's a POLL did you read the last option on the poll????
It asks do you think everyone should have pre-marital sex, why have a poll if people can't answer the question and give their opinion.  So what you are saying the poll is there but everyone has to vote one way, what is this the obama elections.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: jbeige on October 15, 2011, 06:05:16 PM
Jewish men and women should stay virgins    -    13 (15.7%)
Only Jewish women should stay virgins; Jewish men optional    -    6 (7.2%)
All men and women should stay virgins until marraige    -    32 (38.6%)
Only women should wait; men optional    -    1 (1.2%)
Optional for all; men and women    -    20 (24.1%)
For some yes; for some it would be worse to be a virgin until marraige since he/she might be a better spouse if they get it out of their system before hand    -    3 (3.6%)
I believe in complete celibacy    -    0 (0%)
I think everyone should practice premarital sex    -    8 (9.6%
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: NuclearKindness on May 24, 2016, 08:00:49 PM
Yacov, I think that is something which would take place in a Utopian world. I went to a modern orthodox yeshiva in the five towns for high school and I can tell you that you would be very disappointed at what people did there, to say the least. I don't think any of the girls there would of been acceptable for you by the time they graduated.

thats because its more modern then orthodox, a truly religious yeshiva would not have such things. And also they marry young which is a great idea. (around 18/19)
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: NuclearKindness on May 24, 2016, 08:02:41 PM
I think they mean not to have sex before you are married



No i meant celebacy..period!  It's just opposite to "Everyone should have sex all the time."


maybe the xtians do that but we don't. No sex until marriage but when married, have many Jewish babies! Duggars had at least 22, we should learn from them and beat that number
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex
Post by: NuclearKindness on May 24, 2016, 08:05:24 PM
I think they mean not to have sex before you are married



No i meant celebacy..period!  It's just opposite to "Everyone should have sex all the time."


Then No if we do that we wont procreate and the Muslims will grow



well there are some nuts out there who beleive in it and make the act of sex an unwanted sin. It obviously isn't

The act itself is not. With whom and when can be. And its not " some nuts" its the Torah.
Title: Re: Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Post by: NuclearKindness on May 24, 2016, 08:07:22 PM
I don't have a problem with someone being a mother at 14 if they're raised in a society where they're mature adults at this age. In our society such a thing is very perverted and there's no way an American 14 year old is ready to be a mother.

depends which household. I've seen 40 year old which havent grown up either.