JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on November 10, 2007, 09:45:25 PM
-
Question: Is so-called "date rape" (which IMHO is a mega-stupid, PC buzzword anyway--rape is rape) as terrible as "conventional" rape (i.e. a stranger attacking a random woman)?
I say yes.
Most rapes involve, I believe, somebody the victim knows to some degree--a friend, coworker, family member, dating partner, or boyfriend. It isn't just random. A woman is taken advantage of by somebody she trusts, or at least does not suspect, and often quite violently. Yeah, from time to time we hear of cases where a woman changes her mind about having sex halfway through sex or decides after the fact that consensual sex was really "rape", but these are a tiny minority of cases. Most so-called "date rape" is every bit as savage as your stereotypical masked predator who plucks a girl out of a parking lot at night.
I believe the courts must punish date- or acquaintance-rape every bit as ferociously as anonymous rape.
Chaimfan
-
I don't know how anyone who has not experienced such a thing could possibly know which type of rape is worse.
-
The term "Date rape" was invented by scumbag ACLU lawyers to use as an angle to get rapists off by introducing reasonable doubt.
-
rape is rape
-
Rape is rape however the picture is not always that clear. There are quite a few people sitting in prison who ended up there due to next day remorse. What was all well and fine in the heat of passion sometimes is not all that acceptable the next morning. This crime need full investigation and should never be called date rape. In todays liberated society there are many pitfalls that could either let a rapist go free or have an innocent person pay for a crime they did not commit. People who commit this sort of crime in most cases have done it more than one time. As I said good investigation into the lifestyles of people involved will in most cases get to the truth.
-
As I said good investigation into the lifestyles of people involved will in most cases get to the truth.
What if a predator specifically targets a known promiscuous girl so that her word won't be believed?
The Duke lacrosse case notwithstanding, lying about rape is extroardinarily rare. I think society should err on the side of believing the victim.
-
Rape IS Rape. There is no Distinction!
-
i'm sad to say but it depends on the circumstances..but we have to define what we mean by date rape versus other rape.
I know that Shomer Negia is an Orthodox Jewish principle, so if all Jews were to act on that principle, any rape would be rape and there would be no gray areas like we have in today's society..since technically sex can only take place between a husband and wife and not pre-martially or extra-maritally (Gd forbid).
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
-
It depends on the circumstances although I think stranger rapes are generally worse than "date-rapes". First of all, if a woman is on a date with someone, chances are that she is at least somewhat interested in that person, not necessarily for sex, but at least interested in some way. This is opposed to a woman being raped by a stranger that she doesn't know, and has no interest in. Stranger or forced rapes are generally more violent than date rapes. Some stranger rapes, the woman is assaulted with a weapon, or is intimidated by a group of men with the rapist, which is a much more fearful and violent rape. Date-rape can be just as violent, but generally it is not as violent as stranger rapes, especially when weapons are used. Women who have been date-raped, have at least done something that led to the rape. But for trusting a man into her house, but for getting drunk with him, but for trusting him, but for acting flirtatious, but for teasing him, but for many other things. That's not to say that she deserves it or "brought it on herself" G-d forbid, but her actions lead more to the rape than in most cases of stranger rape like if a girl gets nabbed off the street and raped.
In some "date-rape" cases, the actions that a woman does that leads to the rape are even partially culpable, like getting really wasted with a guy she just met, doing drugs with someone, allowing him to go back to your house, going out with a man very late at night, showing up to a man's hotel room at 2 am dressed scantily (like the date rape case of Mike Tyson).
I think in general, stranger rapes are more terrifying and permanently damaging to the rape victim than date-rapes are, and I think rape victims themselves would agree with this.
I would be willing to bet that if you could get a woman comfortable enough to talk about her "date-rape" she would probably say that it wasn't as bad as if she was raped by a complete stranger in a violent and threatening fashion, and that she thinks that stranger rapes are worse.
Much of the time with stranger rapes, the woman is literally fearful for her life, she doens't know if the man is planning on killing her since stranger rapes are so often associated with murder. On the other hand, date-rapes are not as frequently associated with murder, and although the women might be fearful for their safety or harm, they usually do not have an apprehension of death that is associated with rapes by a stranger.
Of course rape is rape, but that doesn't mean that all rapes are equally as damaging or terrifying to the victims.
-
Obviously a rape that you are conscious during is worse. Fighting off a rapist is pure torture and can go on for hours.
-
We must be very carefull about making quallifications about scanty dress or promiscuous behaviour on the part of the victim lest we give credence to the muSSlim-nazi view of women/rape.
Having said that, "day after remourse" is a sad but true fact. It is rare, but also rare is a rapist being able to rape an adult female and leave NO bruises, marks or any sign of trauma.
I think purgery laws should be more strongly enforced.
-
We must be very carefull about making quallifications about scanty dress or promiscuous behaviour on the part of the victim lest we give credence to the muSSlim-nazi view of women/rape.
Having said that, "day after remourse" is a sad but true fact. It is rare, but also rare is a rapist being able to rape an adult female and leave NO bruises, marks or any sign of trauma.
I think purgery laws should be more strongly enforced.
Yes, of course we need to be careful with blaming women for rapes. Islam blames women for rape when they just dress in a provocative way. I don't blame women for rape, but sometimes their behavior can put them in the situation where a rape is more likely to happen. That's just a fact. When murders and kidnappings and rapes happen, much of the time the person was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's not to say that he was to blame, but he engaged in an activity that has a much higher chance of the risk actually taking place.
Clearly when a women gets hammered with a man she doesn't know well and allows him to come to her house late at night, she is putting herself at a greater risk of a "date-rape" happening. This is a clearly distinguishable view from the view that Muslims have who say that women just leaving the house, or wearing something other than a burka, completely excuses a man from raping her.
In the former view, the man is no less culpable for taking advantage of her, regardless of the circumstances, but in the latter view, the man is not culpable at all because it is 100% the woman's fault for seducing him and he is not responsible for his impulses.
There is a very clear line drawn between these two positions and no one with a half-functioning brain should see one supporting the other.
-
I picked yes. Rape is rape no matter if its done by your boyfriend, partner, husband or stranger.
And Yacov they are men that get raped, its not just a female thing.
-
I picked yes. Rape is rape no matter if its done by your boyfriend, partner, husband or stranger.
And Yacov they are men that get raped, its not just a female thing.
There is a name for a man who gets raped by a woman...."Lucky!"
-
I picked yes. Rape is rape no matter if its done by your boyfriend, partner, husband or stranger.
And Yacov they are men that get raped, its not just a female thing.
There is a name for a man who gets raped by a woman...."Lucky!"
Its was more to do with straight men getting raped by men.
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon, or the girl might be too scared to resist or fight back. That doesn't make it any less of a rape. If she says no and it's nonconsensual, then it's still rape! Make no mistake about that!
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.
COMPLETELY untrue?
A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.
I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.
The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.
COMPLETELY untrue?
A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.
I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.
The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.
I think it happens but less than 1% of the time.
When you start adding up factors such as.........
1/ The victim knew her attacker
2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.
3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack
4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising
5/ We KNOW that "day after remourse" and false rape accusations occur.
I think the presumption of innocence makes sense.
I'm NOT excusing rape under ANY circumstances but in the above scenario I'd be reluctent to send anyone to the prison showers on nothing more than ONE persons word over another.
-
They're both unacceptable. By comparing them, it gives the impression that one should be considered better than the other.
-
I still say--the "gray" areas where it was not true rape are extremely few. It should be a matter of common sense to take the victim's word at value generally speaking.
-
I still say--the "gray" areas where it was not true rape are extremely few. It should be a matter of common sense to take the victim's word at value generally speaking.
It's not really common sense to take the victim's word at face value. There are many false rape allegations. When I was 13, a girl told her parents that I had raped her at a party because the girl was late coming home from a party.
One of my best friends was investigating for raping a schvartza because he lived on the route from the school and her house and she was late coming home one day from school, so the girl told her dad that she was sexually assaulted by my friend in order to avoid punishment from her father.
There are countless reasons why not to take a rape victim's word at face value.
-
I still say--the "gray" areas where it was not true rape are extremely few. It should be a matter of common sense to take the victim's word at value generally speaking.
The victims word alone WITHOUT any coroberating evidence is insufficient for proof "beyond reasonable doubt".
Remember that rape within marriage is now a crime (it wasn't 25 years ago). Imagine an embittered wife being able to secure a rape conviction against her husband with nothing more than her say-so. NO bumps, bruises or trauma. This could become very dangerous.
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.
COMPLETELY untrue?
A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.
I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.
The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.
Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?
So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!
Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!
-
It's not really common sense to take the victim's word at face value. There are many false rape allegations. When I was 13, a girl told her parents that I had raped her at a party because the girl was late coming home from a party.
One of my best friends was investigating for raping a schvartza because he lived on the route from the school and her house and she was late coming home one day from school, so the girl told her dad that she was sexually assaulted by my friend in order to avoid punishment from her father.
There are countless reasons why not to take a rape victim's word at face value.
[/quote]
The crazy people who do that make things more difficult for actual rape victims.
-
I don't think you can really compare date rape to stranger rape when it comes to which one is worse. There are different issues attached to both of them. Most rapes are acquaintance rapes, the victims knows her attacker. It's very rare for a stranger rape to occur. However, I dated a girl who was a victim of a stranger rape. Someone who is the victim of an acquaintance rape may feel very uncomfortable being alone with someone or trusting someone in a future relationship. With my previous gf, she didn't have any problems trusting me or being alone or getting intimate with me. However, she felt very uncomfortable being in very public or crowded places. She feels extremely uncomfortable riding on the Railroad and will never ride on a subway again.
Rape is an absolutely horrific and traumatic crime, not only for the victim, but for everyone who is close to and who cares about the victim. There are different issues surrounding both acquaintance rape and stranger rape. But there is no way that you can classify one as being worse than the other. It would be false and also demeaning to victims on both ends to make such a claim that one is worse than the other.
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.
COMPLETELY untrue?
A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.
I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.
The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.
Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?
So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!
Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!
That's not the scenario we are talking about.
In her case, there would be bruises from the dragging, drag/scuff marks in the basement as well as traces of body fluid, hair etc on the basement floor. Secondly, it is NOT common to have consentual sex in a basement, so the victim would be more believable despite a lack of apparent injury.
The scenario of which we speak is this:
1/ The victim knew her attacker
2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.
3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack
4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.
COMPLETELY untrue?
A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.
I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.
The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.
Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?
So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!
Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!
That's not the scenario we are talking about.
In her case, there would be bruises from the dragging, drag/scuff marks in the basement as well as traces of body fluid, hair etc on the basement floor. Secondly, it is NOT common to have consentual sex in a basement, so the victim would be more believable despite a lack of apparent injury.
The scenario of which we speak is this:
1/ The victim knew her attacker
2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.
3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack
4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising
I understand what you're saying. But even in the cases of acquantance rape, it's possible that there may be no signs of force, trauma, or bruising, but if a girl says "no" and the guy still forces himself on her against her will (or vica versa), then it is still just as much of a rape then if there were physical signs of a struggle.
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.
COMPLETELY untrue?
A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.
I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.
The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.
Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?
So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!
Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!
That's not the scenario we are talking about.
In her case, there would be bruises from the dragging, drag/scuff marks in the basement as well as traces of body fluid, hair etc on the basement floor. Secondly, it is NOT common to have consentual sex in a basement, so the victim would be more believable despite a lack of apparent injury.
The scenario of which we speak is this:
1/ The victim knew her attacker
2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.
3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack
4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising
I understand what you're saying. But even in the cases of acquantance rape, it's possible that there may be no signs of force, trauma, or bruising, but if a girl says "no" and the guy still forces himself on her against her will (or vica versa), then it is still just as much of a rape then if there were physical signs of a struggle.
I totally agree. The attacker has 100% culpability.
I was just saying that it's going to be harder to convict him and with good reason.
-
If there are no signs of struggle (or drugging), it ain't rape.
That's COMPLETELY untrue! There are many times when there are no signs of a struggle. The guy could be using a weapon.
COMPLETELY untrue?
A man is going to have a REALLY hard time engaging in sex and holding a weapon threateningly at the same time.
I don't know how much you know about men and sex, but when a man is having sex, he is incapable of doing or thinking about much else.
The scenario that you speak of only happens in Fantasyland.
Umm, Fantasyland? I dated a girl who was attacked in the basement of her apartment building with a knife. He dragged her to an isolated place in the basement, held a knife up to her face the entire time, and managed to penetrate her mouth, vagina, and anus! Because he was holding a knife up to her face and neck the entire time, of course she wasn't phyically resisting. So does this make this any less of an authentic rape because of this?
So this "Fantasyland" you talk about was extremely REAL!
Remember, rape is an act of violence, power, and control!
That's not the scenario we are talking about.
In her case, there would be bruises from the dragging, drag/scuff marks in the basement as well as traces of body fluid, hair etc on the basement floor. Secondly, it is NOT common to have consentual sex in a basement, so the victim would be more believable despite a lack of apparent injury.
The scenario of which we speak is this:
1/ The victim knew her attacker
2/ The victim had some form of friendship/relationship with the attacker.
3/ The victim volluntarily had physical contact with the attacker prior to the attack
4/ NO signs of force, trauma or bruising
I understand what you're saying. But even in the cases of acquantance rape, it's possible that there may be no signs of force, trauma, or bruising, but if a girl says "no" and the guy still forces himself on her against her will (or vica versa), then it is still just as much of a rape then if there were physical signs of a struggle.
I totally agree. The attacker has 100% culpability.
I was just saying that it's going to be harder to convict him and with good reason.
Yes, that I agree with. It's still just as much of a rape. But at trial, it will be much harder to sustain a convition.
-
i'm sad to say but it depends on the circumstances..but we have to define what we mean by date rape versus other rape.
I know that Shomer Negia is an Orthodox Jewish principle, so if all Jews were to act on that principle, any rape would be rape and there would be no gray areas like we have in today's society..since technically sex can only take place between a husband and wife and not pre-martially or extra-maritally (Gd forbid).
Do all orthodox Jews follow shomer negia?
-
It depends on the circumstances although I think stranger rapes are generally worse than "date-rapes". First of all, if a woman is on a date with someone, chances are that she is at least somewhat interested in that person, not necessarily for sex, but at least interested in some way. This is opposed to a woman being raped by a stranger that she doesn't know, and has no interest in. Stranger or forced rapes are generally more violent than date rapes. Some stranger rapes, the woman is assaulted with a weapon, or is intimidated by a group of men with the rapist, which is a much more fearful and violent rape. Date-rape can be just as violent, but generally it is not as violent as stranger rapes, especially when weapons are used. Women who have been date-raped, have at least done something that led to the rape. But for trusting a man into her house, but for getting drunk with him, but for trusting him, but for acting flirtatious, but for teasing him, but for many other things. That's not to say that she deserves it or "brought it on herself" G-d forbid, but her actions lead more to the rape than in most cases of stranger rape like if a girl gets nabbed off the street and raped.
How the woman acts is not the issue, the problem is with the male. The male intends to slip something into a woman's drink to make her pass out. The male intends to take advantage of the woman after she passes out from too much drinking.
-
For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. :-\
-
For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. :-\
Yeah, and it is too bad he has to pass it on to others.
-
For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. :-\
Yeah, and it is too bad he has to pass it on to others.
Too many men think its a right. Thats where these males are never men, just brainless boys.
A man knows how to treat a woman, and rape is totally unforgivable no matter what.
Afterall G-d did give you a hand for a reason.
-
For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. :-\
Maybe they want a traditional protestant woman of the 1940s who just lays there.
-
For any man who has too have a half dead woman to have sex with has massive problems. :-\
Maybe they want a traditional protestant woman of the 1940s who just lays there.
Wheres the fun in that ;D
-
I picked yes. Rape is rape no matter if its done by your boyfriend, partner, husband or stranger.
And Yacov they are men that get raped, its not just a female thing.
There is a name for a man who gets raped by a woman...."Lucky!"
not if he was a virgin and wanted to save it for someone special.
-
i'm sad to say but it depends on the circumstances..but we have to define what we mean by date rape versus other rape.
I know that Shomer Negia is an Orthodox Jewish principle, so if all Jews were to act on that principle, any rape would be rape and there would be no gray areas like we have in today's society..since technically sex can only take place between a husband and wife and not pre-martially or extra-maritally (Gd forbid).
Do all orthodox Jews follow shomer negia?
No...
-
I picked yes. Rape is rape no matter if its done by your boyfriend, partner, husband or stranger.
And Yacov they are men that get raped, its not just a female thing.
There is a name for a man who gets raped by a woman...."Lucky!"
not if he was a virgin and wanted to save it for someone special.
;D
-
i'm sad to say but it depends on the circumstances..but we have to define what we mean by date rape versus other rape.
I know that Shomer Negia is an Orthodox Jewish principle, so if all Jews were to act on that principle, any rape would be rape and there would be no gray areas like we have in today's society..since technically sex can only take place between a husband and wife and not pre-martially or extra-maritally (Gd forbid).
Do all orthodox Jews follow shomer negia?
No...
Thanks.