JTF.ORG Forum
Israel => Save Israel => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on July 15, 2008, 12:50:21 PM
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Has there ever been a nation in the history of the world as disgustingly self-hating as Israel, or a religion so horribly abused and twisted in its modern practice as Judaism? ::) >:(
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080715/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_lebanon
Israel Cabinet OKs prisoner swap with Hezbollah
By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jul 15, 8:56 AM ET
JERUSALEM - Israel's Cabinet on Tuesday overwhelmingly approved an emotionally charged deal to trade a Lebanese militant convicted of killing three people for two Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah guerrillas and believed to be dead.
The swap is due to take place on Wednesday under U.N. supervision at a seaside border crossing.
Hezbollah has given no evidence that Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev are alive, and has not allowed the Red Cross to see them since they were captured in a July 2006 cross-border raid. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told his Cabinet last month that Israel believes the men did not survive.
The deal, approved in a 22-3 vote, reflects the country's commitment to its soldiers that they will never be left behind in the field. It also will close a painful chapter from Israel's inconclusive war against Hezbollah, which was sparked by the soldiers' capture.
Zvi Regev, Eldad's father, said he was holding out hope his son might still be alive.
"I really hope this nightmare will end tomorrow," he told Israel Radio. "We will accept whatever will be. We need to be strong and accept it for better or for worse."
Critics have said that by trading bodies for prisoners, Israel is giving militants little incentive to keep captured soldiers alive. And although polls suggest a large majority of Israelis support the exchange, many Israelis were anguished at the prospect that Samir Kantar would go free.
Kantar is serving multiple life terms for the 1979 killing of an Israeli policeman, a civilian and his 4-year-old daughter. Israel says Kantar, who was 16 at the time, brutally beat the girl to death by bashing her head with a rifle. He denies this, saying the girl was killed in the crossfire.
The child's terrified mother accidentally smothered her 2-year-old daughter in a desperate effort to keep her from crying out while they hid in a crawl space in their apartment.
On Tuesday evening, Israeli President Shimon Peres is expected to sign a document pardoning Kantar.
"It's not a happy choice," Peres said before the Cabinet vote. "On one hand, we have the most terrible murderer. On the other hand, we have our commitment to our boys who were sent to fight for their country. It is our moral duty and our heartfelt wish to see them come back."
Cabinet Minister Isaac Herzog, who voted with the majority, called the decision to swap Kantar "a tormenting one."
"Clearly we opted for a resolution that fulfills our prime rule since the creation of the state of Israel, and this is to bring back our sons home, despite the toll," he told The Associated Press.
Construction Minister Zeev Boim was one of the three Cabinet members to oppose the deal. He said he was afraid the swap would make it harder for Israel to win the release of a third Israeli soldier, held by Gaza militants and believed to be alive.
Palestinian gunmen affiliated with Gaza's ruling Hamas group seized Sgt. Gilad Schalit three weeks before Hezbollah captured the two soldiers from Israel's northern border.
"No one should be surprised if Hamas will now raise the price for freeing him," Boim said. "There is some basis to assessments that there is no need to keep Israeli soldiers alive in captivity because Israel will pay a high price even for bodies."
This would not be the first time that Israel has paid a high price to return its troops. One lopsided deal that came under especially harsh criticism traded three captured soldiers for 1,150 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners in 1985. Some of these freed prisoners played important roles in a Palestinian uprising against Israel that began two years later. Other deals have included live prisoners for dead Israelis.
A U.N.-appointed German official mediated the latest agreement, which the Cabinet tentatively approved June 29.
Final authorization was put off until Israel received a report from Hezbollah on what happened to an Israeli airman who disappeared in Lebanon 22 years ago. On Monday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert accused Hezbollah of having submitted an "absolutely unsatisfactory" report, but government officials had said earlier that the report would not be a deal-breaker.
Over the weekend, Hezbollah transferred photographs, diary excerpts and an 80-page report that claimed Arad died but did not give a full account of his fate. Arad, then 28, parachuted out of his malfunctioning fighter jet on a mission over Lebanon in October 1986. A Lebanese militant group captured him, but reports that he was later transferred to Hezbollah and then to Iran have never been confirmed.
In addition to handing over Kantar, Israel also has agreed to release four other Lebanese prisoners and the bodies of 199 Lebanese and Palestinian fighters killed in clashes over the years.
The Lebanese prisoners will not be handed over until the soldiers are positively identified, either at the crossing or in Jerusalem, if DNA testing is deemed necessary.
Red Cross officials met with Kantar and the other Lebanese prisoners on Tuesday, and received their approval to return home.
Are there any words left to describe how perverse this country is?
Let's cut the BS. This is not the fault of big-level traitors like Olmert and Sharon. This is the fault of the sick and twisted soccer moms of Tel Aviv who want nothing more than to strike it rich, retire early and forget about being Jewish forever and the "religious" fathers of Jerusalem who believe that a "Jewish burial" is more important than adhering to the most basic and obvious standards of criminal justice alike.
I have nothing left to say. I am in utter shock and disgust.
>:(
Chaimfan
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C.F.,
I am sorry for this situation. It is very sad indeed. We have lost a lot of our people to the trappings of Western civilization. I dont know how to reverse the situation. There is a faithful and strong minority who are keeping the commandments. There is strong Judaism and unfortunately the majority of our people may be gone.
If you read our Holy Torah and look at the story of Exodus it reveals a scary fact. Only 1/5 of the Jews in Egypt actually made it out. Four Fifths were left and many lost in the plague of darkness. I feel that the story of Exodus is a prototype of the Jewish redemption {not my idea, heard from a rabbi}. We are losing a lot of souls, but the souls we gain are strong and full of Faith and Trust {EMMUNA}.
It is hard to read Israeli Newspapers without crying to our father in heaven. It is like another weight which rests on my shoulders when I wake up in the morning.
If it were only my fault then I could apologize for it. I feel so sorry about the lack of faith of the majority of Israelis.
muman613
:(
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If you read our Holy Torah and look at the story of Exodus it reveals a scary fact. Only 1/5 of the Jews in Egypt actually made it out. Four Fifths were left and many lost in the plague of darkness.
That is an excellent observation. I haven't read the Book of Exodus in a long time and it sounds like it would do me well to get back to it.
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This is a disaster. Unstead of releasing a murderer, they should be bombing the hell out of hezbollah to get the soldiers back. Kuntar shouldn't even be alive anymore.
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This is a disaster. Unstead of releasing a murderer, they should be bombing the hell out of hezbollah to get the soldiers back. Kuntar shouldn't even be alive anymore.
True
Four Fifths were left
Many went to greece instead of Israel
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Has there ever been a nation in the history of the world as disgusting as Israel, or a religion as self-hating as Judaism? ::) >:(
( I know no personal attacks, so ill pretend that im nice to him)
How the F could him or anyone else openly call Judaism, as self-hating, and why is it tolerated. Notice no one has said a word about his or other religions (because it if forum policy, not that their isn't much to be said). But this sentiment now openly reveals a lot of his true feelings.
And as any nation being digusting- YES every other nation is much more disgusting then the Jews. The Jewish nation is the best nation in the world, it has its own problems (that they should within themselves take care of), but Jews are like angels compared to any other nation. (And G-d says their is no comparison between Jews and other nations of the World in Tannach- even without any commentaries).
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Kuntar shouldn't even be alive anymore.
Most Israelis do not believe in the death penalty. ::)
The two-thirds of Israelis who support this butcher should go live in Lebanon, permanently, and see how much they'll be able to climb the ladder of success and retire early there.
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How the F could him or anyone else openly call Judaism, as self-hating, and why is it tolerated. Notice no one has said a word about his or other religions (because it if forum policy, not that their isn't much to be said). But this sentiment now openly reveals a lot of his true feelings.
Obviously some people have never looked up "context" in the dictionary. ::)
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How the F could him or anyone else openly call Judaism, as self-hating, and why is it tolerated. Notice no one has said a word about his or other religions (because it if forum policy, not that their isn't much to be said). But this sentiment now openly reveals a lot of his true feelings.
Obviously some people have never looked up "context" in the dictionary. ::)
So if I say "xtianity is the most evil, vile religion in the world, that only a complete moron would follow, and yeshu was a 30 year old homo who couldn't even save himself " (Im only bringing as an example of what someone could say) Would it be appropriate, and would you tolerate it under any context ???
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Hello,
Tzvi, I took a little offense at the way he presented this. But truely I do feel like we are doomed unless we get the Jews of Israel to wake up and see the reality of the situation. I have a secular Israeli friend and I like him, but it pains me that he has given up his birthright.
C.F I think I know what you are saying and I dont think you meant this as denigration. I have said things about the Israeli government which sounds similar. But if you are not born of Jewish parents and havent converted I can see that some may take offense at what you are saying.
Shalom,
muman613
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So if I say "xtianity is the most evil, vile religion in the world, that only a complete moron would follow, and yeshu was a 30 year old homo who couldn't even save himself " (Im only bringing as an example of what someone could say) Would it be appropriate, and would you tolerate it under any context ???
No comment. ::)
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But if you are not born of Jewish parents and havent converted I can see that some may take offense at what you are saying.
Even if someone is born Jewish, I still would not stay quiet at someone saying something deragatory agains't Judaism. And your right about also talking about Jews in that type of way also (of which he has no right, because who is he to give rebuke to Jews?)
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Very good Tzvi...
BTW, I love that torahanytime.com site...
muman613
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C.F is wrong in his analysis for the motivation behind this shameful deal. The Israeli public is being emotionally abused by the media. There is neverending propaganda to 'bring back our children' disregarding the fact the are dead. There is no voice who try to speak reason in this matter. If someone dares say the are dead he is eaten alive by the media.
Public opinion is never very rational nor wise. It is manipulated by evil people.
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Zelhar, it does not matter why most Israelis support this. Who cares if the motivation is "bring back the children?"? Israelis are adult human beings with the same faculties and capacity for reason that G-d gave all of mankind. Even if this is a purely emotional reaction on the part of Israel, it is still evil. There is no justification for tolerating such a gross miscarriage of justice.
To say that Israelis were "emotionally abused" into making this decision is akin to arguing that Ari was a victim of Tina Greco because she messed with his head sexually. It doesn't matter what kind of pressure is applied to people who make wicked decisions. Evil choices are evil choices.
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Tomorrow the arabs die correct?
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Yeah, right. >:(
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Are there any words left to describe how perverse this country is?
Let's cut the BS. This is not the fault of big-level traitors like Olmert and Sharon. This is the fault of the sick and twisted soccer moms of Tel Aviv who want nothing more than to strike it rich, retire early and forget about being Jewish forever and the "religious" fathers of Jerusalem who believe that a "Jewish burial" is more important than adhering to the most basic and obvious standards of criminal justice alike.
I have nothing left to say. I am in utter shock and disgust.
>:(
Chaimfan
100% Agree with CF - this is a complete BS to blame Olmert and the ilk - Jews are themselves to blame. However, I don't trust, one iota, this so called "poll" It was cooked up and fabricated.
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Tsvi, from what I know of Chaimfan, I think he is just expressing his outrage that Israelis would allow the release of a vicious murderer in exchange for some bones, which might not even belong to the dead soldiers. You might not like how it was written, but I think he's basically saying that Jews in Israel need to have more self respect, rather than trying to make deals with Arabs.
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Lisa, I edited my first post for the sake of clarity. I think it is a little clearer now. Israel today is a sickeningly self-loathing nation, and Judaism has been hijacked by the G-d-hating left. Most Judaism that is practiced today is Deformed, Conservative, or pseudo-Orthodox and very left-wing and terrorist-coddling. Obviously not all Israelis are self-haters, but the majority are.
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this is truly sick, i cant believe it
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Tsvi, from what I know of Chaimfan, I think he is just expressing his outrage that Israelis would allow the release of a vicious murderer in exchange for some bones, which might not even belong to the dead soldiers. You might not like how it was written, but I think he's basically saying that Jews in Israel need to have more self respect, rather than trying to make deals with Arabs.
So what? What does this post, this article, this entire subject have to do with JUDAISM?!? Who in the hell do you think you are cf to call Judaism "self-hating?"
And then CF you have the nerve to complain to Tzvi that he isn't considering context. CF, YOU are the one not considering context. You present some faulty poll result from skewed ynet and act like every Jew believes a muderer should be set free, when that wasn't the question asked. We have discussed this misleading poll again and again but you refuse to accept that 1. it asked a misleading question and 2. it ran on the presumption that the israeli soldiers were still alive, which impacted the results. And 3. If Israelis were presented with the facts and not bombarded on a daily basis with self-hating rot and capitulation cinema in the news, they would choose more wisely even despite the emotional provocation of the poll which appeals to conscience about freeing captives.
If you are told again and again and again that there is no other way, this is the only option, there is no choice or alternative, etc etc, at some point you take that for granted. Probably many of the 600 polled by the "center for peace research" had reached this point already. And they were asked if it will help free the soldiers, should we release lebanese prisoners.
How much money do you want to bet that when this yahoo.com article says "polls show majority of Israelis support the prisoner exchange" that they are either a. lying and distorting, business as usual or b. referring to the ynet poll of 600 people. 600! And one that didn't tell us the margin of error and refused to disclose any more information about the sample other than a "representing various sectors." As I have also said before, they could have conducted these polls in the heart of tel aviv for all we know. Any polling agency that named itself with the word Shalom in it, I wouldn't trust. And this sentence from that article was very telling: "The data, said the Steinmetz Center is vastly different than that of last month, when of 46% of those polled opposed the deal and only 38% favored it. " Why the big change in one month? Could it be the small sample size combined with the media propaganda campaign, combined with a leftist sampling used by the pollsters to distort the results? I never put too much stock in polls, but especially not in a case like this. You seem to put all your stock in ynet and the Israeli "center for peace research" as honest and forthright without any agenda or bias.
And in the very same sentence this yahoo article reveals that most Israelis are anguished that Kuntar will be released. Why don't they present a stat related to this? How bout a poll? They wouldn't dare take one. And what % of the population knows what Kuntar did and who he really is? The fact that they call it a "prisoner exchange" is again a distortion of language - the media's expertise.
CF, you seem to have an obsession over badmouthing and bashing Israeli Jews. It's one thing to sling mud at meeretz scum and olmert. It's quite another to assume (and constantly belabor) that every average Israeli on the street is deep down, just like the wimp traitorous meretz and piss now scum. This couldn't be more untrue, for one thing, and secondly, if it was true, then OUR MOVEMENT WOULD HAVE NO CHANCE OF EVER SUCCEEDING. It is precisely because the opposite is true, that deep down most of the Israeli Jews are proud Jews at heart, good people, and WOULD make the right decisions if they are told the truth, and are NOT self-hating...... This is why our message appeals to the Israeli youth, why this movement can succeed, and why Rabbi Kahane ever had the amount of support he had. You should consider this.
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It is also important to consider that once the "agreement" is already a foregone conclusion (the govt pretty much announced this was getting done, a while ago), this will influence the question of "do you support such-and-such"
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Dude, dude, dude. Chill out. I realized that my wording was poor and I edited it. Are you now going to disagree that most of Judaism has been hijacked by the left?
As for the body of your argument, we addressed this many, many times. The poll on Ynet never said "live soldiers" in it. It said "kidnapped soldiers". We went around and around and around this on many instances. No, the poll did not explicitly say "bodies", but it was taken when Olmert announced this deal and that the soldiers were probably dead. Why would a poll about a real-life news item assume an alternate version of what happened? If you disagree with the poll's results, wording, or motives, send Ynet an email--don't get mad at me for reporting it, verbatim, with the link.
As for the Yahoo item today, obviously the Israeli public is not "anguished" enough to stop it. This is irrelevant in any case. It doesn't matter whether they are supporting this deal with glee, or because they think it is necessary. That they are tolerating it, for any reason, is wrong, and must be condemned severely by the Kahanists.
KWRBT, we won't get anywhere by pretending that we don't have any work ahead cut out for us. Chaim is making progress by the day with Israel's youth, and public opinion today is far more tolerant of Kahanism today than it was just two years ago, but most Israelis still are self-hating. If you honestly do not believe that, and feel that all Israeli Jews are rightists who are just jumping at the chance to vote for a Kahanist prime minister this instant, then why spend any time at all trying to make us a mass movement?
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The release of Kuntar is one of the darkest moments in Israeli history.
The Jewish state and the Jewish people will pay dearly for this travesty.
May Hashem have mercy on those that don't support this suicidal act of insanity. And although it's painful to say this about fellow Jews, those that do support his release will get what they deserve, and won't warrant any sympathy when the worst happens.
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And although it's painful to say this about fellow Jews, those that do support his release will get what they deserve, and won't warrant any sympathy when the worst happens.
Amen to that. This is what I have said all along. Sadly the majority of Israelis are acting like kapos right now. The reasons/motivations why do not matter. G-d will judge this atrocity (the miscarriage of justice that is taking place right now).
I know that a lot of people do not like this rhetoric, but so be it. This is a time when we need to be in-your-face and offensive to average Israelis/Jews. They need to get the message that this is a terrible abomination.
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Dude, dude, dude. Chill out. I realized that my wording was poor and I edited it. Are you now going to disagree that most of Judaism has been hijacked by the left?
As for the body of your argument, we addressed this many, many times. The poll on Ynet never said "live soldiers" in it. It said "kidnapped soldiers". We went around and around and around this on many instances. No, the poll did not explicitly say "bodies", but it was taken when Olmert announced this deal and that the soldiers were probably dead.
Just today they have said that one of the two may be returned alive. My point was that the people were in general in a shroud of complete uncertainty over the fate of the soldiers and many thought they *might be alive. The way the poll was worded or reported seemed to me very clear that it ran on a presumption that a deal could "free" the soldiers. Thus it ran on a presumption as if the soldiers were alive. Not that the poll was saying one way or the other, but running on the hypothetical presumption, 'what would you do.' sort of question.
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If you disagree with the poll's results, wording, or motives, send Ynet an email--don't get mad at me for reporting it, verbatim, with the link.
But CF, I was not mad at you for reporting it. Why would I be? I disagreed strongly with your INTERPRETATION that you based on that article and the conclusion you drew from it. Which was, shall we say, a bit... derogatory. And I put out some thoughts on why that report may not be the end-all and be-all of Israeli public opinion, but you were staunch in your view that "all Israelis hate themselves, are weak, pathetic, and perverse" - I strongly disagree and find this attitude insulting.
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KWRBT, we won't get anywhere by pretending that we don't have any work ahead cut out for us. Chaim is making progress by the day with Israel's youth, and public opinion today is far more tolerant of Kahanism today than it was just two years ago, but most Israelis still are self-hating. If you honestly do not believe that, and feel that all Israeli Jews are rightists who are just jumping at the chance to vote for a Kahanist prime minister this instant, then why spend any time at all trying to make us a mass movement?
Maybe you don't understand exactly the complexity of this movement. But I would advise you to watch Chaim's videos more closely and listen to what he is saying. The elites who run the country, the self-hating leftists who have hijacked all the institutions, DO NOT represent the public at large. (and don't give me nonsense about "but they elected them." that banana republic is not a democratic state). It is not "public opinion" that is necessarily intolerant to Kahanist ideas, but it is the establishment that is. The ideas have appeal, and we strive to spread the ideas, because the general Israeli public is not scum, and so when they are exposed to the truth, they will be receptive to it. The label "Kahane" has a stigma attached to it thanks to the brainwashing, but the ideas themselves MAKE SENSE. And we can also break that stigma in time.
The establishment has brainwashed the public to a degree to think negatively of something that might be 'kahanist' whether they know what that means or not. It is not that we are going and convincing someone, hey your leftist ideas are wrong and silly, now become Kahanist. It's exposing people to an alternative that they've likely never heard. The right really offers no alternative in Israel. All they do is criticize the left. Presenting an alternative is key. You're into polls CF. Well I have seen in polls that the vast majority of Jews in Israel have completely lost faith in their "elected representatives" and the people running the state. There is a certain void developing where the people can see through these crooks and know that the olmerts will only bring treachery. The govt has lost the faith and trust of the public.
ANd by virtue of the fact that the Kahanist message is a universal message that can reach all Jews who are NOT self hating, they will naturally migrate toward these ideas and toward the truth. If the majority of the Israeli public was truly self-hating like you claim, then our work is hopeless, chas veshalom. You are not going to "convert" someone from piss now to be a Kahanist. Do you think CF that you can walk into Olmert's office, show him some Chaim ben Pesach videos and some writings of Rabbi Kahane and he's going to say "WOW CF, you were right all along, what was I thinking, I should really change. " ??? LOL But you can easily inform an otherwise righteous Jew who doesn't know any better or has never been exposed to Kahanist views, or thinks there isn't an alternative, or is fed up with the phony politicians, fed up with bowing to terrorists, or even one who has been accustomed to being capitulationist, show why this is not Jewish identity/behavior, you can easily inform him with proper information and truth, and he can strive for something greater than he has been allowed by his society and Israeli establishment to strive for or even think of. That person will find truth in our ideas.
You seem to say that the majority of Israelis are peace now traitorous self-haters but at the same time you somehow think we are transforming these same people into "tolerant of Kahanism" - This is fantasy land.
And No I did not and am not saying that the public is majority "rightists" jumping to vote for a Kahanist prime minister this instant. I am saying that many have traditional values, many are proud Jews, served in the army, want to defeat the enemy, want a proud existence, want a Jewish state of some kind, not a state of all peoples, etc. Are tired of arab terror, are tired of phony politicians and being lied to, etc. Presented with the true Kahanist message, because it has truth and Jewish values built into it, these people will find it appealing in many ways because they have the Jewish spark. THe peace now types are beyond help. They are actual traitors. G-d forbid if the whole population was like that CF, but that you think that shows you do not understand Israelis and that you are too quick to judge unfavorably. If the Kahanist message is appealing to the youth in Israel and if those ideas gain popularity, it shows that the people were genuine and decent in the first place, despite possibly being misguided. Otherwise it would be impossible.
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Please look at the thread that I just made. I think it will go a long way in addressing your concerns.
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Just today they have said that one of the two may be returned alive. My point was that the people were in general in a shroud of complete uncertainty over the fate of the soldiers and many thought they *might* be alive.
KWRBT, I didn't say that I personally knew or even thought that they were dead. I certainly would not trust anything Hezbollah or Olmert are saying. Still, the fact is that Olmert claimed at the time that he was announcing this evil deal that they were probably dead. The poll simply stated "kidnapped soldiers" and made no mention of what their status is. Since the poll was taken when it was publicly announced that they were likely dead, I do assume that the respondents assumed that they were.
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The poll simply stated "kidnapped soldiers" and made no mention of what their status is. Since the poll was taken when it was publicly announced that they were likely dead, I do assume that the respondents assumed that they were.
No the poll said Sixty percent of the Israeli Jewish public supports the prisoner exchange deal Israel signed with Hizbullah in an effort to free kidnapped IDF soldiers Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, even though...
You cannot "free" a dead body. You can free a live captive soldier. Therefore This Poll Asked a Question Assuming that The Soldiers were Alive and Could be Freed. But I'm tired of arguing about this point. And also, I still obviously disagree with anyone voting yes to that question.
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CF says: "Sadly the majority of Israelis are acting like kapos right now. The reasons/motivations why do not matter. G-d will judge this atrocity (the miscarriage of justice that is taking place right now)."
They're not acting like kapos. They're acting like sheep.
It's hard for me to believe that a majority of Israelis support Kuntar's release. However, even if this is the case, those that don't support freeing the vile child murderer should be taking to the streets and having demonstrations that border on riots to protest this perverse act.
But I guess that's easy for me to say from America.
I'm pretty sure most Israelis were opposed to abandoning Gaza. But this happened and the opposition was crushed.
Amona was more vigorously defended, but the result was the same.
The suicidal appeasers, leftists, and the gestapo like police agencies running the show in Israel apparently have a much stronger stranglehold on the sane Israelis than we can imagine from our vantage here in America. This is not to say that a substantial segment of Israel's population isn't nuts, but it's also obvious that the sane Israelis with instincts of self preservation have been totally brow beaten into subjugation by their leftist masters.
The question becomes what can happen to change this sad reality and whether such change can come fast enough to save the nation.
One thing is certain, Israel will not survive for long if it continues on it's present suicidal course of freeing mass murdering terrorists, surrendering land, and appeasing and negotiating with enemies dedicated to her destruction.
The Kuntar release--and the lack of effective opposition to it-- is not only an indictment of Israeli society and morality, but also a symptom of the general malaise of pandering and appeasement exhibited by the West towards an implacable Islamic enemy.
Israel and America are heading for a disaster of unimaginable proportions unless things change.
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No the poll said Sixty percent of the Israeli Jewish public supports the prisoner exchange deal Israel signed with Hizbullah in an effort to free kidnapped IDF soldiers Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, even though...
You cannot "free" a dead body. You can free a live captive soldier. Therefore This Poll Asked a Question Assuming that The Soldiers were Alive and Could be Freed. But I'm tired of arguing about this point. And also, I still obviously disagree with anyone voting yes to that question.
I never represented the poll as being worded in any other way. I quoted it exactly just like you did. Yes, for the record, a body can be "freed", if it is being held against the will of the family, and a proper burial for it is desired. So yes--it could very well mean a dead body.
(And I too do disagree with voting "yes" to this under any circumstance, even if the soldiers were alive. Everybody knows that you must not negotiate with terrorists.)
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I'm pretty sure most Israelis were opposed to abandoning Gaza.
According to polls at the time, they were not opposed to it. According to polls taken a year later, in August, 2006, with the humiliating defeat by Hezbollah fresh in their minds, most Israelis had changed their minds or at least were no longer sure. But I have not seen any recent polls about Gaza on any Israeli news site.
But this happened and the opposition was crushed.
The problem was that the Israeli right (a) was afraid of going to jail and being tortured (and indeed, those things did happen to the few resisters) and (b) the Israeli right was deceived into going along with the completely useless nonviolent "passive resistance" that was promoted by the stooges of the Yesha Council.
If the Israeli wakes up, and all who are opposed to these treasonous policies fight against it with their bodies, then our side will win. It is pretty difficult to torture and imprison 30 or 40% of the Israeli population. Even if the majority of Israel is self-hating or goes along with self-hatred right now (which is absolutely true), the majority of self-hating Jews will not have the stomach to physically fight 30% of the public. These are people who want to be prosperous and undisturbed. They will not sacrifice their lives to stop our movement if we respond to the Israeli Nazi army and police in kind.
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I'm pretty sure most Israelis were opposed to abandoning Gaza.
According to polls at the time, they were not opposed to it. According to polls taken a year later, in August, 2006, with the humiliating defeat by Hezbollah fresh in their minds, most Israelis had changed their minds or at least were no longer sure. But I have not seen any recent polls about Gaza on any Israeli news site.
This is a good example of why any poll results published by the bolshevik Israeli media should be taken with a grain of salt.
If you recall, when Sharon ran against Mitzna, one of the primary issues was the fate of Gaza's Jewish communities. Mitzna planned to abandon some of them. Sharon was strongly opposed to eliminating any of them. Sharon resoundingly defeated Mitzna, due in large part to this stance. So I think it's safe to say the majority of Israelis were opposed to the Gaza retreat.
Amazingly, immediately after being elected, Sharon did a complete 180 and vowed to completely eliminate the Jewish presence in Gaza under the guise of 'disengagement'.
So which should we believe...Sharon's election victory based in large part to his 'maintain Israeli presence in Gaza' stance or the polls showing Israelis in favor of 'disengagement' ? I don't know. But I definitely don't trust any poll results published by leftist rags like Haaretz.
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Just today they have said that one of the two may be returned alive. My point was that the people were in general in a shroud of complete uncertainty over the fate of the soldiers and many thought they *might* be alive.
KWRBT, I didn't say that I personally knew or even thought that they were dead. I certainly would not trust anything Hezbollah or Olmert are saying. Still, the fact is that Olmert claimed at the time that he was announcing this evil deal that they were probably dead. The poll simply stated "kidnapped soldiers" and made no mention of what their status is. Since the poll was taken when it was publicly announced that they were likely dead, I do assume that the respondents assumed that they were.
The fact that they were dead was reported in "Spiegel-Online" before weeks. The Spiegel knows it, because the German gouvernment was behind the deal. They interfered between Olmert and Nasrallah.
The man who lead the negotiations was "Gerhard C." a BND officer called "Mr. Hisbollah".
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,566171,00.html
Here is one article where is mentioned that the two soldiers were dead (29.6.2008):
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,562814,00.html
Behind all this was, as usually Frank Walter Steinmeier alias "The Muzzie Colloborator"
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The German government and the vast majority of the German people (yes, a far greater percentage than the part of the Israeli public is self-hating) is fanatically pro-Hezbollah and pro-anyone who wants to annihilate Israel.
My only question now is that I'd really like to know what fraction of the Israeli population thinks that the Germans intervening "on their behalf" is a good idea. ::) >:(
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These are people who want to be prosperous and undisturbed. They will not sacrifice their lives to stop our movement if we respond to the Israeli Nazi army and police in kind.
CF, I object your calling IDF an Israeli NAzi army - you loose credibility when you use such hyperbole. IDF is a people army and represent the society. You wouldn't call Israeli society as Nazi society, would you?
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I feel that we should all be praying for Israel now, more than we ever have before....Israel need's our prayers, her leader's (really) need our prayers, her Military need our prayers (the beloved IDF) and her people need our prayers.
Even if we don't agree with anything the current leadership may or may not be doing over there, we are still told to pray for our leaders and for everyone in authority.......prayer changes things, prayer is the key.....to real change, .......we can always fight and whine and complain, but praying will actually do more good.....
:)
O0
What the hell is wrong with Israel? How fast do they want to commit suicide. I guess its not fast enoughfor them.