JTF.ORG Forum
The Worldwide Crisis of Islam => The Truth About Islam => Topic started by: Abdullah on July 09, 2007, 01:02:19 PM
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This subject is one I find to be almost laughable but it is a sticking point for most non-Muslims. You claim we beat our women, force them to wear burkas, and force them into marrige. Al of these things are not true. Now having said that I realise that there are Muslims that may not treat thier wives Islamicly or perfectly and there are people who claim to be implementing Sharia that do not or distort it (taliban) that abuse women. These people are wrong and will be punished. You claim that because there are limits to polygamy in Islam we encourage or practice it, however there are no such limits in the Bible or Torah. There is not even a punishment in Sharia law for a women who does not cover up properly(wear Hijab) it is between Her and Allah. I encourage any questions on the subject and also challenge anyone to bring up a Qur'anic verse oppressive to women. Peace
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I can find more if you want, but here's a start (note, the between verse commentary was written by me):
What Islam says about women.
One particular issue raised in the Quran is lewdness, this is defined in a dictionary as behaviour that is crude and offensive in a sexual way, what I would particularly like to draw reference to here is the different way in which men and women are to be treated if guilty of lewdness.
Surah 4 Ayat 15-16:
“If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some way.
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.”
With women they are to be punished as soon as it is decided that they are guilty whereas with men they are to be given the chance to repent. Also note in western society sexual jokes are a common every day thing, under islamic rule these would fall into the category of lewdness, and would be punishable by death through starvation.
On a more positive note it does say that wives cannot be inherited against their will, nor can their dowers be confiscated unless they are guilty of lewdness
Surah 4 Ayat 19:
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good."
On a more negative note the Quran sanctions the beating of wives
Surah 4 Ayat 34:
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great."
As witnesses one man is worth the same as two women:
Surah 2 Ayat 282:
"O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah. For it is G-d that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things."
According to the Hadith it is perfectly alright to rape women taken as captives during a battle or raid
Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 46, Number 718:
"I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."
“coitus interruptus” of course means having sex but stopping before you ejaculate, the answer from Muhammad saying that only people who are destined to exist will come into existence, as far as I can see is saying that it is fine for the men to have sex with their captives, and not necessary for them to try to not make them pregnant while doing so. If anyone can provide me with an alternative interpretation of this passage please do so.
Also of note is that Muhammad married a 9 year old
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:
Narrated Aisha:
"The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."
Actually there is a disagreement on this matter in the Hadiths
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:
"Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old."
This suggests that the marriage occurred when Aisha was only 6, but that he didn’t have sex with her until she was 9.
In the Quran it is stated that men can have sex with their wives as much as they want and however they want, nothing is said about the wife’s opinion on the matter.
Surah 2 Ayat 223:
"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe."
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All right I will get to ALL of your accusations BUT not all at once. Please try to limit yourself to 1 or 2 questions per post so I can fully respond to each one.First you are compleatly wrong about the meaning of “coitus interruptus”. It means in crude terms "pulling out". It was asked if it was alright to practice it and the Prophet(pbuh) said that it was but that it was not able to guarantee that the women would become pregnant. As for your last statement of a man can have sex whenever and however is just not true. Contrary to Judaism and some Christian beliefs Muslims belive intercourse with ones wife can be done as is wished by the couple within certian limits. As for having sex whenever it is also not true. It is said that sex is forbidden during a womens Menses and under various circumstances. It is also mentioned that one should respect his wifes feelings and wishes.
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Look, that quote from the hadith quite clearly has Mohammed sanctioning rape.
If it is so that Islam gives the wife some rights regarding sexual activity, what does surah 2 Ayat 223 mean?
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ftf is tearing Abdullah a new one... LOL
Abdullah, you picked the wrong guy to argue with about islam... you are in over your head.
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The last guy I argued with gave up saying that he was too busy after about 20 A4 pages worth of debate in which he had not disproved any of my points.
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First I will say that ftf is a Good debator.
I will also say that I too am busy but will try to make time to post fairy regularly. I'm not makeing it up I'm getting married insha'Allah but will make as much time as possible.
That is not the meaning of the Verse at all. It means you can have intercourse with her in whichever position you please (not just from the front). It dosen't mean whenever you want. This verse is not about "rape' but about lawful sexual intercourse, rape is not allowed contrary to the bible and torah.
Peace
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Just look at the beginning Surah 2 Ayat 223:
"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when" followed later by the words "you like"
This seams to be quite blunt, if it doesn't mean it is alright for the amn to have sex wth his wife whenever he wants without his wifes permissions, it is worded in a way that suggests that it means that, surely a book that came from G-d wuld not be so easy to misunderstand in such a radical way. Therefore, either the Quran is not from G-d, or, the Quran says it's alright for men to rape their wives in which case if it is from G-d I would rather goto hell than follow G-d.
If there is any hole in my logic, please tell me.
Also, you said the bible allows rape, please tell me where you're getting this from, if you really can find such a verse which isn't a blatant misinterpretation, I will renounce my religion.
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Do you regard Women and children as plunder?
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Would God's book approve of murder, rape, and slavery?
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Ah, the very common misunderstanding, yes that verse is saying take the women and children, it does not say mistreat them at all, as sex outside of marriage is strictly forbidden by the ten commandments amoung other things, if one was going to rape one of those women one would first have to marry them, if you skip on a couple off shapters you will see a huge list of things that must be done if you wish to marry a cpative, by the nature of this list it seams obvious that the intention is to disuade any such event. (the list starts in chapter 21 verse 10)
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But murdering the men is fine?
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But murdering the men is fine?
I don't know the Jewish perspective on this, so I'll give you the christian one, these were instructions for survivial in a harsh time, in which most peoples killed everyone when they conquered anywhere, killing the men was a precaution against having them organise resistence against you. Note that this is instructions for fighting an enemy that had given you a reason to fight them.
(note, just so you know I'm going to bed very soon, so I probably won't be able to respond to you any more for about 12 hours)
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ftf, my boy I'm starting to develope a niggling respect for you as I watch you carve up this America-hating, Jew-hating animal.
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What is your problem? You are pretty good at insulting and slandering people but you've yet to say ANYTHING worth listening to. I don't know about Judaism but in Islam we are supposed to be civil even with our enemy, Also if we have nothing nice to say to just be quiet. Maybe you should give the Jewish perspective on the verse instead of insulting me.
(Peace be with you ftf)
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What is your problem? You are pretty good at insulting and slandering people but you've yet to say ANYTHING worth listening to. I don't know about Judaism but in Islam we are supposed to be civil even with our enemy, Also if we have nothing nice to say to just be quiet. Maybe you should give the Jewish perspective on the verse instead of insulting me.
Me slander and insult? Name one slander or insult that I have done against you and I will appologise, I gave the christian perspective as I am a christian and don't know what the jewish perspective is for that verse.
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No No No, not you the other guy who keeps calling me an animal. You have shown me full respect.
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What is your problem? You are pretty good at insulting and slandering people but you've yet to say ANYTHING worth listening to. I don't know about Judaism but in Islam we are supposed to be civil even with our enemy, Also if we have nothing nice to say to just be quiet. Maybe you should give the Jewish perspective on the verse instead of insulting me.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
"civil to your enemies"!!!!!
You animals have mutilated,raped, tortured and murdered more prople than smallpox, aids, the black plague, the nazis and communism combined.
Your vile,evil religion and it's followers are a curse on mankind. I live for the day when pigslam is nothing but a distant sorry footnote in history and that ugly black moongod rock at mecca has been blown-up to make way for a piggery.
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Can you back up you statistics, no Because their lies
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Can you back up you statistics, no Because their lies
What would be the point?
All you luatics do is dispute the source. Try watching the evening news.
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Yes they never lie on TV ;D
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newman, making claims that you can't back gets you nowhere.
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Yes they never lie on TV ;D
bingo!
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I have deleted the contents of this post as it contained nothing worth reading ~ftf
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wow another great post by a clearly intelligent and a logical thinker. Please refrain from mindlessly insultig people without proof or reason. Peace
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wow another great post by a clearly intelligent and a logical thinker. Please refrain from mindlessly insultig people without proof or reason. Peace
Re-read his post.
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ANYONE SEE SARAH SHE WENT TO A MADRASSA HER WHOLE LIFE SHE KNOWS THE QURAN AND HADITHS
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Jazak'Allah for deleteing his garbage, i forgot you were a modirator.
It might be better if you keep it up though so people can see what he is basing his opinions on.
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I asked a fair question, ftf. Based on comments made by Chaim himself.If you delete another one without sound reason I'll take it up with the admins.
Again:
What will you circumcise your daughter with, Abdulla?
a: broken glass
b: piece of tin
c: bite it off
ftf...look out if you abuse your authority
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Abdullabitch, on this board you'll get treated like the mooooozie swine that you are by the posters that understand Islime and know how to deal with it's vermin.
Yeah, there's a cornhole here that likes to treat you with respect (when he's not busy saying it's right to convert Jews or telling newman to shut up), but he won't last.
So Abdoomoobitch get used to being treated with the contempt, derision, and hostility you so richly deserve, each and every time I see one of your worthless mooooozie posts.
Around here, YOU'RE the dhimmi biyatch.
You'll get treated with all the respect you deserve and you'll be treated just like you mooooozies like to treat 'infidels'.
It is with the that degree of respect that I say:
[censored] YOU MOO !
DEATH TO ISLAM !!!
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Now I am called a cornhole, and I'm supposably the moderaotr of this board, what a joke, I suppose I'd be told I had deleted another perfect work of art if I removed the above post...
BTW what does cornhole mean?
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ANYONE SEE SARAH SHE WENT TO A MADRASSA HER WHOLE LIFE SHE KNOWS THE QURAN AND HADITHS
;D ;D ;D
Abdullah, you've most probably heard the hadith which says that when a woman rejects her husband at night or refuses him sex even if she is tired, she will be cursed all night by the angels.
Looking back at ftf's quotes it is quite obvious that there is an unfairness lent towards that of women.
Aren't muslims mean't to make Da'wah through their actions, aren't they mean't to represent the Ummah?! If more then 70% of the muslims accross the world force the women to wear Burqas/chadors......then it goes to show that the majority of muslims believe that they are representing the truth of their religion by doing so.
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ANYONE SEE SARAH SHE WENT TO A MADRASSA HER WHOLE LIFE SHE KNOWS THE QURAN AND HADITHS
;D ;D ;D
Abdullah, you've most probably heard the hadith which says that when a woman rejects her husband at night or refuses him sex even if she is tired, she will be cursed all night by the angels.
Looking back at ftf's quotes it is quite obvious that there is an unfairness lent towards that of women.
Aren't muslims mean't to make Da'wah through their actions, aren't they mean't to represent the Ummah?! If more then 70% of the muslims accross the world force the women to wear Burqas/chadors......then it goes to show that the majority of muslims believe that they are representing the truth of their religion by doing so.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Sarah is going to let Abdullah have it. lol
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I have a few questions for Sarah. When did you leave Islam, and Why(specificaly)? Also did you practice Islam while you were a Muslim or were you forced to? I understand if you would rather not answer these questions as they are quite personal.
Yes we are supposed to do Dawah with our actions, even our presence, which is why I do my best to control myself and be polite, even while being insulted. I'm sure that your satitstics on 'Forced burka wearing" are horrably inaccurate and would like to see your "source" for this information. There is no punishment under Sharia for an uncovered women, other than what Allah decides. By Sharia I mean a legitamet hadith or Verse of the Qur'an that would justify it as law. The execution or punishment of women under such groups as the Taliban are wrong. However there are laws in the US and other western counties that Also punish people that are unproperly covered. It is just that the western definition has changed drasticaly. If you look at pictures of american beachgoers in the 1800's or even the early 1900's they are almost completely covered. You of course know that Burkas are entirely optional and all that is needed for proper Hijab is to cover your body exept your face and hands. My fiancee wears Khimar now and once were Married (insha'Allah) WANTS to wear Nikab. It is completely her decision, but one that I am happy with. If Allah blesses us with a daughter I would only ask her to wear Hijab. I think you are confuseing voulentary following of Allah's command with opression. As for the Brothers that DO force their wives or daughters to wear burkas, it is clearly un-Islamic. Maybe they are ignorant of what they are doing and you can rest assured, if I meet a Brother who does act like that(which I haven't) I will take him aside and do daw'ah to him.
As for anything to do with female genital mutalation,it is obviously wrong and I find it disgusting that people joke about such things. I would again like to say that for every lie you tell or every person that you slander you will be held accountable.
Peace
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AHHHH! The bomb chucker's back!
How many women have you raped this week? (Not counting your own family)
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C'mon abdul, where'd you get to?
Bang your head too hard on the floor of the pigsty when you prayed this morning?
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If you want to talk rape lets look at the statistics
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes)
It speaks for itself
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If you want to talk rape lets look at the statistics
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes)
It speaks for itself
Don't play games bone-head. Lookat per head of population and by ethnicity of rapists in respect to their % of population. Muslims take the chequered flag by a country mile.
Now....How many girls/boys did you rape this week not counting family members?
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Mohamheads only miracle:
Not making 9 year old Ayisha bleed when he molested her.
Pedo-Mo and his moooozie ho.
Hey Abdouchmoo, did you know a wonderful Jewish woman killed the pedo-prophet ?
That's right, Mooswine, she poisoned your fake 'prophet'. He suffered for a few years and finally croaked.
Guess what you filthy moo ?
I just spoke to Allah.
You know what he said ?
I'll quote the pagan moon dog:
"Once I get up from this puddle of camel semen, I'm going to kick back with a cold beer and a bacon sandwich and watch the Israelis [censored] those assbackwards mooozies again"
DEATH TO ISLAM !!!
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Mohamheads only miracle:
Not making 9 year old Ayisha bleed when he molested her.
Pedo-Mo and his moooozie ho.
Hey Abdouchmoo, did you know a wonderful Jewish woman killed the pedo-prophet ?
That's right, Mooswine, she poisoned your fake 'prophet'. He suffered for a few years and finally croaked.
Guess what you filthy moo ?
I just spoke to Allah.
You know what he said ?
I'll quote the pagan moon dog:
"Once I get up from this puddle of camel semen, I'm going to kick back with a cold beer and a bacon sandwich and watch the Israelis [censored] those assbackwards mooozies again"
DEATH TO ISLAM !!!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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wow more mindless personal attacks....
I'll just ingore those ;D
But could you back up the stats about the ethnicity of the rapists. Also there are not many Muslims in America so could you please explain why it has the highest rapes total and is #9 per capita?
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wow more mindless personal attacks....
I'll just ingore those ;D
But could you back up the stats about the ethnicity of the rapists. Also there are not many Muslims in America so could you please explain why it has the highest rapes total and is #9 per capita?
Do your own googling. Start with the rape statistics in Sweden. It's something like 60% by muslims when they're less than 10% population.
We want to know your personal tally. How many goats, pigs, camels,apes, holes in the wall, boys, girls or old ladies have YOU raped this week not including your own family?
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OK you want to know what I've raped.
Nothing
Not a person
Not an animal
Not a hole in the wall
Ever
I've NEVER raped anything in my life and NEVER will
I would appriciate if you stopped asking me.
Peace
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OK you want to know what I've raped.
Nothing
Not a person
Not an animal
Not a hole in the wall
Ever
I've NEVER raped anything in my life and NEVER will
I would appriciate if you stopped asking me.
Peace
We should call you Cleopatra....Queen of DENIAL.
Now answer my other question. What will you use to circumcise your daughter?
Tin lid, Broken bottle, Angle grinder, tin snips or sand paper?
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True fact:
There's a cross eyed Moozie with a rusty can lid on every corner in Cairo.
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True fact:
There's a cross eyed Moozie with a rusty can lid on every corner in Cairo.
With a needle and fishing line in his back pocket....what animals!