JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: judeanoncapta on February 16, 2008, 07:34:30 PM
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Go on record with this answer. Yes or No.
Is the Rebbe "Atzmus uMehus Mislabesh B'Guf"?
Yes or No.
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can you accuratly translate, Im thinking of what it means, but please translate for certainty.
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can you accuratly translate, Im thinking of what it means, but please translate for certainty.
I asked him if he beleive that the Rebbe was the "Essence and Identity of God clothed in a Body"
And in a private message he told me "Yes".
This cannot stand.
We cannot have the Torah moderator on our forum who is an idolater.
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can you accuratly translate, Im thinking of what it means, but please translate for certainty.
I asked him if he beleive that the Rebbe was the "Essence and Identity of G-d clothed in a Body"
And in a private message he told me "Yes".
This cannot stand.
We cannot have the Torah moderator on our forum who is an idolater.
I agree, nothing personal on Lubab, but this cant be permitted as legit in any way shape or form. It is xtianity reincarnated.
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Are you sure he said that? If so, we got no one better for the Torah section. No one else is a Rabbi ... and Lubab does a good job. :-[
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Re: "...in a private message he told me "Yes"..."
If the message to you was private, they why am I reading about it?
Keep it private.
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Go on record with this answer. Yes or No.
Is the Rebbe "Atzmus uMehus Mislabesh B'Guf"?
Yes or No.
Yes. But as I said to you in private you haven't the foggiest idea what that phrase means. It's written in hasidic code.
You need to know what is "Essence" you need to know what is being referred to as "guf", you need to know what is meant by "Melubash".
If you don't try to understand these things and we just jump to conclusions than we are no better than the fools who look at the Torah which says "G-d created man in his image", take that literally and then call the Torah heresy.
We all agree that would be foolish, right?
It's the same thing here.
Let those who wish to err, err.
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Re: "...It is xtianity reincarnated..."
Actually, just the opposite is the case...It is Christianity which obtained most of its beliefs and doctrines from Judaism.
I have met numerous Lubavitcher rabbis who are convinced beyond any doubt that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Personally, I have no proof that the Rebbe is, or is not Moshiach.
It's obvious that he made a tremendous impression on his students and community.
I have no end of questions I need answered about Torah & Judaism, but there is no more useless waste of time than arguing "metaphysics" with others who disagree with any particular position.
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Regarding my position as moderator of this forum let me be clear.
I am here for one reason and one reason only: to help save Jewish and righteous gentiles lives.
I did not ask for this position, I was asked to take this position. It means nothing to me.
The only thing that matters to me is the physical and spiritual wellbeing on the Jewish people and everyone else.
I am here to help in that cause for as long as my help is wanted.
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Regarding my position as moderator of this forum let me be clear.
I am here for one reason and one reason only: to help save Jewish and righteous gentiles lives.
I did not ask for this position, I was asked to take this position. It means nothing to me.
The only thing that matters to me is the physical and spiritual wellbeing on the Jewish people and everyone else.
I am here to help in that cause for as long as my help is wanted.
Good enough for me.
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I agree with you Mills, that's what I said a year ago when this issue came up in a thread. I posted a reply to Lubab in the thread that he shouldn't talk about it publicly in the forum but keep it private since it is a divisive issue.
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The Rebbe is responsible for my turning back to Torah & Judaism after a long absence.
I never saw or met him, but I find myself here today because of his outreach to the Jewish People; sending out emissaries worldwide, to find the assimilated Jews and return us to the fold.
No other Jewish Rabbi in recent history (the only exception being Rabbi Meir Kahane) has done so much for so many Jews.
I believe most all of our prophecies regarding the End of Days are now fulfilled.
The rest I leave up to Ha'Shem.
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Go on record with this answer. Yes or No.
Is the Rebbe "Atzmus uMehus Mislabesh B'Guf"?
Yes or No.
Yes. But as I said to you in private you haven't the foggiest idea what that phrase means. It's written in hasidic code.
You need to know what is "Essence" you need to know what is being referred to as "guf", you need to know what is meant by "Melubash".
Can you please explain a little better?...
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Go on record with this answer. Yes or No.
Is the Rebbe "Atzmus uMehus Mislabesh B'Guf"?
Yes or No.
Yes. But as I said to you in private you haven't the foggiest idea what that phrase means. It's written in hasidic code.
You need to know what is "Essence" you need to know what is being referred to as "guf", you need to know what is meant by "Melubash".
Can you please explain a little better?...
I started a sticky thread on the Torah section to begin explaining these concepts. It's like trying to explain advanced mathematics to someone with no background in math. It will take patience, work, understanding and explanation. Check out that thread and if you have any questions please ask them there.
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I brought it out of the private message because of the seriousness of idolatry in Judaism.
Lubab can explain it away if he likes but his beleifs about the Rebbe are clealy idolatrous.
Saying that a human being is the Essense of God clothed in a body is clearly idolatrous.
Lubab has demonstrated his clear desire to pervert the Torah by his wild interpretation of the Rambam which is as opposite from the simple reading as anything could be.
Lubab, I want you out.
You may think I want to take your place, Lubab but I don't.
I don't care who replaces you, jdl4ever is a very good candidate in my book.
I will not continue to associate with an Elokist, Lubab. Forget it.
I don't want to hear your half-baked explanations for idolatry, I want it off the Torah section of the forum.
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I brought it out of the private message because of the seriousness of idolatry in Judaism.
Lubab can explain it away if he likes but his beleifs about the Rebbe are clealy idolatrous.
Saying that a human being is the Essense of G-d clothed in a body is clearly idolatrous.
Lubab has demonstrated his clear desire to pervert the Torah by his wild interpretation of the Rambam which is as opposite from the simple reading as anything could be.
Lubab, I want you out.
You may think I want to take your place, Lubab but I don't.
I don't care who replaces you, jdl4ever is a very good candidate in my book.
I will not continue to associate with an Elokist, Lubab. Forget it.
I don't want to hear your half-baked explanations for idolatry, I want it off the Torah section of the forum.
It's up to Chaim. As I said, I don't care if I am moderator or not. I'm here as long as Chaim wants me here.
But remember. You are not quoting me. You are quoting the Rebbe and I'm just saying I agree with it.
You are calling the Rebbe an idolator, in essence. Are you prepared to do this?
Are you also prepared to call the Chumash idolartry because it says G-d created man in "His image" and He has no image?
I fail to see the difference between one and the other.
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Further, your problem is not with me, or even the Rebbe. Your problem is you don't think that G-d can be found in the physical universe.
This is really a problem you have with the Arizal and you'll need to take it up with him.
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Further, your problem is not with me, or even the Rebbe. Your problem is you don't think that G-d can be found in the physical universe.
This is really a problem you have with the Arizal and you'll need to take it up with him.
No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
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Further, your problem is not with me, or even the Rebbe. Your problem is you don't think that G-d can be found in the physical universe.
This is really a problem you have with the Arizal and you'll need to take it up with him.
No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
We need to take these issues one at a time as they all demand a lot of explanation. I'm trying to build the foundation from the bottom before we get into that stuff.
The first issue we need to address is whether G-d is in the physical world or not.
We need to understand these analogies and we can move on from there.
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Further, your problem is not with me, or even the Rebbe. Your problem is you don't think that G-d can be found in the physical universe.
This is really a problem you have with the Arizal and you'll need to take it up with him.
No, you have a problem with the Ari and his idea of tzimtzum which you think is not literal.
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Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.
habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB (http://www.zshare.net/audio/75918126bcd80e/)
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No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
Also one more thing- (my personal opinion)- I dont think that it is good to go to that particular grave site, becuase of the confusion that is unfortunatly happening. Some believe this, some that, and for the minimum their is at the very least something similar to idolatry going on (at the very least), so I dont think that it would be a good spot to frequently visit.
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No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of God clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
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No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.
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Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.
habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB (http://www.zshare.net/audio/75918126bcd80e/)
You have a halachik obligation to stop throwing around that word "idolatry" and do a proper Chakira and Derisha.
You are way out of line!
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No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.
try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.
If you have any questions, write me a pm.
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Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.
habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB (http://www.zshare.net/audio/75918126bcd80e/)
You have a halachik obligation to stop throwing around that word "idolatry" and do a proper Chakira and Derisha.
You are way out of line!
I am not out of line.
You beleive that your Rebbe is the Essence of God clothed in a body.
If that is not idolatry, the word has no meaning.
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No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.
try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.
If you have any questions, write me a pm.
With that program do you have to listin to the whole recording while your recording it? or is it much quicker then that? I allready have a recorder (I just remembered), but it records all the voice and noise, thats going on, on the computer while I click the record buttom.
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No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.
try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.
If you have any questions, write me a pm.
With that program do you have to listin to the whole recording while your recording it? or is it much quicker then that? I allready have a recorder (I just remembered), but it records all the voice and noise, thats going on, on the computer while I click the record buttom.
Yes, it only records whatever is coming out of your speakers.
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No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
I don't think Lubab would think its ok to "pray" to the Rebbe. And I am hesitant to bring the Rebbe in these talks here out of respect for him. I do hold him in very high esteem.
Now, I have saved on my favorites a link to a Chabad article that explains how in the past Jews have visited the graves of Tzaddikim and when it's permissible as long as someone does not actually pray to the dead etc.
I know it's wrong to beseeching the dead don't get me wrong. But is it really beeseching the dead in the case of the ohels and when someone knows when it would be crossing the line and assur? Like the story of Caleb, who visited & prayed at the graves of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob and Leah in Hebron etc...naturally he didn't pray to them, he prayed for himself while connecting his soul to the place.
That's just how I see it.
Of course, I am a humble ignorant person here and just a female so it would be out of place for me to go further. But I just don't think Lubab feels this way. It's just different philospohies and I wont think any less of Chabad or Lubab ever because of this.
This is how a Chabad rabbi explains this: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm)
I also agree with what you say Tzvi Ben Roshel.
There is disagreement in Halakha as to whether one should pray at the graves of Tzaddikim.
Most say it is fine but there are a few who disagree.
Either way, God will listen to your prayer if it is said sincerely much more than if a deceased Tzaddik prays for you instead.
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No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.
Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?
No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.
But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.
Please do not put words in my mouth.
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Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.
habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB (http://www.zshare.net/audio/75918126bcd80e/)
You have a halachik obligation to stop throwing around that word "idolatry" and do a proper Chakira and Derisha.
You are way out of line!
I am not out of line.
You beleive that your Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body.
If that is not idolatry, the word has no meaning.
You have some questions you need to ask me before you can draw that conclusion, don't you?
Or you just want to defame?
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Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.
habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB (http://www.zshare.net/audio/75918126bcd80e/)
You have a halachik obligation to stop throwing around that word "idolatry" and do a proper Chakira and Derisha.
You are way out of line!
I am not out of line.
You beleive that your Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body.
If that is not idolatry, the word has no meaning.
You have some questions you need to ask me before you can draw that conclusion, don't you?
Or you just want to defame?
Anyone would draw that conclusion. Lubab, your " Ich Ken Upteitchen Yeder Zach" attitude is annoying and deceptive.
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judeanoncapta: "...I am not out of line..."
Actually, YOU ARE out of line!
Most folks have enough 'walking around' sense not to hang their dirty laundry out in public for the whole world to see!
And, what exactly makes YOU the world's foremost Authority on all spiritual matters?
So far, you've violated the privacy of your own and another member's private messages, and are disrupting the forum by attacking another member (and, I might add, a member and Moderator who happens to be an esteemed scholar of Torah) for points of metaphysical doctrine with which you disagree.
As they say at the barrooms, "If you want to continue with this, take it outside."
An apology and sense of humility are what is necessary and should be forthcoming.
And meanwhile, still, Israel and Jews worldwide are facing great peril.
There is simply no time for such frivolous luxuries as interpersonal attacks.
Such division among us led to the Fall of the 2nd Temple and our Exile from The Land.
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judeanoncapta: "...I am not out of line..."
Actually, YOU ARE out of line!
Most folks have enough 'walking around' sense not to hang their dirty laundry out in public for the whole world to see!
And, what exactly makes YOU the world's foremost Authority on all spiritual matters?
So far, you've violated the privacy of your own and another member's private messages, and are disrupting the forum by attacking another member (and, I might add, a member and Moderator who happens to be an esteemed scholar of Torah) for points of metaphysical doctrine with which you disagree.
As they say at the barrooms, "If you want to continue with this, take it outside."
An apology and sense of humility are what is necessary and should be forthcoming.
And meanwhile, still, Israel and Jews worldwide are facing great peril.
There is simply no time for such frivolous luxuries as interpersonal attacks.
Such division among us led to the Fall of the 2nd Temple and our Exile from The Land.
I will let Chaim decide.
If he keeps Lubab on as Moderator, I will leave the forum. Without a splash, I will just leave my friends my email and leave.
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judeanoncapta: "...I am not out of line..."
Actually, YOU ARE out of line!
Most folks have enough 'walking around' sense not to hang their dirty laundry out in public for the whole world to see!
And, what exactly makes YOU the world's foremost Authority on all spiritual matters?
So far, you've violated the privacy of your own and another member's private messages, and are disrupting the forum by attacking another member (and, I might add, a member and Moderator who happens to be an esteemed scholar of Torah) for points of metaphysical doctrine with which you disagree.
As they say at the barrooms, "If you want to continue with this, take it outside."
An apology and sense of humility are what is necessary and should be forthcoming.
And meanwhile, still, Israel and Jews worldwide are facing great peril.
There is simply no time for such frivolous luxuries as interpersonal attacks.
Such division among us led to the Fall of the 2nd Temple and our Exile from The Land.
Its not out of line, Judea is basding himself and his arguments from the Torah, and Torah scolars. Its no mitzva to be humble in this situation. Sometimes "Holy Boldness" is needed.
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judeanoncapta: "...I am not out of line..."
Actually, YOU ARE out of line!
Most folks have enough 'walking around' sense not to hang their dirty laundry out in public for the whole world to see!
And, what exactly makes YOU the world's foremost Authority on all spiritual matters?
So far, you've violated the privacy of your own and another member's private messages, and are disrupting the forum by attacking another member (and, I might add, a member and Moderator who happens to be an esteemed scholar of Torah) for points of metaphysical doctrine with which you disagree.
As they say at the barrooms, "If you want to continue with this, take it outside."
An apology and sense of humility are what is necessary and should be forthcoming.
And meanwhile, still, Israel and Jews worldwide are facing great peril.
There is simply no time for such frivolous luxuries as interpersonal attacks.
Such division among us led to the Fall of the 2nd Temple and our Exile from The Land.
Its not out of line, Judea is basding himself and his arguments from the Torah, and Torah scolars. Its no mitzva to be humble in this situation. Sometimes "Holy Boldness" is needed.
Look to the Torah Tzvi, for how to handle these situations. This is not being handled properly at all. There has been no chakira no derisha no honest search for what I really believe.
In a word: it is a witchunt and you are the one that is inspiring JNC to continue with this ridiculous crusade.
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Well as long as you don't think the Rebbe is G-d then I suggest all of you guys stop arguing publically and do it in private instead since this is not going to lead to anything productive. I'm Misnagad so you all know where I stand but I'm not going to join these types of arguments that cause hatred between Jews & where there is no hope of convincing the other side.
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I do not think we can really have it both ways..
Condemn him for believing X, and Condemn him for describing or promoting belief in X. Or deny him the right to elaborate.
I think an elaboration of Lulab`s controversial views would be very interesting, but not suitable for the JTF forum..Lest people step in and be misled..
Both judea and lulab have alot to contribute..
Lulab humbly said that all that matters to him is saving jewish and gentiles lives.. And Judea feels it unsuitable for a person with such views to be moderator..
I did not think lulab should be thrown out. He has alot to contribute.
I think a healthy compromise that would let us benefit from the knowledge of Judea, and Lulab too, would be if Lulab was not moderator, but he was allowed to post here, without his posts being screened/delayed before appearing. On the understanding that he does not bring up this Yechi stuff in the JTF forum.
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What is Yechi? Soory for my ignorance, I am a Gentile and my Hebrew is very poor.
Anyway, I believe you guys are just causing machloket by attacking Lubab. He has never tried to "convert" anyone to Chasiduth. You have just sent him a private question about difficult metaphisical issues in Hebrew, and then brought his answer to the forum in English. I am Italian and we say "traduttore tradittore" (A transalator is a traitor).
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I regret having gotten involved in this dispute in the first place.
As someone said earlier, there are Jews in peril. We all agree we want to help them. That is what this forum is about.
We are wasting valuable time and energy debating old questions that have already been asked and answered many times by people much smarter than all of us.
Let us PLEASE get back to the vital work at hand and stop this fighting amongst ourselves while we have knives at our throats. R"L
If anyone has questions about my personal beliefs, they may ask me. But this is not the place for such a discussion.
The thread is locked.
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Well as long as you don't think the Rebbe is G-d then I suggest all of you guys stop arguing publically and do it in private instead since this is not going to lead to anything productive. I'm Misnagad so you all know where I stand but I'm not going to join these types of arguments that cause hatred between Jews & where there is no hope of convincing the other side.
He beleives the Rebbe is God clothed in a body, jdl4ever.