JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tina Greco - Melbourne on April 09, 2008, 09:15:50 AM
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In world war 2, Hitler tattooed Jews with numbers, marking their bodies against G-ds laws, do you think those Jews G-d allowed into heaven, or do you think they were forsaken?
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In world war 2, Hitler tattooed Jews with numbers, marking their bodies against G-ds laws, do you think those Jews G-d allowed into heaven, or do you think they were forsaken?
Allowed in ,besides i know more then few Jewish guys with tattoos
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I don't know the answer to your question, but personally I don't think God would keep someone away just because they got a tattoo, and much less because someone else FORCED them to be tattooed. That's like blaming a woman for being raped!
I think it should be considered a sin to put a tattoo on anyone's body, unless it's for correcting a cosmetic problem, like a really ugly birthmark. There are legitimate reasons for tattooing that a cosmetic surgeon might use. Other than that, I think they're just awful. Why mark up the body that God gave you?
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Having lost nearly all my family in that period, that was the reason for my tattoos, for when I die I will be where they are.
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In world war 2, Hitler tattooed Jews with numbers, marking their bodies against G-ds laws, do you think those Jews G-d allowed into heaven, or do you think they were forsaken?
They were not forsaken.
I think God makes exceptions for victims of torture. ;)
On the other hand Hitler not only got a one way ticket but he drove the bus straight to hell.
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Having lost nearly all my family in that period, that was the reason for my tattoos, for when I die I will be where they are.
I don't know how the super religious types will view that, Skippy, but I respect that.
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Jews that got Nazi tattoos in The Holocaust (I call all tattoos Nazi tattoos by the way.) are permitted to be buried in Jewish cemeteries but a Jew who got a tattoo out of their own free will is not permitted to be buried in a Jewish cemetery.
What if they had a disfiguring scar that could be easily covered by a skin-colored tattoo?
Also, what happens if they got a tattoo and no one knew about it until after they died? Is the funeral parlour going to tell the already grieving family?
Hitler also burned Jews' bodies and Jews aren't supposed to be burned when they die. But he didn't burn the bones so they will be resurrected from the Luz bone.
What about Jewish victims of 9/11 whose bodies were completely burnt up?
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In world war 2, Hitler tattooed Jews with numbers, marking their bodies against G-ds laws, do you think those Jews G-d allowed into heaven, or do you think they were forsaken?
Hitler also burned Jews' bodies and Jews aren't supposed to be burned when they die. But he didn't burn the bones so they will be resurrected from the Luz bone.
Jews that got Nazi tattoos in The Holocaust (I call all tattoos Nazi tattoos by the way.) are permitted to be buried in Jewish cemeteries but a Jew who got a tattoo out of their own free will is not permitted to be buried in a Jewish cemetery.
Many were burnt to ash in the end, no bones were saved.
Plus I am not going to be buried anyway.
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Having lost nearly all my family in that period, that was the reason for my tattoos, for when I die I will be where they are.
I don't know how the super religious types will view that, Skippy, but I respect that.
Many super religious ones nowadays can't see the woods for the trees. ;)
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Many were burnt to ash in the end, no bones were saved.
Tovia Singer said Hitler didn't pulvarize the bones so they survived the burning.
Plus I am not going to be buried anyway.
Then what are you going to do?
Tovia Singer was incorrect. In the end the ovens run white hot 24 hours a day, nothing was left of most.
I will be cremated, as was my father and placed in the ocean. And so will be my mother when she dies.
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As a Christian I don't believe the body is important at all once you leave it. Certainly it should be treated with respect by those left behind, and not defiled, but I don't think you can hurt someone in any way once they're dead. My body is not me. I'm a spiritual being living inside my body.
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Skippy why do you want to be cremated?
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Skippy why do you want to be cremated?
As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.
And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.
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Skippy why do you want to be cremated?
As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.
And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.
You're a Jew right? But don't Jews believe that burns the soul?
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I'm just curious. How can a non-corporeal thing be burned by a chemical reaction?
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Tattooing is forbidden as a form body mutilation, I'm sured it is not prohibited as a type of reconstructive treatment. I've never heard of an incident where a a body was refused to be buried for being tattooed. I suppose that even in such hypothetical case the body is buried in the outer side of the fence.
I've heard that cremation may not have been forbidden in previous generations. In any case the concern is that the body is being desecrated (by the cremators).
As for holocaust victims, there is no machloket (dispute) that whatever mutilation and degradation they suffered, it will not prevent them from being rewarded in the world to come. Clearly there's no way that a man can destroy another man's soul.
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
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My grandmother on my mother's side is cremated in 1982 and my late uncle tht died from a car accident in NJ from horrific winter condition in 89 was cremated, instead of burying. I guess my mother felt their presence was closer to the home. I have the 2 boxes now in my cabinet
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3OdGBRq_qs
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signing up to be cremated after death is a HUGG mistake. Choosing to do soo, im sprry to say is an extremly stupid (sorry I cant think of a nicer way of saying it, but forgive me) thing to do. Why would someone sign up to get scattered all over the universe, I believe this is the form of Kaf Hakella which is worse then Gehinnom (Hell). This is the punishment described for the biggest reshaim like titus (may his name be blotted out).
With tattoes. It is a sin to get them, but that doesn't automatically mean that one is damned to hell forever, expecially if it was forced upon them. Sometimes people look at things as if its some calculated system (sad to say it is the christian and islamic point of view a lot of times). Also they remove the tattoes nowadays after one dies. Having tattoes is a sin and people should be worried, but it doesn't really measure if one is automatically a bad person or not. Getting a tattoe is a sin, but its not every second a sin that your getting while you have it. But it is best to remove it when you can.
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As a Christian I don't believe the body is important at all once you leave it. Certainly it should be treated with respect by those left behind, and not defiled, but I don't think you can hurt someone in any way once they're dead. My body is not me. I'm a spiritual being living inside my body.
Cremation is forbidden in Christianity.
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Actually the way I saw about cremation is that the soul of the person is still close by but thats jmho
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i think the prohibition of tatoos has nothing to do with heaven, but being able to buried in a jewish cemetary. But i believe the rule is self inflicted wound that is permanent. Am I correct?
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Many were burnt to ash in the end, no bones were saved.
Tovia Singer said Hitler didn't pulvarize the bones so they survived the burning.
Plus I am not going to be buried anyway.
Then what are you going to do?
Tovia Singer was incorrect. In the end the ovens run white hot 24 hours a day, nothing was left of most.
I will be cremated, as was my father and placed in the ocean. And so will be my mother when she dies.
In my opinion, i think the proper thing is a burial and allow the earth do the decomposing in the natural way.
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Skippy why do you want to be cremated?
As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.
And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.
Then you're a self-hating Jew.
I think those are somewhat stong words to use. But it definitly is something horrible to do to oneself and we should prevent people from doing that.
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he's not a self-hating jew... i just don't think he's a jew at all.
his "religion" seems to be some sort of Shoah-based memorial - every action and implication in this posting is to try and justify to himself that he can DEFAME HIS BODY WITH INK, and CREMATE HIS BODY TO ASH.... so that you can share the same terrible forced punishments that your family died for? I dont want to be insensitive, because I understand I will never convince you otherwise (especially upon hearing the way your father taught you, and his ideas of afterlife)...The Nazi's FORCED jews to get tattoo's, they FORCED jews into the ovens - even then, there was RABBINIC rulings on what was Halacha, and what was not - even in the ghettoes and death camps.... Judaism cannot flex to these extents without breaking - we have a ruling body, and they decide what truly is kosher, and what is not.
But i think if you spent more spiritual time and dedication toward the REAL reason all those people died (because they were STIFF NECKED jews, and would rather DIE than convert or stray at all from the religion), then you would be ashamed for your reasoning and decisions to blatantly flaunt and ignore the laws of our great religion... which would truly ensure you a better afterlife and help you achieve closure.
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As a Christian I don't believe the body is important at all once you leave it. Certainly it should be treated with respect by those left behind, and not defiled, but I don't think you can hurt someone in any way once they're dead. My body is not me. I'm a spiritual being living inside my body.
Cremation is forbidden in Christianity.
I don't think it's a direct commandment that we have to be buried. My aunt died of cancer and was cremated because she was broke and no one could afford a funeral. We plan to bury her remains one day but we still have her in our home right now. I think it's nicer to be buried, but there are times when it's impractical.
The particles that make up someone's body don't disappear, anyway. Do you really think God's going to say "Oh, they got cremated, so they can't be in heaven." Ridiculous.
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From a scientific perspective, after a few hundred years there usually isn't much left of people's bones anyway. Those things usually break down over a period of time and don't fossilize. Even if they did fossilize, that's just the actual bone being replaced with stone.
Why does someone want to completely obliterate their entire Earthly presence?
The particles that make up the body never go away even if you're cremated. They just move around the earth a bit.
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Look, I realize that this is probably one of the most controversial of subjects we've tackled on this forum... And it's pretty obvious that opinions are varying to a degree... There was a time in our history when the tattoo had far greater of a "criminal element" to it among most people in "mainstream society"... It's certainly no secret here on this cherished message board that our faith does not look positively on those who choose to color their own bodies with designs of either their own imagination or from the imagination of others (at the tattoo application stores)... As you probably all know by now, I am a man of faith, so therefore I lean towards the more "conservative" view that one should attempt to not tattoo oneself in the sort of manner that we see so many people do these days--- And yes, I understand that my opinion may actually be in the "minority" among those in the mainstream's school of thought regarding tattoos and so-called "body art"...
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Look, I realize that this is probably one of the most controversial of subjects we've tackled on this forum... And it's pretty obvious that opinions are varying to a degree... There was a time in our history when the tattoo had far greater of a "criminal element" to it among most people in "mainstream society"... It's certainly no secret here on this cherished message board that our faith does not look positively on those who choose to color their own bodies with designs of either their own imagination or from the imagination of others (at the tattoo application stores)... As you probably all know by now, I am a man of faith, so therefore I lean towards the more "conservative" view that one should attempt to not tattoo oneself in the sort of manner that we see so many people do these days--- And yes, I understand that my opinion may actually be in the "minority" among those in the mainstream's school of thought regarding tattoos and so-called "body art"...
I'm with you on this one.
I don't care for them either.
I know it sounds horrible...but I hate to see tattoos on women.
I guess because when I was growing up it was not the norm for women to have tattoos.
I've already told my child - no permanent tattoos allowed. >:( I don't even like the fake ones.
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Many were burnt to ash in the end, no bones were saved.
Tovia Singer said Hitler didn't pulvarize the bones so they survived the burning.
Plus I am not going to be buried anyway.
Then what are you going to do?
Tovia Singer was incorrect. In the end the ovens run white hot 24 hours a day, nothing was left of most.
I will be cremated, as was my father and placed in the ocean. And so will be my mother when she dies.
In my opinion, i think the proper thing is a burial and allow the earth do the decomposing in the natural way.
Yes it is the proper thing.
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Skippy why do you want to be cremated?
As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.
And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.
You're a Jew right? But don't Jews believe that burns the soul?
Yes I am a Jewess, I don't believe your soul can ever be destroyed, even after my fathers death I am still strongly connected to him. At many times of my life I feel he is with me. The soul has to go somewhere. And where ever that is, is where my soul will go too.
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
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Torah forbids this practice.
And for good reason.
A "Nation of Priests" of The Most High G-d does not continue on with the abominations practiced by idolators.
A large part of The Law given through Moses was to make the Jewish People a sanctified nation living apart, one that did not "mark their skin", or "pass their children through fire", or "castrate themselves"; all practices of the peoples into whose midst the nation Israel was born.
We were set apart from other nations, to serve the One True G-d and to be as "A Light Unto the Nations".
*and in a secular sense, tattooing was (and still is) considered to be associated with criminal pathology (an actual syndrome known as "tattoo syndrome"), barbarian cultures, and military service. Women are found throughout the Arab world with tattooed lips and tattooed faces; the same found also in primitive African tribes. Flagellation and self-mortification were, and continue to be, the practices of idolators and primitives. (Just look at the Muslim Sh-it-'ites cutting their heads with knives to celebrate the Feast of Ali...exactly as done by the worshippers of Moloch, Ba'al, and other false gods of the ancient Middle East).
**I'm simply stating the Jewish position on tattooing and other practices...not damning anyone or wanting to insult others...just the facts.
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Skippy why do you want to be cremated?
As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.
And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.
Then you're a self-hating Jew. Don't you want to be resurrected? The family that was burnt in The Holocaust was burnt without their will. It is possible that if you voluntarily burn it, you will be obliterated for ever and ever just like you plan on doing to your physical body.
Why does someone want to completely obliterate their entire Earthly presence?
Yacov then you are an idiot to think I am a self hating Jew.
May G-d forgive your naive and stupid actions, because I never will.
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From a scientific perspective, after a few hundred years there usually isn't much left of people's bones anyway. Those things usually break down over a period of time and don't fossilize. Even if they did fossilize, that's just the actual bone being replaced with stone.
Why does someone want to completely obliterate their entire Earthly presence?
The particles that make up the body never go away even if you're cremated. They just move around the earth a bit.
Exactly Ruby O0
You are a very wise lady.
Anyway its quite physical. The ash well, not so much ash its like rough sand.
And every much still your love one.
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My father was cremated, but he was rotting a while after his body was found so it was for hygiene purposes I believe?
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.
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My father was cremated, but he was rotting a while after his body was found so it was for hygiene purposes I believe?
What happen to his ashes?
I am sorry for your loss.
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Yacov then you are an idiot to think I am a self hating Jew.
May G-d forgive your naive and stupid actions, because I never will.
maybe you are the idiot? You ask a question on a forum for Jews, and then react angrily and ignorantly when you don't get the answer you were looking for - even though a shocking amount of users did tell you what you wanted to hear.
I'm sorry - go back to my post (on the previous page) for more of why you are actually wrong in thinking you can stretch the religion to fit your needs, and why body ink AND cremation are wrong.
Bottom line - Jews have a RULING BODY (like all other religions) of scholars who dedicate their lives to studying, deciphering, and modernizing the scriptures and the laws handed down to us as Har Sinai. If you do not agree with these rulings, then in my opinion (and the opinion of Jewry worldwide) you are OUTSIDE of the religion. You are the one who is wrong! You are the one who has made some perverted reasoning to justify the fact that you have broken our laws, and plan to break our laws again in the future!
Jews during the Holocaust were TORMENTED by the every-day depravity and disgusting circumstances they were forced through. But even THEN, they looked to Rabbi's and scholars available to pass judgements on what was considered Halacha, and what was not! Even those who were made to have tattoo's during the holocaust - the very same people you exploit in your disgusting justification for breaking Jewish law currently, when things are GOOD - went to Rabbis and other scholars learned in the Halacha to see what acts were and were not permissible.
I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU LOOK AT THIS LINK: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265307,00.html
I look forward to a response, whether you like what I said or not.... I dont hate you, but I do hate when people blatantly violate and flaunt the age-old traditions and laws of our religion, and trying to reason with themselves somehow that they are NOT doing just this!
What you are asking people to approve of is a clear double-face; on one hand your actions go directly AGAINST judaism, yet on the other hand you claim that you adhere to the laws and consider yourself a Jew.
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.
So? Was it because of their choice? or it happened that way? - Its like saying many Jews have eaten non-kosher food in history, the question is was it because they were literally starving and had to or else they would die, or because the doller menu is cheaper then the Kosher food, or they have a desire to eat cheese burgers. In the first case one is not a Rasha, in the second they are by purposly going agains't G-d, How much more soo planning something out for the future. The problem, im sad to see is ignorance- it is the worse danger. The Jewish nation doesn't make decisions based on opinion, we have to make decisions based on Halacha (G-d's orders and what G-d knows is good for you). I hope you see the proper way, and not let your emotions cause you eternal damage.
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I can understand that the aim should be to live a perfect life according to Halacha, but I would doubt that many people, if any, live an entirely perfect life. I also agree that if one does commit an indiscretion it is up to G-d to judge him or her and not fellow man. I think it is also commanded for Jews to love fellow Jews and righteous Gentiles, even if we do not agree with every one of their actions, within reason of course. While I would not do it, I simply can't compare someone getting a tattoo with murder, rape, etc.
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Yacov then you are an idiot to think I am a self hating Jew.
May G-d forgive your naive and stupid actions, because I never will.
maybe you are the idiot? You ask a question on a forum for Jews, and then react angrily and ignorantly when you don't get the answer you were looking for - even though a shocking amount of users did tell you what you wanted to hear.
I'm sorry - go back to my post (on the previous page) for more of why you are actually wrong in thinking you can stretch the religion to fit your needs, and why body ink AND cremation are wrong.
Bottom line - Jews have a RULING BODY (like all other religions) of scholars who dedicate their lives to studying, deciphering, and modernizing the scriptures and the laws handed down to us as Har Sinai. If you do not agree with these rulings, then in my opinion (and the opinion of Jewry worldwide) you are OUTSIDE of the religion. You are the one who is wrong! You are the one who has made some perverted reasoning to justify the fact that you have broken our laws, and plan to break our laws again in the future!
Jews during the Holocaust were TORMENTED by the every-day depravity and disgusting circumstances they were forced through. But even THEN, they looked to Rabbi's and scholars available to pass judgements on what was considered Halacha, and what was not! Even those who were made to have tattoo's during the holocaust - the very same people you exploit in your disgusting justification for breaking Jewish law currently, when things are GOOD - went to Rabbis and other scholars learned in the Halacha to see what acts were and were not permissible.
I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU LOOK AT THIS LINK: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265307,00.html
I look forward to a response, whether you like what I said or not.... I dont hate you, but I do hate when people blatantly violate and flaunt the age-old traditions and laws of our religion, and trying to reason with themselves somehow that they are NOT doing just this!
What you are asking people to approve of is a clear double-face; on one hand your actions go directly AGAINST judaism, yet on the other hand you claim that you adhere to the laws and consider yourself a Jew.
I asked a question, I did not seek approve from you and any one else.
I will answer what is need, but will not be attacked for raising a question.
Since you have choosen to attack me I will not answer you.
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.
So? Was it because of their choice? or it happened that way? - Its like saying many Jews have eaten non-kosher food in history, the question is was it because they were literally starving and had to or else they would die, or because the doller menu is cheaper then the Kosher food, or they have a desire to eat cheese burgers.
you have gone off topic, the question was about Hilter tattooing Jews, not about what I do.
So do you think that if Jew is put in that situation they can enter heaven?
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You're in the wrong forum then.
If you want somewhere where people will applaud you for doing WHATEVER YOU WANT, then maybe you should join some LEFTIST group, where they embrace homosexuals, bisexuals, trans-gender people, and whoever else does whatever they want with no regard.
Not only that, you will also be able to find many other "jews" who do whatever they want, and claim to be "Jewish"
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265307,00.html
CLICK ON THIS LINK
YES... i believe that those who were GIVEN tattoos against their will during the Shoah will go to heaven, if they lived their lives reasonably within the boundaries of Halacha. There were (and have been even further in the past) terrible circumstances which caused people to do things that were outside of hte laws of Judaism - however, if it is by CHOICE (such as someone getting a tattoo TODAY, by choice) then it is an inexcusible violation of our religion.
May i remind you again however, that many of the practices and traditions of Judaism are NOT REASONABLE - you can think about context and situation and whatever you'd like for hours and hours and not find a "logical" reason for doing so - MANY LAWS IN JUDAISM ARE JUST THAT - "ARBITRARY" LAWS JUST TO PROVE THAT YOU SUBMIT TO GOD, AND YOU WILL FOLLOW HIS RULES AND COMMANDS.
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You're in the wrong forum then.
If you want somewhere where people will applaud you for doing WHATEVER YOU WANT, then maybe you should join some LEFTIST group, where they embrace homosexuals, bisexuals, trans-gender people, and whoever else does whatever they want with no regard.
Not only that, you will also be able to find many other "jews" who do whatever they want, and claim to be "Jewish"
Thats your opinion you are entitled to it.
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.
So? Was it because of their choice? or it happened that way? - Its like saying many Jews have eaten non-kosher food in history, the question is was it because they were literally starving and had to or else they would die, or because the doller menu is cheaper then the Kosher food, or they have a desire to eat cheese burgers.
you have gone off topic, the question was about Hilter tattooing Jews, not about what I do.
So do you think that if Jew is put in that situation they can enter heaven?
I thought that I explained it in the different number of posts (I even said that, its not necessarly a formula type thing).
My answer again is YES. They are not at fault for getting a number tattoed on them (for now well only deal with the present life, dont want to get it more complicated), or even worse being cremated (if they were). This simply was done by the nazi YSV, agains't them. BUT that is in no way the same as a person choosing on his/her own free will to do these things, expecially cremation.
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You're in the wrong forum then.
If you want somewhere where people will applaud you for doing WHATEVER YOU WANT, then maybe you should join some LEFTIST group, where they embrace homosexuals, bisexuals, trans-gender people, and whoever else does whatever they want with no regard.
Not only that, you will also be able to find many other "jews" who do whatever they want, and claim to be "Jewish"
Thats your opinion you are entitled to it.
NO! IT'S NOT AN OPINION! WHAT YOU HAVE IS AN OPINION - AND YOU ARE TRYING TO GET IT VALIDATED BY PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT THE RABBINIC COUNCILS AND HALACHA ARE THE RULES TO FOLLOW!
STOP IGNORING WHAT ME AND THE OTHER JEWS HAVE TO SAY. You are a very sick and ill cancer patient looking for a second opinion from a doctor that will say "you are healthy, there is nothing at all wrong with you!".... You can't selectively choose what advice to hear - doing so is being a Liberal Leftist.
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.
So? Was it because of their choice? or it happened that way? - Its like saying many Jews have eaten non-kosher food in history, the question is was it because they were literally starving and had to or else they would die, or because the doller menu is cheaper then the Kosher food, or they have a desire to eat cheese burgers.
you have gone off topic, the question was about Hilter tattooing Jews, not about what I do.
So do you think that if Jew is put in that situation they can enter heaven?
I thought that I explained it in the different number of posts (I even said that, its not necessarly a formula type thing).
My answer again is YES. They are not at fault for getting a number tattoed on them (for now well only deal with the present life, dont want to get it more complicated), or even worse being cremated (if they were). This simply was done by the nazi YSV, agains't them. BUT that is in no way the same as a person choosing on his/her own free will to do these things, expecially cremation.
Do you think a soul can be totally destroyed?
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.
So? Was it because of their choice? or it happened that way? - Its like saying many Jews have eaten non-kosher food in history, the question is was it because they were literally starving and had to or else they would die, or because the doller menu is cheaper then the Kosher food, or they have a desire to eat cheese burgers.
you have gone off topic, the question was about Hilter tattooing Jews, not about what I do.
So do you think that if Jew is put in that situation they can enter heaven?
I thought that I explained it in the different number of posts (I even said that, its not necessarly a formula type thing).
My answer again is YES. They are not at fault for getting a number tattoed on them (for now well only deal with the present life, dont want to get it more complicated), or even worse being cremated (if they were). This simply was done by the nazi YSV, agains't them. BUT that is in no way the same as a person choosing on his/her own free will to do these things, expecially cremation.
Do you think a soul can be totally destroyed?
YES.
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I don't understand why you guys are being so mean to her. There are a lot of Christians I disagree with but I wouldn't tear them apart in the open forum on a personal level.
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Skippy why do you want to be cremated?
As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.
And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.
You're a Jew right? But don't Jews believe that burns the soul?
Yes I am a Jewess, I don't believe your soul can ever be destroyed, even after my fathers death I am still strongly connected to him. At many times of my life I feel he is with me. The soul has to go somewhere. And where ever that is, is where my soul will go too.
Your family is a disgrace to their ancestors who were forcibly exterminated and burnt in The Holocaust. You are acting like The Nazis who destroyed them and their bodies.
Yacov are you quite finished?
You are blessed with a family you know, even tho they have turned their backs on you. Don't hate people that have a support of loving family.
I feel sorry for you Yacov, hopefully one day you will find that piece of happiness that only comes from your family and loved ones.
Peace be with you.
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I don't understand why you guys are being so mean to her. There are a lot of Christians I disagree with but I wouldn't tear them apart in the open forum on a personal level.
Its simple Ruby, they are not capable of understanding or having empathy.
Its called personal agendas getting in the way.
Thats the reason why Chaim is a great leader here, and JTF would be nothing without him.
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I don't understand why you guys are being so mean to her. There are a lot of Christians I disagree with but I wouldn't tear them apart in the open forum on a personal level.
Agreed I wouldn't want to be blamed for something that happen many years ago that I had nothing to do with.
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Thats the reason why Chaim is a great leader here, and JTF would be nothing without him.
Again, you ask for sympathy while simultaneously making an exceedingly arrogant comment - like you are above us "crazy" fanatics! This is why you are being "picked on" and "tormented"...
have you asked Chaim his opinions on Tattoos and cremation? Does he think it is OK for a jew to ink themselves, to deface their bodies, or to get cremated? Where is his post in this thread if he think's it's so kosher?
And JTF would be nothing without Chaim? I agree with you on that one. But Chaim wouldn't have half the support base he does if it weren't for the real ideologue of this movement, and even Chaim would admit - that is Rabbi Meir Kahane.
Have you read any Kahane? Have you seen his views of self-hating jews? have you seen his views on assimilation? Have you seen his views on living in the diaspora? Perhaps you should read a little background of WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT before you start telling OTHER that they don't have an idea...
because frankly, i really think you are the one "munsoned" up a creek without a paddle.... it truly seems you are the clueless one with regards to this forum and what the prevailing ideas and beliefs are in a KAHANIST forum.
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There is neither heaven nor hell. Afterlife and underworld are a pagan concept.
By cremating yourself you achieve nothing. Your body is supposed to come back into soil, from which we were made.
Good luck!
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Thats the reason why Chaim is a great leader here, and JTF would be nothing without him.
Again, you ask for sympathy while simultaneously making an exceedingly arrogant comment - like you are above us "crazy" fanatics! This is why you are being "picked on" and "tormented"...
Please stop.
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Thats the reason why Chaim is a great leader here, and JTF would be nothing without him.
Again, you ask for sympathy while simultaneously making an exceedingly arrogant comment - like you are above us "crazy" fanatics! This is why you are being "picked on" and "tormented"...
have you asked Chaim his opinions on Tattoos and cremation? Does he think it is OK for a jew to ink themselves, to deface their bodies, or to get cremated? Where is his post in this thread if he think's it's so kosher?
And JTF would be nothing without Chaim? I agree with you on that one. But Chaim wouldn't have half the support base he does if it weren't for the real ideologue of this movement, and even Chaim would admit - that is Rabbi Meir Kahane.
Have you read any Kahane? Have you seen his views of self-hating jews? have you seen his views on assimilation? Have you seen his views on living in the diaspora? Perhaps you should read a little background of WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT before you start telling OTHER that they don't have an idea...
because frankly, i really think you are the one "munsoned" up a creek without a paddle.... it truly seems you are the clueless one with regards to this forum and what the prevailing ideas and beliefs are in a KAHANIST forum.
Thats your opinion. One I think is very sad for you, but I am not here to fight with you.
Which part are you not understanding here.
I gave you the choice to PM with any questions you have not done that, but choose to make posts that are false.
Its your choice and franking I am not the one looking like the putz.
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There is just way too many personal attacks going on here. Come on kiss and make up.
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You are blessed with a family you know, even tho they have turned their backs on you.
What do you know about my family? Why do you think they "turned their backs on me"?
You had stated that along time ago on this forum, when I first joined. I always felt sorry for you.
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Rubystars: "...I don't understand why you guys are being so mean to her..."
Hang around a while, Rubystars, and sooner or later the Taliban will turn on YOU! :o
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Skippy why do you want to be cremated?
As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.
And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.
Then you're a self-hating Jew.
Well how nice of you ::)
Please look up the meaning of that word before you throw it around like that. Stop misusing that word.
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It's not personal.
Yacov I don't believe that for one minute .
I am not the only one with different views, I have not attacked you regarding your views on reincarnation.
Because its a personal view you have. Not that I believe in that.
Buts its your choice to have that view.
I don't mind debating, I do mind being personally attacked.
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You are blessed with a family you know, even tho they have turned their backs on you.
What do you know about my family? Why do you think they "turned their backs on me"?
You had stated that along time ago on this forum, when I first joined. I always felt sorry for you.
I don't know what you are talking about. Maybe I said my dad doesn't approve of JTF but my family didn't "turn their back on me".
Really? Hmm must be another Yacov I am thinking about.
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It's not personal.
Yacov I don't believe that for one minute .
I am not the only one with different views, I have not attacked you regarding your views on reincarnation.
Because its a personal view you have. Not that I believe in that.
Buts its your choice that have that view.
I don't mind debating, I do mind being personally attacked.
I didn't say I believe in reincarnation. I just repeated in a question to Chaim what I was told.
Reincarnation is a belief among some Jewish sources. Burning dead bodies is the worse sin someone can do and should be reserved for disposing of executed Nazis such as Israel burning Eichman. The same should be done with the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi terrorists.
Thats not the issue I was referring to, more of the Moth belief you have.
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Yaacov: "...Burning dead bodies is the worse sin someone can do and should be reserved for disposing of executed Nazis..."
Wait just a minute here!
Last month you told us that the worst sin a Jew could commit was to have sex with a non-Jewish woman!
Your list of "ultimate sins" keeps growing!
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The worse sin is relations with a non-jew, not burning dead bodies.
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בס''ד
The Rambam (Maimonides) teaches us that תחיית המתים (techiyat hametim - the resurrection of the dead) will be a miracle that HaShem will perform, and therefore it doesn't matter if the body has been buried for thousands of years and has almost completely decomposed or if the German Nazis יש''ו שר''י burned the body completely in the ovens of the death camps. Those who merit being resurrected will be resurrected miraculously regardless of the state of their body.
But sadly I must add that those who knowingly defy G-d's mitzvot (commandments) risk not being part of the resurrection. There are preconditions to earning the right to eternal life, and one of them is obeying G-d's mitzvot. I am not judging anyone and I don't know what G-d will do with Jews who knowingly desecrate and deface their bodies with the pagan ritual of tatooing or who cremate their bodies. But I do know that it is absolutely forbidden to engage in these practices, and that at the very least a Jew who does so is risking losing everything on the day of judgement. Of course, if someone does so out of ignorance, it is not the same as someone who knows better and has been warned.
In Judaism, the body is SACRED. G-d created the body as our tool to fulfill His will in this world. And we must do so the way He commands us to. G-d didn't give us the 10 suggestions or the 10 options, He gave us the 10 COMMANDMENTS. And to the Jew, G-d gave 613 commandments.
fidei, by saying that you will do to your body what Hitler did to the bodies of defenseless Jews is something I cannot comprehend. Are you allowing the Nazi mass murderers to make the rules for you? Hitler sets the standard for what you do to your body? If you really want to defy and defeat Hitler, and if you really want to honor your loved ones, then I think you should do what the Nazis would not want you to do - you should be stubbornly loyal to your Jewish faith and heritage and commandments and show the Nazis that they did not defeat you or break you, and that the sacred Jewish faith which the Nazis detested will gloriously live forever, while the Nazis and all other Jew-hating Amalekites will burn forever in the deepest bowels of hell.
As for your father, he did not realize what he was doing, and so we must pray for his soul. Your father was among תינוקות של בית רבן (the innocents who sin because they did have a full Jewish education). I am sure that your father was a good man, and we love him and we will pray for him. But you can do something now for his soul by correcting this mistaken path and doing what Judaism teaches us to do. And by convincing your mother הי''ו (HaShem should protect her and give her life) to also do what Judaism commands.
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בס''ד
And we absolutely should not personally attack people who post here. Even if they are mistaken, we should explain what Judaism teaches with love and patience, not with personal attacks.
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It's not personal.
Yacov I don't believe that for one minute .
I am not the only one with different views, I have not attacked you regarding your views on reincarnation.
Because its a personal view you have. Not that I believe in that.
Buts its your choice that have that view.
I don't mind debating, I do mind being personally attacked.
I didn't say I believe in reincarnation. I just repeated in a question to Chaim what I was told.
Reincarnation is a belief among some Jewish sources. Burning dead bodies is the worse sin someone can do and should be reserved for disposing of executed Nazis such as Israel burning Eichman. The same should be done with the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi terrorists.
Thats not the issue I was referring to, more of the Moth belief you have.
That's not my belief. It's just something my family in Israel said after my grandfather died. I thought it was silly of them to say it.
Is not your family Jewish? Or is it ok for them to have a belief different to others?
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These personal attacks on not right. I have heard Chaim say many times that he loves righteous Gentiles and all his fellow Jews, unless they have given him the gravest of reasons not to do so. Let's be reasonable. Certain things might be wrong under Halacha and I certainly respect my fellow Jews for pointing this out, but I do not believe every wrong rises to the level of a total abomination, condemning someone to damnation, or preventing him or her from reaching heaven. For instance, how can you reasonably equate a tattoo with homosexuality or a sin like murder. JTF has been supported by both secular and religious people through the years, and I am pretty certain Chaim is okay with this. You can point out that you disagree, but attacks should not be tolerated. If you really are so concerned that someone is not on the right path, but believe deep down they are a good person, pray for him or her, don't just cast them aside.
Please note, after this post, I noticed your reply Chaim, and it was eloquently stated as always. I agree that many times Jews can make decisions because they are simply not aware of the full Jewish laws and have not been educated. I also agree, once again, that attacks should not be tolerated, and the ultimate judgements will be left to G-d. O0
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It's not personal.
Yacov I don't believe that for one minute .
I am not the only one with different views, I have not attacked you regarding your views on reincarnation.
Because its a personal view you have. Not that I believe in that.
Buts its your choice that have that view.
I don't mind debating, I do mind being personally attacked.
I didn't say I believe in reincarnation. I just repeated in a question to Chaim what I was told.
Reincarnation is a belief among some Jewish sources. Burning dead bodies is the worse sin someone can do and should be reserved for disposing of executed Nazis such as Israel burning Eichman. The same should be done with the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi terrorists.
Thats not the issue I was referring to, more of the Moth belief you have.
That's not my belief. It's just something my family in Israel said after my grandfather died. I thought it was silly of them to say it.
Is not your family Jewish? Or is it ok for them to have a belief different to others?
Yes, they are Jewish. There are sources that talk of reincarnation but Chaim says it's just allegorical.
So your family can do no wrong?
You are treating people unfairly Yacov when you have openly admitted that you accept one thing from one source and than attack on the other.
My whole point to you Yacov, family is important, and we do what is best for them.
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בס''ד
And we absolutely should not personally attack people who post here. Even if they are mistaken, we should explain what Judaism teaches with love and patience, not with personal attacks.
Perfectly stated.
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Not to belabor the point, but re: "...Burning bodies should only be done as a punishment against evil people..."
On Yom Kippur we read that G-d has determined for the coming year "Who by fire...[will perish in the coming year]".
So...if The Holy One has so decreed who is to perish by fire in the coming year, how is it that the unlucky ones so decreed are commiting sin?
I realize that this is not necessarily the same as willful cremation of the deceased, but nevertheless my question is pertinent.
Answers, anyone?
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fidei, by saying that you will do to your body what Hitler did to the bodies of defenseless Jews is something I cannot comprehend. Are you allowing the Nazi mass murderers to make the rules for you? Hitler sets the standard for what you do to your body? If you really want to defy and defeat Hitler, and if you really want to honor your loved ones, then I think you should do what the Nazis would not want you to do - you should be stubbornly loyal to your Jewish faith and heritage and commandments and show the Nazis that they did not defeat you or break you, and that the sacred Jewish faith which the Nazis detested will gloriously live forever, while the Nazis and all other Jew-hating Amalekites will burn forever in the deepest bowels of hell.
As for your father, he did not realize what he was doing, and so we must pray for his soul. Your father was among תינוקות של בית רבן (the innocents who sin because they did have a full Jewish education). I am sure that your father was a good man, and we love him and we will pray for him. But you can do something now for his soul by correcting this mistaken path and doing what Judaism teaches us to do. And by convincing your mother הי''ו (HaShem should protect her and give her life) to also do what Judaism commands.
I understand what you are saying Chaim and thank you.
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בס''ד
And we absolutely should not personally attack people who post here. Even if they are mistaken, we should explain what Judaism teaches with love and patience, not with personal attacks.
Thanks for stepping in Chaim. :)
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.
Because I love you, I would strongly advise to avoid cremation whent the time comes...Gd willing you live to be 120 happy and healthy.
-
בס''ד
The Rambam (Maimonides) teaches us that תחיית המתים (techiyat hametim - the resurrection of the dead) will be a miracle that HaShem will perform, and therefore it doesn't matter if the body has been buried for thousands of years and has almost completely decomposed or if the German Nazis יש''ו שר''י burned the body completely in the ovens of the death camps. Those who merit being resurrected will be resurrected miraculously regardless of the state of their body.
But sadly I must add that those who knowingly defy G-d's mitzvot (commandments) risk not being part of the resurrection. There are preconditions to earning the right to eternal life, and one of them is obeying G-d's mitzvot. I am not judging anyone and I don't know what G-d will do with Jews who knowingly desecrate and deface their bodies with the pagan ritual of tatooing or who cremate their bodies. But I do know that it is absolutely forbidden to engage in these practices, and that at the very least a Jew who does so is risking losing everything on the day of judgement. Of course, if someone does so out of ignorance, it is not the same as someone who knows better and has been warned.
In Judaism, the body is SACRED. G-d created the body as our tool to fulfill His will in this world. And we must do so the way He commands us to. G-d didn't give us the 10 suggestions or the 10 options, He gave us the 10 COMMANDMENTS. And to the Jew, G-d gave 613 commandments.
fidei, by saying that you will do to your body what Hitler did to the bodies of defenseless Jews is something I cannot comprehend. Are you allowing the Nazi mass murderers to make the rules for you? Hitler sets the standard for what you do to your body? If you really want to defy and defeat Hitler, and if you really want to honor your loved ones, then I think you should do what the Nazis would not want you to do - you should be stubbornly loyal to your Jewish faith and heritage and commandments and show the Nazis that they did not defeat you or break you, and that the sacred Jewish faith which the Nazis detested will gloriously live forever, while the Nazis and all other Jew-hating Amalekites will burn forever in the deepest bowels of hell.
As for your father, he did not realize what he was doing, and so we must pray for his soul. Your father was among תינוקות של בית רבן (the innocents who sin because they did have a full Jewish education). I am sure that your father was a good man, and we love him and we will pray for him. But you can do something now for his soul by correcting this mistaken path and doing what Judaism teaches us to do. And by convincing your mother הי''ו (HaShem should protect her and give her life) to also do what Judaism commands.
Amen :'( gave me tears on that one.
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Not to belabor the point, but re: "...Burning bodies should only be done as a punishment against evil people..."
On Yom Kippur we read that G-d has determined for the coming year "Who by fire...[will perish in the coming year]".
So...if The Holy One has so decreed who is to perish by fire in the coming year, how is it that the unlucky ones so decreed are commiting sin?
I realize that this is not necessarily the same as willful cremation of the deceased, but nevertheless my question is pertinent.
Answers, anyone?
Great point!
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I believe in a very compassionate G-d. O0 I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.
I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father :)
G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.
Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.
Because I love you, I would strongly advise to avoid cremation whent the time comes...Gd willing you live to be 120 happy and healthy.
Thanks Doc, I love you too. ;)
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The irony of course is that the screen name "Fidei defensor" which means "defender of the faith" does not seem to suit a person with such mentality.
Fidei, I also had relatives who perished in the Holcaust. Hitler created a hell on earth for them way before they could even think of heaven.
Today, I don't whine about that, nor do I want to "enjoy" another hell on earth. I rather promised to myself that before anyone attempts to bring about another hell for my people, I will arrange an inferno party for them after which Dante's "Divine Comedy" will be taken as a bad joke.
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The irony of course is that the screen name "Fidei defensor" which means "defender of the faith" does not seem to suit a person with such mentality.
Many reasons why I chose that screen name. And really got little to do with its Latin meaning.