JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on July 16, 2008, 01:09:11 AM
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Everybody,
I have gotten a lot of flak for some of my rhetoric regarding Israel's behavior regarding the Samir Kuntar/200 other Lebanese/PLO prisoners debacle. While I would like to apologize to people who truly misunderstood my intent and were offended (and indeed I did clarify what I was stating), I will not change my intent and purpose. The Jewish nation is committing a grave and abominable sin currently, and this is absolutely the correct time to be offensive about it and advertise it. My hope is that average Israelis or even American Jews got to see my thread and were very offended by it. I hope it stirs them to outrage and disgust over this travesty being committed by Israel's leadership and tolerated by her people, and perhaps even to look into their own souls.
Three points I would like to make:
1: We will get nowhere by pretending that Israeli cowardice and groveling do not exist. Whether or not the Israeli public supports this because they love Samir Kuntar (not that that is the case, albeit there will always be a certain percentage of Tali Fahimaite Jewish Nazis) or because they feel bad for the soldiers' families and want them to get their bodies back is not relevant at this stage; an injustice for which words in the English vocabulary do not exist is being perpetrated as we speak.
Granted--thanks to the unceasing work of HaYamin HaAmiti, Israelis are at a place now more than ever--particularly the younger generations--where they are willing to consider all viewpoints, including those once damned as belonging to the extreme right, such as ours. Kahanism has changed from a verboten dirty word to a political movement that can be discussed and debated, at least informally. Still, the majority of Israelis are self-hating right now. We need to change that. If that were not the case, JTF would not need to exist. Obviously, nobody is going to assert that we have no more work to do. There may be some exceptions here and there (i.e. the fact that 75% of Israelis, thank G-d, oppose surrendering the Golan, and the recent news that the Sex in the City ads got banned), but as of this moment more than half of Israelis favor appeasement and surrender policies (to varying degrees) on various issues pertaining to terrorism/jihad and/or feel sorry for the Arab Nazis (as in opposing executing family members of shahids, even though they encouraged them to blow up Jews and celebrate afterwards).
2: It is our job to prophetically speak to each and every Jew, and in particular each and every Israeli, in order to call them back to G-d and to appeal to their morality (and common sense) in the hopes that they will reject such clearly evil decisions as the one being made right now. Chaim Ben Pesach has been annointed by G-d with the ability to preach as a true sage and moral giant to his people, and this is the hour where this is needed most. One of history's most savage spree-killers, and 200 of his cohorts, are being freed as we speak, in exchange for a falsified report on an Israeli POW and a box full of what is likely sheep or camel bones. That is an ugly and odious deed. This is a time where we need to use ugly and odious and offensive language in order to describe it. Believe me--G-d will judge everyone who supports or even tolerates this. It is my hope that Israelis will be outraged at my description of their country as self-hating and their religion as having been hijacked by the G-d-hating extreme left. Perhaps that will spur them to want to change that.
3: I will use ugly language to describe evil deeds being engaged in by any religion, at any particular time. A few people thought that I was unfairly tarring and condemning all of Judaism. Obviously (to me) that is not the case, but if anybody genuinely got that impression, I do apologize. I did edit my words to reflect beyond a shadow of a doubt that I did not intend to do that, so I would urge you to check that in case you didn't see it yet. At the same time, I will not back down from reminding us of the plain truth that currently, the majority of Judaism being practiced is not even remotely true to Torah and is being used to support and justify all kinds of evil, anti-Jewish decisions that self-hating leaders love to make.
I don't think for a second that Judaism is the only religion being used and manipulated in order to justify wickedness. I have always criticized all evil committed in the name of religion, including my own. I am an evangelical, born-again Christian--about as fundamentalist as they come--and yet I have always pointed out truths such as the following, and will continue to do so whenever germane:
--The vast, vast majority of so-called Christians in the past two millenia have been such in name only. Almost all of them have been nominal phonies, and the majority have been vile Jew-haters.
--Currently, over half of so-called Christians are very left-wing, being either mainline Protestants (i.e. Methodists, Presbyterians [the Presbyterian Church even officially boycotted Israel for a long time], Anglicans, etc.), liberal nominal Catholics, or anti-Semitic Orthodox (i.e. the Russian and much of the Greek Orthodox Churches). The majority of self-identified world "Christians" today are anti-Israel and would hate an organization such as JTF.
--In times such as the 1000s CE and the 1490s, virtually every single "Christian" was an Amalekite fiend from Gehenom, and that is exactly where these devils are residing in right now.
--Almost immediately after the actual times of the Bible, the new Christian church became infested with all sorts of Jew-hating slime, such as the Nazi John Chrysostom, whose insane, pathological, ludicrous obsession with Jewry would have almost been comical had it not led to so much mass murder and holocausts. The fact that so many early "Christians" were seduced by his mental illness proves beyond any doubt that they were never saved (Christianese for going to heaven) and were amongst the legions of deceived cultists who were never part of the true church in the first place. There was no excuse for this evil, because of the obvious fact that Jesus was a Jew and the numerous passages in both Testaments admonishing the significance of the Jewish people.
--During the early Protestant Reformation, Nazis such as Martin Luther were tragically very popular and influential, and they played a big role in making the Shoah acceptable to European Protestants.
--Most importantly for our purposes today, the Arab "Christians" are every bit as Jew-hating as their Muslim brethren, even as they are being persecuted by them. These beasts support Muslim Jew-killers at every turn. They are not forced to adopt Muslim Nazi viewpoints out of fear for their lives; this fact is proven by the fact that even in America and Europe, where they have the freedom of speech to support Israel if they desire, the vast majority of them continue to be mouthpieces for Muslim Nazi mass murder. Exceptions such as the righteous Gentile and true Christian Joseph Farah of World Net Daily are very few and far between. Upwards of 95% of Arab "Christians" are pure Amalekite rodefs. Here are some facts:
a: Currently, the main Maronite political party in Lebanon is an ally of Hezbollah.
b: In the summer of 2006, the Maronites thanked Israel for saving them from genocide by dyeing their hair green and yellow and throwing wild orgies in the streets of Beirut in support of Sheik Nasrallah. Undoubtedly, the vast majority of Maronite "Christians" are preparing big welcome parties for Samir Kuntar.
c: Today, there are actually priests in places such as Syria who dedicate sermons to Sheik Nasrallah.
d: The Israeli Arab "Christians" accused the IDF of "invading" their churches in Nablus and Bethlehem during the intifada.
e: Many Arab Nazi terrorists, such as George Habash and his PFLP faction of the PLO, were of "Christian" background.
(By the way, some of you might remember that I did not protest when Fruit of thy Loins stated that all Christians living in Israel should be killed, because the vast majority of those "Christians" indeed do deserve death.)
I could go on and on, but you get the point. I will criticize all religion that, in its current specific practice, is making evil choices. Again, though, for the record, I of course do not believe that all of Judaism is responsible for Israeli episodes of self-hatred (any more than I believe that all of Christianity is responsible for pogroms).
Chaimfan.
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This is exactly true, C.F. >:(
I have talked to Nazi Chaldeans that still hate the Jews and are anti-Israel and pro-Fakistine and support their Arab muSSlim Nazi brethren.
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Everybody,
I have gotten a lot of flak for some of my rhetoric regarding Israel's behavior regarding the Samir Kuntar/200 other Lebanese/PLO prisoners debacle. While I would like to apologize to people who truly misunderstood my intent and were offended (and indeed I did clarify what I was stating), I will not change my intent and purpose. The Jewish nation is committing a grave and abominable sin currently, and this is absolutely the correct time to be offensive about it and advertise it. My hope is that average Israelis or even American Jews got to see my thread and were very offended by it. I hope it stirs them to outrage and disgust over this travesty being committed by Israel's leadership and tolerated by her people, and perhaps even to look into their own souls.
Isn't this the precise argument nik made about the Vatican's behaviors? But at least in his case, and to his credit, he did not blame "Catholicism" or say "catholicism is selfhating."
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Many specific popes were extremely anti-Semitic and even sponsored holocausts. Nobody at JTF was denying that. I did not even deny that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church today isn't a friend of Israel. What we did not like was the fact that the claims he was making were just plain nutty and made us look like wackjobs (i.e. that the pope ordered 9/11 and that Catholicism controls world Islam).
However, I have no problem saying that Christianity (the majority of it across the world) is a self-hating religion.
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the majority of Judaism being practiced is not even remotely true to Torah and is being used to support and justify all kinds of evil, anti-Jewish decisions that self-hating leaders love to make.
Not true.
the majority of Judaism being practiced is not even remotely true to Torah.
= Not true.
and is being used to support and justify all kinds of evil, anti-Jewish decisions that self-hating leaders love to make.
= Not true. Most Jews who practice Torah Judaism, practice Torah Judaism. They don't go around justifying the actions of politicians. This is not a concern for most people. It is Jewish federation and AIPAC types who do that stuff. What percentage of Jews are the leaders of those kind of movements? And most of them don't pretend to practice Judaism. Torah Jews go around and give shiurim, tzedaka, share shabbos meals, learn Torah in beit midrash (study hall), try to do mitzvot ,make a living, have families, etc.
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the majority of Judaism being practiced is not even remotely true to Torah.
= Not true.
And also, this is often used as an antisemitic canard.
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KWRBT, the majority of world Jews today do not practice Torah Judaism. The majority of world Judaism today is Deformed or closely resembles it. Everybody knows what Deformed Judaism stands for.
After the Deformed Jews, there is the Conservative branch (which is scarcely any better), and then there are fraudulent pseudo-Torah Jews (such as is typified by the early '90s organization "Orthodox Rabbis for [black NYC former Mayor David] Dinkins" and currently by the frauds in the various splinter movements such as Mike Guzofsky and David Haivri).
Finally, there are nominal, unobservant Jews who, for whatever reason, are not practicing anything at the moment. Most Jews in the Soviet Union, in its later stages, fit this category (note--I know that this was in large part due to persecution, but assimilating had become a way of life in any event to them).
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And also, this is often used as an antisemitic canard.
Did you see my remarks about world Christianity?
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It is Jewish federation and AIPAC types who do that stuff. What percentage of Jews are the leaders of those kind of movements?
Most American Jews do go along with these sham organizations, at the moment.
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Many specific popes were extremely anti-Semitic and even sponsored holocausts. Nobody at JTF was denying that. I did not even deny that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church today isn't a friend of Israel. What we did not like was the fact that the claims he was making were just plain nutty and made us look like wackjobs (i.e. that the pope ordered 9/11 and that Catholicism controls world Islam).
However, I have no problem saying that Christianity (the majority of it across the world) is a self-hating religion.
Yes.. well said.
Listen... I can go on and on about problems and issues I have with the Catholic Church and can state numerous historical travesties at the hands of the Catholic church.
However... conspiracy nutballing such as the pope ordered 9/11 is JUST AS BAD AS MUSLIMS CLAIMING THE JEWS DID 9/11. I wish Nik could see this... but he will never..
Most importantly Jew hating is 99% conspiracies 1% fact... whereas, Islam hating is 99% fact 1% conspiracy.
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Most importantly Jew hating is 99% conspiracies 1% fact... whereas, Islam hating is 99% fact 1% conspiracy.
I am sure that you meant nothing by this, but can you please explain it? It looks "off".
Chaimfan
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It is Jewish federation and AIPAC types who do that stuff. What percentage of Jews are the leaders of those kind of movements?
Most American Jews do go along with these sham organizations, at the moment.
What does it mean "go along with" these organizations? ANd what does it have to do with Judaism? These organizations have nothing to do with practicing Torah Judaism.
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These organizations have nothing to do with practicing Torah Judaism.
Exactly. Thus, it is my hope that mainstream American Jewry would immediately stand up and repudiate these disgusting shams and run them out of town on a rail. That is what JTF is for, though.
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These organizations have nothing to do with practicing Torah Judaism.
Exactly. Thus, it is my hope that mainstream American Jewry would immediately stand up and repudiate these disgusting shams and run them out of town on a rail. That is what JTF is for, though.
But like I said, what does it have to do with Torah Judaism? A Torah Jew why would he bother himself with AIPAC? It's an irrelevancy, some stupid 'political' lobby group. I don't understand what you mean. You think that in order for Jews to practice Judaism properly it means they have to occupy themselves with trifles and meaningless self-hating things like AIPAC? The opposite is true.
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Most American Jews do not practice Torah and, in their ignorance, actually think AIPAC and similar groups are really standing up for their interests. They are very stupid for believing this. That is why Jews Against Obama needs to reach them right now.
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You think that in order for Jews to practice Judaism properly it means they have to occupy themselves with trifles and meaningless self-hating things like AIPAC? The opposite is true.
A Torah Jew would expose AIPAC for the whores and pigs that they are. Most Jews in America are not observant, and do not understand how rotten the Jewish establishment groups ar.e
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Most importantly Jew hating is 99% conspiracies 1% fact... whereas, Islam hating is 99% fact 1% conspiracy.
I am sure that you meant nothing by this, but can you please explain it? It looks "off".
Chaimfan
Sure.
Anti-antisemitism is built upon lies.. anti-Islamism is built upon facts.
For example...
1) all of the 'Protocols for the elders of Zion' is fabricated... however... it has helped to create many norms in modern day anti-semitism. It helped form Hilter's ideologies... and its still widely distributed in the Muslim world today.
2) the idea that Jews kill christian kids and make maza from them was a falsehood from the middle ages.. but most Muslims believe today (thanks to Islamic propoganda)
3) anti-semites believe that the west and the world is controlled by a secret zionist conspiracy that steals money from everyone... and wants to control the world.
IN CONTRAST...
Every reason that we hate Muslims.. is based upon FACTS
1) they did perpetrate 9/11
2) the DO perpetrate 99% of all terrosit acts
3) the DO treat women like animals
4) They Do mostly deny the Hollocaust and that 9/11 was perpetrated by them
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What I meant was why the 1% exception on either side?
All of anti-Semitism is based upon satanic lies.
All of anti-Islamism is based upon a study of the Koran, Hadiths, and world events.
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CF. You are using loose statements
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I of course do not believe that all of Judaism is responsible for Israeli episodes of self-hatred (any more than I believe that all of Christianity is responsible for pogroms).
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And the rest of your post does not -touch- theology. But talks of how jews or christians have not abided by their religion.
Fact is. Israel's self hating leaders do not even claim to be religious/practicing/orthodox jews. Neither do the leaders of the big jewish organisations.
So this isn't some ticket for you to "criticise" judaism. Whatever that means.
What you do do, is you Curse the satmar rebbe(an anti-zionist rabbi). You claim he is not a rabbi. (he has rabbinical smicha, so he is). Neither jews or gentiles should be cursing jews. Especially not here. You have made comments about the judaism that religious members practice, and about the talmud. All suggesting some idea you have of jews practicing a jewish master race anti gentile based judaism. And this has been in reference to some jews here.
You are not qualified to comment on it. And your comments themselves have disqualified you from making any comment on it.
A gentile cannot say what is or is not judaism, any more than a jew can say what is or is not christianity.
You ask the question of if a Jew can marry a noachide (i.e. gentile). You are totally ignorant about judaism, and you want it to be something it isn't. (And you think jews here follow something that thank G-d they don't follow)
When religious Jews here say that jews are a family. You object. You are always wrong on anything you say about judaism. But whether you are right or wrong, there are religious jews here that can describe judaism. So you don't have to, thank G-d.
Let's not have jews or christians criticising judaism or christianity .
And Jews should not explain christianity, just as christians(or gentiles) should not explain judaism
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What I meant was why the 1% exception on either side?
All of anti-Semitism is based upon satanic lies.
All of anti-Islamism is based upon a study of the Koran, Hadiths, and world events.
Yes... well I fogot to see +/- 1 %.
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C.F., I wasn't offended by your rhetoric regarding the Kuntar release. I understand exactly where you're coming from and know your intentions are good.
All I would ask is that you don't confuse the amoral, despicable actions of the leftist, secular Israeli government with Judaism per se.
Yes, Israel is called 'the Jewish state' but I think we would both agree that in reality it is the state of leftist, secular Jews. At least that's who's running the show right now.
So it's erroneous to interpret the policies and actions of the Israeli government as being consistent with the teachings of Judaism.
That being said, I thoroughly understand your disappointment and anger over Kuntar's release. I just don't think it's right to condemn Judaism as a religion for being responsible for it. But I know you didn't mean to offend anyone and no offense was taken by me.
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Fact is. Israel's self hating leaders do not even claim to be religious/practicing/orthodox jews. Neither do the leaders of the big jewish organisations.
Show me where I claimed that they do.
So this isn't some ticket for you to "criticise" judaism. Whatever that means.
So, you don't believe in criticizing any Jew who ever does wrong? I guess your next line proves that you do not. ::)
What you do do, is you Curse the satmar rebbe(an anti-zionist rabbi). You claim he is not a rabbi. (he has rabbinical smicha, so he is)
Please explain. All kinds of people these days claim to be "rabbis". Do you think Deformed "rabbis" are legitimate?
You have made comments about the judaism that religious members practice, and about the talmud.
You better provide some evidence for that one, buddy. I demand a quote of me bashing the Talmud.
All suggesting some idea you have of jews practicing a jewish master race anti gentile based judaism. And this has been in reference to some jews here.
Don't say "some Jews here" when you know exactly who I meant.
You are not qualified to comment on it. And your comments themselves have disqualified you from making any comment on it.
LOL that's a convenient answer. ::)
You ask the question of if a Jew can marry a noachide (i.e. gentile). You are totally ignorant about judaism, and you want it to be something it isn't. (And you think jews here follow something that thank G-d they don't follow)
So now asking a question proves that I am an anti-Semite? ::)
When religious Jews here say that jews are a family. You object.
Sorry, your blatant distortion ain't gettin' you nowhere, bud.
You are always wrong on anything you say about judaism.
Umm, I'm gonna need some sources for that one besides your word for it.
But whether you are right or wrong, there are religious jews here that can describe judaism. So you don't have to, thank G-d.
Funny, I do recall that the last time you started a flame war, most of the forum's Jews sided with me. Care to explain why DownwithIslam said everything I did and more? Or Dr. Dan? Or Lubab? Are they all part of my grand anti-Semitic conspiracy too? ::)
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So it's erroneous to interpret the policies and actions of the Israeli government as being consistent with the teachings of Judaism.
That being said, I thoroughly understand your disappointment and anger over Kuntar's release. I just don't think it's right to condemn Judaism as a religion for being responsible for it. But I know you didn't mean to offend anyone and no offense was taken by me.
I didn't do that, and I edited my thread to reflect that beyond doubt.
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If Jews and Christians just lived the way the Bible tells them to we wouldn't have any problems. :)
With muslims, they problem arises when they live the way their toilet paper book tells them to.
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Fact is. Israel's self hating leaders do not even claim to be religious/practicing/orthodox jews. Neither do the leaders of the big jewish organisations.
Show me where I claimed that they do.
So this isn't some ticket for you to "criticise" judaism. Whatever that means.
So, you don't believe in criticizing any Jew who ever does wrong? I guess your next line proves that you do not. ::)
What you do do, is you Curse the satmar rebbe(an anti-zionist rabbi). You claim he is not a rabbi. (he has rabbinical smicha, so he is)
Please explain. All kinds of people these days claim to be "rabbis". Do you think Deformed "rabbis" are legitimate?
You have made comments about the judaism that religious members practice, and about the talmud.
You better provide some evidence for that one, buddy. I demand a quote of me bashing the Talmud.
All suggesting some idea you have of jews practicing a jewish master race anti gentile based judaism. And this has been in reference to some jews here.
Don't say "some Jews here" when you know exactly who I meant.
You are not qualified to comment on it. And your comments themselves have disqualified you from making any comment on it.
LOL that's a convenient answer. ::)
You ask the question of if a Jew can marry a noachide (i.e. gentile). You are totally ignorant about judaism, and you want it to be something it isn't. (And you think jews here follow something that thank G-d they don't follow)
So now asking a question proves that I am an anti-Semite? ::)
When religious Jews here say that jews are a family. You object.
Sorry, your blatant distortion ain't gettin' you nowhere, bud.
You are always wrong on anything you say about judaism.
Umm, I'm gonna need some sources for that one besides your word for it.
But whether you are right or wrong, there are religious jews here that can describe judaism. So you don't have to, thank G-d.
Funny, I do recall that the last time you started a flame war, most of the forum's Jews sided with me. Care to explain why DownwithIslam said everything I did and more? Or Dr. Dan? Or Lubab? Are they all part of my grand anti-Semitic conspiracy too? ::)
REGARDING cursing
Chaim doesn't even curse yekutiel. He has said it is forbidden, much to your
That means, you don't curse the Satmar Rebbe.
You or DWI don't curse me or other jews here.
There may be some exceptions to the rule about not cursing jews. Chaim is the expert there.
But he certainly would not curse the satmar rebbe.
REGARDING your attitude to the talmud. I vaguely recalled something. And that person apologising to chaim about it on an ask jtf. If it wasn't you then i'm happy to be wrong. I would point out though that the people who accuse any jews of being a "master race", would in every occassion (except perhaps yours), be the same people that would say it is in the talmud. (the talmud is huge and in aramaic, and it is easy for people to make up quotes about it, and for others to believe them).
And what do you mean then about it being legitimate to criticise "Some of judaism". If you are referring to nothing in the jewish bible, and nothing in the talmud.
What are you talking about with these loose statements.
Criticising self hating secular jews? liberal ministers that don't believe in the torah. Is that "some of judaism" to you ??
REGARDING me bringing up you asking the question of if a jew can marry a noachide. That was to demonstrate that you are ignorant, and that your ignorance disqualifies you from explaining judaism or criticising judaism. Besides the fact that we should not be criticising judaism or christianity on this forum.
REGARDING the family point.
tzvi made the point - correctly - that jews are a family, and a nation, separate from the other nations. We have to separate ourselves. Jews do not look at jews and gentiles as one family. Human beings, yes. Deserving of respect, yes. We can work towards common goals, e.t.c.
The discussion was in a very stupidly titled thread started by a Christian, called "Christian Idol Worship". topic=23426.0 Eventually he regretted even starting the thread..
REGARDING your claim that jews side with you against me. This is not exactly the case. The only jew - and it was a suprise to discover he was jewish - who supports you, is DWI. (you are basically the same person, except you are gentile)
When you called me a troll, Dr Dan defended me, and I told him to stop, and criticised him for elongating the interruption of intellectual content. I wanted to keep it to the torah and science discussion about the age of the earth . I didn't want it to turn into an argument over whether I was a troll. Regardless of the fact that he was on my side. I've criticised him over many things, and so he has objected to me for many reasons but never related to you. And never defending you!
Lulab just avoids any disagreement, maybe it upsets him. He wouldn't even mention your name or my name or DWI's in talk of a dispute. He doesn't get involved. Of course, neither you(CF) or DWI, disagree with him. And DWI even seems to object to anybody saying that the lubavitcher rebbe is not the messiah. Such statements probably upset lulab. That doesn't make them wrong.
DWI and you just act like Chaim's dogs. And DWI is also Lulab's dog. You criticise Yekutiel for being a dog trainer, but if Chaim and Lulab were dog trainers we'd have alot less trouble. (dogs aren't all bad, they can be good or bad, alot of what you or DWI did as a dog on the splinter forum was justified, and pre greco, alot wasn't. So i'm not criticising all your dog like behaviour, just giving an assessment of it with an appropriate analogy). Chaim and Lulab themselves would not engage in a fraction, or any, of the wild, immature behaviour and cursing that you(CF) and/or DWI engage in.
Who else defends you / defends you against me, besides DWI.
KahaneBT and Tzvi and myself have been in agreement and on the same side against DWI throughout this. All of us are jews, religious jews.
And my point in all of this, besides just replying to you.
Just so we don't lose track here.
You make some vague remark that you can criticise judaism or christianity
You do not define what that means with examples. You just make vague comments about all of judaism and some of judaism.. All of christianity or some of christianity.
And without examples of what you mean, you are just trying to justify whatever you want, by insisting on a loose definition.
And that is why I have gone through those examples. Not for the purpose of attacking you, but for the purposes of defining the parameters of what I think is a VERY dangerous statement.
That you want to criticise judaism and christianity .. And you expect people to OK that.
You are a complete ignoramous on judaism anyway. As shown by your question of whether a jew can marry a noachide(a noachide being a gentile). Infact, even if the only rabbi you know of is rabbi kahane. He mentioned that a jew cannot marry a non-jew, in almost every talk he gave. Because he was often accused of racism for saying that when/if he becomes prime minister, he would ban intermarriage. And he said that any orthdoox rabbi would tell you that a jew cannot marry a non-jew, that's judaism. This is a kahanist forum and you haven't heard rabbi kahane say this?!
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q_q, clearly everybody has moved on and is interested in discussing news and daily events about Israel and the United States, except you.
Nobody else is trying to keep this [censored] match going--nobody. Feel free to keep on having conversations with yourself.
I am moving on now--except that I will part with one question: when were you made an admin of this forum that we now have this rule that we cannot criticize Judaism or Christianity under any circumstances? I guess Chaim has been busy with the appointments recently. ::) So... now, it is against the rules for me to say that virtually all of Christianity in 1490 was Nazi? Are you going to ban me for saying that?
Please don't ban me! Give me a second chance!
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See the end of my post where I mentioned the purpose of this. Figuring out what you mean by some of christianity or some of judaism.
so you defined what you mean in terms of some of christianity being bad.
What you meant was not christianity. But Christians for hundreds of years. (I would say for 2000 years!)
I think righteous pro israel philo-semitic christians are a very recent phenomena.
Infact, I think Chaim mentioned that it was after the 6 day war that we got a huge christian surge of love for israel. Because of the kiddush hashem of the 6 day war, the world realised we are G-d's people.
Talking about crusades and such, is not criticising christianity itself.
There is nothing in the new testament that justifies crusades.
I wouldn't call that criticising some of christianity.
What do you mean by criticising some of judaism though ?
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CF. You are using loose statements
"
I of course do not believe that all of Judaism is responsible for Israeli episodes of self-hatred (any more than I believe that all of Christianity is responsible for pogroms).
"
And the rest of your post does not -touch- theology. But talks of how jews or christians have not abided by their religion.
Fact is. Israel's self hating leaders do not even claim to be religious/practicing/orthodox jews. Neither do the leaders of the big jewish organisations.
So this isn't some ticket for you to "criticise" judaism. Whatever that means.
What you do do, is you Curse the satmar rebbe(an anti-zionist rabbi). You claim he is not a rabbi. (he has rabbinical smicha, so he is). Neither jews or gentiles should be cursing jews. Especially not here. You have made comments about the judaism that religious members practice, and about the talmud. All suggesting some idea you have of jews practicing a jewish master race anti gentile based judaism. And this has been in reference to some jews here.
You are not qualified to comment on it. And your comments themselves have disqualified you from making any comment on it.
A gentile cannot say what is or is not judaism, any more than a jew can say what is or is not christianity.
You ask the question of if a Jew can marry a noachide (i.e. gentile). You are totally ignorant about judaism, and you want it to be something it isn't. (And you think jews here follow something that thank G-d they don't follow)
When religious Jews here say that jews are a family. You object. You are always wrong on anything you say about judaism. But whether you are right or wrong, there are religious jews here that can describe judaism. So you don't have to, thank G-d.
Let's not have jews or christians criticising judaism or christianity .
And Jews should not explain christianity, just as christians(or gentiles) should not explain judaism
I don't mean to chime in, but CF wasn't criticizing Torah or Judaism...even though what you are saying, qq, about people who do criticize Torah and Judaism is correct. CF wasn't doing that. And if he ever did in the past, Chaim corrected him for it.
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"I will not back down from reminding us of the plain truth that currently, the majority of Judaism being practiced is not even remotely true to Torah and is being used to support and justify all kinds of evil, anti-Jewish decisions that self-hating leaders love to make."
CF, no offense..but you aren't qualified to say that since you aren't Jewish or even studied Jewish texts very heavily.
Yes there are a lot of Jews who do not follow Judaism properly...In fact, just about every Jew doesn't practice Judaism properly one way or another...we are human...no one can practice Judaism perfectly...and for that matter any specific theology.
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KWRBT, the majority of world Jews today do not practice Torah Judaism. The majority of world Judaism today is Deformed or closely resembles it. Everybody knows what Deformed Judaism stands for.
After the Deformed Jews, there is the Conservative branch (which is scarcely any better), and then there are fraudulent pseudo-Torah Jews (such as is typified by the early '90s organization "Orthodox Rabbis for [black NYC former Mayor David] Dinkins" and currently by the frauds in the various splinter movements such as Mike Guzofsky and David Haivri).
Finally, there are nominal, unobservant Jews who, for whatever reason, are not practicing anything at the moment. Most Jews in the Soviet Union, in its later stages, fit this category (note--I know that this was in large part due to persecution, but assimilating had become a way of life in any event to them).
CF, leave it to Jews to criticize Jews...I prefer you stick with christians adn criticizing some of their improper behavior that is "unchristian".
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Dan, it is fine that you disagree with me. I don't need to repeat what I said anymore. The whole reason I made that thread was to clarify what I believed.
And q_q, if you read my first post you surely saw me acknowledge many times that the vast majority of historical Christianity has been Jew-hating. But how in the least is that any different from how the vast majority of pagan and non-Christian societies have treated Jews?
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you started off with a subject for the thread of
Criticizing judaism/other religions.
Now instead of just saying the way christians have behaved for 2000 years, you say, Criticizing historical christianity. OK. Most religious christians, believing in their text, persecuted the jews terrible for 2000 years.. IMO, far more scary than the muslims.
so OK. Historical christianity.
What are you saying about criticising judaism though?
historical judaism? what do you mean criticizing judaism?
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Most religious christians, believing in their text,
What Christian text calls for committing jihads against non-Christians?
IMO, far more scary than the muslims.
How so? ???
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Chaimfan, you write extremely well. I am pretty sure it requires too much reading comprehension for some people. Instead of criticizing what you wrote, they should try to learn from you instead.
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Thanks, but I do not write well on my own. Anything "good" that comes out of me is what G-d chose to give to me for a reason and a season, for His purposes, and not anything inherent in me.
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Anyone who tries to insinuate that Chaimfan don't like jews needs to take some serious medication.
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Aww, thanks... I really do not need or deserve this kind of support, but what you said is funny if nothing else... :::D
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Most religious christians, believing in their text,
What Christian text calls for committing jihads against non-Christians?
none. But they believe in their texts.
And they did crusades.
IMO, far more scary than the muslims.
How so? ???
muslims behaving badly, are just like wild animals.
christians when they behaved badly,, were very cold like the nazis.
I used to have frequent nightmares of what it would have been like as a jew linving under christians when they are forcing jews to convert to christianity or die, and jews jumped into the fire rather than convert.
I know how anything that christians don't like, becomes the work of satan.
I have heard that they used a verse in John criticising some jews, and used it to say that jews are children of Satan.
And I can imagine christians believed that jews were -satan-, or his children. And as they were burning jews, would call out from their bibles, while pushing a cross towards their faces.
I read once of how a christian pastor started exploring historical christian anti-semitism, when a jewish woman came to visit his church(she was obviously secular since it is forbidden, but anyhow). The pastor passed a big crucifix over in the direction of the congregants. And a shiver went through her. The pastor noticed that and was troubled by it. And he investigated christian anti-semitism.
Christian anti-semitism is very chilling.. Very cold and calculating. They would torture jews. Like nazis.
Muslims aren't like that, they are just wild animals. They are out of control.
Actually we have a tradition of how esau (who represents christianity) bit jacob's neck when they embraced, but by a miracle jacob's neck turned to marble and esau's teeth broke.
Yishmael(who represents muslims), however, was a wild man. Yes, they rip out organs, but they murder each other all the time.
I think that christians have changed. They are not many religious christians in britain so we don't hear of them. And they are very toned down, and don't have power.
But in America, you have religious christians who have changed.
But Esau represents what christians have been like, and I think what christians could be like if they are bad.. And they start looking at jews as satan..
I have an image of them chanting the new testament while burning jews, as if possessed. While calling jews satan.
Far Far scarier in my mind than muslims.
I haven't ever had nightmares about muslims. They're a wild bunch. I'm a bit worried about iran, but this is a recent development.
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none. But they believe in their texts.
And they did crusades.
Check some history--the Crusades and Inquisition were executed on the basis of papal authority and commandment, not Scripture.
I have heard that they used a verse in John criticising some jews, and used it to say that jews are children of Satan.
Have you actually ever read the Book of John or any of the rest of the New Testament?
Did you know that John was Jewish?
Isn't the person who didn't want any facet of the current practice of their faith criticized by an ousider calling the kettle black?
And I can imagine christians believed that jews were -satan-, or his children. And as they were burning jews, would call out from their bibles, while pushing a cross towards their faces.
What does real Christianity or the NT have to do with insane mobs of illiterate peasants (most of whom wouldn't know what a Bible was if one fell into their laps) whipped into a frenzy by the demagogues they blindly followed?
I read once of how a christian pastor started exploring historical christian anti-semitism, when a jewish woman came to visit his church(she was obviously secular since it is forbidden, but anyhow). The pastor passed a big crucifix over in the direction of the congregants. And a shiver went through her. The pastor noticed that and was troubled by it. And he investigated christian anti-semitism.
When did I ever deny the reality of historical Christian anti-Semitism?
Christian anti-semitism is very chilling.. Very cold and calculating. They would torture jews. Like nazis.
Muslims aren't like that, they are just wild animals. They are out of control.
I think Goldwasser and Regev would beg to differ with you if they could talk.
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what is wrong with your logic. Probably a psychological problem on your part, it always is with people whose logic is so wrong.
I said that christians believed the new testament. (that's why they were christians)
And that they killed jews.
That doesn't mean that they did it because the new testament told them to.
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what is wrong with your logic. Probably a psychological problem on your part, it always is with people whose logic is so wrong.
Whoa, great comeback! You really put me in my place! :)
But for the record--just because I am not a selfless pacifist devoted to world harmony like your NK rabbis doesn't make me Amalek!
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cf and qq
you both have to stop with these personal attacks...
the discussion you are having is fine by me...but please both of you..refrain from putting the other one down.
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Please everyone, calm down.
Let's not go at each other's throats or I'll have to lock this thread.
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what is wrong with your logic. Probably a psychological problem on your part, it always is with people whose logic is so wrong.
Whoa, great comeback! You really put me in my place! :)
it's no big deal..
Most americans are left wing.. voting obama. They have a psychological block that stops them thinking.
It shouldn't be any suprise that even amongst the right, who are able to think correctly enough regarding the muslims, there will be some who will also have psychological blocks that stop them understanding other things.
People are just not logical or intellectual. Very few are. And usually not both.
Rabbi Kahane once said, the common people have alot of common sense and lead common lives, but they are not thinkers, they don't have much vision. And the thinkers/visionaries often have no common sense.
And so when I point out your logical problem, I point out also, that really the fault in you is not a logical one.
The same with dealing with the left. Logic has nothing to do with their problem. It's something blocking the logic.
So this diagnosis applies to the majourity of people. And even the saner minority - the right - of which you are a part, has the fault too, but in other areas of the mind.
It's not really a put down.. I think this is too deep for you, - especially as it's about you.
You talk about criticism e.g. of ovadia yosef, but just mock him with plays on his name. I just don't think you're a deep thinker to really grasp this discussion.
It's not a fault specific to you. Consider it a compliement that you are at least a right winger, and so not part of the epidemic of similar and more dangerous psychological flaws that the majourity of the population suffers from.
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cf and qq
you both have to stop with these personal attacks...
the discussion you are having is fine by me...but please both of you..refrain from putting the other one down.
As long as we live in AMERICA and its is not a muZlim nation.........yet............religions are open to be criticized. People SHOULD be able to do this, without a thread of going into exile. Personally, I dont like ANY religion. I believe 100% in Torah/Tanach and I LIKE the N.T. Torah, in my opinion is FREEDOM. Gd IS Gd. He is NOT in a box. I dont expect people to 'like' what I like- but DONT TRY TO CHANGE ME. I LIKE the way Gd has made me, and a few other in my life do too. If the rest dont like it------Get a quarter, and call someone who gives a dam.
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It's not really a put down.. I think this is too deep for you, - especially as it's about you.
Maybe you are right. I cannot make any sense of what you wrote whatsoever.
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Please everyone, calm down.
Let's not go at each other's throats or I'll have to lock this thread.
Lisa, I started this thread in order to explain myself in the light of the poorly-worded thread I started yesterday (and have since edited).
Currently, there is one person who persists in attacking me, in this thread that I made in order to clarify what I really intended.
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Most American Jews do not practice Torah and, in their ignorance, actually think AIPAC and similar groups are really standing up for their interests. They are very stupid for believing this. That is why Jews Against Obama needs to reach them right now.
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One of the reasons why some think that AIPAC knows anything is because there are publications, such as one in LA, that write articles that give people a false impression that AIPAC, ADL, etc., know what they're talking about.
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q_q I admit to your thesis of evil people from a Christian background and a Muslime background.
Even "educated" Muslimes loose very quickly control. They turn into real quranimals. Plus they overestimate themselve always in all concerns. They seem to live more under their instincts than under rational thoughts.
The whole Muslime believe Islam lures it's followers with very fleshly rewards. Virgins, great palaces, Wine[!sic] tasty meals etc. in paradise
Evil people with a European-Christian background are slippery as an eel, cold and calculating.
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cf and qq
you both have to stop with these personal attacks...
the discussion you are having is fine by me...but please both of you..refrain from putting the other one down.
As long as we live in AMERICA and its is not a muZlim nation.........yet............religions are open to be criticized. People SHOULD be able to do this, without a thread of going into exile. Personally, I dont like ANY religion. I believe 100% in Torah/Tanach and I LIKE the N.T. Torah, in my opinion is FREEDOM. Gd IS Gd. He is NOT in a box. I dont expect people to 'like' what I like- but DONT TRY TO CHANGE ME. I LIKE the way Gd has made me, and a few other in my life do too. If the rest dont like it------Get a quarter, and call someone who gives a dam.
Well said :)
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I am not sure why people keep on making it like their is more than one person making the personal attacks. Both Chaimfan and Mord have been personally attacked in the shas thread. Their is only one person making the attacks so this whole blaming everyone equally attitude that some take is not helpful at all and pisses me off.
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Agreed. This thread was not even addressed to that member, primarily. I started this thread and had many long exchanges with KWRBT in it that were completely civil, on both sides, as well as several shorter exchanges with a few others. Then, late last night, a certain poster saw this thread and found it personally intolerable. I was accused of, among other things, defaming the Talmud on this forum (lol).
That is what went on, Lisa and Dan.
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Agreed. This thread was not even addressed to that member, primarily. I started this thread and had many long exchanges with KWRBT in it that were completely civil, on both sides, as well as several shorter exchanges with a few others. Then, late last night, a certain poster saw this thread and found it personally intolerable. I was accused of, among other things, defaming the Talmud on this forum (lol).
That is what went on, Lisa and Dan.
can you quote here he/she did that and what it was you might have said for him/her to think so.
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The fact of the matter is that many Jews tend to me liberal and support liberal chi chi causes like the environment. There are also observant Jews who are in favor of Israel giving up land to the Arabs, and who love Yitzchak Rabin, Shimon Peres, etc. My brother in law is an example of that. When I asked Chaim about it on a past Ask JTF show, he didn't know what to say.
Likewise, there are many left leaning Christians in America, and they make up even more of America's population. So rather than criticizing religions (except for Islam, which is fair game here), we should instead focus on *people* who act hypocritically, despite professing to be religious.
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Go to post 4 of this page, Dan.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23507.15
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The fact of the matter is that many Jews tend to me liberal and support liberal chi chi causes like the environment. There are also observant Jews who are in favor of Israel giving up land to the Arabs, and who love Yitzchak Rabin, Shimon Peres, etc. My brother in law is an example of that. When I asked Chaim about it on a past Ask JTF show, he didn't know what to say.
Likewise, there are many left leaning Christians in America, and they make up even more of America's population. So rather than criticizing religions (except for Islam, which is fair game here), we should instead focus on *people* who act hypocritically, despite professing to be religious.
This is right in the end, but I had to make this thread in order to clarify myself. You told me yesterday that I used some very sloppy wording that could appear that I was insulting all of Judaism. I apologized for giving this impression, edited my original post, started this thread to establish what I really believe, and I think it has run its course.
Go ahead and lock it. Nothing constructive is coming out of it any longer.