JTF.ORG Forum
The Worldwide Crisis of Islam => The Truth About Islam => Topic started by: ZachorHamitzvos on March 03, 2009, 11:20:29 PM
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Shalom,
After scanning many posts on this board, I've reached the conclusion that many of you fall into the Islamophobic category; you are scared of Muslims, and therefore, you are taught to hate them. This is a problem that can only be remedied with dialogue. I've met so many Muslims over the years, and I find them to be great, nice people. Your thoughts?
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Your Islamophobe argument won't work here. We're all too aware of Islamic terrorism, and the abuses of women and children.
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How many of the 1 1/2 billion muslims have you met and how many of them have been great, nice people that you can vouch for? If you have met one million, simple arithmetic tells me that you've met about 0.07%.
By the way, I am not afraid of muslims. I simply despise the ideology of islam that they follow which demands the behavior that you see them engaging in all over the world. If you think that appending the suffix "phobia" to a word will cause people on this forum to be overcome by guilt and capitulate to your non-arguments, you are grossly mistaken.
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I am afraid of them because I don't know which ones are the ones that would actually fly a plane into a skyscraper, behead Americans, strap a bomb onto their own child, or fuk a camel in the ass.
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a phobia is an irrational fear. In light of Muslims cutting off the heads of unbelievers and teaming up with nazi skinheads and black panthers its no longer irrational to fear Islam.
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a phobia is an irrational fear. In light of Muslims cutting off the heads of unbelievers and teaming up with nazi skinheads and black panthers its no longer irrational to fear Islam.
Good call. I have Islamilepsy.
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LOL Islamophobia... :laugh:
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Sometimes I am really scared if I am in a room full of muslims. For examble at school. I try to stand 1 meter away from muslims. If someone come closer to me I make the sign of the cross. I am afraid that someone blow himself. Muslim girls disgust me. They smell like they have never seen a shower. :yuck:
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I am afraid of them because I don't know which ones are the ones that would actually fly a plane into a skyscraper, behead Americans, strap a bomb onto their own child, or fuk a camel in the donkey.
LOL, one of the best quotes I have heard in a while, and very true too.
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I am afraid of them because I don't know which ones are the ones that would actually fly a plane into a skyscraper, behead Americans, strap a bomb onto their own child, or fuk a camel in the donkey.
LOL, one of the best quotes I have heard in a while, and very true too.
:::D yeah
I prefere dead muslims ;)
The only good muslim is a dead muslim!!
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The reason why most westerners are not as untrustful of Muslims is because they never have to live under the Muslim rule....
Oh, and "Islamophobia" excuse is a very poor way of defending it. You have to come up with something better than that....
Why don't you go live in a muslim-dominated country and see for yourself how non-muslims are treated and then come back and say the same thing?
Well, if Islamophobia is the best excuse you can come up with, perhaps you should start doing some serious reading (based on facts, not fiction) on muslims in Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, so-called Palestine, Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia, Chechnya, Cypres..just to name a few.....
In conclusion, I believe that you never lived among them where they rule, so you don't understand how the real Islam works. Any religious following, which straight out says that you should conquer, steal, kill, rape, torture, mistreat (all listed in Quran) is a religion of Satan following and should be isolated from civilized world. Let them have their own satanic kingdoms, but do not let them out of that satanic kingdoms........electric fence or the most isolated island in the world possible comes into my mind as a solution.
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Even being in Israel and constantly around them in malls, on busses, and in the streets is no cake-walk. When I was in Yeshivah there, we were robbed by them, too. If they are not killing you, they are stealing from you. Slimy, disgusting pieces of sht.
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You are plain and simple nuts ZachorHamitzvos. :o
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BEWARE:
ISLAM ONLY HAS AN ENTRANCE!
IT TAKES 5 MINUTES TO ENTER ISLAM.
ONCE CONVERTED TO ISLAM:
ISLAM HAS NO EXIT!
ONLY DEATH.
And they want YOU to join them!
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BEWARE:
ISLAM ONLY HAS AN ENTRANCE!
IT TAKES 5 MINUTES TO ENTER ISLAM.
ONCE CONVERTED TO ISLAM:
ISLAM HAS NO EXIT!
ONLY DEATH.
And they want YOU to join them!
To be fair, what is the punishment of apostasy in Judaism? Deuteronomy 13:6-13:10.
"thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."
We should not accuse a religion for a law that exists within our own faith as well.
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BEWARE:
ISLAM ONLY HAS AN ENTRANCE!
IT TAKES 5 MINUTES TO ENTER ISLAM.
ONCE CONVERTED TO ISLAM:
ISLAM HAS NO EXIT!
ONLY DEATH.
And they want YOU to join them!
To be fair, what is the punishment of apostasy in Judaism? Deuteronomy 13:6-13:10.
"thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy G-d, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."
We should not accuse a religion for a law that exists within our own faith as well.
Moshe, there are two problems with your quote:
1. The Bible talks here about a false prophet, not about a Jew that leaves Judaism.
SORRY, I slipped in the line of my Bible.
2. Torah law is only the law of the land of Israel. It does not apply to the countries of the gentiles. If it would be otherwise I wouldn't be with JTF.
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BEWARE:
ISLAM ONLY HAS AN ENTRANCE!
IT TAKES 5 MINUTES TO ENTER ISLAM.
ONCE CONVERTED TO ISLAM:
ISLAM HAS NO EXIT!
ONLY DEATH.
And they want YOU to join them!
To be fair, what is the punishment of apostasy in Judaism? Deuteronomy 13:6-13:10.
"thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy G-d, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."
We should not accuse a religion for a law that exists within our own faith as well.
Moshe, there are two problems with your quote:
1. The Bible talks here about a false prophet, not about a Jew that leaves Judaism.
2. Torah law is only the law of the land of Israel. It does not apply to the countries of the gentiles. If it would be otherwise I wouldn't be with JTF.
Hm, I see. Well what would the punishment be for a Jew who becomes Christian in Israel (if Israel were ruled by Torah Law, God willing)
Also, I would assume that Islam too has to rule by the law of the land. Can you provide proof otherwise?
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Moshe, I think about Halakhic things, I am the wrong partner of discussion. You should ask the Jews here.
Personally I think Jews have the right to enforce Torah law in their land of Israel with all consequences.
If somebody is not happy with it, he has the possibility to live somewhere else.
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Moshe, I think about Halakhic things, I am the wrong partner of discussion. You should ask the Jews here.
Personally I think Jews have the right to enforce Torah law in their land of Israel with all consequences.
If somebody is not happy with it, he has the possibility to live somewhere else.
No, I fully agree with Jewish law. My issue was that in a Jewish state, the law for apostasy is death. In an Islamic state, the punishment for apostasy is death. I personally do not see much wrong in the punishment (from a Jewish perspective). I'm saying it is hypocritical to insult their religion for their punishment for apostasy, while not condemning Judaism's punishment for apostasy. I'm just trying to be open-minded. It would be good if we at least had a few Moslems on this forum to at least give us their defense. Maybe it would help strengthen our own beliefs, ay? We could see if they are really what we think of them. I personally only have met one Moslem.
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Moshe, I think about Halakhic things, I am the wrong partner of discussion. You should ask the Jews here.
Personally I think Jews have the right to enforce Torah law in their land of Israel with all consequences.
If somebody is not happy with it, he has the possibility to live somewhere else.
No, I fully agree with Jewish law. My issue was that in a Jewish state, the law for apostasy is death. In an Islamic state, the punishment for apostasy is death. I personally do not see much wrong in the punishment (from a Jewish perspective). I'm saying it is hypocritical to insult their religion for their punishment for apostasy, while not condemning Judaism's punishment for apostasy. I'm just trying to be open-minded. It would be good if we at least had a few Moslems on this forum to at least give us their defense. Maybe it would help strengthen our own beliefs, ay? We could see if they are really what we think of them. I personally only have met one Moslem.
But our good Chaim said, that he will leave the Jews who didn't practice Judaism alone in their private life.
I have never heard, that a Jew who left Judaism is murdered or a Rabbi has told other Jews to kill him.
In fact there are hundreds of thousands of Jews in the USA, who are Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims etc.
Like I said, I have never heard, that something happened to them because of their conversion.
I think they are avoided by their fellow Jews, but nothing more.
Do you have any example that Jews killed an apostate? Perhaps they prayed for his death, but they never took action.
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But our good Chaim said, that he will leave the Jews who didn't practice Judaism alone in their private life.
I have never heard, that a Jew who left Judaism is murdered or a Rabbi has told other Jews to kill him.
In fact there are hundreds of thousands of Jews in the USA, who are Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims etc.
Like I said, I have never heard, that something happened to them because of their conversion.
I think they are avoided by their fellow Jews, but nothing more.
Do you have any example that Jews killed an apostate? Perhaps they prayed for his death, but they never took action.
Yea, you're right that Jews who have left Judaism have not been killed. And Chaim is right to leave alone Jews who do not practice. But not practicing is different from becoming Christian, Muslim, etc. The punishment for that is DEATH. Why should we debate the laws that Hashem has blessed us with? In a JEWISH STATE, this would be the case. But Jews, as do Muslims, have to follow the law of the land. In America, we cannot kill someone for apostasy. In a Jewish state, they would be stoned.
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I didn't debate any law of the Torah.
But there is a great difference between Islam and Judaism.
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This is talking about idoltary worshiping Ba'Al or Dagan
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (New International Version)
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Is this carriede out in Israel but it is carried out numerous muslim countries read the newspapers
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Is this carriede out in Israel but it is carried out numerous muslim countries read the newspapers
Hmm...I don't think that most Muslim country's today do have a punishment for apostasy. However, we are not debating Jews vs Muslims. It is about Islam and Judaism. The religions, not the people. And this SHOULD be carried out, but sadly, Israel has submitted to secular law.
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Is this carriede out in Israel but it is carried out numerous muslim countries read the newspapers
Hmm...I don't think that most Muslim country's today do have a punishment for apostasy. However, we are not debating Jews vs Muslims. It is about Islam and Judaism. The religions, not the people. And this SHOULD be carried out, but sadly, Israel has submitted to secular law.
Like most countries with reformation Israel has a moderate mix of Religious law and secular law .And like i said that was talking about Idoltary not Christianity.Due to the fact at the time it was written there was no Christianity or Islam
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According to Judaism, only people who violate the Torah laws against idolatry within the Land of Israel would be punished, which is clearly shown in the Bible that the majority of Christians claim to believe in. It does not apply to any other land. In Islam, however, all non-Muslims everywhere are targeted for conversion, and all people in the world are seen as either Muslims or infidels, which deserve subjugation or death if they don't convert to Islam. Their goal is to set up a caliphate which will rule over a world that is completely Muslim. There is no concept like this in Judaism. Jews leave other nations alone. So much for the moral equivalence argument.
Right, but until the Islamic state is established, I heard Moslems should follow the laws of the land they live in. Plus, in a Jewish state, Christians who believe in the trinity or have any statues of Jesus or Mary, or anything like that, would be punished, ay?
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According to Judaism, only people who violate the Torah laws against idolatry within the Land of Israel would be punished, which is clearly shown in the Bible that the majority of Christians claim to believe in. It does not apply to any other land. In Islam, however, all non-Muslims everywhere are targeted for conversion, and all people in the world are seen as either Muslims or infidels, which deserve subjugation or death if they don't convert to Islam. Their goal is to set up a caliphate which will rule over a world that is completely Muslim. There is no concept like this in Judaism. Jews leave other nations alone. So much for the moral equivalence argument.
Right, but until the Islamic state is established, I heard Moslems should follow the laws of the land they live in. Plus, in a Jewish state, Christians who believe in the trinity or have any statues of Jesus or Mary, or anything like that, would be punished, ay?
This is a straw man since this will never happen
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Sorry Moshe, I slipped in the line of my bible. The lines with the false prophet are before this. I apologize.
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Sorry Moshe, I slipped in the line of my bible. The lines with the false prophet are before this. I apologize.
No problem :)
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Here it is in context
The Adam Clarke Commentary
Chapter 13
Of false prophets and their lying signs, 1-6. Of those who endeavour to entice and seduce people to idolatry, 7-8. The punishment of such, 9-11. Of cities perverted from the pure worship of G-d, 12-14. How that city is to be treated, 15. All the spoil of it to be destroyed, 16. Promises to them who obey these directions, 17,18.
Notes on Chapter 13
Verse 1. If there arise among you a prophet
Any pretending to have a Divine influence, so as to be able perfectly to direct others in the way of salvation; or a dreamer of dreams-one who pretends that some deity has spoken to him in the night-season; and giveth thee a sign, oth, what appears to be a miraculous proof of his mission; or a wonder, mopheth, some type or representation of what he wishes to bring you over to: as some have pretended to have received a consecrated image from heaven; hence the origin of the Palladium, Numa's Shields, and many of the deities among the Hindoos. But here the word seems to mean some portentous sign, such as an eclipse, which he who knew when it would take place might predict to the people who knew nothing of the matter, and thereby accredit his pretensions.
Verse 3. The Lord your G-d proveth you
G-d permits such impostors to arise to try the faith of his followers, and to put their religious experience to the test; for he who experimentally knows G-d cannot be drawn away after idols. He who has no experimental knowledge of G-d, may believe any thing. Experience of the truths contained in the word of G-d can alone preserve any man from Deism, or a false religion. They who have not this are a prey to the pretended prophet, and to the dreamer of dreams.
Verse 6. If thy brother-or thy son
The teacher of idolatry was to be put to death; and so strict was this order that a man must neither spare nor conceal his brother, son, daughter, wife, nor friend, because this was the highest offence that could be committed against G-d, and the most destructive to society; hence the severest laws were enacted against it.
Verse 13. Children of Belial
from bal, not, and yaal, profit;-Sept. ανδρεςπαρανομοι, lawless men;-persons good for nothing to themselves or others, and capable of nothing but mischief.
Verse 15. Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants
If one city were permitted to practise idolatry, the evil would soon spread, therefore the contagion must be destroyed in its birth.
Verse 17. And there shall cleave naught of the cursed thing
As G-d did not permit them to take the spoils of these idolatrous cities, they could be under no temptation to make war upon them. It could only be done through a merely religious motive, in obedience to the command of G-d, as they could have no profit by the subversion of such places. How few religious wars would there ever have been in the world had they been regulated by this principle: "Thou shalt neither extend thy territory, nor take any spoils!"
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=de&chapter=13&verse=6#De13_6
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According to Judaism, only people who violate the Torah laws against idolatry within the Land of Israel would be punished, which is clearly shown in the Bible that the majority of Christians claim to believe in. It does not apply to any other land. In Islam, however, all non-Muslims everywhere are targeted for conversion, and all people in the world are seen as either Muslims or infidels, which deserve subjugation or death if they don't convert to Islam. Their goal is to set up a caliphate which will rule over a world that is completely Muslim. There is no concept like this in Judaism. Jews leave other nations alone. So much for the moral equivalence argument.
Right, but until the Islamic state is established, I heard Moslems should follow the laws of the land they live in. Plus, in a Jewish state, Christians who believe in the trinity or have any statues of Jesus or Mary, or anything like that, would be punished, ay?
Actually, Muslims use the legal system to their advantage to gain legal protection while plotting against their host nation, and then when the time is right, they take over. This is what happened in Lebanon, which used to be a majority Christian country but now it is Muslim. Jews don't do this to non-Jewish nations, and there is a difference between running things according to the Jewish religion in a Jewish country and trying to expand it worldwide like the Muslims do. I could personally care less if Muslims want to subject their own people to Sharia law in Africa or in the Middle East (except in Israel). But when they start trying to impose it in Israel, Europe, America, etc., that's where the problem is.
It seems like you're arguing that Muslims can't be blamed for believing in world conquest because they're not there yet, but Jews can be blamed for having a Torah government their own country even though they're not there yet.
This are basically my thoughts too.
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According to Judaism, only people who violate the Torah laws against idolatry within the Land of Israel would be punished, which is clearly shown in the Bible that the majority of Christians claim to believe in. It does not apply to any other land. In Islam, however, all non-Muslims everywhere are targeted for conversion, and all people in the world are seen as either Muslims or infidels, which deserve subjugation or death if they don't convert to Islam. Their goal is to set up a caliphate which will rule over a world that is completely Muslim. There is no concept like this in Judaism. Jews leave other nations alone. So much for the moral equivalence argument.
Right, but until the Islamic state is established, I heard Moslems should follow the laws of the land they live in. Plus, in a Jewish state, Christians who believe in the trinity or have any statues of Jesus or Mary, or anything like that, would be punished, ay?
Actually, Muslims use the legal system to their advantage to gain legal protection while plotting against their host nation, and then when the time is right, they take over. This is what happened in Lebanon, which used to be a majority Christian country but now it is Muslim. Jews don't do this to non-Jewish nations, and there is a difference between running things according to the Jewish religion in a Jewish country and trying to expand it worldwide like the Muslims do. I could personally care less if Muslims want to subject their own people to Sharia law in Africa or in the Middle East (except in Israel). But when they start trying to impose it in Israel, Europe, America, etc., that's where the problem is.
It seems like you're arguing that Muslims can't be blamed for believing in world conquest because they're not there yet, but Jews can be blamed for having a Torah government their own country even though they're not there yet.
This are basically my thoughts too.
Same here too.
ps. I have always found that the whole idea of 70 virgins waiting for Muslim in their so-called heaven, or as us non-muslims call it Hell, to be one of the most ridiculous things ever. By the way, what do muslim women get when they get to the muslim heaven?