JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: q_q_ on March 01, 2008, 09:29:44 PM
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can a kohen be the messiah?
was rabbi meir kahane a kohen?
(nobody draw conclusions! we all accept the rambam, that if the man dies , or rather, "is killed", then he cannot be the messiah!)
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No,
(their is an opinion that if he doesn't come from Ben David he can come from someone else, but it is not accepted, Ben David will come from David).
And Rabbi Kahane was a Kohen.
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(their is an opinion that if he doesn't come from Ben David he can come from someone else, but it is not accepted, Ben David will come from David).
whose opinion is it that he can come from somebody else?
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Ben David must be from David HaMelech, but the Vilan Gaon writes of the other Mashiach, Mashiach Ben Yosef who comes first. The Vilna Gaon's students in his name said in Kol HaTor; Mashiach Ben Yosef would be a Kohen.
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No.
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where does it say that there will be a Messiah Ben Yosef
http://www.yedidnefesh.com/kaballah/kol-hator/index.htm
Amoung other places. - This is from the teachings of the Vilna Gaon, written by his student.
Also found in the Zohar, Talmud, and Midrashim.
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what tribe was David from? (presumably not a kohen, and that is why moshiach ben dovid cannot be a cohen ?)
Interesting that anybody says Moshiach ben yosef can be a kohen. Yosef was not a cohen or levi. (Levi was Yosef`s brother, and Cohanim are a subset of leviim)
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what tribe was David from? (presumably not a kohen, and that is why moshiach ben dovid cannot be a cohen ?)
Interesting that anybody says Moshiach ben yosef can be a kohen. Yosef was not a cohen or levi. (Levi was Yosef`s brother, and Cohanim are a subset of leviim)
Dovid was from Yehudah.
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david was from the tribe of judah. he was a decandent of peraz
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whose dovid
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whose dovid
The King of Israel, whom the Messiah will come from.
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whose dovid
The King of Israel, whom the Messiah will come from.
oh you mean david
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ok shimon , so you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda? ok
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ok shimon , so you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda? ok
no odkahanechai made a mistake his name ztl is david not dovid
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ok shimon , so you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda? ok
no odkahanechai made a mistake his name ztl is david not dovid
In proper Hebrew, it's Dovid. I'm not Sephardi.
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ok shimon , so you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda? ok
no odkahanechai made a mistake his name ztl is david not dovid
In proper Hebrew, it's Dovid. I'm not Sefaradi.
dovid is in Yiddish, in Hebrew its David not pronounced like in English
Dovid is Loshon Kodesh, there's a Komotz under the Dalet...
If you're Sefardi fine, but you're not allowed to impose you own minhagim on other people.
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ok shimon , so you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda? ok
no odkahanechai made a mistake his name ztl is david not dovid
dude (shimon). if you are that illiterate not to know that Dovid is ashkenazi pronunciation, or to understand my question "do you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda?"
If you are too illiterate to know that in this context, when I refer to yosef and david, I mean King David. Well, it makes you very unnreliable.
in a previous thread you confused the expression Gut Shabbos. Thinging it was hebrew corrupted by ashkenazim. If you are a self hating ashkenazi, then keep the self hate to yourself.
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ok shimon , so you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda? ok
no odkahanechai made a mistake his name ztl is david not dovid
dude (shimon). if you are that illiterate not to know that Dovid is ashkenazi pronunciation, or to understand my question "do you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda?" (classic/traditional) pronunciation is wrong. With no basis either.
If you are too illiterate to know that in this context, when I refer to yosef and david, I mean King David. Well, it makes you very unnreliable.
in a previous thread you confused the expression Gut Shabbos. Thinging it was hebrew corrupted by ashkenazim. If you are a self hating ashkenazi, then keep the self hate to yourself.
(I wrote david since that is the english name. King David. / Dovid HaMelech )
i never said hebrew was corrupted by anyone. but since we proud jews are making aliyah we should revert back to the customs of our ancestors who lived in ancient judea
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ok shimon , so you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda? ok
no odkahanechai made a mistake his name ztl is david not dovid
dude (shimon). if you are that illiterate not to know that Dovid is ashkenazi pronunciation, or to understand my question "do you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda?" (classic/traditional) pronunciation is wrong. With no basis either.
If you are too illiterate to know that in this context, when I refer to yosef and david, I mean King David. Well, it makes you very unnreliable.
in a previous thread you confused the expression Gut Shabbos. Thinging it was hebrew corrupted by ashkenazim. If you are a self hating ashkenazi, then keep the self hate to yourself.
(I wrote david since that is the english name. King David. / Dovid HaMelech )
i never said hebrew was corrupted by anyone. but since we proud jews are making aliyah we should revert back to the customs of our ancestors who lived in ancient judea
Putting aside whether we should pronounce according to tradition or "custom" (you suggest the latter)
Ivrit/modern hebrew pronunciation, which seems to be all you know, is not an ancient thing.
Infact, I think in judea`s analysis, I vagely recall, kamatz is oh like boris, much like the ashkenazi way.
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Can a Kohen be the messiah?
Was Rabbi Meir Kahane a Kohen?
(nobody draw conclusions! we all accept the Rambam, that if the man dies , or rather, "is killed", then he cannot be the messiah!)
A Kohen can be Mashiach Ben Yosef but not Mashiach Ben David. Either Rabbi Meir Kahane or his son Rabbi Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane were Mashiach Ben Yosef which can die but doesn't have to. Mashiach Ben David must be from Judah and can never die.
MBD will bring peace, so presumably will not be killed. But he can die naturally - AFTER he has done x y and z.
RAMBAM says if he is killed before he has done xyz then he is not the Messiah.
He does not say "if he is killed" or "if he dies" then he is not the messiah!
Nothing there about M living forever!
On the contrary, the RAMBAM says not to expect supernatural things.
What is your source that MBY must be a kohen? (i.e not a ben yosef) ?
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ok shimon , so you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda? ok
no odkahanechai made a mistake his name ztl is david not dovid
dude (shimon). if you are that illiterate not to know that Dovid is ashkenazi pronunciation, or to understand my question "do you mean King David is tribe of Yehuda?" (classic/traditional) pronunciation is wrong. With no basis either.
If you are too illiterate to know that in this context, when I refer to yosef and david, I mean King David. Well, it makes you very unnreliable.
in a previous thread you confused the expression Gut Shabbos. Thinging it was hebrew corrupted by ashkenazim. If you are a self hating ashkenazi, then keep the self hate to yourself.
(I wrote david since that is the english name. King David. / Dovid HaMelech )
i never said hebrew was corrupted by anyone. but since we proud jews are making aliyah we should revert back to the customs of our ancestors who lived in ancient judea
Putting aside whether we should pronounce according to tradition or "custom" (you suggest the latter)
Ivrit/modern hebrew pronunciation, which seems to be all you know, is not an ancient thing.
Infact, I think in judea`s analysis, I vagely recall, kamatz is oh like boris, much like the ashkenazi way.
its more closer to the ashkenaz pronounciation. and i never stated that modern hebrew is the real hebrew. if you want to learn hebrew don't take a hebrew class just read the tanach. but these days are the first times in thousand of years that the majority of jews can actually speak and understand hebrew so its still great even if its not the exact pronounciation
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<snip>
its more closer to the ashkenaz pronounciation. and i never stated that modern hebrew is the real hebrew. if you want to learn hebrew don't take a hebrew class just read the tanach. but these days are the first times in thousand of years that the majority of jews can actually speak and understand hebrew so its still great even if its not the exact pronounciation
Ivrit is "more closer" to the "ashkenaz" pronunciation?
That is a subjective statement, and it`s wrong.
Is this meant to be some kind of argument for jews to throw away the ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions of pronouncing hebrew? or just for the ashkenazim to throw it out?
ashkenazi pronunciation is not like wearing the clothing customary in europe, like black hats.
All ashkenazim (to my knowledge) pronounce kamatz like the o in boris. This is not some "custom". This is ancient tradition. This is no reason to throw away divine tradition and exchange it for a man made pronounciation. What kind of nonsense are you talking.. Where is your religious belief that we have a tradition from sinai.
Ivrit - modern hebrew - is a man made pronounciation. Yes, it is similar to ashkenazi and Sefaradi pronunciation. Is this some kind of argument to take it and throw away ashkenazi and Sefaradi pronounciation? What anti religious maliciousness..
If you want us all to adopt the same pronounciation, then do as judeanoncapta has, and look for the true pronounciation.
And by the way. You started this , not by fairly making your case. But by feigning obtusity, to pretend that the ashkenazi pronounciation does not exist.. And telling odkahanechai that he had pronounced Dovid wrongly. What is worse is that you present yourself now, not as typically obtuse or as an ignoramous. But as somebody who knew what he was doing, and had an agenda of getting rid of ashkenazi pronounciation, and expects everybody else to buy your dogma. So you just slipped it in. You didn`t fool anybody here though.. Maybe waste more time watching butterflies in the garden, and you will become more subtle.
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<snip>
its more closer to the ashkenaz pronounciation. and i never stated that modern hebrew is the real hebrew. if you want to learn hebrew don't take a hebrew class just read the tanach. but these days are the first times in thousand of years that the majority of jews can actually speak and understand hebrew so its still great even if its not the exact pronounciation
Ivrit is "more closer" to the "ashkenaz" pronunciation?
That is a subjective statement, and it`s wrong.
Is this meant to be some kind of argument for jews to throw away the ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions of pronouncing hebrew? or just for the ashkenazim to throw it out?
ashkenazi pronunciation is not like wearing the clothing customary in europe, like black hats.
What's wrong with black hats?
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<snip>
its more closer to the ashkenaz pronounciation. and i never stated that modern hebrew is the real hebrew. if you want to learn hebrew don't take a hebrew class just read the tanach. but these days are the first times in thousand of years that the majority of jews can actually speak and understand hebrew so its still great even if its not the exact pronounciation
Ivrit is "more closer" to the "ashkenaz" pronunciation?
That is a subjective statement, and it`s wrong.
Is this meant to be some kind of argument for jews to throw away the ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions of pronouncing hebrew? or just for the ashkenazim to throw it out?
ashkenazi pronunciation is not like wearing the clothing customary in europe, like black hats.
What's wrong with black hats?
Nothing. But,
there is the argument that customs do not cross time and space and when you move location permanently, they can drop off like rain off a raincoat.
Black hats are not from sinai.
Pronounciation of hebrew are not invented customs. They are what we have today of a tradition going back to Sinai.
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<snip>
its more closer to the ashkenaz pronounciation. and i never stated that modern hebrew is the real hebrew. if you want to learn hebrew don't take a hebrew class just read the tanach. but these days are the first times in thousand of years that the majority of jews can actually speak and understand hebrew so its still great even if its not the exact pronounciation
Ivrit is "more closer" to the "ashkenaz" pronunciation?
That is a subjective statement, and it`s wrong.
Is this meant to be some kind of argument for jews to throw away the ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions of pronouncing hebrew? or just for the ashkenazim to throw it out?
ashkenazi pronunciation is not like wearing the clothing customary in europe, like black hats.
What's wrong with black hats?
Nothing. But,
there is the argument that customs do not cross time and space and when you move location permanently, they can drop off like rain off a raincoat. And black hats are not from sinai.
Black Hats aren't from Sinai, but a double covering is. And a black hat is what most Ashkenazim chose to be their second covering.
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Black Hats aren't from Sinai, but a double covering is. And a black hat is what most Ashkenazim chose to be their second covering.
Well, I am not arguing AGAINST black hats. Or even that they should be changed. Anyhow, you suggest there that a black hat can be changed for something else. That supports my point.
In contrast, we cannot change Ashkenazi or Sefaradi pronounciation for Ivrit pronounciation.
That is my point.
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not moshiach ben david... who has to descend from david hamelech on his father's side which is from shevet yehudah...
moshiach ben yosef on the otherhand is a machloket... some argue because of the sinning of shevet ephraim and menashe before the exile of the 10 tribes they lost their oppot. historically to fulfill yosef's role... and a pasuk from psalms... near the end of psalm 78 i think... seems to support that contention... in which case a kohen like rav meir kahane could have been the mby we were waiting for...
there are others who argue no... only that generation lost that right but ultimately mby will descend as does mbd from yehudah... from yosef hatzadik... hope that helps... nik. out...
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Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country?
How do you know? Were you there?
The fact is that no one can tell anyone else who's following his legitimate customs that his Hebrew is wrong.
Two Sfardim who had become Lubavitch once came to the Rebbe, ZY"A, and asked if they should change their pronunciation of Loshon Kodesh to the Ashkenazic one, as that is what is used by virtually all of Lubavitch.
The Rebbe told them, "No. You should continue the customs of your fathers."
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Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country? The Yiddish pronunciation is a Germanic influence.
Real Hebrew has a gutural ayin and chet and a tet and kuf that most Ashkenazim don't know how to say. I wouldn't go as far to say that a vav is a w and that a gimel without a dagesh is a gh like in Arabic that sounds like a French r. But we have people on this forum that do think that.
What stupidity.. Ashkenazi pronounciation is not yiddish pronounciation.
Yaakuv and Suhkus are yiddish equivalents of the hebrew.
YaaKove and SueKose are ashkenazi
there is no such thing as "yiddish pronounciation", except of yiddish. There are yiddish transliterations of hebrew words, as mentioned. Just like in english there is Joel(Yoel) and Joseph(Yosef). But yiddish transliterations are not ashkenazi pronounciation of hebrew. As demonstrated
Sefaradi pronounciation pronounces the 2 Tafs, with and without a dot, the same. Certainly wrong.
Ashkenazi pronounciation at least preserved a distinction Taf, Saf (though the S is also made by the letter Sin)
Ashkenazi pronounciation has its problems . But so does Sefaradi. Sefaradim preserved the consonants a bit better..(e.g. a distinction between alef and ayin, kaf and kuf). Though it did not preserve it for Taf. And neither ashkenazi or Sefaradi managed to get all 6 of the BGDKFT letters distinguished.
The Teimani Yemenites do distinguish them all.
Sure, ashkenazi pronounciation may have been influenced by yiddish.. The Cholem vowel got particularly varied. But the Sefaradi pronounciation would probably have been influenced by arabic.(this may not be obvious given the similarities between hebrew and arabic).
When a Sefaradi davens, it does sound quite similar to the noise that comes out of a mosque. At the end of the day though, one should not be prejudice against arabic sounding voices! It is hebrew, and he probably hates arabs too!
Ivrit is not Sefaradi hebrew. Ivrit does not distinguish the consonants like ayin aleph, kuf kaf, as the Sefaradim do. (and not doing so is not good).. And the kamatz is reduced to one sound, and completely the same as patach. Another mistake.
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All ashkenazim (to my knowledge) pronounce kamatz like the o in boris. This is not some "custom". This is ancient tradition. This is no reason to throw away divine tradition and exchange it for a man made pronounciation. What kind of nonsense are you talking.. Where is your religious belief that we have a tradition from sinai.
I thought they say it's like an aw sound. Boris is pronounced like a vav without a dot on top.
Just like the so-called gh sound is rrrrrrr (no g).
if aw is meant to be like the o in boris, then yes, it is pronounced like that!
I have seen it written it written that the "aw" sound is "aw" as in father. I see that is not far off. But from what I have heard, it is like the o in boris. Maybe that is what they mean anyway. "father" is a bad example, father is an arrr sound far thur.
In ashkenazi, The Cholem (vav with dot "on top" ), is OHHHHHHHH as in Go, No.
In ashkenazi the Shuruk, (vav with dot "in middle"), is oooooooo like boo, poo, moo, You.
note- vav with dot on top, I always write the dot slightly to the left. Similarly, the vav with dot in the middle, the dot is on the left side. Hebrew does of course go right to left!
I cannot recall a vav with no mark(vowel) at all. A Vav without a dot on top, could have one in the middle. Or underneath. If underneath, it becomes a vowel-letter, V (or as JNC has it, W). But that is nothing like the o in boris. Sefaradim pronounce their Cholem like the o in boris, a vav -WITH - a dot on top. If in the middle it is ooo is in boo. That is not like Boris. I have no idea what you mean when you say vav with no dot on top is like o in boris. That is not the case in ashkenazi or Sefaradi.
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Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country? The Yiddish pronunciation is a Germanic influence.
Real Hebrew has a gutural ayin and chet and a tet and kuf that most Ashkenazim don't know how to say. I wouldn't go as far to say that a vav is a w and that a gimel without a dagesh is a gh like in Arabic that sounds like a French r. But we have people on this forum that do think that.
What stupidity.. Ashkenazi pronounciation is not yiddish pronounciation.
Yaakuv and Suhkus are yiddish equivalents of the hebrew.
YaaKove and SueKose are ashkenazi
there is no such thing as "yiddish pronounciation", except of yiddish. There are yiddish transliterations of hebrew words, as mentioned. Just like in english there is Joel(Yoel) and Joseph(Yosef). But yiddish transliterations are not ashkenazi pronounciation of hebrew. As demonstrated
Sefaradi pronounciation pronounces the 2 Tafs, with and without a dot, the same. Certainly wrong.
Ashkenazi pronounciation at least preserved a distinction Taf, Saf (though the S is also made by the letter Sin)
Ashkenazi pronounciation has its problems . But so does Sefaradi. Sefaradim preserved the consonants a bit better..(e.g. a distinction between alef and ayin, kaf and kuf). Though it did not preserve it for Taf. And neither ashkenazi or Sefaradi managed to get all 6 of the BGDKFT letters distinguished.
The Teimani Yemenites do distinguish them all.
Sure, ashkenazi pronounciation may have been influenced by yiddish.. The Cholem vowel got particularly varied. But the Sefaradi pronounciation would probably have been influenced by arabic.(this may not be obvious given the similarities between hebrew and arabic).
When a Sefaradi davens, it does sound quite simiilar to the nobise that comes out of a mosque. At the end of the day though, one should not be prejudice against arabic sounding voices! It is hebrew, and he probably hates arabs too!
Ivrit is not Sefaradi hebrew. Ivrit does not distinguish the consonants like ayin aleph, kuf kaf, as the Sefaradim do. (and not doing so is not good).. And the kamatz is reduced to one sound, and completely the same as patach. Another mistake.
some sefardim pronounce a taf as a th which is the ancient hebrew way. but the ashkenaz s is closer then the sefardi t.
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Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country? The Yiddish pronunciation is a Germanic influence.
Real Hebrew has a gutural ayin and chet and a tet and kuf that most Ashkenazim don't know how to say. I wouldn't go as far to say that a vav is a w and that a gimel without a dagesh is a gh like in Arabic that sounds like a French r. But we have people on this forum that do think that.
What stupidity.. Ashkenazi pronounciation is not yiddish pronounciation.
Yaakuv and Suhkus are yiddish equivalents of the hebrew.
YaaKove and SueKose are ashkenazi
there is no such thing as "yiddish pronounciation", except of yiddish. There are yiddish transliterations of hebrew words, as mentioned. Just like in english there is Joel(Yoel) and Joseph(Yosef). But yiddish transliterations are not ashkenazi pronounciation of hebrew. As demonstrated
Sefaradi pronounciation pronounces the 2 Tafs, with and without a dot, the same. Certainly wrong.
Ashkenazi pronounciation at least preserved a distinction Taf, Saf (though the S is also made by the letter Sin)
Ashkenazi pronounciation has its problems . But so does Sefaradi. Sefaradim preserved the consonants a bit better..(e.g. a distinction between alef and ayin, kaf and kuf). Though it did not preserve it for Taf. And neither ashkenazi or Sefaradi managed to get all 6 of the BGDKFT letters distinguished.
The Teimani Yemenites do distinguish them all.
Sure, ashkenazi pronounciation may have been influenced by yiddish.. The Cholem vowel got particularly varied. But the Sefaradi pronounciation would probably have been influenced by arabic.(this may not be obvious given the similarities between hebrew and arabic).
When a Sefaradi davens, it does sound quite simiilar to the nobise that comes out of a mosque. At the end of the day though, one should not be prejudice against arabic sounding voices! It is hebrew, and he probably hates arabs too!
Ivrit is not Sefaradi hebrew. Ivrit does not distinguish the consonants like ayin aleph, kuf kaf, as the Sefaradim do. (and not doing so is not good).. And the kamatz is reduced to one sound, and completely the same as patach. Another mistake.
some Sefaradim pronounce a taf as a th which is the ancient hebrew way. but the ashkenaz s is closer then the Sefaradi t.
Shimon, anyone who really thinks they know how Loshon Kodesh was spoken in Ancient Israel is fooling himself.
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some Sefaradim pronounce a taf as a th which is the ancient hebrew way. but the ashkenaz s is closer then the Sefaradi t.
that has been said. What is your point?
You were making stupid comments that saying "Dovid" is wrong.
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Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country? The Yiddish pronunciation is a Germanic influence.
Real Hebrew has a gutural ayin and chet and a tet and kuf that most Ashkenazim don't know how to say. I wouldn't go as far to say that a vav is a w and that a gimel without a dagesh is a gh like in Arabic that sounds like a French r. But we have people on this forum that do think that.
What stupidity.. Ashkenazi pronounciation is not yiddish pronounciation.
Yaakuv and Suhkus are yiddish equivalents of the hebrew.
YaaKove and SueKose are ashkenazi
there is no such thing as "yiddish pronounciation", except of yiddish. There are yiddish transliterations of hebrew words, as mentioned. Just like in english there is Joel(Yoel) and Joseph(Yosef). But yiddish transliterations are not ashkenazi pronounciation of hebrew. As demonstrated
Sefaradi pronounciation pronounces the 2 Tafs, with and without a dot, the same. Certainly wrong.
Ashkenazi pronounciation at least preserved a distinction Taf, Saf (though the S is also made by the letter Sin)
Ashkenazi pronounciation has its problems . But so does Sefaradi. Sefaradim preserved the consonants a bit better..(e.g. a distinction between alef and ayin, kaf and kuf). Though it did not preserve it for Taf. And neither ashkenazi or Sefaradi managed to get all 6 of the BGDKFT letters distinguished.
The Teimani Yemenites do distinguish them all.
Sure, ashkenazi pronounciation may have been influenced by yiddish.. The Cholem vowel got particularly varied. But the Sefaradi pronounciation would probably have been influenced by arabic.(this may not be obvious given the similarities between hebrew and arabic).
When a Sefaradi davens, it does sound quite simiilar to the nobise that comes out of a mosque. At the end of the day though, one should not be prejudice against arabic sounding voices! It is hebrew, and he probably hates arabs too!
Ivrit is not Sefaradi hebrew. Ivrit does not distinguish the consonants like ayin aleph, kuf kaf, as the Sefaradim do. (and not doing so is not good).. And the kamatz is reduced to one sound, and completely the same as patach. Another mistake.
some Sefaradim pronounce a taf as a th which is the ancient hebrew way. but the ashkenaz s is closer then the Sefaradi t.
Shimon, anyone who really thinks they know how Loshon Kodesh was spoken in Ancient Israel is fooling himself.
its actually not foolish defintely any profesor studying ancient semitic languages can teach you the real way to pronounce hebrew. and im sure there a few rabbis who know
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its actually not foolish defintely any profesor studying ancient semitic languages can teach you the real way to pronounce hebrew. and im sure there a few rabbis who know
putting aside the sillyness of your statement.
what professors (if any) taught you?
and what rabbis (if any)?
maybe we can all benefit from what *THEY THINK* and agree by clear proofs, is "the way"