JTF.ORG Forum
Save Western Civilization => Save America => Topic started by: Lubab on July 16, 2008, 02:23:59 AM
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I realize that with this thread I am not toeing the "party line". I can already see people rolling their eyes..."oh Lubab's been taken in by the conspiracy nuts". But that's really the wrong attitude.
I came to JTF for answers and the truth. My questions led me to ask and when Chaim gave answers that made logical sense, answers that explained the current reality I was experiencing, I knew this was a place that had a lot of truth to offer.
But I know one must never assume he's found the truth and then it's over. Well...the Torah is ultimate truth for me and everything else is suspect. But there is always more to know and one must never stop asking questions, even questions about the Torah. I never want to be a ditto-head who doesn't think for himself and ask questions even if the person I'm following blindly is the great Chaim ben Pesach. So while I know Chaim might be displeased that I bring up these issues and I am sorry for that, my great love for the truth at all costs compels me to bring these issues up for discussion because they are too important to ignore.
So I Have Questions About 9-11.
Now let me start off by saying I don't yet have answers to these questions and I would hate nothing more than to be forced to conclude that our own government had any part in the execution of these bloody mass murders. That would be the ultimate betrayal. That's exactly why I ask these questions...hoping that maybe someone here (or all of you together can answer these questions to my satisfaction so I don't NEED to believe that the US government is capable of such evil.
(Though at the same time I realize government doesn't have a very good historical record for treating it's citizens well...one still hopes America is different).
So here are my questions and if anyone can help me out with any one of them please do so. I think this will spark an intereting discussion and I hope everyone will learn something and respect an opposing viewpoint. Let's try to keep away from labels like "conspiracy theory"
because there's no reason why one man's interpretation of events is any better than anyone else just because he happens to be the President or his spokesman. Every man should be able to weigh the evidence and draw their own conclusions if this still is a free country.
Enough intro, here are my questions:
1. Apparently we have a whole lot of Air Force Defenses in this country. We have a very high tech military. Maybe the best in the world. This military has protocols on how to deal with hijacked planes. It is my understanding that even commercial flights that go off slightly are quickly surrounded on both sides with US fighter planes on both sides. NORAD I believe is the organization in charge of this stuff.
Yet over the course of 2 hours on 9-11 one plane hit. Another plane hit. It was clear we were under attack. Then a third plane hit the Pentagon (which I would assume would be the the best guarded building in the country). There was apparently a fleet of fighter planes about 10 miles away. I think it's called Andrew's Feild or something like that. Not one plane of ours went up into the air that day to do something about those planes which they knew were WAY off course and obviously up to no good.
Why is this?
There was Norman Mineta, transportation secretary, who testified before Congress that he was with Dick Cheney when the plane was approaching the Pentagon and people kept running in asking him "does the order still stand?!" and even when the plane was withing 10 miles of the Pentagon he kept saying "yes the order still stands, have you heard anything to the contrary from me!" You can find this testimony on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlM8Sui6-X0) . It was reported in the mainstream media. Now what "order" was Cheney referring to. It seems obvious to me that the only order he was referring to was an order for the Air Force to do nothing about that plane heading into the Pentagon...because that's exactly what happened...nothing...and in it went and many people were killed there.
2. WTC Building #7. It was not hit by a plane. You can see it had some small fires in a few floors. The media coverage of the fires in that building were reported in the major media and are available on YT as well. What caused it to collapse later in the day around 5:30 in about 7 seconds. It collapsed neatly and completely into it's own footprint for no apparent reason that I can think of. I've seen much weaker buildings with much worse fires burn for much much longer and they don't collapse at all. They just sort get gutted from the inside and the frame remains. Here nothing remained. Absolutely everything went down all in one shot for no good reason.
Larry Silverstein was on PBS a few days later and said he asked "them" to "pull it" "and we watched the building come down". "Pull it" is a phrase known to be used by demolition workers when they do a controlled demolition. If it was a controlled demolition how did they set that up so fast amongst all the chaos of the day? Correct me if I'm wrong but a controlled demolition would take weeks to set up, and why would they set one up in the first place?
It's notable that Larry Silverstein owned the twin towers and Building #7 and profited greatly from the insurance policies he'd taken out on his buildings weeks before the events. His buildings were the only ones that collapsed.
3. Why was the US government on the morning of 9-11 conducting drills to practice what to do if planes get flown into the world trade center and pentagon? This was also reported in the major media outlets and I'm sure you heard about it.
If they were aware of such a threat why did our air force respond so poorly (i.e.) not at all?
Or was it just a coincidence? What are the odds that they were coincidentally conducting an exercise on the exact same event that happened the exact same day? Can you imagine how many zeros you'd need to calculate those mind-boggling odds.
4. The collapse of the twin towers themselves seem very strange to me. The official claim is that they collapsed because the jet fuel melted the steel. If that would happen I would expect to see some sagging, maybe a falling over leaning tower of piza type of thing or falling over and yet it collapsed so neatly into it's own footprint. And the other building collapsed the exact same way.
If the jet fuel was responsible for fires that were so hot that it melted the entire steel core of the building...how is it that humans survived in the area of impact of the planes? I'm sure you've all seen pictures of people begging for their lives crawling out of that hole where the plane hit. That should have been the hottest spot of all! And yet we don't see them burning alive. They seem to be okay waiving their shirts etc. until the building starts to collapse It also seems that most of the jet fuel went up in a burst of flames upon impact and the fires inside were almost already under control when the actual collapse happened. Weird, no?
6. Bush's reaction. We all know that when Bush was told "our country is under attack" he was in Florida reading a book about a little goat. He seemed to sit there with the kids and continued reading with them for I think 15 minutes after he KNEW America was under attack.
The most disturbing thing about this is not the callousness of the president that while people are screaming for their lives from the top of that tower he's still sitting reading to little kids...the most disturbing thing to me ...is that if he believed we were under attack by terrorists who hate America and everything we stand for...he should have been scared out of his whitts because he would be the obvious next target for another plane. Who knew what they would do next. Al Queda would know where the President was suposed to be that day. Any sane president would run for his life into some sort of underground bunker but certainly get out of where everyone knew he was going to be. Why didn't he look scared? Why didn't he do anything for 15 minutes? He was even joking around...should he at least have gotten all the kids out of there to protect THEIR safety in case Al Qaeda was going to somehow bomb that school.
This would all make perfect sense if he knew about the attacks and working with Bin Laden (CIA trained and used by the US before in operations against Russia and Serbia I believe)...but makes no sense if we're being attacked by an enemy that we don't know what it will do next.
7. Mainstream news reported that some passports of the terrorists were found in the rubble. How it is that a plane's jet fuel made such a fire as to burn ALL the steel core of WTCs and collapse the entire building in seconds but these passports made it out onto the ground unscathed.
8. Most disturbingly: Guiliani ordered all the rubble from 9-11 almost immediately picked up and dumped and I think it was demolished or thrown in a river. Someone can go and Google and look up exactly what happened to it but it was unavailable for inspection very very quickly.
That was the biggest crime scene of the century. Why the rush to get rid of all the evidence?
Answers to any of these would be greatly appreciated, but I'm looking for facts and logic, not epithets and personal attacks please.
I'm looking for the truth just as you are...hopefully.
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I will call your bluff Lubab.
The technical part is gone over.. in quite detail by popular mechanics great article here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
Read it... and tell me what you think.
If you really want to go into more detail... check this out:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html
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There is a video of Bin Laden saying he knew the towers would collapse because of the burning jet fuel. He said because of his experience in the construction industry that he knew that this would happen.
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I will call your bluff Lubab.
The technical part is gone over.. in quite detail by popular mechanics great article here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
Read it... and tell me what you think.
If you really want to go into more detail... check this out:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html
There's no bluff to call here. I'm being perfectly honest with the way I see things.
I'll read it but I'd like to hear YOUR thoughts Brain. Please tell me which number question you are addressing and how you think it is resolved in your own words...because you can post links and so can I...and we can go on doing that all day without every really communicating.
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In an answer to #7, you saw in the video that there was a large explosion. There were huge pieces of debri, parts of the plane and parts of the building that flew out everywhere. In Okhlahoma City they found some evidence blocks away, perfectly preserved. Do you think that was a possible conspiracy?
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I will call your bluff Lubab.
The technical part is gone over.. in quite detail by popular mechanics great article here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
Read it... and tell me what you think.
If you really want to go into more detail... check this out:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html
I'm reading the article and so far it has addressed two point I brought up but in both cases they relied on "conclusions" by the NIST which is a government organization. So if it's the government itself we are scrutinizing I think we have a problem there already when it is using goverment paid scientists to draw their conclusion.
Read their conclusion about Building #7: do you find that convincing? That a building with some damage and comprimised by fire collapses in 13 seconds?
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In an answer to #7, you saw in the video that there was a large explosion. There were huge pieces of debri, parts of the plane and parts of the building that flew out everywhere. In Okhlahoma City they found some evidence blocks away, perfectly preserved. Do you think that was a possible conspiracy?
Well if you look on the net you'll find there is some evidence to support a conspiracy there too so I wouldn't just base yourself on Oklahoma... I know...I know you can find anything on the net, so maybe you have answer to this one if you don't believe Oklahoma was a government black op.
I'm willing to lay #7 to rest for now...but there's 7 more to go.
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Also, you can see how the US government bungled Katrina, loses your mail and can't even catch employees going to strip clubs on government credit cards. One of the US warships in the Pacific caught fire because the whole crew was drunk and not paying attention and had to abandon ship when the fire engulfed the entire ship which never should have happened. They also let two nuclear warheads fly over the US because of massive oversight. There is a ton of incompetence and stupidity in government because often there is little accountability. Also, the airports before 9/11 were a joke. I took a flight through Ohare and they found a knife that I had on me. The security guard told me, "I won't tell if you won't tell" and gave me back the knife.
Also, if Bush was involved with a conspiracy, wouldn't he have had himself doing something presidential; instead of bumbling in front of a bunch of schoolchildren?
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Im sorry but I will complain...
I am a bit tired of the conspiracy theory of 9/11... Not that I want to stifle true debate but I am a personal victim of the attack. Talking about this is just crazy. My brother worked on the 105th floor of WTC tower #1 for Cantor Fitzgerald. I believe the Popular Mechanics explanation and think it is good at refuting the conspiracy theories.
Here is a link to a memorial : http://www.legacy.com/Sept11/Story.aspx?PersonID=121758 & http://www.cantorfamilies.com/cantor/jsp/tribute.jsp?ID=4493.
Please be considerate...
muman613
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For those who might claim this thread makes us look nuts I would refer you to some polls. CNN did one and more than a majority of Americans think there's the possibility of some kind of government cover up. In NY it goes up to like 80% of people who think it could be an inside job. And most of the families of the 9-11 victims are calling for a new independent investigation. So this threat is not totally out of touch with public sentiment.
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My family doesnt buy this conspiracy BS...
Sorry...
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Im sorry but I will complain...
I am a bit tired of the conspiracy theory of 9/11... Not that I want to stifle true debate but I am a personal victim of the attack. Talking about this is just crazy. My brother worked on the 105th floor of WTC tower #1 for Cantor Fitzgerald. I believe the Popular Mechanics explanation and think it is good at refuting the conspiracy theories.
Here is a link to a memorial : http://www.legacy.com/Sept11/Story.aspx?PersonID=121758 & http://www.cantorfamilies.com/cantor/jsp/tribute.jsp?ID=4493.
Please be considerate...
muman613
I am very sorry to hear that.
Believe me I care just as much for the people who died as you do. I'm sorry if just talking about the event strikes a chord...but you don't have to read it...I think it would be a dishonor to the victims to not fully look into and hold accountable the people responsible for their deaths.
I'm looking for people to actually address my questions not just post links...as I said before Popular Mechanics relies heavily on the conclusions of a committee formed by the same government that I am trying to investigate. So we still must hold Popular Mechanics's arguments up to the test of logic and not just accept "the NIST said X" so therefore that's what happened.
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Most Americans couldn't find Israel or Canada on a map.
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I will call your bluff Lubab.
The technical part is gone over.. in quite detail by popular mechanics great article here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
Read it... and tell me what you think.
If you really want to go into more detail... check this out:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html
There's no bluff to call here. I'm being perfectly honest with the way I see things.
I'll read it but I'd like to hear YOUR thoughts Brain. Please tell me which number question you are addressing and how you think it is resolved in your own words...because you can post links and so can I...and we can go on doing that all day without every really communicating.
Dissproving conspiracy theories such as this is very easy to everyone but the person who beleives it. People who believe 9/11 conspiracies, or hollocaust denials, etc... will NEVER change their mind no matter what you say. I can give a stormfronter 1000 pictures of jews suffering and being murdered.. and they will only believe that all of those photos were faked.
Its a fruitless effort... because those who choose to believe an extraordinary claim without extraordinary proof... are usually delusional... and think that everyone.. everywhere is lying to them. So you can imagine my skepitisism here.
HOWEVER... pick 1 from the list and I will address it (tomorrow... since its late tonight) Choose one from your list that you think is completely unexplainable by anything other than a cover-up, and I will do this. (JUST THIS ONCE)
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I will call your bluff Lubab.
The technical part is gone over.. in quite detail by popular mechanics great article here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
Read it... and tell me what you think.
If you really want to go into more detail... check this out:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html
There's no bluff to call here. I'm being perfectly honest with the way I see things.
I'll read it but I'd like to hear YOUR thoughts Brain. Please tell me which number question you are addressing and how you think it is resolved in your own words...because you can post links and so can I...and we can go on doing that all day without every really communicating.
Dissproving conspiracy theories such as this is very easy to everyone but the person who beleives it. People who believe 9/11 conspiracies, or hollocaust denials, etc... will NEVER change their mind no matter what you say. I can give a stormfronter 1000 pictures of jews suffering and being murdered.. and they will only believe that all of those photos were faked.
Its a fruitless effort... because those who choose to believe an extraordinary claim without extraordinary proof... are usually delusional... and think that everyone.. everywhere is lying to them. So you can imagine my skepitisism here.
HOWEVER... pick 1 from the list and I will address it (tomorrow... since its late tonight) Choose one from your list that you think is completely unexplainable by anything other than a cover-up, and I will do this. (JUST THIS ONCE)
Okay I pick #2. The one about building #7. That is one of the hardest ones for me to swallow.
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The one thing I will say is that I blame the Clinton administration for sitting on their hands while OBL was a known terrorist with intentions to strike America. He knew where he was and due to legal red tape he was unable to capture him. There were missteps by Bush when he started but I dont think he took seriously the threat.
There were numerous reports of threats and most were not taken seriously. I dont blame Bush as much as I blame Clinton...
muman613
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I'm just taking a shot in the dark here but maybe the impact of both towers coming down was so strong that it knocked down the building right across the street. The power of that debris coming down could easily rival an earthquake. That combined with the debris hitting the face of the building from across the street could do that.
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Also, you can see how the US government bungled Katrina, loses your mail and can't even catch employees going to strip clubs on government credit cards. One of the US warships in the Pacific caught fire because the whole crew was drunk and not paying attention and had to abandon ship when the fire engulfed the entire ship which never should have happened. They also let two nuclear warheads fly over the US because of massive oversight. There is a ton of incompetence and stupidity in government because often there is little accountability. Also, the airports before 9/11 were a joke. I took a flight through Ohare and they found a knife that I had on me. The security guard told me, "I won't tell if you won't tell" and gave me back the knife.
Also, if Bush was involved with a conspiracy, wouldn't he have had himself doing something presidential; instead of bumbling in front of a bunch of schoolchildren?
First of all I think the mail system is pretty darn reliable.
Second of all, there is a lot of incompetence in government, but one alternate view of these events is that not everyone in government needed to be in on the operation..just a few people at the top who give the orders...
I agree with you it's weird that Bush would be doing that if he was doing a conspiracy, but isn't it even weirder if it isn't?
Maybe Bush is dumb and Cheney and others were running things at the time and they specifically sent Bush off to do something dumb with the kids so he wouldn't muck it up? I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
I do believe there were a host of new generals that took over that day and they weren't the usual crew. Cheney I think took charge of military operations which was unusual. I'd have to look that up and double check.
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Oh please.
Why don't you make it 10 nagging questions and include:
9. Why were Israeli Mossad agents photographed celebrating the WTC collapse and why was explosives residue found in their moving van ?
10. Why did the Jews who worked at the WTC fail to show up on 9/11 ?
With all due respect Lubab, your 'nagging questions' have been dealt with-- and the suppositions and innuendo they're based on-- thoroughly debunked a million times by a variety of reliable sources.
These questions only 'nag' at those silly enough to put credence in absurd conspiracy theories, when the simple truth is that a bunch of Islamonazis attacked America and murdered 3,000 Americans.
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I'm just taking a shot in the dark here but maybe the impact of both towers coming down was so strong that it knocked down the building right across the street. The power of that debris coming down could easily rival an earthquake. That combined with the debris hitting the face of the building from across the street could do that.
Well the government claims the fire melted the steel foundation of #7. #7 came down many hours after WTC1 and 2 fell. So if that was the case why didn't it fall in the morning instead of later that afternoon. And why the sudden collapse? And why didn't we see a similiar thing happen to other buildings which were much closer to the impact of the 1 and 2's collapse?
I'm sorry but that answer for me just raises more question.
Uncanny that the only buildings which fell were all owned by the same guy though.
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The one thing I will say is that I blame the Clinton administration for sitting on their hands while OBL was a known terrorist with intentions to strike America. He knew where he was and due to legal red tape he was unable to capture him. There were missteps by Bush when he started but I dont think he took seriously the threat.
There were numerous reports of threats and most were not taken seriously. I dont blame Bush as much as I blame Clinton...
muman613
Totally agree. Clinton had a shot at Osama but didn't take it because he was with a relative of one of the princes of the United Arab Emirates in Afghanistan. He thought it would create a PR disaster and cost thousands of people their lives because of this. Osama was on the FBI's most wanted for years and never taken truly seriously for all the people who believe he just popped up from somewhere. You can even see his photo on the FBI's most wanted in that movie Hannibal, which was made before 9-11.
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Oh please.
Why don't you make it 10 nagging questions and include:
9. Why were Israeli Mossad agents photographed celebrating the WTC collapse and why was explosives residue found in their moving van ?
10. Why did the Jews who worked at the WTC fail to show up on 9/11 ?
With all due respect Lubab, your 'nagging questions' have been dealt with-- and the suppositions and innuendo they're based on-- thoroughly debunked a million times by a variety of reliable sources.
These questions only 'nag' at those silly enough to put credence in absurd conspiracy theories, when the simple truth is that a bunch of Islamonazis attacked America and murdered 3,000 Americans.
If they were answered so many times then why don't you just answer for them for me right here and I'll close the thread and even delete it just as soon as I see your logical response to all of these 8 questions.
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Oh please.
Why don't you make it 10 nagging questions and include:
9. Why were Israeli Mossad agents photographed celebrating the WTC collapse and why was explosives residue found in their moving van ?
10. Why did the Jews who worked at the WTC fail to show up on 9/11 ?
With all due respect Lubab, your 'nagging questions' have been dealt with-- and the suppositions and innuendo they're based on-- thoroughly debunked a million times by a variety of reliable sources.
These questions only 'nag' at those silly enough to put credence in absurd conspiracy theories, when the simple truth is that a bunch of Islamonazis attacked America and murdered 3,000 Americans.
Well, all Jews except for my brother... Im sorry to say...
muman613
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I would just point out that we have reliable people, physicists, academicians and high government officials on both sides of this debate.
So I wouldn't just assume it's only the two kids from Loose Change who think this way. It's simply not the case
Many of these people were afraid to come out about their views earlier on but have spoken out in more recent years.
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Also, you can see how the US government bungled Katrina, loses your mail and can't even catch employees going to strip clubs on government credit cards. One of the US warships in the Pacific caught fire because the whole crew was drunk and not paying attention and had to abandon ship when the fire engulfed the entire ship which never should have happened. They also let two nuclear warheads fly over the US because of massive oversight. There is a ton of incompetence and stupidity in government because often there is little accountability. Also, the airports before 9/11 were a joke. I took a flight through Ohare and they found a knife that I had on me. The security guard told me, "I won't tell if you won't tell" and gave me back the knife.
Also, if Bush was involved with a conspiracy, wouldn't he have had himself doing something presidential; instead of bumbling in front of a bunch of schoolchildren?
First of all I think the mail system is pretty darn reliable.
Second of all, there is a lot of incompetence in government, but one alternate view of these events is that not everyone in government needed to be in on the operation..just a few people at the top who give the orders...
I agree with you it's weird that Bush would be doing that if he was doing a conspiracy, but isn't it even weirder if it isn't?
Maybe Bush is dumb and Cheney and others were running things at the time and they specifically sent Bush off to do something dumb with the kids so he wouldn't muck it up? I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
I do believe there were a host of new generals that took over that day and they weren't the usual crew. Cheney I think took charge of military operations which was unusual. I'd have to look that up and double check.
There are countless stories of lost mail and stupidity throughout government all the time. You hear all this criticism about Bush's lousy government making stupid mistakes and then that his Administration was behind a massive, complicated plot from the same people. Regarding Cheney, no one in positions of power want attention like this if they're up to something. If they keep things quiet and people are entertained and distracted, then they can get away with anything. You kind of draw attention to yourself if you create a massive, life changing event that involves televised mass death and destruction. You will rarely hear about the real conspiracies regarding health care, Wall Street and the oil crisis. People like Bush's press secretary and others couldn't keep their mouths shut about minor matters so you think that hundreds of people would never break their silence about a conspiracy like this?
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Oh please.
Why don't you make it 10 nagging questions and include:
9. Why were Israeli Mossad agents photographed celebrating the WTC collapse and why was explosives residue found in their moving van ?
10. Why did the Jews who worked at the WTC fail to show up on 9/11 ?
With all due respect Lubab, your 'nagging questions' have been dealt with-- and the suppositions and innuendo they're based on-- thoroughly debunked a million times by a variety of reliable sources.
These questions only 'nag' at those silly enough to put credence in absurd conspiracy theories, when the simple truth is that a bunch of Islamonazis attacked America and murdered 3,000 Americans.
Well, all Jews except for my brother... Im sorry to say...
muman613
Sorry to hear that
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Oh please.
Why don't you make it 10 nagging questions and include:
9. Why were Israeli Mossad agents photographed celebrating the WTC collapse and why was explosives residue found in their moving van ?
10. Why did the Jews who worked at the WTC fail to show up on 9/11 ?
With all due respect Lubab, your 'nagging questions' have been dealt with-- and the suppositions and innuendo they're based on-- thoroughly debunked a million times by a variety of reliable sources.
These questions only 'nag' at those silly enough to put credence in absurd conspiracy theories, when the simple truth is that a bunch of Islamonazis attacked America and murdered 3,000 Americans.
If they were answered so many times then why don't you just answer for them for me right here and I'll close the thread and even delete it just as soon as I see your logical response to all of these 8 questions.
Because my time is far too valuable to waste to rehash the answers to your supposedly 'nagging' questions when they're readily available on the internet to anyone that was sincerely trying to ascertain the truth.
I'm sure you've heard of Google and other search engines. Do yourself a favor and do some research using the 'key' words pertaining to your nagging questions.
Some posters have already directed you to an excellent Popular Mechanics article.
Get off your butt and do the research yourself if these questions are really 'nagging' at you. They're not nagging at me.
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Also, you can see how the US government bungled Katrina, loses your mail and can't even catch employees going to strip clubs on government credit cards. One of the US warships in the Pacific caught fire because the whole crew was drunk and not paying attention and had to abandon ship when the fire engulfed the entire ship which never should have happened. They also let two nuclear warheads fly over the US because of massive oversight. There is a ton of incompetence and stupidity in government because often there is little accountability. Also, the airports before 9/11 were a joke. I took a flight through Ohare and they found a knife that I had on me. The security guard told me, "I won't tell if you won't tell" and gave me back the knife.
Also, if Bush was involved with a conspiracy, wouldn't he have had himself doing something presidential; instead of bumbling in front of a bunch of schoolchildren?
First of all I think the mail system is pretty darn reliable.
Second of all, there is a lot of incompetence in government, but one alternate view of these events is that not everyone in government needed to be in on the operation..just a few people at the top who give the orders...
I agree with you it's weird that Bush would be doing that if he was doing a conspiracy, but isn't it even weirder if it isn't?
Maybe Bush is dumb and Cheney and others were running things at the time and they specifically sent Bush off to do something dumb with the kids so he wouldn't muck it up? I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
I do believe there were a host of new generals that took over that day and they weren't the usual crew. Cheney I think took charge of military operations which was unusual. I'd have to look that up and double check.
There are countless stories of lost mail and stupidity throughout government all the time. You hear all this criticism about Bush's lousy government making stupid mistakes and then that his Administration was behind a massive, complicated plot from the same people. Regarding Cheney, no one in positions of power want attention like this if they're up to something. If they keep things quiet and people are entertained and distracted, then they can get away with anything. You kind of draw attention to yourself if you create a massive, life changing event that involves televised mass death and destruction. You will rarely hear about the real conspiracies regarding health care, Wall Street and the oil crisis. People like Bush's press secretary and others couldn't keep their mouths shut about minor matters so you think that hundreds of people would never break their silence about a conspiracy like this?
Well some people have broken their silence. You do have government officials that have come forward and questioned what really went on that day but they're usually fired shortly after that.
For historical support for the idea that governments do do such things you might look into Hitler's self inflicted bombing of the Reinshtad Building which he used to scare the people and take away a lot of rights from Germans eventually making Germany into the dictatorship it became.
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I'm just taking a shot in the dark here but maybe the impact of both towers coming down was so strong that it knocked down the building right across the street. The power of that debris coming down could easily rival an earthquake. That combined with the debris hitting the face of the building from across the street could do that.
Well the government claims the fire melted the steel foundation of #7. #7 came down many hours after WTC1 and 2 fell. So if that was the case why didn't it fall in the morning instead of later that afternoon. And why the sudden collapse? And why didn't we see a similar thing happen to other buildings which were much closer to the impact of the 1 and 2's collapse?
I'm sorry but that answer for me just raises more question.
Uncanny that the only buildings which fell were all owned by the same guy though.
Buildings collapse all the time, sometime with people in them because of a number of reasons. Bad construction, a minor earthquake and poor materials. Also, the government told everyone to get out of #7 because it was unstable, I remember the news reports. Why would they evacuate one building but not evacuate the first two. They had more time to act on the latter one so that's why they evacuated it. When a large truck drives by my house I can hear the whole building creek and bend so a giant collapse like that could easily have an affect of collapse. I experienced the Seattle earthquake and some building collapsed right next to others that had 0 damage. Also, if this happened in another neighborhood then it could have all been Donald Trump buildings and they would have connected him to Bush and 9-11.
South Park is on and they just said, "What's better than telling a story and having everyone believe you? Getting paid for a story that everyone believes."
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Oh please.
Why don't you make it 10 nagging questions and include:
9. Why were Israeli Mossad agents photographed celebrating the WTC collapse and why was explosives residue found in their moving van ?
10. Why did the Jews who worked at the WTC fail to show up on 9/11 ?
With all due respect Lubab, your 'nagging questions' have been dealt with-- and the suppositions and innuendo they're based on-- thoroughly debunked a million times by a variety of reliable sources.
These questions only 'nag' at those silly enough to put credence in absurd conspiracy theories, when the simple truth is that a bunch of Islamonazis attacked America and murdered 3,000 Americans.
If they were answered so many times then why don't you just answer for them for me right here and I'll close the thread and even delete it just as soon as I see your logical response to all of these 8 questions.
Because my time is far too valuable to waste to rehash the answers to your supposedly 'nagging' questions when they're readily available on the internet to anyone that was sincerely trying to ascertain the truth.
I'm sure you've heard of Google and other search engines. Do yourself a favor and do some research using the 'key' words pertaining to your nagging questions.
Some posters have already directed you to an excellent Popular Mechanics article.
Get off your butt and do the research yourself if these questions are really 'nagging' at you. They're not nagging at me.
Dude. I have litrerally spent countless hours of research on Google before I came to these questions. How do you think I got to these questions in the first place? How much research have you done?
I already stated that the Popular Mechanics article only addresses 2 of my questions and their responses rely heavily on governmental findings of the NIST. How can you rely on the findings of the organization that you are investigating?
Therefore I think that article is fundamentally flawed. So you're back to needing to just provide a logical explanation for this stuff which you seem unable or unwilling to do.
It's just sheer laziness to say..."there's an article about that..don't worry about it". When governments throughout history have been so corrupt I think we ought to do a bit more investigation and thinking ourselves about what really happened.
You and I know the media including Popular Mechanics is owned by a very small group of corrupt multi-national corporations...so please don't tell me it's Tanach. Read the article yourself and assume for a moment we can't rely on the fact that something happened the way it did just because NIST says so...you'll see the article becomes very weak at that point.
And please...if you can't respect another's opinion just stay off the thread. I'm looking for a respectful, logical discussion not a shouting match. If you want to insult, you can take that to some other thread.
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I'm just taking a shot in the dark here but maybe the impact of both towers coming down was so strong that it knocked down the building right across the street. The power of that debris coming down could easily rival an earthquake. That combined with the debris hitting the face of the building from across the street could do that.
Well the government claims the fire melted the steel foundation of #7. #7 came down many hours after WTC1 and 2 fell. So if that was the case why didn't it fall in the morning instead of later that afternoon. And why the sudden collapse? And why didn't we see a similar thing happen to other buildings which were much closer to the impact of the 1 and 2's collapse?
I'm sorry but that answer for me just raises more question.
Uncanny that the only buildings which fell were all owned by the same guy though.
Buildings collapse all the time, sometime with people in them because of a number of reasons. Bad construction, a minor earthquake and poor materials. Also, the government told everyone to get out of #7 because it was unstable, I remember the news reports. Why would they evacuate one building but not evacuate the first two. They had more time to act on the latter one so that's why they evacuated it. When a large truck drives by my house I can hear the whole building creek and bend so a giant collapse like that could easily have an affect of collapse. I experienced the Seattle earthquake and some building collapsed right next to others that had 0 damage. Also, if this happened in another neighborhood then it could have all been Donald Trump buildings and they would have connected him to Bush and 9-11.
South Park is on and they just said, "What's better than telling a story and having everyone believe you? Getting paid for a story that everyone believes."
But they don't collapse that way. They collapse into a big mess, not into a neat pile in it's own footprint.
You can also see "squids" which are little tufts of smoke consistently going up through the side of Building #7 before the collapse which is a sign of controlled demolition.
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If they're not nagging you it's because you are relying on an article that may or may not be true instead of doing the research yourself.
These questions don't bother you because you never really spent the time to think about them and research. That's why they are not nagging you Muck. But I don't mind if they don't bother you I'm just wondering what you have to contribute to this thread, in that case?
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Lubab,
I dont buy for a second that our government or anyone in it would allow 3000 innocent people to be murdered for any purpose. Simply stated that is how I feel.
I have been a loyal American citizen my entire 43 years of life. This country has been good to me and my family. I have no reason to suspect anyone would have my brother killed so that they could make some money, no matter how evil you think they are.
Im beginning to think you are as nutty as nik was appearing to be the other night. Im sorry I have resorted to this but this is how I feel. I came here to get away from the america haters out there.
America is a great country and I am proud to be an American!
muman613
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Also, you can see how the US government bungled Katrina, loses your mail and can't even catch employees going to strip clubs on government credit cards. One of the US warships in the Pacific caught fire because the whole crew was drunk and not paying attention and had to abandon ship when the fire engulfed the entire ship which never should have happened. They also let two nuclear warheads fly over the US because of massive oversight. There is a ton of incompetence and stupidity in government because often there is little accountability. Also, the airports before 9/11 were a joke. I took a flight through Ohare and they found a knife that I had on me. The security guard told me, "I won't tell if you won't tell" and gave me back the knife.
Also, if Bush was involved with a conspiracy, wouldn't he have had himself doing something presidential; instead of bumbling in front of a bunch of schoolchildren?
First of all I think the mail system is pretty darn reliable.
Second of all, there is a lot of incompetence in government, but one alternate view of these events is that not everyone in government needed to be in on the operation..just a few people at the top who give the orders...
I agree with you it's weird that Bush would be doing that if he was doing a conspiracy, but isn't it even weirder if it isn't?
Maybe Bush is dumb and Cheney and others were running things at the time and they specifically sent Bush off to do something dumb with the kids so he wouldn't muck it up? I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
I do believe there were a host of new generals that took over that day and they weren't the usual crew. Cheney I think took charge of military operations which was unusual. I'd have to look that up and double check.
There are countless stories of lost mail and stupidity throughout government all the time. You hear all this criticism about Bush's lousy government making stupid mistakes and then that his Administration was behind a massive, complicated plot from the same people. Regarding Cheney, no one in positions of power want attention like this if they're up to something. If they keep things quiet and people are entertained and distracted, then they can get away with anything. You kind of draw attention to yourself if you create a massive, life changing event that involves televised mass death and destruction. You will rarely hear about the real conspiracies regarding health care, Wall Street and the oil crisis. People like Bush's press secretary and others couldn't keep their mouths shut about minor matters so you think that hundreds of people would never break their silence about a conspiracy like this?
Well some people have broken their silence. You do have government officials that have come forward and questioned what really went on that day but they're usually fired shortly after that.
For historical support for the idea that governments do do such things you might look into Hitler's self inflicted bombing of the Reinshtad Building which he used to scare the people and take away a lot of rights from Germans eventually making Germany into the dictatorship it became.
They may have raised questions but they never said, "I helped Mohamed Atta get on the plane." There would have had to be a lot of people involved in this because of the massive operation and one person breaking their silence would be an instant millionaire hero, so why would someone not become that if they're willing to kill thousands of Americans for a government policy? They have no morals to kill thousands of Americans and create a war but they morally refusing to come forward when it would work massively in their favor?? Anyways, Osama has admitted pridefully that he did this! Al Qaeda uses this as a recruiting tool to show the world that they finally got egg on the face of America.
The point about Hitler is good but didn't they soon after find out he was involved in the attack on the Reinstahd? I don't know enough about this part of history to comment. Anyways, Bush didn't rise to power politically as Hitler did. Hitler talked of war during the elections and Bush talked of non intervention.
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You know, I really like this forum. I like what it stands for. I like the JTF and what it stands for.
I'm willing to overlook some of the insanity that goes on here, and I've seen quite a bit of it.
There are posters here that supported Ron Paul. There's someone here that thinks the Vatican was behind 9/11.
Now I guess I'll just have to overlook a respected member comparing the events of 9/11 with the burning of the Reichstag. I guess I'll have to overlook posters putting credence in or being what's mockingly known as 9/11 'troofers'.
Oh well.
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Also, you can see how the US government bungled Katrina, loses your mail and can't even catch employees going to strip clubs on government credit cards. One of the US warships in the Pacific caught fire because the whole crew was drunk and not paying attention and had to abandon ship when the fire engulfed the entire ship which never should have happened. They also let two nuclear warheads fly over the US because of massive oversight. There is a ton of incompetence and stupidity in government because often there is little accountability. Also, the airports before 9/11 were a joke. I took a flight through Ohare and they found a knife that I had on me. The security guard told me, "I won't tell if you won't tell" and gave me back the knife.
Also, if Bush was involved with a conspiracy, wouldn't he have had himself doing something presidential; instead of bumbling in front of a bunch of schoolchildren?
First of all I think the mail system is pretty darn reliable.
Second of all, there is a lot of incompetence in government, but one alternate view of these events is that not everyone in government needed to be in on the operation..just a few people at the top who give the orders...
I agree with you it's weird that Bush would be doing that if he was doing a conspiracy, but isn't it even weirder if it isn't?
Maybe Bush is dumb and Cheney and others were running things at the time and they specifically sent Bush off to do something dumb with the kids so he wouldn't muck it up? I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
I do believe there were a host of new generals that took over that day and they weren't the usual crew. Cheney I think took charge of military operations which was unusual. I'd have to look that up and double check.
There are countless stories of lost mail and stupidity throughout government all the time. You hear all this criticism about Bush's lousy government making stupid mistakes and then that his Administration was behind a massive, complicated plot from the same people. Regarding Cheney, no one in positions of power want attention like this if they're up to something. If they keep things quiet and people are entertained and distracted, then they can get away with anything. You kind of draw attention to yourself if you create a massive, life changing event that involves televised mass death and destruction. You will rarely hear about the real conspiracies regarding health care, Wall Street and the oil crisis. People like Bush's press secretary and others couldn't keep their mouths shut about minor matters so you think that hundreds of people would never break their silence about a conspiracy like this?
Well some people have broken their silence. You do have government officials that have come forward and questioned what really went on that day but they're usually fired shortly after that.
For historical support for the idea that governments do do such things you might look into Hitler's self inflicted bombing of the Reinshtad Building which he used to scare the people and take away a lot of rights from Germans eventually making Germany into the dictatorship it became.
They may have raised questions but they never said, "I helped Mohamed Atta get on the plane." There would have had to be a lot of people involved in this because of the massive operation and one person breaking their silence would be an instant millionaire hero, so why would someone not become that if they're willing to kill thousands of Americans for a government policy? They have no morals to kill thousands of Americans and create a war but they morally refusing to come forward when it would work massively in their favor?? Anyways, Osama has admitted pridefully that he did this! Al Qaeda uses this as a recruiting tool to show the world that they finally got egg on the face of America.
The point about Hitler is good but didn't they soon after find out he was involved in the attack on the Reinstahd? I don't know enough about this part of history to comment. Anyways, Bush didn't rise to power politically as Hitler did. Hitler talked of war during the elections and Bush talked of non intervention.
I know Osama admitted this, but you are aware that Osama in the past has been working for us...the CIA. We trained him. We armed him. He was always are man for a long time.
They could've used him for this they same way used him in Afghanistan to fight the Russians.
You'd be surprised to learn about the cushy relationship between the Bush and Bin Ladin families which you should research. They did do business together in the past.
And we all know about Bush's traitorous defense of the Saudi Government even inviting them for BBQ soon after the events...Bush is in bed with the Saudis. Why weren't the Saudis included in the Axis of Evil when the money came from them and most of the hijackers came from them?
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I'm just taking a shot in the dark here but maybe the impact of both towers coming down was so strong that it knocked down the building right across the street. The power of that debris coming down could easily rival an earthquake. That combined with the debris hitting the face of the building from across the street could do that.
Well the government claims the fire melted the steel foundation of #7. #7 came down many hours after WTC1 and 2 fell. So if that was the case why didn't it fall in the morning instead of later that afternoon. And why the sudden collapse? And why didn't we see a similar thing happen to other buildings which were much closer to the impact of the 1 and 2's collapse?
I'm sorry but that answer for me just raises more question.
Uncanny that the only buildings which fell were all owned by the same guy though.
Buildings collapse all the time, sometime with people in them because of a number of reasons. Bad construction, a minor earthquake and poor materials. Also, the government told everyone to get out of #7 because it was unstable, I remember the news reports. Why would they evacuate one building but not evacuate the first two. They had more time to act on the latter one so that's why they evacuated it. When a large truck drives by my house I can hear the whole building creek and bend so a giant collapse like that could easily have an affect of collapse. I experienced the Seattle earthquake and some building collapsed right next to others that had 0 damage. Also, if this happened in another neighborhood then it could have all been Donald Trump buildings and they would have connected him to Bush and 9-11.
South Park is on and they just said, "What's better than telling a story and having everyone believe you? Getting paid for a story that everyone believes."
But they don't collapse that way. They collapse into a big mess, not into a neat pile in it's own footprint.
You can also see "squids" which are little tufts of smoke consistently going up through the side of Building #7 before the collapse which is a sign of controlled demolition.
Honestly, neither of us are in construction and demolition so when we start talking about this, neither of us really know what we're talking about. I've seen countless interviews from construction and demolition experts who say the government explanation makes sense. Also, if you can't believe PM magazine because of some of the sources, then how can you accept the conspiracy sources which are way less reliable. I think it's good to look at why both sides would do this. While Bush could grab power from this situation, he also could create a very volatile situation where people could turn against him from this. The conspiracy theorist also could have a motive. 9-11 destroyed the view that America was just an imperialist, colonialist power going around hurting other countries. Islam, the third world and illegal immigrants were all cast into the light like never before and liberalism was almost destroyed by this. How could they fight their way out of this one? By saying it all never happened and it just isn't so. Many others just want to blame Jews, or Republicans for their problems.
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Good point NWJTF
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If only the Jews were not in Israel, then 9/11 would not have occured... Ive heard this one...
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I'm just taking a shot in the dark here but maybe the impact of both towers coming down was so strong that it knocked down the building right across the street. The power of that debris coming down could easily rival an earthquake. That combined with the debris hitting the face of the building from across the street could do that.
Well the government claims the fire melted the steel foundation of #7. #7 came down many hours after WTC1 and 2 fell. So if that was the case why didn't it fall in the morning instead of later that afternoon. And why the sudden collapse? And why didn't we see a similar thing happen to other buildings which were much closer to the impact of the 1 and 2's collapse?
I'm sorry but that answer for me just raises more question.
Uncanny that the only buildings which fell were all owned by the same guy though.
Buildings collapse all the time, sometime with people in them because of a number of reasons. Bad construction, a minor earthquake and poor materials. Also, the government told everyone to get out of #7 because it was unstable, I remember the news reports. Why would they evacuate one building but not evacuate the first two. They had more time to act on the latter one so that's why they evacuated it. When a large truck drives by my house I can hear the whole building creek and bend so a giant collapse like that could easily have an affect of collapse. I experienced the Seattle earthquake and some building collapsed right next to others that had 0 damage. Also, if this happened in another neighborhood then it could have all been Donald Trump buildings and they would have connected him to Bush and 9-11.
South Park is on and they just said, "What's better than telling a story and having everyone believe you? Getting paid for a story that everyone believes."
But they don't collapse that way. They collapse into a big mess, not into a neat pile in it's own footprint.
You can also see "squids" which are little tufts of smoke consistently going up through the side of Building #7 before the collapse which is a sign of controlled demolition.
Honestly, neither of us are in construction and demolition so when we start talking about this, neither of us really know what we're talking about. I've seen countless interviews from construction and demolition experts who say the government explanation makes sense. Also, if you can't believe PM magazine because of some of the sources, then how can you accept the conspiracy sources which are way less reliable. I think it's good to look at why both sides would do this. While Bush could grab power from this situation, he also could create a very volatile situation where people could turn against him from this. The conspiracy theorist also could have a motive. 9-11 destroyed the view that America was just an imperialist, colonialist power going around hurting other countries. Islam, the third world and illegal immigrants were all cast into the light like never before and liberalism was almost destroyed by this. How could they fight their way out of this one? By saying it all never happened and it just isn't so. Many others just want to blame Jews, or Republicans for their problems.
I'm really not accepting the sources of conspiracy theorists or Popular Mechanics. I'm just asking 8 questions from my own brain based on the evidence I've seen. If people have answers that seem logical-great! But just referring me to an article is not an answer.
No question this would bring a lot of heat on Bush...if they were caught. But politicians historically seem to think they will never get caught.
They are drunk with power.
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Lubab,
I dont buy for a second that our government or anyone in it would allow 3000 innocent people to be murdered for any purpose. Simply stated that is how I feel.
I have been a loyal American citizen my entire 43 years of life. This country has been good to me and my family. I have no reason to suspect anyone would have my brother killed so that they could make some money, no matter how evil you think they are.
Im beginning to think you are as nutty as nik was appearing to be the other night. Im sorry I have resorted to this but this is how I feel. I came here to get away from the america haters out there.
America is a great country and I am proud to be an American!
muman613
Me too muman. But if we study history we find that goverments turning on their own people is the rule not the exception. I think somehow people were led to believe that USA is somehow different from any other government throughout history but that is really hard to believe.
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it they say...if we get too trusting of government we invite some serious problems because then they can pretty much do whatever they want and convince us of anything.
So I think questioning government is a healthy thing to do. We do it here at JTF all the time. We love America and Israel but we know that their governments often betray what's best for the people. We can still love the country and point that out. It's not a contradiction.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W0N-qH0ac4
A video where you can see footage of the Building #7. Speaks much louder than words...it's a freefall, not a pancake. Just watch and use your brains.
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Well for me it is more than that. I want Justice for my brothers blood. I will see Osama Bin Laden executed. I would like his head on a pike. I hate all Islamic Terrorists and my blood boils when I think people are trying to muddy the water.
The blame is on OBL and his terrorist network. They want to kill us. That is all there is.
You go on your mystery tour of conspiracy theory. You will never prove anything either way. As was said earlier, once you accept any aspect of the conspiracy, you will believe it completely. I reject the premise and know the facts. Our enemy tried to kill us, Amalek in the flesh. You think he works for the CIA.
Shalom
muman613
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Osama comes from a construction family so right off the bat he knows how to engineer an attack on buildings, bridges, dams etc because he knows how they are put into place.
Yes, the CIA worked with Saddam, Noriega, Bin Laden, etc. As Rabbi Kahane said, "Nations have no permanent friends, just permanent intersts." We've all had people we used to be friends with and now can't stand. Osama has engineered attacks on his fellow Saudis so there is certainly a rift there. Osama had a falling out with America when we replaced his mujaheddin fighters to fight Saddam and landed in Saudi Arabia. Americans, according to Osama, defiled the Saudi peninsula by stepping foot there. That's when he became an enemy of the US. We couldn't see beyond the Cold War and never thought a bunch of terrorist idiots would be a serious threat to national security like a nuclear armed Soviet Union was.
Every president since FDR has said that oil is critical to our survival and that the Saudis must be worked with to protect our security. Why would they then endanger that security by using Saudi and UAE pilots to conduct the attack?
The Saudis never declared war on the US officially and they know that the way to defeat the West is through immigration, resource purchases and $$$. Also, no administration has the cahonas to bomb Mecca. Unless we get MasterWolf or somebody like that in the White House, it's not going to happen. American leaders are too chicken and too ignorant to make that decision. The Saudis say they're America's Friend and the Americans have never heard of takia.
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Well for me it is more than that. I want Justice for my brothers blood. I will see Osama Bin Laden executed. I would like his head on a pike. I hate all Islamic Terrorists and my blood boils when I think people are trying to muddy the water.
The blame is on OBL and his terrorist network. They want to kill us. That is all there is.
You go on your mystery tour of conspiracy theory. You will never prove anything either way. As was said earlier, once you accept any aspect of the conspiracy, you will believe it completely. I reject the premise and know the facts. Our enemy tried to kill us, Amalek in the flesh. You think he works for the CIA.
Shalom
muman613
Well he was trained by the CIA and did many operations for them. That is undisputed.
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If they're not nagging you it's because you are relying on an article that may or may not be true instead of doing the research yourself.
These questions don't bother you because you never really spent the time to think about them and research. That's why they are not nagging you Muck. But I don't mind if they don't bother you I'm just wondering what you have to contribute to this thread, in that case?
I don't want you to wonder what I have to contribute to this thread.
So I'll be very clear (once again) for those who might be a little reading comprehension challenged, Lubab.
I'll clearly state that your 'nagging' questions don't nag at me because I've seen them all answered and debunked about a zillion times.
I'll clearly advise you to do your own research and come to your own conclusions regarding the events of 9/11. Except you really don't want answers because when you're given a source with answers you say "If people have answers that seem logical-great! But just referring me to an article is not an answer." Sorry, but referring you to an article that adresses your questions is an answer. It's not my problem that you're either too stubborn, lazy or stupid to read the article that can answer some of your questions, is it ?
I'll clearly advise you to tell this forum what you've concluded after you've done your research. If you want to conclude that 9/11 was a set-up akin to the Reichstag fire, that WTC building 7 was a controlled explosion, that the towers themselves were a controlled explosion....that's fine with me. If after you've rationally analyzed the evidence you still choose to conclude that 19 mooozies were hypnotized into hijacking 3 flights that day and crashing them into the WTC and Pentagon as part of some elaborate conspiracy, that's fine with me too.
One more thing:
I'll make a final contribution to this thread by clearly stating that the 9/11 troofers are out of their freaking minds !!!
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This is another weird thing.
When did Bush know about the attacks. He has two versions of the story one of which is impossible. Why the lies about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZBmfRBv-Go&NR=1
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I didn't get any true facts from that video. If they start talking logictics then I want to hear from the experts. The reason no construction experts would support that theory is that they have supported the government theory and it ends the conspiracy.
Also, if someone truly believes (and Lubab I'm not saying you do) that the government actually acted like Hitler and killed its own citizens for some maniacal plot, then you should not pay your taxes and should take up arms against the government. The reason people don't do this is because they are just coming up with theories and don't really believe this.
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If they're not nagging you it's because you are relying on an article that may or may not be true instead of doing the research yourself.
These questions don't bother you because you never really spent the time to think about them and research. That's why they are not nagging you Muck. But I don't mind if they don't bother you I'm just wondering what you have to contribute to this thread, in that case?
I don't want you to wonder what I have to contribute to this thread.
So I'll be very clear (once again) for those who might be a little reading comprehension challenged, Lubab.
I'll clearly state that your 'nagging' questions don't nag at me because I've seen them all answered and debunked about a zillion times.
I'll clearly advise you to do your own research and come to your own conclusions regarding the events of 9/11. Except you really don't want answers because when you're given a source with answers you say "If people have answers that seem logical-great! But just referring me to an article is not an answer." Sorry, but referring you to an article that adresses your questions is an answer. It's not my problem that you're either too stubborn, lazy or stupid to read the article that can answer some of your questions, is it ?
I'll clearly advise you to tell this forum what you've concluded after you've done your research. If you want to conclude that 9/11 was a set-up akin to the Reichstag fire, that WTC building 7 was a controlled explosion, that the towers themselves were a controlled explosion....that's fine with me. If after you've rationally analyzed the evidence you still choose to conclude that 19 mooozies were hypnotized into hijacking 3 flights that day and crashing them into the WTC and Pentagon as part of some elaborate conspiracy, that's fine with me too.
One more thing:
I'll make a final contribution to this thread by clearly stating that the 9/11 troofers are out of their freaking minds !!!
I read the article Muck. I even saw an hour long debate between the Popular Mechanics guys and the Loose Change Guys. You should watch it. It's pretty interesting. I think in many ways the Loose Change guys put them to shame.
I'm not the lazy one here.
I don't think they were hypnotized. I think they hate America and this was something that they wanted to do. But Muzzies are pretty dumb, as you and I know, and they pulled off this operation pretty darn well, and for some odd reason our military didn't do one effective thing to stop it...so logic leads me to believe these Moozies had some help.
I don't known for sure. But that's what seems logical to me.
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Bush making a verbal mistake....come on, that's not news!
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Only one of the Loose Change guys actually finished college and got a BA, so I'll trust the engineers with Masters degrees at PM.
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If you watch the interview between the Popular Mechanics authors and the Loose Change dudes you find something interesting. At several points in the debate the Popular Mechanics guys say "well we didn't research all the details"...the kids kept wanting to talk specifics about the events and they say "we didn't look into all the details".
Well if you didn't look into all the details then why the heck did you entitle the cover of your magazine "Debunking 9-11 myths".
When I saw them pull that garbage in that debate those Popular Mechanics guys lost a lot of credibility in my eyes. I would read their article VERY critically and not just swallow everything they say as if it's gospel because these guys have an ax to grind.
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Muslims have pulled off plenty of bombings in the past. They are evil but not dumb. They've been able to dig tunnels underneath Israeli positions and blow themselves up. When it comes to killing people, the Muslims are very creative!
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Only one of the Loose Change guys actually finished college and got a BA, so I'll trust the engineers with Masters degrees at PM.
Well they do have those kinds of guys on their side the problem as I said before is that as soon as they go public with their views they lose tenure and stuff like that..so it's difficult.
Maybe I will put together a list of real respected experts who question the official story when I get a chance.
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Bush making a verbal mistake....come on, that's not news!
Could be a verbal mistake but even a bad speaker doesn't screw up like that when they're just telling the honest story of what happened to them.
Wait a minute.
What was the verbal mistake? That he meant to say he saw the "second" plane go in, not the first? Well that would be a lie too because we have him on camera when he's informed about the second plane and he ain't watchin' no tv!
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Hillary Clinton with the sniper issue is a perfect example. She remembered it a certain way or lied to make the story sound better. Exaggeration or getting the story wrong is not unique or proof of a conspiracy. Anyways that was done by Canadian Broadcasting Network. They make PBS look like Savage. They also like any story that makes Canada look better than the US so they can feel important about themselves.
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Look at all of the left wing publications that are owned by Hearst (owner of Popular Mechanics). These guys are part of the establishment without a doubt.
Newspapers
* Albany Times Union
* Beaumont Enterprise
* Edwardsville Intelligencer (IL)
* Houston Chronicle
* Huron Daily Tribune (MI)
* Laredo Morning Times
* Midland Daily News
* Midland Reporter
* Plainview Daily Herald
* San Antonio Express-News
* San Francisco Chronicle
* Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Magazines
* Cosmopolitan
* CosmoGIRL!
* Country Living
* Country Living Gardener
* Esquire
*
* Harper's BAZAAR
*
* Lifetime
* Marie Claire
* O, The Oprah Magazine
* Popular Mechanics
* Redbook
* Seventeen
* Veranda
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Very interesting thread. I am inclined to agree with lulab, that one must try to understand this objectively, and not overreact by taking sides. At the end of the day, it's truth that matters, not our emotional attachment to a certain view. ;)
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If they're not nagging you it's because you are relying on an article that may or may not be true instead of doing the research yourself.
These questions don't bother you because you never really spent the time to think about them and research. That's why they are not nagging you Muck. But I don't mind if they don't bother you I'm just wondering what you have to contribute to this thread, in that case?
I don't want you to wonder what I have to contribute to this thread.
So I'll be very clear (once again) for those who might be a little reading comprehension challenged, Lubab.
I'll clearly state that your 'nagging' questions don't nag at me because I've seen them all answered and debunked about a zillion times.
I'll clearly advise you to do your own research and come to your own conclusions regarding the events of 9/11. Except you really don't want answers because when you're given a source with answers you say "If people have answers that seem logical-great! But just referring me to an article is not an answer." Sorry, but referring you to an article that adresses your questions is an answer. It's not my problem that you're either too stubborn, lazy or stupid to read the article that can answer some of your questions, is it ?
I'll clearly advise you to tell this forum what you've concluded after you've done your research. If you want to conclude that 9/11 was a set-up akin to the Reichstag fire, that WTC building 7 was a controlled explosion, that the towers themselves were a controlled explosion....that's fine with me. If after you've rationally analyzed the evidence you still choose to conclude that 19 mooozies were hypnotized into hijacking 3 flights that day and crashing them into the WTC and Pentagon as part of some elaborate conspiracy, that's fine with me too.
One more thing:
I'll make a final contribution to this thread by clearly stating that the 9/11 troofers are out of their freaking minds !!!
I read the article Muck. I even saw an hour long debate between the Popular Mechanics guys and the Loose Change Guys. You should watch it. It's pretty interesting. I think in many ways the Loose Change guys put them to shame.
I'm not the lazy one here.
I don't think they were hypnotized. I think they hate America and this was something that they wanted to do. But Muzzies are pretty dumb, as you and I know, and they pulled off this operation pretty darn well, and for some odd reason our military didn't do one effective thing to stop it...so logic leads me to believe these Moozies had some help.
I don't known for sure. But that's what seems logical to me.
Yeah, well I listened to the Pop Mech vs. Loose Screws (that's a better name for them) debate and the Loose Screws were embarrassing. How anyone could listen to that and think otherwise is beyond belief.
Since you mentioned 'logical' in your last sentence, let's use a little logic, shall we ?
You're advancing a theory that the WTC towers and building 7 were imploded in some sort of controlled demolition and not as a result of the moooozies flying the hijacked jets into the WTC. Can anyone explain why the conspirators wouldn't just blow up the WTC and blame it on the moooozies anyway ? I mean, why would you have them fly hijacked jets into the towers...when you could just blow them up and pin it on the moooozies anyway ? You can't be thinking that we'll somehow get these moooozies to hijack the jets and fly them into the WTC and then use explosives to bring them down, can you ? If you are, you're not only not being logical, you're positively out of your mind.
As far as the moooozies having help, you bet your butt they had help. They had the help of an America that failed to realize what a threat these Islamic scumbags are even after they murdered Rav Kahane and previously bombed the WTC.
And you know what ? They have the help today of fools that embrace absurd conspiracy theories or deny that the mooozies brought off 9/11 themselves.
The only people more absurd than the 9/11 'truthers' are the moooozies themselves. One minute they're claiming they didn't do it, and the next minute they're praising the 19 heroic martyrs.
It's really disappointing that a moderator on this forum has any doubts that the mooozies were responsible for and pulled off 9/11, and it's disgusting that you would compare the events of that tragic day to the Reichstag fire. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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So many of the conspiracies smell of anti-Semitism too. They have the name "Silverstein" in big letters in that video. It's very subtle anti-Semitism and you can see from many of those comments on Youtube.
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I lived in NY like many of you did. In August 01, there was an intercept that these terrorist (people believe USA the terrorist) but i didnt- it was intercepted out of the Persian Gulf, I know this, b/c I was watching the News, my friend said: Look at ALL of these US ships leaving the Gulf.. I said: THIS time, they will NOT hit the military, they WILL hit civilians and it will be bad.
Sept. 11 then followed.
The thing is, ON 9/11- WITHOUT hearing from Bush- EVERYONE just KNEW that terrorists did it. Why shouldnt they believe it?? noboy EVER thougt that ANYBODY would hit the USS COLE, but they did.
Directly AFTER 9/11 Al Queda was "In Ya FACE" CLAIMING responsibility. WHY isnt ANYONE investigating USS COLE?? WHY isnt ANYONE investigating 2 East African Embassies, WHY isnt ANYONE investigating the Bombing at the Olympics in Atlanta? WHY were there NO muzlim verdors downtown Manhattan that day? WHY were there NO muzlim taxi driver in Manhattan that day? Lot of people dont recall this info, but I DO.
My sister and I, witnessed 2 of the men from the Buffalo 6- we were part of helping track these terrorists down- we had winessed these A-rabs transferring LARGE duffl bags from a truck to a car- after we rurned them in- we KNOW (and were happy) that they CAUGHT them 2 days later.
This is an UGLY subect to me, so cya. Caio.
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There's no bluff to call here. I'm being perfectly honest with the way I see things.
I'll read it but I'd like to hear YOUR thoughts Brain. Please tell me which number question you are addressing and how you think it is resolved in your own words...because you can post links and so can I...and we can go on doing that all day without every really communicating.
Nobody has a problem with you making a thread like this, even if it is not "the party line". The reason everybody got mad at nikmatdam was because (a) he was insisting beyond all doubt that his speculations were true (instead of just raising them for discussion), (b) because he refused to stop when asked by moderators, and (c) because he was flaming people who were arguing against him.
As to your questions, my position is that apparent inconsistencies and strange facts can be found in all disasters and atrocities if one combs all of the evidence. There are always specific circumstances in any given face that make it appear to be unique or an outlier. I don't think it necessarily points to a grand alternate explanation being valid.
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Oh please. Not again. Drop this insanity.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
The leftists hate America so much that they have to stoop to this.
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I also feel that there are open questions about 9 11 since some of the explanations aren't very convincing.
I have watched some of the loose change stuff and many of their claims cannot be taken seriously because it's pure guessing, like these 4 camera shots showing something hitting the Pentacon. The quality is so poor that I could claim it shows Starship Enterprise with no one being able to disprove it.
But lets look at some of the points.
#1:
With 4 planes being hijacked there was a considerable amount of time left between leaving their planned course and crashing into buildings/fields.
I don't understand why during that time nothing serious happend when there are plans how to dealt with a situation like that.
These explanations like there was a misunderstanding between the tower and whoever and due to a simulation there were no planes available doesn't sound very convincing in my eyes.
However, authorities and administration has shown several times that they can handle things extremely incompetent. Might as well be a series of coincidences.
#2:
Apparently building 7 got hit by pieces of the collapsing towers, caugth fire and was enduring a litte earthquake when the towers went down. I dont know how close this building was to the twins but I can imaging that its stability was seriously affected through the collapse of the towers. The fact that it went down that straight indeed raises some questions. I can imagine that authorities decided to bring it down by destroying it in order to prevent it from collapsing while fire fighters are still inside, but that's only guessing.
#4:
These planes were filled up with fuel, so there was much to burn and develop great heat. In addition when the planes crashed, the towers were hit by tons of material with at least 300 mph. Thats an enormious force. Therefore I don't buy it when people say other towers have endured more heat for many hours and didnt collapse since these other buildings weren't hit by planes.
From what I understand the most critical area was may be 3 floors that were badly damaged.
The fact that people inside were able to wave despite the heat is an interesting point. I can imagine that the heat wasn't equally distributed depending on where the fires developed. If you have in addition holes in the wall then there may be spots with a temperature low enough to survive.
The claim that the worst heat and the damage was concentrated around certain spots is also supported by the fact that when the tower started to collaps the upper half (what was above the floors hit) appeares like a cube which is tilting/canting/inclining. <-- Sorry, dont know which one is appropriate, in German: Würfel, der kippt.
It comes from the fact that one of the 4 corners lost stability first where the heat and damage was worst.
Once one corner of a floor collapses the whole floor collapses and the toppling/tilting part is being pulled straight. Since there were many more floors (equals enormious weight) above the one collapsing the whole building goes down.
This is how I understand it. Is it convincing and realistic? Well at least for me it is.
#6:
I dont know exactly what Bush did more than a few moments after he got the information.
These ten seconds after he was informed were used by Michael Moore to ridicule Bush. I think that's dishonest because what did Moore expect him to do? To jump around shouting "Disaster, disaster" in front of all the kids?
Even if the US administration wasn't involved at all, you must give him a few minutes to collect and think about it.
#7:
The story about the passports being found on a pile of rubble is hard to believe. But on the other hand you had plane crashes where parts of the luggage were found more or less undamaged. Might again be another concidence.
#8:
I dont understand that as well, because also the footage of several cameras around the Pentacon was
confiscated and never published.
Sadly the behaviour of US authorities/admimistration raises many questions.
Basically we have two opinions. Those who say it was an inside job. They claim that the pentacon was hit by a missle. How do you then explain the debris which was mainly ripped parts of a plane? It doesn't work, since more or less they also claim that there is not islamic terrorism since it's all done by the US.
Thats certianly nonsense.
We also have those who assume that is was a result of islamic terror and that US intelligence was completely unprepared and didn't have a clue.
Unfortenately we have people on both sides who seem to be credible.
I believe it was islamic terror but I find it hard to swallow that the US authorities were completely surprised.
I have a question too:
It was said that the hijackers shouted allahuakbar before the planes crashed. Where do they know that from? Did they find the black boxes and published it?
Finally, doubting some of the explanations around 9 11 doesn't turn one into a supporter of conspiracy or a lunatic.
I also want to add that those who sadly lost relatives and friends on 9 11 shouldn't possibly read all this stuff. I can imagine that it doesn't do any good to discuss all the details.
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The main reason why I believe 9-11 was not an inside job is the most obvious: the last thing that Bush, the Saudi-lover, would ever want is any kind of publicity that makes his overlords look bad. The two planes crashing into the towers pretty much did exactly that. I honestly believe his first reaction to this was "oh s***, how are we gonna spin our way out of this one?".
However, there are lots of circumstantial reasons to dismiss these theories as well. I have never seen a 9-11 conspiracy theorist who was not out to prove that it was the Jews who were behind 9-11. I have not ever encountered a "9-11 truther" who is not an outright Nazi. In fact, a good number of 9-11 conspiracy theorists are outright White Nationalists of the David Duke ilk.
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Something that is disturbing that I don't think you mentioned:
Condi Rice told her friend Willie Brown, the former mayor of San Francisco, not to take a flight on 9/11. She has yet to answer the question of why she gave him that advice. When she was asked it, she avoids answering the question and tries to change the topic.
If Condi Rice and some politicians are guilty of knowing something, Michael Moore's friend Al Gore would probably be guilty for what he did:
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/19/94144.shtml
However, the hijackers are guilty for what they did. Many of the conspiracy theorists want people to think that there isn't any threat. They are wrong.
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There was an actor, James Woods, who was on a flight with some of the hijackers at least a month before 9/11.
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http://michellemalkin.com/2005/04/24/report-mohammed-atta-was-on-flight-with-actor-james-woods/
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Another thread that will go on and on and on wasting time and energy better spent trying to bring down Obama.
Give it a rest.
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Fortunately for any one who had the time, opportunity and consideration to read the Guestbook atwww.kahane.org from July'2001 to June'2002 when they were closed down, he is least likely to believe in any conspiracy theories. :'(
With Regards...
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I am SURE that London thinks the USA bombed in London, and Spain, they feel that King GWB 43 did that the the Spaniards, Bali too. America is just doing this to everyone. Terrible ROTTEN Americans.
BLAME AMERICA ALWAYS..............FIRST, we are the terrorists dont you know? **== **==
If you all believe this [censored]'n bull, go line up to join Jeremiah Wright- so YOU TOO can Gd "d" America.
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Let me answer the first question:
you wrote:1. Apparently we have a whole lot of Air Force Defenses in this country. We have a very high tech military. Maybe the best in the world. This military has protocols on how to deal with hijacked planes. It is my understanding that even commercial flights that go off slightly are quickly surrounded on both sides with US fighter planes on both sides. NORAD I believe is the organization in charge of this stuff.
Here's the deal...after Bill Clinton leading into GW Bush, all of us Americans were reticent and happy with everything the economy...we felt invincible and proud. We felt safer than ever... Even Norad felt safer than ever. These terrorists attacked us from behind while we were looking straight ahead for fighter planes and missles coming from the Russians or somebody else...that's why we didnt' get there on time..that's why Al-Queda mastermined very successfully what they wanted to do. Now we learned..
As far as youtube testimonies...Youtube is BS...youtube doesn't know anything..anybody can make up anytyhing they want on there and present it like a fact...So i don't buy anything from youtube if it is "testimony"...People lie today...Therefore, I trust very few.
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I know a congregant of my synogogue who escaped tower 2 after tower 1 was hit...
and a patient of my brother's who worked at the WTC had a doctor's appointment that morning and essentially missed his chance to be trapped in the WTC that morning..
I guess they were all behind the planning of the WTC... ::) Khasvakhaleela...
sometimes what is obvious is exactly what it is...Alqueda outsmarted us..hopefully that will be the only time...
Except, now we have Obama getting away wiht murder..so it might just be that Americans are stupid...We are stupid...
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you skipped question number #5... what was it...? and okl. city was the dry-run for 9/11... proof is in the book... "the third terrorist" by jayna davis... check it out... she proves a consp. to cover up the existence of an iraqi ex-republican national guard member to sadaam... (the infamous john doe#2)... she is so well rec'vd... talk radio was puzzled by her proof that iraq had what to do with okl. city and bush didn't (or clinton either)... use this as justification for going into iraq...? and the answer which no one wants to hear... is that bush couldn't use what happened in okl. city bec. it would expose the cia/nsa structure of running al qaeda and blow the cover of the existence of the shadow gov't. that really runs this place... so as a lesser of two evils (for the slime anyway it is evil)... they resorted to and preferred to utilize a lie... a patently false fabrication of evidence of the existence of wmd... instead of using the truth to make their case with congress and the amer. people for going to war in iraq... they had to use a bald-face lie rather than the truth... bec. the truth is that while iraqi scum were involved they all had handlers from the mossad, cia and the fbi... and the above mentioned book proves this contention!!! it makes the case fro something truly sick rotting away at the heart of america and the world... and i know what it is... nik. on the cusp as usual... out....
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Lubab i know what you want. A million dollars!
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Lubab i know what you want. A million dollars!
(http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_movies_actors/film_images/Austin_Powers_Mike_Myers_as_Dr_Evil.jpg)
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It's funny. You guys trust Bush and the establishment media on so little, but on this very important issue you are willing to buy their story and let it pass with little to no scrutiny. There was an article debunking it...case closed...well it's not case closed. You need to be a critical reader. Just because there's on article claiming to debunk the theory does not mean it has been debunked.
There's also articles debunking that article, so should we just believe the last person who had an article claiming to debunk the other?
No! We should use our brains.
There was a very thick metal core inside those buildings...even if the floors pancaked that core should have remained...ask yourself if it little to know trace of it. Ask yourself if that makes sense instead of just swallowing one side's view just because it happens to be more popularly accepted.
I'm getting personal messages from a lot of people since I opened this thread who agree with me and/or are expressing doubts about our government's aid in these events. They apparently won't go public with it because of the mockery they surely will be forced to endure.
But that's wrong. People should be able to discuss their views and opinions without mockery.
P.S. This takes nothing away from the need to stop Islam. Their terrorism and hate for us has long been proved.
But since we know how ineffective Bush's War on Terror has been, ignoring all the important dangers Islam poses and focusing on things like..."democracy in the Middle East"...it's not a counter-JTF position to wonder whose side he's really on.
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::)
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It's funny. You guys trust Bush and the establishment media on so little, but on this very important issue you are willing to buy their story and let it pass with little to no scrutiny. There was an article debunking it...case closed...well it's not case closed. You need to be a critical reader. Just because there's on article claiming to debunk the theory does not mean it has been debunked.
There's also articles debunking that article, so should we just believe the last person who had an article claiming to debunk the other?
No! We should use our brains.
There was a very thick metal core inside those buildings...even if the floors pancaked that core should have remained...ask yourself if it little to know trace of it. Ask yourself if that makes sense instead of just swallowing one side's view just because it happens to be more popularly accepted.
I'm getting personal messages from a lot of people since I opened this thread who agree with me and/or are expressing doubts about our government's aid in these events. They apparently won't go public with it because of the mockery they surely will be forced to endure.
But that's wrong. People should be able to discuss their views and opinions without mockery.
P.S. This takes nothing away from the need to stop Islam. Their terrorism and hate for us has long been proved.
But since we know how ineffective Bush's War on Terror has been, ignoring all the important dangers Islam poses and focusing on things like..."democracy in the Middle East"...it's not a counter-JTF position to wonder whose side he's really on.
Lubab, you are correct that we should examine things very critically..
but in this case of 9/11...there wasn't a conspiracy..in my opinion. It was what it was and Al-Queda fooled us...and we are still chumps till this day wtih Obama on teh verge of possibly becoming president...Even if Obama were a good guy, most Americans would know better to not trust someone even for his name...
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Okay I pick #2. The one about building #7. That is one of the hardest ones for me to swallow.
OK... Heres your question.
2. WTC Building #7. It was not hit by a plane. You can see it had some small fires in a few floors. The media coverage of the fires in that building were reported in the major media and are available on YT as well. What caused it to collapse later in the day around 5:30 in about 7 seconds. It collapsed neatly and completely into it's own footprint for no apparent reason that I can think of. I've seen much weaker buildings with much worse fires burn for much much longer and they don't collapse at all. They just sort get gutted from the inside and the frame remains. Here nothing remained. Absolutely everything went down all in one shot for no good reason.
Larry Silverstein was on PBS a few days later and said he asked "them" to "pull it" "and we watched the building come down". "Pull it" is a phrase known to be used by demolition workers when they do a controlled demolition. If it was a controlled demolition how did they set that up so fast amongst all the chaos of the day? Correct me if I'm wrong but a controlled demolition would take weeks to set up, and why would they set one up in the first place?
It's notable that Larry Silverstein owned the twin towers and Building #7 and profited greatly from the insurance policies he'd taken out on his buildings weeks before the events. His buildings were the only ones that collapsed.
OK.. here goes my answer…..
C.T. (Conspiracy theorirsts)
CLAIM 1 BY C.T.
The fires observed in Building 7 prior to its collapse were isolated in small parts of the building, and were puny by comparison to other building fires, and could have never triggered its collapse.
RESPONSE
The burning in WTC 7 were EXTREMELY extensive. Here is a picture (Not doctored) showing the fires of WTC 7 burning well before its collapse.
(http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11images/fig3.jpg)
Ive added additional Video... since Nik responded that he thought the photo was taken after another building was toppling.. and the smoke wasnt actually coming from WTC 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Also check out this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure. Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason. hmmmm.. I wonder why?!?
Short clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-bp22B92Zc
Here is the LOWER south side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsqBE-aybV0
(Here you can here the fireman saying... 'thats why they PULLED everyone out of here'.... (Discussing the instabillity of the building)
How does the 9/11 Truth Movement ignore this?? The Truth Movement’s presentations and documentaries only show the north side, and not the side with all the flames.
More Proof:
Firefighter Richard Banaciski notes the difference in appearance between the north and south sides of the building in his first-person account:
‘We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors.’
More Proof:
Emergency response workers at Ground Zero realized that extensive damage to the lower south section of WTC 7 would cause collapse as early as 3 pm on 9/11, a fact reported on news broadcasts at the time
I personally remember this being reported over and over again by the news… and am shocked that C.T. always ignore this. The news (On nearly every channel) kept telling us from a variety of independent experts that the building would fall.
Again… all of this is ignored by C.T.
More Proof:
Video footage shows that when collapse occurred, the south wall of the building gave in first, which is exactly what we would expect based on the location of the most extensive damage.
CLAIM 2 BY C.T.
Silverstein’s allegely “confesses” that he authorized the tower’s destruction. The quote in question comes from a September, 2002 PBS Special called America Rebuilds
“We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.” And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.14
And since “pull it” is “industry jargon for taking a building down with explosives.. he must have meant it was prepped tobe demolished long before.
C.T. believe that Larry Silverstein destroyed WTC Building 7, in order to claim a huge insurance payoff
RESPONSE:
Silverstein was talking about the fire unit… not the building. He was speaking about pulling the fire unit out of the building because the loss of life was already. But if you don’t believe me or him… read on.
People in the fire industry often use the word PULL to describe ‘pulling out a unit from an operation (Example on 9/11, one first responder said, there were ‘tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out.’) (there are many more examples)
Also..
There were dozens of firefighters from multiple units present in and around WTC 7 in evacuation and rescue missions until late in the day on 9/11. They were there from the first response… and they stayed there all the way until they were ordered to ‘pull’ out, because it was too dangerous. NONE OF THEM TELL ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO WHAT COSNSPIRATISTS THINK. All of their stories are consistent. , (Unless you believe that they are all involved with a giant conspiracy)
Prepping a building for demolition takes considerable time and effort. The building needs to be partially gutted to allow explosives intimate contact with the structure of the building. It is a huge undertaking.
ALL of the WTC buildings were occupied right up to 9/11, how did the government or Larry gain access to wire complete demolition and to gut the buildings without anyone noticing? Since there were no casualties in WTC 7, all youd need is 1 person to say they saw something suspicious… and there wasn’t a SINGLE person to do so.
(BTW even the 9/11 Truth Movement admits that this is a big hole in their theory)
ALSO.. If this were true about Silverstein doing this to get insurance money, and he was such a maniacal genius.. . why would he tell the world of his plot on a PBS special shortly after? (Which the insurance company would do everything is possibly could to nullify any claims.. and he would then spend years in jail.)
ALSO the insurance policies he'd taken out on his buildings weeks before were the exact same plans he had on the building since it was first constructed. He wasn’t ‘taking out’ a brand new policy… he was simply renewing a policy that he had since the building was first built. There was NO new coverage added and nothing suspicious about it.
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
dan... one's opinion has nothing to say here... either there was a conspiracy or there was not... either evidence can be found or there cannot be found any... either the proof is convincing or it is not... all on objective criteria and with true scientific rules and standards of research... but opinion has no right to lift up its ugly head... nik. out... to the both o' yuz...
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Also check out this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure. Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason. hmmmm.. I wonder why?!?
Short clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-bp22B92Zc
Here is the LOWER south side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsqBE-aybV0
(Here you can here the fireman saying... 'thats why they PULLED everyone out of here'.... (Discussing the instabillity of the building)
What else you got??
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
Oh, also, I dont talk about Presidents during Wartime, I messed up a couple times, and did screw up- but it IS sedition. This would have NEVER been acceptable to dis a President like this, BEFORE the terrible 1960's. I will REMAIN a decent person, and American.
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
Once again.. Thanks Paullete.. :) I couldnt have said it better myself.
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
Once again.. Thanks Paullete.. :) I couldnt have said it better myself.
Well Briann-- IF this were true, WHY isnt Spain conducting all of these conspiracy arguments? Or London, or Bali- or what about the USS COLE, the Olympics at Atlanta, the 2 East African Embassies?? Really, to believe in evil behind evil is evilness personified. I dont have time to be part of the "Twilight Zone" http://youtube.com/watch?v=RxKPRAR64QQ
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
Once again.. Thanks Paullete.. :) I couldnt have said it better myself.
Paullette,
I also lived in NYC at the time so maybe you should listen to what I say about it...
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Also check out this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure. Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason. hmmmm.. I wonder why?!?
Short clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-bp22B92Zc
Here is the LOWER south side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsqBE-aybV0
(Here you can here the fireman saying... 'thats why they PULLED everyone out of here'.... (Discussing the instabillity of the building)
What else you got??
Ok. There is a lot of controversy surrounding that picture you posted...it's not a simple matter. I'll get into it soon when I am able.
But let's say your right. Let's say there was a big fire in the building.
Since when do big fires in a buildng cause an entire steel structure building to collapse entirely in less than 10 seconds at basically free-fall speed? Does this make any sense to you at all?
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Brian,
I will watch all your videos and react.
But since when do you use the word "it" (singular) to refer to a fleet of firefighters?!
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
Oh, also, I dont talk about Presidents during Wartime, I messed up a couple times, and did screw up- but it IS sedition. This would have NEVER been acceptable to dis a President like this, BEFORE the terrible 1960's. I will REMAIN a decent person, and American.
Well if we're wrong than it's sedition, if we're right than he's the traitor. An investigation to find out which is which is not sedition.
Jews should never blindly trust their non-Jewish government no matter how friendly it seems. Haven't 3,000 years of galut and mayhem at the hands of our non-Jewish hosts taught us at least that much?!
Bush is doing almost nothing effective to fight the real war we need to be fighting against Islam so there isn't much of a "war effort" to betray here in the first place. You can't have a war on terror and have BBQs which the Saudi Royal family and tell the American people that the Saudis are our "friends" and "Islam is a religion of peace". Those things just don't go together and never will.
I wish their was a real war on terror unfortunately this one seems to be a fraud.
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
I was in Fort Lee NJ on 9-ll and had a very good view of Manhattan from the conference room I was sitting in. I did not see the planes hit the trade center but I sat for hours watching the smoke raise up from the spot where the two great buildings once stood. As I was going into the building a fighter jet took off from Teterbourgh Airport just a mile or so from where I was. It was the most frightening thing I ever saw because you could see it was not a takeoff that had any thing to do with a practice or drill. We were plainly under attack that day. The jet took off at full power and it was over a place that they would never normally fly unless there was real trouble. Later in the day I had to make my way back to Long Island and I did so by going north to the Tappan Zee Bridge and then over the Throgs Neck Bridge. As I crossed the bridges I could see the last 20 or 30 floors of one of the towers still standing but smoldering. The building later completely collapsed into a heap. It was very distressing to actually see the remains of the building burning. The city was in such disarray that day that they had stopped collecting the tolls on the bridges. Thank G-d a police officer was nice enough to let me get on to the highway in the Bronx to get over the bridge or I would not have been able to get home. Anyone that thinks that this could be done by anyone other that Bin Laden and company really should have long ago moved out of America. To think like that is only aiding and abetting the true enemies of the American people. I honestly have no regard for anyone that could feel that America would kill its own people.
-
bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Also check out this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure. Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason. hmmmm.. I wonder why?!?
Short clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-bp22B92Zc
Here is the LOWER south side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsqBE-aybV0
(Here you can here the fireman saying... 'thats why they PULLED everyone out of here'.... (Discussing the instabillity of the building)
What else you got??
Ok. There is a lot of controversy surrounding that picture you posted...it's not a simple matter. I'll get into it soon when I am able.
But let's say your right. Let's say there was a big fire in the building.
Since when do big fires in a buildng cause an entire steel structure building to collapse entirely in less than 10 seconds at basically free-fall speed?
Does this make any sense to you at all?
Well, John Kerry makes a little sense about it. Is he swiftboating that too? http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/220407_kerry_wtc7.html
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buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...
-
bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
I was in Fort Lee NJ on 9-ll and had a very good view of Manhattan from the conference room I was sitting in. I did not see the planes hit the trade center but I sat for hours watching the smoke raise up from the spot where the two great buildings once stood. As I was going into the building a fighter jet took off from Teterbourgh Airport just a mile or so from where I was. It was the most frightening thing I ever saw because you could see it was not a takeoff that had any thing to do with a practice or drill. We were plainly under attack that day. The jet took off at full power and it was over a place that they would never normally fly unless there was real trouble. Later in the day I had to make my way back to Long Island and I did so by going north to the Tappan Zee Bridge and then over the Throgs Neck Bridge. As I crossed the bridges I could see the last 20 or 30 floors of one of the towers still standing but smoldering. The building later completely collapsed into a heap. It was very distressing to actually see the remains of the building burning. The city was in such disarray that day that they had stopped collecting the tolls on the bridges. Thank G-d a police officer was nice enough to let me get on to the highway in the Bronx to get over the bridge or I would not have been able to get home. Anyone that thinks that this could be done by anyone other that Bin Laden and company really should have long ago moved out of America. To think like that is only aiding and abetting the true enemies of the American people. I honestly have no regard for anyone that could feel that America would kill its own people.
CJD- I know!!!! If this were some 'conspiracy' and they KNEW it was- tell me why I lived up in Shokan Reservoir Upstate NY, where the National Guard was in control, and NOBODY could go over the bridge above the reservoir for a YEAR.
People will ALWAYS do this JUNK- but I REMEMBER what it was like having the National Guard pull me over at RANDOM for NO APPARENT REASON- 75 miles NORTH of NYC.
The US Govt sure took an AWFUL LOT of time, to make sure we would ALL be affected
DUH DUH DUH
9/11/01 WAS DONE BY TERRORISTS. HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO>? http://youtube.com/watch?v=invo5D6SuBQ
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buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...
Delft University of Technology in Holland on fire and collapsing
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ff1_1210707903
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buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...
Nik> Spain? London? Bali? 2 East African Embassies? the Bombing at the Atlanta Olympics? WTC 1993? USS COLE? ISRAEL? >THS US GOVT?
I DONT THINK SO.
2800 degrees of HEAT WILL MELT down buildings made of STEEL. Which is WHY they did NOT target the Empire State building- IT IS IRON.
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i saw it... fine... but that bldg. was made from cinderblock (cement) not steel!!!! i meant steel bldg's don't collapse... and i would love to have seen what remained from the bottom floors after the smoke cleared away... the left side seemed still intact... couldn't make out the right... at the same level of the fire... and if you look carefully at the twin towers... as the top is falling downward the bottom had already started to give way bef. the top parts reached them... in the film you sent the bottom stays solid until the top reaches it and then and only then is it seen... i think... to also collapse from the weight... no bombs in its basement like there were by the twin towers... you guys have never watched any of the loosechange stuff on this point have you...? editions 1-3... anyone of them will show you the falsehood of the official line of 9/11... you just have to be willing to seek the truth whatever it may be... if you are not open to it... you are a slave and are as good as already dead by your own hand bec. you refuse to think for yourself... nik. out...
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I haven't made up my mind. I would love nothing more than if Brian's sources give me a good logical explanation...we'll see if they do.
-
bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
I was in Fort Lee NJ on 9-ll and had a very good view of Manhattan from the conference room I was sitting in. I did not see the planes hit the trade center but I sat for hours watching the smoke raise up from the spot where the two great buildings once stood. As I was going into the building a fighter jet took off from Teterbourgh Airport just a mile or so from where I was. It was the most frightening thing I ever saw because you could see it was not a takeoff that had any thing to do with a practice or drill. We were plainly under attack that day. The jet took off at full power and it was over a place that they would never normally fly unless there was real trouble. Later in the day I had to make my way back to Long Island and I did so by going north to the Tappan Zee Bridge and then over the Throgs Neck Bridge. As I crossed the bridges I could see the last 20 or 30 floors of one of the towers still standing but smoldering. The building later completely collapsed into a heap. It was very distressing to actually see the remains of the building burning. The city was in such disarray that day that they had stopped collecting the tolls on the bridges. Thank G-d a police officer was nice enough to let me get on to the highway in the Bronx to get over the bridge or I would not have been able to get home. Anyone that thinks that this could be done by anyone other that Bin Laden and company really should have long ago moved out of America. To think like that is only aiding and abetting the true enemies of the American people. I honestly have no regard for anyone that could feel that America would kill its own people.
Well the government is not "America". Governments historically do kill their own people and I know that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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i saw it... fine... but that bldg. was made from cinderblock (cement) not steel!!!! i meant steel bldg's don't collapse... and i would love to have seen what remained from the bottom floors after the smoke cleared away... the left side seemed still intact... couldn't make out the right... at the same level of the fire... and if you look carefully at the twin towers... as the top is falling downward the bottom had already started to give way bef. the top parts reached them... in the film you sent the bottom stays solid until the top reaches it and then and only then is it seen i think... to also collapse from the weight... no bombs in its basement like there were by the twin towers... you guys have never watched any of the loosechange stuff on this point have you... editions 1-3... anyone of them will show you the falsehood of the official line of 9/11... you just have to be willing to seek the truth whatever it may be... if you are not open to it... you are a slave and are as good as already dead by your own hand bec. you refuse to think for yourself... nik. out...
Nik, I lived WAY Upstate NY- 75 miles AWAY. If this was NOT a terrorist attack WHY spend ALL of that $$ on the National Guard for OVER A YEAR? The Lukawanna 6, I suppose, they were ALSO the US GOVT ? Nik- EVERYONE know EXACTLY what happened after 9-11. I didnt have to "think for myself' I am a NY-ER I LIVED THROUGH IT.
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Also check out this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure. Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason. hmmmm.. I wonder why?!?
Short clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-bp22B92Zc
Here is the LOWER south side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsqBE-aybV0
(Here you can here the fireman saying... 'thats why they PULLED everyone out of here'.... (Discussing the instabillity of the building)
What else you got??
Ok. There is a lot of controversy surrounding that picture you posted...it's not a simple matter. I'll get into it soon when I am able.
But let's say your right. Let's say there was a big fire in the building.
Since when do big fires in a buildng cause an entire steel structure building to collapse entirely in less than 10 seconds at basically free-fall speed? Does this make any sense to you at all?
OK... this is why conspiracists focus on Building 7... since there was NO jet fuel.. and therefore, nothing could burn through Metal.
This is their argument: steel-framed skyscrapers have never collapsed from fire, since they’re built from steel that doesn’t melt below 2750° Fahrenheit. (This is also known as the Rosie O Donel Argument)
Response:
There was NO melted steel. 1 Contractors reported seeing a melted greyish material in very small amounts.. and 9/11 truthists have fixated on it. Based upon everything he described... the material was aluminum, a component of the WTC structural material.. which obviusly burns at a much lower temperature.
Best estimates believe that the temperature (based upon the materials that were burning) in WTC 7 probably reached about 1000 degrees. This is NOT enough to burn steel. (somthing rosie kept bringing up)
HOWEVER!!! steel loses 50% of its strength at 650° F.. and at 1000 degrees it can lose as much as 75% of its strength.
THIS is why all the independant experts all said that building 7 WOULD collapse, and its just rediculous to believe that all these experts on all these panels and would know LESS than the 9/11 truthers.
Point 2:
Many of the presenters at the 9/11 truth conferences compare videos of the collapse of the towers with videos of known controlled demolitions, noting the similarity in both the appearance and speed of collapse
RESPONSE:
In controlled demolitions, detonating devices weaken or disrupt all major support points in a building at the same time. Therefore, once the collapse begins, all parts of the building are simultaneously in motion, free-falling to the ground.
in the WTC collapse.. you will find that the parts of the buildings above and at the weak points will fall... while the lower parts of the buildings are initially stationary. This is true of all 3 buildings... but its more obvious in WTC 1 and 2, since their weak points were more focused. The parts of the towers below the impact point do not begin to fall until the higher floors have collapsed onto them. An interesting point is that there has NEVER been a controlled demolition.. where the lower parts of the buildings are initially stationary.
with building 7.. the same occured... however the fall started on the South Side where the structural hole was created form the intense burning.
POint 3:
“pancaking” onto the floors below at or near the speed of a free fall just is not physically possible. It must have been rigged.
The floors where the collapse began were obviusly the weakest (We assume the steel strength there was about 25% of what it normally would be based upon the approximated temperature). Now once a floor collapses... it now has the weight (momentum would be more accurate) of not only this floor... but of all the floors above it. So basically you have the weight of 20 or so floors falling at the same time... and they fall on the floor directly below the initial collapse. The floor directly below the initial collapse would obviously be weak (since its right next to the fire that caused the floor above it to collapse). So this weakened floor will then collapse...and when this happens... the floor below it now has to deal with the weight of the initial collapse + 1. And the one below it + 2, and the one below it. + 3.. and so forth. It becomes so heavy... and with so much momentum that it becomes like an unstoppable avalanche.
This is gone over in GREAT detail in the popular science article.
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buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...
Nik> Spain? London? Bali? 2 East African Embassies? the Bombing at the Atlanta Olympics? WTC 1993? USS COLE? ISRAEL? >THS US GOVT?
I DONT THINK SO.
2800 degrees of HEAT WILL MELT down buildings made of STEEL. Which is WHY they did NOT target the Empire State building- IT IS IRON.
And tons of cement and brick. The trade center was very light construction it was made to allow great open spaces on each floor. Once steel or iron gets hot it bends like a stick of butter. Anyone only has to watch an old time blacksmith heat iron and bend it with the slightest of ease to see why the trade center went down. In the first attack it was only a blast and the building was able to survive it with moderate damage. It was the tons of fuel that really was the deadly ingredient on 9-11.
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buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...
Nik.. I responded to your post above. Please tell me what part you dissbeleive.
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IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK ON THE WTC- WTC 7 WAS TAKEN DOWN BY NYC. What is the PROBLEMA HERE? I keep REPOSTING the SAME thing. Some of you people are too damned THICK. Not ME, YOU.
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It's funny. You guys trust Bush and the establishment media on so little, but on this very important issue you are willing to buy their story and let it pass with little to no scrutiny. There was an article debunking it...case closed...well it's not case closed. You need to be a critical reader. Just because there's on article claiming to debunk the theory does not mean it has been debunked.
There's also articles debunking that article, so should we just believe the last person who had an article claiming to debunk the other?
No! We should use our brains.
Let me know when you're going to start using yours.
There was a very thick metal core inside those buildings...even if the floors pancaked that core should have remained...ask yourself if it little to know trace of it. Ask yourself if that makes sense instead of just swallowing one side's view just because it happens to be more popularly accepted.
First of all, there wasn't a very thick metal core inside those buildings. You simply don't know what you're talking about. The WTC used an innovative construction technique in which the outer skin of the towers bore most of the load required to keep a structure that large standing.
Secondly, what did you expect to still be standing when a structure 100 stories tall collapses ? Maybe you think the elevator shafts should remain standing by themselves hundreds of feet in the air while the rest of the structure collapses ?
Thirdly, you're still suggesting that the towers came down as part of a controlled implosion. So let's use our brains and think what this would require. This would mean that hundreds (maybe thousands) of pounds of explosives would have had to be brought into the buildings, strategically placed, and then wired into a network in order to accomplish a controlled detonation and implosion. This would require a massive undertaking, yet somehow this endeavor remained undetected. Sorry, this just isn't credible. If you have a brain and are using it, this should be obvious. Additionally, your absurd speculative version of 9/11 requires getting and allowing mooozies to slam jets into the WTC to cover up the already planned implosion. If you subscribe to this theory, you're not only not using your brain, you might not have one.
I'm getting personal messages from a lot of people since I opened this thread who agree with me and/or are expressing doubts about our government's aid in these events. They apparently won't go public with it because of the mockery they surely will be forced to endure.
But that's wrong. People should be able to discuss their views and opinions without mockery.
P.S. This takes nothing away from the need to stop Islam. Their terrorism and hate for us has long been proved.
But since we know how ineffective Bush's War on Terror has been, ignoring all the important dangers Islam poses and focusing on things like..."democracy in the Middle East"...it's not a counter-JTF position to wonder whose side he's really on.
Well, one thing we don't have to wonder about is what side the 9/11 'truthers' are on. As has been noted by another poster earlier in this thread, the 9/11 truthers are almost invariably antisemitic. They always come back to Silverstein the Jew being part of the conspiracy. They take great pleasure in talking about the Mossad being involved. They love to use the code word 'necons' to refer to some vast Jewish/zionist conspiracy designed to plunge America into war with the friendly, naively innocent muslims. The common undercurrent and theme of sites like 'whatreallyhappened.com' is that 9/11 was a zionist conspiracy designed to benefit Israel and pulled off by the Jewish dominated neocons.
There's another poster in this thread that was gently asked by Chaim to consider leaving the forum due to some bizarre beliefs about the Vatican being involved in 9/11 and what effect such beliefs have on the credibility of JTF. It's really unfortunate that now a moderator of the JTF forum would endorse the lunatic and antisemitic theories advocated by the 'truthers'. Lubab, you're entitled to subscribe to whatever 9/11 'truth' beliefs you might have; but as a moderator and leader you also need to consider what effect advocating such beliefs might have on the legitimacy and credibility of JTF and the JewsAgainstObama campaign.
Use your brain.
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briann i did respond above to you... what is it that did not satisfy you...?nik.
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There's another poster in this thread that was gently asked by Chaim to consider leaving the forum due to some bizarre beliefs about the Vatican being involved in 9/11 and what effect such beliefs have on the credibility of JTF. It's really unfortunate that now a moderator of the JTF forum would endorse the lunatic and antisemitic theories advocated by the 'truthers'. Lubab, you're entitled to subscribe to whatever 9/11 'truth' beliefs you might have; but as a moderator and leader you also need to consider what effect advocating such beliefs might have on the legitimacy and credibility of JTF and the JewsAgainstObama campaign.
Use your brain.[/b]
Theres actually at least 2 members... probably more. the conspiracy's of Nik (not Lubab) caused extraordinary damage.
I am only continuing this argument... sorta as a test. I can continue it in private... if you think this would be better.
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IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK ON THE WTC- WTC 7 WAS TAKEN DOWN BY NYC. What is the PROBLEMA HERE? I keep REPOSTING the SAME thing. Some of you people are too damned THICK. Not ME, YOU.
So you are admitting NYC demolished the building? That is NOT the official story. But if so, how did they get the explosives in there so fast to be able to do that.
I hear it takes a month of preparation for a good controlled demolition.
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briann i did respond above to you... what is it that did not satisfy you...?nik.
Yes.. you responded... and I responded back showing you that the photo was NOT right after WTC 1 or 2 fell down.. by showing you 3 to 4 videos of the south side... all showing the same damage.. If you want to respond to these videos.. please do.
Then I responded to the allegations of fire not being able to bring down the building. Please read that as well... and then respond.
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so bry... why did it take 7 hours or more for bldg. 7 a much smaller bldg (47 stories instead of over a hundred each) to collapse and the twin towers both fell in just over an hour of burning...? and don't give me rocket fuel... cause that evaporates in minutes and is gone... if bldg. 7 is so engulfed in fire as you claim... and the twin towers were barely on fire way up on top... how did it take hrs. to collapse...? such utter rubbish and nonsense... nik. the truth will out... out...
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I haven't made up my mind. I would love nothing more than if Brian's sources give me a good logical explanation...we'll see if they do.
Im empressed Lubab... your more open minded than most. I am a professor... and I LOVE teaching and this does not bother me one bit. Just as long as no one starts calling eachother Nazis or cursing them to death. :)
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you said the film of total smoke is from 1:20 in the afternoon... the bldg. fell at what 4:30 or five...? nik.
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
dan... one's opinion has nothing to say here... either there was a conspiracy or there was not... either evidence can be found or there cannot be found any... either the proof is convincing or it is not... all on objective criteria and with true scientific rules and standards of research... but opinion has no right to lift up its ugly head... nik. out... to the both o' yuz...
ummm...nik...I purposely had "in my opinion" because everything we post here are opinions..just that nobody says that usually because they think their opinions are facts and state them like facts. Since i'm a nice honest person, I make sure that I emphasize that it's all my opinion.
Lubab's thread here is also an opinion..not a fact...you can state things all you want like they are facts, but really they are opinions.
Want to hear some facts?
The sky is blue in the daytime, oxygenated blood is red in human beings, NJ is smaller than NY and California is bigger than NY...just to give you some examples.
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oh wow... doc... gee... thanks... don't know what i'd do w/out u... nik. in your debt... out...
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you said the film of total smoke is from 1:20 in the afternoon... the bldg. fell at what 4:30 or five...? nik.
Fell at 5:30 something.
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bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...
ohhhhh kkkk. That photo was taken from a video.
But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n2hv-95EOc
What else you got??
I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People" People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.
Oh, also, I dont talk about Presidents during Wartime, I messed up a couple times, and did screw up- but it IS sedition. This would have NEVER been acceptable to dis a President like this, BEFORE the terrible 1960's. I will REMAIN a decent person, and American.
Well if we're wrong than it's sedition, if we're right than he's the traitor. An investigation to find out which is which is not sedition.
Jews should never blindly trust their non-Jewish government no matter how friendly it seems. Haven't 3,000 years of galut and mayhem at the hands of our non-Jewish hosts taught us at least that much?!
Bush is doing almost nothing effective to fight the real war we need to be fighting against Islam so there isn't much of a "war effort" to betray here in the first place. You can't have a war on terror and have BBQs which the Saudi Royal family and tell the American people that the Saudis are our "friends" and "Islam is a religion of peace". Those things just don't go together and never will.
I wish their was a real war on terror unfortunately this one seems to be a fraud.
How do you know that he's not doing an effective job? Maybe our enemies are a little more clever than we are since they use a different type of warfare than what we are used to? We haven't been in a ground war in a looooong time either.
Now, am I saying that I trust Bush? Not at all...I'm simply saying that there is no way to prove without a reasonable doubt that his whole presidency and this whole 9/11 is a conspiracy...I would rather go with what is much much more obvious..that this was somethign planned by evil animal terrorists..and the reason why they got away with doing what they did was because we had been sitting out our hands thinking we are higher than Gd and that we were invincible...Worrying about conspiracies will not make us a better country...finding the culprits and destorying them and doing away with the social relativism we get wtih extreme political correctness will improve our country.
I maintain my point of view...9/11 was no conspiracy..if there is any responsibility the US govt had, it was IGNORANCE of the nature of the enemy...and till this day, they remain ignorant to a certain degree.
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yep and on fire they say... for hrs. since the collapse at least of the 2 towers... that's what 9am to 5:30 pm... over 8 hours... that's a full day at the office... and a horse-drawn wagon load of crap!!! nik.
no check tha... from 10 am or so onward... well 1 hour for lunch then... n.
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so bry... why did it take 7 hours or more for bldg. 7 a much smaller bldg (47 stories instead of over a hundred each) to collapse and the twin towers both fell in just over an hour of burning...? and don't give me rocket fuel... cause that evaporates in minutes and is gone... if bldg. 7 is so engulfed in fire as you claim... and the twin towers were barely on fire way up on top... how did it take hrs. to collapse... such utter rubbish and nonsense... nik. the truth will out... out...
Nik.. you didnt read my post. I specifically said that the rocketfuel was NOT a factor... but that 9/11 truthers like to fixate on Bldng 7 since they dont have to deal with the added confusion of it.
The reason why Bldng 7 took longer is pretty obvious. 1) Their WAS significant structural damage from the plane itself. Watch the videos... and see for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsooU1Tu8Rk
Unless you think it was a missle :)
You are right.. the rocket fuel did evapurate quite quickly... but it was able to cause HUGE damage with the first 15 seconds or so of the collision...
The difference between the B 1 and 2, and B 7 was that with B 1 and 2.. the damage happened extremely quickly... whereas Building 7... the damage was slow... mostly centering around the South Side structural weakening by the spreading fire.
Next Question.
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IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK ON THE WTC- WTC 7 WAS TAKEN DOWN BY NYC. What is the PROBLEMA HERE? I keep REPOSTING the SAME thing. Some of you people are too damned THICK. Not ME, YOU.
So you are admitting NYC demolished the building? That is NOT the official story. But if so, how did they get the explosives in there so fast to be able to do that.
I hear it takes a month of preparation for a good controlled demolition.
► Deputy Chief Peter Hayden: "By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.
Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?
Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there.
Firehouse: Chief Nigro said they made a collapse zone and wanted everybody away from number 7— did you have to get all of those people out?
Hayden: Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn’t want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn’t even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn’t know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o’clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then. At that point in time, it seemed like a somewhat smaller event, but under any normal circumstances, that’s a major event, a 47-story building collapsing. It seemed like a firecracker after the other ones came down, but I mean that’s a big building, and when it came down, it was quite an event. But having gone through the other two, it didn’t seem so bad. But that’s what we were concerned about. We had said to the guys, we lost as many as 300 guys. We didn’t want to lose any more people that day. And when those numbers start to set in among everybody…" -Firehouse Magazine (04/02)
YOU GOT ME...
So the NYC Fire Dept are part of the US GOVT? I KNOW what happened, I CANNOT be convinced OTHERWIZE.
So, fine, I am JUST as THICK as all of YOU.
You TRY living under the National Guard for a YEAR, MUCH like Martial Law- and they did it, FOR NO REASON but to scare a bunch of people living Upstate NY>? PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I KNOW what it is like to feel & live in terror. And it sure didnt come from the members of the National Guard who were NICE, even though they stopped us CONTINUALLY. I wonder what our brothers in Israel would think of this, since the WHOLE world thinks that palestinians are 'NICE' people, and the Jews in Israel are the "real" terrorists. "America and Israel" the real terrorists...... BS.
Please read my other posts, IF YOU REALLY BUY THIS CRAP.
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you said the film of total smoke is from 1:20 in the afternoon... the bldg. fell at what 4:30 or five...? nik.
No.. I said fast forward to 1 minute 20 seconds into that particular video.
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buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...
see? that's an opinion...
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Re: "I believe the Popular Mechanics explanation and think it is good at refuting the conspiracy theories."
I would be willing to accept the Popular Mechanics explanation, if the author of the article cited had not been Michael Chertov's nephew.
As in Michael Chertov, Director of Deparment of Homeland Security.
And...that term--"Homeland".....isn't that a Soviet / Third Reich title like "Russian Motherland" / "German Vaterland"?
Americans have NEVER in 200 years referred to our land as a "Homeland" in the same way authoritarian states have always done.
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yep and on fire they say... for hrs. since the collapse at least of the 2 towers... that's what 9am to 5:30 pm... over 8 hours... that's a full day at the office... and a horse-drawn wagon load of crap!!! nik.
no check tha... from 10 am or so onward... well 1 hour for lunch then... n.
Please explain what you are saying here.. and I will respond to it.
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Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure. Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason. hmmmm.. I wonder why?!?
now briann you see why i thought you said 1:20 pm... but look at the sky on the pic you posted... clearly very early on in the day... what took so long...? sept. 11 has shorter days... not summer anymore almost... it looks like early afternoon... nik.
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oh wow... doc... gee... thanks... don't know what i'd do w/out u... nik. in your debt... out...
ah, be nice...:)
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Muck,
First check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOI-LyVhSQo
Jtf to my knowledge has never shied away from fighting against both Islam AND the governments which appease it. Chaim has said repeatedly that he believes ALL governments today are evil. Only different here is we're talking about helping instead of appeasing, but is that really such a big difference? If you get up and say Islam is a religion is peace and the Saudis are our friends that's also supporting terrorism.
Further, as time goes by the "truther" view is gaining legitimacy. 80% of New Yorkers, for instance, question the official story. So it's no longer crazy to ask these questions.
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and 5:30 pm at collapse time is not as light as that pic depicts... i've seen the pic of the fall of bldg. 7 on loosechange and on other videos... it is not as light as that pic of yours... nik.
i was saying above... too many hours on fire... should have fallen much sooner...
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and the jet fuel could not have done such enormous damage immediately all the way down to the basement... forget the lobby's blown out windows etc. but all the way to the generators in sub-floors and machine shops gone... obliterated... and rapid transit cars and tracks twisted and chewed up... mangled...? ha!!! give me a flippin' break... THEY WERE 1000 FEET UP IN THE AIR WHEN THEY STRUCK THE BLDGS.!!! come on... use your heads... we were all sold a bill of goods and you know it... nik.
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Muck,
First check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOI-LyVhSQo
Jtf to my knowledge has never shied away from fighting against both Islam AND the governments which appease it. Chaim has said repeatedly that he believes ALL governments today are evil. Only different here is we're talking about helping instead of appeasing, but is that really such a big difference? If you get up and say Islam is a religion is peace and the Saudis are our friends that's also supporting terrorism.
Further, as time goes by the "truther" view is gaining legitimacy. 80% of New Yorkers, for instance, question the official story. So it's no longer crazy to ask these questions.
Well, I am in the MINORITY of the NYers then, I think MOST of you are just plain NUTS. <FACT. :P
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Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure. Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason. hmmmm.. I wonder why?!?
now briann you see why i thought you said 1:20 pm... but look at the sky on the pic you posted... clearly very early on in the day... what took so long...? sept. 11 has shorter days... not summer anymore almost... it looks like early afternoon... nik.
OMG you think that I posted a fake picture. Geesh.. OK fine.. do a google image search:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=south%20side%20wtc%207&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Some of the pics have dark skies.. some have light. Do you honestly believe that every photo showing building 7 from the south side with a bright sky is fake???
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and the jet fuel could not have done such enormous damage immediately all the way down to the basement... forget the lobby's blown out windows etc. but all the way to the generators in sub-floors and machine shops gone... obliterated... and rapid transit cars and tracks...? give me a flippin' break... IT WAS 1000 FEET UP IN THE AIR WHEN THEY STRUCK THE BLDGS.!!! come on... use your heads... you were sold a bill of goods and you know it... nik.
THE fuel ran down the elevator shafts and set most of the lower floors on fire.
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and the jet fuel could not have done such enormous damage immediately all the way down to the basement... forget the lobby's blown out windows etc. but all the way to the generators in sub-floors and machine shops gone... obliterated... and rapid transit cars and tracks twisted and chewed up... mangled...? ha!!! give me a flippin' break... THEY WERE 1000 FEET UP IN THE AIR WHEN THEY STRUCK THE BLDGS.!!! come on... use your heads... we were all sold a bill of goods and you know it... nik.
I already responded to this... but here it is again:
The floors where the collapse began were obviusly the weakest (We assume the steel strength there was about 25% of what it normally would be based upon the approximated temperature). Now once a floor collapses... it now has the weight (momentum would be more accurate) of not only this floor... but of all the floors above it. So basically you have the weight of 20 or so floors falling at the same time... and they fall on the floor directly below the initial collapse. The floor directly below the initial collapse would obviously be weak (since its right next to the fire that caused the floor above it to collapse). So this weakened floor will then collapse...and when this happens... the floor below it now has to deal with the weight of the initial collapse + 1. And the one below it + 2, and the one below it. + 3.. and so forth. It becomes so heavy... and with so much momentum that it becomes like an unstoppable avalanche.
This is gone over in GREAT detail in the popular science article.
Please respond.
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Re: "...you can see how the US government bungled Katrina, loses your mail and can't even catch employees going to strip clubs on government credit cards. One of the US warships in the Pacific caught fire because the whole crew was drunk and not paying attention and had to abandon ship when the fire engulfed the entire ship which never should have happened"
This sounds like a "reasonable" point of view.
BUT...
How is it that we pre-positioned U.S. Military from all branches of Service in place 6000 to 7000 miles from our shores, and invaded and occupied Afghanistan, then invaded and occupied Iraq, with a staggering "watch it live on TV" Operation Shock and Awe; all done with such amazing efficiency and coordination?
I begin to believe that those who insist "government can't do anything right...just look at Katrina" are the very same who attend rallies yelling "We're #1!"..."We're #1!" and then talk out of the other side of their mouth if anyone criticizes our government, denouncing them as unpatriotic and treasonous liberals!
Seems like some folks are coming and going at the same time!
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paulette... just bec. you lived thru it doesn't mean you knew what happened... everyone thought arabs and terrorism... of course they were in on it... but they are in the employ of the cia/nsa military-indust. complex that ike warned us about... al qaeda is a creation of the amer. ruling and military structure... pollard sits in jail for life bec. he found evid. to this end and weinberger yemach shmo v'zichro threw the key away on him to keep the info from getting out... but truth always finds a way... pollard found a bluebook with al qaeda names and payments and shipments and training stuff... and he found it current in '84 long after the russkies were beaten back and out of afg. it's sad and just too bad... but the truth is.. the elite slime ruling here wanted carte blanche in afg. and iraq and they found a way to take it at the expense of 3000 (probably a hell of a lot more too) amer. lives and all the more than 4000 lives in theatre over in the middle east in these subseq. sham wars for oil and world domination and for the eventual destr. of isr. G-d forbid... nik. out...
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i didn't say the fire or the pic is fake... i said if the fire is that huge that early on in the day... why did it take so long to collapse when the twin towers were raging less intently and higher up and fell 10 times faster and harder...? professor... huh...? nik.
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elevator shaft my a-ss... bull puckey... nik.
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and 5:30 pm at collapse time is not as light as that pic depicts... i've seen the pic of the fall of bldg. 7 on loosechange and on other videos... it is not as light as that pic of yours... nik.
i was saying above... too many hours on fire... should have fallen much sooner...
Oh.. I see what you are saying... The fire started on building 7 after the north tower (1 WTC) collapsed at 10:28 a.m
Here is a picture of the debris spreading that caused the fire to start.
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/911/DebrisBuilding7c.jpg)
The fire ravaged and was very strong on the south side and completely enveloped the south side by 2:00 (eastern time). I will include video with time stamp if you REALLY want it.
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popular science article... all lies... nik.
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i didn't say the fire or the pic is fake... i said if the fire is that huge that early on in the day... why did it take so long to collapse when the twin towers were raging less intently and higher up and fell 10 times faster and harder...? professor... huh...? nik.
I already answered this. But I will answer it paste it again here:
The reason why Bldng 7 took longer is pretty obvious. 1) There WAS significant structural damage from the plane itself. Watch the videos... and see for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsooU1Tu8Rk
Unless you think it was a missile Smiley
You are right.. the rocket fuel did evaporate quite quickly... but it was able to cause HUGE damage with the first 15 seconds or so of the collision...
The difference between the B 1 and 2, and B 7 was that with B 1 and 2.. the damage happened extremely quickly... whereas Building 7... the damage was slow... mostly centering around the South Side structural weakening by the spreading fire.
Just to add on to this:
WTC towers exaggerated the problems caused by the weakened steel. The towers had a lightweight “perimeter tube” design consisting of 244 exterior columns of 36 cm square steel box section on 100 cm centers, with 95% of the structure’s interior consisting of nothing but air. I can show you a diagram of this if youd like.
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elevator shaft my a-ss... bull puckey... nik.
Your supposed to be worried about christians turning on jews, nazi pope, ect and yet your pushing this crap. Rabbi Mirizachi said in history something happens all of a sudden and the goyim turn on the jews as if someone pressed the button.
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and if the whole south side was totally engulfed as shown ... then why didn't it sag in and collapse like we saw at okl. city...? it could have done this... it should have done this... around the time of that huge smoke pic of yours like we saw in the holland fire you put up... but no... it burns for three or more hours from that pic frame's time and then the whole thing goes down just like at a demolition... and the holland one was straight down bec. not just one side was burning but you could see the whole bldg. front to rear on those top floors were fully consumed with fire... black as night... and you haven't answered my question from before that the collapse in that holland film and the twin towers... the bottom floors reacted differently... and if anything the twin tower structure was much stronger and many more floors for support... so they should have collapsed if at all only when the top reached the bottom not before they reached down there... what a crock you believe... and here's the killer proof... the tops should have toppled over from their own twisted off and bent weight... when their strength was undermined... go back and look at the aftermath of the empire state bldg. fire the charred ruins look like what i am suggesting the world trade center should have looked like as well... and the empire state bldg. fire raged much longer... check it out... nik.
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this crap is all part of the greater crap of the nwo/owg and relig. barreling down on us at breakneck speed now... nik.
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Re: "Osama was on the FBI's most wanted for years and never taken truly seriously."
Not taken seriously?
That's a rather interesting assessment, considering that he was on the CIA payroll as one of their "top agents", and was repeatedly flown into the U.S., given false identity papers, passports, and visas, and was known to be seen shopping in Sherman Oaks and other areas of Los Angleles!
Another troubling factor, is that when Bush & his government publicly insisted that Osama had done it, and demanded that he and Mamzer Omar be immediately handed over, Osama was on the record as insisting that he had nothing to do with it.
Only about a week afterwards did the numerous "videos" begin appearing with the CIA translator claiming that he was taking full credit.
And yet, almost each and every new "Osama" video, shows an entirely different person, with features as different as broad nose, thin hooked nose, all grey beard, followed by dark short beard, etc.etc...
Even Osama's own son has been on the record saying that the man in the videos is not his father.
Which doesn't necessarily mean much, but still there's a great deal of contradictory "official" video releases.
And...if our enemies are so blatantly open that they can produce and release an unending series of "video hits" starring Osama, and show them at will across all major media networks, then how is it that our government hasn't (a) shut down the websites and production headquarters, and (b) always known the exact whereabouts of Osama and his handlers, and found them, and killed them?
And, why, at a televised White House question and answer session, when our President Bush was asked "Why haven't we captured or killed Osama Bin Laden yet?" Bush answered "I don't ever give Osama Bin Laden a second thought anymore."..."Listen!"..."This has NEVER been about Osama Bin Laden!", and then turned on his heels and dismissed the meeting.
THAT sounds like a "Freudian Slip", so giving him the benefit of the doubt, then why did Secretary of Defense, during a televised public question and answer session, remark that "...when THE MISSILE struck the Pentagon..."?
Freudian Slips, all?
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no... no... no... bry... you are wrong... look at the holland clip again... i see distinctly that only the top half collapses over the sides of and around the bottom half... i'll wager you anything after the smoke cleared the non-fire damaged and therefore not ravaged lower half was still standing... take a look again... i did not feel the lower half buckle and go under... try and find an aftermath shot of that fire and scene if you can... nik.
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You conspiracy theory folks are plain nuts. Stay the hell away from me...
You are worse than the Obamamaniacs out there in your hatred of America. I will shed some light on your craziness. I thought this was a board for people who shared views on Obama. Instead I find it filled with fruits and nuts worse than my worst nightmare.
If this site is not cleaned up I will expose this lunacy...
muman613
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hey pal... your the one who came on this thread... so you just stay the hell away from me and then we won't have any problems... savvy...? nik.
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popular science article... all lies... nik.
prove it
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this is absurd the american government wouldnt have allowed 9-11 to occur, i mean if we supposedly blamed it all on muslims, and the government did it, why havent we killed a billion muslims yet ? i mean it doesnt make sense if we only wanted to inflict self destruction in order to infiltrate the middle east, does it. the us would have instilled a hatred of muslims policy and the muslims would have been detained and put in pow camps right ?
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doc... just watch loosechange final cut... they address this fraudulent article with expert scientific researchers... nik.
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I asked my parents what they thought of 9/11 conspiracies..they out right said they were "stupid"..
No offense...
I liken the "open mindedness" of this topic much of the same way some people will be "open minded" to missionaires who try to convert Jews who know the bible much better than most others. (no offense to Christians on this forum).
And Lubab, you did a good job with this thread posting what you wanted to post to have intelligent debates..so i'm not turning on you even though I'm a little surprised that you would even consider that there might have been a conspiracy
And Briann..keep chugging with the evidence...
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doc... just watch loosechange final cut... they address this fraudulent article with expert scientific researchers... nik.
prove it that they are right and all those other really good science articles are wrong. How is it they are more right than the other scientists? Or is it that you choose those scientists because it fits your persona these conspiracies that you call "truth"? In other words, I sense bias on your part.
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no slayer... ask yourself this question instead... if 9/11 is so real... why are our borders as porous as they have ever been in the 230 odd years of this country's history...? any five yr. old would know to slam them shut in the aftermath of a real terrorist strike... and bush needed then to still get re-elected in '04... one more hit and he could have kissed it all goodbye... and they've found korans and prayer rugs in the desert... no the whole thing's a freakin' lie... they murdered their own people for political expediency and for psychological leverage over society... plain and simple... period... end of statement... nik. out...
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This is just sick the jihadis did it. I did not join the JTF to talk to wako conspiracy theorist.
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same question thrown right back in your face too doc... how do you know sc. amer. or popular science or national geographic is telling the truth...? who has more reason to lie...? the already considered lunatic fringe bringing on reputable experts who are then throwing their careers down the toilet...? or pop sci. or any other establishment journal that likes making corporate-sized profit margins and wants that to continue...? i'll take the lunatics any day over the "accepted" crap spewn forth by the gov't. controlled media any day of the week... even on shabat... nik. in disgust at this level of ignorance and naivete... out...
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and if the whole south side was totally engulfed as shown ... then why didn't it sag in and collapse like we saw at okl. city...?
Okl city was bombed. With bombing... if a steel beam is NOT destroyed by the initial blast... it will retain most if not all of its strength... and can support the metal beams that have collapsed... hence... causing sagging. Therefore... some of the steel beams will remain standing (unless it has HUGE wait from the momentum of the stories above it collapsing above it. This is why the OK bombing's damage is vertical... as if a cookie cutter cut into it... and not spherical... like the initial blast.
(http://www.tedi.net/images/bomb.jpg)
This is how nearly all buildings look when they are bombed... parts of it stay standing.. other parts are obliterated.
However. with burning.... nearly all the steel beams are weakend be the extreme heat... so that when the collapse finally happens... it will affect nearly the entire area (floor) since the entire floor has been weakened by the fire.
but no... it burns for three or more hours from that pic frame's time and then the whole thing goes down just like at a demolition...
Again... Ive already answered this. Once the initial collapse happened from the weakest point after several hours of burning... it affects all the other nearby steel beams since they have already been significantly weakened by the lheat. Again.. much of the steel would have been at roughly 30% of normal strength. And again.. Ive already answered the part about why after the initial collapse of the weakest floors.. why that extraordinary weight from the combined 20 or so floors above the collapse would have obliterated anything below it. You can read my previous post about this.
and the holland one was straight down bec. not just one side was burning but you could see the whole bldg. front to rear on those top floors were fully consumed with fire... black as night... and you haven't answered my question from before that the collapse in that holland film and the twin towers...
Which holland fire are you speaking of? I'll answer it when you elaborate here.
the bottom floors reacted differently... and if anything the twin tower structure was much stronger and many more floors for support... so they should have collapsed if at all only when the top reached the bottom not before they reached down there...
The bottom floors DID collapse in secession AFTER the top ones. However.. unlike towers 1 and 2 where the weakest point was near the top... with tower 7... the weakest point was on the lower half where the fire had been the strongest (on the south side) which is why number 7 collapses and leans to the south side at this very point of weaness.
There are all sorts of evidence of pancaking below this weakened point. the WTC columns laid out as if there were a path to the building. There are no concrete slabs attached to columns. This is yet another example of pancaking. With the floors pancaking straight down, the perimeter walls were free to lean over in tall sections before breaking off and coming down. You can see this from the image below.
(http://debunking911.com/Bankers.jpg)
the tops should have toppled over from their own twisted off and bent weight... when their strength was undermined... go back and look at the aftermath of the empire state bldg. fire the charred ruins look like what i am suggesting the world trade center should have looked like as well... and the empire state bldg. fire raged much longer... check it out... nik.
The empire state building is MUCH stronger than the WTC which Al Queda had mentioned in their intelligence... and why they didnt go after it:
in 1945 the empire State Building when rammed by a B-25 in 1945. The plane, loaded with gasoline, hit between the seventy-eighth and seventy-ninth floors. The resultant fire burned for twenty-four hours and gutted five stories of the building. But the accident did not cause any catastrophic collapse of the structure because the tower had been built around a grid of interior columns and everyone had been clad in concrete.
This is COMPLETELY different than the WTC.
The WTC towers had a lightweight “perimeter tube” design consisting of 244 exterior columns of 36 cm square steel box section on 100 cm centers, with 95% of the structure’s interior consisting of nothing but air.
This has been discussed in great detail.. and has caused government codes to change and not allow this type of perimeter tube skyscraper to be built.
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bry... i thought you brought this... so here it is... take a long hard look... n.
Delft University of Technology in Holland on fire and collapsing
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ff1_1210707903
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b.kibbutz brought it... bruciy take a new look... the bottom didn't fall out... nik.
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This is just sick the jihadis did it. I did not join the JTF to talk to wako conspiracy theorist.
I apologize for everyone that I am keeping this going by responding to Niks questions... but I have a reason for this. :)
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This is just sick the jihadis did it. I did not join the JTF to talk to wako conspiracy theorist.
I apologize for everyone that I am keeping this going by responding to Niks questions... but I have a reason for this. :)
Briann- I said this about the Empire State building back like 7 pages ago.
ARE the rest of you bein MACHO SH*THEADS to me? :P
;)
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This is just sick the jihadis did it. I did not join the JTF to talk to wako conspiracy theorist.
I apologize for everyone that I am keeping this going by responding to Niks questions... but I have a reason for this. :)
Briann- I said this about the Empire State building back like 7 pages ago.
ARE the rest of you bein MACHO SH*THEADS to me? :P
;)
Sorry Paulette. I'm always trying to live up to you. :)
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bry... i thought you brought this... so here it is... take a long hard look... n.
Delft University of Technology in Holland on fire and collapsing
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ff1_1210707903
Ohhh... why wasnt there pancaking at this fire?
I sorta already went over this... but just to elaborate. Pancaking only happens when the weight above the collapse is significant enough to cause enough momentum to collapse the floors below it.. that HAVENT been damaged by fire.
This is gone over in detail in 9/11 modern marvels and popular mechanics... But just to review... if the collapse happened on the 3rd to highest floor.... it wouldn't cause pancaking. WHY???
because there are only the weight of 3 combined floors collapsing on the floor below it.
HOWEVER... if the collapse happens on the 30th or 40th to highest floor... then you have a much higher weight (30 floors collapsing)
NOW... regardless of WHAT floor the collapse happens at... the floors above the collapse are going to cave in when you pull the rug from under them... but this does NOT guarantee pancaking. It only happens when total weight from the floors above the collapse is above a critical point.... and that depends upon how the building is constructed as well.
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again bry that building in holland is brick and/or cement... not steel... steel does not melt and does not fall... and who says the empire state bldg. was stronger...? true it has less glass... but it has more brick or cement and therefore should have collapsed as well bec. of it and bec. of the fact that it burned for much longer... and i don't want to hear about rocket ful being hotter than fire fire... reg. fire... the longer something burns the hotter it gets if it has enough kindling and/or fuel but rocket fuel burns up and dissipates in minutes and then what...? it's just a reg, fire like all other reg. fires... it is just preposterous to bel. it did all that damage... and what about the thievery from beneath the 2 towers... the gold bars and the truck left open and abandoned as one of the getaway vehicles was left behnd in plain site... why wouldn't it have been gone as well for nothing to see if it was a reg. rescue operation and not a hurried heist...? the whole thing is a crock of you know what and it stinks to high heaven... nik.
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bruciy take a new look... the bottom didn't fall out... nik.
Are you saying there wasnt pancaking below the point of collapse?
If you are... then... again.. thats why I posted that last picture. Building 7 had the majority of its damage on around the 10th floor of a 47 story building. Therefore the only way to see the pancaking was to examine the remains of the bottom 9 stories which just arent visible in the video.
Again.. the firefighters saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13 on the south side... and they commented that it would fall from there... and it did. It collapsed from that bulge... and then the area with the hole completely caved in above it... and the top 37 floors all caved in.. which is what you can see on the video... after they caved in... the bottom 10 floors collapsed from the pancaking. And when you examine the remains... you see clear signs of pancaking on the bottom 7 stories or so.
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This is just sick the jihadis did it. I did not join the JTF to talk to wako conspiracy theorist.
I apologize for everyone that I am keeping this going by responding to Niks questions... but I have a reason for this. :)
Briann- I said this about the Empire State building back like 7 pages ago.
ARE the rest of you bein MACHO SH*THEADS to me? :P
;)
Sorry Paulette. I'm always trying to live up to you. :)
Briann,
I am a BAD actress, but a great singer- You are a Professor? I HARDLY think I even come close. I am just good at punch lines.
OK are you CRAZIES STILL up to to devil behind EVERY doorknob? :o I will give the BEST story $50-. I have not seen ONE YET.
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nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it
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again bry that building in holland is brick and/or cement... not steel... steel does not melt and does not fall... and who says the empire state bldg. was stronger... true it has less glass... but it has more brick or cement and therefore should have collapsed as well bec. of it and bec. of the fact that it burned for much longer...
Its not just me who thinks that the empire state building is MUCH stronger. EVERY architect or engineer who is familar with it will attest to this.
Here is an excellent post on this subject from the Design and Architectural forums.
http://www.designcommunity.com/discussion/13977.html
Again.. you are right about the rocket fuel but I didnt even really talk about that.
. and what about the thievery from beneath the 2 towers... the gold bars and the truck left open and abandoned as one of the getaway vehicles was left behnd in plain site... why wouldn't it have been gone as well for nothing to see if it was a reg. rescue operation and not a hurried heist...
There is not a shred of proof.. ANYWHERE.. that the World Trade Center was stuffed with gold bars. This is why the 9/11 truthers didnt even bring this up in their documentary. Because it turned out to be a dead-end.
-
This is just sick the jihadis did it. I did not join the JTF to talk to wako conspiracy theorist.
I apologize for everyone that I am keeping this going by responding to Niks questions... but I have a reason for this. :)
Briann- I said this about the Empire State building back like 7 pages ago.
ARE the rest of you bein MACHO SH*THEADS to me? :P
;)
Sorry Paulette. I'm always trying to live up to you. :)
Briann,
I am a BAD actress, but a great singer- You are a Professor? I HARDLY think I even come close. I am just good at punch lines.
OK are you CRAZIES STILL up to to devil behind EVERY doorknob? :o I will give the BEST story $50-. I have not seen ONE YET.
I am from the 'evil' academic world... but I am not like 99% of the other liberal America Hating proffs at my school.
And yes... I kinda want this discussion to continue till conclusion. (It may take a while.. but oh well) :)
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again bry that building in holland is brick and/or cement... not steel... steel
Ooops.. .forgot to respond to this.
you are right... brick and cement are MUCH more likely to collapse than steel.
HOWEVER... that doesnt taken to account how weak steel can become when it is heated.
Brick and cement do NOT weaken when they are exposed to high temperatures. Steel DOES. This doesnt mean that steel isnt STRONGER... but it DOES mean that if and when there is a collapse in a steal building with a fire... the areas nearby the part collapsing will be much weaker than normal and would be much more likely to become part of a domino effect.
BTW... from everything I was reading.. I beleive that structure in Holland did have steel reinforcements.
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nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it
Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.
There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.
This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.
Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.
What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.
Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.
Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.
Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
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Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.
What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.
I actually NEVER respond to conspiracy theorists... I typically just like to make fun of them.
However.. Ive made an exception in this case... more for lubab than for Nik.
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and of course naturally since you're all talking with a certifiable nut-case... that makes you extremely intelligent and perfectly sane... correct...? as gore vidal that stinker once said... (truth wherever it comes from must be accepted)... "naturally the u.s. is the only nation in the history of the world that has never ever had a conspiracy within its governmental ranks... and the lone-nut theory each and every time is exactly what transpired... of course..." (which in the case of 9/11 is the first multiple lone nut case in u.s.history... of arab-islamo-fascist nuts... 19 of them)... lincoln of course had 11 nuts hung for killing him... but booth goes down as a lone nut... and then much later on... 100 yrs. later by jfk, rfk and mlk... there weren't any 11 collaborators in any of those slayings... give me a break... listen i've got beachfront property in arizona i'd like to sell you guys... real cheap... nik. and there's a method to my madness of signing out this way... bec. this way i know later on that my posts were not tampered with... or doctored in any fashion... as i almost never say a word after... OUT!!!
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nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it
Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.
There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.
This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.
Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.
What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.
Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.
Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.
Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
Well, Muck-the person WINNING this debate IS Briann. I am not into bans- it makes a forum LOUSY. I have actually cut back all paltalk time, b/c it is MUCH more exciting here- even David- who HATES how forums operate, cant take his eyes off this forum as well. I dont know where the $50- is going yet, its still a toss up. Clearly the BEST winner will be the best person with the best story fit for the hollywood of today, that LIVES to PRETEND that 9-11 was a HOAX.
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and of course naturally since you're all talking with a certifiable nut-case... that makes you extremely intelligent and perfectly sane... correct...? as gore vidal that stinker once said... (truth wherever it comes from must be accepted)... "naturally the u.s. is the only nation in the history of the world that has never ever had a conspiracy within its governmental ranks... and the lone-nut theory each and every time is exactly what transpired... of course..." (which in the case of 9/11 is the first multiple lone nut case in u.s.history... of arab-islamo-fascist nuts... 19 of them)... lincoln of course had 11 nuts hung for killing him... but booth goes down as a lone nut... and then much later on... 100 yrs. later by jfk, rfk and mlk... there weren't any 11 collaborators in any of those slayings... give me a break... listen i've got beachfront property in arizona i'd like to sell you guys... real cheap... nik. and there's a method to my madness of signing out this way... bec. this way i know later on that my posts were not tampered with... or doctored in any fashion... as i almost never say a word after... OUT!!!
Well Nik. I want you to know that I never had any intentions of trying to convince you of anything. I think I would have better luck teaching a cat how to swim.
However... If you ever are interested to see things a bit differently, from my perspective, go to a Muslim website or StørmFrønt... and try to convince the people that the Hollocaust ISNT a conspiracy. You will find that NO MATTER what you say to them... they will NEVER beleive you.
I actually used to do this a lot when I was younger. They would always bring up the same old garbage, and I would argue and argue..... and bring up fact after fact... and they would always say that the evidence I was giving was forged or faked or from a zionist source... or they just wouldnt respond.. and would ignore my posts. That's why I dont argue anymore with Conspiracy Theorists... because I know that they will NEVER change their mind.
But with Lubab... I could sence that there was a LITTLE bit of doubt. (Not much... but a little). So thats why I broke from my old habbits and tried to answer all his questions... to see if I was wrong about my presumptions. I have no idea if it worked... but we'll see.
Rest assured.. from here on out... I will be back to my same old self.. of ridiculing all conspiracies. And that of course includes vatican conspiracies, moon landing conspiracies, JFK conspiracies, and whatever you can throw at me... SOOO.. .Keep em coming!!!!
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nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it
Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.
There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.
This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.
Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.
What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.
Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.
Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.
Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
Well, Muck-the person WINNING this debate IS Briann. I am not into bans- it makes a forum LOUSY. I have actually cut back all paltalk time, b/c it is MUCH more exciting here- even David- who HATES how forums operate, cant take his eyes off this forum as well. I dont know where the $50- is going yet, its still a toss up. Clearly the BEST winner will be the best person with the best story fit for the hollywood of today, that LIVES to PRETEND that 9-11 was a HOAX.
wOO HOOO!!!! You like me!!!! YOU REALLY LIKE ME!!! :)
I would like to thank my agent and my hairstylist.
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I think this is a fantastic debate.
I would love to see similar debates on the other 7 questions, but I don't know if I'll get my wish.
I'd be very curious to hear Brian's thoughts on why Bush didn't run for cover when he learned of the attacks and why they were doing drills to prevent the exact same attack on the same morning of the drills (odd or a gazillion to one). But by all means let's let this debate run its course before we go on to other matters.
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[/quote]
There is not a shred of proof.. ANYWHERE.. that the World Trade Center was stuffed with gold bars. This is why the 9/11 truthers didnt even bring this up in their documentary. Because it turned out to be a dead-end.
[/quote]
Not entirely true.
PBS did report on the gold underneath the building and its disappearance. This is from their "mainstream" website:
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_02.html
Also, the issue is not mentioned in loose change but it is brought up in Alex Jones' 9-11 truth movies.
Also, some kids confronted Guilani about the issue once and he got pretty pissed and wouldn't say anything about it...why not just calmly explain that it's a complete lie.
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Even if we are to accept that fire could have caused both these buildings to collapse. Then we are still left with two alternatives. Explosives were responsible. Or demolition was responsible and we'd then need to examine which of these possibilities are more LIKELY. Is it LIKELY that fire caused this kind of collapse or would it be at least a somewhat unusual occurance. If it would be an unusual occurace for fire to do this but very likely for a demolition to cause this result than logic would compel us to accept the demolition theory as being a more likely cause.
Muck said earlier the detonation theory was very unlikely because when would they set it up?
However, there was just such an opportunity to set it up a few weeks before 9-11. Security blocked everyone out and wouldn't let anyone in the building for hours and hours for "security checks"...and they could well have done it then.
Have you guys discussed the tufts of smoke which appear to be shooting out of the building at points well below the alleged pancaking?
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and of course naturally since you're all talking with a certifiable nut-case... that makes you extremely intelligent and perfectly sane... correct...? as gore vidal that stinker once said... (truth wherever it comes from must be accepted)... "naturally the u.s. is the only nation in the history of the world that has never ever had a conspiracy within its governmental ranks... and the lone-nut theory each and every time is exactly what transpired... of course..." (which in the case of 9/11 is the first multiple lone nut case in u.s.history... of arab-islamo-fascist nuts... 19 of them)... lincoln of course had 11 nuts hung for killing him... but booth goes down as a lone nut... and then much later on... 100 yrs. later by jfk, rfk and mlk... there weren't any 11 collaborators in any of those slayings... give me a break... listen i've got beachfront property in arizona i'd like to sell you guys... real cheap... nik. and there's a method to my madness of signing out this way... bec. this way i know later on that my posts were not tampered with... or doctored in any fashion... as i almost never say a word after... OUT!!!
Well Nik. I want you to know that I never had any intentions of trying to convince you of anything. I think I would have better luck teaching a cat how to swim.
However... If you ever are interested to see things a bit differently, from my perspective, go to a Muslim website or StørmFrønt... and try to convince the people that the Hollocaust ISNT a conspiracy. You will find that NO MATTER what you say to them... they will NEVER beleive you.
I actually used to do this a lot when I was younger. They would always bring up the same old garbage, and I would argue and argue..... and bring up fact after fact... and they would always say that the evidence I was giving was forged or faked or from a zionist source... or they just wouldnt respond.. and would ignore my posts. That's why I dont argue anymore with Conspiracy Theorists... because I know that they will NEVER change their mind.
But with Lubab... I could sence that there was a LITTLE bit of doubt. (Not much... but a little). So thats why I broke from my old habbits and tried to answer all his questions... to see if I was wrong about my presumptions. I have no idea if it worked... but we'll see.
Rest assured.. from here on out... I will be back to my same old self.. of ridiculing all conspiracies. And that of course includes vatican conspiracies, moon landing conspiracies, JFK conspiracies, and whatever you can throw at me... SOOO.. .Keep em coming!!!!
What about the Rabin conspiracy. Most Israelis now believe that one. Do you mock that conspiracy as well?
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I think this is a fantastic debate.
I would love to see similar debates on the other 7 questions, but I don't know if I'll get my wish.
I'd be very curious to hear Brian's thoughts on why Bush didn't run for cover when he learned of the attacks and why they were doing drills to prevent the exact same attack on the same morning of the drills (odd or a gazillion to one). But by all means let's let this debate run its course before we go on to other matters.
Answers to the first ... BUSH IS A MORON!!!!! HAHAHAHAH
I too was perplexed by how Bush reacted. He just stood there and stared into empty space. That just proves he's clueless. Obviously if it were pre-planned... he woulda had some pre-planned reaction.
Here is a great comic on Bush and 9/11 conspiracies.
(http://debunking911.com/conspiracy.jpg)
And here is another great (and funny) commentary:
http://debunking911.com/meeting.htm
Also... if it were a conspiracy... here is a list of all the people and organizations that would need to have been in on it:
http://debunking911.com/massivect.htm
For the second part. That was just a rumor... a nasty one.. but still a rumor.
From what I could find, that rumor came from the following information:
on September 12, Pier 92, there was going to have a drill for a biochemical attack.
The day before (9/11) there were hundreds of people from out of town, from FEMA, from the Federal Government, from the State, from the State Emergency Management Office, and they were getting ready for this drill.
Of course... after 9/11... they obviously called off the frill for 9/12
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I think this is a fantastic debate.
I would love to see similar debates on the other 7 questions, but I don't know if I'll get my wish.
I'd be very curious to hear Brian's thoughts on why Bush didn't run for cover when he learned of the attacks and why they were doing drills to prevent the exact same attack on the same morning of the drills (odd or a gazillion to one). But by all means let's let this debate run its course before we go on to other matters.
Answers to the first ... BUSH IS A MORON!!!!! HAHAHAHAH
I too was perplexed by how Bush reacted. He just stood there and stared into empty space. That just proves he's clueless. Obviously if it were pre-planned... he woulda had some pre-planned reaction.
Here is a great comic on Bush and 9/11 conspiracies.
(http://debunking911.com/conspiracy.jpg)
And here is another great (and funny) commentary:
http://debunking911.com/meeting.htm
Also... if it were a conspiracy... here is a list of all the people and organizations that would need to have been in on it:
http://debunking911.com/massivect.htm
For the second part. That was just a rumor... a nasty one.. but still a rumor.
From what I could find, that rumor came from the following information:
on September 12, Pier 92, there was going to have a drill for a biochemical attack.
The day before (9/11) there were hundreds of people from out of town, from FEMA, from the Federal Government, from the State, from the State Emergency Management Office, and they were getting ready for this drill.
Of course... after 9/11... they obviously called off the frill for 9/12
This just proves one of my points that those who stick to the official story are forced to assume TREMENDOUS incompetence on the part of our government. And a whole slew of coincidences. At some point you have to say...gimmie a break...nobody is that stupid...and that many coincidences don't all happen on the same day. You can believe it...but if you do then YOU should be the one accused of believing in far-fetched theories not me.
I heard an interview between him and Rush Limbaugh where he was sharp as a tack...I just don't believe he's all that dumb as he's made out to be. Even if he really was that dumb, he should be prosecuted for criminal negligence. He had a fiduciary duty as Commander in Cheif to get off his butt and try to prevent further attacks and try to do something to save the folks screaming for their lives at the top of those towers.
The 9/11 drill that took place wasn't just a rumor it was reported on the cover of USA today. Mainstream story.
That list you post is interesting but I would point out that, for instance, you don't need NORAD to be in on it...you just need Cheney to be in on it and he tells NORAD what and what not to do. It only takes a very small group of people to pull this off...as long as that small group has decision making power over all their inferiors who would be necessary to pull it off. The inferiors just take orders, they don't need to know the whole story.
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nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it
Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.
There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.
This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.
Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.
What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.
Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.
Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.
Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
Well, Muck-the person WINNING this debate IS Briann. I am not into bans- it makes a forum LOUSY. I have actually cut back all paltalk time, b/c it is MUCH more exciting here- even David- who HATES how forums operate, cant take his eyes off this forum as well. I dont know where the $50- is going yet, its still a toss up. Clearly the BEST winner will be the best person with the best story fit for the hollywood of today, that LIVES to PRETEND that 9-11 was a HOAX.
wOO HOOO!!!! You like me!!!! YOU REALLY LIKE ME!!! :)
I would like to thank my agent and my hairstylist.
I thought your name was Briann, not Sally.
Sure I like you, I REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY like you. ;)
I still have the 50 BUX.
Nik is in 3rd. Thats $10- for him, Nik you have to work harder.
-
nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it
Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.
There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.
This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.
Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.
What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.
Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.
Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.
Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
Well, Muck-the person WINNING this debate IS Briann. I am not into bans- it makes a forum LOUSY. I have actually cut back all paltalk time, b/c it is MUCH more exciting here- even David- who HATES how forums operate, cant take his eyes off this forum as well. I dont know where the $50- is going yet, its still a toss up. Clearly the BEST winner will be the best person with the best story fit for the hollywood of today, that LIVES to PRETEND that 9-11 was a HOAX.
wOO HOOO!!!! You like me!!!! YOU REALLY LIKE ME!!! :)
I would like to thank my agent and my hairstylist.
I thought your name was Briann, not Sally.
Sure I like you, I REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY like you. ;)
I still have the 50 BUX.
Nik is in 3rd. Thats $10- for him, Nik you have to work harder.
Sally(http://planetsmilies.net/person-smiley-1190.gif) (http://planetsmilies.net)
-
Re: that list of all the people who are in on it. A lot of those people are on the list just for not calling for an investigation.
First of all most of the 9-11 families do call for a new and independent investigation.
Several firefighters and first responders also have called for an investigation. They are particularly pissed off because the government told them the air is okay to breathe and now most of them are dying as a result of the fact that they weren't wearing masks.
But always remember how much mockery one must face when you express doubt about this kind of stuff...just look at Rosie Odonnel (not that I like her at all)...but just see what happens to people's careers when they questions this stuff.
There was a 9-11 truth protest during the RNC convention. The newly militirized cops hauled a bunch of them into an asbestos filled wearehouse for no reason. Maybe you read about this. So people who subscribe to this theory have a much more difficult life than the rest of us so it makes a lot of sense to me that most people would just shut up and do what their superiors tell them to do. They don't need to be "in on it"...they just need to be willfullly ignorant which is how most people are today. They just need to NOT ask questions, NOT object to what they're being told to do, NOT challenge the status quo and how many people really do that these days?
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nik, i know for a fact that the terrorist attack was a terrorist attack, its possible, i mean why do u rely so much on the government being evil, think about it this way people make mistakes (in our case a pretty fricken huge one) i mean the odds are greater that it was a coincedence then a planned attack , if it was a planned attack how ia it poassible for so much explosives to be smuggled in without anyone realizing it, do u realoize how much explosives would be needed to blow up a building like that, plus how can bush hide his tracks so perfectly. think about it for a second. do this :-X and please think about it
Just in case you haven't realized it yet, you're attempting to deal rationally with an irrational person.
There's a reason Chaim was forced to suggest that nikmatdam leave this forum, and that reason is very apparent in this thread.
This arrogant ignoramus makes blanket statements like 'fire could never cause a building to collapse unless it's made of wood'.
Some of the posters here have patiently tried to deal with this ignoramus thinking that it's possible to persuade him through a logical presentation of evidence.
What a waste of time and an embarrassment to this great forum.
Now some of you might say or think "gee Muck, you're being really hard on nik, and calling him an ignoramus is uncalled for". Well I'm sorry, but there's just so much lunacy and stupidity one can be exposed to without brandishing a harsh response.
Paulette, you offered 50 dollars to the 'crazy' with the best story. Just mail the check to nik now.
Oh, and by the way nik, there's really no need to end everyone of your semi-literate, devoid of punctuation, rambling diatribes with the words 'nik out'. We can easily figure out who the post is from by looking at the name and avatar on your post and are capable of figuring out that you're done when you stop typing and spewing your lunacy.
Well, Muck-the person WINNING this debate IS Briann. I am not into bans- it makes a forum LOUSY. I have actually cut back all paltalk time, b/c it is MUCH more exciting here- even David- who HATES how forums operate, cant take his eyes off this forum as well. I dont know where the $50- is going yet, its still a toss up. Clearly the BEST winner will be the best person with the best story fit for the hollywood of today, that LIVES to PRETEND that 9-11 was a HOAX.
wOO HOOO!!!! You like me!!!! YOU REALLY LIKE ME!!! :)
I would like to thank my agent and my hairstylist.
I thought your name was Briann, not Sally.
Sure I like you, I REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY like you. ;)
I still have the 50 BUX.
Nik is in 3rd. Thats $10- for him, Nik you have to work harder.
Guys let's please try to keep this a serious thread and stay on topic and respect other people's opinions. I started this thread and I kindly request no distractions to the actual discussion of the facts and the evidence, the logic etc.
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OK Lubab- the serious part is that WE GOT ATTACKED. The RIDICULOUS part is that people think Bush did IT TO US.
(Even great debaters stop for a laugh)
NOBODY will get ME to believe in what some of you re trying to trump up- not in a million years.
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There is not a shred of proof.. ANYWHERE.. that the World Trade Center was stuffed with gold bars. This is why the 9/11 truthers didnt even bring this up in their documentary. Because it turned out to be a dead-end.
[/quote]
Not entirely true.
PBS did report on the gold underneath the building and its disappearance. This is from their "mainstream" website:
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_02.html
Also, the issue is not mentioned in loose change but it is brought up in Alex Jones' 9-11 truth movies.
Also, some kids confronted Guilani about the issue once and he got pretty pissed and wouldn't say anything about it...why not just calmly explain that it's a complete lie.
[/quote]
Again.. very few 9/11 truthers bring this up anymore since it was baseless to begin with. BTW Loose Change DID bring this up. However.. The creator kept changing his story... and finally dropped it altogether when it was found to be baseless.
There was an unidentified rumors that $160 billion in gold bullion from the federal reserve was stored under the World Trade Center. (Again NO PROOF of this)
It was later revealed that The Federal Reserve Bank is NOT in the basement of the World Trade Center, but was approximately 2 blocks away and was not damaged in the attacks. (If they wanted $ they would have attacked this building)
3 year later a caller to the Bill Bochiers radio program on WLW, Cincinnati (11-06-04) told of a report from HER FRIEND who worked at the WTC. The friend said that on the morning of 9-11 she was on her way to her job at the World Trade Center, along the route she normally took. As she turned a corner at the base of the Center, she saw two large flat bed trucks parked at one of the entrances. One of the trucks had already been loaded and had its contents covered by a large tarp. The second truck was in the process of having its bed loaded with stacks of solid gold bars.
Again.. NO collaberation... AND the women was anonymous... Theres just no proof of any of this.
When they finally did all the recovering of the gold and silver that was found in the vaults of the COMEX (commodity exhcange) trading vaults, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani announced that roughly $230 million worth of gold and silver bars that had been found.
However.. Timesonline gave an estimation saying that there may have been as much as $950 million of total gold in the COMEX vaults.
This led to speculation that 720 million of gold was stolen... again no proof of anything... and WHY would you go after THIS gold and silver... when 200 TIMES as much money is in the building next store?
And Again.. this was completely different than what the Consp Theorists were talking about orignially... they were saying that there was a secret Federal Reserve of $170 billion that was stolen.
-
I thought your name was Briann, not Sally.
Sure I like you, I REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY like you. ;)
I still have the 50 BUX.
Nik is in 3rd. Thats $10- for him, Nik you have to work harder.
Darnn I thought I got something for being the best debater. :(
-
There is not a shred of proof.. ANYWHERE.. that the World Trade Center was stuffed with gold bars. This is why the 9/11 truthers didnt even bring this up in their documentary. Because it turned out to be a dead-end.
Not entirely true.
PBS did report on the gold underneath the building and its disappearance. This is from their "mainstream" website:
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_property_02.html
Also, the issue is not mentioned in loose change but it is brought up in Alex Jones' 9-11 truth movies.
Also, some kids confronted Guilani about the issue once and he got pretty pissed and wouldn't say anything about it...why not just calmly explain that it's a complete lie.
[/quote]
Again.. very few 9/11 truthers bring this up anymore since it was baseless to begin with. BTW Loose Change DID bring this up. However.. The creator kept changing his story... and finally dropped it altogether when it was found to be baseless.
There was an unidentified rumors that $160 billion in gold bullion from the federal reserve was stored under the World Trade Center. (Again NO PROOF of this)
It was later revealed that The Federal Reserve Bank is NOT in the basement of the World Trade Center, but was approximately 2 blocks away and was not damaged in the attacks. (If they wanted $ they would have attacked this building)
3 year later a caller to the Bill Bochiers radio program on WLW, Cincinnati (11-06-04) told of a report from HER FRIEND who worked at the WTC. The friend said that on the morning of 9-11 she was on her way to her job at the World Trade Center, along the route she normally took. As she turned a corner at the base of the Center, she saw two large flat bed trucks parked at one of the entrances. One of the trucks had already been loaded and had its contents covered by a large tarp. The second truck was in the process of having its bed loaded with stacks of solid gold bars.
Again.. NO collaberation... AND the women was anonymous... Theres just no proof of any of this.
When they finally did all the recovering of the gold and silver that was found in the vaults of the COMEX (commodity exhcange) trading vaults, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani announced that roughly $230 million worth of gold and silver bars that had been found.
However.. Timesonline gave an estimation saying that there may have been as much as $950 million of total gold in the COMEX vaults.
This led to speculation that 720 million of gold was stolen... again no proof of anything... and WHY would you go after THIS gold and silver... when 200 TIMES as much money is in the building next store?
And Again.. this was completely different than what the Consp Theorists were talking about orignially... they were saying that there was a secret Federal Reserve of $170 billion that was stolen.
[/quote]
You are obviously well informed. I like that. What about the story about Guiliani getting rid of the rubble so fast? Is there anything to that story?
-
OK Lubab- the serious part is that WE GOT ATTACKED. The RIDICULOUS part is that people think Bush did IT TO US.
(Even great debaters stop for a laugh)
NOBODY will get ME to believe in what some of you re trying to trump up- not in a million years.
That's because you don't really know George W. Bush. You THINK you know who he is but you really don't. His grandaddy (prescott bush) was a NAZI. He was very instrumental in helping Hitler get elected. If you research the ties between Nazism and the Bush's you'll find they are pretty darn strong.
And both W. and Pappy Bush go every year to the Bohemian Grove to participate in mock (or possibly real) child sacrific to Lucifer and Moloch (the false idol we are specifically told not to worship in the Bible in the form of child sacrifices). These sickos have been caught on tape doing this ritual and it is real and yes Bush attends every year.
Homosexuality is also rampant at these Bohemian Grove sicko celebrations. They are basically a party for some of our most powerful world leaders to celebrate everything the G-d of Israel hates.
I'm sure you're also aware he's a long time member of the devil worshiping Skull and Bones.
That's the real George W. Bush. No man of any principle would be caught anywhere near these Satan worshiping cults.
These guys are not conservatives, and they're not Christians. They're evil Paullette and if they can celebrate the death (real or mock) of an innocent child then don't think for too long that they value the lives of you and me either.
Power. That's all most politicians care about. They are elitists and Chaim has opened our eyes to this for years.
A year before 9-11 Cheney said in a report called "Rebuilding America's Defenses" that a "Pearl Harbor type of event" would be helpful for us to invade Iraq and take out Saddam. So it's not so far fetched. They needed an event like this because they wanted in to Iraq and Saddam out. Chaim has explained to us clearly how the Iraq War has been a disaster as far as an effective fight in the war on terror. They did it for their own selfish reasons, not because they care about us.
Our government has done many false flag operations all over the world to replace dictators we don't like in other countries. I don't find it so hard to believe they could've done it here too.
I know that nobody WANTS to believe anyone could be so evil...but we can't bury our heads in the sand...we need to do our own investigation and that's what I'm trying to do here. And I do really appreciate Brian sharing his knowledge to help clarify what really happened.
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Ok Lubab... your going way off-topic now. Im dont want to hear about how tough it is for conspiratory beleivers.
.. a man name David Irving is spending 3 years in a jail for publicly denying the existance of a hollocaust in the Austria. Yes... it is VERY tough for him.. and yes... it may be unfair that he is in jail... BUT... that doesnt make his conspiracies any more believable.
And YES... Rosie O'donnel has been mocked and made fun of... but that doesnt change the fact that her facts are all WRONG... and extremely easy to dissprove.
I have very politely answered every question I have been asked of the conspiracy claims. I have not skipped a SINGLE question you or Nik asked me personally. So now that I have done this.. you have to answer questions from me.
WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?
What do you think of people who seek to dissprove the Hollocaust? What motivates them?
How are you different from them??
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You are obviously well informed. I like that. What about the story about Guiliani getting rid of the rubble so fast? Is there anything to that story?
Thanks :), the internet helped a lot as well.
I have no idea why he got rid of the rubble so fast... :) I haven't heard from anyone that he was obstructing justice in any way or trying to cover up anything. I just dont know.
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and with this i rest my case for the moment... you will need time to read this piece... that is if any of you have the guts to search for the truth and are not already brain-dead... and bry... the holocaust was a conspiracy... the slime nazi gov'ts. the world over were all in it... includ. the bloody brits. and the money-hungry amer. and even the pre-gov't groveling, jewish agency types over in "palest-ine..." they were all in on the kill and the cover-up... and it WAS all a hoax... we have all been lied to all of these many years after... because they didn't kill 6 million jews...
they told weizmann he would have to let it go down and that maybe 2 mil. would perish and he then went and got ben gurion to sign off on it... and then he went to the u.s. and got ss weiss and the amer. sick jewish leadership infrastructure to back this play to do all of eastern-european torah jewry... ah... but then they double-crossed all of these diseased and demented jews who pre-agreed in the '30's to the slaughter of the 2mil. of their own brothers and sisters... fathers and mothers... sons and daughters... and grandparents... and the dirty, filthy slime of this world... esav and yishmael aligned together with the afore mentioned satanic jews whose main roles were to squelch all protests, boycotts and all rescue efforts from within the jewish communities in amer., in europe (primarily among the brave jews within gr. britain) and of course in palest-ine... getting these jews there to blockade any and all shipments of escaping jewish souls from the hell hole that is the european cont. and round them all up and send them all back as so much unwanted and undesired cargo... and so the deed was done... the war prolonged as much as possible to provide cover for the genocide to go on and on without surcease... until all 7mil.jews lay dead... yes... that's right... 7... 7 million jewish neshamot perished and were murdered... not just 6...
for they on purpose decided the world could not handle the knowledge of an extra mil. of babies... and so only 1 1/2 mil. children were accounted as slaughtered... when actually it was 2 1/2 mil.... for apparently the goyim think 6 total is not so bad... and 7 would be too horrific... that 1 1/2 jewish kids is just fine but 2 1/2 might be pushing it a mite and so better not count the babies in... esp. since they were so tiny... i mean... whose to ever know...? right...? they were born in the camps or shot immediately upon raiding the jewish cities, towns and villages... and no pesky reporters were ever around back then to witness it all... so lie... "hell... we already killed them... so lying about they ever existed in the first place ain't so hard..."
but the truth will always out... Hashem makes certain of that... and He will out the truth about 9/11 as He already has about the holocaust and jfk and viet nam and iran-contra... and so many others... it may take another 30 or 40 years... who knows...? but the truth will out... pity not too many of us will be around to know that i was right... no biggie though... 'cause i don't need your corroboration or concurrence... i've got the evidence and i've found the truth... by the grace of G-d and by His help... and so i live in the light while you all live in the dark on so many things... too bad... such a shame... but maybe one day soon your eyes will be open... esp. about what's still out there for us unfortunately... due to the fact that absolutely nothing has changed in this sick world of ours since the shoah... things have only gotten about a million times worse... and what's coming our way soon... ww3... will make appear as mere child's play of what happened in ww's 1&2 combined... G-d forbid... lo alenu... please spare us and bring moshiach first... but if not hopefully alot of you at least will wake up before it becomes too late... it already is so very late and there isn't a magic bullet i can tell you of to stop this carnage and death in its tracks and prevent it from coming... but i'll keep trying... be back tom... meanwhile here's your homework assignment on conspiracy theories... class dismissed... good night... nik. out...
www.hirhome.com
What is conspiracy theory?
Is this website doing it?
Historical and Investigative Research - 4 October 2005
by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/conspiracy.htm
__________________________________________________________
I have been asked more than once whether this website is doing ‘conspiracy theory.’ But this is something that each reader must decide on his or her own. Doing so may not be easy, because the expression ‘conspiracy theory’ contains a certain complexity of meaning that people seldom stop to analyze. So what I will do here is briefly explain what ‘conspiracy theory’ means, in all its complexity. Once I do that, you can decide for yourself whether the content of this website bears a sufficient resemblance to what this familiar expression denotes.
But first, a quick word about meaning.
How does meaning work?
_______________________
The meaning of a word or term can be inferred only from its usage. In other words, whichever way it is that most people use a certain word, that is what it means. Certain institutions have great power when it comes to influencing common word-usage; therefore, these institutions have great power over the meanings of words. For example, The New York Times has circulation figures that seem fantastic: its home delivery fluctuates between 600,000 and more than a million.[1] That’s just home delivery. In addition, The New York Times is bought on the newsstand by lots of people, and NYT content is reproduced in many other news venues. Thus, if The New York Times uses the term ‘conspiracy theory’ a certain way, then a lot of people will be directly influenced to use the term in precisely the same manner, and their usages will influence others (especially if New York Times readers are considered cultural leaders, which I think you will agree that they are).
Dictionary companies produce their definitions by looking systematically at examples of mainstream published writing; the logic is that mainstream published writing is being read by many people, and therefore its uses of words cannot very well be idiosyncratic. So The New York Times has a huge effect on what dictionaries eventually decide is the definition of a term, because The New York Times is the most prestigious English-language mainstream print source. Through this channel, The New York Times again has a sizeable impact on common usage, because when ordinary people are in doubt about a word, they consult dictionaries.
The meanings of words have an effect on your mind, naturally, because most of your thinking is conducted with words. George Orwell once tried to explain this, but very few people really got it. The point is that if
The New York Times has a huge effect on the meanings of English words, and you are an English speaker, then The New York Times is having a huge effect on your mind, whether or not you read the New York Times.
Now, let us move to the meaning of ‘conspiracy theory.’
What is the meaning of 'conspiracy theory'?
______________________________________
One thing about dictionary definitions is that they often leave much important information out. For example, if you go to Dictionary.com, it will tell you that ‘conspiracy theory’ means
“A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.”
Okay as far as it goes, but it doesn’t tell you whether such theories are held to carry a certain connotation, generating a particular attitude towards them. We can certainly glean this missing information, however, by looking at how ‘conspiracy theory’ is used in the pages of The New York Times.
I asked the Lexis-Nexis database, on 3 October 2005, to give me any and all appearances of the terms ‘conspiracy theory’ or ‘conspiracy theories’ in The New York Times during the preceding five years (this is a test that anybody with access to this database can repeat). The output is a list of NYT newspaper articles, ordered in chronological order and starting with the last. The list is exceedingly long -- too much data. What to do? I decided to start with the first article in the list, and move backward in time, one by one -- no cherry-picking. I will stop when my point has been made (this will happen quickly).
In this first article, the relevant passage explains that Eamonn Kelly, author of a book called Powerful Times, predicts that,
“‘Our world will grow more transparent. Our ability to collect, integrate, interpret and distribute data will increase exponentially.’ But all of that data [being available] means that people will be able to use bits and pieces to build whatever hypotheses they like. As a result, he says, a ‘growing abundance of conspiracy theories and falsehoods will travel the world instantaneously’ and ‘the very tools of connectivity that will enable so much transparency will also serve to enable more sophisticated means of theft and fraud.’”[2]
With no more context than this we can see that “conspiracy theories” are associated with nothing but bad things. For one, they are introduced with falsehoods as a phrase: “conspiracy theories and falsehoods.” And they result from ignorance -- from people using only “bits and pieces” of information because this information is too “transparent” and therefore does not have sufficient official controls. Ordinary people, then, lacking any discipline of thought, will just build “whatever hypotheses they like” with this total access to information, producing obviously incorrect “conspiracy theories.” There may even be an implied connection here between “conspiracy theories” and “theft and fraud.”
It is important to note that these are not the connotations of the term “bad conspiracy theories,” for there is no such qualifier in the text above. Conspiracy theories as a class are understood to be incorrect, so that denigrating them with a negative qualifier (as in “absurd conspiracy theories”) would merely be to add redundant emphasis.
I pass to the second article in the list.
This one is talking about an old underground film called “Peep Show,” purporting to be a documentary, and which some attribute to one J.X. Williams. The film, according to The New York Times, “tells a tangled tale of a rigged 1960 election, secret C.I.A. training camps in the Florida outback, sex stings in Mafia hotels and a little-known Mob plot to addict Frank Sinatra to heroin.” So this is a film that alleges the ruling elite does bad things in secret, including the corruption of the democratic process, and it lumps accusations of secret doings by the ruling elite with the activities of organized crime. In other words, this is a ‘conspiracy theory’ film.
The film is a fraud, explains the Times, because it is made out of stock footage from commercial movies, carefully pasted together to simulate a documentary. I am also told that “Roughly 100 gay sex pulp novels were published under the alleged author's byline [J.X. Williams] throughout the 50’s and 60’s,” but they were in fact written by various different authors; the supposed ‘Williams’ -- allegedly in mysterious self-imposed exile -- most likely does not exist.
The New York Times has lots of fun pointing all of this out, but nothing is funnier than the newspaper's remarks concerning Noel Lawrence, whom the Times considers an even bigger clown than the nonexistent ‘Williams.’ This Lawrence calls himself the curator of the Williams oeuvre, the proper attribution of which requires that Lawrence violate copyright law, as currently somebody else’s name is on every one of those films. The New York Times makes savage fun of Noel Lawrence, and closes the piece with a self-evident irony, which is Lawrence’s fallback explanation of Williams’ purpose:
“. . .when pushed on any contradiction. . ., [Lawrence] defaults to a defense of Williams as perhaps the first postmodernist. ‘I think what J.X. [Williams] was trying to do in certain ways -- and maybe this part was prescient,’ he said, ‘was to present a film that was a parody of conspiracy theory. . .’”[3]
In other words, somewhat pathetically, Lawrence here defeats the whole J.X. Williams rebellious mystique (“Peep Show” was supposed to have been suppressed) by defending the alleged filmmaker as someone who merely meant to make fun of ‘conspiracy theory,’ not -- heaven forbid -- propose, and much less document, one. And this, says Lawrence, was “prescient,” for which my thesaurus spits out “prophetic” and “clairvoyant,” meaning that we are now all making fun of ‘conspiracy theory.’ So J.X. Williams wasn’t a nonexistent radical documenting the crimes of the powerful, he was a nonexistent ironic artist ahead of his time, one of the first to teach that ‘conspiracy theory’ was laughable.
I remind you that my point here is neither to attack nor defend “Peep Show.” I haven't seen the film, and I don't care. The point is merely to document the manner in which the New York Times employs the term ‘conspiracy theory.’ What we find, once again, is that for the New York Times a ‘conspiracy theory’ -- for example, claims of CIA dirty tricks, underworld Mob doings, corruption of democracy by the powerful, and such -- is most likely a fraud that intelligent people, as opposed to fools such as Noel Lawrence, are expected to laugh at.
I pass to the third example. About the death of Pope John Paul II, The New York Times wrote:
“The Vatican has published a meticulous account of Pope John Paul II’s final days, vividly describing his last hours and providing an official chronology of his death.
. . .The Vatican did not provide a similar report for John Paul’s predecessor, Pope John Paul I, who died in 1978, just over a month into his papacy. As a result, conspiracy theories abounded about his death.
George Weigel, a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington and a papal biographer, said the Vatican’s report on John Paul II should be construed as an effort ‘to clarify the sequence of events.’
‘It is important to have that on the record before the myth makers take over,’ he said in a telephone interview.”[4]
Something else that falls in the category ‘conspiracy theory’ is the idea that a pope may have been murdered by the Vatican. A voice of authority -- George Weigel, a “senior fellow” at something calling itself the “Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington,” and also a “papal biographer” -- explains that official statements by the Vatican are equivalent to “the record,” and they should be construed as efforts to tell the truth, for they are meant “to clarify the sequence of events.” By contrast, the suggestion that a pope may have been assassinated by the Vatican leadership is the sort of thing that “myth makers” will engage in. And notice that, once again, what opens the field to the “myth makers,” as in our first example, is the absence of properly controlled official information: if only the Vatican had not neglected to produce an official report for the death of John Paul I, the undisciplined thinking of ordinary people would not have produced so many “conspiracy theories” which, needless to say, are incorrect.
Three out of three. All usages of ‘conspiracy theory’ so far have been perfectly consistent.
This could go on forever. I’ve made my point. According to how this term is used in The New York Times, ‘conspiracy theories’ will be theories that stipulate that the ruling elite is doing bad things in secret. Such theories are supposed to be laughable, stupid, and wrong, and what makes them flourish is an absence of adequately controlled, official information. My claim is that the way The New York Times uses ‘conspiracy theory’ is how people in general use this term, and to see whether I am right you need only type ‘conspiracy theory’ into an online search engine such as Google, performing your own analysis of common usage. I predict that your conclusions will match mine.
Now you see why this exercise was necessary before you could answer for yourself whether this website is an example of ‘conspiracy theory.’ We may now consider this question.
Is this a 'conspiracy theory' website?
________________________________
It is certainly the case that articles and books on this website allege that many people in power are doing bad things in secret. You will find, for example, many allegations that US Intelligence has engaged in specific acts of criminal behavior, causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and even millions of innocent people, and hurting the interests of ordinary Americans, to whom nothing is said. You will also encounter the claim, repeatedly, that the Western mass media is controlled by the Western intelligence services. However, the ineluctable linkage that The New York Times makes between these kinds of claims and supposedly obvious incorrectness is one that does not follow.
It is not in principle impossible for the ruling elite to do bad things in secret, and they have in fact been caught doing bad things in secret many times. Just to give one famous example, during the 1980s it came to light that US Intelligence was training a terrorist force in Nicaragua that engaged in wholesale slaughter of Nicaraguan peasants, aid workers, priests and nuns, and even schoolchildren: the Contras. Here is how one newspaper summarized Contra activities:
“The Contras have ambushed religious-aid workers, beheading a nun and riddling her body with bullets. They have also eviscerated a pregnant woman, shot campesinos (peasants) and slaughtered their animals, cut down Red Cross workers and bombed towns with their schools and hospitals.”[4a]
They were doing all this on the CIA's instructions, something that was demonstrated when a former Contra (Edgar Chamorro) produced the CIA training manual that taught these thugs to murder innocent people.[5] None of the people responsible did any jail time, which means there is no real disincentive to doing this, and many of them are back in office in Bush Jr.’s administration, which naturally increases the probability that they are at it again.
Thus, if someone makes a claim that the ruling elite is doing bad things in secret this is not necessarily laughable, stupid, and wrong. Those who accused the US ruling elite of having created a terrorist force that slaughtered Nicaraguan peasants were right. And the same goes for those who accused that, at the same time, the US ruling elite was arming the Iranian terrorists during the Iran-Iraq war (while claiming to oppose them). Precisely because they were right, the discovery of the double-conspiracy in the mid-1980s was labeled the "Iran-Contra scandal."
Whether specific allegations that those in power engage in criminal activities are sensible allegations or not answers to the question: "Is there evidence for such allegations?" When such claims do not agree with our best scientific efforts to establish the facts, then we may consider them incorrect. But we certainly should not dismiss such claims as a matter of principle, and neither should we pretend that consulting the official press releases of the institutions presided by the ruling elite will be the way to scientifically investigate such claims.
So is this website an example of ‘conspiracy theory’?
You will be the judge. The articles in this website contain a footnote for every claim. This makes it possible for any interested reader to consult my stated source for that particular claim, and check whether I misquoted it, distorted it, took it out of context, or simply made up the information. You do not have to guess whether “anonymous” or “unnamed” sources, according to whom I state that X is true, really exist. Why? Because I do not use such sources. When, for whatever reason, it is impossible to identify or else reveal a source for a claim, then I do not make that claim. I only make claims that you can check.
Why?
For a very simple reason. When there is no mechanism for the reader to identify a fraud, the reader can be lied to with impunity, so why should the reader believe anything? Yes, of course, I know that The New York Times attributes lots of things to “unnamed sources,” never providing a single footnote, and also that many people unquestioningly believe everything they read in The New York Times. The question is whether this is rational. Science requires that others be able to verify what you claim. In other words, scientists do not trust each other to tell the truth, and by not trusting, they create the conditions that allow for the identification of frauds. Only when such conditions exist can a reader have any confidence that there is an incentive to tell the truth. I have gone out of my way to make it possible for my readers to show that I got anything wrong. And to make the process of verification easier, whenever I can provide a web-link to any particular piece of information, I do.
Every individual person can make up his or her own mind whether my hypotheses are plausible -- that is, whether they appear to agree with enough facts that they ought to be considered. If you decide that they ought to be, then this website is not an example of ‘conspiracy theory,’ because my claims about how the ruling elite does bad things in secret will be neither laughably absurd nor necessarily incorrect.
Final reflections
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Here is an interesting question to ponder: In what kind of society will it be easiest for the ruling elite to do bad things in secret, to everybody else’s disadvantage, without people finding out? In my view, in a society where most people believe that claims about the ruling elite doing bad things in secret must be laughably absurd and therefore necessarily incorrect -- you know, ‘conspiracy theories.’
I would submit that this is a law of anthropology: When those in power are watched less, they tend to get away with more.
On the basis of this law, if someone ever asks you the question, ‘Might there not be conspiracies by the ruling elite?’, you can already produce an intelligent guess even without doing any research on any specific allegation of conspiracy. You can ask yourself this: Is it the case that most people automatically believe that conspiracies cannot be happening? The answer is yes, because ‘conspiracy theories’ are supposed to be automatically idiotic. This makes conspiracies much easier to carry out, and with such a tremendous incentive, it would be surprising if the ruling elites were not in fact taking advantage. But in order to find out what exactly the ruling elites are or aren’t doing, of course, scientific research -- i.e. research that other people can verify -- will be necessary, because false accusations of conspiracy are also possible, and publications that allege conspiracies without providing documentation should not be trusted.
I leave you with this question. How to interpret the fact that The New York Times, which is supposed to be keeping an eye on government, tells us that ‘conspiracy theories’ are automatically incorrect?
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Footnotes
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[1] http://www.nytco.com/investors-nyt-circulation.html
[2] Four Futures, All Without the Jetsons, The New York Times, October 2, 2005 Sunday, Late Edition - Final, Section 3; Column 1; Money and Business/Financial Desk; OFF THE SHELF; Pg. 8, 1069 words, By PAUL B. BROWN
[3] Wrapped in an Enigma, Hidden In a Film Archive, The New York Times, October 2, 2005 Sunday, Late Edition - Final, Section 2; Column 5; Arts and Leisure Desk; FILM; Pg. 22, 1180 words, By PAUL CULLUM, LOS ANGELES
[4] Vatican Releases Official Record Of Pope John Paul II's Final Days, The New York Times, September 19, 2005 Monday, Late Edition - Final, Section A; Column 1; Foreign Desk; Pg. 10, 498 words, By BRIAN WINGFIELD, ROME, Sept. 18
[4a] Contras cling to their war, The Toronto Star, April 29, 1990, Sunday, SUNDAY SECOND EDITION, NEWS; Pg. H1, 1030 words, By Linda Diebel Toronto Star, MANAGUA
[5] The man who created the Contra terrorist force for the CIA is Vincent Cannistraro, who didn't go to jail and who is pushed these days by the mainstream media Establishment as a "news analyst" you ought to trust on matters of foreign policy and intelligence. In fact he is often introduced as a counter-terrorism expert! To learn more about him, consult the following three HIR investigations:
“The mainstream Western media loves Raymond McGovern and Vincent Cannistraro, former CIA agents and anti-Israeli propagandists”; Historical and Investigative Research, 25 Aug 2005; by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot2.htm
“Should you believe ‘former CIA officials’ such as Raymond McGovern and Vincent Cannistraro?”; Historical and Investigative Research, 25 Aug 2005; by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot3.htm
“How the mass media covers for Vincent Cannistraro, terrorist, and creator of the Nicaraguan Contras”; Historical and Investigative Research, 25 Aug 2005; by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot4.htm
The last piece above discusses Edgar Chamorro, a former Contra who exposed that the CIA was training the Contras to murder civilians.
www.hirhome.com
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Ok Lubab... your going way off-topic now. Im dont want to hear about how tough it is for conspiratory beleivers.
.. a man name David Irving is spending 3 years in a jail for publicly denying the existance of a hollocaust in the Austria. Yes... it is VERY tough for him.. and yes... it may be unfair that he is in jail... BUT... that doesnt make his conspiracies any more believable.
And YES... Rosie O'donnel has been mocked and made fun of... but that doesnt change the fact that her facts are all WRONG... and extremely easy to dissprove.
I have very politely answered every question I have been asked of the conspiracy claims. I have not skipped a SINGLE question you or Nik asked me personally. So now that I have done this.. you have to answer questions from me.
WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?
What do you think of people who seek to dissprove the Hollocaust? What motivates them?
How are you different from them??
Okay the way this works is not that simple.
You have responded to many questions (I don't think all) but you have not "answered" them.
All you have done are give me some facts that help support the official position. You have (possibly) proven that things could have happened the way Washington says they did. You have also (possibly) pointed out certain flaws in the conspiracy theory videos (hey nobody's perfect right?).
That doesn't end the inquiry.
For instance, you might have proven fire could've done it...but you have not proven that explosives did NOT do it catch my drift?
So where do we stand?
We stand with an event that we all know happened. And two views on why it happened and who was responsible.
The next step is to see which of the two narratives makes more logical sense. Which story is more likely?
So while it may be POSSIBLE for jet fuel to have done this, I still think it's VERY UNLIKELY that it did. Once I've surveyed all the evidence and given your websites the care and scrutiny they deserve I may well conclude that while both scenarios are possible it's more likely that explosives from the inside did this than fire from jet fuel.
So while it is possible that our military was completely incompetent in dealing with these Air Threats, I think it's more likely that they were not that incompetent but rather were given an order to stand down.
So while it's possible Bush is so stupid he couldn't realize he would be target #1 for the next attack and get out of there, I think it's unlikely. I think it makes more sense that someone acting the way he did had some inside knowledge that he wasn't going to be attacked.
I could go 50-50 on this one because if he knew it was a conspiracy he likely would have done something that made him look like he was helping the situation...but then we're back to Bush being dumb again.
So while it's possible that a passport containing the names of the hijackers survived the crash unscathed. I think it's unlikely. I think it's more likely that they were planted.
On a lot of these issues I can go either way...making a logical argument for either side...so I haven't decided conclusively either way.
I still need to look at the evidence more...and I may never be able to reach a conclusion either way and that's okay. It's okay to have doubts about what you think happened. If Bush were a bit more open to answering questions about this event we could probably clear it up pretty quickly but he doesn't really allow for these kinds of questions...so we're kind of stuck.
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Nik.. do you want me to post all the garbage conspiracy that strormfront pushes?
Do you want me to show you post after post of them saying that JEWS are inherently evil... and JEWS (not catholics) are the ones that are responsible for 9/11 and everything else that is bad.
Do you want me to show you how they believe that Jews routinely kill Christian children in order to use their blood for Maza?
Do you want me to show you that they believe that the JEWS were the ones that committed genocide on the Nazi's and that the Nazis were just innocent?
You wont realize how awful and evil your conspiracies are unless... you see conspiracy theories that are aimed at YOU!!! (and me to)
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Re: WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?
Hey Brian,
When did you stop beating your wife? Do you like being asked questions like that? I don't either.
I seek out this info because I know there are other theories other than Washington's theory and I simply want to know which theory is more credible. If someone is researching the holocoust conspiracies I would hope they would approach it with the same honesty and side with the story that seems most likely and credible just as a jury must do when deciding a court case.
There's always evidence to prove both sides in every court case, question is which story stacks us best?
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Nik.. do you want me to post all the garbage conspiracy that strormfront pushes?
Do you want me to show you post after post of them saying that JEWS are inherently evil... and JEWS (not catholics) are the ones that are responsible for 9/11 and everything else that is bad.
Do you want me to show you how they believe that Jews routinely kill Christian children in order to use their blood for Maza?
Do you want me to show you that they believe that the JEWS were the ones that committed genocide on the Nazi's and that the Nazis were just innocent?
You wont realize how awful and evil your conspiracies are unless... you see conspiracy theories that are aimed at YOU!!! (and me to)
By the same logic we should just always believe what the prosecution says in every court case...because some criminal defendants make up vicious and phoney alibies that implicate perfectly innocent people...and you'd never want that to happen to you!
It's illogical.
You need to take each theory on a case by case basis-weigh the evidence and see which narrative makes more sense.
You want us to believe that if one particularly conspiracy is bad then they all must be bad...and I just will never buy that.
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Re: WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?
Hey Brian,
When did you stop beating your wife? Do you like being asked questions like that? I don't either.
Woa Woa Woa why are you becoming rude??? I just spent a huge amount of time answering your questions in a polite way (Something that NO OTHER MEMBER WOULD DO and you respond to me this way??
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You need to take each theory on a case by case basis-weigh the evidence and see which narrative makes more sense.
You want us to believe that if one particularly conspiracy is bad then they all must be bad...and I just will never buy that.
How do you decide which conspiracy is bad and which is good??? Again... I have heard this EXACT same argument with neo-nazis... and they pretend to be completely UNBIASED... and they tell me they are only trying to weigh the evidence. and they keep telling me that they ONLY want to find the truth.
Again... flip things around.. .and look at how awful and evil Conspiracies are when they are aimed at YOU (and me).
When the conspiracy say that YOU!!! are reponsible for 9/11 and YOU are responsible for starting WWII.. etc etc.
ITs hurtful and sickening... but it will give you an idea of what you are doing... if you continue to pursue this line of thought.
Anyhoo... I gotta go to sleep. But I hope in the future... you will think twice before pursuing this kind of nonsence.
Take care :)
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go for it... bry... for there is a huge difference between them and me... i'm speaking the truth... and they are all willfully lying... i have no invested need or interest in the slime being in existence and in hating them... i objectively found this evidence and other evidence that explains why there is so much seeming evidence that seems to indicate that we jews are the real culprits who have done this whole thing to and against the world or the goyim... and they at StørmFrønt et al are all a bunch of liars... who do have an unquenchable hatred for jews and do have a vested interest in making us the guilty party to crimes of history against all of mankind.. plus they all need to cover up and make someone else take the fall for them... exactly bec. all these sick things have been perpt on the world throughout all-time... and thus while we were being exiled and murdered and plundered and raped and locked away in ghettos for nearly 1700 years... some of us were yet free enough to roam the planet... enough of us... strong enough... wealthy enough... powerful enough to get goyish hordes to kill and steal for us... fight world wars for us... conquer, colonize and exploit the resources of the third world for us... and all the while we had the perfect hideout and cover-story... for guess what world... we were being abused, beaten and tortured too and kept like animals in cages!!!! and that's our alibi... r...i...g...h...t... hey bry... you want that beach property in ariz. i have for you... now...?
think!!! think for just one second... who had all the power thru history...? esav/rome/europe... who had the motive and opportunity and desire to dominate the world...? the same... and who had the power to cover it all up and blame someone else...? the jews of europe or the church and royal families...? the elite-slime who always lived like kings and queens or the hapless and hopeless denizens of a despised and thoroughly discredited and beaten-down and psychologically whipped religious faith...? you know as it turns out... Hashem knew what He was doing to let us live thru and absorb all that horror for so long... bec. we can be blamed for all this evil... but it can never be believed by the decent folk of the earth... and we will be totally vindicated one day in the eyes of all mankind...
because we can even now still prove our total and complete innocence of these false charges... we are clean... and G-d thru our agony can exonerate us on the world docket... jews like the rothchilds and kissingers of history can certainly be pointed to but they never died for their crimes... only the little jews did... only or mostly the torah jews suffered for the satanic sins of the kapo jews... so those jews may give the lie to the goyim to use... but the leaders of the goyim who wield these lies like an axe... they know it's just an excuse that they use to justify their jew-icide thru history and the proof is in the very fact that they leave these highfalutin creep, traitor jews alone and only concentrate on killing the ones of us who never had any power and never had a single evil thought to harm the peoples of the earth... never once did it cross their holy and pure minds to do any of this... not once... not ever... we have only cared for the world and prayed for her... and worked on ourselves to serve G-d and befriend man... and G-d does everything for a purpose and for our own true good... and this is one thing He has done for us... He has made it impossible for these diseased charges to ever stick and appear to be accurate in the minds of the unpolluted members of humanity... so let the filth say what they will and believe what they want... they are demented and in the end everyone is going to know they are lying... and this will one day include the high-scumbags too... people will catch on that they are just as low as the low-scum of StørmFrønt or the kkk and their ilk... white-trash both with money and without... the white-trash epitaph... is for the white elitist and the white low-life equally... the ones who hates G-d, jews, torah and israel only... not for any other white man or woman... and i shouldn't have to say this to anyone here any longer... you have to know by now who i am referring to and to whom i am not... and only to them as well when i say something this shocking and controversial... i have no more to give tonite... i only continued bec. this got in ahead of my signing off... nik. out...
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go for it... for there is a huge difference between them and me... i'm speaking the truth... and they are all willfully lying... i have no invested need or interest in the slime being in existence and in hating them... i objectively found this evidence and other evidence that explains why there is so much seeming evidence that seems to indicate that we jews are the real culprits who have done this whole thing to and against the world or the goyim... and they the liars... do have an unquenchable hatred for jews and do have a vested interest in making us the guilty party to crimes of history against all of mankind.. plus they all need to cover up and make someone else take the fall for them... exactly bec. all these sick things have been perpt on the world throughout all-time... and thus while we were being exiled and murdered and plundered and raped and locked away in ghettos for nearly 1700 years... some of us were yet free enough to roam the planet... enough of us... strong enough... wealthy enough... powerful enough to get goyish hordes to kill and steal for us... fight world wars for us... conquer, colonize and exploit the resources of the third world for us... and all the while we had the perfect hideout and cover-story... we were being abused beaten and tortured too and kept like animals in cages!!!! right... you want that beach property in ariz. now...?
think!!! think for just one second... who had all the power thru history...? esav/rome/europe... who had the motive and opportunity and desire to dominate the world...? the same... and who had the power to cover it all up and blame someone else...? the jews of europe or the church and royal families...? the elite-slime who always lived like kings and queens or the hapless and hopeless denizens of a despised and thoroughly discredited religious faith...? you know as it turns out... Hashem knew what He was doing to let us live thru and absorb all that horror for so long...bec. we can be blamed for all this evil... but we can even now still prove our total and complete innocence of these false charges... we are clean... and G-d thru our agony can exonerate us on the world docket... jews like the rothchilds and kissingers of history can certainly be pointed to but they never died for their crimes... only the little jews did... only or mostly the torah jews suffered for their satanic sins... so those jews may give the lie to the goyim to use... but they no it's just an excuse they use to justify jew-icide thru history and the proof is in the very fact that they leave these highfalutin creep, traitor jews alone and only concentrate on killing the ones of us who never had any power and never had a single evil thought to harm the peoples of the earth... never once did it cross their holy and pure minds to do any of this... not once... not ever... we have only cared for the world and prayed for her... and worked on ourselves to serve G-d and befriend man... and G-d does everything for a purpose and for our true good... and this is one thing He has done for us... make it impossible for these diseased charges to ever stick and appear to be accurate in the minds of the unpolluted members of humanity... so let the filth say what they will and believe what they want... they are demented and in the end everyone is going to know they are lying... and this will one day include the high-scumbags too... people will catch on that they are just as low as the low-scum of StørmFrønt or the kkk and their ilk... white-trash both with money and without... the white-trash epitaph... is for the white elitist and the white low-life equally... the ones who hates G-d, jews, torah and israel only... not for any other white man or woman... and i shouldn't have to say this to anyone here any longer... you have to know by now who i am referring to and to whom i am not... and only to them as well when i say something this shocking and controversial... i have no more to give tonite... i only continued bec. this got in ahead of my signing off... nik. out...
Nik.. you know I am not going to post their hate. (You called my bluff I guess)
oh well.. I tried. Again Nik.. be prepared for me to redicule you again tomorrow when you post your conspiracies again. (And I will be vicious... in a funny sort of way) :::D
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Re: WHY have YOU decided to seek out information to dissprove or (revise) 9/11 history?
Hey Brian,
When did you stop beating your wife? Do you like being asked questions like that? I don't either.
Woa Woa Woa why are you becoming rude??? I just spent a huge amount of time answering your questions in a polite way (Something that NO OTHER MEMBER WOULD DO and you respond to me this way??
Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be rude..just was trying to make a point. No offense intended at all.
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You need to take each theory on a case by case basis-weigh the evidence and see which narrative makes more sense.
You want us to believe that if one particularly conspiracy is bad then they all must be bad...and I just will never buy that.
How do you decide which conspiracy is bad and which is good??? Again... I have heard this EXACT same argument with neo-nazis... and they pretend to be completely UNBIASED... and they tell me they are only trying to weigh the evidence. and they keep telling me that they ONLY want to find the truth.
Again... flip things around.. .and look at how awful and evil Conspiracies are when they are aimed at YOU (and me).
When the conspiracy say that YOU!!! are reponsible for 9/11 and YOU are responsible for starting WWII.. etc etc.
ITs hurtful and sickening... but it will give you an idea of what you are doing... if you continue to pursue this line of thought.
Anyhoo... I gotta go to sleep. But I hope in the future... you will think twice before pursuing this kind of nonsence.
Take care :)
I hope you realize that what you subscribe to is also a conspiracy theory. It was a conspiracy by Al Queda and those hijackers to take down the towers. Why is my conspiracy so potentially evil and yours is not, just because you have Bush on your team?
"Conspiracy theory" is a label that doesn't really add much to the table.
We all agree there was a conspiracy here. The question is who was in on it? Just Al Queda? Or the government too?
We decide that by looking objectively at all the evidence to see what makes more sense with logic, science, math, our perceptions of reality and all the other unmutuable laws of nature. If we can't decide based on that we let it hang for a while until new evidence comes out... I think that's a fair way of doing things, don't you?
If someone comes to the conclusion that after viewing all the evidence no Jews were killed in the holocoust then I'd say they probably did a piss poor job of weighing the evidence or didn't weigh it at all.
Question:
Is it possible that one conspiracy theory is wrong and another is right?
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unbelievable... this is just absurd... lubab... or anyone else here... i have just answered briann's claim about what makes us so different than the filth who deny the holoc and blame the jews for all of the satanic evil of history... i defy anyone to examine my last post and/or the one before it and show me where, how or why i haven't just blown briann away... blown his arguments right out of the water... that the arguments that he offers as proofs to consp. theories all being false is due to the haters and scum also using them as a tool... which is like saying ketchup doesn't exist bec. these slime use it too on their burgers and fries... just sick his lack of intellectual honesty... there's that phrase again... quick better look it up... nik. out...
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By your logic we shouldn't blame Al Queda for 9-11, because that is a conspiracy theory, and next it could be the Loyalists who are blamed!
Which proves my point. "Conspiracy theories" are just explanations for events other than the ones the government came up with.
Why does the government get total immunity from the label "conspiracy theory" when they say their version of events?!
How do we know when a politician is lying? When they open their mouth. We all know that. If anything I think the government version should always be stamped with that label because they are some of the most dishonest people in the planet.
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unbelievable... this is just absurd... lubab... or anyone else here... i have just answered briann's claim about what makes us so different than the filth who deny the holoc and blame the jews for all of the satanic evil of history... i defy anyone to examine my last post and/or the one before it and show me where, how or why i haven't just blown briann away... blown his arguments right out of the water... that the arguments that he offers as proofs to consp. theories all being false is due to the haters and scum also using them as a tool... which is like saying ketchup doesn't exist bec. these slime use it too on their burgers and fries... just sick his lack of intellectual honesty... there's that phrase again... quick better look it up... nik. out...
I don't believe in ganging up on people in internet debates. I don't like it when it's done on me. It's late...maybe he'll read it tomorrow.
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yes lubab... good point that last one... see the book by jim marrs... yes.. haha... he's from mars... i know... but it just happens to be the man's name... "terror conspiracy..." he says just that... anyway you cut it... this is not a lone-nut action... this is a bonafide conspiracy one way or the other... there is simply no way around it... no two ways about it... a conspiracy all the way... from start to finish... it just has yet to be determined whose conspiracy it is... nineteen arab youths working alone with no powerful help beyond maybe a few baggage checkers... or everyone else we accuse all the way up the ladder and all the way around the globe...? nik. we got 'em this time for sure lubab... out...
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I think you have taken "Rebuilding Americas Defenses" out of context.
I have posted on my blog a copy of this document, along with the Presidents Daily Briefing on August 6th. I dont support any conspiracy theory and I am just so disappointed that we werent able to capture and stop OBL and this plot before it happened.
Here is a link : http://lgfsucks.wordpress.com/documents/
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avideditor: "This is just sick the jihadis did it. I did not join the JTF to talk to wako conspiracy theorist."
Which organization did you join to talk to wako conspiracy theorists?
p.s.-- It's spelled WACO, TX ...not wako!
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There was an Asian man (forgot his name) who testified before Congress that he was with Dick Cheney when the plane was approaching the Pentagon and people kept running in asking him "does the order still stand?!" and even when the plane was withing 10 miles of the Pentagon he kept saying "yes the order still stands, have you heard anything to the contrary from me!" You can find this testimony on Youtube. It was reported in the mainstream media. Now what "order" was Cheney referring to. It seems obvious to me that the only order he was referring to was an order for the Air Force to do nothing about that plane heading into the Pentagon...because that's exactly what happened...nothing...and in it went and many people were killed there.
Where is this on Youtube? And if it is on Youtube how do you know he is not talking about something else? Please show me this video.
Just as a side note: How could Cheney know there was plane heading toward the Pentagon? Why do you think Bush grounded all flights that day?
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In both the WTC Towers, the ruptures and crumblings initiated from the zones and floors where the planes have hit the buildings.
If it was a controlled demolition, then the ruptures and crumblings could have started from any other floors.
Now both these towers had more than 100 floors, so in any one tower the probability of this being a pure coincidence or overlapping stands the chances of being possible only once in hundred attempts = (1/100).
Similarly in the other tower also the probability of this being a pure coincidence or overlapping stands the same chances of being possible only once in hundred attempts = (1/100).
As the two towers had gone down within the same set of attempts, then the probability of this being a pure coincidence or overlapping stands the chances of being possible only once in ten thousand attempts = (1/(100)*(100)) = (1/10000).
This may explain that the Joint Front of terrorists with insider collaborators shall need to repeatedly attempt 10000 of such performances randomly again and again to be successful only once, where a conspiracy may look like a genuine case of terrorism.
With Regards... :)
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In both the WTC Towers, the ruptures and crumblings initiated from the zones and floors where the planes have hit the buildings.
If it was a controlled demolition, then the ruptures and crumblings could have started from any other floors.
Now both these towers had more than 100 floors, so in any one tower the probability of this being a pure coincidence or overlapping stands the chances of being possible only once in hundred attempts = (1/100).
Similarly in the other tower also the probability of this being a pure coincidence or overlapping stands the same chances of being possible only once in hundred attempts = (1/100).
As the two towers had gone down within the same set of attempts, then the probability of this being a pure coincidence or overlapping stands the chances of being possible only once in ten thousand attempts = (1/(100)*(100)) = (1/10000).
This may explain that the Joint Front of terrorists with insider collaborators shall need to repeatedly attempt 10000 of such performances randomly again and again to be successful only once, where a conspiracy may look like a genuine case of terrorism.
With Regards... :)
I mean the Joint Front of terrorists with their insider collaborators shall need to randomly and repeatedly crash 10000 pairs of WTC like twin towers with 20000 numbers of loaded Boeing jets, in order to prove that their conspiracy looks like a genuine case of terrorism and that they can repeat the same feat again.
With Regards... :)
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CNN did one and more than a majority of Americans think there's the possibility of some kind of government cover up. In NY it goes up to like 80% of people who think it could be an inside job.
80% of Americans are dimwits.
Its a fact.
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The Japanese were framed on December 7, 1941.
It was Bush and Cheney who ordered the attacks on Pearl Harbor!
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There was an Asian man (forgot his name) who testified before Congress that he was with Dick Cheney when the plane was approaching the Pentagon and people kept running in asking him "does the order still stand?!" and even when the plane was withing 10 miles of the Pentagon he kept saying "yes the order still stands, have you heard anything to the contrary from me!" You can find this testimony on Youtube. It was reported in the mainstream media. Now what "order" was Cheney referring to. It seems obvious to me that the only order he was referring to was an order for the Air Force to do nothing about that plane heading into the Pentagon...because that's exactly what happened...nothing...and in it went and many people were killed there.
Where is this on Youtube? And if it is on Youtube how do you know he is not talking about something else? Please show me this video.
Just as a side note: How could Cheney know there was plane heading toward the Pentagon? Why do you think Bush grounded all flights that day?
If some Asian man said it, then it must be true.
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8 Nagging questions about 911.
Translation:
8 reasons why the nineteen hijackers were framed.
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1. Apparently we have a whole lot of Air Force Defenses in this country. We have a very high tech military. Maybe the best in the world. This military has protocols on how to deal with hijacked planes. It is my understanding that even commercial flights that go off slightly are quickly surrounded on both sides with US fighter planes on both sides. NORAD I believe is the organization in charge of this stuff.
Yet over the course of 2 hours on 9-11 one plane hit. Another plane hit. It was clear we were under attack. Then a third plane hit the Pentagon (which I would assume would be the the best guarded building in the country). There was apparently a fleet of fighter planes about 10 miles away. I think it's called Andrew's Feild or something like that. Not one plane of ours went up into the air that day to do something about those planes which they knew were WAY off course and obviously up to no good.
Why is this?
If you believe that 911 is a conspiracy then you have your simple answer, all tied up in a neat little package. Now, all we need is a Winter Solstice tree to put it under.
The fact of the matter is that it takes time do deploy military aircraft. The military had no way of predicting where the terrorists were going to attack and therfore were unable to stop the first three planes.
The fourth plane was shot down. Why? Because the military had the time to react.
Besides, if 911 was an inside job, why did the CIA (or whoever) crash the 4th plane into an empty field rather than the middle of a major city?
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fine and they absconded with all the evidence so no one was ever permitted outside of their little clique to view it... shipped all overseas... china, etc. scrap metal... might as well make a buck out of all this tragedy... right...? after all... that's the american way!!! isn't it...? just sick... and huge slabs of bldg mass should have been found... why was everything pulverized to dust...? except for the steel which as i said they shipped out in trucks carrying transponders so they could track each driver's movements... what the hell was that for...? worried the steel might end up on e-bay somewhere...? well... that too would have been the amer. way!!! we have all been lied to... it is obvious save for those who refuse to see that something sinister was going on... an evil agenda was in play... the machinations of evildoers was at work... and within a week all this destroying of the evidence was complete... tell me there wasn't something truly sick up with that... since when is evidence ever processed out that quick...? especially for a crime of such horrific magnitude...? nik.
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loosechange brings a withering array of evidence that this was all a set-up... the project for the next amer. century (pnac) penned in 1996 by all the future players in bush 2's future white house made clear their aim to step up their ability to grow the military and expand its reach and use... empire bldg. was its goal... to hell with democracy... to hell with freedom for the world at large... the earth was going to become the elitists oyster... and it has... from jacking up oil profits for his cronies... to laying down the law overseas in countries who do not want us there to gutting the bill of rights right back here at home... it's all in pnac... go read it for yourself... cheney, wolfie-jew-boy, and all the rest of this sordid cast make an appearance there... and it is the very script and exact game plan put into place against our will ever since 9/11... nik.
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scrib... they decided that they had done enough or sufficient damage to the amer. psyche for one day to get the carte blanche in foreign policy they were shooting for... that and they wanted to give folks a warm and fuzzy to hold on to with the bs about the passenger's "heroic rebellion..." don't forget... it is out of that little piece of fiction that bushie-boy got his fight-slogan... "let's roll..." what a load of horses-it... pardon my french... nik.
SCRIBIE HERE'S THE ANSWER... YOOOHOO... RIGHT OVER HERE SCRIB... n.
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simmer down scrib... shhh!!!! (whisper)... "i already did..." nik.
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"If 911 was an inside job, why did the CIA (or whoever) crash the 4th plane into an empty field rather than the middle of a major city?"
Can anyone answer this excellent question?
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what's wrong with the answer i just gave you... 2 answers in fact all rolled up into one... 2 for the price of 1... the amer. way!!! nik.
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scrib... they decided they had done enough or sufficient damage to the amer. psyche for one day to get the carte blanche in foreign policy they were shooting for... that and they wanted to give folks a warm and fuzzy to hold onto with the bs about the passenger's "heroic rebellion..." don't forget... it is out of that little piece of fiction that bushie-boy got his fight-slogan... "let's roll..." what a load of horses-it... pardon my french... nik.
You came up with a good answer.
I disagree, but it was a good answer nonetheless.
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thank you... someone here at last with a little intellectual honesty... i applaud you... no make that... i also salute you... n.
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i'm going off to pray now... be back later... nik.
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i'm going off to pray now... be back later... nik.
Pray for me.
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But as per conspiracy theorists, what was the destination of the 4th plane?
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But as per conspiracy theorists, what was the destination of the 4th plane?
I don't think the conspiracy theorists have an answer for the 4th plane.
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it was aiming for congress or the white house... and i pray for all decent human beings all over the world...nik.
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There was an Asian man (forgot his name) who testified before Congress that he was with Dick Cheney when the plane was approaching the Pentagon and people kept running in asking him "does the order still stand?!" and even when the plane was withing 10 miles of the Pentagon he kept saying "yes the order still stands, have you heard anything to the contrary from me!" You can find this testimony on Youtube. It was reported in the mainstream media. Now what "order" was Cheney referring to. It seems obvious to me that the only order he was referring to was an order for the Air Force to do nothing about that plane heading into the Pentagon...because that's exactly what happened...nothing...and in it went and many people were killed there.
Where is this on Youtube? And if it is on Youtube how do you know he is not talking about something else? Please show me this video.
Just as a side note: How could Cheney know there was plane heading toward the Pentagon? Why do you think Bush grounded all flights that day?
Here's the Asian dude and the full video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlM8Sui6-X0 His name was Norman Mineta.
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Some people try to say he was talking about the flight that was shot down over Pennsylvania.
This proves otherwise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGI5BmNd7AE&feature=related
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OK Lubab- the serious part is that WE GOT ATTACKED. The RIDICULOUS part is that people think Bush did IT TO US.
(Even great debaters stop for a laugh)
NOBODY will get ME to believe in what some of you re trying to trump up- not in a million years.
That's because you don't really know George W. Bush. You THINK you know who he is but you really don't. His grandaddy (prescott bush) was a NAZI. He was very instrumental in helping Hitler get elected. If you research the ties between Nazism and the Bush's you'll find they are pretty darn strong.
And both W. and Pappy Bush go every year to the Bohemian Grove to participate in mock (or possibly real) child sacrific to Lucifer and Moloch (the false idol we are specifically told not to worship in the Bible in the form of child sacrifices). These sickos have been caught on tape doing this ritual and it is real and yes Bush attends every year.
Homosexuality is also rampant at these Bohemian Grove sicko celebrations. They are basically a party for some of our most powerful world leaders to celebrate everything the G-d of Israel hates.
I'm sure you're also aware he's a long time member of the devil worshiping Skull and Bones.
That's the real George W. Bush. No man of any principle would be caught anywhere near these Satan worshiping cults.
These guys are not conservatives, and they're not Christians. They're evil Paullette and if they can celebrate the death (real or mock) of an innocent child then don't think for too long that they value the lives of you and me either.
Power. That's all most politicians care about. They are elitists and Chaim has opened our eyes to this for years.
A year before 9-11 Cheney said in a report called "Rebuilding America's Defenses" that a "Pearl Harbor type of event" would be helpful for us to invade Iraq and take out Saddam. So it's not so far fetched. They needed an event like this because they wanted in to Iraq and Saddam out. Chaim has explained to us clearly how the Iraq War has been a disaster as far as an effective fight in the war on terror. They did it for their own selfish reasons, not because they care about us.
Our government has done many false flag operations all over the world to replace dictators we don't like in other countries. I don't find it so hard to believe they could've done it here too.
I know that nobody WANTS to believe anyone could be so evil...but we can't bury our heads in the sand...we need to do our own investigation and that's what I'm trying to do here. And I do really appreciate Brian sharing his knowledge to help clarify what really happened.
I DONT bury my head in the SAND. I WAS THERE, I AM A NYer. I saw the smoke for 90 days AFTER. I KNOW who did it. I KNOW who 'claimed responsibility.' They were evil enough, really evil, but not evil enough for these arguments here. You think that people in Israel buy this? They deal with terror everyday...so the skull and bones operate in Israel as well, and Americans are really palestinians in disguise? Islam is not real, and all of this is crazy BS & evil behind evil.....No such thing as bin laden, saddam, gadaffi, al zarkawi, uday, qusay- ETC...why.... this is ALL a figment of your imagination you know?
BTW: I STILL have the $50- and NOBODY is winning NOW, you all have to WORK HARDER, I AM NOT CONVINCED. AND I JUST RAISED THE STAKES To $100- I hope you sleep tonight.
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OK Lubab- the serious part is that WE GOT ATTACKED. The RIDICULOUS part is that people think Bush did IT TO US.
(Even great debaters stop for a laugh)
NOBODY will get ME to believe in what some of you re trying to trump up- not in a million years.
That's because you don't really know George W. Bush. You THINK you know who he is but you really don't. His grandaddy (prescott bush) was a NAZI. He was very instrumental in helping Hitler get elected. If you research the ties between Nazism and the Bush's you'll find they are pretty darn strong.
And both W. and Pappy Bush go every year to the Bohemian Grove to participate in mock (or possibly real) child sacrific to Lucifer and Moloch (the false idol we are specifically told not to worship in the Bible in the form of child sacrifices). These sickos have been caught on tape doing this ritual and it is real and yes Bush attends every year.
Homosexuality is also rampant at these Bohemian Grove sicko celebrations. They are basically a party for some of our most powerful world leaders to celebrate everything the G-d of Israel hates.
I'm sure you're also aware he's a long time member of the devil worshiping Skull and Bones.
That's the real George W. Bush. No man of any principle would be caught anywhere near these Satan worshiping cults.
These guys are not conservatives, and they're not Christians. They're evil Paullette and if they can celebrate the death (real or mock) of an innocent child then don't think for too long that they value the lives of you and me either.
Power. That's all most politicians care about. They are elitists and Chaim has opened our eyes to this for years.
A year before 9-11 Cheney said in a report called "Rebuilding America's Defenses" that a "Pearl Harbor type of event" would be helpful for us to invade Iraq and take out Saddam. So it's not so far fetched. They needed an event like this because they wanted in to Iraq and Saddam out. Chaim has explained to us clearly how the Iraq War has been a disaster as far as an effective fight in the war on terror. They did it for their own selfish reasons, not because they care about us.
Our government has done many false flag operations all over the world to replace dictators we don't like in other countries. I don't find it so hard to believe they could've done it here too.
I know that nobody WANTS to believe anyone could be so evil...but we can't bury our heads in the sand...we need to do our own investigation and that's what I'm trying to do here. And I do really appreciate Brian sharing his knowledge to help clarify what really happened.
I DONT bury my head in the SAND. I WAS THERE, I AM A NYer. I saw the smoke for 90 days AFTER. I KNOW who did it. I KNOW who 'claimed responsibility.' They were evil enough, really evil, but not evil enough for these arguments here. You think that people in Israel buy this? They deal with terror everyday...so the skull and bones operate in Israel as well, and Americans are really palestinians in disguise? Islam is not real, and all of this is crazy BS & evil behind evil.....No such thing as bin laden, saddam, gadaffi, al zarkawi, uday, qusay- ETC...why.... this is ALL a figment of your imagination you know?
BTW: I STILL have the $50- and NOBODY is winning NOW, you all have to WORK HARDER, I AM NOT CONVINCED. AND I JUST RAISED THE STAKES To $100- I hope you sleep tonight.
Paullete,
If you research and understand the goals and ideology of the "New World Order". This will all make a lot more sense to you.
Those terrorists you mention are all real. Real haters of non-Muslims and real scum.
Bush is an elitist and like his father a believer in a One World Government.
The Muslims and their will to kill the non-believers are a tool the elitists can use to destroy national sovereignty and achieve that goal.
That's one way to look at it.
Or you can just realize that Bush simply has lots of business ties with the Saudis and the Bin Ladin Family that go way back...he owes them big time. And he cares more about his money and power than he cares about the American people because he's an elitist scumbag and that's how these folks operate.
So it may just be that the Bush government intentionally turned a blind eye to what Al Queda was doing because he owed em one....or maybe he even helped out...(it sure seems like he did)...because an event like this provided an excellent opportunity for Bush to come off as a hero, increase his executive power...take away a whole bunch of our civil liberties etc...and invade Iraq which is something administration had been wanting to do since well before 9-11.
There is a range of possibilities ranging from Bush just being criminally negligent and completely incompetent in his reaction to the threat...to Bush-Cheney possibly taking a very active role. It's not clear to me at all which of those categories he falls into.
Either way he's a traitor who cares more about his Saudi friends than he does the American people or he never would have defended and worked with the Saudis in the wake of the attack which even according to the official story was carried out by a Saudi terrorist group.
If you support terrorists...you are a terrorist...Bush supports the Saudi regime so...do the math.
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Why could not the plane 4 reach to its target?
With Regards.. :)
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9/11 WAS a conspiracy. A Muslim one.
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9/11 WAS a conspiracy. A Muslim one.
Well nobody has the right to deny our gov. had any support or involvement in the attacks unless they've answered all 8 questions. ;)
That's the dictatorial rule I just made up for this thread.
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Why could not the plane 4 reach to its target?
With Regards.. :)
I think it's because the people on the plane revolted and the plane went down in the scuffle between the passengers and the hijackers.
I think Nik has another theory, though.
There's also some weird facts about the rubble that resulted from that plane...it looked more like a pile of some scrap metal than a plane that had crashed...but I haven't really looked into that much. Some conspiracy theorists say that plane didn't crash at all, rather it was landed at some other airport and the people inside were "disposed of".
Definitely have not looked into it enough to have a firm opinion.
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That reminds me,
Can Brian explain why the Bin Ladin family were some of the only people priveleged to fly on 9-11 and get out of the country?e
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8
An excellent video showing an animation of the crash into the pentagon.
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9/11 WAS a conspiracy. A Muslim one.
Well nobody has the right to deny our gov. had any support or involvement in the attacks unless they've answered all 8 questions. ;)
That's the dictatorial rule I just made up for this thread.
Actually, the burden of proof is on you. But believe me, we will get to your questions.
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And it may make you sick to see how you were misled and how these charlatans are playing with people.
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9/11 WAS a conspiracy. A Muslim one.
Well nobody has the right to deny our gov. had any support or involvement in the attacks unless they've answered all 8 questions. ;)
That's the dictatorial rule I just made up for this thread.
Actually, the burden of proof is on you. But believe me, we will get to your questions.
Why is the burden of proof on me? Why does Washington's story get any more credibility than someone else's? Just because more people believe it? Just because they have multi-national media conglomerates on their side?
There's no burden on anyone. Every can look at the facts and make up their own mind. The government doesn't have a monopoly on truth. Never forget that.
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And it may make you sick to see how you were misled and how these charlatans are playing with people.
We just had a world anti-conspiracy expert here...he was able to provide alternate theories for how these buildings collapsed but they were no more plausible than any other theory. In fact, they were less so.
So I look forward to your answers.
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That reminds me,
Can Brian explain why the Bin Ladin family were some of the only people priveleged to fly on 9-11 and get out of the country?e
September 22, 2001 was the day that the bin ladens left the country... If my name was bin laden, I think I would want to get out too.
I have a theory as well. It was a nice day.. really nice... all of the sudden a plane hit the WTC.. then another hit- it was HORRIFYING. They played the attack every day all day long, everyday for a week. I didnt sleep thinking of only terror, my countrymen gone, newpapers filled with hundreds of obituaries, people cursing out saudis all over where I lived, GIGANTIC tanks were all over the reservoir in my neighborhood.. WAY upstate NY, all that I wanted was vengeance, but I realized that many more of these bastards were in my country. I REMEMBERED how there were NO izlamic vendors that day in Manhattan, and NO CAB DRIVERS- the thought crossed my mind EVERY DAY. I didnt care if ahghanistan 'liked us' I didnt give a damn if they were all dead, matter of fact I WANTED them ALL DEAD.
The people on the plane above Shanksville KNEW, they KNEW that these were HIJACKERS.
~This is the 'theory' that I have, yet nobody believes it, why cant they just see what I am trying to point out amidst 'what really happened' in THEIR opinion. It is very hard for people to see my 'trumped up' version here, it is as if...I am the Conspirer, and THEY, are telling the truth..... :'( :'(
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I"m going to add one more question that's been bothering me to the list.
"The people who trained these Al Queda guys are on tape saying that these guys were pretty crappy pilots...how did such a crappy pilot manage to hit such a low target as the pentagon...ask anyone with flight experience...it's a VERY difficult thing to do. "
Will copy-paste this now into the original post.
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9/11 WAS a conspiracy. A Muslim one.
Well nobody has the right to deny our gov. had any support or involvement in the attacks unless they've answered all 8 questions. ;)
That's the dictatorial rule I just made up for this thread.
Actually, the burden of proof is on you. But believe me, we will get to your questions.
Why is the burden of proof on me? Why does Washington's story get any more credibility than someone else's? Just because more people believe it? Just because they have multi-national media conglomerates on their side?
There's no burden on anyone. Every can look at the facts and make up their own mind. The government doesn't have a monopoly on truth. Never forget that.
This is a rhetorical trick. You call it washington's story so that people doubt it. Because they distrust washington. But it's not washington's story. It is backed up by fact and evidence. People claiming controlled demolition have NO EVIDENCE found in the debris to support it. The burden of proof is on them to show us something to prove it was controlled demolition. It simply wasn't. The people who push this "but there are unanswered questions" angle are dishonest because they are not "open to the truth." They have simply decided that the govt was involved, as a preconceived notion, and that anything, any fact, any evidence, that contradicts this notion is to be dismissed out of hand as either "washington's lies" or 'made up by the slime' or 'just covering up'... etc...... It's really a joke. I don't have time until next week to really discuss this.
Or when you say one point, they respond by saying "but what about such and such" 'what about this other point' this is often ridiculous because they have nothing to do with one another. But the 9/11 liars have assembled a whole list of 'talking points' so if you refute one, they say ah but there such and such.... grasping at straws Lubab.
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I"m going to add one more question that's been bothering me to the list.
"The people who trained these Al Queda guys are on tape saying that these guys were pretty crappy pilots...how did such a crappy pilot manage to hit such a low target as the pentagon...ask anyone with flight experience...it's a VERY difficult thing to do. "
Will copy-paste this now into the original post.
You've taken this line from a video. This is absurd. You don't provide who said this. You don't say the person's background. The context for the quote. How is this "evidence?" This is called rambling.
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And actually that's not difficult AT ALL! It's a HUGE building compared to the size of the plane. It's not hard to do. It's DANGEROUS to do. So no one would ever do it. But a buffoon could point the plane in the direction of a large building and then ram it as fast as he can.
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And it may make you sick to see how you were misled and how these charlatans are playing with people.
We just had a world anti-conspiracy expert here...
I don't know who you're referring to but I hope you are kidding.
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9/11 WAS a conspiracy. A Muslim one.
Well nobody has the right to deny our gov. had any support or involvement in the attacks unless they've answered all 8 questions. ;)
That's the dictatorial rule I just made up for this thread.
Actually, the burden of proof is on you. But believe me, we will get to your questions.
Why is the burden of proof on me? Why does Washington's story get any more credibility than someone else's? Just because more people believe it? Just because they have multi-national media conglomerates on their side?
There's no burden on anyone. Every can look at the facts and make up their own mind. The government doesn't have a monopoly on truth. Never forget that.
This is a rhetorical trick. You call it washington's story so that people doubt it. Because they distrust washington. But it's not washington's story. It is backed up by fact and evidence. People claiming controlled demolition have NO EVIDENCE found in the debris to support it. The burden of proof is on them to show us something to prove it was controlled demolition. It simply wasn't. The people who push this "but there are unanswered questions" angle are dishonest because they are not "open to the truth." They have simply decided that the govt was involved, as a preconceived notion, and that anything, any fact, any evidence, that contradicts this notion is to be dismissed out of hand as either "washington's lies" or 'made up by the slime' or 'just covering up'... etc...... It's really a joke. I don't have time until next week to really discuss this.
Ok. So right off the bat you have no skepticism about the fact that fire from jet fuel could take down two entire steel building which was specifically made to withstand plane crashes. I mean maybe you could prove that COULD happen but it's that something extremely unusual and nutty!
Right off the bat you have no skepticism about the fact that the city get's rid of all the evidence so fast?
Right off the bat you're not a little weirded out that we were doing training on that very event that very morning and then the government tells us they had no idea terrorists would fly planes into buildings.
Right off the bat you're not skeptical about Cheney saying "the order still stands" as a plane crashes into the most well protected building in the nation. If you're not skeptical about this stuff..then you're just drinking government koolade.
And that, my friends, is the power of first impression. Since you saw Bush get up and say what he thinks happened first, his word is taken as gospel.
You don't find it odd that that no planes got in the way of the plane on its way to the pentagon?
I still think with all the endless "conincidences", miscaluculations, and complete incompetence that you must admit took place that day if you accept the official story...I truly believe that your story will wind up being much wackier than mine. But we'll see..
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I"m going to add one more question that's been bothering me to the list.
"The people who trained these Al Queda guys are on tape saying that these guys were pretty crappy pilots...how did such a crappy pilot manage to hit such a low target as the pentagon...ask anyone with flight experience...it's a VERY difficult thing to do. "
Will copy-paste this now into the original post.
You've taken this line from a video. This is absurd. You don't provide who said this. You don't say the person's background. The context for the quote. How is this "evidence?" This is called rambling.
No. That question came from Cohen. He has many friends in the Air Force who said exactly that. Ask him if you don't believe me.
It's from Cohen, not from a movie.
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Here we go again with parrotting the "loose change" lies and misleading statements. Don't worry lubab, call me names now but we will see who should be called names next week. It starts with the lying scum dylan avery.
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Lubab, I didn't need bush to tell me that the towers were hit by planes and then COLLAPSED. Because I saw it. We all saw it. The footage showed it that morning. And I saw the reckage. And I have friends who went there and did cleanup and helped the early rescue efforts. You find Cheney dishonest, so anything he says you want to question. Ok fine, but 9/11 happened regardless of who is in office. Someone has to explain it. If there are dishonest people in office, they will be the ones to talk about. It doesn't automatically mean the person is lying. If it wasn't cheney but someone else, you wouldn't still push this stuff? ? Of course you would be..... I'm done, I'll be back next week. I'm so tired of this garbage it has no business on this forum of all places. Muslims did this attack. They are on camera, in the security checks, some made 'farewell' videos with their little jihad headbands, they are on the voice recorders etc etc, then along comes a guy like nik and says "no they're still alive, dylan avery told me in his video"..... What? So who was in the plane? Did they survive too? Just utter idiocy. And those were rhetorical questions, don't answer them.
I'll give you a homework assignment tho. Research into controlled demolitions and tell me what are the basic characteristics of one.
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Here we go again with parrotting the "loose change" lies and misleading statements. Don't worry lubab, call me names now but we will see who should be called names next week. It starts with the lying scum dylan avery.
I'm looking forward to it!
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Lubab my point is, there is not something to question at first. It's not as if "whoa, we found explosives in the wreckage, whats going on here, cheney must be lying." For 9/11 liars it's more like "whoa, we found no physical evidence of anything, but Cheney is a liar and wicked, so there must be something about this that doesn't add up because he and his cohorts have to be implicated somehow."
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Here we go again with parrotting the "loose change" lies and misleading statements. Don't worry lubab, call me names now but we will see who should be called names next week. It starts with the lying scum dylan avery.
I'm looking forward to it!
goodnight, have a good Shabbos
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There's another compelling theory other than controlled demolition about how those towers came down.
And that is that a chemical was used on the steel beams to sever them...I think it's called anthrax and some of the sparks coming off the building apparently have the same characteristics.
If those steel beams were compromised in advance with that chemical that would support a pancaking theory and would get us around the unlikely scenario that the little jet fuel remaining after the initial explosion melted enough steel to bring the entire building down that fast.
I still find that very hard to believe. You'd need to show me another building made out of steel that collapsed that way just from a regular fire before I can begin to wrap my mind around that one.
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What I just don't understand is why people get so sensitive and dismissive when someone dare suggests that their own government was involved in killing its own citizens.
As if it's the first time it's happened in history! Please! If the government didn't try to kill its own people that would be a weird occurance, historically speaking.
I know everyone is so fixated on exposing Islam that they can't see past that to see other possible enemies, but it's not a contradiction folks! They could've easily been working together. They did business together (Bush's and Bin Ladens), why not do a little terrorism together too? Terrorism is also a business, for those that know.
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I still find that very hard to believe. You'd need to show me another building made out of steel that collapsed that way just from a regular fire before I can begin to wrap my mind around that one.
Was that a regular fire?
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What I just don't understand is why people get so sensitive and dismissive when someone dare suggests that their own government was involved in killing its own citizens.
As if it's the first time it's happened in history! Please! If the government didn't try to kill its own people that would be a weird occurance, historically speaking.
I know everyone is so fixated on exposing Islam that they can't see past that to see other possible enemies, but it's not a contradiction folks! They could've easily been working together. They did business together (Bush's and Bin Ladens), why not do a little terrorism together too? Terrorism is also a business, for those that know.
Lubab- Did Bush also work with bin laden to blast the USS COLE? Did 41, Clinton and 43 ALSO blow up the Embassies in East Africa? Do you also think that Bush was part in bringing those 10+ blackhawks down, just for the sake of playing war games?
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I"m going to add one more question that's been bothering me to the list.
"The people who trained these Al Queda guys are on tape saying that these guys were pretty crappy pilots...how did such a crappy pilot manage to hit such a low target as the pentagon...ask anyone with flight experience...it's a VERY difficult thing to do. "
Will copy-paste this now into the original post.
Also that those trainees were absolutely never interested in learning the landing of the planes.
Obviously those crappy pilot managed to learn the partial art of horizontal flying and hitting of low targets at those very institutes. It is different that they managed to fool their wise trainers as the trainers always thought that these useless fools can never land their Boeings properly.
With Regards... :)
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Why could not the plane 4 reach to its target?
With Regards.. :)
I think it's because the people on the plane revolted and the plane went down in the scuffle between the passengers and the hijackers.
I think Nik has another theory, though.
There's also some weird facts about the rubble that resulted from that plane...it looked more like a pile of some scrap metal than a plane that had crashed...but I haven't really looked into that much. Some conspiracy theorists say that plane didn't crash at all, rather it was landed at some other airport and the people inside were "disposed of".
Definitely have not looked into it enough to have a firm opinion.
However if it would have been an inside conspiracy plane, the conspirators would have managed to release sleeping gas on the passengers to make them sleep while hijackers do away with their targets.
With Regards... :)
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I"m going to add one more question that's been bothering me to the list.
"The people who trained these Al Queda guys are on tape saying that these guys were pretty crappy pilots...how did such a crappy pilot manage to hit such a low target as the pentagon...ask anyone with flight experience...it's a VERY difficult thing to do. "
Will copy-paste this now into the original post.
Also that those trainees were absolutely never interested in learning the landing of the planes.
Obviously those crappy pilot managed to learn the partial art of horizontal flying and hitting of low targets at those very institutes. It is different that they managed to fool their wise trainers as the trainers always thought that these useless fools can never land their Boeings properly.
With Regards... :)
Yes, and Bush their Iman promised them 72 virgins himself. Bush is a muslim ya know, he's also a bohemian and practices skull duggery.
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I"m going to add one more question that's been bothering me to the list.
"The people who trained these Al Queda guys are on tape saying that these guys were pretty crappy pilots...how did such a crappy pilot manage to hit such a low target as the pentagon...ask anyone with flight experience...it's a VERY difficult thing to do. "
Will copy-paste this now into the original post.
Also that those trainees were absolutely never interested in learning the landing of the planes.
Obviously those crappy pilot managed to learn the partial art of horizontal flying and hitting of low targets at those very institutes. It is different that they managed to fool their wise trainers as the trainers always thought that these useless fools can never land their Boeings properly.
With Regards... :)
Yes, and Bush their Iman promised them 72 virgins himself. Bush is a muslim ya know, he's also a bohemian and practices skull duggery.
Bush must be winking ;) ;) ...and Obama must be getting cheesy :D.
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There's another compelling theory other than controlled demolition about how those towers came down.
And that is that a chemical was used on the steel beams to sever them...I think it's called anthrax and some of the sparks coming off the building apparently have the same characteristics.
Anthrax is a biological disease and its powder is a biological warfare agent.
With Regards... :)
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There's another compelling theory other than controlled demolition about how those towers came down....
...If those steel beams were compromised in advance with that chemical that would support a pancaking theory and would get us around the unlikely scenario that the little jet fuel remaining after the initial explosion melted enough steel to bring the entire building down that fast...
No steel beams can be compromised in advance with any Anthrax that I know in such a manner.
Anyhow the jet fuel never intended to melt the steel. They only needed to reach to the temperature beyond 550 - 600 deg C, when the creep and yield properties and strengths of steel decrease drastically and the plastic deformation sets in.
As many of the vertical beams were already cut off by the horizontal force of the impact, so reaching only to the yield point temperature of the unbroken and remnant loaded beams added further fuel to the fire leading to further and final rupture. Then it was like domino cards in vertical order.
Burning of high energy fuel within a contained enclosure having impact created vents for flow of free air in or out, created an entrapped burning like a most efficient boiler where the temperature went on to increase uncontrollably till its maximum possible limit. That was enough to reach to the yield point of steel beams and their failure due to increased loading.
The entire building by its normal inherent design was meant to come down fast in case of a collapse. It was never intended to come down slowly with erosion.
With Regards... :)
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There's another compelling theory other than controlled demolition about how those towers came down...
I still find that very hard to believe. You'd need to show me another building made out of steel that collapsed that way just from a regular fire before I can begin to wrap my mind around that one.
If I remember properly, WTC was different than most of all other buildings. Most probably they had improved beams of hollow cross-sections used for the first time. They were certainly superior against torsion and buckling. However their horizontal members were to fail against severe bending moments created by impact of the falling roofs and thus the contained domino effect or falling and collapsing on its own footprints.
With Regards... :)
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9/11 WAS a conspiracy. A Muslim one.
Well nobody has the right to deny our gov. had any support or involvement in the attacks unless they've answered all 8 questions. ;)
That's the dictatorial rule I just made up for this thread.
You never answered my question about the 4th plane.
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Lubab,
Who hijaked the planes? The CIA?
American agents don't have the guts to kill themselves in that fashion. You know that.
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Lubab,
I have many theories as to why you will not answer my question about the 4th plane!
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Lubab,
Who hijaked the planes? The CIA?
American agents don't have the guts to kill themselves in that fashion. You know that.
Scriabin- I have my OWN theory- which Lubab or Nik refuse to believe.
The MUSLIMS DID IT. BLAME THE MUSLIMS. ISLAM DID IT.
Hows THAT for ya? Now I gave ya something to REALLY think about!
Oh- btw- you KNOW Israel will NEVER believe for a second that the muslims did it........ :-\
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Lubab,
I have many theories as to why you will not answer my question about the 4th plane!
Nik already answered that question.
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Lubab,
I have many theories as to why you will not answer my question about the 4th plane!
Nik already answered that question.
That answer satisfied you?
Are you serious?
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Lubab,
Who hijaked the planes? The CIA?
American agents don't have the guts to kill themselves in that fashion. You know that.
That wouldn't be necessary. The US military has the ability to hijack planes and fly them by remote control. The government has talked about staging terrorist attacks in just that manner to dispose of other dictators around the world in unclassified documents that have surfaced recently. That is one possibility.
Or it may be it was real Arabs from Al Queda who flew the ones into WTC (the easy target), and the plane that hit the pentagon wasn't really a planes at all (there was no plane wreckage found there...hole size created was too small for a plane of that size...and there was no hole where the engines hit...plus there were tons of cameras rolling tape on that area that day but we've yet to see an actual plane go in there..and the gov. refused to release more tapes other than 5 still frames which don't show any plan at all) while Cheney and co. helped them out by intentionally sleeping at the wheel.
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Lubab,
I have many theories as to why you will not answer my question about the 4th plane!
Nik already answered that question.
That answer satisfied you?
Are you serious?
Yes. The next logical targets would be the White House or Capital.
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Hitting the greatest political centers of the US would be a win-win for a Bush-Al Queada team.
Al Queda get's to knock out a major infidel target and beome heros in the Muslim world.and Bush get's to declare Marshal law and give himself even more power to do whatever he wants and go to war with whoever he wants.
Now remember, I'm just playing devils advocate here, trying to show there is a logical argument to be made on the other side.
If you don't think it's logical, tell me why.
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Lubab,
Who hijaked the planes? The CIA?
American agents don't have the guts to kill themselves in that fashion. You know that.
That wouldn't be necessary. The US military has the ability to hijack planes and fly them by remote control. The government has talked about staging terrorist attacks in just that manner to dispose of other dictators around the world in unclassified documents that have surfaced recently. That is one possibility.
Or it may be it was real Arabs from Al Queda who flew the ones into WTC (the easy target), and the plane that hit the pentagon wasn't really a planes at all (there was no plane wreckage found there...hole size created was too small for a plane of that size...and there was no hole where the engines hit...plus there were tons of cameras rolling tape on that area that day but we've yet to see an actual plane go in there..and the gov. refused to release more tapes other than 5 still frames which don't show any plan at all) while Cheney and co. helped them out by intentionally sleeping at the wheel.
Lubab- GET A GRIP.
So does Israel have little mechanisms to plant on palestinians bomber people at random, to blow them UP and blame the palestinians ANYWAY?
Do you have ANY CLUE how SILLY this looks and sounds?
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Lubab,
Who hijaked the planes? The CIA?
American agents don't have the guts to kill themselves in that fashion. You know that.
That wouldn't be necessary. The US military has the ability to hijack planes and fly them by remote control. The government has talked about staging terrorist attacks in just that manner to dispose of other dictators around the world in unclassified documents that have surfaced recently. That is one possibility.
Or it may be it was real Arabs from Al Queda who flew the ones into WTC (the easy target), and the plane that hit the pentagon wasn't really a planes at all (there was no plane wreckage found there...hole size created was too small for a plane of that size...and there was no hole where the engines hit...plus there were tons of cameras rolling tape on that area that day but we've yet to see an actual plane go in there..and the gov. refused to release more tapes other than 5 still frames which don't show any plan at all) while Cheney and co. helped them out by intentionally sleeping at the wheel.
Lubab- GET A GRIP.
So does Israel have little mechanisms to plant on palestinians bomber people at random, to blow them UP and blame the palestinians ANYWAY?
Do you have ANY CLUE how SILLY this looks and sounds?
Good point.
Until this thread was started, I never considered the possibility that PLO suicide bombers could actually be controlled remotely by the Israeli Government.
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it's the truth... why shouldn't he be serious about accepting it...?
look what you guys are missing here... is that none of the planes that hit targets... i.e. only the twin towers were actually hit by any aircraft... but neither of them were the planes that they appeared to be... they were painted to look like those planes from a quick glance people had or might have had of them as they flew past and into their targets.... they were military planes flown by remote control... and on both undersides of these carriers missiles were attached and shot into each bldg. before impact by the planes... (this last point from the very beg. of loosechange 9/11 edition 1)... and this is true bec. as seen from eyewitnesses' accounts... people were claiming to have seen no windows on the sides and also to have thought them to be cargo planes as they said they appeared to them to have been somewhat smaller than passenger planes... however after the full-court press applied by the media propaganda machine these good people became confused into thinking they didn't see what they saw or hear what they heard... and these stories stopped being reported and people stopped coming forward with them out of fear... fear for what would happen to them and their families if they contradicted the false "official story being put forth with and by the full weight of the gov't.... also many of the ones who might have been brave enough and who bec. of their loyalty to amer. did not see or feel to have any reason at the time to discount the official line... and so did not wish to seem unpatriotic in a time of national crisis... they too let go of their contrary sightings and did not insist on trying to get the story changed... again they had no reason to assume their own gov't. was lying to them and they certainly had no reason to suspect that their own gov't. had attacked its own citizenry... but i am coming here to set the record straight so that one day justice can be administered and meted out and the victims and their families can have a true accounting as to what really happened to them and their loved ones and can see the proper people punished for these murders...
what happened to the real 2 planes is simple... they landed wherever they were sent off to when all planes were being grounded and ordered out of the sky... these 2 planes in all the turmoil and chaos were lost track of and this enabled the part of the military in on the hit against amer. to sequester these two planes wherever in a hangar and then kill the passengers and destroy the plane... (this point will be further clarified further down and emanates from a portion of the loosechange 9/11 second edition film while addressing what really happened to the penn. plane)... it didn't crash land or get shot down... see further down...
the same thing happened with the pentagon plane... there it is clear that no plane whatsoever was impacted into the bldg. even though there was a passenger jet that screamed over the site moments before the attack as witnesses claim... and there was a fighter jet seen in the area by some witnesses as well... and of course the mysterious white plane which was the command post of the gov't. run operation on 9/11 to attack their own country... many including secret service point to this plane over the white house after the day's events unfolded... the fighter jet of course fired one or two cruise missiles into the pentagon and retired... this is the famous plane that the young aide kept querying cheney about letting it get this close (10 miles out at last report) without trying to intercept it as reported by "the asian guy" secretary or transportation norman mineta who was in the bunker with cheney and gave the report of this strange back and forth between the veep and this aide... anyhow... so wherever that passenger plane ended up... the same scenario occurred... the crew and passengers were murdered and the plane decimated beyond recognition... in fact this plane and i believe the penn. plane are both still on the books as extent planes by their airlines... check this point out in lc9/11 2nd ed... and utilize that video for the next paragraph's claims as well...
now we come to penn. and here there is more evid. as to what happened to it... bec. 2 planes landed in close succession in cleveland and one plane deplaned quickly and the other not for an hour or more... and one plane went to a reg. terminal and the other was wheeled into a nasa hangar at or near that airport... and he doesn't say it outright in the tape but there is no other explanation if that was indeed the crew and passengers and plane claimed to have fallen from the sky over penn. these poor souls were all murdered so that they could not contradict the gov't.'s story... and a plane crash was very shabbily and very poorly simulated on that field and no one was buying it even at the time as stated by many of the local tv crews and anchors covering the site... even from the distance they were kept back to... they could plainly see that no plane had gone down there... nik. more to follow... out...
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it's the truth... why shouldn't he be serious about accepting it...?
no, you are all trying to talk US into this screwey version of what is going on in your heads from eating too many crackers.
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Lubab,
Who hijaked the planes? The CIA?
American agents don't have the guts to kill themselves in that fashion. You know that.
That wouldn't be necessary. The US military has the ability to hijack planes and fly them by remote control. The government has talked about staging terrorist attacks in just that manner to dispose of other dictators around the world in unclassified documents that have surfaced recently. That is one possibility.
Or it may be it was real Arabs from Al Queda who flew the ones into WTC (the easy target), and the plane that hit the pentagon wasn't really a planes at all (there was no plane wreckage found there...hole size created was too small for a plane of that size...and there was no hole where the engines hit...plus there were tons of cameras rolling tape on that area that day but we've yet to see an actual plane go in there..and the gov. refused to release more tapes other than 5 still frames which don't show any plan at all) while Cheney and co. helped them out by intentionally sleeping at the wheel.
Lubab- GET A GRIP.
So does Israel have little mechanisms to plant on palestinians bomber people at random, to blow them UP and blame the palestinians ANYWAY?
Do you have ANY CLUE how SILLY this looks and sounds?
Good point.
Until this thread was started, I never considered the possibility that PLO suicide bombers could actually be controlled remotely by the Israeli Government.
Well Scriabin- its a STRONG possibilty after looking at this. ::)
Good LRD!
GET
A
GRIP
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(video)
Loose change appears to be a Loose Talk.
It has changed its own versions so many times that by this time, it would have turned in to a laughingstock not only to the general audience but also to its own creators.
QUOTE>> The original film was edited and re-released as Loose Change: 2nd Edition, and then subsequently re-edited again for the 2nd Edition Recut, each time to tighten the focus on certain key areas and to remove what the filmmakers have learned to be inaccuracies and copyrighted material. Loose Change: Final Cut, deemed "the third and final release of this documentary series"[7] was released on DVD and Web-streaming format on November 11, 2007.[8] This installment is a completely new film; using almost none of the same content appearing in the previous Loose Change versions. <<UNQUOTE
QUOTE>> Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone has written that the "9/11 truth movement": "gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dickwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes. <<UNQUOTE
QUOTE>> According to George Monbiot, "The film's greatest flaw is this: the men who made it are still alive. If the US government is running an all-knowing, all-encompassing conspiracy, why did it not snuff them out long ago? There is only one possible explanation. They are in fact agents of the Bush regime, employed to distract people from its real abuses of power. This, if you are inclined to believe such stories, is surely a more plausible theory than the one proposed in Loose Change. <<UNQUOTE
With Regards... :)
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don't give me other people's takes on those films... go to you tube to see the first edition... and then to the loosechange9/11 site to see both #2 and the final cut #3... then come back on here and tell us how it is all just a bunch of hooey... until then don't bring us any hearsay... ok...? nik. out...
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If US admnstrtn would have been so smart as suggested by loose change, they would have done everything with Iran by now.
With Regards... :)
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don't give me other people's takes on those films... go to you tube to see the first edition... and then to the loosechange9/11 site to see both #2 and the final cut #3... then come back on here and tell us how it is all just a bunch of hooey... until then don't bring us any hearsay... ok...? nik. out...
But then why they needed to change it over the long years for so many times? Obviously a plethora of seemingly fruitful afterthoughts.
With Regards... :)
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don't give me other people's takes on those films... go to you tube to see the first edition... and then to the loosechange9/11 site to see both #2 and the final cut #3... then come back on here and tell us how it is all just a bunch of hooey... until then don't bring us any hearsay... ok...? nik. out...
:P :P :P :P :P
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look... it's the way it is... the one they put in charge somewhere stops playing ball... or a better dictator thug for them comes along... or a better system to put in place... like communism in eastern europe was perfect for the capitalist nazis of the west so they helped arrange it to happen... and then it was good to have islamic terror spread from iran so they made that move when they needed to... and what should they have done with iran by now already...? they are on the verge... the very brink of nuking israel right now as we speak!!! i don't know why they have delayed this long in just going for all-out war and martial law in amer. they could have done this years ago already since 2000 without any of us being able to do a damn thing to stop them... maybe Hashem keeps foiling their plans and making it appear as not yet the right time... or maybe it isn't quite yet good to go for it bec. there is still something or someone out there that they haven't neutralized yet and so they are still caught up working on these loose ends... i'm not the slime... so i have no freakin' idea why they haven't flipped the switch yet and gone haywire on all of us globally... but they will... given enough time they will... just like they did by ww1 and even worse by ww2... ww3 is coming... any day now... G-d forbid... nik. out...
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look... it's the way it is... the one they put in charge somewhere stops playing ball... or a better dictator thug for them comes along... or a better system to put in place... like communism in eastern europe was perfect for the capitalist nazis of the west so they helped arrange it to happen... and then it was good to have islamic terror spread from iran so they made that move when they needed to... and what should they have done with iran by now already...? they are on the verge... the very brink of nuking israel right now as we speak!!! i don't know why they have delayed this long in just going for all-out war and martial law in amer. they could have done this years ago already since 2000 without any of us being able to do a damn thing to stop them... maybe Hashem keeps foiling their plans and making it appear as not yet the right time... or maybe it isn't quite yet good to go for it bec. there is still something or someone out there that they haven't neutralized yet and so they are still caught up working on these loose ends... i'm not the slime... so i have no freakin' idea why they haven't flipped the switch yet and gone haywire on all of us globally... but they will... given enough time they will... just like they did by ww1 and even worse by ww2... ww3 is coming... any day now... G-d forbid... nik. out...
Thanx, here I mostly agree with you Respected Nik.
With Regards... :)
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ok... and i salute and applaud your intellectual honesty... nik.
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look... it's the way it is... the one they put in charge somewhere stops playing ball... or a better dictator thug for them comes along... or a better system to put in place... like communism in eastern europe was perfect for the capitalist nazis of the west so they helped arrange it to happen... and then it was good to have islamic terror spread from iran so they made that move when they needed to... and what should they have done with iran by now already...? they are on the verge... the very brink of nuking israel right now as we speak!!! i don't know why they have delayed this long in just going for all-out war and martial law in amer. they could have done this years ago already since 2000 without any of us being able to do a damn thing to stop them... maybe Hashem keeps foiling their plans and making it appear as not yet the right time... or maybe it isn't quite yet good to go for it bec. there is still something or someone out there that they haven't neutralized yet and so they are still caught up working on these loose ends... i'm not the slime... so i have no freakin' idea why they haven't flipped the switch yet and gone haywire on all of us globally... but they will... given enough time they will... just like they did by ww1 and even worse by ww2... ww3 is coming... any day now... G-d forbid... nik. out...
Nik... HaShem will NOT allow man to destroy what HE created.
thats all. the rest eidted.
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so then why are you ragging on me so much...? i don't get you...? nik.
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so then why are you ragging on me so much...? i don't get you...? nik.
Yes, you are like a pimple that refuses to POP. Im NOT nagging on you- you just needed to SMILE a little BIT FERCRYINGOUTLOUD.
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Lubab,
Who hijaked the planes? The CIA?
American agents don't have the guts to kill themselves in that fashion. You know that.
That wouldn't be necessary. The US military has the ability to hijack planes and fly them by remote control. The government has talked about staging terrorist attacks in just that manner to dispose of other dictators around the world in unclassified documents that have surfaced recently. That is one possibility.
Or it may be it was real Arabs from Al Queda who flew the ones into WTC (the easy target), and the plane that hit the pentagon wasn't really a planes at all (there was no plane wreckage found there...hole size created was too small for a plane of that size...and there was no hole where the engines hit...plus there were tons of cameras rolling tape on that area that day but we've yet to see an actual plane go in there..and the gov. refused to release more tapes other than 5 still frames which don't show any plan at all) while Cheney and co. helped them out by intentionally sleeping at the wheel.
Lubab- GET A GRIP.
So does Israel have little mechanisms to plant on palestinians bomber people at random, to blow them UP and blame the palestinians ANYWAY?
Do you have ANY CLUE how SILLY this looks and sounds?
Nope! Those are real Arab Nazi terrorists.
The fact that you guys keep trying to put words into my mouth shows I"m not dealing with the most intellectuall honest people in the world. It's a strawman argument, and I see right through your mockery. It's not a form of argument.
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so then why are you ragging on me so much...? i don't get you...? nik.
Yes, you are like a pimple that refuses to POP. Im NOT nagging on you- you just needed to SMILE a little BIT FERCRYINGOUTLOUD.
You agree there's a holocoust being planned and Marhall Law pending and you want him to "Smile A Little Bit". Forgive me if I don't find that a bit strange.
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so then why are you ragging on me so much...? i don't get you...? nik.
Yes, you are like a pimple that refuses to POP. Im NOT nagging on you- you just needed to SMILE a little BIT FERCRYINGOUTLOUD.
You agree there's a holocoust being planned and Marhall Law pending and you want him to "Smile A Little Bit". Forgive me if I don't find that a bit strange.
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM ALSO A PERSON THAT HaShem uses as a TOOL for WARNING, but there is a time and place- NOT EVERY DAY, DAY IN AND DAY OUT. You know it too, and TODAY is Shabbat- a day for CELEBRATING. Look how many insane pages this has taken, there is BALANCE LUBAB, Balance! And I ALWAYS take up for Nik, so dont go there! I do audios here and I WEEP FOR THIS NATION, so DONT TELL ME!
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Lubab,
Who hijaked the planes? The CIA?
American agents don't have the guts to kill themselves in that fashion. You know that.
That wouldn't be necessary. The US military has the ability to hijack planes and fly them by remote control. The government has talked about staging terrorist attacks in just that manner to dispose of other dictators around the world in unclassified documents that have surfaced recently. That is one possibility.
Or it may be it was real Arabs from Al Queda who flew the ones into WTC (the easy target), and the plane that hit the pentagon wasn't really a planes at all (there was no plane wreckage found there...hole size created was too small for a plane of that size...and there was no hole where the engines hit...plus there were tons of cameras rolling tape on that area that day but we've yet to see an actual plane go in there..and the gov. refused to release more tapes other than 5 still frames which don't show any plan at all) while Cheney and co. helped them out by intentionally sleeping at the wheel.
Lubab- GET A GRIP.
So does Israel have little mechanisms to plant on palestinians bomber people at random, to blow them UP and blame the palestinians ANYWAY?
Do you have ANY CLUE how SILLY this looks and sounds?
Nope! Those are real Arab Nazi terrorists.
The fact that you guys keep trying to put words into my mouth shows I"m not dealing with the most intellectuall honest people in the world. It's a strawman argument, and I see right through your mockery. It's not a form of argument.
And.............................MY points are NOT A "form of mockery" au contraire.... YOURS ARE.
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you guys got nothin'... not a one o' yuz can stay with me on this... come on bry... you said you were gonna bring me some... let's see it... the u.s. elite scum slime nazi bastards that run this country killed 3000 of their fellow citizens in cold-blood on one day... but hey this all chump change compared what they are preparing to do withal of us good folks... jews and gentiles alike here in the good ol' usofa... and what they have in store for israel... and 9/11 was certainly child's play compared with what their fathers and grandfathers generations did in ww1&2... which was manufactured by them and designed by them to produce the net genocide which they both yielded and is still the script for the fast-coming on ww3... lo alenu... G-d forfend... so being shocked at my scenario for 9/11 is completely ludicrous... considering how many millions were slaughtered during the course of the 20th century and how many more are in their current slime-generation's sights for the decades to come here in the 21st century... if we refuse to open our eye and to stand up against them... nik.out...
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There's another compelling theory other than controlled demolition about how those towers came down.
And that is that a chemical was used on the steel beams to sever them...I think it's called anthrax and some of the sparks coming off the building apparently have the same characteristics.
If those steel beams were compromised in advance with that chemical that would support a pancaking theory and would get us around the unlikely scenario that the little jet fuel remaining after the initial explosion melted enough steel to bring the entire building down that fast.
I still find that very hard to believe. You'd need to show me another building made out of steel that collapsed that way just from a regular fire before I can begin to wrap my mind around that one.
This is insane. This sounds like a fantasy novel you're working on. You are just jumping from one thing to the next Lubab, because you are desperately trying to find a formula that adds up to "cheney et al are guilty." Truth is, the Muslims are guilty as we will see....
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You'd need to show me another building made out of steel that collapsed that way just from a regular fire before I can begin to wrap my mind around that one.
But it wasn't 'just a regular fire.' A plane crashed into a building going 500 mph. And furthermore, the building didn't collapse just from a regular fire. No one is claiming that. This is the inherent problem with 9/11 "truthers" Built-in straw men. They fight straw men so hard that people come to believe the straw man is the actual us govt claim.
I will repeat. No one is claiming that fire melted steel. And you cannot compare what happened to the twin towers to a normal fire in a steel building. That would be quite odd for people of sane minds. But not so odd for people who are already convinced the us govt did it and are looking for a way to pin it on them.
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Now I do not go in to the words and meanings of what Respected Lubab and Respected Nik are saying, rather I try to see the essence or spirit behind it.
I feel the pains of the world and history in them, which are beyond contradictions and discussions. Such matters can be thoroughly discussed, but then I think that only the almighty_ has answers to such things.
With Regards... :)
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yeah even if it were true that the jet fuel traveled down the elevator shaft and destroyed so much and caused explosions and gutted the lobby and the sub-basement machine shops and mangled the subway system underneath... even if all that were true (which is not and is beyond belief) but for argument-sake... let's say it is... that would apply only to the first tower hit... you see clearly that the second plane missed it's target and sliced into the corner of the bldg. and i've seen on video-film how all of its jet-fuel exploded outside in the air in a huge red fireball... and so therefore according to fact and reality... only the 1st tower hit should have collapsed if any of that above mentioned fiction would have been true about it... and the second one could not have possibly had any jet-fuel running down its elevator shaft.... and this is compelling proof that the whole official version is a crock!!!! there's nothing to say back on this one either... the gov't./media line is a lie... and they murdered all those people the way i described it here earlier on... sorry... but there is no there there to their story... nik. out...
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you see clearly that the second plane missed it's target and sliced into the corner of the bldg. and i've seen on video-film how all of its jet-fuel exploded outside in the air in a huge red fireball... and so therefore according to fact and reality... only the 1st tower hit should have collapsed
LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you watching the same video as everyone else? If you claim that the second plane "missed its target" you are completely INSANE. Sorry. I will get to this thread later in the week. But this has gotten beyond pathetic.
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you see clearly that the second plane missed it's target and sliced into the corner of the bldg. and i've seen on video-film how all of its jet-fuel exploded outside in the air in a huge red fireball... and so therefore according to fact and reality... only the 1st tower hit should have collapsed
LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you watching the same video as everyone else? If you claim that the second plane "missed its target" you are completely INSANE. Sorry. I will get to this thread later in the week. But this has gotten beyond pathetic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI8u-I0GWs4&feature=related
I think this is what Nik is referring to. Plane hits corner of building, not the center as you can plainly see. ("missed its target" i.e. the center of the building.
P.S. Dylan Avery is not ALL bad. He was asked to attend an event where a holocaust denier conspiracy guy would also be speaking and he refused to attend. He said "go spread your hate elsewhere. But there's a lot more to these questions than just what Dylan Avery presents.
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The towers were not built well, on trusses with a giant truss over the Con Ed station. It had no central supporting columns. Its main support was the outer skin. Once that was breached, the building lost integrity. Notice how the building came down top to bottom, not bottom to top, as is the case when a buidling is taken down.
As for WTC 7, it was brought down because the structure was too weak from the explosions next door. Windows can blow out from explosions 6 miles away, so just imagine next door.
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All I can say is Thank God the WTC towers collapsed the way they did.
If they didn't we would have had many more deaths occur on that one day.
Two jumbo jets striking buildings do not cause a 'regular' fire.
The impact alone probably was devastating to those towers.
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All I can say is Thank G-d the WTC towers collapsed the way they did.
If they didn't we would have had many more deaths occur on that one day.
Two jumbo jets striking buildings do not cause a 'regular' fire.
The impact alone probably was devastating to those towers.
Well I don't know if you trust the architect who created the towers, but he says he made it to withstand two such crashes each by planes even bigger than these.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871&q=9%2F11+Mysteries&total=513&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
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He tried.
I have heard him interviewed before.
Thank You for the link though.
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it missed slamming into the tower full square like the first one... the second one clipped the edge of one corner... it went inside but all or most of the jet fuel exploded out of the hole into the air... it is as clear as day from the look on loosechange final cut... check it out and stop calling me insane... i'm the only truly sane person here because i'm not afraid of the slime so i don't accept their lies for truth and go on with my life hoping i won't be their next victim... nik. out...
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Excuse me, but why are we continuing with this thread considering how Chaim is against espousing all these conspiracy theories? Can we please just give it a rest?
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Excuse me, but why are we continuing with this thread considering how Chaim is against espousing all these conspiracy theories? Can we please just give it a rest?
Lisa's right.
Besides, the twin towers were made to withstand the impact of a huge jet aircraft but were not made to withstand the immense heat that the fire produced.
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Out of respect for Chaim, I'm locking this thread.