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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 23, 2008, 02:36:13 PM

Title: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 23, 2008, 02:36:13 PM
Israel and South Africa collaborated closely in rocket technology in the 1970's and 1980's.

South Africa provided Israel with the uranium and test facilities it needed for its strategic weapons programmes. In exchange Israel provided aerospace technology. This included the capability of building the ten-tonne solid propellant rocket motors designed for the Israeli Jericho-2 missile. These motors were the basis of two space launchers for an indigenous 'R5b' space programme. It seems that South Africa also planned to use these motors in a series of missiles to provide a nuclear deterrent.

Two shorter-range missiles (the RSA-1 and RSA-2) were intended for use on Cuban or Warsaw Pact troop concentrations should a massed attack be made from an adjacent country. The RSA-4 ICBM was also in long-term development, possibly to deter the United States or Soviet Union from sponsoring such an attack in the first place.

The original intended payload for the missiles was said to be the uranium gun-type atomic bombs developed in South Africa between 1971 and 1989. Seven of these weapons were built, each with a mass of about one tonne, a diameter of 65 centimetres and a length of 1.8 meters. Each device contained 55 kilograms of highly enriched uranium, producing a fission yield of 10-18 kilotons. Five of the weapons were configured as air-launched bombs, but were said to be adaptable to missile launch. It was planned during the 1990's to lighten and modernise these warheads, and use tritium-boosting to increase the yield to 100 Kt. A missile using the original devices would have to be provided with a heat shield, implying a total warhead mass of around 1500 kg. This would not have permitted the RSA-4 to reach intercontinental range. Presumably the boosted, modernised warheads, that were to have been completed by 2000, would have been under 700 kg and allowed the missile to reach New York or Moscow.

Substantial facilities for assembly, test, and launch of the rockets were built at the Overberg Test Range at the tip of Africa. Overberg was also used for Israeli Jericho-2 test flights.

As a cover for and supplement to the missile development, the R5b indigenous space programme was funded. This would use the RSA-3 and RSA-4 launchers. Four South African space rockets were built. Three were launched into suborbital trajectories in the late 1980's in support of development of the RSA-3 launched Greensat Orbital Management System (for commercial satellite applications of vehicle tracking and regional planning). The range was also used for aerospace and system testing for British, Swedish and Czech programmes.

Following the decision in 1989 to cancel the nuclear weapons program, the missile programs were allowed to continue until 1992, when military funding ended and South Africa officially ended its missile collaboration with Israel. All ballistic missile work was stopped by mid-1993. In order to join the Missile Technology Control Regime the government had to allow American supervision of the destruction of key facilities applicable to both the long range missile and the space launch programmes. The RSA-3 and RSA-4 space launchers were therefore cancelled in 1994.

Prime Contractor Houwteq had to dismantle its existing RSA rocket components, and retrieve and sequester technical data from its subcontractors. Propellant manufacturer Somchem eliminated the RSA solid propellants and rocket casings that remained in stock. Denel filled in its large engine casting pits at Somerset West and demolished its large-scale X-ray inspection equipment. The Hangklip static motor test facility at Rooi Els was converted to a nature reserve. The Overberg Test Range was allowed to remain for use by 'potential foreign partners'. Following these measures, South Africa joined the Missile Technology Control Regime in September 1995.

Houwteq's staff at Overberg grew to a peak of 500 in 1992, before the cancellations began. By 1997 the staff was reduced to 28. Houwteq's Ian Farr continued to market the Overberg facility for commercial launchers until at least 1997. Nothing came of these efforts, and it seems that the book was closed on further indigenous African space activities.

Since much remains undisclosed about the Israeli Jericho missiles and Shavit / Next space launchers, the material on the South African rockets provides some insights into Israeli programmes. The RSA-2 clearly corresponds closely to the Jericho-2, and the RSA-3 to the Shavit launcher. It is interesting that there has been no mention of an Israeli counterpart to the Peacekeeper-class first stage motor of the RSA-4. This may represent a 'reserve' Israeli capability to upgrade the Jericho-2 to ICBM range that has never been made public. However there have been reports of Israeli development of a MIRV capability for its missiles. The post-boost warhead dispenser for such a capability could correspond to the RSA-4 fourth stage.

from: http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/jericho.htm
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on April 23, 2008, 02:39:48 PM
Yep it's true, Israel and South Africa traded a lot. That's why South Africa uses the R4 and R5 (based off the Israeli Galil) and also uses many things used in Israel like their helmets. If you look at Israeli helmets and the South African helmets, their identical.

I have a South African helmet and you can take a look for yourself

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/helmet/37_1.jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/helmet/helmet1%20(Large).jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/helmet/helmet2%20(Large).jpg)
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 23, 2008, 02:53:36 PM
Cool! Thanks מאיר כהן
I love the fact that we collaborated with Israel!!
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on April 23, 2008, 03:25:55 PM
Cool! Thanks מאיר כהן
I love the fact that we collaborated with Israel!!

Heres the South African R4 & R5, identical to Galil

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/galilkit/pict1946hm6.jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/galilkit/97731_24.jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/galilkit/97720_22.jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/galilkit/97714_21.jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/galilkit/97329_2.jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/galilkit/412684779_cb56e6aa43_o.jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/galilkit/2ArmyGaurdDuty3.jpg)

(http://www.fwbairsoft.com/galilkit/inspection20bed1.jpg)

Ah the Galil is a beautiful weapon. I hear the new SANDF has new camo and still uses the Galil but I hear that they are no where near as well trained as the old SADF.

It's a shame Israel stopped supporting South Africa, I think it was somewhere in the 80's that they finally stopped selling weapons to them.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 23, 2008, 03:33:49 PM
Cool! Thanks מאיר כהן
I love the fact that we collaborated with Israel!!

Ah the Galil is a beautiful weapon. I hear the new SANDF has new camo and still uses the Galil but I hear that they are no where near as well trained as the old SADF.

It's a shame Israel stopped supporting South Africa, I think it was somewhere in the 80's that they finally stopped selling weapons to them.

I used the R4 in the SADF in Namibia in the 1980's.

The new SANDF is pathetic! It has poor training and no discipline!
The parade grounds are even overgrown with weeds!
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on April 23, 2008, 03:43:16 PM
Cool! Thanks מאיר כהן
I love the fact that we collaborated with Israel!!

Ah the Galil is a beautiful weapon. I hear the new SANDF has new camo and still uses the Galil but I hear that they are no where near as well trained as the old SADF.

It's a shame Israel stopped supporting South Africa, I think it was somewhere in the 80's that they finally stopped selling weapons to them.

I used the R4 in the SADF in Namibia in the 1980's.

The new SANDF is pathetic! It has poor training and no discipline!
The parade grounds are even overgrown with weeds!

I watched a demonstration of them loading up mortars like a bunch of monkeys, I barely see any whites in SANDF anymore.

I have some book by Osprey about the original SADF, cool book.

What did you think of the R4/R5? I have a Galil and I love mine. It's a little heavy at first but once I running around with it and lifting it up, it's not as noticeable and feels very solid. I'm not afraid to beat someone with it like a billy club or whip it in the back of my car. I treat it like a bastard step child.

R4 parts are hard to find, I have a gas tube, magazines and dust cover for a R4 but it's impossible to find the sights, stocks, handguards, or some of the other parts.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 23, 2008, 03:58:32 PM
I felt very comfortable with the R4, the R5 is not as heavy. In training with the R4 in the SADF, at first it seemed heavy but within no time you get very used to it! I really like the R4 and wish I owned one, but now in South Africa it would be illegal to own one!

This government is making it very difficult to own ANY weapons at all!
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on April 23, 2008, 04:22:55 PM
I felt very comfortable with the R4, the R5 is not as heavy. In training with the R4 in the SADF, at first it seemed heavy but within no time you get very used to it! I really like the R4 and wish I owned one, but now in South Africa it would be illegal to own one!

This government is making it very difficult to own ANY weapons at all!

Do you still live in South Africa? I had a girlfriend that lived there claiming she had an R5 civilian variant illegally. She was reluctant to tell too much information but she left the country.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 23, 2008, 04:29:09 PM
Yes! I still live in SA unfortunately! I have seen this country turn into a hell hole in just over a decade since Marxist rule!
The infrastructure is crumbling, the crime is out of hand and there is a white genocide under way.
We still have idiot white liberals who think everything is okay, in fact better than under white rule!
Everyday it gets worse!
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: Еврей on April 23, 2008, 04:56:10 PM
Very cool article!  O0
I look forward to the day when South Africa becomes a better place to live  ;)
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 23, 2008, 04:58:49 PM
Very cool article!  O0
I look forward to the day when South Africa becomes a better place to live  ;)

I look forward to that day too! Then we can link up and I can show you the country!  :)
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: Boeregeneraal on April 28, 2008, 05:05:07 AM
You know, I get this feeling in my haert, proudness, happyness and all those nice feelings, when I think about hopw our great peoples worked together, and really conquered the world...literally! G-D looks favourably upon our two peoples and our other righteous people's (eg americans, canadians, serbians etc) and how WE WILL be VICTORIOUS!!!

Great post ARISE...as always
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 28, 2008, 06:34:30 AM
You know, I get this feeling in my haert, proudness, happyness and all those nice feelings, when I think about hopw our great peoples worked together, and really conquered the world...literally! G-D looks favourably upon our two peoples and our other righteous people's (eg americans, canadians, serbians etc) and how WE WILL be VICTORIOUS!!!

Great post ARISE...as always

AMEN! Boeregeneraal! We WILL be victorious!!  O0
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: Boeregeneraal on April 28, 2008, 07:24:27 AM
YES!!!

btw, great photo's Pilman! Where did you find them?
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: TruthSpreader on April 28, 2008, 10:17:03 AM
I hope one day the whites will take control of South Africa once again. Though I thought that will happen anytime soon.

Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 28, 2008, 10:24:40 AM
I hope one day the whites will take control of South Africa once again. Though I thought that will happen anytime soon.



It WILL happen Duke Nukem! When the time is right!
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on April 28, 2008, 12:49:37 PM
YES!!!

btw, great photo's Pilman! Where did you find them?

I had them stored from different websites on the SADF and militaryphotos.net, mainly a compilation when I was looking to make a thread on a military website about "Galil useage around the world" and South Africa popped up.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: Boeregeneraal on April 28, 2008, 10:10:22 PM
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on April 28, 2008, 11:04:38 PM
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity

The R4 is basically the same as the Galil ARM variant.

The only differences are the gas tube (on the R4 it has a lip), the stock is longer (because average south african is taller than Israeli though I've heard many preferred the shorter Israeli stock), the front sight is much bigger, the dust cover is a bit thicker, and the gas tube appears to be a little different for more efficient gas system. Handguard is also much longer. It's slightly improved over the original Galil. Sadly the R4/R5/R6 haven't been produced for quite some time which is somewhat awkward because that is currently standard issue in SANDF. They are trying to produce a bullpup design called the Vektor CR-21.

(http://www.conjay.com/Vektor_CR21_Right.JPG)

Notice the Galil receiver in the picture and the CR21 body disassembled?

(http://liveguns.ru/files/guns/vektor_cr_21/02.JPG)

The Vektor CR-21 is basically the Galil but shorter configuration, the milled receiver is inside the polymer body.

I don't know the status of the CR-21 but the fact that South Africa isn't currently producing any of the R4's/R5's or R6's is a little...confusing. I can understand the R1 not being made anymore (The FN FAL) but theres no explanation otherwise. I highly doubt South Africa will adapt the Israeli TAR-21 either since the government currently has bad ties with Israel.

Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 30, 2008, 02:37:06 PM
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity


Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.

We used the R4 originally then changed to the R5!
The infantry and other units used the R5 generally, other units which did not see too much action used the R4.
Sometimes certain soldiers even used the Ak47 by choice, usually some of the Recces!
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on April 30, 2008, 02:44:04 PM
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity


Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.

We used the R4 originally then changed to the R5!
The infantry and other units used the R5 generally, other units which did not see too much action used the R4.
Sometimes certain soldiers even used the Ak47 by choice, usually some of the Recces!

I bet that Black Is Beautiful paint worked well too.

Yes my SADF book I have shows some soldiers with AK47's, maybe captured? I didn't know that R5 became standard issued, I always thought it was moreso issued to the police. I even seen many of the SADF with UZI's and Browning Hi-Power pistols.

Some also using the FN FAL (R1) but I don't see that too often anymore.

did you guys use any optics on your R4's or R5's or any other aftermarket parts? Also what do you think is the future of the rifle?
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: Zelhar on April 30, 2008, 03:23:47 PM
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity

The R4 is basically the same as the Galil ARM variant.

The only differences are the gas tube (on the R4 it has a lip), the stock is longer (because average south african is taller than Israeli though I've heard many preferred the shorter Israeli stock), the front sight is much bigger, the dust cover is a bit thicker, and the gas tube appears to be a little different for more efficient gas system. Handguard is also much longer. It's slightly improved over the original Galil. Sadly the R4/R5/R6 haven't been produced for quite some time which is somewhat awkward because that is currently standard issue in SANDF. They are trying to produce a bullpup design called the Vektor CR-21.

(http://www.conjay.com/Vektor_CR21_Right.JPG)

Notice the Galil receiver in the picture and the CR21 body disassembled?

(http://liveguns.ru/files/guns/vektor_cr_21/02.JPG)

The Vektor CR-21 is basically the Galil but shorter configuration, the milled receiver is inside the polymer body.

I don't know the status of the CR-21 but the fact that South Africa isn't currently producing any of the R4's/R5's or R6's is a little...confusing. I can understand the R1 not being made anymore (The FN FAL) but theres no explanation otherwise. I highly doubt South Africa will adapt the Israeli TAR-21 either since the government currently has bad ties with Israel.

Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.

The gun in this picture has bull-pup configuration like IMI Tavor and unlike IMI Galil which has traditional action and stock.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on April 30, 2008, 04:38:14 PM
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity

The R4 is basically the same as the Galil ARM variant.

The only differences are the gas tube (on the R4 it has a lip), the stock is longer (because average south african is taller than Israeli though I've heard many preferred the shorter Israeli stock), the front sight is much bigger, the dust cover is a bit thicker, and the gas tube appears to be a little different for more efficient gas system. Handguard is also much longer. It's slightly improved over the original Galil. Sadly the R4/R5/R6 haven't been produced for quite some time which is somewhat awkward because that is currently standard issue in SANDF. They are trying to produce a bullpup design called the Vektor CR-21.

(http://www.conjay.com/Vektor_CR21_Right.JPG)

Notice the Galil receiver in the picture and the CR21 body disassembled?

(http://liveguns.ru/files/guns/vektor_cr_21/02.JPG)

The Vektor CR-21 is basically the Galil but shorter configuration, the milled receiver is inside the polymer body.

I don't know the status of the CR-21 but the fact that South Africa isn't currently producing any of the R4's/R5's or R6's is a little...confusing. I can understand the R1 not being made anymore (The FN FAL) but theres no explanation otherwise. I highly doubt South Africa will adapt the Israeli TAR-21 either since the government currently has bad ties with Israel.

Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.

The gun in this picture has bull-pup configuration like IMI Tavor and unlike IMI Galil which has traditional action and stock.

Yes but the Tavor is pretty much a new gun, the CR-21 is not, just a Galil receiver that fits in a new body without the stock, handguard or top cover to reduce the length and weight. It's basically the same firearm, hardly revolutionary.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 30, 2008, 05:06:49 PM
"I bet that Black Is Beautiful paint worked well too.

Yes my SADF book I have shows some soldiers with AK47's, maybe captured? I didn't know that R5 became standard issued, I always thought it was moreso issued to the police. I even seen many of the SADF with UZI's and Browning Hi-Power pistols.

Some also using the FN FAL (R1) but I don't see that too often anymore.

did you guys use any optics on your R4's or R5's or any other aftermarket parts? Also what do you think is the future of the rifle?"

Yeah, I remember the "black is beautiful" not fun! really sinks into your pores!

The Ak47's were captured from the "terrs", but sometimes used by the "elite" teams such as Recces or 32 Battalion etc.

I don't think (I'm not sure!) that any optics were used!? I left in 1984, perhaps they were used later!
The "elite" groups would have probably used aftermarket parts as those guys frequently customized their weapons.

You are right that the police used R5, but so did other units, especially the infantry and the Parabats, but
there was actually a mix of R4 and R5 in the SADF.

The SADF in the early days of the Bush war used the FN FAL (R1), this was more frequently used by the Rhodesians in their Bush war.

The future of the rifle? The current "defense force" and police still use it. There is no further development of the rifle however under the new government. The white government were continuously researching and developing.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 30, 2008, 05:24:17 PM
Here is a website for the South African Special Forces Brigade/Recces:

http://www.specwarnet.net/world/sasfb.htm

South African Defence Force and the border war (1966-1989)

http://www.sa-soldier.com/
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on April 30, 2008, 05:37:17 PM
From: http://www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar/mainpage.html

At the start of the Bushwar in 1966, the SADF was partly equipped with outdated WW2 vintage equipment such as the 25pdr and 5.5 inch artillery guns, Vickers .303 inch MG's and 3" mortars. Main transport was the non reliable Bedford trucks, and the better Unimog light trucks introduced in the 1970's. The FN FAL 7.26mm assault rifle imported from Belgium, and manufactured under licence in SA as the R1 and R2 (short barrel) from 1964, was an excellent weapon loved by the troops. Its immense stopping power could neutralise an enemy even with a near-mis and behind cover. Its disadvantage was that it was a very heavy weapon. From 1979, SA manufactured the 5.56mm R4 and R5 (short barrel), under license from Galil in Israel.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: Boeregeneraal on April 30, 2008, 09:46:04 PM
Great discussion guys!!!!

Yes, South Africa's weapons industry was state of the art! You know we had the Eland's, and they were very small little things, but we used them against state of the art Russian T-55's etc. The Elands could creep up on the tanks, and start flanking them, and would then shoot the tanks most vulnerable part, the rear. Once the cubans or russians got the fright of their lives and sprang to action, the elands would continually drive in a circle around the tank, and shoot at it. Ofcourse, because the elands were driving so quickly in a circular motion around the tank, it was nearly impossible for the tank to hit the eland, which would be destroyed completely in one hit, whereas the elands calibre was smaller, and needed several hits to punch out the tanks. One cuban after the war whom was lucky to survive the tactics said something like this "the elands were like little cockroaches (the elands is very small, and a rather unorthodox shape) running around us and bitting little chunks off us, and we were unable to do anything about it!"
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: Еврей on April 30, 2008, 10:23:03 PM
Great discussion guys!!!!

Yes, South Africa's weapons industry was state of the art! You know we had the Eland's, and they were very small little things, but we used them against state of the art Russian T-55's etc. The Elands could creep up on the tanks, and start flanking them, and would then shoot the tanks most vulnerable part, the rear. Once the cubans or russians got the fright of their lives and sprang to action, the elands would continually drive in a circle around the tank, and shoot at it. Ofcourse, because the elands were driving so quickly in a circular motion around the tank, it was nearly impossible for the tank to hit the eland, which would be destroyed completely in one hit, whereas the elands calibre was smaller, and needed several hits to punch out the tanks. One cuban after the war whom was lucky to survive the tactics said something like this "the elands were like little cockroaches (the elands is very small, and a rather unorthodox shape) running around us and bitting little chunks off us, and we were unable to do anything about it!"

The Elad is definitely one cool machine!  O0
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/eland-REUOM05.jpg)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/eland.htm
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: Boeregeneraal on May 01, 2008, 01:30:46 AM
indeed!!  O0

now at fist this tiny "cockroach" appears useless against a russian tank, especially in calibre and armour. But the eland has speed, stealth and little exposure. Now if you look at the pic, you will see the typical savannah grass compared to the eland...and you can see how easy it is for the eland to sneek up right  behind those idiots in the tank. Now the largest factor that detrermined success, was we hadwhites behind the wheel....which says it all  O0 but above all, G-D was on our side
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: White Israelite on May 01, 2008, 08:51:49 AM
Arise, are you able to get any SADF surplus gear? I collect military equipment (LBV's, Helmets, Boots, Uniforms, Camo, etc.) I was wondering if you had your hands to access on any of these? I have the helmet but those lbv's used by the SADF were pretty cool. Wouldn't mind some camo either but their hard to find.
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on May 01, 2008, 09:22:45 AM
Arise, are you able to get any SADF surplus gear? I collect military equipment (LBV's, Helmets, Boots, Uniforms, Camo, etc.) I was wondering if you had your hands to access on any of these? I have the helmet but those lbv's used by the SADF were pretty cool. Wouldn't mind some camo either but their hard to find.

I can make some enquiries and look around for you! Their should be a lot floating around considering how many of us were drafted for so many years!
Just give me some time, as I'm a little busy at work at the moment!
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: Boeregeneraal on May 01, 2008, 09:36:00 AM
Lets talk about the....

(http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTYPEN/FRfotmi2/Rooiva.jpg)
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: Еврей on May 01, 2008, 03:24:19 PM
now at fist this tiny "cockroach" appears useless against a russian tank, especially in calibre and armour. But the eland has speed, stealth and little exposure. Now if you look at the pic, you will see the typical savannah grass compared to the eland...and you can see how easy it is for the eland to sneek up right  behind those idiots in the tank. Now the largest factor that detrermined success, was we hadwhites behind the wheel....which says it all  O0 but above all, G-D was on our side

At first it did appear that way to me... but when you combine the speed of the vehicle, the skill of the driver, and G-d... there isn't much that's going to stop it! haha...  ;D

The aforementioned site said that the Eland only had a 4 cylinder turbo-diesel... could you imagine how fast it would have been if they put in a little bigger engine??
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: Boeregeneraal on May 01, 2008, 09:13:29 PM
yes absolutely!!!

And I mean that eland was sooo quiet,I mean just imagine what gun crews hear in their loud tanks....and then comes this wheeled AT 'car'
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: Еврей on May 01, 2008, 09:32:21 PM
yes absolutely!!!

And I mean that eland was sooo quiet,I mean just imagine what gun crews hear in their loud tanks....and then comes this wheeled AT 'car'

Haha really? I didn't read that, but I sure believe it! They probably couldn't see it coming!

Anyway, what kind of helicopter is that, above?
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's
Post by: Boeregeneraal on May 01, 2008, 11:14:02 PM
oooh...i loooove that helicopter.

its the Rooivalk gunship O0

To this day, it is only rivaled by the Apache and possibly by the newer russian kamov. The Rooivalk to this day is the fastest attack helicopter and despite being twice as heavy as the newer European tiger, its still faster.

The Rooivalk unfortunantly never saw combat, which was due in the 80's. 
Title: Re: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980
Post by: AriseSouthAfrica on May 02, 2008, 04:33:53 AM
Wow!! The Rooivalk! What an amazing helicopter!