JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: q_q_ on November 25, 2007, 06:44:46 AM
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Here is a shocking video on secular zionism.
http://www.shofar.net/site/emedia.asp?id=962&Category=3&Prourl=mms://il12.cast-tv.com/list_vod_shofar/Languages\english\Herzel-eng.wmv
careful though, it may bring a tear or two to your eyes.
It should load eventually
if it starts off full screen, you may want to press ESCAPE to make it small screen, then when it starts, make it full screen. Or just wait, have faith, it will load! It is a shocking and very sad video.
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Herzl thought in his early life that converting to Christianety will be the sulotion for "The Jewish Problem". After "Dreyfus affair" he changed his mind and came to the idea of a "Jewish state" or "State for the Jews".
Objecting religiouse regime is very legitimate in my opinion, especiely in the 20th century.
This movie is very tendentious in my opinion.
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They also give some pictures of so-called Herzl handwrites, but, it's in Hebrew...Herzl didn't know to write in Hebrew. This movie is full of lies, period.
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Dexter is right.
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all the facts in that video are quotes with sources.
you cannot say they are "lies" if they just use a translation into hebrew.
so, they were not his handwritten notes. That is a minor thing if his handwritten notes really do say that, just in a language readers will not understand.
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all the facts in that video are quotes with sources.
you cannot say they are "lies" if they just use a translation into hebrew.
so, they were not his handwritten notes. That is a minor thing if his handwritten notes really do say that, just in a language readers will not understand.
Milions of bilions of Nazi articals use "sources". This movie is completly false, it was prooven in Hebrew but I can't find a lot about it in English.
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all the facts in that video are quotes with sources.
you cannot say they are "lies" if they just use a translation into hebrew.
so, they were not his handwritten notes. That is a minor thing if his handwritten notes really do say that, just in a language readers will not understand.
Milions of bilions of Nazi articals use "sources". This movie is completly false, it was prooven in Hebrew but I can't find a lot about it in English.
You suggest that sources are irrelevant since nazi articles use sources. Giving you license now to ignore the sources quoted in the video.
You can now tell academics, that sources count for nothing, because nazi articles also use sources, and they are lies.
You should know that it is the way sources are used that make or break the integrity of an article or documentary.
A straight out quote from a man`s biography is a good source to know about a man`s views. Some of this is quite well known anyway. Especially the bit that you refer to.
It is quite well known amongst well informed religious zionists that Herzl - a secular zionist - wanted jews to convert to christianity - as a solution to anti-semitism. And he described it with glee. That was the source that you questioned. And it is correct.
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I already said that herzl suggested that Jews will convert to Christianety:
A. Nothing is antisimetic in that suggestion.
B. Herzl changed his mind later.
Herzl also wanted that the Jewish will be in Uganda, that we would speak German etc', this movie is nonsense and is telling a lot of lies.
Lets start shortly:
*The quote of Mendelson "Be Jewish in your house and a Man outside it" don't mean that Jews aren't human, that's nonsense and just bull$hit. It means that you should'nt have a definion as "Jewish" so you could be "fine" with the gentile, be just "a man".
*The quote of Josef Haim Brenner is so called antisimetic qoute, nonsense, he is talking about the disporal Jew, the wimp that fear from the gentiles so much. JDL was org. that created to defend that disporal Jews that Josef Haim Brenner talked about.
I am not going to watch the movie again beacuse it's very long. But just note how 99% is out of contenst.
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I already said that herzl suggested that Jews will convert to Christianety:
A. Nothing is antisimetic in that suggestion.
nothing is anti-semitic / self hating, about a jew whose goal is that all jews become christian.
Nothing is anti-semitic about a jew who says that a simple christian is greater than a jewish rabbi?
Nothing is anti-semitic about a man who thinks that only as christians can jews be free and proud.
He hated judaism. He hated the religious jew.
B. Herzl changed his mind later.
Herzl also wanted that the Jewish will be in Uganda, that we would speak German etc', this movie is nonsense and is telling a lot of lies.
<sarcasm>
Oh, if he wanted a jewish state in Uganda, that proves he is no anti-semite.
</sarcasm>
Lets start shortly:
*The quote of Mendelson "Be Jewish in your house and a Man outside it" don't mean that Jews aren't human, that's nonsense and just bull$hit. It means that you should'nt have a definion as "Jewish" so you could be "fine" with the gentile, be just "a man".
funny to see you defend that one. That is not what it means.
I live in Britain, a variation of that was passed down, one of my great grandfathers. It was to be a Jew in the home, and a gentleman outside.
There is a bit of a bad implication there. But I sympathise with that statement. Even nowadays I hear Orthodox jews say they do not want to wear a tallit outdoors (e.g. on shabbat when no eruv), because it flaunts their jewishness in the non-jews faces. I would hope that jews nowadays know that anti-semites will hate us regardless. But I understand this concern, as a mechanism against anti-semitism.
This is not a major point in the video.
Notice that the next person or the one after that, they interview , covesr Jabotinsky. about 26min in.
And he says that Jews who refuse to cut their beards should not be allowed to vote.
Don`t defend that, please. I know you don`t have a beard, but have some self respect. Sorry if I am too tough, I know you are only 11 ;-)
*The quote of Josef Haim Brenner is so called antisimetic qoute, nonsense, he is talking about the disporal Jew, the wimp that fear from the gentiles so much. JDL was org. that created to defend that disporal Jews that Josef Haim Brenner talked about.
I am not going to watch the movie again beacuse it's very long. But just note how 99% is out of contenst.
The JDL empowered diaspora jews to fight anti-semites.
This anti-semitic slime is saying that diaspora jews are subhuman. And that they deserve anti-semitism.
You cannot in your right mind, compare that to the JDL. Which taught Jewish Pride. (regardless of where the jew lived).
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I saw the video before, it is true, im sorry for the state worshippers who might be offended, but the truth is the truth.
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I saw the video before, it is true, im sorry for the state worshippers who might be offended, but the truth is the truth.
That suggests a bit, that those who are not "state worshippers" will not be suprised.
I saw this video this year or last year. After I knew of the Rabin conspiracy, and prob after Amona. I was far from a "state worshipper". My image of the state of israel had already been shattered and reformed. There isn`t much ill behaviour that could suprise me, and most news I see is not news, it is just recycled stuff. But I found this video was very moving, and in parts, quite shocking.
I did have a high opinion of Jabotinsky, but I was almost as stunned as the head of betar when he was given a quote from jabotinsky. Many people on this forum will find this video of interest. It is pretty much 100% quoting sources, naming sources.
It is a very upsetting video, perhaps as upsetting as schindler`s list, but I don`t like that film, I do not want to compare this to that. And this is a far more practical film since it applies to today.
Don`t worry though, it is not as shattering as the Amona footage. But it is very sad. And it is very important to know about.
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(http://The JDL empowered diaspora jews to fight anti-semites.
This anti-semitic slime is saying that diaspora jews are subhuman. And that they deserve anti-semitism.
You cannot in your right mind, compare that to the JDL. Which taught Jewish Pride. (regardless of where the jew lived).)
In the wimpy behavior won't you expect that the strong will take advantage on tham ?
As I said, almost everything is out of contest, what Jabutinsky said wasn't. But, in case you didn't note, you can't think he wanted that in the future because he never said it again. Especiely when he came up whit his new Zionism.
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q_q, Rav Amnon Yitzhak wants to make Jews return to the Torah, in order to do that he destroys their previous belief in Secular Zionism. Sadly he uses out of context quotes or opinions that people changed to do it.
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this video is not really an Amnon Yitzchak video. Fine, it is on his website, but for a start.. In all the other videos, he talks . In this one, he is not even in it. I don`t think he had anything to do with this one.
I do not like his stuff, I have seen many of his other videos and I can see he uses very clever to and fro philosophical arguments to confuse people into agreeing with him. But this video is nothing like the others.
Really... I have viewed many of his other videos, and seen his thing. This video a totally different thing. The only thing it has to do with Amnon Yitzchak is that it is on his website.
This video does not cut interviews or quotes like he does. Infact, mentioning amnon yitzchak just confuses the issue.
This video is a fantastic documentary
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this video is not really an Amnon Yitzchak video. Fine, it is on his website, but for a start.. In all the other videos, he talks . In this one, he is not even in it. I don`t think he had anything to do with this one.
I do not like his stuff, I have seen many of his other videos and I can see he uses very clever to and fro philosophical arguments to confuse people into agreeing with him. But this video is nothing like the others.
Really... I have viewed many of his other videos, and seen his thing. This video a totally different thing. The only thing it has to do with Amnon Yitzchak is that it is on his website.
This video does not cut interviews or quotes like he does. Infact, mentioning amnon yitzchak just confuses the issue.
This video is a fantastic documentary
It's his, he and his men made it for him.
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this video is not really an Amnon Yitzchak video. Fine, it is on his website, but for a start.. In all the other videos, he talks . In this one, he is not even in it. I don`t think he had anything to do with this one.
I do not like his stuff, I have seen many of his other videos and I can see he uses very clever to and fro philosophical arguments to confuse people into agreeing with him. But this video is nothing like the others.
Really... I have viewed many of his other videos, and seen his thing. This video a totally different thing. The only thing it has to do with Amnon Yitzchak is that it is on his website.
This video does not cut interviews or quotes like he does. Infact, mentioning amnon yitzchak just confuses the issue.
This video is a fantastic documentary
It's his, he and his men made it for him.
so amnon yitzchak is a big fat liar, and anybody that makes a video that is OKed by him, is a big fat liar too.
Let`s be a bit more sophisticated, ok?
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this video is not really an Amnon Yitzchak video. Fine, it is on his website, but for a start.. In all the other videos, he talks . In this one, he is not even in it. I don`t think he had anything to do with this one.
I do not like his stuff, I have seen many of his other videos and I can see he uses very clever to and fro philosophical arguments to confuse people into agreeing with him. But this video is nothing like the others.
Really... I have viewed many of his other videos, and seen his thing. This video a totally different thing. The only thing it has to do with Amnon Yitzchak is that it is on his website.
This video does not cut interviews or quotes like he does. Infact, mentioning amnon yitzchak just confuses the issue.
This video is a fantastic documentary
It's his, he and his men made it for him.
so amnon yitzchak is a big fat liar, and anybody that makes a video that is OKed by him, is a big fat liar too.
Let`s be a bit more sophisticated, ok?
Amnon Yitzhack is a liar, he lies avout many things. But hey, what do you know about him ? He's famouse here in Israel about his lies.
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Amnon Yitzhack is a liar, he lies avout many things. But hey, what do you know about him ? He's famouse here in Israel about his lies.
His only "part" in this video is having it on his website. Despite your claims that his guys made it for him (YOUR LIES!!) I even have my doubts that his guys made it for him, the host of this video does not wear a kippa.
The israeli press lied about Kahane too, israelis thought he was a maniac. (they did not have youtube or the israeli equivalent in those days)
Amnon yitzchak`s style can be criticised, but just saying "he is a liar", and that any video on his site is lies, regardless of how well it documents itself with sources, and how well it uses sources, is ridiculous.
You started off more honestly, dealing with the issues from the small amount of the video that you watched. I responded. You left it. Then you tried excuses to get out of it, but you made the "mistake" of stating your criticism of the content. You left my response, unable to deal with it.
So you try another excuse. Sources, you say, are irrelevant, because anybody can quote sources, any nazi site. So, I responded to that one.
Why though, don`t you go back to where you stated your criticisms, and look at my response, and try to respond?
It should be very easy for you. You say that the video has already been proven to be LIES !
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Amnon Yitzhack is a liar, he lies avout many things. But hey, what do you know about him ? He's famouse here in Israel about his lies.
His only "part" in this video is having it on his website. Despite your claims that his guys made it for him (YOUR LIES!!) I even have my doubts that his guys made it for him, the host of this video does not wear a kippa.
The israeli press lied about Kahane too, israelis thought he was a maniac. (they did not have youtube or the israeli equivalent in those days)
Amnon yitzchak`s style can be criticised, but just saying "he is a liar", and that any video on his site is lies, regardless of how well it documents itself with sources, and how well it uses sources, is ridiculous.
You started off more honestly, dealing with the issues from the small amount of the video that you watched. I responded. You left it. Then you tried excuses to get out of it, but you made the "mistake" of stating your criticism of the content. You left my response, unable to deal with it.
So you try another excuse. Sources, you say, are irrelevant, because anybody can quote sources, any nazi site. So, I responded to that one.
Why though, don`t you go back to where you stated your criticisms, and look at my response, and try to respond?
It should be very easy for you. You say that the video has already been proven to be LIES !
Hahaha!!! THIS VIDEO WAS CREATED BY HIS ORGANIZION!!!!!!!! IT IS A FACT!! He himself spreaded this movie in diffrent places in Israel under his name. He is anti-Zionist just as Neturei Karta.
We don't know about his lies because the media tells us, we listen his lies alone. Not only the seculer are against him because he is a liar, also the National Religious are. They think he is a true Jewish Mission that tells a lot of lies and he is also anti-Zionist.
Ever read the books that he is using as sources ? I don't think so. Tomarrow or very soon I'll search about this so-called sources. But I never heard of most of tham and probably they are all ficatiob.
Tell me, are you working for him ?
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We don't know about his lies because the media tells us, we listen his lies alone. Not only the seculer are against him because he is a liar, also the National Religious are. They think he is a true Jewish Mission that tells a lot of lies and he is also anti-Zionist.
Ever read the books that he is using as sources ? I don't think so. Tomarrow or very soon I'll search about this so-called sources. But I never heard of most of tham and probably they are all ficatiob.
Tell me, are you working for him ?
I do not have anything to do with Amnon Yitzchak. I said my criticism of Amnon Yitzchak already, and that the criticism does not apply to any part of this video.
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sure dexter, Rav Amnon is a lier ::) . You have no proof, and are just name calling. Also we shoulsnt forget that you dont even claim to belive in Judaism so your opinion of the great Rav is irrelevent.
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sure dexter, Rav Amnon is a lier ::) . You have no proof, and are just name calling. Also we shoulsnt forget that you dont even claim to belive in Judaism so your opinion of the great Rav is irrelevent.
Yes, Amnon Yitzhak is a liar, and the fact I don't belief in Judaism have nothing to do with it. I will give you some examples of his lies:
*He claimed that the fact that coal was found in Antarctica proves that the ancient coal origin isn't of old forests. When people said that in the past Antartica was in the the equator, means that there was trees on it, he said it's a lie and that most scientist don't believe it. Well, that is a lie.
*That movie
Amnon Yitzhak said in the past that
"There are two big criminals in the history of the Jewish people, Herzl and Hitler."
"The Holocaust was a punishment because of the enlightenment age" (Even tough almost a half of the Jews were Hassidic)
*In 1997 he opened a "Attraction and Humor evening", there he did "the ascent of the soul" ritual for the solider that were killed in 1996.
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All lies. YES the holocaust was becuase of the Haskalah movement, and becuase of the assimilation that started in Germany. (and the reform movements etc.).
About the soldiers- he did address that in one of his videos, and it was all lies from the media. The media allways makes up stories and lies against him and unfortunatly many fools like you belive them.
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All lies. YES the holocaust was becuase of the Haskalah movement, and becuase of the assimilation that started in Germany. (and the reform movements etc.).
About the soldiers- he did address that in one of his videos, and it was all lies from the media. The media allways makes up stories and lies against him and unfortunatly many fools like you belive them.
What lies ? non of this was lies.
You claim to know why the holocaust happend ? You aren't G-d and you can't know what he did.
And no, about the solider it isn't lies. The family itself respind to it. And, you are the fool over here because you actually defend him.
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sure dexter, Rav Amnon is a lier ::) . You have no proof, and are just name calling. Also we shoulsnt forget that you dont even claim to belive in Judaism so your opinion of the great Rav is irrelevent.
I didn`t really want to turn this into a discussion of amnon yitzchak, as the expense of the contents of the video.
Dexter was going to deal with the contents of the video..
Obviously one can provide good evidence that "Amnon Yitzchak is a liar". The shows, that make up all but one of his videos, involve him sitting in front of people, making a presentation. When he does "science" ones, and convinces people, I would expect him to not have good science. He is a non scientist talking to non scientists, about science. And when he gets into his philosophical to and fro discussion, it is the same flawed concept.
And at one point in one of his videos, I really felt very sick, and could not believe he had said what he said.
On the other hand, there are wonderful , incredible scenes, where a woman comes to him crying that she cannot conceive, and the arab women around her are having many children. And rav amnon yitzchak , told her to perform the mitzva of covering her hair, and blessed her, and a year later (9 months + 3 months), she conceived. And he is at the bris-circumcision.
If he is a "great rav" , maybe in that he makes many people religious, and he puts on a good show, and at best, you might think he is a miracle worker! But what sefarim(torah books) has he written?
I really did not want to divert this thread into a discussion all about amnon yitzchak , since as I have argued, he is not relevant to the content of this video. Dexter was going to comment on the contents of the video. He had started , and I responded to that, and he gave up and tried to look for excuses. Don`t give him more excuses.
Proving that amnon yitzchak is a liar or is not a liar, is irrelevant. I really do not want to repeat why. I already explained it to Dexter and he agreed to deal with the content. Then you come along and bring it up.
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Obviously one can provide good evidence that "Amnon Yitzchak is a liar". The shows, that make up all but one of his videos, involve him sitting in front of people, making a presentation. When he does "science" ones, and convinces people, I would expect him to not have good science. He is a non scientist talking to non scientists, about science. And when he gets into his philosophical to and fro discussion, it is the same flawed concept.
You don't understand, he claims that what he said is what scientists actually think, and that it's facts. But it's not true mostly. He also sometimes brings ferry tells as the stroy that Einstein became religiouse (and he didn't came with this idea first) etc'.
On the other hand, there are wonderful , incredible scenes, where a woman comes to him crying that she cannot conceive, and the arab women around her are having many children. And rav amnon yitzchak , told her to perform the mitzva of covering her hair, and blessed her, and a year later (9 months + 3 months), she conceived. And he is at the bris-circumcision.
Drama is one way he is using to convince people become religious.
And because you now claim I don't continue responding it (and I've already explained why..), let's continue:
*Yes, Herzl wanted European state for the Jews. With Secular - Gentile culture, e.g. Operah. Herzl wasn't perfect, but because of him and his ideas we have a state and Amnon have the actual right to spread his stupid movie.
*The claim that Zionism=Antisemitism/Nazism has no need to be answered, people who believe this are probably mentally retards or just blinde.
*Zionists also wanted religious Jews. There is no separation of Religion and State in Israel, so the hoster's claim that they actually lied to the religious Jews is completely fails.
*The quote of Chaim Wisman (?) is true, nothing to defend on him.
*There is no source for Ben Groin's quote, just a name of a book with no page number.
*Yes, Kastner was a Nazi
*The professor actually is lying. The Charedi Jews were the people whom were against the state of Israel, with time they became more and more for the state and not against it until some fanatics that are a piece that left of the past remained. The state of Israel wasn't against Charedi Judaism, in the past it was against Judaism in general but the state gave up many many times to the Charedi Jews in their demands.
*Zehava Gal'on ? Yeah, she is the woman you should ask about religious Jews :D
*No source for Ben Gurion's quote, again..
*As I said, Herzl wanted that in the past..but he changed his mind.
*OK, not the professor speaks how the Jews are less religious and blah blah, even though in this years many many many people become religious, at least of what I heard.
*What about "Tal Law" ??
I think that's it. There very few qoutes, and much less are actually true.
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You claim to know why the holocaust happend ? You aren't G-d and you can't know what he did.
And no, about the solider it isn't lies. The family itself respind to it. And, you are the fool over here because you actually defend him.
DEXTER is correct here. You don't know why the Holocaust happened and it probably wasn't because of the Haskalah as more Jews were religious at that point in time than are now. We will never understand the reason for the Holocaust.
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You claim to know why the holocaust happend ? You aren't G-d and you can't know what he did.
And no, about the solider it isn't lies. The family itself respind to it. And, you are the fool over here because you actually defend him.
DEXTER is correct here. You don't know why the Holocaust happened and it probably wasn't because of the Haskalah as more Jews were religious at that point in time than are now. Part of the reason is probably what R' Kahane thought the primary reason was but we will never understand the reason for the Holocaust.
So you throw away every answer given by Rabbis including Rav Kahane? They also gave answers of why the Religious communities were also destroyed. Simply saying, ooh we cant understand etc. is wronge and actually makes us have more tragedies by not learning from earlier ones. Rambam says this in Hilhot Tishuva I belive, and one who doesnt reflect etc. during times of troubles is cruel.
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I dont understand why people, expecially the media in Israel allways flipps out when a Rav talks about the Holocaust and some of the reasons of why it happened (some of the Jews faults of why G-d caused it).
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Any Rabbi who says that he knows and understands why the Holocaust happened I will not listen and not consider a Rabbi since it is impossible to understand such things as the Mishnah says it is impossible to understand why G-d punishes the righteous and rewards the wicked at times. Moses himself didn't understand this, so if a Rabbi says he understands the reason for the Holocaust than he is saying that he is greater than Moses and contradicts the Mishnah and is therefore not a real Rabbi in my opinion. R' Kahane himself never said he understood why the Holocaust happened, he simply stated a possibility that he though may be a big part of the reason why it occurred (that the Jews were not trying to go back to Israel) and I agree with him. But if someone says they know the reason for the Holocaust but don't understand it than this is allowed and they can all have their own opinions as long as they don't claim to understand it but only G-d can tell you the real reason. I hear that the Rav's son said the primary reason was what the Rav said. So I simply don't agree with these Rabbi's opinion that the reason was because of people being not religious, since most Jews were religious in Europe at that time so the minority should not cause the majority to suffer such a horrible fate when in the past such huge punishments were only given in the Tannach for the sins of the majority. R' Kahane didn't agree with them either. I agree with R' Kahane in general on this, but I am not sure if what he said was the major reason, I think it was part of the reason.
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I also have a problem with the trend to lie in order to make people religious. This is a horrible thing and hurts us tremendously. I don't know anything about R' Amnon Yitzchak but am speaking in general.
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I also have a problem with the trend to lie in order to make people religious. This is a horrible thing and hurts us tremendously. I don't know anything about R' Amnon Yitzchak but am speaking in general.
yes, of course. I am sure 99% of religious people agree.
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Dexter, this could end up very messy because you did not include any quotes in that post.. Anyhow, why reinvent the wheel and repeat ourselves. You already posted quotes and responses. And I responded. In the first page of this thread.
why not just reply to that and continue from there. That is better than starting again.
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Dexter, this could end up very messy because you did not include any quotes in that post.. Anyhow, why reinvent the wheel and repeat ourselves. You already posted quotes and responses. And I responded. In the first page of this thread.
why not just reply to that and continue from there. That is better than starting again.
I'm reffering to each qoute acorrding the time it's apear in the movie.
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Rav Binyamin Kahane wrote a pamphlet on the Holocaust. Its called "Understanding The Holocaust", I reread it every Yom Hashoah.
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Rav Binyamin Kahane wrote a pamphlet on the Holocaust. Its called "Understanding The Holocaust", I reread it every Yom Hashoah.
Yet, you can only guess why it happend, and guessing is not very nice to do in a "dirty" issue like the holocaust.
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Rav Binyamin Kahane wrote a pamphlet on the Holocaust. Its called "Understanding The Holocaust", I reread it every Yom Hashoah.
I'm aware of this, although I've never read it. What does it say? If the title is an accurate description I don't think he was correct in doing this as R' Meir Kahane would have never done such a thing as Dexter is right.
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Dexter, this could end up very messy because you did not include any quotes in that post.. Anyhow, why reinvent the wheel and repeat ourselves. You already posted quotes and responses. And I responded. In the first page of this thread.
why not just reply to that and continue from there. That is better than starting again.
I'm reffering to each qoute acorrding the time it's apear in the movie.
that would be very good, but I don`t want to burden you.
when I tried to play that video, it did not have a pause option!! I had to download it , about 170MB, with orbit downloader, convert it with SUPER by eRightSoft, to a format compatible with all players, it was then 400MB, then I opened it in "windows media player classic". And I could pause it. But even then, typing all the quotes takes a while.
There is also an interview with the guy from the jewish agency, the guy who now wears a kippa. I don`t expect you to quote the whole thing. But take it into account. And there is the jewish agency memo, and the article in that newspaper. (the newspaper may be relevant since all media in israel is state controlled). If you skip these things, I just want to make clear they exist.
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Dexter, this could end up very messy because you did not include any quotes in that post.. Anyhow, why reinvent the wheel and repeat ourselves. You already posted quotes and responses. And I responded. In the first page of this thread.
why not just reply to that and continue from there. That is better than starting again.
I'm reffering to each qoute acorrding the time it's apear in the movie.
that would be very good, but I don`t want to burden you.
when I tried to play that video, it did not have a pause option!! I had to download it , about 170MB, with orbit downloader, convert it with SUPER by eRightSoft, to a format compatible with all players, it was then 400MB, then I opened it in "windows media player classic". And I could pause it. But even then, typing all the quotes takes a while.
There is also an interview with the guy from the jewish agency, the guy who now wears a kippa. I don`t expect you to quote the whole thing. But take it into account. And there is the jewish agency memo, and the article in that newspaper. (the newspaper may be relevant since all media in israel is state controlled). If you skip these things, I just want to make clear they exist.
When I tried to pause the video started from the beggining. That guy of the Jewish agency is antisimetic and anti-Zionist today, he even don't believe in Judaism, what makes him look wierd because of his kippah.
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When I tried to pause the video started from the beggining. That guy of the Jewish agency is antisimetic and anti-Zionist today, he even don't believe in Judaism, what makes him look wierd because of his kippah.
his name is Yigal Ben David of the jewish agency. I do not have access to whatever hebrew site you say makes this claim.
Anti zionism is a general term. There is religious, and secular, and branches of each. And it is another subject.
Here is where you put in the quotes, and I responded. And you were unable to respond.
I already said that herzl suggested that Jews will convert to Christianety:
A. Nothing is antisimetic in that suggestion.
nothing is anti-semitic / self hating, about a jew whose goal is that all jews become christian.
Nothing is anti-semitic about a jew who says that a simple christian is greater than a jewish rabbi?
Nothing is anti-semitic about a man who thinks that only as christians can jews be free and proud.
He hated judaism. He hated the religious jew.
B. Herzl changed his mind later.
Herzl also wanted that the Jewish will be in Uganda, that we would speak German etc', this movie is nonsense and is telling a lot of lies.
<sarcasm>
Oh, if he wanted a jewish state in Uganda, that proves he is no anti-semite.
</sarcasm>
Lets start shortly:
*The quote of Mendelson "Be Jewish in your house and a Man outside it" don't mean that Jews aren't human, that's nonsense and just bull$hit. It means that you should'nt have a definion as "Jewish" so you could be "fine" with the gentile, be just "a man".
funny to see you defend that one. That is not what it means.
I live in Britain, a variation of that was passed down, one of my great grandfathers. It was to be a Jew in the home, and a gentleman outside.
There is a bit of a bad implication there. But I sympathise with that statement. Even nowadays I hear Orthodox jews say they do not want to wear a tallit outdoors (e.g. on shabbat when no eruv), because it flaunts their jewishness in the non-jews faces. I would hope that jews nowadays know that anti-semites will hate us regardless. But I understand this concern, as a mechanism against anti-semitism.
This is not a major point in the video.
Notice that the next person or the one after that, they interview , covesr Jabotinsky. about 26min in.
And he says that Jews who refuse to cut their beards should not be allowed to vote.
Don`t defend that, please. I know you don`t have a beard, but have some self respect. Sorry if I am too tough, I know you are only 11 ;-)
*The quote of Josef Haim Brenner is so called antisimetic qoute, nonsense, he is talking about the disporal Jew, the wimp that fear from the gentiles so much. JDL was org. that created to defend that disporal Jews that Josef Haim Brenner talked about.
I am not going to watch the movie again beacuse it's very long. But just note how 99% is out of contenst.
The JDL empowered diaspora jews to fight anti-semites.
This anti-semitic slime is saying that diaspora jews are subhuman. And that they deserve anti-semitism.
You cannot in your right mind, compare that to the JDL. Which taught Jewish Pride. (regardless of where the jew lived).
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When I tried to pause the video started from the beggining. That guy of the Jewish agency is antisimetic and anti-Zionist today, he even don't believe in Judaism, what makes him look wierd because of his kippah.
his name is Yigal Ben David of the jewish agency. I do not have access to whatever hebrew site you say makes this claim.
Anti zionism is a general term. There is religious, and secular, and branches of each. And it is another subject.
I thought you talked about Avrum Burg (that also talked in that movie).
Zionism isn't general term. The ideas, principals etc' are obvies and clear, those who do diffrent things or want to do diffrent things are not Zionists.
nothing is anti-semitic / self hating, about a jew whose goal is that all jews become christian.
Nothing is anti-semitic about a jew who says that a simple christian is greater than a jewish rabbi?
Nothing is anti-semitic about a man who thinks that only as christians can jews be free and proud.
He hated judaism. He hated the religious jew.
*Yes, nothing is antisimetic by wanting all Jews become Christian to stop the hatred against tham.
*The source for that is the Magazine "Tmora" pages 12-13 that "qoutes" of Herzl's book.
A. There are no page numbers
B. There is nothing about the Magazine "Tmora" in the internet, and I think there is no such a magazine.
*Right..
No, he didn't.
<sarcasm>
Oh, if he wanted a jewish state in Uganda, that proves he is no anti-semite.
</sarcasm>
No, I just said he wanted to have a Jewish state/State for the Jews very much, but he didn't care where.
--
*Already respond that..
*That too.
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This movie is qouting for people who qoute other people instead of giving the direct source.
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This movie is qouting for people who qoute other people instead of giving the direct source.
you not only defended Herzl`s shocking statement that He saught a meeting with the pope to convert all jews to christian. (this is very different to ann coulter!). 99% of jews would agree with me, that this is anti-semitic.
You defended Brenner saying he only spoke against the diaspora jew.
You defended Chaim Weitzman.
He said he would like to rescue 2 million youth, the rest like the elderly, should perish. They are economically and ethically subhuman.
Ben Gurion
saying regarding the jews of the diaspora. "we do not belong to that jewish nation, we rebel against it"
You defended Brenner, saying he only spoke against the diaspora jew. Are you against #the diaspora jew#? Do you see the diaspora jew just as te nazis did? Yhat is unbelievable..
I see, when you said jews are a nationality. Newman corrected you, that we are a nation not a nationality. But you refused to budge.
Here is what Brenner said.. in note form, I jotted it down.
brenner.. book `a holocaust from heaven`
our national character have been at fault..
we have lived as gypsies and dogs,
what do you expect from anti-semites.
the jews are gypsies, contagion, slop and debay, a spoiled egg, not human, wounded dogs.
the nations strangled us mercillessly as they would an animal.. tey are deserving of respect,
we are not human. All our spiritual treasures are but a dead mosquito.
will not famliar faces from the ghetto haunt our streets. scum of mankind.
BUT YOU SAY HE IS AGAINST THE DIASPORA JEW SO IT IS OK???????
Tell me. Who are the familiar faces from the ghetto?
And when he says our spiritual treasures are but a dead mosquito. What religion is he referring to?
What do you do to mosquitos?
How can you defend this NAZI. He is worse than a nazi.
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*Correct, nothing is antisimetic by this statemen. Herzl wanted to Jews to convert because he wanted to there will be no Antisimetism. Later on he changed his mind because there was antisimetism even to people who were bearly Jewish.
*Well, yes, he statement was too extream. I never heard of Brannar befor that movie, and after I read the other qoute of him that you just gave I think he should be burn in Hell or elsewhere.
*Never defended Chaim Weitzman, stop lying.
*Zionism is a "rebelion" in the Jewish people's history because Zionism is really a new thing and now Jews are not supposed to be afraid of the gentiles etc'. That's at least the way I understand Ben-Gurion words.
*I am against Jews who are afraid of the Gentiles. As self-hating Jews. Brenner just took it too far in his messege. Everyone here don't like self-hating Jews and the disporal Jews are self hating if you yet to understand it. Your shamfull try to show I am a Nazi or a semi-Nazi is just disgusting.
Jews are a nationallity. Zionism is the National movment of the Jewish people, and it's seculer in origin. Zionism say that there is a Jewish nationalliy so everyone can be in it. The first Zionists were extreamly anti-Religion of any sort. A man can be part of the Jewish religion and of the Jewish people, be only part of the Jewish religion or Just part of the Jewish people. It depends on how you define yourself.
If you think there is no Jewish nationallity the Jews have no right on Israel because religion is not a capeable parameter/factor in the question "Does Israel belong to the Jews".
*Brenner can burn in hell..
*Could you provide the qoute or the minute it's qouted ?
thanks.
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OK, I just read that the Zionist leadership objected his ideas.
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ok, we dealt with herzl`s comments to seek an audience with the pope and converting to christianity.
By the way. Do you have any idea how jews have suffered under the pope. in the past.
how about 6:33 and earlier
"an excellent idea enters my mind, to attract outright anti-semites, and make them destroyers of jewish wealth "
Do you defend that too?
he probably thought thta would end anti-semitism too, right?
just like forced conversion to christianity by the pope.
29min
Ben Gurion
"we need jews of the superior type.."
Conbine that with the guy "..ben dovid" (41:13) who
at 42min , 44:50min
described how they selected people. No ultra orthodox. Limits on religious.
The memo at 40min - not to submti this memorandum to the non zionist factions in the rescue efforts. They wanted people who would vote MAPAI. Not Betar or Mafdal To save first and foremost those who will be of use.
The memo said (42:43) that if they can save 10,000 quality people or 1 million people. THey will choose the 10k quality people. By quality they meant , not the Yemenite jews, nor the ultra orthodox jews.
Instead of allowing everybody that came, they turned people away.
Then there is the article at 52min.. Remember all press in israel is state controlled. I do not know what kind of paper or magazine it was. Printed by the shomer union, the shomer`s guide to shomer education. Probably an important official widely followed thing But it said.. This was about how to deal with religious youngsters. "our goal is to make them aware that their faith in God is illogical and unreasonable".
53min, "..ben dovid" says regarding the yemenites. THey cut off their sidelocks
The sephardim had no idea about the secular zionists.. I read a book that talk of the yemenites that came over... They believe wholeheartedly that the exile was over and the redemption had arrived. RELIGIOUSLY. They were religious zionists.
Now, the memory says - they have no connection to national Zionism - the memo says . Refrain from rescuing the harmful element.
The memo says. Refrain from rescuing non zionists. 43min
So religious non zionists who wanted to come to israel to be rescued, and to live there, were turned away. SENT TO THE NAZIS, BY JEWS WORSE THAN NAZIS.
THe memoy says that the efforts of Agudat Yisroel (the religious non zionists). And of Jabotinsky (the secular revisionist zionists). Are not just fruitless. BUT DAMAGING. Jabotinsky wanted to save religious jews too. (ok, he is quoted as saying he wanted to cut off their beards and take away their voting rights. But he did want to save them at least. These founding secular zionists make him look like a saint! He was not a saint)
I am glad if I am mistaken that you did not and would not defend Chaim Weitzman.. But he was
President of the World Zionist Organization, and the first President of the State of Israel.
This moment I cannot find quotes from him.. But if you are against what he has said.. He is a founder and symbol of secular zionism.
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I know that the Vatican invented the idea of "Ghetto", that's all I know.
*I have no reason to defend it because it's fact that some Zionists wanted that the Antisimetics will exple Jews from Europe to the land of Israel. Not destroying tham.
*Well, about the qoute that says that Ben Gurion said that the Jewish people is sub-Human, have no page number.
About the second quote:
A. There is no page number.
B. The book wasn't written by Ben-Gurion and I can't find things about the writer (M. Vezelman) in Google but in conection to this movie and it's sources.
*Yes, early Zionism selected people, it wanted only Ashkenazi Jews but after the holocaust they took Mizrhi Jews because that was what left. And I don't think it's right and it shows that they were pretty racist. Also the "national songs-writer" of Israel was anti-Sefardic/Mizrhi Jews.
*What's memo ? Anyway:
The socialist Zionism was racist and hated all people who didn't thought like tham, even other Zionists as Jabutinsky's Zionism. The leftists Zionism is a shame, there is also leftists Religious Zionism (inside Labor party) so it isn't only seculer Zionism.
And all of other things that you give as an exemples for leftist Zionist Recism I know myself so there is no need to answere.
*Chaim Witzman is might be a symbole for the leftists Zionists, not for the other Zionists.
This movie is anti-Zionists, not only anti-Seculer Zionism.
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I am currently uploading the video to google video and megaupload. I know it is a bit late. It should be possible to pause it. Or download it. So if anybody is interested they can.
I know that the Vatican invented the idea of "Ghetto", that's all I know.
<snip>
*Yes, early Zionism selected people, it wanted only Ashkenazi Jews but after the holocaust they took Mizrhi Jews because that was what left. And I don't think it's right and it shows that they were pretty racist. Also the "national songs-writer" of Israel was anti-Sefardic/Mizrhi Jews.
That is not the tragedy.
The tragedy was that DURING the holocaust. Jews who could have been rescued, were selectively turned away. Because of who they would vote for. They turned away religious jews. Whether ashkenazi or sephardi. (and I imagine most were ashkenazi. The sephardim probably came mostly after the holocaust, and after the creation of the state)
*What's memo ?
It was in the video.. while they were interviewing that ben dovid guy with the kippa. from the jewish agency.
said that if they had a choice between saving 10,000 quality jews over a million. They would save the 10,000 despite the cries of the million.
It was not just that as the memo stated in the beginning, that they had a limited number of people that could be rescued, and so better that they save those who will vote for them.
And that ben dovid guy said in the interview, that the employees at the jewish agency wanted to save all the jews. But the emissary sent by the leadership, came to him to convince him that the ultra orthodox were flees.
Anyway:
The socialist Zionism was racist and hated all people who didn't thought like tham, even other Zionists as Jabutinsky's Zionism. The leftists Zionism is a shame, there is also leftists Religious Zionism (inside Labor party) so it isn't only seculer Zionism.
The secular zionists founded the state of israel.
The religious zionists did not.
And the leftist religious zionists you refer to, inside the labour party. No wonder I had barely heard of them. They are inside a secular or non religious party. Who is their leader, their torah scholar? what sefarim has he written? OK, some may say Shas is a sort of leftist religious zionist. He may be a leftist non/anti zionist. But this is not relevant. The religious zionists did not found the state of israel.
What religious zionists did you have that were behind this nazi like selection process that betrayed religious jews?
To the leaders of these organisation, they were like flees!! inferior!! The founding zionists, were secular. Infact, the only religious zionist torah scholars from old times that spring to mind are Rav Kahane and Rav Kook. They had no say in this.
And all of other things that you give as an exemples for leftist Zionist Recism I know myself so there is no need to answere.
the issue is not racism
the issue is that jews could have been rescued and they were turned away. The issue is murder. Secular zionists, the only zionists that founded the state of israel, throwing religious jews to the nazis.
They are worse than the nazis.
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That is not the tragedy.
The tragedy was that DURING the holocaust. Jews who could have been rescued, were selectively turned away. Because of who they would vote for. They turned away religious jews. Whether ashkenazi or sephardi. (and I imagine most were ashkenazi. The sephardim probably came mostly after the holocaust, and after the creation of the state)
They turned away many people, with no connection to their religious status. The right wing Zionism wanted all Jews inside The British Mandate area but they proffered, of course, the Zionists one and not the non-Zionist/Anti Zionists people.
Sephardic Jews were brought by the leftists for work because they thought they are like Arabs and they can treat them as Arabs and utilize them for their cause. The Yemenite Jews and the "Kvutzat Kinneret" situation is a fine example for it.
It was in the video.. while they were interviewing that ben dovid guy with the kippa. from the jewish agency.
said that if they had a choice between saving 10,000 quality jews over a million. They would save the 10,000 despite the cries of the million.
It was not just that as the memo stated in the beginning, that they had a limited number of people that could be rescued, and so better that they save those who will vote for them.
And that ben dovid guy said in the interview, that the employees at the jewish agency wanted to save all the jews. But the emissary sent by the leadership, came to him to convince him that the ultra orthodox were flees.
I am not familiar with that. My point is that it is not an historical movie but more likly a propaganda movie. It take things out of contexts and make us think that that is what Zionism was made for etc'.
The secular zionists founded the state of israel.
The religious zionists did not.
And the leftist religious zionists you refer to, inside the labour party. No wonder I had barely heard of them. They are inside a secular or non religious party. Who is their leader, their torah scholar? what sefarim has he written? OK, some may say Shas is a sort of leftist religious zionist. He may be a leftist non/anti zionist. But this is not relevant. The religious zionists did not found the state of israel.
What religious zionists did you have that were behind this nazi like selection process that betrayed religious jews?
To the leaders of these organisation, they were like flees!! inferior!! The founding zionists, were secular. Infact, the only religious zionist torah scholars from old times that spring to mind are Rav Kahane and Rav Kook. They had no say in this.
Leftists Seculer Zionists did, they rejected any help of the right wing Zionism and in some cases fought against it as in Altalena when 16 Irgun's people were killed, some were holocaust survives. Some Religious Zionists did helped in the foundation of the state as the "Mizrahi" organization and other National Religious Zionist organization.
The leftist party I'm referring too is "The Meimad Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meimad)". Their leaders are Rabbi Yehuda Amital and Rabbi Michael Melchior. The reason you don't hear about them a lot is because they are inside other party so there is no reason for someone to speak of them. Let's not forget they get only 2 seats in the Knesset out of 12-22 (usually..) of the Labor Party (HaAvoda).
I don't think there were any religious Zionists in the past that were leftists. Jewish religious Zionist leftism is pretty new thing in my opinion, and most of the Religious leftists are mostly Chassidic and not National Religious ("Kippot Srugot") and that's because the ideology of the National Religious is automatically right wing or considered to be one.
the issue is not racism
the issue is that jews could have been rescued and they were turned away. The issue is murder. Secular zionists, the only zionists that founded the state of israel, throwing religious jews to the nazis.
They are worse than the nazis.
The issue is racism because if some people can think they are better of other people, not mention they are Jewish, the way to ignoring other people as people in Europe is very short. The leftists spared a lot of Mizrahi Jews and some Holocaust survivors with D.D.T. and they do experiments on them.
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When you quote, it is better to say
author=q_q_ within the [ quote .... ]
anyhow..
When I said that-
"
The tragedy was that DURING the holocaust. Jews who could have been rescued, were selectively turned away. Because of who they would vote for. They turned away religious jews. Whether ashkenazi or sephardi. (and I imagine most were ashkenazi. The sephardim probably came mostly after the holocaust, and after the creation of the state)
"
It was based alot on the interview with that guy Yigal Ben Dovid, that I mentioned.
And based on the memo.
You recognise neither. When the video is uploaded it will be easier.. to get to the memo or any part of it.
I am aware of their racism..
When I said
"
the issue is not racism,
the issue is that jews could have been rescued and they were turned away. The issue is murder. Secular zionists, the only zionists that founded the state of israel, throwing religious jews to the nazis.
"
I am not denying that the secular zionists were racist.. (perhaps the revionist secular zionists were not. but the original ones were)
you responded that racism leads to that.
Yes, it can. But this is a Worse Issue. And it is this that you are denying. Or not admitting.
But from that video, alot is based on the memo and that interview with the jewish agency guy.
But I think it was Ben Gurion himself that was mentioned as saying we should have selective immigration, jews of the superior type. And he was anti religious.. But the actual implementation of the selection, really shows what it was about. The memo for example.
They let religious jews be slaughtered by the nazis, they refused to rescue them.. No Ultra orthodox jews. Quotas on certain religious jews. No betar, no mafdal. Mapai- yes.
if they had the choice between 10,000 "quality" jews and 1 million. They would choose the 10,000. That is in the memo.
And this is not against all secular zionists. The memo itself said that Jabotinsky`s plans werer not just fruitless, but dangerous.
Jabotinsky , i suppose, wanted to save all jews. He certainly wanted to save the religious ones, I suppose.
And the reason I only mentioned secular ones, was as I said. This video exposed the FOUNDERS. As you admitted, the founders of the state of israel were not religious zionists. THere were no religious zionists involved in this.
I am not talking about EVIL LEFTISTS , so showing me 2 left wing non scholar religious zionist rabbis within the labour party is really irrelevant.
I am talking about events that took place during the holocaust.
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darn thing took about 6 hours. should`ve done it overnight :(
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RZZUY3QB