JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Binyamin Yisrael on January 08, 2019, 12:41:04 PM
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Do you think that G-d uses Xtianitiy as a tool to bring the World closer to the truth? In the end, it will be destroyed just like Egypt was punished after it enslaved the Jews. G-d used Egypt as a tool to enslave the Jews so the Jews could become a nation.
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Of course!
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Do you think that G-d uses Xtianitiy as a tool to bring the World closer to the truth? Xtianity is an improvement for goyim over Greek and Roman mythology. At least they know about the Bible (What they call the Tanach). The Pre-Xtian pagans have no concept at all regarding G-d, The Bible, and The Jewish People.
I do not think that G-d uses chr*stianity as a tool to bring the world closer to the truth or that chr*stianity is an improvement for goyim over Greek and Roman mythology. As a former chr*stian and a former pagan I know both religions. I prefer paganism to chr*stianity. Paganism is life-affirming. It is not theologically antisemitic. I explained that chr*stians learn the new testament, not the Torah.
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Really great way to unite the forum and movement, Yacov. ::)
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Hashem is not in the habit of allowing things with no point to my knowledge. I agree with the Rambam that it is useful to inform people some sort of messiah will come, and the rest of the Rambam.
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Yikes, this is not really in the spirit of the forum.
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As for the content of the post, like them killing us isn't a problem any more. They convert ignorant Jews but so do muslims and athiests and budduhists. If you don't want them as a problem, teach and learn Torah and their most brilliant speech from their most brilliant speaker will be like Jacky Mason for you and your students.
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Yikes, this is not really in the spirit of the forum.
It is in the spirit of the Torah.
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It is in the spirit of the Torah.
Rav Kahane would go to events and interviews with only Xtians and would talk politics. He warned if they tried missionizing they wouldn't like what he said and to stick to politics. I'm very happy for everyone to promote Noachide ideology, and if there's another me inform him too, but we have points in common with them and if we focus on that here than we can not focus on our points in common, we can live in peace and help each other. There are counter missionary groups like Jews for Judaism who I love and help where it is the time and place to do this with them.
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As for the content of the post, like them killing us isn't a problem any more.
How can you say that when a chr*stian killed Jews in Pittsburgh?
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but we have points in common with them and if we focus on that here than we can not focus on our points in common, we can live in peace and help each other.
I don't buy that. I don't trust chr*stians. Sorry.
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I only know these who want to keel jooz:
moslems, negroes, neo-nazis, and Chuck Schumer.
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BTW are we talking about "christians" from StørmFrønt?
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How can you say that when a chr*stian killed Jews in Pittsburgh?
KKK members aren't acting out of their faith, they have a racial ideology that once fed into Nazism. Some are Xtians, but they have democrat members, plenty are atheist. As an organized effort for their faith, they aren't killing Jewish bodies.
Serbia is Xtian. Israel can have a good relationship with the nation. They should be wary of missionaries, but otherwise it is useful for us to figure out how to defeat our shared threats and harmful for us to fight while the worst of barbarians want our heads together on a spike, G-d forbid.
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Yes, I completely agree that those that try to missionize Jews are awful, and should not be on this forum.
But I've never been missionized by any Xtians ever.... unless they had no idea I was Jewish.
I don't believe that Christians (& other gentiles) are evil for not being Jewish. If they choose to become leftists/nazis/Muslim-lovers then yes, they are nothing but rotten evil filth.
The way I look at it, they have a golden opportunity to show they are not evil by supporting and recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, and supporting Jerusalem as the capital.
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I don't buy that. I don't trust chr*stians. Sorry.
It's like a billion people. Halacha is if you have a chance to do business with a secular Jew or any idolater like that, you do it with the idolater, he's afraid of his rock or stick or rock on a stick, the secular Jew isn't afraid of anything greater.
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It's like a billion people. Halacha is if you have a chance to do business with a secular Jew or any idolater like that, you do it with the idolater, he's afraid of his rock or stick or rock on a stick, the secular Jew isn't afraid of anything greater.
I am happy you mentioned halacha. According to halacha it is prohibited to fraternize closely with deviant believers and apostates.
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I am happy you mentioned halacha. According to halacha it is prohibited to fraternize closely with deviant believers and apostates.
Ah, but business leisure is the most effective part of the business day. The same applies in political matters. Yeah I don't understand shooting your mouth off and having a hoot about the news here for a hundred good reasons, predominately that if we are so rare and this is so important why are you wasting my time, but being friendly and personable while working together to solve problems or improve situations, same as any job, that is the furthest thing from forbidden.
There were idolaters who would come to Israel when there was a temple and bring animals for the Kohanim to sacrifice, it's not like we beat them up, we're tasked with being great examples to follow, not heresy-hunting inquisitors.
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Ah, but business leisure is the most effective part of the business day. The same applies in political matters. Yeah I don't understand shooting your mouth off and having a hoot about the news here for a hundred good reasons, predominately that if we are so rare and this is so important why are you wasting my time, but being friendly and personable while working together to solve problems or improve situations, same as any job, that is the furthest thing from forbidden.
There were idolaters who would come to Israel when there was a temple and bring animals for the Kohanim to sacrifice, it's not like we beat them up, we're tasked with being great examples to follow, not heresy-hunting inquisitors.
People on this forum fraternize closely. In fact, you and I fraternize closely. You call me bro. I call you bro. If you fraternize closely with a deviant believer or an apostate, you violate halacha. This is the Torah Law for Gentiles. The Torah Law for Jews is more restrictive.
Jews are commanded to compel others to act in the correct way. There is no way to change that.
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People on this forum fraternize closely. In fact, you and I fraternize closely. You call me bro. I call you bro. If you fraternize closely with a deviant believer or an apostate, you violate halacha. This is the Torah Law for Gentiles. The Torah Law for Jews is more restrictive.
Jews are commanded to compel others to act in the correct way. There is no way to change that.
Bro is like buddy I say that. Maybe if there's a crew to handle a problem, fine you get into the inner circle but like a bunch of them here are useful enough to be on the squad. Sometimes I feel like an old dude hanging out with buddies moaning about woes with the convos, but most are highly functional, we didn't create a bad thing here, ask a Rabbi.
Look at how Abraham went about it. He'd give people everything and treat them like kings without knowing a thing about them, which would definitely include not like bringing up that right away like "hey nice hat your idol sucks", then at the end he'd be like "thank G-d for what you received" and one guy would be like "the tree?" and he'd be like "c'mon bro you're way more awesome then a tree that's just funny Hashem is this..." but like he'd make the proper context and say it with the correct politeness and just would get them to keep the 7 and go on their way and live well and stop sacrificing their kids and stuff. Like if you save a city of faggots on accident like that time don't take their crap and don't talk to them, but they're like everyone from the nations have always been. These aren't malicious monsters looking to do damage, I was there, you really wanna be nice, and like from your point of view as a Catholic or whatever all the other religions are doing a bunch of crazy garbage you see is wrong, and like there's a section on Jews in your book that ensures you won't think twice and you're like yeah clearly I'm the right one, and you go around trying to be nice and nervously use apologetic or manipulation if you debate with atheists or other religions and they point out a hitch, that's like the worst thing they'll do other than these new missionaries that hunt little kids in parks. They want to be good and do what's right, yeah you have to know their religion says to convert people to their religion so they'll try to do that, but that is at worst annoying to anyone who knows anything about Torah, I can learn more in a sentence with Rashi than three years of "bible study". Like if you compile the total sum of my knowledge of all the Xtian groups I was in and studied from the height of orthodoxy with jesuits to mormons, I have double the functional information in a week of yeshiva, how can you possibly be scared of their words?
Maybe in Serbia it's different and you'll get knocked out if they know your religious beliefs, I have no idea, not trying to judge you, I'm just saying put on a bit of empathy for a second and talk to the people that muslims are trying to hunt and kill same as you with a normal level of respect, you can't blame them for what they believe, they don't have what you have. If all you gained from all the knowledge Torah is giving you to perfect yourself is that you can denigrate those that know less better, it didn't make you a tzadik, you became a rasha.
I'm obligated to tell my brother something if he did it, so for a Jew I have 613 to inform him nicely and properly if he missed [to help him up and not put him down at all] and for a Noachide I have 7. I am accomplishing something when I do that, and if I miss something, I am so happy that someone tells me, I want to be good but I am not all knowing or of 100% flawless midot. What are you hoping to gain by saying "hey u suck brah"? You want them to leave here? Just want to have an organized Noachide vs them debate B.I.R.T. you rock and they don't?
If you're trying to be like a tricky missionary and guilt them into it or whatever, I've seen it plenty, and would be interesting to watch it being done to them after the countless times I see it by them, but like do it like they do all fake nice and stuff so it's funny, what you said, all I can say is you don't need to lose your sense of humor to find Hashem.
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Bro, why are you mentioning Serbia? I live in Croatia, not Serbia.
I have my reasons for being here. I do not prevent chr*stians from being here, but I do not believe that they are sincere allies. I think I have the right to say that. This is the General Discussion section, not the shut your mouth if you have a different opinion section.
When chr*stians become observant Noahides, I will have no reason to doubt the sincerity of their support.
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Just for the record, all religions are full of it, including yours.
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Just for the record, all religions are full of it, including yours.
I do not understand this reply. Who are you writing to? Full of what? Are you an atheist?
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I am a secular Jew. I don't think there exists the one true religion.
I do not understand this reply. Who are you writing to? Full of what? Are you an atheist?
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I am a secular Jew. I don't think there exists the one true religion.
That explains some of your previous replies. According to your profile you have been a member of JTF since 2006. I doubt I will change your mind. Nevertheless, it saddens me that I, a Gentile, believe in HaShem and you do not. Stay well.
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Thanks stay well too.
That explains some of your previous replies. According to your profile you have been a member of JTF since 2006. I doubt I will change your mind. Nevertheless, it saddens me that I, a Gentile, believe in HaShem and you do not. Stay well.
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Bro, why are you mentioning Serbia? I live in Croatia, not Serbia.
I have my reasons for being here. I do not prevent chr*stians from being here, but I do not believe that they are sincere allies. I think I have the right to say that. This is the General Discussion section, not the shut your mouth if you have a different opinion section.
When chr*stians become observant Noahides, I will have no reason to doubt the sincerity of their support.
Well like you'll know Seribans are way chiller than Croats then. I am cool with you being here. I did not say you are preventing people from being here, but if you call someone the enemy who's trying to be your friend like you're not working together, we think there are things we can work together on, if you do not believe so then say it and we can discuss that.
Define: sincere allies, and define: allies.
I do not believe in the concept of rights. You have obligations to do some things and obligations to not do others, and all other things, which this falls under, you get what you get and take. I can tell you stop and you can say no la la.
Also, semantics, but the support is almost always sincere from this place, except in the case of big missionary groups. The average American farmer in Iowa that supports Israel can't do much to much outside of his crops, he's not supporting Israel because he wants Haifa or Japanase support, he thinks it's the right thing to do and supporting the Arabs over us is the wrong thing to do. I would ask, "what is the real reason for their support", but it's a fake question that baits you into a generalization, so really you should have said is that they have ulterior motives, and not all, but many and they all should if they follow every letter their religion, that all relate to converting Jews to their religion. So you have to expect that they're going to try to hint at and incorporate some JC thing into everything they say. You have Debbie Schafer or whatever here that comes on and does it, painfully obvious to the trained eye.
That explains some of your previous replies. According to your profile you have been a member of JTF since 2006. I doubt I will change your mind. Nevertheless, it saddens me that I, a Gentile, believe in HaShem and you do not. Stay well.
Yeah embarrassing... What do you even know about any other religion, Zelhar? I've been around this stupid wet ball and been though every religion you can pronounce. They would wipe my feet with their hair after six months and act like I was an idol, it doesn't take longer than that to understand every aspect of any other religion if you study seriously, and they all do half-good emotional manipulation that had as much chance against marketing tactics as using political tactics against Trump doing the same had. You can geal some chill and health stuff off Eastern religions, but you better kiss your butt before sleep every night and be thankful it was born in a Jewish house with a religion that gives you access to all the information out there, and you don't think bathing in a toxic stream for your idol is clever.
You said you think? Who cares what any of us think about religious matters? Read what the Rabbis and prophets say, you shake. I've been at doing Judaism for a while now, I'm still a shrimp ant in a room full of beards, I can walk into any other religion I was in now and take over for the pope to cheers. Also, it's a rule that when someone makes a blanket statement about "religions" it is a topic he knows such an abstract tiny amount about he can't tell the difference between night and day.
If you think the answer is in religion, go study the religions of the world, ask me questions while you're at it, you'll realize how much you should be kissing the dirt you were born on. If you think athiests have it, you're wrong they know crap and are willing to sacrifice logic and all moral faculties on the altar of their secular humanist religion. They have "faith in humanity" to do anything more than be self-serving in the short term, and since they know they're ridiculous they lovingly tolerate the monsters that are the irreligious version of their religion, I hate people death to old people and babies. I can't even tolerate it, not because of emotional reasons, but you just have not met or talked to enough of these people, they don't even want to use the tools that can give people answers because it proved a hoax someone made on their side once or twice, so no answers there waste of time.
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Define: sincere allies, and define: allies.
I do not believe in the concept of rights. You have obligations to do some things and obligations to not do others, and all other things, which this falls under, you get what you get and take. I can tell you stop and you can say no la la.
Also, semantics, but the support is almost always sincere from this place, except in the case of big missionary groups. The average American farmer in Iowa that supports Israel can't do much to much outside of his crops, he's not supporting Israel because he wants Haifa or Japanase support, he thinks it's the right thing to do and supporting the Arabs over us is the wrong thing to do. I would ask, "what is the real reason for their support", but it's a fake question that baits you into a generalization, so really you should have said is that they have ulterior motives, and not all, but many and they all should if they follow every letter their religion, that all relate to converting Jews to their religion. So you have to expect that they're going to try to hint at and incorporate some JC thing into everything they say. You have Debbie Schafer or whatever here that comes on and does it, painfully obvious to the trained eye.
The meaning of sincere allies is obvious to a fluent English speaker. I don't wish to define them beyond their obvious meaning.
The new testament is the Greek Mein Kampf. If you follow Mein Kampf, you cannot be an ally of Israel. That is my opinion. If you agree, that's fine. If you disagree, that's fine too.
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The meaning of sincere allies is obvious to a fluent English speaker. I don't wish to define them beyond their obvious meaning.
The new testament is the Greek Mein Kampf. If you follow Mein Kampf, you cannot be an ally of Israel. That is my opinion. If you agree, that's fine. If you disagree, that's fine too.
Rav Kahane defined allies as people with shared interests for now. In that case they would be sincerely that. There are irredemable points of contention. As long as we're honest about it, Jews don't pretend they think he's just a prophet and Catholics don't pretend we don't consider missionary work hostile, we can put all that aside and focus on our alliance against the goat-humpers.
Like it's not like we're entrusting them lordship in the realm and they swear an oath to our lineage. Even mercenary leaders would just say, "your enemies are my enemies", and this is a completely other nation that wants to take the flank against a shared enemy. You're like nah I don't like em. K fine like maybe they do their thing like send missionaries to the middle east and we do our thing completely separate away, even that minimal example we can still have a group to share information so we're both smarter. Yeah we think we're going to perfect the world and they think they'll be raptured while it cooks (or some after like the first 250 degrees on the stove) and a million other tactical considerations that would lead me to talk about certain long-term strategy with you more, but for now you can't say they're useless, or we don't help by spreading what facts and reason we find to them.
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Mein Kamph deserves its own post. The book starts "I wanted to be a faggy artist, but I couldn't because of the Jews" and the message is kill Jews. The New Testament is the same thing as every other religion before with Jewish names on stuff, and a couple like "Jews are the son of the devil" [that line being in John]. You must infer that this means kill Jews, it doesn't say kill Jews. Mein Kamph and the Koran are like a Jew-hating photograph while the New Testament has some late period blurry Monet impressionism. If you erase history till before the enlightenment, any yahoo can take the book and use it to justify burning villages of Jews alive again, but the book is the danger it always was in regards to merciless slaughter, the people that follow it they choose as they please the "holy spirit" told me screw you, so it's the heart. OK not reliable, changes every five minutes, but some people have such hearts they can hold to the good, and it's the whole reason why white people had the merit to convert more than any other nation, sometimes their hearts make them really good people.
It's not the same, the New Testament was used to kill more Jews then Mein Kamph, and today would scarcely be conceivable as a tool for slaughtering Jews, but it's not impossible in the distant future after global catastrophe that changes the order of everything G-d forbid. For now they are allies against our shared threats and not enemies, and even after like they're just slightly hostile neutrals because of the missionaries, so it's not like we need to put up our spikes on their front, let them set up camp in the field next to ours, a battle's coming and they have girls screaming in Saudi Arabia to be freed like ours, they're coming to the same battle, might as well coordinate.
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That explains some of your previous replies. According to your profile you have been a member of JTF since 2006. I doubt I will change your mind. Nevertheless, it saddens me that I, a Gentile, believe in HaShem and you do not. Stay well.
sorry to bud in.
I always thought you were orthodox for some reason. I always imagined you in a black hat and coat. I don't know.
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sorry to bud in.
I always thought you were orthodox for some reason. I always imagined you in a black hat and coat. I don't know.
Yeah I kinda thought he was religious too, that was like a coming out of the cloest thing, I was all, "Oh..."
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I guess you should have asked me sooner.
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The meaning of sincere allies is obvious to a fluent English speaker. I don't wish to define them beyond their obvious meaning.
The new testament is the Greek Mein Kampf. If you follow Mein Kampf, you cannot be an ally of Israel. That is my opinion. If you agree, that's fine. If you disagree, that's fine too.
The Koran is the Arabic Mein Kampf. I remember Chaim said Churchill called it the Mein Kampf of war.
Here's a better direct quote. He actually called Mein Kampf the new Koran.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2008/02/winston-churchill-compares-mein-kampf-to-the
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The New Testament is the same thing as every other religion before with Jewish names on stuff, and a couple like "Jews are the son of the devil" [that line being in John].
So that means Yeshu is the son of the devil. What an illogical religion. The only way to explain that is the Farrakhan approach. He claims Jacob was an evil black scientist named Ya'akub who created the white race (the 12 tribes of Israel) in a test tube and that Jews are devils "and when Allah give da signal, Elijah Mohammad in da mother ship gonna suck up all of da white devili race, UMM HMM.". So according to that, Yeshu was the real Jew and the current Jews are imposters. Similarly, Muslims say the real Jews were all Muslims and the Jews changed the Bible and the Koran has the real story.
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The Koran is the Arabic Mein Kampf. I remember Chaim said Churchill called it the Mein Kampf of war.
Here's a better direct quote. He actually called Mein Kampf the new Koran.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2008/02/winston-churchill-compares-mein-kampf-to-the
It is, but the new testament is worse because it is the first antisemitic holy book. The new testament influenced the koran.
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Do you think that G-d uses Xtianitiy as a tool to bring the World closer to the truth?
“Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Moshiach and was executed by the court was also spoken of in Daniel’s prophecies [Daniel 11:14], “The renegades among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.“
Can there be a greater stumbling block than [Christianity]? All the prophets spoke of
Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior, who would gather their dispersed ones and strengthen their [observance of] the mitzvos. In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd.
Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Moshiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], “I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose.
How will this come about? [meaning, in the future, not that the nations which follow these religions already serve G-d] The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: “These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time.” Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: “Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them.”
When the true Messiah king will arise and prove successful, his [position becoming] exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage; their prophets and ancestors cause them to err".
(Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melochim 11)
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I guess you should have asked me sooner.
that's strange. I thought I quoted you. Instead I quoted someone else. but you did properly answer.
hey, you're honest, so that counts plenty.
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Just a general remark to all,
I don't believe Christians in general are a problem.
There are those who don't like you but none the less support Israel.
There are some who want to replace the jews. But those are just some opportunists.
Seriously, do you see them screaming in the streets against the jews?
Everyone's immediate problem is not the christians.
I'm sure a few more head chops will convince you who the real oink oink enemy is.
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“Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Moshiach and was executed by the court was also spoken of in Daniel’s prophecies [Daniel 11:14], “The renegades among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.“
Can there be a greater stumbling block than [Christianity]? All the prophets spoke of
Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior, who would gather their dispersed ones and strengthen their [observance of] the mitzvos. In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd.
Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Moshiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], “I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose.
How will this come about? [meaning, in the future, not that the nations which follow these religions already serve G-d] The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: “These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time.” Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: “Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them.”
When the true Messiah king will arise and prove successful, his [position becoming] exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage; their prophets and ancestors cause them to err".
(Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melochim 11)
Does that mean Islam is also a tool?
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Does that mean Islam is also a tool?
Since chr*stianity and islam are forbidden, this is an academic discussion. Outside of practical Torah Law there are only subjective opinions.
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Just a general remark to all,
I don't believe Christians in general are a problem.
There are those who don't like you but none the less support Israel.
There are some who want to replace the jews. But those are just some opportunists.
Seriously, do you see them screaming in the streets against the jews?
Everyone's immediate problem is not the christians.
I'm sure a few more head chops will convince you who the real oink oink enemy is.
I had many discussions with chr*stians. I see them making anti-Jewish videos: https://youtu.be/jyOhrl_lrIA
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I had many discussions with chr*stians. I see them making anti-Jewish videos: https://youtu.be/jyOhrl_lrIA
Ok. that's your experience.
I'm entitled to my own experience.
I don't bother the jews.
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In Europe the big institutionalized churches are agents of the regressive left. They are enemies not just for Israel but for the future of liberty and western civilization in Europe.
Just a general remark to all,
I don't believe Christians in general are a problem.
There are those who don't like you but none the less support Israel.
There are some who want to replace the jews. But those are just some opportunists.
Seriously, do you see them screaming in the streets against the jews?
Everyone's immediate problem is not the christians.
I'm sure a few more head chops will convince you who the real oink oink enemy is.
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In Europe the big institutionalized churches are agents of the regressive left. They are enemies not just for Israel but for the future of liberty and western civilization in Europe.
thank you. they are fake. just like in communist china they have fake Buddhists.
i dont see a reason christians would hate jews when half of what they read are jewish books.
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Since chr*stianity and islam are forbidden, this is an academic discussion. Outside of practical Torah Law there are only subjective opinions.
It's also forbidden to worship Egyptians gods and goddesses but Egypt enslaving the Jews was still a tool. It's forbidden to murder Jews but doesn't mean the Holocaust wasn't a tool to bring Jews back to Israel.