JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: muman613 on July 26, 2009, 08:31:03 PM
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Recently we had a debate concerning why Judaism establishes Matrilinear Descent. This article from Breslev.co.il does a good job of discussing the reasons.
http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/torah_portion/chanas_blessing/a_mothers_essence_vaetchanan.aspx?id=12492&language=english (http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/torah_portion/chanas_blessing/a_mothers_essence_vaetchanan.aspx?id=12492&language=english)
Parashat Va’etchanan
WHO IS A JEW?
The issue of “who is a Jew?” arouses much debate. In the wake of numerous immigrants entering Israel, the subject has taken on new relevance, since many of them are intermarried. Naturally, people who have been persecuted due to their Jewish ancestry feel the right to enjoy the privileges of being Jewish as well. Not everyone is ready to accept that the Jewish lineage depends solely on the mother, and that, according to Halacha (Jewish law), a child born to a gentile mother is not considered Jewish, even if the father is Jewish. The popular explanation that only the identity of the mother can be ascertained is no longer valid in our time, since the identity of the father can now be verified through genetic tests.
THE SON OF A GENTILE MOTHER
The Scriptural source for the law of “who is a Jew?” is found in this week’s parashah: “Neither shall you intermarry with them; your daughter you shall not give unto his son, nor his daughter shall you take unto your son. For he will turn away your son from following Me, that they may serve other gods...” (Devarim 7:3-4) Scripture speaks here of two cases of intermarriage:
1) A Jewess becomes the wife of a gentile.
2) A Jew becomes the husband of a gentile woman.
It is not quite clear from the verse who will be the one to turn the other away from following G-d. If the verse referred to the negative influence of the non-Jewish party over his/her Jewish spouse, then we would expect two parallel statements expressing the reason for the prohibition.
1) “For he will turn away your daughter from following Me.”
2) “For she will turn away your son from following Me.”
Yet, Scripture mentions neither of these two cases, stating only the following unexpected third possibility: “For he will turn away your son from following Me,” Rashi explains that “he” refers to the gentile husband of the Jewess, but who is then “your son?” that this gentile man may turn away from following Hashem? “Your son” then must refer to your descendant the son of your daughter, who is at risk of being turned away from the Torah path by his non-Jewish father. Grandchildren are often called children in Scripture (See Rashi, Bereishit 20:12). This teaches us that only the son of a Jewess and a gentile father is called “your son,” but the son of a non-Jewish mother with a Jewish father is not defined as your son. Therefore, in regards to the statement,“his daughter you shall not take to your son”, it does not add, “for she will turn away your son (grandson) from following Me”, since Scripturedoes not consider the son of this gentile mother “your son” because he does not belong by birth to the Jewish people. The Halacha follows Rashi’s explanation which is supported by the Talmud stating, “The son from a Jewish mother is called your son, but the son from a gentile mother is not called your son” (Kiddushin 68b). Based on this source, Rambam establishes as Halacha that a child born of a gentile woman is not considered Jewish (Prohibited Relationships, chapter 12, halacha 7).
THE MOTHER GIVES OVER HER ESSENCE
How do we explain the fact that only the mother determines the Jewishness of her children? What magic power does the mother have to influence her children more than the father? Rabbeinu Bachaya on Bereishit 29:25 explains that the mother gives over her essence to her offspring. This is why the matriarchs named their children, as the name expresses a person’s essence. Rachel's children inherited her craft of silence. When Ya’acov sent her gifts, Lavan took them and gave them to Leah, yet Rachel remained silent. Therefore, all her children were masters of silence. Binyamin, the son of Rachel, knew that Yosef was sold, but kept silent. Esther, from the tribe of Binyamin, son of Rachel, did not reveal the identity of her people (Megillah 13b). Leah was the master of the craft of thanksgiving and praise (hodaya). Therefore, all her children were masters of hodaya, as it states, “Yehudah, your brothers shall praise you” (yoducha) (Bereishit 49:8). David, her descendant, said: “O Give thanks to Hashem...” (Tehillim 136:1)
A SPACE WITHIN HER
The Imrei Shefer compares the womb, to the mikvah, which has the capacity to convert a person to Judaism. He explains that the mother determines the spiritual genetics of the Jewish people because of the great impact the womb has on the unborn child. The fact that the mother carries the baby within her reveals her capacity to carry on the Jewish lineage. The mother is characterized as one who makes space within herself for another being to grow. This ultimate kindness which continues throughout the role of motherhood can be compared to the way G-d created the world. In order to allow the existence of the Universe, G-d, so to speak, had to constrict His own essence and make space for something other than Himself. This is the secret of the “tzimtzum” (constriction) explained by our kabbalistic masters. When pouring wine out from a glass, a reshimo (residue) adheres to the glass. Likewise, when G-d made space within Himself, a drop of Divinity remained within the vacuum. This imprint affects G-d's creation and imbues it with His essence. By sacrificing her own personal space for the sake of her unborn baby, the mother imparts her essence to her offspring in the same way that G-d, by constricting Himself, imparts His essence to mankind - the crown of His Creation. This explains why the mother is the carrier of the Jewish lineage.
(Rebbetzen Chana Bracha Siegelbaum is Director of Midreshet B’erot Bat Ayin in Gush Etzion. Her full book on the weekly Torah portion can be ordered from [email protected] . There are also still dedication opportunities available)
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Ok, good post.
Now: my mom was born Roman Catholic (she is Atheist now, though), and all her family is descended from Asturians (North Spaniards) and North Italians. I'm absolutely proud of that lineage, by the way.
My paternal side is Ashkenazi. Though Atheists by religion, they are still Jews.
Am I a Jew?
I don't know, you tell me
Do I want to be a Jew?
No, I don't "want" to be a Jew, I'm not religious, I don't do Sabbath and I don't eat Kosher (even though I don't like pork and don't eat it). Still, I like most Ashkenazi traditions and history. I'm proud of my Ashkenazi lineage too, and I like Poland and Russia as nations.
Am I Zionist?
Yes, I'm a radical Zionist. I 100% support Israel and I like some Kahanists (but I don't like the JDL that much). I support the Jewish Task Front, obviously.
I just don't see that the message of the Torah and Talmud are that precious. I mean, acording to the Torah, Jews are a diasporic people that need to be in an eternal diaspora. Why? Why can't Jews have a homeland now?
If anybody watched Defiance, the movie, when they see the marsh, Tuvia is actually hoping for a miracle. His brother says "Tuvia! G-d will not part this waters, we have to do it ourselves!"
"But how?"
"Not by miracles! By our strenght!"
That's why I think that being religious is not that important. I want to preserve Ashkenazi traditions as an European nation that was essential in the development of Europe and thus the West as a whole, but I won't sit here waiting for G-d to make things for me
Let him choose another people, Jews suffered enough already. I mean, where was he in the Second World War? The Jews who survived didn't wait for miracles, they survived by their own strenght as a group.
I also think that while Ashkenazi, Sefaradi and Mizrahi Jews should all work together in Israel united as Jews, each group should have the right to preserve their own identity. Arabic should be no longer an official language in Israel, the official languages should be Hebrew and Yiddish (yes, Yiddish, they were and are a mayority, why shouldn't they have their language as official?)
Anyway, if I was a little bit agressive or offensive, please, believe me: I don't mean that. I don't mean any disrespect for religious Jews or anything, it's just my own, personal opinion. Thanks for understanding.
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Dunadan, you are not Jewish if your mother isn't Jewish. You don't have to observe Jewish law. In your post, you associate religious Jews with doing nothing and waiting for miracles. There are some religious Jews who want to do nothing and wait for miracles, but that's not what Judaism is all about. Rabbi Tarfon said in Pirkei Avot, "It is not your part to finish the task, yet you are not free to desist from it." You also wrote that the Torah says that Jews need to be in an eternal diaspora. That's not true. Living in Israel is a requirement in Judaism. There are some anti-zionists who oppose leaving the exile now, but even they don't believe that the Jews will eternally be in exile. One more point is that Jews of all backgrounds need to be unified. Ashkenazim, mizrachim, Sefaradim, teimanim, etc. all have the same Torah.
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Here you can read about Judaism and living in Israel.
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/679180/jewish/The-Choseness-of-the-Land-of-Israel.htm (http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/679180/jewish/The-Choseness-of-the-Land-of-Israel.htm)
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Ok, that's true and I understand.
But still: what would you say if you start researching ancestry and you find out that your great great grandmother bu your mkother side was not Jewish? Would you be Jewish then? What if a Rabbi discovers that?
It's not that I want to burst your bubble or be considered a Jew, but I know about Jewish ethnic makeup, and especially about Ashkenazis, and most of the Yiddish Jews are descended from Slavic tribes (actually some Ashkenazis consider themselves Slavs) as well as Khazars and Germanic tribed. Russian Jews are totally Russian. And I bet that at least some Jews can find a non-Jewish ancestor by their maternal side (I mean the mother of the mother, etc).
And all of this is if you consider only the Hebrews to be Jews (which is a fair point, of course)
And as for Jews living in Israel, a good deal of Jews, especially Americans, say that real Jews are only the diasporic ones (which is nonsense in my opinion, but maybe it actually has a religious source, I don't know).
By the way, do you then believe that Israel's policy (only one Jewish grandparent to enter Israel) is wrong and that it should be replaces by having a Jewish mother?
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Ok, that's true and I understand.
But still: what would you say if you start researching ancestry and you find out that your great great grandmother bu your mkother side was not Jewish? Would you be Jewish then? What if a Rabbi discovers that?
It's not that I want to burst your bubble or be considered a Jew, but I know about Jewish ethnic makeup, and especially about Ashkenazis, and most of the Yiddish Jews are descended from Slavic tribes (actually some Ashkenazis consider themselves Slavs) as well as Khazars and Germanic tribed. Russian Jews are totally Russian. And I bet that at least some Jews can find a non-Jewish ancestor by their maternal side (I mean the mother of the mother, etc).
And all of this is if you consider only the Hebrews to be Jews (which is a fair point, of course)
And as for Jews living in Israel, a good deal of Jews, especially Americans, say that real Jews are only the diasporic ones (which is nonsense in my opinion, but maybe it actually has a religious source, I don't know).
By the way, do you then believe that Israel's policy (only one Jewish grandparent to enter Israel) is wrong and that it should be replaces by having a Jewish mother?
I do believe that Israel's policy is wrong regarding who is a Jew. A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or has undergone an Orthodox conversion. Ashkenazi Jews and all other Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites, not Slavic tribes or Khazars or any other groups.
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I do believe that Israel's policy is wrong regarding who is a Jew. A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or has undergone an Orthodox conversion. Ashkenazi Jews and all other Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites, not Slavic tribes or Khazars or any other groups.
Here I disagree with you, the first time maybe. As Arthur Koestler, Paul Kriwakzek and Paul Wexler proved, Ashkenazi Jews are mostly, if not solely descended from tribes in Eastern Europe. It's not a matter of admixture, it's a matter of conversion.
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I do believe that Israel's policy is wrong regarding who is a Jew. A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or has undergone an Orthodox conversion. Ashkenazi Jews and all other Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites, not Slavic tribes or Khazars or any other groups.
Here I disagree with you, the first time maybe. As Arthur Koestler, Paul Kriwakzek and Paul Wexler proved, Ashkenazi Jews are mostly, if not solely descended from tribes in Eastern Europe. It's not a matter of admixture, it's a matter of conversion.
That's anti-semitic propaganda. How did they "prove" that Ashkenazim are descended mostly from converts?
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DunDan doesn't know what he is talking about here... There has been a lot of genetic proof that Ashkenazic Jews have genetic traces of the Kohen gene which is present in all descendents of the original Israelites.
What this fool is saying is pure antisemitic propaganda along the lines of the "Jews are Khazars" myth...
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DunDan doesn't know what he is talking about here... There has been a lot of genetic proof that Ashkenazic Jews have genetic traces of the Kohen gene which is present in all descendents of the original Israelites.
What this fool is saying is pure antisemitic propaganda along the lines of the "Jews are Khazars" myth...
Antisemitic propaganda made by three Jews named Koestler, Wexler and Kriwakzek? Even when Koestler literally means "The Khazar", you doubt that at least some Jews are descended from Khazaria?
Who cares about genes? It proved to be [censored], that "Kohen gene" is present in non-Jewish populations too and genes change with aging.
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DunDan doesn't know what he is talking about here... There has been a lot of genetic proof that Ashkenazic Jews have genetic traces of the Kohen gene which is present in all descendents of the original Israelites.
What this fool is saying is pure antisemitic propaganda along the lines of the "Jews are Khazars" myth...
Antisemitic propaganda made by three Jews named Koestler, Wexler and Kriwakzek? Even when Koestler literally means "The Khazar", you doubt that at least some Jews are descended from Khazaria?
Who cares about genes? It proved to be excrement, that "Kohen gene" is present in non-Jewish populations too and genes change with aging.
Those people are self-hating Jews. Their ideas are anti-semitic.
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and genes change with aging.
LOL, BS. You clearly know nothing about genetics. What you've written here is a gross distortion. And don't start your lying bs about "oh but some genes do get damaged in aging" yadda yadda yadda, I know what you're referring to but to present it as you did is a massive distortion. Games played by the ignorant to confuse other ignorant....
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Ok, that's true and I understand.
But still: what would you say if you start researching ancestry and you find out that your great great grandmother bu your mkother side was not Jewish? Would you be Jewish then?
No. Then you wouldn't be. Despite what you might have thought. But this rarely if ever happens. Jewish ancestry is pretty consistent. It is only the last handful of generations where intermarriage has become so rampant, and coinciding with that, Jews have become delusional about who is born a Jew and who isn't. We never thought that way. We used to know what marriage produces a Jewish child and what one does not. They didn't 'fight the rabbis' over that or create new religions like Reform/Deform Judaism. They just left the fold.
What if a Rabbi discovers that?
Whether you yourself discover it or your rabbi, or a doctor or a garbage man, the truth is the truth.
It's not that I want to burst your bubble or be considered a Jew, but I know about Jewish ethnic makeup, and especially about Ashkenazis, and most of the Yiddish Jews are descended from
Is there a point to anything you're saying? Jews lived in Eastern Europe in a variety of places and "ethnicity" was not kept entirely distinct. This happened in every diaspora in every location, not just to Ashkenazim.
Jews are totally Russian.
No, they aren't.
And I bet that at least some Jews can find a non-Jewish ancestor by their maternal side (I mean the mother of the mother, etc).
Most who can go back a few generations cannot find such a thing and that's because in the vast majority of cases, it does not exist. You can't find something (a non-Jewish ancestor by maternal side) that does not exist. But Jews back then were smart. They KNEW that if they married a non Jewish woman, their kid is not Jewish. They didn't play pretend or try to distort Judaism like some do today because they feel guilty about disconnecting themselves from the line of Jewish tradition. Jews were rather insular, not only did they prefer to marry Jewish, most goyim (and their religions) did not allow them to intermarry or refused to marry Jews.
And as for Jews living in Israel, a good deal of Jews, especially Americans, say that real Jews are only the diasporic ones (which is nonsense in my opinion, but maybe it actually has a religious source, I don't know).
You say something arbitrary with no fact behind it, so I'll reply with something equally arbitrary, but at least partially truthful, unlike in your case. Most Jews, especially French Jews say that the only real Jews are those who have a Jewish mother or converted, and that Jews in Israel have made a great self-sacrifice to merit the land of Israel. Ok... Why exactly should I care what you think most American Jews think (they don't think that, btw). And who cares what I think French Jews think?
By the way, do you then believe that Israel's policy (only one Jewish grandparent to enter Israel) is wrong and that it should be replaces by having a Jewish mother?
Yes.
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I do believe that Israel's policy is wrong regarding who is a Jew. A Jew is someone who has a Jewish mother or has undergone an Orthodox conversion. Ashkenazi Jews and all other Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites, not Slavic tribes or Khazars or any other groups.
Here I disagree with you, the first time maybe. As Arthur Koestler, Paul Kriwakzek and Paul Wexler proved,
No, they didn't prove. The academic consensus is overwhelmingly against them. You don't honestly believe they proved or else you are just intellectually lazy and refuse to look at the work that refutes them. If you don't honestly believe it but type it here anyway to mislead people, you're a liar and propagandist.
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Antisemitic propaganda made by three Jews named Koestler, Wexler and Kriwakzek? Even when Koestler literally means "The Khazar", you doubt that at least some Jews are descended from Khazaria?
Who cares about genes? It proved to be excrement,
Now you are completely mixed up in your lies. On the one hand you want to say the hell with genetics and throw science out the window because it's too consistent with truth for you to handle. On the other hand, you want to say that koestler et al scientifically "proved" descent of the Jews from some tribe..... LOL: And how exactly does one PROVE DESCENT without consulting genetics, considering genetic studies or genetic inheritance? Magic ancestor voodoo? LOL. You're a clown.
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What you fail to realize is that Jews were in places like Italy, France, and Germany well before any Khazar King or his conversion or that of his govt ministers. Afterall, how would they have any idea what to CONVERT TO if there were no Jews around anywhere in Europe? LOL. You people operate in a illogic vacuum.
REAL HISTORIANS show that likely there was a mixed population of Jew and gentile in Khazaria (before the famous 3-religion "dispute") who were friendly with each other, and Jews there had more assimilationist tendency, there were also Muslims in Khazaria, but the kingdom bordered the edges of the Moslem and Xtian empires on either side and identified with neither. They decided to turn their kingdom into a modified Jewish state to compete with their neighbors. Yes there was some type of rabbinic dispute/competition as the legend of the Kuzari records and khazarian historical records indicate, but likely the conversion and choice of Judaism was also politically motivated. Many of the people converted, but the Jews didn't need to, obviously. This society interacted with Jews in Egypt and other places, they didn't last very long because of overambition in conquest, and like I said, Jews already existed firmly in other places in Europe before (and after) the rise and fall of the tiny Jewish khazarian empire. (To its credit, the little Khazar kingdom blocked the spread of Islam in Europe!) If many of those who converted did so without sincerity, it is unlikely they kept their newfound faith after the fall and destruction of the khazar empire.
Of course if they converted sincerely, then they are - get this - REAL JEWS! That being said, it is likely that there was sincerity involved as the khazarian documents indicate a real faith, and that they even paid expert Talmudic rabbis to help spread the religion and educate the masses in real Judaism. Where do you think those rabbis came from? LOL
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I looked at my family tree and it is 100% Jewish going back at least 100+ years {after that we lose track}. My family was established in Jewish communities in Poland and in Ukraine in the 1800s.
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Dúnadan, first you must understand that Jews have a long established definition of who is a Jew, as we explained here before. It is based on The female lineage and allows for conversions. In theory, even if most of the Ashkenazi gene pool was Kazar rather than ethnic Hebrew, it wouldn't make a difference for us Jews, as long as those Khazars were properly and truthfully converted. But the Khazar theory is completely wrong. I am not sure if you believe it yourself because first you said the Jews from Russia are "totally Russians" then you said Ashkenazi Jews (and without a doubt the russian Jews are ashkenazi Jews) are Khazars.
In any case, the Kazar theory is a total lie. The Ashkenazi jews originate (as a distinct sub group of Jewry) from western Europe, from communities in the Rhine region that is now part of France and Germany. These Jews were gradually pushed out of western europe by persecutions and crusades. They settled in central and eastern Europe, in Poland, Lithuania, Prussia, Romania, Hungary etc. And they only became Russian subject due to the Russian expansion into Poland, The Ukraine, Romania and the Baltics.
The Khazar Jews didn't survive as a distinct community. Only or mostly the nobility class of the Kazars converted to Judaism. And after they have been subjugated by Russians, Mongols and Persians, they didn't survive as a distinct Jewish community.
Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.
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I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.
And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.
Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.
Turko-Mongol? Even when they were recognized by their "long red hair"?
Just as Ashkenazi Jews, look.
Khazars are refered as "Slavo-Turkic", though they were not ethnically Turkic (culturally Turkic, maybe)
Dúnadan, first you must understand that Jews have a long established definition of who is a Jew, as we explained here before. It is based on The female lineage and allows for conversions. In theory, even if most of the Ashkenazi gene pool was Kazar rather than ethnic Hebrew, it wouldn't make a difference for us Jews, as long as those Khazars were properly and truthfully converted
Fair, this is true
Of course if they converted sincerely, then they are - get this - REAL JEWS! That being said, it is likely that there was sincerity involved as the khazarian documents indicate a real faith, and that they even paid expert Talmudic rabbis to help spread the religion and educate the masses in real Judaism. Where do you think those rabbis came from? LOL
And did I never denied this?
My point is: Ashkenazis are descended from Sorbians, Polabians, Khazars, Germanic tribes, and Western Jewish influence (from France, Italy, etc). The percentage of Hebrew blood in them is probably quite little.
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I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.
And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.
Had Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars, they should have turko-mongol genes and look, but they surely do not.
Turko-Mongol? Even when they were recognized by their "long red hair"?
Just as Ashkenazi Jews, look.
Khazars are refered as "Slavo-Turkic", though they were not ethnically Turkic (culturally Turkic, maybe)
My point is: Ashkenazis are descended from Sorbians, Polabians, Khazars, Germanic tribes, and Western Jewish influence (from France, Italy, etc). The percentage of Hebrew blood in them is probably quite little.
So what is your point?
Ashkenazi Jews are Jews as much as any other Jew. The lineage of Jews have been kept throughout the ages. Your hypothesizing about things doesn't accomplish much.
We are Jews because our mothers were Jews, this has been the law since the Torah was accepted. We also allow others to convert if they go through a conversion process.
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So what is your point?
Ashkenazi Jews are Jews as much as any other Jew. The lineage of Jews have been kept throughout the ages. Your hypothesizing about things doesn't accomplish much.
We are Jews because our mothers were Jews, this has been the law since the Torah was accepted. We also allow others to convert if they go through a conversion process.
I care little if by religious law Ashkenazis are real Jews or not (they probably are). What I care about is their ethnic makeup, that's what I was talking about.
Probably most Ashkenazis are descended from real Jews, truthfully converted ages ago. It's not that it's really important to me.
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I care little if by religious law Ashkenazis are real Jews or not (they probably are). What I care about is their ethnic makeup, that's what I was talking about.
Probably most Ashkenazis are descended from real Jews, truthfully converted ages ago. It's not that it's really important to me.
This is improbable. As KWRBT pointed out, the the opinion you mentioned is rejected by most of the researchers. Also, take into account that conversion to Judaism is not an easy thing. It takes several years of serious study and practice. Besides, the Jews were persecuted and hated minority, there were very few people who could decide to be a Jew.
Look also here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
The theory that the majority of Ashkenazi Jews are the descendants of the non-Semitic converted Khazars was advocated by various racial theorists and antisemitic sources in the late-19th and 20th centuries, especially following the publication of Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe.[32][33][34] Despite recent genetic evidence to the contrary,[1] and a lack of any real mainstream scholarly support,[35] this belief is still popular among antisemites.[36][37]
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So what is your point?
Ashkenazi Jews are Jews as much as any other Jew. The lineage of Jews have been kept throughout the ages. Your hypothesizing about things doesn't accomplish much.
We are Jews because our mothers were Jews, this has been the law since the Torah was accepted. We also allow others to convert if they go through a conversion process.
I care little if by religious law Ashkenazis are real Jews or not (they probably are). What I care about is their ethnic makeup, that's what I was talking about.
Probably most Ashkenazis are descended from real Jews, truthfully converted ages ago. It's not that it's really important to me.
But (and you say you don't deny this) there were Jews in Rome, Italy, France, Germany, "ashkenaz" (that referred to a specific area in Germany), before the khazar period, and those Jews came from the dispersion in the destruction of the Temple, and after the failed Bar Kochba revolt. And during the Byzantines' persecution of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael. Those were real Jews, who did something called MIGRATION. When a Jew moves from one place to another, he does not cease being a Jew. He does not suddenly become a descendent of slavs because he moved in with them. MOST of the European Jews are descended from these Jewish upstart groups who were insulated, distinct from the surrounding nonJewish populations (there was enmity and cultural disagreements between the two sides as well) and had real talmidei chachamim to lead their communities in maintaining Jewish tradition as a group. Their populations grew, especially at a rapid pace since in the beginning they even customarily had multiple wives (until Rabenu Gershom's ban), and the people passed on Jewish tradition. They didn't desire to become gentiles.
For instance, Rabenu Gershom, Rashi. They were only following a tradition of Torah scholars before them. And the Jewish populace looked to this people for guidance. The leadership of world Jewry shifted from the major Babylonian diaspora yeshivot to these various talmidei chachamim who led these communities, after the Talmud was written and publicized and the Babel Jewish population and scholarship fell apart. Call them "settlers" in the real sense, that Europe is not our land, we were guests there. SOME European Jews are descended from converts who joined up to these real living communities of Jews, etc...
On my mother's side, all of my great-great grandparents were Jewish and had Jewish parents and family that they left behind when they came to America. This is likely a common situation for American Jews whose families immigrated to the US sometime in the 1800's. My great grandparents (the children of that generation) were all practicing Jews in America. People don't just wake up and say 'oh I'm a Jew now even though I'm really slavic.' It comes from something. You're given a bris, bar mitzvah, your parents /grandparents keep shabbat etc.... It's not some big secret.
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DunDan doesn't know what he is talking about here... There has been a lot of genetic proof that Ashkenazic Jews have genetic traces of the Kohen gene which is present in all descendents of the original Israelites.
What this fool is saying is pure antisemitic propaganda along the lines of the "Jews are Khazars" myth...
Antisemitic propaganda made by three Jews named Koestler, Wexler and Kriwakzek? Even when Koestler literally means "The Khazar", you doubt that at least some Jews are descended from Khazaria?
Who cares about genes? It proved to be excrement, that "Kohen gene" is present in non-Jewish populations too and genes change with aging.
BTW, every other linguist in the world thinks Wexler is an idiot. I just learned that he claims that Yiddish is a central asian language rather than German offshoot.... LOL. Try telling that to people who know and speak the languages Yiddish and German.
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BTW, every other linguist in the world thinks Wexler is an idiot. I just learned that he claims that Yiddish is a central asian language rather than German offshoot.... LOL. Try telling that to people who know and speak the languages Yiddish and German.
He says Yiddish is a combination between Slavic and German. Doesn't sounds illogical to me.
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BTW, every other linguist in the world thinks Wexler is an idiot. I just learned that he claims that Yiddish is a central asian language rather than German offshoot.... LOL. Try telling that to people who know and speak the languages Yiddish and German.
He says Yiddish is a combination between Slavic and German. Doesn't sounds illogical to me.
No..... HEBREW? LOL. Every other linguist on the planet thinks he's an idiot. Only the Muslims and Jew-haters pretend that they think he's right. And of course they can't demonstrate anything.
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This guy is a troll.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html?ex=1294894800&en=d17eda8e09ca32a4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
yes some Jews speak yiddish a combination of high German and to much lesser degree slavic languages but so what.Jews took on parts of the language where they lived.People in South america who are pure Spainards do not speak catalonin Spanish.Also yiddish has some Heb in it. it's a language it's not Heb most Jews speak Hebrew well.Heb was considered a HOLY LANGUAGE even in ancient times Jews and Israelites used aramiac for common talk.
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I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.
And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.
Jews didn't have family name in the European fashion until, I think, the 18th century. When they did took family names, they were mostly German, Polish, and Russian names (or Hebrew names that were germanized etc.). I don't know how Kostler means Khazar, I think the word for Khazar is... Khazar. But anyway even if it is, this is a name which was given hundreds of years after there were Khazars. And as you can see for yourself Jewish family names have nothing to do with Khazars.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language
From wikipedia, about Yiddish:
"Yiddish (ייִדיש yidish or אידיש idish, literally "Jewish") is a non-territorial High German language of Jewish origin, spoken throughout the world. Unlike other Germanic languages, Yiddish is written with the Hebrew alphabet as opposed to a Latin alphabet.
The language originated in the Ashkenazi culture that developed from about the 10th century in the Rhineland and then spread to central and eastern Europe and eventually to other continents. In the earliest surviving references to it, the language is called לשון־אַשכּנז (loshn-ashkenaz = "language of Ashkenaz") and טײַטש (taytsh, a variant of tiutsch, the contemporary name for the language otherwise spoken in the region of origin, now called Middle High German; compare the modern New High German Deutsch). In common usage, the language is called מאַמע־לשון (mame-loshn, literally "mother tongue"), distinguishing it from biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, which are collectively termed לשון־קודש (loshn-koydesh, "holy tongue"). The term "Yiddish" did not become the most frequently used designation in the literature of the language until the 18th century. "
"For a significant portion of its history, Yiddish was the primary spoken language of the Ashkenazi Jews and once spanned a broad dialect continuum from Western Yiddish to three major groups within Eastern Yiddish. Eastern and Western Yiddish are most markedly distinguished by the extensive inclusion of words of Slavic origin in the Eastern dialects. While Western Yiddish has few remaining speakers, Eastern dialects remain in wide use."
I should point out that most historians place the "development of Ashkenazi culture in the Rhineland" to much earlier than 10th century. This obviously has to be the case as these groups already were there for several hundred years. But perhaps they mean the development to the extent that the yiddish language developed...
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Also interesting to note that Yiddish developed from multiple dialects of German several hundred years before the advent of 'standard German'.... So there will be differences and nuances involved, but still every linguist knows that yiddish is a Germanic language (even moreso than English, and nobody argues that English is not!), so khazar theories/fantasies need not intrude on the facts and distort science.
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I don't have time to all of this, I never said Koestler proved it with genes. Answer me please, how's that Kostler literally means "The Khazar" and still is not descended from Khazars?
And you change what I said with the quotes. Quote the entire thing, you're confusing people.
And I never said that there weren't Jews in Europe before the Khazar kingdom, period.
Jews didn't have family name in the European fashion until, I think, the 18th century. When they did took family names, they were mostly German, Polish, and Russian names (or Hebrew names that were germanized etc.). I don't know how Kostler means Khazar, I think the word for Khazar is... Khazar. But anyway even if it is, this is a name which was given hundreds of years after there were Khazars. And as you can see for yourself Jewish family names have nothing to do with Khazars.
That is a good point, and very obvious one that I am surprised I missed. What a house of cards this guy has. I would like to know in what language exactly does kostler mean khazar. Certainly not in khazarian lol. But either way you are right, last names are an anachronism when it comes to studying cultural history and the history of the Jews. A very recent occurrance.
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Khazaria will rise again!!!
YAAARGH!!! :laugh:
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Ashkenazi Jews are part Jewish, part European. Dunadan is exaggerating. If you look at the Y chromosome, it is Jewish. There is no doubt. The founding male ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry is Jewish. BTW the Caucasoid race is not purely a European affair. Jews "look White" because Caucasian genetics exist outside of Europe.
But if you look at the MtDNA, many people argue that it may be European. This means that many of the founding mothers of Ashkenazi populations were not born Jewish but converted.
If you believe that these founding mothers converted under Orthodox Judiasm, they are as Jewish as Moses. Judaism isn't supposed to be racist.
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Another thing, at one point in history, it was the father, not the mother, who determined who was a Jew. For karaite Jews, they still go by the father. It's not accurate to say that Judaism was always transmitted by the mother. At one point in history, it was the father. Then the law changed. Orthodox and Conservative Jews go with the new law, and "reform Jews" (atheists really) go by either.
The law of return doesn't consider you a Jew if your father is a Jew. It allows you to return to Israel. But it still considers you a Gentile. You live as a Gentile among Jews. But you can convert if you really want to.
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Another thing, at one point in history, it was the father, not the mother, who determined who was a Jew. For karaite Jews, they still go by the father. It's not accurate to say that Judaism was always transmitted by the mother. At one point in history, it was the father. Then the law changed. Orthodox and Conservative Jews go with the new law, and "reform Jews" (atheists really) go by either.
The law of return doesn't consider you a Jew if your father is a Jew. It allows you to return to Israel. But it still considers you a Gentile. You live as a Gentile among Jews. But you can convert if you really want to.
I do not know what you are talking about here... At what point in history was it like this? Not according to Jewish law which is recorded in the Talmud, and not according to Torah, which as we pointed out before is clear about this.
Please provide some evidence of what you are talking about here. Thank you...
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/202/Q1/
Nathan Silberstein from Los Angeles, CA wrote:
Dear Rabbi,
What is the halachic source of matrilineal descent? Why are we set against patrilineal descent when all of our ancestors in the Torah are referred to as so and so son of so and so, referring only to the father's name?
Dear Nathan Silberstein,
In the time of the Patriarchs it appears that descent followed the father. However, the period of the Patriarchs was before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai. It was only with the revelation on Sinai that the Jewish people received their legal system. Therefore it is impossible to bring Halachic, legal proofs from the Patriarchs. Our source for Halacha is the Written and Oral Torah.
The Mishna in Tractate Kiddushin 66b states that if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is not Jewish.
The Babylonian Talmud, Kiddushin 68b, derives this Halacha from a verse in Deuteronomy 7:1-5, which also contains the prohibition against intermarriage. "When the L-rd your G-d brings you to the land that you will inherit, many nations will fall away before you; the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Prizites, the Hivites and the Jebusites... And you shall not marry with them; do not give your daughters to his sons and do not take his daughters for your sons. For he will turn your son away from me and they will worship other gods...." The Talmud points out that the verse only seems to be concerned with the son of the Israelite woman being turned away, "for he (the gentile)" will turn your son away. It does not seem to be concerned that "she (the gentile) will turn your son away." The implication is that the son of the Jewish woman and gentile man is still considered "your (the Jewish grandfather in this case) son," but in the case of a gentile woman married to a Jewish man, the child is not considered "your son" and therefore there is no concern about his turning away. This follows Rashi and Tosfot Ri Hazaken in their explanation of the Gemara.
Tosfot (ad loc. "Amar krah") offers a number of different methods of derivation from the verse, but agrees with the conclusion. This law is also found in the Mishna in Yevamot (ch. 2, 21a): "He counts as a brother in every respect unless he was the son of a maidservant or of a gentile woman."
This halacha is codified in the Code of Jewish Law, Even HaEzer 8:5, and in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships, 15:4. Maimonides states: "This is the general rule: The status of an offspring from a gentile man or from a gentile woman is the same as his mother's; we disregard the father."
Another source in the Torah is the verse in Leviticus 24:10: "the son of an Israelite woman went out - and he was the son of an Egyptian man." This person is described as being "in the midst of the community of Israel" - in other words, Jewish.
Probably the most explicit verse against patrilineal descent is in the book of Ezra 10:2-3: Some of the Jews who had returned from the exile declare, "We have trespassed against our G-d and have taken foreign wives of the people of the land. Yet, there is hope in Israel concerning this thing. Therefore, let us make a covenant with our G-d to put away all the wives and such as are born to them, according to the counsel of the L-rd and of those who assemble at the commandment of G-d; let it be done according to the law."
Sources are also in Midrash Rabbah, Numbers, 19, and Jerusalem Talmud, Kiddushin 3:12.
Do we ignore the father completely? Certainly not. The father is the one who determines what tribe the child is from. That is: Kohen, Levi, Yisrael. Also, in determining royalty and other leadership roles among the Jewish people we go from father to son.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Israelite_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism#Who_is_a_Jew.3F
I know I read this elsewhere too. If I find the source that i originally saw, I'll post it.
Of course pragmatically, in "real life," if someone is born of a Jewish mother, it doesn't mean they'll organize themselves with the Jewish community. Though it means they could at any point and wouldn't have to convert.
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בס"ד
Another thing, at one point in history, it was the father, not the mother, who determined who was a Jew. For karaite Jews, they still go by the father. It's not accurate to say that Judaism was always transmitted by the mother. At one point in history, it was the father. Then the law changed. Orthodox and Conservative Jews go with the new law, and "reform Jews" (atheists really) go by either.
The law of return doesn't consider you a Jew if your father is a Jew. It allows you to return to Israel. But it still considers you a Gentile. You live as a Gentile among Jews. But you can convert if you really want to.
No, that's only a theory. The closest thing to this is in the days of Avraham, every person who would join his "camp", would turn Jewish (meaning that Hagar also was Jewish). But then again, it wasn't about what you're talking about.
Ka'arites are going after the father since it's a Minhag Kdu'mim (Custom of the ancient), and nothing more. They also bow down on their nees like Minhag Eretz Israel (like the nations who were here until our arrival were worshipping), when they're praying, so?
I live in Israel and I know that what you're saying is false. If none of your grandparents if Jewish, then you're a Gentile only then according to the law of return. But if your dad is Jewish, then you are Jewish.
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בס"ד
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Israelite_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism#Who_is_a_Jew.3F
I know I read this elsewhere too. If I find the source that i originally saw, I'll post it.
Of course pragmatically, in "real life," if someone is born of a Jewish mother, it doesn't mean they'll organize themselves with the Jewish community. Though it means they could at any point and wouldn't have to convert.
Wikipedia is the worst "source" you can ever give, this is one hell of an Atheistic/Agnostic so-called intelletual-loving website, please give normal resources, from Jewish websites.
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בס"ד
Btw EagleEye, are you Jewish?
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Wikipedia links to its sources. Follow their links. Each statement is backed with a source.
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No. I'm not Jewish. Do have some Jewish ancestry (on father's side). I'm atheist. And I'd be atheist if my mother was Jewish. It's an ideological thing.
But you're still my political allies.
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I understand your concern and if I find the source I saw originally, I'll post it to make things interesting.
It really doesn't matter, because everyone knows that today, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism clearly go by the Mother.
If your father is Jewish and you feel left out, you always can convert if you want to. And if your mother is Jewish and you aren't spiritual, certainly Jews aren't like Muslims. They aren't going to kill you for not believing.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+5710-1950.htm
Here is info about the law of return. It agrees with me. If I'm wrong, then the source is also wrong:
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.
It lets people with Jewish dad's in, but still considers them Gentiles if they don't convert.
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בס"ד
Wikipedia links to its sources. Follow their links. Each statement is backed with a source.
You know, it'd be better and more polite if you give them to me, these are you statements you are trying to defend.
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בס"ד
I understand your concern and if I find the source I saw originally, I'll post it to make things interesting.
It really doesn't matter, because everyone knows that today, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism clearly go by the Mother.
If your father is Jewish and you feel left out, you always can convert if you want to. And if your mother is Jewish and you aren't spiritual, certainly Jews aren't like Muslims. They aren't going to kill you for not believing.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+5710-1950.htm
Here is info about the law of return. It agrees with me. If I'm wrong, then the source is also wrong:
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.
It lets people with Jewish dad's in, but still considers them Gentiles if they don't convert.
Too bad the Law was changed. If this really was like this, the "Reformic" and "Conservative" so-called conversion weren't recognized by the State.
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About Koestler there was no DNA testing when he lived.I can point you to hundred page studies if you choose ask me but here it sums it very well in wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews
See also: Y-chromosomal Aaron, Genealogical DNA test, and Matrilineality
Genetic studies indicate various lineages found in modern Jewish populations, however, most of these populations share a lineage in common, traceable to an ancient population that underwent geographic branching and subsequent independent evolutions.[39] While DNA tests have demonstrated inter-marriage in all of the various Jewish ethnic divisions over the last 3,000 years, it was substantially less than in other populations.[40] The findings lend support to traditional Jewish accounts accrediting their founding to exiled Israelite populations, and counters theories that many or most of the world's Jewish populations were founded entirely by local populations that adopted the Jewish faith, devoid of any actual Israelite genetic input.[40][41]
DNA analysis further determined that modern Jews of the priesthood tribe—"Kohanim"—share an ancestor dating back about 3,000 years.[42] This result is consistent for all Jewish populations around the world.[42] The researchers estimated that the most recent common ancestor of modern Kohanim lived between 1000 BCE (roughly the time of the Biblical Exodus) and 586 BCE, when the Babylonians destroyed the First Temple.[43] They found similar results analyzing DNA from Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews.[43] The scientists estimated the date of the original priest based on genetic mutations, which indicated that the priest lived roughly 106 generations ago, between 2,650 and 3,180 years ago depending whether one counts a generation as 25 or 30 years.[43]
Although individual and groups of converts to Judaism have historically been absorbed into contemporary Jewish populations — in the Khazars' case, absorbed into the Ashkenazim — it is unlikely that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern Jewish groups, and much less that they represented their genesis as Jewish communities.[44]
Male lineages: Y chromosomal DNA
A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population", and suggested that "most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora".[39] Researchers expressed surprise at the remarkable genetic uniformity they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become dispersed around the world.[39]
Other Y-chromosome findings show that the world's Jewish communities are closely related to Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians.[45][42] Skorecki and colleague wrote that "the extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin".[42] According to another study of the same year, more than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men (inhabitants of Israel and the territories only) whose DNA was studied inherited their Y-chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. The results are consistent with the Biblical account of Jews and Arabs having a common ancestor. About two-thirds of Israeli Arabs and Arabs in the territories and a similar proportion of Israeli Jews are the descendants of at least three common ancestors who lived in the Middle East in the Neolithic period. However, the Palestinian Arab clade includes two Arab modal haplotypes which are found at only very low frequency among Jews, reflecting divergence and/or large scale admixture from non-local populations to the Palestinians.[46]
Points in which Jewish groups differ is largely in the source and proportion of genetic contribution from host populations.[47][48] The proportion of male indigenous European genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to around 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%."[39] More recent study estimates an even lower European male contribution, and that only 5%–8% of the Ashkenazi gene pool is of European origin.[39]
Female lineages: Mitochondrial DNA
Before 2006, geneticists largely attributed the genesis of most of the world's Jewish populations to founding acts by males who migrated from the Middle East and "by the women from each local population whom they took as wives and converted to Judaism." However, more recent findings of studies of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA, at least in Ashkenazi Jews, has led to a review of this archetype.[49] This research has suggested that, in addition to Israelite male and local female founders, significant female founder ancestry might also derive from the Middle East.[49] In addition, Behar (2006) suggested that the rest of Ashkenazi mtDNA is originated from about 150 women, most of those were probably of Middle Eastern origin.[50]
Research in 2008 found significant founder effects in many non-Asheknazi Jewish populations. In Belmonte, Azerbaijani, Georgian, Bene Israel and Libyan Jewish communities "a single mother was sufficient to explain at least 40% of their present-day mtDNA variation". In addition, "the Cochin and Tunisian Jewish communities show an attenuated pattern with two founding mothers explaining >30% of the variation." In contrast, Bulgarian, Turkish, Moroccan and Ethiopian Jews were heterogeneous with no evidence "for a narrow founder effect or depletion of mtDNA variation attributable to drift". The authors noted that "the first three of these communities were established following the Spanish expulsion and/or received large influxes of individuals from the Iberian Peninsula and high variation presently observed, probably reflects high overall mtDNA diversity among Jews of Spanish descent. Likewise, the mtDNA pool of Ethiopian Jews reflects the rich maternal lineage variety of East Africa." Jewish communities from Iraq, Iran, and Yemen showed a "third and intermediate pattern... consistent with a founding event, but not a narrow one".[51]
In this and other studies Yemenite Jews differ from other Mizrahim, as well as from Ashkenazim, in the proportion of sub-Saharan African gene types which have entered their gene pools.[47] African-specific Hg L(xM,N) lineages were found only in Yemenite and Ethiopian Jewish populati
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I cant believe I have posted the JEWISH response to this twice in this thread and nobody is paying attention. Apparently everyone is on their own little ego trip about this.
SINCE THE TORAH WAS GIVEN AT SINAI the determining factor of the childs status is passed by the Mother. If the mother is Jewish then the children are Jewish, but if only the father was Jewish then the children are not Jewish...
What is so hard to understand about this? There are several sources, both from the WRITTEN LAW, the Chumash, and from the ORAL LAW, the Talmud which prove this. Why do you continue to argue about it?
Either you are a real Jew and believe that Torah, the written and the oral law, were given at Sinai or you are not a real-Jew and are following some other religion which you think is Jewish... There is no question about whether Torah forbids a Jewish man from marrying a non-Jewish woman, because the children will not be Jewish {if from a gentile woman}.
Those who Deny the Oral law are considered heretics from the Torah Jewish perspective.
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I cant believe I have posted the JEWISH response to this twice in this thread and nobody is paying attention. Apparently everyone is on their own little ego trip about this.
SINCE THE TORAH WAS GIVEN AT SINAI the determining factor of the childs status is passed by the Mother. If the mother is Jewish then the children are Jewish, but if only the father was Jewish then the children are not Jewish...
What is so hard to understand about this? There are several sources, both from the WRITTEN LAW, the Chumash, and from the ORAL LAW, the Talmud which prove this. Why do you continue to argue about it?
Either you are a real Jew and believe that Torah, the written and the oral law, were given at Sinai or you are not a real-Jew and are following some other religion which you think is Jewish... There is no question about whether Torah forbids a Jewish man from marrying a non-Jewish woman, because the children will not be Jewish {if from a gentile woman}.
Those who Deny the Oral law are considered heretics from the Torah Jewish perspective.
I do whatever G-D has told me to do, He's the last I'd question. I hope you don't question me (I'm Ron). I just refuted his arguments.
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I'm not convinced by your argument.
I still believe in the days of the Torah, the definition of Jewish was by the father. The definition changed in the Talmud.
BTW, I don't want to be Jewish. You argue about Ego. This isn't jealousy, If I wanted to convert I could, and my father has a Gentile father so if you went by the father, I still wouldn't be a Jew.
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בס"ד
I'm not convinced by your argument.
I still believe in the days of the Torah, the definition of Jewish was by the father. The definition changed in the Talmud.
BTW, I don't want to be Jewish. You argue about Ego. This isn't jealousy, If I wanted to convert I could, and my father has a Gentile father so if you went by the father, I still wouldn't be a Jew.
We don't need to convince to convert G-D forbid, if that's what you meant.
Talmud is Torah, the Oral law (Torah She'Be'Al'Peh). If I understand what you mean with "the days of the Torah", still, no, this is only theory. The Jewishness is based on the mother line, ceou tout, like it or not. You don't give real arguments but only theories who have nothing to do with history or Halacha. You can believe whatever you want by the discussion is whether the Jewishness was always based on the mother line since the Torah was given to Am Israel, and I've given you the answer.
You don't know what Torah is, so no wonder you're "not" jealous.
What do you mean by your last sentence?
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If you read the post I responded to, he commented that people "Have their own egos."
What he's accusing us of, those who argue against his interpretation of history, is Jealousy. And I'm telling him that if I wanted to be accepted as a Jew, I could convert and would be accepted. The reason I don't is because I'm an atheist. But I politically support JTF's aims.
I'm also saying that even if the law changed, because I have a father with a Jewish mother, either way I'm not a Jew.
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בס"ד
If you read the post I responded to, he commented that people "Have their own egos."
What he's accusing us of, those who argue against his interpretation of history, is Jealousy. And I'm telling him that if I wanted to be accepted as a Jew, I could convert and would be accepted. The reason I don't is because I'm an atheist. But I politically support JTF's aims.
I'm also saying that even if the law changed, because I have a father with a Jewish mother, either way I'm not a Jew.
If you studied Torah, and realized that G-D does exist (for your case) you would be jealous (if you're an anti-Semite or anything like that, twisting Torah and selectively so-called relying on Jewish principles like the Christians and Muslims did - Me'Chadshei Dat, etc). But anyway Gentiles can be jealous and they don't have to be Jewish in order to have a place in the world to come, they can just be good people (according to G-D, not according to our limited minds) and keep the Noahide Mitzvoht.
Now, about the law, yes, you are not Jewish, you'd become Jewish only if you'll go convert (if you'll convert), but according to the law of return, you are Jewish, but the law of return or any other law besides Torah law doesn't have the right to define who's Jewish and who isn't.
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The law of return doesn't recognize someone with a Jewish father or grandfather as a Jew, it simply give such person the right to become a naturalized citizen of Israel. The chief rabbinate is supposed to be the decider as to who is a Jew, BUT the bolshevic supreme court is trying to intervene so that for example a person who "converted" to reform Judaism, should be registered as a Jew in Israel.