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General Category => Introduce Yourself => Topic started by: Ex Muslim 4 Israel on March 01, 2008, 10:25:41 PM
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Shalom JTF people
I'm an ex muslim, 24 years old, I have left islam for good and all I want now is to really affiliate in pro Israel/zionist activities as I really wish (my dream) is to convert to judaism soemday, I've been told I might have jewish blood so that I love israel and the jews so much. I've been visiting JTF's website and listening to my Hero Chaim religiously for over 2 years now, that's why I really confide in this place and certainly would love to share my personal testimony with you all.
Shalom. As an Arab Muslim I once asked myself: Why do I hate Israel? I really thought about this question. After only a little deliberation the answer was clear, because I am a Muslim and Islam is extremely intolerant. It's the intolerance to everything non Muslim, that is the problem and I say this as a Muslim, but today I have rejected the teachings of Islam for this very reason. I have left Islam. As an Arab "PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi", living in an Arab country, coming from a Muslim family, I was brought up with the hatred of Jews, Christians, and all non Muslims. Now I'm 24, I have matured enough to view the world through a different perspective; I reviewed real history and studied the sequence of events before and since the restoration of the State of Israel. I decided to step outside the mindset of a typical Muslim. It didn't take long to realize that I was on the wrong track and I moved quickly to the other side. In order to be at peace with myself I have come to reject the hatred of Israel and now love my former enemy. I have not embraced another religion but I am seeking a new spiritual path.
Why do the Arabs and Muslims have to reject the presence of a Jewish state in a tiny percentage of the land of the Middle East? Why does Islamic intolerance forbid other nations their right to exist in their own land? The whole world should realize that Islam is at war with all nations on the planet. In our Muslim societies it is not "the extremists" but the whole society infected with this hatred. It is in the mosques, the schools, in the media and in the homes of nearly every Muslim family. It isn't just Israel they hate but America and Christians as well. Islam hates all other religions. In the case of Israel, its only fault is that it's a Jewish state who wants to live in peace within its borders. It's not a struggle of so called "PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis" to establish a country and retain some land, which was never theirs, I know because I studied the real history. The real problem is racism and the intolerance of Muslims, the blind hatred and jealousy to see a flourishing, strong and modern country where people from other faiths can live peacefully. Why are the Jews forbidden to have a country? These people have contributed much to the world's culture and offered the best scientists, artists, doctors and have been victims of intolerance throughout history? Why are they forbidden to live in their national Zionist dream and return to their homeland, which was some desert which they cultivated and transformed in to one of the most beautiful landscapes on earth? Why do the Arabs and the Muslim world have to take everything, and claim every land they step on to be theirs. "Eretz Yisrael" never existed, and should never, and that is coming from me an Arab who is classified as a "PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi." The creation of a PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi state would be the biggest threat to the existence of Israel and would not bring one day of peace to Israel; I know how my people think! By promoting such a state would be the equivalent of supporting the Nazis in their quest to destroy the Jews.
Israel has already made the mistake twice of giving land for peace, once in Southern Lebanon, and secondly in Gaza. We all know the terrible results: the expansion of Hizballah's power in Lebanon and the creation of a terrorist state in Gaza. Hamas and other terrorist organizations now have the space to launch more terrorist attacks and hostile activities on Israeli cities and villages.
Israel's right to exist shouldn't be open for discussion. Hamas, Hizballah or Islamic Jihad, and the people behind them, must be destroyed. Nothing should hinder Israel's army to do whatever it takes to protect their people and ensure the safety of Israel, from Tel Aviv, to the smallest settlement inside Israel which should include Judea and Samaria (the West Bank).
I don't blame the Israeli army for any defense measure it takes. It has been fighting Islamic terrorism long before any other nation has faced their atrocities. The Israeli soldiers have been on the front line on behalf of the whole free world. I am proud to support the Israeli defense forces, the most civilized and humane army in the world, no matter how the media might try to portray them. One can't but respect the brave Israeli army which puts its soldiers' lives at risk in order to protect civilian life in Gaza or Southern Lebanon, the same civilians whom in both places have voted terrorist organizations to power. The same "innocent civilians" which deny Israel's right to exist, who never are held accountable for the democratic choices they have made. Yet still, the Israeli army, and in the most critical war times, try as much as possible to avoid harming their lives, even at the expense of losing lives on their side as well as tactical and strategic disadvantages because of their moral behavior. I salute the Israeli army; I can't but support these heroes, and bow in respect to the memory of their fallen ones. I can't but stand with Israel in its fight for its existence amid this crazy part of the world.
I used to hate Israel with a passion but today I am proud to say that I have shed my hatred for Israel and it has transformed to a deep love, passion, and respect for Zionism and all the values it stands for.
I am proud that today I support the full restoration of Jerusalem. For the first time in my life I'm at peace with myself and in great harmony of what I believe in; standing with Israel and the Jewish people, who are the most forgiving and tolerant people on earth. They must be praised for their deep dedication to their cause, and for their patience in their endurance of harm and hatred.
Jerusalem should never be divided and soon the Temple Mount should also be liberated. All other religious groups in the world have free access to their most sacred sites yet the Jews still watch their holiest place, Solomon's Temple, under occupation. I can't but feel compassionate with their dream, and I know that their fight is now my fight.
Israel's existence and survival is really a test and responsibility for the whole civilized world. It's the battle against Islam's imperial quest to conquer the whole world. Israel is the fortress and stronghold for freedom and tolerance in the Middle East, the frontline on the world’s war against the tyranny of Islam.
I have held my tongue for too long but today a great burden has been lifted from my heart. I don't care if I've been considered a traitor by my people for loving Israel. It's an honor for me; if supporting Israel's right to exist is a sin then I'm a sinner. I'm proud to be an Arab who stands with a country that should be emulated by all its neighbors. For the sake of its people and for the sake of the world's stability and freedom, I'm proud to say I love Israel. I know that even if I don't have Jewish blood in my veins, I know I am Israeli at heart. Long live Israel!
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Welcome.
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Welcome, Ex-Muslim 4 Israel!
What a different world we could live in if all Muslims would come to share your insights and wisdom.
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A BIG welcome, Xm4I.
O0
Nice to have an ex-muSSlim aboard.
I wonder if you could start a thread in the "Ask poster-show threads" section. I'm sure everyone would have lots of questions for you.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?board=74.0
Mine is..........How have you avoided the murder or physical attacks that other ex-muSSlims seem to get?
Once again, WELCOME. O0 O0
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Massuh indeed, All what muslims need is to step out of the mindset of a typical muslim filled with fear, hatred, and intolerance. Admitting Israel's right to exist would automatically follow.
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Ex Muslim 4 Israel, did your family also leave Islam? Have you received any death threats?
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shalom Newman, thank you. In response to your question, actually, not yet, I haven't received any, since it's all very "secret" at the moment, sure I'll be getting some once I go public. The mindset of a muslim now is all fixed on murder and killing, it's alll what they understand. and that's whast israel is giving them at the moment in Gaza, Muslim extermists and their mohammad well can kiss my boots. i'm 100 % sure of what I'm doing and what I want to be in the future. Israel is the center of the universe and the light for the whole world, and I'm proud to be the tiniest soldier at Israel's service.
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shalom Newman, thank you. In response to your question, actually, not yet, I haven't received any, since it's all very "secret" at the moment, sure I'll be getting some once I go public. The mindset of a muslim now is all fixed on murder and killing, it's alll what they understand. and that's whast israel is giving them at the moment in Gaza, Muslim extermists and their mohammad well can kiss my boots. i'm 100 % sure of what I'm doing and what I want to be in the future. Israel is the center of the universe and the light for the whole world, and I'm proud to be the tiniest soldier at Israel's service.
I wholeheartedly commend you for your decency and bravery, Ex'. But I urge you to take care. Don't shout your new awakening from the rooftops if it means your life. You're worth more to the world alive than dead. An isider could be a help to Israel's cause.
BTW,
Have you considered that you are probably of Phoenician blood more than arab..........not that it matters. The mid-east had many a great people and culture before the curse of iSSlam. The Phoenicians, Assyrians, Persians.................all of whom contributed to civilisation. I hope more can reject the cult of misery and death.
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You are right newman, don't worry, it's the first place in here where I write anything related to Israel. I know I'm living with barbaric criminals or (nazi terrorists, as Chaim calls them) so I'm very careful about what to say and when to say it.I'm even paranoid about it.
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You are right newman, don't worry, it's the first place in here where I write anything related to Israel. I know I'm living with barbaric criminals or (nazi terrorists, as Chaim calls them) so I'm very careful about what to say and when to say it.I'm even paranoid about it.
You're right to be.
Many arabs/Phoenicians came to the realisation their land was inhabited by savages and that their once great cultures were hijacked by a death cult. I don't know whether you're aware of Brigitte Gabriel, Walid Shoebat or Wafa sultan but here are their sites:
http://www.shoebat.com/
http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/profile.asp
http://www.wafasultan.org/
Use this forum and the web to speak out and have your say (you'll go nuts if you bottle it up), but exercise caution in the physical world until you can move to a place of safety.
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Welcome Ex. You're a shining example of the fact that being raised Muslim is no excuse to stay Muslim. It is within an Arab's power as a human being to reject this vile, barbaric religion. Therefore there should be no sympathy for those who remain Muslim, even if they are raised that way. Their conscience should eventually tell them differently.
Exactly, I personally have no sympathy whatever towards muslims anymore, who are a threat not only to Israel but to the whole free or simply non muslim world. They raise even their kids on hatred and terrorism and rejection of the others. There should be no morales whatesovere whilst fighting muslims, and all the "innocent civilian" crap must be abandoned by the IDf as well as US marines . Muslims, old or young, are dangerous. I know what I'm saying cos I've been there.
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Welcome Aboard Ex Muslim!
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You're right to be.
Many arabs/Phoenicians came to the realisation their land was inhabited by savages and that their once great cultures were hijacked by a death cult. I don't know whether you're aware of Brigitte Gabriel, Walid Shoebat or Wafa sultan but here are their sites:
Use this forum and the web to speak out and have your say (you'll go nuts if you bottle it up), but exercise caution in the physical world until you can move to a place of safety.
Sure I've known about these guys as I've contacted Shoebat's team also.
And you're absolutely right abut the culture. Beautiful and amazing cultures ruled this land before the pedophile sent his babaric armies to occupy this gorgeous part of the world and turn it to the [censored] hole it bacame. How I'd love to wake up one day to Islam completely disappearing from the middle east and the whole world.
Nobody deserves to be a muslim. lol.
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Welcome. :)
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You're right to be.
Many arabs/Phoenicians came to the realisation their land was inhabited by savages and that their once great cultures were hijacked by a death cult. I don't know whether you're aware of Brigitte Gabriel, Walid Shoebat or Wafa sultan but here are their sites:
Use this forum and the web to speak out and have your say (you'll go nuts if you bottle it up), but exercise caution in the physical world until you can move to a place of safety.
Sure I've known about these guys as I've contacted Shoebat's team also.
And you're absolutely right abut the culture. Beautiful and amazing cultures ruled this land before the pedophile sent his babaric armies to occupy this gorgeous part of the world and turn it to the excrement hole it bacame. How I'd love to wake up one day to Islam completely disappearing from the middle east and the whole world.
Nobody deserves to be a muslim. lol.
Religion is a personal thing. Politics is just lables.
I've found there are only two types of person. Those who believe in freedom and those who don't. Simple as that.
We have westerners who cannot tollerate personal freedom and choices and thus subscribe to an idea that a big government must become over-lords of the people and rule by force of legislation. These are what we call the 'left', 'communists', 'nazis' or 'liberals'.
I suspect that iSSlam appeals to a similar base mentallity. Having a bunch of mullahs dictate every aspect of ones existance relieves the stupid of the responsibility to think, choose and act.
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Welcome
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Right Newman, I blame the so called liberals for most of the atrocities the world has witnessed- through Islamic hands fo course. Liberals are as evil as suicide bombers. Not only commiting suicide alone but taking a whole lots of people with them.
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Right Newman, I blame the so called liberals for most of the atrocities the world has witnessed- through Islamic hands fo course. Liberals are as evil as suicide bombers. Not only commiting suicide alone but taking a whole lots of people with them.
Liberals are like AIDS.
People who die after being infected by AIDS don't actually die from it. They die from a common virus or infection that would never kill a non-infected person. AIDS is what enables common germs to kill. A germ is a would-be killer. AIDS is the enabler.
Similarly, a good, moral society would NEVER be remotely threatened by criminals or terrorists. Such a society would deal with those who threaten it in short order. But liberals are like the AIDS virus. They weaken a decent society's ability to combat the evils that threaten it. Liberalism is the enabler.
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Shalom Saleh,
You are a person of tremendous courage and I admire you. This has been one of the most moving threads I've read on this forum in a long time. Your life has been quite a remarkable journey and you're a living testament that we can all overcome unjustified hate. Welcome to the forum brother!
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Welcome to the forum, and may Hashem keep you safe.
Did you know of Yaakov Jaabari, he was a muslim who converted to Judaism and was actually a member of Kach under Rabbi Kahane zt'l
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wow that was a very long but very interesting thread i read the whole thing. respect to you for sharing this personal info. you should make speech and record it on audio. :o ??? :-\ ^-^ O0
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Now do you hate muslims?
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You validate our point that being anti Islamic is not rascist; A-rabs anf other A-rabised ME can abandon iSSlam and shud do this for their own good too; On the ather hand we have many persons in the west; "liberals", comies, nazim who side with them becouse they're evil too. Welcome on Board! O0
One question, Are you Israeli citisen or from Yesha? I don't want to know details which can endanger you; just curius if you was in IDF.
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Shalom Saleh,
You are a person of tremendous courage and I admire you. This has been one of the most moving threads I've read on this forum in a long time. Your life has been quite a remarkable journey and you're a living testament that we can all overcome unjustified hate. Welcome to the forum brother!
Shalom my friend. Thanks a lot for your words. I'm really very happy and excited for me finally taking the step and standing for what I believe in, and even connecting to you guys as right wing jews is really something very new to me. Jewish "Extremisism" is really the hope for the middle east and Israel against the Islamic radicalism which is taking all over the world. I could have connectyed with secular jews if I wanted to, yet I came here as i know where the solution lies. I'm breaking the taboos I've been brought to fear from all my life. The love for Israel brought us together.
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Welcome to the forum, and may Hashem keep you safe.
Did you know of Yaakov Jaabari, he was a muslim who converted to Judaism and was actually a member of Kach under Rabbi Kahane zt'l
Nope. Nver heard of him. I've looked his name on yahoo didn't find anything. I only know of Avraham Sinai, the ex Hizballah memner who is now ultra orthodox jew, and one other Iranian plane hijacker who converted to judaism too. Are there any more? please tell me about them. I'm really very Very intersted to hear about muslim converts to judaism. That is very inspiring to me.
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before i used to say, "a good muslim is a dead muslim" now i could say "a good muslim is a ex muslim"
welcome O0
you said you had some Jewish blood, who was Jewish
shalom, actually i didn't say I have jewish blood, I do belive that I might have soem jewish ancestry as I feel very "jewish" if you know what I mean. Maybe what you read is that I don't have jewish blood in my veins, but I'm super Israeli at heart. and I love everything about Israel, the country, the religion, the people, the army, the landscape, the histroy, everything. Israel really does rock my world.
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Now do you hate muslims?
Do I have to? Actually I hate islam,I despise muslim atrocities and fundemantilists. I even enjoy see them extrerminated by the Idf. And I really would find it strange that some jews or israelis feelspity for "innocent "casualties in recent IDF strikes. There's nothing called "innocent" in islamic socities. they are all in a battle against the whole world, and israel is on the front. Israel can do whatever it wants to protect its safety. and the muslims will soon reproduce again, no matter how many are killed. Don't worry about them.
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One question, Are you Israeli citisen or from Yesha? I don't want to know details which can endanger you; just curius if you was in IDF.
No no, I'm from outside Israel. I wish I could visit someday. And I'm not an IDf, what an honour that would be to be one.
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Now do you hate muslims?
Do I have to? Actually I hate islam,I despise muslim atrocities and fundemantilists. I even enjoy see them extrerminated by the Idf. And I really would find it strange that some jews or israelis feelspity for "innocent "casualties in recent IDF strikes. There's nothing called "innocent" in islamic socities. they are all in a battle against the whole world, and israel is on the front. Israel can do whatever it wants to protect its safety. and the muslims will soon reproduce again, no matter how many are killed. Don't worry about them.
I don't want you to hate them.
You said you left Islam because all they incited was hatred.......towards non-muslims. Now you've stepped over the bridge, to hate the muslims is hypocritical. You are doing the same thing vice-versa.
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Hating someone who wants to kill you is rational hating people for no reasons, as the Muslims do is evil.
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Welcome to the forum, Ex Muslim 4 Israel! We are very happy to have you as a member. May Hashem bless you!
I do have to say that the word "fundamentalist" has been hijacked. It simply means one that follows their religion according to what is written in their books. This term is used to 1) slam Christians and Jews who follow Hashem and 2) for apologist propaganda by the media as an excuse for islam. There are no "muslim moderates". A true muslims follow the koran and even the vast majority of muslims will agree with this.
Again, I am very glad to see you've joined our forum. Your words are a testimony and are inspiring.
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Hating someone who wants to kill you is rational hating people for no reasons, as the Muslims do is evil.
Well if you want to kill the muslims, then i guess they have a reason for hating you?
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thanks Shlomo, I agree with you about the "fundamentalist" thing. It used to be a positive term until the muslims glue it with terrorism and murder. One can be very fundemental and very friendly at the same time.
Again thank you for your nice words. My devotion and love for Israel is really very sincere and true. I just know where the truth is. Truth can never be eliminated or hidden. Like the logo in here says: (In your heart You know we're right). Long Live israel!
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Hating someone who wants to kill you is rational hating people for no reasons, as the Muslims do is evil.
Well if you want to kill the muslims, then i guess they have a reason for hating you?
sarah, Israel/the jews NEVER wanted to kill anybody. It was the same throughout histroy. They were always killed. They beared the pain and injustice and always were in a state in defense.: In historical israel, In the arab countries, In nazi germany, in Europe, in Spain. Jews are always in a state of self defense. On the contrary, and YES, muslims do hate israel and wants all jews to be killed, men, women, and children. Muslims cowardly send their terrorists dreaming about 72 virgins to blow his stinky body up innocent people in israel, even that he knows deep inside that he's killing innocent people. And the whole world now is angry about some kids killed in ISareli self defense raids against gaza strip. Typical.
I was a mulsim and I know how mulsim think. They love to see al jews killed. They celebrate when infidels are massacred. Don't expect the jews to love them at any time. The jews aren't that stupid anyway.
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Hating someone who wants to kill you is rational hating people for no reasons, as the Muslims do is evil.
Well if you want to kill the muslims, then i guess they have a reason for hating you?
By that logic the Nazis had a point, which is why you should realize how fallacious it is. Muslims are my fellow human beings, and if they would stop occupying my country and killing my mishpakha, I wouldnt have a problem with future muslims. But they have an ideology which calls for me to be killed or subjegated. I dont like either option, so I choose to hate and fight my enemies.
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Hating someone who wants to kill you is rational hating people for no reasons, as the Muslims do is evil.
Well if you want to kill the muslims, then i guess they have a reason for hating you?
By that logic the Nazis had a point, which is why you should realize how fallacious it is. Muslims are my fellow human beings, and if they would stop occupying my country and killing my mishpakha, I wouldnt have a problem with future muslims. But they have an ideology which calls for me to be killed or subjegated. I dont like either option, so I choose to hate and fight my enemies.
So a vicious circle of killing is created. The issues between muslims and Jews won't stop because, both say that the other wants to kill them and started it and so they have the right to kill the other, their enemy.
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Hating someone who wants to kill you is rational hating people for no reasons, as the Muslims do is evil.
Well if you want to kill the muslims, then i guess they have a reason for hating you?
By that logic the Nazis had a point, which is why you should realize how fallacious it is. Muslims are my fellow human beings, and if they would stop occupying my country and killing my mishpakha, I wouldnt have a problem with future muslims. But they have an ideology which calls for me to be killed or subjegated. I dont like either option, so I choose to hate and fight my enemies.
Jews don't started their religion by exterminating all men from muslime tribe, and enslaving their women. Mahomet did this in Medinah after the The battle of the trench IRC. How can you compare them, its' moral relativism.
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What men from what muslim tribe were exterminated? ???
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What men from what muslim tribe were exterminated? ???
The Mahomet exterminated Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe in Medinah:
Muhammad, the Qurayza Massacre, and PBS
By Andrew G. Bostom
FrontPageMagazine.com | Friday, December 20, 2002
"Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet", the pious, sanitized presentation of Muhammad's life which recently aired on the Public Broadcasting Station (PBS) network, included a discussion of the massacre of the Banu Qurayza, a Medinan Jewish tribe. This brutal massacre was justified in the PBS film by a highly edited amalgam of apologists and apologetics. Moreover, on the accompanying website a patently absurd modern Muslim interpretation (Muhammad Hamidullah, Muslim Conduct of State, Lahore, 1961, §443) was invoked suggesting the gruesome outcome may have resulted from the application of passages from Deuteronomy. It is critical that Muslims and non-Muslims alike consider seriously the implications of accepting at face value the apologetic PBS "analysis" of this massacre.
A consensus Muslim account of the massacre of the Qurayza has emerged as conveyed by classical Muslim scholars of hadith (sayings of Muhammad), biographer's of Muhammad's life (especially Ibn Ishaq), jurists, and historians. This narrative is summarized as follows. Alleged to have aided the forces of Muhammad's enemies in violation of a prior pact, the Qurayza were subsequently isolated and besieged. Twice the Qurayza made offers to surrender, and depart from their stronghold, leaving behind their land and property. Initially they requested to take one camel load of possessions per person, but when Muhammad refused this request, the Qurayza asked to be allowed to depart without any property, taking with them only their families. However, Muhammad insisted that the Qurayza surrender unconditionally and subject themselves to his judgment. Compelled to surrender, the Qurayza were lead to Medina. The men with their hands pinioned behind their backs, were put in a court, while the women and children were said to have been put into a separate court. A third (and final) appeal for leniency for the Qurayza was made to Muhammad by their tribal allies the Aus. Muhammad again declined, and instead he appointed as arbiter Sa’d Mu’adh from the Aus, who soon rendered his concise verdict: the men were to be put to death, the women and children sold into slavery, the spoils to be divided among the Muslims.
Muhammad ratified the judgment stating that Sa’d’s decree was a decree of God pronounced from above the Seven Heavens. Thus some 600 to 900 men from the Qurayza were lead on Muhammad’s order to the Market of Medina. Trenches were dug and the men were beheaded, and their decapitated corpses buried in the trenches while Muhammad watched in attendance. Male youths who had not reached puberty were spared. Women and children were sold into slavery, a number of them being distributed as gifts among Muhammad’s companions. According to Muhammad’s biographer Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad chose one of the Qurayza women (Rayhana) for himself. The Qurayza’s property and other possessions (including weapons) were also divided up as additional "booty" among the Muslims.
These events have been documented and interpreteted by both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars. As reported by the scholar M.J. Kister (Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam. Vol. 8: p.69, [1986]), al-Mawardi (d. 1072 C.E.), the eminent Muslim jurist from Baghdad, characterized the slaughter of the Qurayza as a religious duty incumbent on Muhammad. Professor Kister quotes al-Mawardi as follows: "…it was not permitted (for Muhammad) to forgive (in a case of ) God’s injunction incumbent upon them; he could only forgive (transgressions) in matters concerning his own person.". The notion that this slaughter was sanctioned by God as revealed to Muhammad was, according to Kister, reflective of "…the current (as of 1986) Sunni view about the slaughter of the Banu Qurayza." . This remains the orthodox Sunni view regarding the treatment of such prisoners as expressed in current versions of "Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law" from Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Accordingly, it is bizarre to suggest (as was done on the PBS website for station KQED) that "Deuteronomy" or any "sacred" law other than (nascent) Muslim law was applied in determining the fate of the Qurayza.
In the immediate aftermath of the massacre, the Muslims benefited substantially from the Qurayza’s assets which they seized as booty. The land and property acquired helped the Muslims gain their economic independence. The military strength of the Muslim community of Medina grew due to weapons taken, and the fact that captured women and children taken as slaves were sold for horses and more weapons, facilitating enlargement of the Muslim armed forces for further conquests. Conversely, the Jewish tribe of the Qurayza ceased to exist.
The sanitized PBS narration referring to this massacre omits the following details as chronicled consistently by Muslim sources: the arbiter (Sa’d Mu’adh) was appointed by Muhammad himself; Muhammad observed in person the horrific executions; Muhammad claimed as a wife a woman (Rayhana) previously married to one of the slaughtered Qurayza tribesmen; the substantial material benefits (i.e., property; receipts from the sale of the enslaved) which accrued to the Muslims as a result of the massacre; the extinction of the Qurayza. However, much more disturbing are the concluding narrator comments by Karen Armstrong and M. Cherif Bassiouni. Armstrong, brimming with her infamous apologetic zeal, has the temerity to claim: "…(the massacre) cannot be seen as anti-Semitism..Muhammad had nothing against the Jewish people …or the Jewish religion. The Koran continues to tell Muslims to honor the People of the Book."
In sharp contrast, a serious, respected scholar of anti-semitism, Professor Robert Wistrich, summarizes the overall Koranic image of the Jews as follows:
"..there are some notably harsh passages in which Muhammad brands the Jews as enemies of Islam and depicts them as possessing a malevolent, rebellious spirit. There are also verses that speak of their justified abasement and poverty, of the Jews being '..laden with God's anger..' for their disobedience. They had to be humiliated '..because they had disbelieved the signs of God and slain the prophets unrightfully..' (Sura 2:61/58). According to another verse (Sura 5:78/82), '..the unbelievers of the Children of Israel..' were cursed by both David and Jesus. The penalty for disbelief in God's signs and in the miracles performed by the prophets was to be transformed into apes and swine...(Sura 5:60/65)…The oral tradition (hadith) goes much further and claims that the Jews, in accordance with their perfidious nature, deliberately caused Muhammad's painful, protracted death from poisoning. Furthermore, malevolent, conspiratorial Jews are to blame for the sectarian strife in early Islam, for heresies and deviations that undermined or endangered the unity of the umma (the Muslim nations).."
Bassiouni engages in a frankly obscene moral equivalence assessing equal blame for the modern "transformation" of this event.
"…On the Jewish side, they have used that as a way of saying, well you see, the Muslims hate the Jews and they kill them. And the Muslim side, it says, well you see, the Jews are full of treachery and can't be trusted. Both are wrong."
Bassiouni's comments reflect a warped modern Muslim calculus devoid of any true empathy for the actual victims. Her remarks make one yearn desperately for the clear, timeless assessments of this massacre made long before the current era of politically correct apologism. For example, in his 1895 biography of Muhammad ("Mahomet and Islam", London, 1895, p. 151), which relied entirely on the original Muslim sources, the scholar Sir William Muir observed:
"The massacre of the Banu Coreiza was a barbarous deed which cannot be justified by any reason of political necessity…the indiscriminate slaughter of the whole tribe cannot be recognized otherwise than as an act of monstrous cruelty…"
The scholar Bat Ye'or summarized the impact of the first two centuries of Arab Muslim conquests (The Jerusalem Quarterly 1987; Vol. 42, Pp. 84-85) on indigenous Jews and Christians of the Middle East, as follows: "Muslim chroniclers described the ongoing jihad (holy war), involving the destruction of whole towns, the massacre of large numbers of their populations, the enslavement of women and children, and the confiscation of vast regions. This picture of catastrophe and destruction corresponds to the period of gradual erosion of Palestinian Jewry. According to [the Muslim chronicler] Baladhuri (d. 892 C.E.), 40,000 Jews lived in Caesarea alone at the Arab conquest, after which all trace of them is lost…". The 6 centuries between 640 and 1240 C.E., she further observes: ".. witnessed the total and definitive destruction of Judaism and Christianity in the Hijaz (modern Saudi Arabia), and the decline of once flourishing Christian and Jewish communities in Palestine (particularly in Galilee for the Jews), Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Persia. In North Africa, the Christians had been virtually eliminated by 1240 C.E., and the Jews decimated by Almohad persecutions… notwithstanding some brighter intervals, these six centuries witnessed a dramatic demographic reversal whereby the Arab-Muslim minority developed into a dominant majority, resorting to oppression in order to reduce the indigenous populations to tolerated religious minorities…"
Viewed from this overall historical perspective, the legacy of the Qurayza massacre resonates tragically, foreshadowing later Muslim conquests, massacres, and the imposition of more than a millennium of dhimmitude on subjugated Jews, Christians, and others. The sacralized PBS presentation of this massacre completely negated the suffering of its victims. Indeed the same disturbing, pious apologism has been employed to negate the suffering of all the millions of victims of genocidal jihad conquests during more than a millennium, from Portugal to Spain, and the Sudan to Hungary. This sacralized historical negationism must be confronted and exposed until it is renounced, and accompanied by a sincere display of empathy for the actual victims.
Andrew G. Bostom, MD, MS, is an Associate Professor of Medicine at Brown University Medical School.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=6DC07BEB-92CE-4500-8434-8204CA9522D4
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There was something called the Pact of Najran, at the time when the Christians of Medina were given protection by Muhammad, where there was a hadith of him saying: "Anyone who harms them (christian) it is as if he has harmed me."
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Maybe Yes, although this kind of protection is plain extorsion and racket, but this topic is about Jews and muslimes. NOT CHRISTIANS. My point is that Jews have good reasons to hate muslimes who wanted to kill or enslave them from the start.
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
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Shalom JTF people
I'm an ex muslim from Lebanon, 24 years old, I have left islam for good and all I want now is to really affiliate in pro Israel/zionist activities as I really wish (my dream,) is to convert to judaism soemday, I've been told I might have jewish blood so that I love israel and the jews so much. I've been visiting JTF's website and listening to my Hero Chaim religiously for over 2 years now, that's why I really confide in this place and certainly would love to connect with you all guys. I've wote down my personal testimony and I would love to share it with you all.
Shalom. As an Arab Muslim I once asked myself: Why do I hate Israel? I really thought about this question. After only a little deliberation the answer was clear, because I am a Muslim and Islam is extremely intolerant. It's the intolerance to everything non Muslim, that is the problem and I say this as a Muslim, but today I have rejected the teachings of Islam for this very reason. I have left Islam. As an Arab "PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi", living in an Arab country, coming from a Muslim family, I was brought up with the hatred of Jews, Christians, and all non Muslims. Now I'm 24, I have matured enough to view the world through a different perspective; I reviewed real history and studied the sequence of events before and since the restoration of the State of Israel. I decided to step outside the mindset of a typical Muslim. It didn't take long to realize that I was on the wrong track and I moved quickly to the other side. In order to be at peace with myself I have come to reject the hatred of Israel and now love my former enemy. I have not embraced another religion but I am seeking a new spiritual path.
Why do the Arabs and Muslims have to reject the presence of a Jewish state in a tiny percentage of the land of the Middle East? Why does Islamic intolerance forbid other nations their right to exist in their own land? The whole world should realize that Islam is at war with all nations on the planet. In our Muslim societies it is not "the extremists" but the whole society infected with this hatred. It is in the mosques, the schools, in the media and in the homes of nearly every Muslim family. It isn't just Israel they hate but America and Christians as well. Islam hates all other religions. In the case of Israel, its only fault is that it's a Jewish state who wants to live in peace within its borders. It's not a struggle of so called "PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis" to establish a country and retain some land, which was never theirs, I know because I studied the real history. The real problem is racism and the intolerance of Muslims, the blind hatred and jealousy to see a flourishing, strong and modern country where people from other faiths can live peacefully. Why are the Jews forbidden to have a country? These people have contributed much to the world's culture and offered the best scientists, artists, doctors and have been victims of intolerance throughout history? Why are they forbidden to live in their national Zionist dream and return to their homeland, which was some desert which they cultivated and transformed in to one of the most beautiful landscapes on earth? Why do the Arabs and the Muslim world have to take everything, and claim every land they step on to be theirs. "Eretz Yisrael" never existed, and should never, and that is coming from me an Arab who is classified as a "PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi." The creation of a PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi state would be the biggest threat to the existence of Israel and would not bring one day of peace to Israel; I know how my people think! By promoting such a state would be the equivalent of supporting the Nazis in their quest to destroy the Jews.
Israel has already made the mistake twice of giving land for peace, once in Southern Lebanon, and secondly in Gaza. We all know the terrible results: the expansion of Hizballah's power in Lebanon and the creation of a terrorist state in Gaza. Hamas and other terrorist organizations now have the space to launch more terrorist attacks and hostile activities on Israeli cities and villages.
Israel's right to exist shouldn't be open for discussion. Hamas, Hizballah or Islamic Jihad, and the people behind them, must be destroyed. Nothing should hinder Israel's army to do whatever it takes to protect their people and ensure the safety of Israel, from Tel Aviv, to the smallest settlement inside Israel which should include Judea and Samaria (the West Bank).
I don't blame the Israeli army for any defense measure it takes. It has been fighting Islamic terrorism long before any other nation has faced their atrocities. The Israeli soldiers have been on the front line on behalf of the whole free world. I am proud to support the Israeli defense forces, the most civilized and humane army in the world, no matter how the media might try to portray them. One can't but respect the brave Israeli army which puts its soldiers' lives at risk in order to protect civilian life in Gaza or Southern Lebanon, the same civilians whom in both places have voted terrorist organizations to power. The same "innocent civilians" which deny Israel's right to exist, who never are held accountable for the democratic choices they have made. Yet still, the Israeli army, and in the most critical war times, try as much as possible to avoid harming their lives, even at the expense of losing lives on their side as well as tactical and strategic disadvantages because of their moral behavior. I salute the Israeli army; I can't but support these heroes, and bow in respect to the memory of their fallen ones. I can't but stand with Israel in its fight for its existence amid this crazy part of the world.
I used to hate Israel with a passion but today I am proud to say that I have shed my hatred for Israel and it has transformed to a deep love, passion, and respect for Zionism and all the values it stands for.
I am proud that today I support the full restoration of Jerusalem. For the first time in my life I'm at peace with myself and in great harmony of what I believe in; standing with Israel and the Jewish people, who are the most forgiving and tolerant people on earth. They must be praised for their deep dedication to their cause, and for their patience in their endurance of harm and hatred.
Jerusalem should never be divided and soon the Temple Mount should also be liberated. All other religious groups in the world have free access to their most sacred sites yet the Jews still watch their holiest place, Solomon's Temple, under occupation. I can't but feel compassionate with their dream, and I know that their fight is now my fight.
Israel's existence and survival is really a test and responsibility for the whole civilized world. It's the battle against Islam's imperial quest to conquer the whole world. Israel is the fortress and stronghold for freedom and tolerance in the Middle East, the frontline on the world’s war against the tyranny of Islam.
I have held my tongue for too long but today a great burden has been lifted from my heart. I don't care if I've been considered a traitor by my people for loving Israel. It's an honor for me; if supporting Israel's right to exist is a sin then I'm a sinner. I'm proud to be an Arab who stands with a country that should be emulated by all its neighbors. For the sake of its people and for the sake of the world's stability and freedom, I'm proud to say I love Israel. I know that even if I don't have Jewish blood in my veins, I know I am Israeli at heart. Long live Israel!
Welcome aboard. G-d willing, Israel will finally liberate all its lands from the Koranimals.... Sadly, however, I feel this "operation" is simply a ploy to bolster Olmerts 3% supporting government when he and his party should have been arrested, tried for treason and.....Guilty...like some other leaders of our times... :'(
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welcome!
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
You are starting to sound like the CNN Nazis who use the phrase "cycle of violence".
In a way Sarah is right. Violence creates more violence. The so-calles ME-conflict is a vicious circle. Action and reaction.
The biggest problem are the Israeli themselves , who refuse to use their military power to expel all the arabs out of the land of Israel.
You can't blame the Arabs from fighting you, if you don't take the necessary action to stop them. Right now they are on the winning hand, because they will outbreed the Jews in Israel, unless somebody stops them.
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
You are starting to sound like the CNN Nazis who use the phrase "cycle of violence".
L'Havdil!
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.
It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.
It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.
you make a good point about not attacking hitler to avoid this vicious circle.
However, Christianity is sometimes a religion of conquest also.
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.
It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.
you make a good point about not attacking hitler to avoid this vicious circle.
However, Christianity is sometimes a religion of conquest also.
It WAS but no longer is.
If iSSlam has a reformation like christianity did, it may survive.
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
You still don't get it' If the Arabs will lay down their arms there'll be a peace in ME, If the Jews will surrender there'll be no Israel and no living Jews in ME. HAMAS is preaching the new Jihaad to reconquer Spain, after they'll finish up with the "Zionists"; only leftist idiots and nazi rascals in Europe don't support Israel.
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.
It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.
you make a good point about not attacking hitler to avoid this vicious circle.
However, Christianity is sometimes a religion of conquest also.
Crusades were not about conquest it was action aimed at liberating the lands conquered by first Jihaad, bolstering Bizantium and helping local christians persecuted by muslims, even European colonisation of XVI-XIX century was more about gaining gold, spices and indutrial resources than evangelising. During the first three centuries christianity was spreading peacfully despite bloody roman prosecutions; during the first three centuries moslems conquered by sword the land from Spain to India. And they not changed at all. On all borders of Dar al islam therer is the bloody war now.
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.
It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.
you make a good point about not attacking hitler to avoid this vicious circle.
However, Christianity is sometimes a religion of conquest also.
Crusades were not about conquest it was action aimed at liberating the lands conquered by first Jihaad, bolstering Bizantium and helping local christians persecuted by muslims, even European colonisation of XVI-XIX century was more about gaining gold, spices and indutrial resources than evangelising. During the first three centuries christianity was spreading peacfully despite bloody roman prosecutions; during the first three centuries moslems conquered by sword the land from Spain to India. And they not changed at all. On all borders of Dar al islam therer is the bloody war now.
Perphaps but the Crusaders killed many Jews as they traveled to Jerusalem
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Shalom, Ex-Muslim, if you have no religion now and seek a spiritual path, then the best for you is to be a Noachide. The Torah, unlike religions, does not demand a non-Jew to become a Jew in order to save his soul. Jewish observance is only binding for those who were born Jewish or have converted. Other Nations only need to keep the Seven Noachide Laws. You can learn about the Noachide Laws in most sites, and a Rav here, can also explain it to you
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Perphaps but the Crusaders killed many Jews as they traveled to Jerusalem
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That's right it was stain on shield and pope apologised for this; but that was not oficial goal of crusades, unlike the Jihad. Antisemitism in church was aberation made from jelousy towards Jews as Bible chosen nation; the church leadership wanted all blessing G-d gave Israel on themselfs, and all curses to be on Jews. It's called replecment theology. I have good good articles on the topic was crusades can't be compared to Jihaad:
THE CRUSADES AND JIHAD
Back in 1999 while our mission was being bombed by the National Islamic Front government in Sudan, fellow missionaries were organising “Reconciliation Walks” to the Middle East to apologise for “The Crusades”. At the time, as our church services were under aerial and artillery bombardment by Jihadists, it seemed rather bizarre. Therefore I undertook a study of the crusades and Jihad.
Anin Maalouf in “The Crusades through Arab eyes” claims that the Crusaders conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 was “The starting point of a millennial hostility between Islam and the West.” Islamic scholar John Esposito blames the Crusades for disrupting “Five centuries of peaceful coexistence elapsed before political events and an imperial papal power-play led to a centuries long series of so called Holy Wars that pitted Christendom against Islam and left an enduring legacy of misunderstanding and distrust.” (“Islam: The Straight Path” OUP).
What Preceeded The Crusades?
However the Crusades only started after five centuries of Islamic Jihad had conquered and annihilated, or forcibly converted, over two thirds of what had formerly been the Christian world. Shortly after the Islamic conquest of Jerusalem, in 638, Christian pilgrims were harassed, massacred, and early in the 8th Century, 60 Christian pilgrims from Amoriem were crucified.
The Muslim governor of Caesarea seized a group of pilgrims from Iconium and had them all executed. Muslims extorted ransom money from Pilgrims, and threatened to ransack the most holy churches in Christendom such as the Church of the Resurrection - if they didn’t pay exorbitant taxes. In the 8th Century a Muslim ruler banned all displays of the Cross in Jerusalem. He also increased the penalty tax (Jizya) and forbad Christians to engage in any religious instruction, even of their own children! In 772, the Calipha al Mansur ordered the hands of all Christians and Jews in Jerusalem to be branded.
In 789, Muslims beheaded a monk in Bethlehem, plundering the monastery and slaughtering many more Christians. In 923, a new wave of destruction of churches was launched by the Muslim rulers. In 937, Muslims went on a rampage in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday plundering and destroying the Church of Calvary and the Church of the Resurrection.
In 1004 the Fatimid Calipha Abu Ali al–Mansur al–Hakim unleashed a violent wave of church burning and destruction, confiscation of Christian property, and ferocious slaughter of both Christians and Jews. Over the next ten years, thirty thousand churches were destroyed and vast numbers of Believers were forcibly converted or killed.
In 1009, Al-Hakim ordered that the most holy churches in Christendom – the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem - be destroyed. He heaped humiliating and burdensome decrees upon Christians and Jews forcing Christians to wear heavy crosses around their necks, and Jews to have blocks of wood in the shape of a calf around their necks. Ultimately, he ordered Christians and Jews to either accept Islam or flee his areas of control.
Christians remained in a precarious position and under threat throughout the Middle East. When the Seljuk Turks swept into Jerusalem in 1077 they murdered over three thousand people, including many Christians. It was at this point that the Christian Emperor of Byzantium, Alexius I, appealed for help to the Western churches.
Pope Urban II challenged the knights of Europe at the Council of Clermont in 1095: “The Turks and Arabs have attacked our brethren in the East and have conquered the territory of Romania (the Greek Empire) as far as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont…have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many and have destroyed the churches and devastated the Empire. If you continue to permit them to continue thus for a while with impunity, the faithful of G-d will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I…persuade all people of whatever rank, foot soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians…”
Nowhere was the call for the launch of the Crusades talking about either conquest or conversion, they were merely to remove the Islamic invaders from the lands that had previously been Christian, to restore religious freedom to the Holy Lands.
Myths And Misconceptions
The politically correct dogma that the Crusades were unprovoked, imperialist actions against the peaceful, indigenous Muslim population is simply not accurate. Such propaganda reflects a hostility for Western civilization, and often against Christianity itself, rather than any actual historical research.
Similarly, the characterization of the Crusaders as greedy for loot, only out for personal gain, is simply out of touch with reality. Those who participated in the Crusades saw it as an act of sacrifice rather than of profit. The Crusades were in fact prohibitivly expensive. Many Crusaders had to sell their property to raise money for the long journey to the Holy Land and knew that their chances of returning alive were slight. Most who did manage to survive and return came back with nothing material to show for their efforts.
Similarly the modern PC myth that the Crusaders attempted to forcibly convert Muslims to Christianity is a politically motivated fantasy. Search as one might through the writings and records of the Crusaders, one will not find any mention of Crusaders seeking to convert the Sarracens or the Turks. The Crusaders saw themselves as Pilgrims seeking to recapture and liberate Christian lands from vicious invaders.
Even Maalouf in The Crusades Through Arab Eyes, reports the observations of Spanish Muslim Ibn Jubayr who traversed the Mediterranean on his way to Mecca in the early 1180’s and found that the Muslims were far better off in those lands controlled by the Crusaders than they were in Muslim ruled lands. And that Muslims preferred to live in the Crusader realms as those lands were more orderly and better managed.
Ibn Jubayr wrote: “Whose lands were efficiently cultivated. The inhabitants were all Muslims. They live in comfort with the Franks – may G-d preserve them from temptation! Their dwellings belong to them and all their property is unmolested. All their regions, patrolled by the Crusaders in Syria are subject to the same system: The land that remains, the villages and farms, have remained in the hands of the Muslims. Now, doubt invests the hearts of a great number of these men when they compare their lot to that of their brothers living in Muslim territories. Indeed, the latter suffer from the injustices of their co-religionists, whereas the Franks act with equity.”
The Crusades have often been portrayed as European Colonialism, but the Crusader states were not ruled from Western Europe. The governments they established did not answer to any Western power. Nor did the Crusader rulers siphon off the wealth of their lands and send it back to Europe. No streams of settlers came from Europe to settle in these states, which were established only in order to provide permanent protection for Christians in the Holy Land.
The Merciful Saladin
The presentation of Muslim commanders such as Saladin as merciful and magnanimous is a myth. When Saladin captured the Crusaders at Hattim on 4 July 1187, he ordered the mass execution of all the Christians: “They should be beheaded in accordance with Quran 47:4 ‘When you meet the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike their necks’” Saladin’s secretary Imad reported, “With him were a whole band of scholars and Sufis and a certain number of devout men and aesthetics; each begged to be allowed to kill one of them and drew their swords and rolled back their sleeves. Saladin, his face joyful, was sitting on his dais; the unbelievers showed black despair.”
In 1148, the Muslim Commander Nur ed–Din ordered the slaughter of every Christian in Aleppo.
In 1268, when Mamluk Sultan Baybars seized Antioch, he ensured that all the men were slaughtered, the women sold into slavery, the crosses in every church smashed, the Bibles torn and burned, the graves of Christians desecrated, every monk, priest and deacon was dragged to the altar and had their throats slit where a mass had previously been celebrated, the Church of Saint Paul and the Cathedral of Saint Peter were destroyed and the bodies of the Christians burned.
When on 29 May 1453, the greatest city in the world of that time, Constantinople, was conquered by the Jihadists, the Muslims “slew everyone that they met in the streets, men, women and children without discrimination. The blood ran in rivers down the steep streets from the heights of Petra toward the golden horn”. The Muslim soldiers even entered the Hagia Sophia, and slaughtered thousands of Christians worshipping in what was then the largest church in the world at that time.
What Did The Crusades Achieve?
The Crusades bought Europe time. From the first century of Islam Muslim armies were invading Europe. Spain suffered under Islamic occupation for 8 centuries. In the 14th Century, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Albania and Croatia fell to Muslim invasions.
In 1426 the Egyptian Mukluks conquered Cyprus. In 1395 the Muslims conquered Nicopolis on the Danube River. In 1444 the Muslim armies seized Varna in Hungary. In 1456 the Turks besieged Belgrade, and even tried to conquer Rome, but were thrown back. The Muslims first attempted to seize Vienna in 1529. As late as 11 September 1683 Muslim armies besieged Vienna, but were routed by 30 000 Polish Hussars (cavalrymen) led by Poland’s King Jan III Sobieski.
Were The Crusades A Failure?
The constant depiction of the Crusades as a failure is not justified by the historical record. The Crusades succeeded in seizing the initiative, throwing the Muslim invaders onto the defensive, for the first time after five centuries of attack. The Crusaders bought Europe time – centuries in fact.
At a critical time, the Crusades united a divided Europe, and threw the Muslim invaders back, bringing a peace and security to Europe that had not been known for centuries. As a result of the tremendous sacrifices of the Crusaders, Christian Europe experienced Spiritual Revival and Biblical Reformation which inspired a great resurgence of learning, scientific experimentation, technological advancement, and movements that led to greater prosperity and freedoms than had ever been known in all of history.
For a picture of what Europe might be like today had Islam succeeded in conquering it, one can look at the previously Christian civilisations of Egypt and what is today called Turkey. The Copts in Egypt now make up just 10% of the total Egyptian population, and are severely oppressed. What is today called Turkey was once the vibrant Christian Byzantine Empire, the economic and military superpower of its day. Today the Christian civilization which had flourished there for a thousand years has all but been extinguished. The last Christian city in Asia, Smyrna, was massacred by the Turkish Army in 1922.
The classic Hollywood version of the Crusades as depicted in the $150 million Kingdom of Heaven epic was produced in consultation with groups such as the Council on American – Islamic Relations.
Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith, author of A Short History of The Crusades described the film as “Rubbish!…it’s not historically accurate at all…it depicts the Muslims as sophisticated and civilized and the Crusaders are all brutes and barbarians. It has nothing to do with reality.”
Without the Crusades it is questionable whether Europe or American would even exist.
The Crusades ended over 700 years ago. Islamic Jihad continues to this day.
The popular misconceptions about the crusades are that these were aggressive wars of expansion fought by religious fanatics in order to evict Muslims from their homeland, and force conversions to Christianity. However the historical record does not support those assertions.
A Reaction To Jihad
The crusaders were reacting to over four centuries of relentless Islamic Jihad, which had wiped out over 50% of all the Christians in the world and conquered over 60% of all the Christian lands on earth – before the crusades even began . Many of the towns liberated by the crusaders were still over 90% Christian when the crusaders arrived. The Middle East was the birthplace of the Christian Church. It was the Christians who had been conquered and oppressed by the Seljuk Turks. So many of the towns in the Middle East welcomed the crusaders as liberators.
Far from the crusaders being the aggressors, it was the Muslim armies which had spread Islam from Saudi Arabia across the whole of Christian North Africa into Spain and even France within the first century after the death of Muhammad. Muslim armies sacked and slaughtered their way across some of the greatest Christian cities in the world, including Alexandria, Carthage, Antioch and Constantinople. These Muslim invaders destroyed over 3,200 Christian churches just in the first 100 years of Islam.
Defensive Wars
As Professor Thomas Madden in The Real History of the Crusades points out: “The crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression – an attempt to turn back, or defend against, Muslim conquests of Christian lands. Christians in the 11th Century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them…Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Muhammad, the means of Muslim expansion was always by the sword…Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth…The Christian world therefore was a prime target for the earliest Caliphas and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years…The crusades…were but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured over two thirds of the Christian world.” Without the Crusades it is questionable whether Europe or America would even exist.
Thinking The Unthinkable
As the London Telegraph pointed out: “A more realistic view of history requires less retrospective fantasy and more brain work. It means forcing your head around to see what motivated men and women centuries ago. Try to think the unthinkable – that the Crusaders were right, and that we should be grateful to them.”
Christian Love And Self Sacrifice
Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith explains that crusading was “an act of love” for one’s neighbour. An act of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As one church leader wrote to the Knights Templar: “You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, ‘greater love than this hath no man, than that he lay down his life for his friends’.”
Professor Riley-Smith points out that the goals of the crusades were firstly to rescue the Christians of the East: “Many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims and tortured with innumerable torments.” And secondly the liberation of Jerusalem and other places made holy by the life of Christ.
The Medieval crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, restoring to the Lord Jesus Christ His property. “The Crusaders conquest of Jerusalem, therefore, was not colonialism, but an act of restoration and an open declaration of one’s love of G-d…It is often assumed that the central goal of the crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of Medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders’ task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in crusader won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood and always their religion.”
Against All Odds
When we think about the Middle Ages, we inevitably view Europe in the light of what it became rather than what it was. The fact is that the superpower of the Medieval world was Islam, not Christendom. The crusades were a battle against all odds with impossibly long lines of supply and cripplingly inadequate logistics. It was a David against Goliath enterprise from the beginning. The chances of success for the first crusade were highly improbable. They had no leader, no chain of command, no supply lines and no detailed strategy. The first crusade consisted simply of thousands of dedicated warriors marching deep into enemy territory, thousands of kilometres from home. Many of them died of starvation, disease and wounds. It was a rough campaign that always was on the brink of disaster .
“Yet it was miraculously successful. By 1098, the Crusaders had liberated Nicea and Antioch to Christian rule. And in July 1099 they re-conquered Jerusalem and began to rebuild a Christian state in Eretz Yisrael.”
A Judgement Of G-d
When Jerusalem fell to Saladin in 1187, Christians across Europe perceived that G-d was punishing them for their sins. Numerous lay movements sprang up throughout Europe dedicated to purifying Christian society so that it may become worthy of victory in the East.
Professor Madden, of St. Lewis University and the author of A Concise History of the Crusades, has observed: “From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. But we should be mindful that our Medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the names of political ideologies…Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the crusades, it might have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam’s rivals, into extinction.” But for the crusades Europe would have probably fallen to Islam and the USA would never have come into existence.
Learn To Discern
Dr. Ted Baehr of Movieguide warns viewers to be “media wise enough to reject revisionist history” such as the Kingdom of Heaven. “ The problem is that the future generations could accept this politically correct, anti-Christian propaganda.”
The Facts of History
The fact is that the crusades of the Middle Ages were a reaction to centuries of Islamic Jihad. In the first century of Islam alone Muslim invaders conquered the whole of the previously Christian North Africa destroying over 3200 churches – in just 100 years. In the first five centuries of Islam, Muslim forces killed Christians, kidnapped their children to raise them as Muslims, or compelled people at the point of the sword to convert to Islam . Up to 50% of all the Christians in the world were wiped out during the first three centuries of Islam. The Saracens (as the Muslim invaders were called) desecrated Christian places of worship and were severely persecuting Christians. Pilgrims were then prevented from visiting those places where our Lord was born, was crucified and raised from the dead. It was only after four centuries of Islamic Jihad that the crusades were launched as a belated reaction to the blatant Islamic Jihad.
Logistics and Economics
As the Christian History Institute has pointed out, the characterising of crusaders as only in it for the plunder and the loot betrays an ignorance of both geography and history. The vast majority of the crusaders were impoverished and financially ruined by the crusades. Crusaders, through great sacrifice and personal expense, left their homes and families to travel 3000km across treacherous and inhospitable terrain – and the shortest crusade lasted 4 years. Considering that only 10% of the crusaders had horses, and 90% were foot soldiers, the sheer fact of logistics is that the crusaders could not possibly have carried back enough loot to have made up for the loss of earnings and high expenses involved with these long crusades. Many crusaders lost their homes and farms to finance their involvement in the crusades.
There’s More to Life than Money
Perhaps self-seeking materialistic agnostics in the 21st Century cannot understand that some people could be motivated by something other than personal financial enrichment, but the fact is that many people make sacrifices for their religious convictions, and in order to help others. In the case of the crusaders, the historical record makes clear that amongst the motivations that led tens of thousands of volunteers to reclaim the Holy Land was a sense of Christian duty to help their fellow Christians in the East whose lands have been invaded and churches desecrated by Muslim armies, and a desire to secure access to the Holy Lands for pilgrims. There was also a desire to fight for the honour of their Lord Jesus Christ, Whose churches had been destroyed and Whose Deity had been denied by the Mohammadan aggressors. In other words, to the crusaders this was a defensive war to reclaim Christian lands from Muslim invaders.
We may not share their convictions, or agree with their methods, but we ought to evaluate them in the light of the realities of the 11th and 12th centuries, and not anachronistically project our standards and politics back upon them.
The Missing Jihad
Scriptwriter William Monahan, and Director Ridley Scott, obviously don’t understand the motivations behind the crusaders, and apparently they do not understand the Islamic doctrine of Jihad either – which the film makes no reference to. Considering that Jihad was the central threat that had lead to the reaction of the crusades, this omission is inexplicable. Kingdom of Heaven preoccupies itself with fictionalising crusader atrocities, but it ignores the pattern of the preceeding five centuries of genocide and aggression by Islamic armies. For those wanting the politically incorrect rest of the story which Kingdom of Heaven does not even hint of, you would want to read Slavery, Terrorism & Islam – The Historical Roots & Contemporary Threat.
Scott’s Kingdom of Heaven is politically correct, anti-Christian, pro-Muslim propaganda. It makes poor entertainment and is a worthless distortion of reality.
MOHAMMED VS CHRIST
In his article “Self Hate, Revisionist History and Christophobia in the movie Kingdom of Heaven” Dr. Ted Baehr notes some of the differences between Mohammed and Christ:
“Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).
Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith; Christ's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Tim. 4:7).
Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels"; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Tim. 1:13-15).
Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ is the giver of life (John 10:27-28).
Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (John 12:48).
Mohammed ’s method was COMPULSION; Christ’s aim was CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).
Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29, 35).
Mohammed was a WARRIOR; Christ is a DELIVERER (Col. 1:13; 1 Thess. 1:10).
Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!"; Christ said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).
Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Rom. 3:15-17); Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Eph. 1:7).
Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!"; Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).
Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Col. 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).
Mohammed constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love (2 Cor. 5:14).
Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his G-d; Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9).
Modern day disciples of Mohammed respond to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets; modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were "Christians" in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).
Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder; many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Rom. 12:17-21).
Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . . but now is My kingdom not from here" (John 18:36)
Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A.Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369); Christ ordered that the Gospel be preached "to the Jew first" (Rom. 1:16).
The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5); Christ said, "Preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).
Mohammed's mission was to conquer the world for Allah; Christ's mission was to conquer sin's penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18).
Mohammed claimed that there was but one G-d, Allah; Christ claimed that He was G-d (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).
Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED! Christ's tomb: EMPTY! ”
JIHAD VS THE GOSPEL
The word “crusade” does not appear in the Bible, nor is it commanded in Christianity. However, Jihad is the sixth pillar of Islam and the second greatest command of Muhammad. It is not only commended, but commanded in the Quran.
The crusades ended many centuries ago. However Islamic Jihad is carried out to this day. Millions of Christians have been slaughtered throughout the centuries by Islamic militants – such as the 1.5 million Armenians murdered in Turkey in 1915. Christians have continued to be slaughtered by Islamic militants in Indonesia, the Philippines, Sudan and Nigeria to the present day.
Therefore, before Christians fall over themselves to apologise for the crusades, which ended over 700 years ago, it would be wise to first learn from reliable sources what the crusades were all about, and study the Islamic teachings and track record of Jihad over the last 14 centuries . “Slavery, Terrorism and Islam – The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat” would provide a good introduction. Those who do not know their past have no future.
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/JihadAndCrusades.htm
Sorry for including NT quotes, but it's important to know what is diffrence beetween Islamism and Christianism, especialy when muslimes on one hand call to Jihad against "Zionsts and Crusaders", and for the other bash crusades for being agression against "peacefull" Islam. They do this against Jewish reclamation of Israel too called it naqba and western colonialism.
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Very good post UR. Christianity was an ideology used as a tool by corrupt and power hungry kings, emperors and popes. Most of the "missionaries" were actaully massacred in many lands when attempting to pros'ize to the pagans: Japan and China for example. Of course there are historical realities of tragic wars in the name of "Christianity" but most were European between pagan and Christian/Catholics or Christian/Christian...aside from the Nazis and Cortez's venture into Mexico. Then again, who'd want to really live in a society of cannibalism, human sacrifices and caste like lives? The Crusades were a reaction to the expansion of the Koranimals encrouching on Christian boarders. "Jihad" had been on going and expanding Islam from Spain to Asia for 400 years prior to the Crusades...
Yacov...I've been questioning and saying the like for a very long time now...... "So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end." ??? I'm not even going to entertain such ignorace, closed mindedness and in my opinion Koranimalist deception....
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Now do you hate muslims?
Do I have to? Actually I hate islam,I despise muslim atrocities and fundemantilists. I even enjoy see them extrerminated by the Idf. And I really would find it strange that some jews or israelis feelspity for "innocent "casualties in recent IDF strikes. There's nothing called "innocent" in islamic socities. they are all in a battle against the whole world, and israel is on the front. Israel can do whatever it wants to protect its safety. and the muslims will soon reproduce again, no matter how many are killed. Don't worry about them.
Just so you know. Sarah is 15 year old, from britain, brought up as a muslim.. For a moment she left it and became a kahanist. Then she seemed to go back to it and refused to deny it, and then she admitted some fallacies of its "claims to be true". She seems to be on the fence with islam, and she goes to a muslim school. And she has sympathised alot with "innocent" people israel kills e.g. rachel corrie, even saying it is wrong/immoral.
Just so you know!!
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No worries qq. ;) Sarah has been here for a very long time now....
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No worries qq. ;) Sarah has been here for a very long time now....
My comment (that sarah is in a muslim school and the rest ) was for our new comrade from lebanon. (the one that started the thread, and the one I quoted!)
I would have written it anyway, but it was all the more important in light of sarah`s posts and his response to them.
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You see what Chaim has been saying about everyone having free will...
this is an example of that and it just shows that JTF can appeal to even "past muslims"
You are most welcome ex-muslim and we hope you remain active on our forum.
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So the muslims started it according to you, and the Jews are finishing it by fighting back. It is still a vicious circle, that will not end.
That's a stupid mentallity. By your reasoning nobody should have fought hitler (YS) so they could avoid the 'cycle of violence'.
It is iSSlam that demand world domination, not Judaism or christianity. It is iSSlam that initiates terror, not Judaism or christianity. The cycle will end when the evil of iSSlam is defeated.
No, No. I didn't suggest that one side has to stop fighting in order to break whatever cycle. I don't think that is possible, because both sides one to win.
It'll just take the more powerful side to completely prevent and stop the other from continuing the cucle.
I'm not even going to entertain such ignorace, closed mindedness and in my opinion Koranimalist deception...
I don't get it, what I said makes sense. ???
Both the Jews and muslims will continue fighting, non-stop. Kabilov said the muslims started it and the Jews are fighting back. I just reiterated it.
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I agree with you Sara I think the more powerfull side the Fakestinians, their A-rab pupet masters from Saudi Arabia and Syria, iSSlamists from non A-rab muslime ocupied countries like Iran or Pakistan , and their nazi and leftist apologist from the west shud stop their agression against tiny Jewish state, and other non muslimes in ME and whole world. I do hope that you meant it. ;)
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I agree with you Sara I think the more powerfull side the Fakestinians, their A-rab pupet masters from Saudi Arabia and Syria, iSSlamists from non A-rab muslime ocupied countries like Iran or Pakistan , and their nazi and leftist apologist from the west shud stop their agression against tiny Jewish state, and other non muslimes in ME and whole world. I do hope that you meant it. ;)
Not really. I didn't take sides, or say which one is more powerful. Over different time periods, the Jews have won wars....and other times the Arabs have too.
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I was woried you'll tell some thing like this... Well atleast you don't apologise sodomite perverersion. ::)
Israel never won its wars becouse the Jews were more military powerfull than A-rabs, quite the oposite; the more important thing is that A-rabs were always the agressive side, Israel trying to stop the circle of violence will get all its Jewish citisens sloughtered. Middle East is not Middle West.
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Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...along with being united where the Arabs were not.
I understand why Israel cannot and will not stop fighting.
Though I understand from the prolonged fighting how the Arabs cannot back out either, they have been commanded to fight for their land and at the same time don't want to back down.
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Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...along with being united where the Arabs were not.
I understand why Israel cannot and will not stop fighting.
Though I understand from the prolonged fighting how the Arabs cannot back out either, they have been commanded to fight for their land and at the same time don't want to back down.
If the arabs put down their weapons there would be peace.
If the jews in israel put down their weapons. Then as you admit, the arabs would attempt to kill us all there. (And rape the women no doubt)
That is one fairly strong moral argument to take Israel`s side.
Moreso if you are talking about the problem that israel has to fight and that the arabs fight. And saying "therefore" you do not take sides.
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If the Arabs put down their weapons, Israel would want to expand it's borders wouldn't it?
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If the Arabs put down their weapons, Israel would want to expand it's borders wouldn't it?
no.
Right wing jews would, but only to the jordan river to get the west bank. Which Israel had anyway after the 1967 war but gave back . And of course that area has the holiest jewish site (as holy to jews as the kabba is to muslims).
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and of course since we are told they are occupied anyway, it wouldn`t really be expansion!!
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Sarah, are you for real? Why do you totally dismiss out of hand the realities on the ground? Think for one minute and ask yourself how Islam became the dominant "religion" from Spain to Asia and that "Jihad" had been practiced (and still is) 4 centuries prior to the crusades?
Come on....really.
PS: Israel should NEVER have given one inch of land after the 6 Day War....further it should have expelled its Koranimal populous "thorn" from within its midst.
PPS: Would Israel want to "expand"? Only to its mandated borders of the Balfaur Declaration or that of 1923: the first "two state solution". Personally, I'd prefer the post '67 borders. Perhaps if Israel did expand its boarders there might be a relative peace as Israel is a much more peaceful entity than all 60+ Islamosavage dictatorial regimes are put together... ;)
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I love your post mazutra, you always have this big picture. I got few links for Sarah on what ME is about; It not about Israel and "zionists" only:
http://www.peacefaq.com/palestinians.html#arethe
http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html
http://www.peacefaq.com/lebanon.html
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GjApOeWHtv4C&pg=PA8&dq=crusader+state&sig=22l1BbBFqvB6nexTr7wmZFTF9h8#PPP1,M1
http://phoenicia.org/maronites.html
Someone who wants to feed the iSSlamic crocodile with Israel, like EU or USA ruling elites will have very unpleasent suprise; and everybody will have to choose sides soon.
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Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...
That's not true at all.
In 1947/48 the Jews had ZERO experience at fighting. Most of the Jews were half-starved survivors from hitler's (YS) camps. They were a bunch of tradesmen, teachers and accountants turned farmers turned soldiers.
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Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...
That's not true at all.
In 1947/48 the Jews had ZERO experience at fighting. Most of the Jews were half-starved survivors from hitler's (YS) camps. They were a bunch of tradesmen, teachers and accountants turned farmers turned soldiers.
Some Jews were veterans of WWII, and the Etzel and Lehi had been fighting the British for years, though we were wildly outnumbered with no formal army and few weapons.
What is not well known even among Jews is that in the war of independence the British fought with the Arabs, keep in mind the British still had their empire and an incredibly poweful army that had just won WWII.
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I suggest reading "A will to survive" by John Phillips to get an idea of the British actions during the '48 War and their heading the Jordanian Army. A very good coffee table book with fabulous photos, first hand accounts and knowledged research. O0
(http://pictures.abebooks.com/MASONFINEBOOKS/67069932.jpg)
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Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...
That's not true at all.
In 1947/48 the Jews had ZERO experience at fighting. Most of the Jews were half-starved survivors from hitler's (YS) camps. They were a bunch of tradesmen, teachers and accountants turned farmers turned soldiers.
NO WAY! The Irgun and Stern has some of the most experienced fighters ever. I think i read somewhere that all the young men had to go through training courses as well.
The arabs were by far less experienced or organised when it came to fighting.
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It is true that the Jewish fighters, including the Socialist rot: Hagganah, were very well trained, organized but not nearly as armed and outfitted as the Arabs. King Ferouk of Egypt had been outfitted and headed by Nazis with organization of the Brits. The Jordanian Legion was headed by Brits. This goes the same for almost every Arab army in '48 and since. My friend Larry, who faught in the Yom Kippur War, tells me that many Russias and foreign fighters were killed or shot down by the Israelis.
....sorry to digress...back to work...
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The Soviet Union supplied the Arabs for quite a while.
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Sarah, are you for real? Why do you totally dismiss out of hand the realities on the ground? Think for one minute and ask yourself how Islam became the dominant "religion" from Spain to Asia and that "Jihad" had been practiced (and still is) 4 centuries prior to the crusades?
Come on....really.
PS: Israel should NEVER have given one inch of land after the 6 Day War....further it should have expelled its Koranimal populous "thorn" from within its midst.
PPS: Would Israel want to "expand"? Only to its mandated borders of the Balfaur Declaration or that of 1923: the first "two state solution". Personally, I'd prefer the post '67 borders. Perhaps if Israel did expand its boarders there might be a relative peace as Israel is a much more peaceful entity than all 60+ Islamosavage dictatorial regimes are put together... ;)
The Israeli government knew that the rest of the world wouldn't let them keep the land they gained during the 6 day war, they gained bits of land from 3 different countries.
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Yep they were powerful in otherwise, more organized and experienced fighters...
That's not true at all.
In 1947/48 the Jews had ZERO experience at fighting. Most of the Jews were half-starved survivors from hitler's (YS) camps. They were a bunch of tradesmen, teachers and accountants turned farmers turned soldiers.
NO WAY! The Irgun and Stern has some of the most experienced fighters ever. I think i read somewhere that all the young men had to go through training courses as well.
The arabs were by far less experienced or organised when it came to fighting.
While the irregular Arab forces, numbering approximetly 40 thousand were not particularly well coordinated among the different Arab "Liberation" armies, they were trained by some of the best soldiers in the world, members of the Weirmacht who escaped Europe. They fled primarily to Egypt and Syria, and were happy to give the Arabs a hand in finishing Hitler's yimach shmo vizikhro job. Read "In the Shadow of the Syphinx, Nassers Strange Allies" for an account of the enormous numbers of Nazis who fled to the Arab world and joined in the fight for Arab Nationalism.
While the Lehi and Etzel were experienced and highly skilled fighters with signifigant experience, there just werent that many of them, no more then 5 thousand in their entire history were ever engaged in combat activities. Furthermore there was an arms embargo against the pre-state fighters, the Arabs on the other hand were openly and actively armed by among others the British, and the Arab forces especially in the early days of the fighting wildly outnumbered the Jews.
Now remember there were SIX Arab armies, all modern and well armed, that attacked the fledgling Jewish state which until well into the war and the assistance of the Czechs had few weapons and little ammunition. While the British primarily assisted the Arabs with air support, and the RAF was the finest air force in the world at the time, there were battles such as the fight for Yaffo when Jews faced British Army forces as well.
Sarah, are you for real? Why do you totally dismiss out of hand the realities on the ground? Think for one minute and ask yourself how Islam became the dominant "religion" from Spain to Asia and that "Jihad" had been practiced (and still is) 4 centuries prior to the crusades?
Come on....really.
PS: Israel should NEVER have given one inch of land after the 6 Day War....further it should have expelled its Koranimal populous "thorn" from within its midst.
PPS: Would Israel want to "expand"? Only to its mandated borders of the Balfaur Declaration or that of 1923: the first "two state solution". Personally, I'd prefer the post '67 borders. Perhaps if Israel did expand its boarders there might be a relative peace as Israel is a much more peaceful entity than all 60+ Islamosavage dictatorial regimes are put together... ;)
The Israeli government knew that the rest of the world wouldn't let them keep the land they gained during the 6 day war, they gained bits of land from 3 different countries.
That was our land being occupied by Arab imperialists
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Did the U.S begin to Aid Israel after the War of Independence?
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The Israeli government knew that the rest of the world wouldn't let them keep the land they gained during the 6 day war, they gained bits of land from 3 different countries.
They have the right to that land under international law. Land won in a defensive war by the country that was attacked can be kept. Just like the german land won & taken by France, Checkoslovakia & Poland.
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Sarah, are you for real? Why do you totally dismiss out of hand the realities on the ground? Think for one minute and ask yourself how Islam became the dominant "religion" from Spain to Asia and that "Jihad" had been practiced (and still is) 4 centuries prior to the crusades?
Come on....really.
PS: Israel should NEVER have given one inch of land after the 6 Day War....further it should have expelled its Koranimal populous "thorn" from within its midst.
PPS: Would Israel want to "expand"? Only to its mandated borders of the Balfaur Declaration or that of 1923: the first "two state solution". Personally, I'd prefer the post '67 borders. Perhaps if Israel did expand its boarders there might be a relative peace as Israel is a much more peaceful entity than all 60+ Islamosavage dictatorial regimes are put together... ;)
The Israeli government knew that the rest of the world wouldn't let them keep the land they gained during the 6 day war, they gained bits of land from 3 different countries.
Strong Israeli goverment woud not be pushed by UN, which is able to bully only weak and apease stronh like China over Tybet, the problem is the Israel was governed by rotten socialists and idealistic zionist "do gooders" who belived in coahabitation with muslime Arabs in 1967.
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The Israeli government knew that the rest of the world wouldn't let them keep the land they gained during the 6 day war, they gained bits of land from 3 different countries.
They have the right to that land under international law. Land won in a defensive war by the country that was attacked can be kept. Just like the german land won & taken by France, Checkoslovakia & Poland.
O0
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Did the U.S begin to Aid Israel after the War of Independence?
US aid only began after 1967, and frankly I wish we had never taken a penny of American money
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Did the U.S begin to Aid Israel after the War of Independence?
US aid only began after 1967, and frankly I wish we had never taken a penny of American money
Did they aid Israel because the Soviet Union was joining up with the Arabs and because of the cold war, they wanted to remain a predominant superpower?
Or becuase of the Jewish Lobby in New York?
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I know this old short guy in my neighborhood who survived a concentration camp where he almost died of starvation and then he fought in the Irgun and after that fought in the war of independence. A miracle he survived all of that without any missing limbs. He doesn't look like a marine fighter to me, but the whole thing was a miracle. He's a very rich guy now but very cheap though.
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Did the U.S begin to Aid Israel after the War of Independence?
US aid only began after 1967, and frankly I wish we had never taken a penny of American money
Did they aid Israel because the Soviet Union was joining up with the Arabs and because of the cold war, they wanted to remain a predominant superpower?
Or becuase of the Jewish Lobby in New York?
The US only began allying with Israel, though with such friends who needs enemies, because every Arab state had rejected the American desire for an alliance with them.
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Did the U.S begin to Aid Israel after the War of Independence?
US aid only began after 1967, and frankly I wish we had never taken a penny of American money
Did they aid Israel because the Soviet Union was joining up with the Arabs and because of the cold war, they wanted to remain a predominant superpower?
Or becuase of the Jewish Lobby in New York?
The US only began allying with Israel, though with such friends who needs enemies, because every Arab state had rejected the American desire for an alliance with them.
Us have lots of A-rab alies; from Egipt to UAE. But you do have a point it's some time better to be US "enemy" like USSR, China or Iran than alie treated as client kingdom.
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what is the point of this ?
to apologise for israel getting help from other countries? to boast of the help that israel has received from other countries?
the arabs . egypt, jordan, iraq, e.t.c. have enough help from each other. And need it. certainly needed it in 1967.
I know the arabs like to say "israel had help from america". "and needs it"
But putting aside the fact that america didn't help in 1948. THEY DO NOT WANT ISRAEL GETTING HELP! But if they get help they would be overjoyed.
One thing I have not heard them say publically, is "unfair. Israel got help from Allah". But they would not deny it amongst themselves. They sit there worrying over it. Why did Allah let it happen.
This is not some universal view from them, that we should all abandon any help and fight like men. All their arguments are just to try to destroy israel completely. If they received any help they would not just accept it, but they would attribute it to Allah.
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The Israeli government knew that the rest of the world wouldn't let them keep the land they gained during the 6 day war, they gained bits of land from 3 different countries.
Did they aid Israel because the Soviet Union was joining up with the Arabs and because of the cold war, they wanted to remain a predominant superpower?
Or becuase of the Jewish Lobby in New York?
What the Hell is the matter with you? This will be the absolute last confrontation I'll ever attempt with you Sarah.
Firstly Sarah, Under international law, as another member posted, Israel had the right to annex the lands liberated after 1967. The ONLY reason why they did not was due to the EU-Arab, Communist Block and Turd World axis pressuring America which was lead by CFR-Trilateralist anti-Semite Jimmy Carter. Moreover, the Arabs used their debauchery within the OPEC to drop production and artificially inflate the price to America which produced billions for their investments in Western staple industry: Media for example. Read Bat Ye'or's book "Eurabia", for example, which I've linked the E-copy in the JTF site...
Secondly, according to the FIRST "Two State Solution" which 78% of the land of "P-lestine" was giving to a Jew Free Arab/Muslim nation called Jordan:
(http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/newpdf/Pal-under-BritishMandate192.gif)
Notice where the borders are? Why do you not mention anything about when the Arabs: Jordan with "the W-st Bank" and Egypt with Gaza: Jordanians and Egyptians, between 1948 and 1967?
Israel had little aid in '48 war and Europe closed its borders to America's shipments. Russia and the Communist block simply took the place of the Nazis in supplying aid and coordination to the Arab military/states.
Why do you never condemn the Muslims massacring Christians in the Sudan, Phillippines or the Turks/Iraqis of the Kurds or the thousands murdered in Algeria, the beheadings and female circumcision in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Somalia, Sudan or racism and slavery that continues in the entire Muslim world specifically Saudi, Mauritania.... G-d how can Muslims be so blind?
The "Jewish Lobby" in New York? If it was up to me I'd ban your ass from this forum. You've been on here far longer than most and haven't learned a G-d damn thing!! I suppose you have a copy of the Protocols sitting next to your Qur'an like every good Muslim... Jewish Lobby Group? Name ONE main stream media outside of Israel that does NOT spew this anti-Israel pro-Muslim Arab distorted propaganda? What the hell do you think the Arabs/Muslims do with those trillions in Oil-blood money? Perhaps you might research into the Euro-Arab Committee, Arab Interparliamentary Union, Council on Islamic Education, Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace, European Cultural Foundation, Euro-Mediterranean Study Commission, International Institute of Islamic Thought, Euro-Medeterannian Partnership Program, European Institute, for Research on Mediterranean and Euro-Arab Cooperation, Organization of Islamic Conference, UNRWA or simply open your eyes to the realities of the Islamitization and decline of Europe... Please go read and become learned. That Islamic school and your "teachers" are rotting your brain...period!
MarZutra out and please do not ever interact with me period. I have no time for your deception, closed mindedness and willful ignorance... You wonder why the average Brit (or any thinking person: dhimmi or kuffar for that matter) distrusts and abhors Muslims...
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Wow great to have you on board
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Did the U.S begin to Aid Israel after the War of Independence?
US aid only began after 1967, and frankly I wish we had never taken a penny of American money
Did they aid Israel because the Soviet Union was joining up with the Arabs and because of the cold war, they wanted to remain a predominant superpower?
Or becuase of the Jewish Lobby in New York?
Sarah, there are 22 huge Arabs Muslim countries in the world and when someone sides with the tiny Israel, you say that it is because of a "Jewish Lobby". Sorry, but I think this is an anti-Semite remark. If Jews had decided not to build up Israel, we would be hearing people saying that they can stay in the rest of the world b/c of a Jewish Lobby!!!!!!! It seems that, according to you, Jews have no right to live. They just exist because there is a Zionist conspiracy!!!!!!
Those comments about a Nations/Ethnicity's lobby would lead you into trouble, not in a Kahanist forum, but even here in Aregentina with a Leftist Government. This forum is based in USA, I think. And you can say what you want, as far as the admins allow you. People come here also to learn, but next time be more carefull about what you say.
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I never noticed that Saudi Barbaria is so close a few clicks from Eilat. Here's another map:
(http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/israel_hist_1973.jpg)
Notice how "much" the UN gave to Jews in 1947. All teritories PLO/HAMS want today for their future state were promised to them and more... Why they don't created the Fakekitinian state then or between 1949-1967? Here's the answer this is Bush and Olmert peace partner's FATAH map:
(http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/PA%20map%20of%20Palestine%20(Israel).jpg)
And here's the Iran proxy HAMAS map:
(http://imshin.blogspot.com/images/hammas%20map2.jpg)
The palestinians and their A-rab and muslime kin simply don't want any Jewish state, however small.
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It says in my history text book that the Jewish lobby in America, held quite a lot of influence and this strengthed the U.S support for Israel.
I never said that Israel is just there because of it. Forget it. Marzutra, I don't want you to confront me. You just ramble on and on.
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It says in my history text book that the Jewish lobby in America, held quite a lot of influence and this strengthed the U.S support for Israel.
I never said that Israel is just there because of it. Forget it. Marzutra, I don't want you to confront me. You just ramble on and on.
If you learn from an Arabs text book in a Muslim school, no wonder you will read that and even worse things. If you really want to be free instead of indoctrinated, you must read from different sources, and not believe just only what you are taught.
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It says in my history text book that the Jewish lobby in America, held quite a lot of influence and this strengthed the U.S support for Israel.
I never said that Israel is just there because of it. Forget it. Marzutra, I don't want you to confront me. You just ramble on and on.
Sarah, I must apologize for my forwardness. But I'm just so sick and tired of the spewing of these distortions and obviously "protocol" view which 99.999 of Muslims and anti-Jew savages hold in their quest to elminate the Jew and of course the symbol of G-d: Israel.
I don't just ramble. If I did than why is the following post one of praise? I think you are not only highly mislead but also very closed minded. If there was such a "lobby group" why are there no confrontations of the lie of a "P-lestinian People", "We_t Bank", "East Jeru_alem" or so-called "occupied territories"? Why is America pressuring Israel NOT to annex their lands and transfer the Muslims, as the Muslims had done BUT to reward massacres and terrorism with Land for another Sham terrorist anti-Jew/West "state"?
Please do not insult my intelligence... This isn't simply just a matter of disagreement. Do you remember when you first used to write me, I supplied you with so much information for you to research with an open mind and compare with what you’ve been indoctrinated with in the past. I’ve offered you assistance in sorting out fact from fiction, reality from sham….but after how long you still post the same damn rubbish that has already been beaten to death? Come on….really… I don’t know about anyone else on this forum but I’m for one am sure suspect….
PS: I noticed you didn't bother to answer any of my comments about the Arab-Muslim world?
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It says in my history text book that the Jewish lobby in America, held quite a lot of influence and this strengthed the U.S support for Israel.
I never said that Israel is just there because of it. Forget it. Marzutra, I don't want you to confront me. You just ramble on and on.
If you learn from an Arabs text book in a Muslim school, no wonder you will read that and even worse things. If you really want to be free instead of indoctrinated, you must read from different sources, and not believe just only what you are taught.
Just because i go to a muslim school it doesn't mean i learn from arab text books, i study the national curriculam. It's english, with english text books. I found what you said offensive.
I don't want to answer any comments you made at all. You do ramble on, because you've just brought up so many different issues that i didn't even mention, in your post.
Just keep your intelligence to yourself then. I don't understand what you're talking about. Yes i'm stupid, deceptive and narrow-minded, so don't bother "informing" me about anything.
I'm not arguing over the borders of Israel.
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It says in my history text book that the Jewish lobby in America, held quite a lot of influence and this strengthed the U.S support for Israel.
I never said that Israel is just there because of it. Forget it. Marzutra, I don't want you to confront me. You just ramble on and on.
If you learn from an Arabs text book in a Muslim school, no wonder you will read that and even worse things. If you really want to be free instead of indoctrinated, you must read from different sources, and not believe just only what you are taught.
Just because i go to a muslim school it doesn't mean i learn from arab text books, i study the national curriculam. It's english, with english text books. I found what you said offensive.
I don't want to answer any comments you made at all. You do ramble on, because you've just brought up so many different issues that i didn't even mention, in your post.
Just keep your intelligence to yourself then. I don't understand what you're talking about. Yes i'm stupid, deceptive and narrow-minded, so don't bother "informing" me about anything.
I'm not arguing over the borders of Israel.
what is the ISBN of this book that talked about a powerful jewish lobby?
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Just because i go to a muslim school it doesn't mean i learn from arab text books, i study the national curriculam. It's english, with english text books. I found what you said offensive.
I didn't mean to offend you. I only said that if you want to be yourself, not what others want you to be, you should read from different sources. Have you read some books written by Jews?
The same happens here. I wouldn't trust an Argentinian book about the Falklands!!!!!!
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If the Arabs put down their weapons, Israel would want to expand it's borders wouldn't it?
I'm sorry for misunderstanding you Sarah you are not arguing over the borders of Israel. How could I be so mistaken and shortsighted. Please accept my humble apology..... ???
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If the Arabs put down their weapons, Israel would want to expand it's borders wouldn't it?
I'm sorry for misunderstanding you Sarah you are not arguing over the borders of Israel. How could I be so mistaken and shortsighted. Please accept my humble apology..... ???
I wasn't arguing. It was a rhetorical question, you even said so yourself that Israel should and would want back the land from the 6 day war.
I didn't mean to offend you. I only said that if you want to be yourself, not what others want you to be, you should read from different sources. Have you read some books written by Jews?
The same happens here. I wouldn't trust an Argentinian book about the Falklands!!!!!!
I read from the sources that are written by the education board, i don't care if they are Jews, Muslims, Christians or whatever....it could have been written by all of them. You wouldn't trust and Argentenian book about the Falklands because it was directly involved. Britain wasn't 100% involved in every single war that has pretty much taken place over the last century. I know you didn't mean to offend me. :) I just found it quite insulting, never mind.
Was he really rambling on or is it that you just can't answer? I did not see him ramble, that's why I ask.
Sarah, what are you doing in the forum, if I may ask? What is you purpose here.
You understand him. I don't and I don't want to either.
Good question. I have lost a lot of motivation in my initial purpose, which was to understand Judaism and JTF's views. So, Shalom Mills.
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q_q_ it wasn't a whole book on powerful Jewish lobbies. There was one line, which said the Jewish Lobbies in New York strengthed the link between the U.S and Israel.
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Sarah, even if there is a so-called Jewish Lobby, so what?
The Arab/Muslim countries, with all their oil money donate tons of money to American Universities to set up anti-Israeli, pro-Arab Middle Eastern Studies programs. They have purchased shares of our media outlets, which is why the news is often biased against Israel. And finally, they have most of the world's oil, which they used as a Damocles sword over other countries as a veto of their foreign and domestic policies.
So with that being said, why shouldn't Israel have some kind of group to represent her interests?
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Yeah I know. I don't have anything against any Jewish Lobby at all.
Mills the Jewish Lobby business was just intergrated in some of our work, it wasn't bias just factual, confirming that there was one.
Yes, I don't want to understand the views of JTF anymore because they are twisted.
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I don't want to understand the views of JTF anymore because they are twisted.
This is very troubling.
How could you say you agree so deeply, say you denounce islam, tell us you want to convert to Judaism, and then turn 180 degrees like this? And then to throw it off on not wanting to understand?
To be honest, I feel betrayed by this comment. Islam is a cancer and replaces logic and reason with extreme bais against Israel and other non-muslims. I think the people you were around at your school have affected you.
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Mills, please don't be so hard on Sarah. She's only a 15 year old Muslohide who, after many many months being here believes JTF's views are twisted? Have you read the Qur'an lately or moreso the Hadith? Perhaps step back and took a look at Sharia Law as it is practiced in the Mohammadan homelands? You'd probably be stoned to death just for talking on a Jewish forum.
If you think JTF's views are "twisted" perhaps consider your neglect to identify that in no Arab/Islamic country today is there effective democracy or the universal recognition of fundamental human rights? Perhaps knowing there is no gender equality, no equality of non-Muslims with Muslims or full religious freedoms might be worthy of consideration?
Now whose views are truly "twisted"?
I truly don't understand you Sarah. You came on a very long time ago to which I had suggested books for you to learn and acquire knowledge on, not only Judaism but Christianity and Islam with their respective histories. I believe I even suggested the book "9 Questions People Ask About Judaism" by Dennis Prager..
Ah, nevermind there is no use anyway...
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q_q_ it wasn't a whole book on powerful Jewish lobbies. There was one line, which said the Jewish Lobbies in New York strengthed the link between the U.S and Israel.
I understand.. I am just wondering what the book is (ISBN) because comments like "the power of the jewish lobby group(s)" tend to come from people that are very anti-semitic, and against israel and jews..
Just like when people call Melanie Phillips a right wing loonie, we know they are extreme left, enemies of israel and the jewish people. Since melanie phillips is quite moderate herself, in her views - just defending israel`s right to respond to terrorist attacks.. If they think she is an "extremist", then it shows where they stand.
Consider it a rule of thumb
And that`s why I am interested in what book it was.
The last time I heard about an article complaining about a "powerful jewish lobby", was a leftist magazine called "the new statesman"
If you search google images for New Statesman Kosher conspiracy,
you get this picture
http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/Statesman.jpg
That was the front page of a popular leftist magazine complaining about the jewish lobby. You see the anti-semitism..
You find similar thing in old BNP literature..
And nazi propaganda.
And of course anti-semitic arab cartoons, such as those in egypt
e.g. http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
You see many about jews controlling America..
For many underlying reasons, it turns out that there is a rule of thumb, that sources that talk of a powerful jewish lobby, are very anti-semitic. Think jews control america. Resent it. e.t..c
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There is an AIPAC around Capitol, but also NRA, Workers's Unions lobies are present too becouse all decision making in modern "democracies" are... let say influenced by lobbying ;); Not to mention the powerfull Saudi lobby or muslim umbrella groups like CAIR. Muslimes intead of envyng the power of American Jewish comunity coming from education and social coherence and activism shuld emulate them and do something for their parent countries not for the couse of global Jihadism.
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Shalom back. Thanks a lot for all of the people who responded to this thread. I'm really very happy to be in here and everyday I'm more asserted that i'm on the right track.Eswpecially after the terrorist attack in Jerusalem that shows once again that muslim's war on israel is a religious one, It's not by any means fight for freedom from "occupation", It's just a war raged by muslims against The jews, christians, and all non muslims which started long ago. Such incidents give me another assertion that leaving islam is the only way to be a human, cos as a muslim, you are nothing but a creature full of hatred, terrorism, and despair.
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Hi Ex Muslim 4 Israel!
Why don't you start an Ask Ex Muslim 4 Israel thread?
My question would be:
What is the main weakness of the average muslim? How can we free them from the islamic ideology?
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Shalom honest. yeah It'll be a great idea. In which subforum shall I open this thread? Anyway, in quick response to your question: I say "Fear". They live in constant fear of a god (allah) who is a demonized terroristic entity who can't wait to torture any non -practising muslims. they have surrenderred their mind to this god who have made them complete mindless creatures. Once such fear is taken from their hearts (i'm not asking for non-fear or respect to God. i know jews love and fear their G_d), but Muslims have been passive enough to even give up their brains in fear of such Satanic god!