JTF.ORG Forum
Israel => Save Israel => Topic started by: mord on July 16, 2008, 12:52:19 PM
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Shas's crooks never cease to amaze me 'don't show celebration in Beirut'.I think they should show it all, the shas criminal doesn't want to see what a Govt that he sits with did ;D
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/150009
Atias Begs Media to Tone Down Nasrallah Coverage
(IsraelNN.com) Minister of Communications Ariel Atias (Shas) asked the Israeli media Wednesday to reduce the amount of air time it gives to scenes of jubilation in Beirut. "As one who is aware of the media's power and abilities, to create psychological warfare and hurt morale, and despite the ability and important need… of a pluralistic media in a democratic country to broadcast everything, and from everywhere in the world, I turn to you with a request to spare the citizens of Israel, on this difficult day, the harsh sights of the cynical and cruel leader's blood-dance."
"This is not censorship," Atias said. "I am aware that this is up to each newsroom to consider, and all I ask is that you spare the feelings of the people of Israel, who are in pain right now." Atias asked the media to "spare us the scenes of the celebrants because this is an integral part of Hizbullah's warfare."
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I could say a whole library worth of things about Shas, but I don't think it would be appropriate. ;)
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I could say a whole library worth of things about Shas, but I don't think it would be appropriate. ;)
so would i O0
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There is nothing wrong with criticising Shas.
or any jewish movement or political party for that matter. the whole of it or an element of it.
But don't curse rabbi ovadia yosef. No matter how terrible he is. Get the OK from Chaim first before cursing people. As a general rule, we don't curse jews.
That is what has been inappropriate, and has caused problems. Particularly cursing a scholarly rabbi that many consider a Gadol.
( even a scholar that criticised him, said that his sources and breadth of knowledge are brilliant, it's just his conclusions that are all wrong!)
If somebody has smicha, he is a rabbi, it's a factual thing. Not to do with whether you like them or not. That is why reform ministres are not rabbis(and they don't believe in the torah anyway, which would disqualify them. because they don't believe in judaism).
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I did not curse ROY.
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There is nothing wrong with criticising Shas.
or any jewish movement or political party for that matter. the whole of it or an element of it.
But don't curse rabbi ovadia yosef. No matter how terrible he is. Get the OK from Chaim first before cursing people. As a general rule, we don't curse jews.
That is what has been inappropriate, and has caused problems. Particularly cursing a scholarly rabbi that many consider a Gadol.
( even a scholar that criticised him, said that his sources and breadth of knowledge are brilliant, it's just his conclusions that are all wrong!)
If somebody has smicha, he is a rabbi, it's a factual thing. Not to do with whether you like them or not. That is why reform ministres are not rabbis(and they don't believe in the torah anyway, which would disqualify them. because they don't believe in judaism).
Not true. Their are things ANY jew can do to become cut off from the jewish people. Chaim discussed this in the past. I am pretty sure causing jewish death is one of those things. ROY has been involved in every surrender and therefore has his hand in jewish deaths.
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Who's Roy? obadiah
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He is right. At the very least indirectly, ROY is responsible for Jewish deaths.
I will not insult him, but I will state fact.
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The great Sfardic rabbi and spiritual leader of Shas, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef
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Who's Roy? obadiah
Yes, the very well dressed rabbi Obadia.
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What a weakling whore!
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The great Sfardic rabbi and spiritual leader of Shas, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef
I prefer if we call him "OY." The extra R at the beginning is unnecessary. It's debatable of he is still deserving of the rabbinate.
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I agree with you, DownwithIslam, but I don't want to start a flamefest.
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Can we call him by his original name http://www.dafina.net/namesofmoroccanjews.htm
Hebraic origin"Obadiah" , Arabic origin"Abdallah"
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I had no idea that "Abdallah" is the Arabic translation of the Hebrew Obadiah.
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I had no idea that "Abdallah" is the Arabic translation of the Hebrew Obadiah.
So his real name would then be Rabbi Abdallah Yussef?
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So his real name would then be Rabbi Abdallah Yussef?
ROTFLMAO :::D
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So his real name would then be Rabbi Abdallah Yussef?
ROTFLMAO :::D
That would be his original; name,BTW do we have to give respect to the rabbis of the neturei karta :o ???
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So his real name would then be Rabbi Abdallah Yussef?
ROTFLMAO :::D
That would be his original; name,BTW do we have to give respect to the rabbis of the neturei karta :o ???
Mord, all your posts are spot on. You don't get enough credit for this. Most people on here are too afraid to criticise Abdallah Yosef aka ROY. For some reason he is untouchable, sort of like talking about a shvartza on CNN. He is worse than Meretz in my opinion because he enables surrenders as they do but he does it claiming to be religious and from the right.
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Yes, that is his real name. ROY is an Arab. (An Arab Jew, but an Arab nonetheless.)
(Not that I am dissing Arab Jews. Chaim is one, after all.)
But--I do recall somewhere that Ovadia Yosef once said that Arafat is a man we can work with. I even seem to recall that he met with and shook hands with Arafat. I am extremely critical of that.
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This is not criticism.
It is a bunch of kids or people behaving like kids, taking the mickey out of rabbi ovadia yosef, making poor jokes about him e.t.c..
So that would ignite things.
You are just idiots.
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We should not forget that even though Smolmert the nazi is up to his neck and up his tuchis in investigations, Shas and ROY are staying steadfast in the govt to enable more jews to be slaughtered. Are you sure he is a jew from an arab country and not just a plain Arab?
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(http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1830397_YisroelDovidWeiss.jpg) (http://www.imagehosting.com) Rabbi Israel Dovid Weiss AKA Rabbi Phillistine Davey White ;D ;D ;D
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He is worse than Meretz in my opinion because he enables surrenders as they do but he does it claiming to be religious and from the right.
DownwithIslam, you have an extremely good point to make. The enemy from "within" is always more dangerous than external threats. Some examples:
--Arabs that propose a "peace process", like the PLO, are far more dangerous than those that speak openly of annihilating the Jews, such as Hamas and Hezbollah.
--Self-hating Jews are far more dangerous than Arabs.
--White leftist enablers of blacks are much more dangerous than the minorities themselves.
Lest anyone think we are only picking on Jewish leaders here, let me give you the example of a major crisis within contemporary Western Christianity. The evil postmodernist ("emergent") movement is gaining ground every day in the church. (The Emergent Church is a cult of Christianity, similar to ancient Gnosticism, that teaches that humans are incapable of figuring out pure facts because they cannot get past their own biases, and for the same reason that ancient Biblical texts [Jewish and Christian] cannot be 100% reliable, and therefore that humans must figure out their own "inner truths".)
There are secular, openly atheistic postmodernists (such as Paul Churchland and Daniel Dennett), who openly detest Christianity and consider it a primitive fairy-tale, and then there are so-called Christian postmodernists such as Brian McLaren and Nancey Murphy, who claim that Christianity and postmodern philosophy are completely compatible and that they are only showing a new aspect of the faith. Needless to say, it is the latter category that the young Christians are falling for in droves. Believers will reject a professing atheist, but will stop to listen to a false teacher claiming to be a Christian.
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taking the mickey out of rabbi ovadia yosef
Mickey?
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(http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1830397_YisroelDovidWeiss.jpg) (http://www.imagehosting.com) Rabbi Israel Dovid Weiss AKA Rabbi Phillistine Davey White ;D ;D ;D
Who knows this N.K. person
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We should not forget that even though Smolmert the nazi is up to his neck and up his tuchis in investigations, Shas and ROY are staying steadfast in the govt to enable more jews to be slaughtered. Are you sure he is a jew from an arab country and not just a plain Arab?
All joking aside, I think it is extremely legitimate to wonder why a Jew so scholarly and so learned in Torah would come to make decisions that have been so destructive to the people of Israel and indeed, his own Sfardim followers. I do not doubt that ROY is extremely intelligent, but his intellect has almost invariably been used to make halachic rulings that have been terrible for the nation of Israel (and disputed by a great many other rabbis). What is his agenda and why is he so enamored of left-wing policies?
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(http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1830397_YisroelDovidWeiss.jpg) (http://www.imagehosting.com) Rabbi Israel Dovid Weiss AKA Rabbi Phillistine Davey White ;D ;D ;D
Who knows this N.K. person
All NK members, of any nation, ought to immediately be exiled to their true holy capital, Riyadh.
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(http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1830397_YisroelDovidWeiss.jpg) (http://www.imagehosting.com) Rabbi Israel Dovid Weiss AKA Rabbi Phillistine Davey White ;D ;D ;D
Who knows this N.K. person
All NK members, of any nation, ought to immediately be exiled to their true holy capital, Riyadh.
True :-\ ;D
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at least neturei karta are honest.
And they don't want to kill jews.
If you had any real criticism for them, then fine. I do too. But all I see is you taking the piss.
Or as we also say in britain , "taking the mickey". I see you have neither of these expressions in america
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss
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at least neturei karta are honest.
And they don't want to kill jews.
If you had any real criticism for them, then fine. I do too. But all I see is you taking the piss.
Or as we also say in britain , "taking the mickey". I see you have neither of these expressions in america
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss
This has been one of the most frightening and disingenuous posts in the history of this forum. If Neturei Karta doesn't want to kill Jews than neither does achmedinajad.
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neturei karta pray for the peaceful dismantlement of the state.
And they do so in front of arabs.
And always say they want it done peacefully.
Ahmedinejad, threatened to wipe israel off the map. (though they don't seem to think he said so).
Neturei Karta stand with arab terrorists, that's the problem.
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And they don't want to kill jews.
Marching for Hezbollah in Tehran and denying the Holocaust while hugging David Duke isn't wanting to kill Jews?
Or as we also say in britain , "taking the mickey". I see you have neither of these expressions in america
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss
Speaking as one who claims to be a very devout Jew, shouldn't you be making aliyah rather than living in the Galut?
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neturei karta pray for the peaceful dismantlement of the state.
I have absolutely nothing to add to this post. Absolutely no need to add anything either.
:)
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And they don't want to kill jews.
Marching for Hezbollah in Tehran and denying the Holocaust while hugging David Duke isn't wanting to kill Jews?
Or as we also say in britain , "taking the mickey". I see you have neither of these expressions in america
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss
Speaking as one who claims to be a very devout Jew, shouldn't you be making aliyah rather than living in the Galut?
They do not deny the holocaust.
(I have heard one neturei karta type guy in one youtube video refer to "so-called holocaust". A weird expression to use, and one that most would not use. They have issues with the word israel, or even - depending on context - the term eretz yisrael. Most of them are ashkenazi and have had relatives die in the holocaust. They don't deny it and are on record many times saying they do not deny it. The idea that they deny it is clearly a fabrication against them. They did attend a holocaust denial conference. So did barry chamish plan to. But he is not a holocaust denier. He just wanted to spread his message. )
If you listened to them in their own words, and I don't think you have the ability to understand different mentalities, it is too intricate, and you lack the philosophically-logical skills to do so, but if you could, then you would not be accusing them of denying the holocaust.
Don't expect that a bunch of people with black hats and beards marching with the enemy, would mean the same thing as a normally dressed person doing it. They have their own ideology. Very very alien to anything you are familiar with. And they have their ideas about how to interact with gentiles.
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Like making apperances on stage in Washington on Shabbos with anti Israel phillistines.Maaris ayin
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Like making apperances on stage in Washington on Shabbos with anti Israel phillistines.Maaris ayin
You are also not a deep thinker. Talking about Maris Ayin
You spent years (was 5 ? 10 ? 15? years?!!!!) in yeshiva, and contribute nothing to torah discussions. By that I mean you don't even participate in them.
Anyhow, from what I understand, Maris Ayin is a permitted action that people might see and then think you are some sin, and then think oh, they can do it.
Making appearances on shabbat is wrong. They are breaking shabbat.
But even if maris ayin applies to breaking a halacha.
Nobody is going to say "oh, well if neturei karta can break shabbat then so can I".
Their ideology of course, they think they are saving life., and so they think it's ok. They are certainly wrong
I don't know what point you are trying to make here.
That they make the sin of maris ayin.
They make the sin of breaking shabbat. What is your point here.
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They do not deny the holocaust.
(I have heard one neturei karta type guy in one youtube video refer to "so-called holocaust". A weird expression to use, and one that most would not use. They have issues with the word israel, or even - depending on context - the term eretz yisrael. Most of them are ashkenazi and have had relatives die in the holocaust. They don't deny it and are on record many times saying they do not deny it. The idea that they deny it is clearly a fabrication against them. They did attend a holocaust denial conference.
;D
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Like making apperances on stage in Washington on Shabbos with anti Israel phillistines.Maaris ayin
You are also not a deep thinker. Talking about Maris Ayin
You spent years (was 5 ? 10 ? 15? years?!!!!) in yeshiva, and contribute nothing to torah discussions. By that I mean you don't even participate in them.
Anyhow, from what I understand, Maris Ayin is a permitted action that people might see and then think you are some sin, and then think oh, they can do it.
Making appearances on shabbat is wrong. They are breaking shabbat.
But even if maris ayin applies to breaking a halacha.
Nobody is going to say "oh, well if neturei karta can break shabbat then so can I".
Their ideology of course, they think they are saving life., and so they think it's ok. They are certainly wrong
I don't know what point you are trying to make here.
That they make the sin of maris ayin.
They make the sin of breaking shabbat. What is your point here.
Ok, you have just made two personal attacks, on both Mord and Chaimfan. It seems like anyone who doesn't support neturei karta is not a thinker in your eyes. Its funny how you looked for anything possible that is negative about aubavitch yet you seek to praise the neuterei karta beasts.
I hope Chaim enforces his zero tolerance of personal attacks. You are clearly not a kahanist.
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DownwithIslam, there is no need for you to come up with a comeback to everything that this poster says.
Everyone can see that he is defending Neturei Karta.
There is absolutely nothing that we can say that will trump his own plain, public words.
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DWI.
I do not support neturei karta in any way.
But I will defend them from certain criticisms that I think are wrong.
I wouldn't say I support or do not support lubavitch, but I have given them a little bit of money. Not because I agree with them, but because I have made use of their services on purim, and , anyhow, I already told you the good things I have a to say about lubavitch, and I hope they continue their great services. You seem to like playing the game of only saying nice things about lubavitch.. And if people don't play your game or disagree with them you get upset and talk nonsense. You have a very simple pathetic mind and attitude. I find it very upsetting to see a jew so lacking in intelligence as you are, because it endangers jewish survival. It makes me feel that we just got lucky with the fact that you are a right winger, and if you pass on your mind to the next generation, they may go to the left just as easily and stupidly as you behave in the right. With such intellectually stagnant thought, we could all end up like lemmings, doing something stupid together and dying.
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q_q, what is there to defend when a group of so-called Jews places flowers on Arafat's grave, or when they go to Iran for Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference? Or how about when they say that Israel should be dismantled?
Also, although you and DownwithIslam don't see eye to eye, he is no lemming whatsoever.
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Shas's crooks never cease to amaze me 'don't show celebration in Beirut'.I think they should show it all, the shas criminal doesn't want to see what a Govt that he sits with did ;D
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/150009
Atias Begs Media to Tone Down Nasrallah Coverage
(IsraelNN.com) Minister of Communications Ariel Atias (Shas) asked the Israeli media Wednesday to reduce the amount of air time it gives to scenes of jubilation in Beirut. "As one who is aware of the media's power and abilities, to create psychological warfare and hurt morale, and despite the ability and important need… of a pluralistic media in a democratic country to broadcast everything, and from everywhere in the world, I turn to you with a request to spare the citizens of Israel, on this difficult day, the harsh sights of the cynical and cruel leader's blood-dance."
"This is not censorship," Atias said. "I am aware that this is up to each newsroom to consider, and all I ask is that you spare the feelings of the people of Israel, who are in pain right now." Atias asked the media to "spare us the scenes of the celebrants because this is an integral part of Hizbullah's warfare."
in defense of this Shas guy...I would simply say that the news should report fact...nothing more. He isn't telling the news what to do and he wants to "spare the feelings of the mourners". Also not to cause trouble within the country if anyone gets angry and start hurting innocent people because of it..i see what he means.
However, on the angle of hiding scenes of what our enemies think and do..that's wrong...we need to know our enemy and how much they hate us..and we shoudl hate our enemies who wish to kill us.
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I did not curse ROY.
you did once, but chaim corrected you and you stopped...same with DWI..
or did i get you two mixed up?
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More than a year ago, I did make an inappropriate poll about Ovadia Yosef. I admit this and have nothing to hide or lie about. Chaim rebuked me and I stopped and have not slandered him since.
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I had no idea that "Abdallah" is the Arabic translation of the Hebrew Obadiah.
Sure it is, but you just have to switch gods.
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q_q, what is there to defend when a group of so-called Jews places flowers on Arafat's grave, or when they go to Iran for Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference? Or how about when they say that Israel should be dismantled?
Also, although you and DownwithIslam don't see eye to eye, he is no lemming whatsoever.
Like making apperances on stage in Washington on Shabbos with anti Israel phillistines.Maaris ayin
You are also not a deep thinker. Talking about Maris Ayin
You spent years (was 5 ? 10 ? 15? years?!!!!) in yeshiva, and contribute nothing to torah discussions. By that I mean you don't even participate in them.
Anyhow, from what I understand, Maris Ayin is a permitted action that people might see and then think you are some sin, and then think oh, they can do it.
Making appearances on shabbat is wrong. They are breaking shabbat.
But even if maris ayin applies to breaking a halacha.
Nobody is going to say "oh, well if neturei karta can break shabbat then so can I".
Their ideology of course, they think they are saving life., and so they think it's ok. They are certainly wrong
I don't know what point you are trying to make here.
That they make the sin of maris ayin.
They make the sin of breaking shabbat. What is your point here.
Lisa, thank you for sticking up for me.
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Sure it is, but you just have to switch gods.
LOL
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q_q, what is there to defend when a group of so-called Jews places flowers on Arafat's grave, or when they go to Iran for Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference? Or how about when they say that Israel should be dismantled?
Also, although you and DownwithIslam don't see eye to eye, he is no lemming whatsoever.
Like making apperances on stage in Washington on Shabbos with anti Israel phillistines.Maaris ayin
You are also not a deep thinker. Talking about Maris Ayin
You spent years (was 5 ? 10 ? 15? years?!!!!) in yeshiva, and contribute nothing to torah discussions. By that I mean you don't even participate in them.
Anyhow, from what I understand, Maris Ayin is a permitted action that people might see and then think you are some sin, and then think oh, they can do it.
Making appearances on shabbat is wrong. They are breaking shabbat.
But even if maris ayin applies to breaking a halacha.
Nobody is going to say "oh, well if neturei karta can break shabbat then so can I".
Their ideology of course, they think they are saving life., and so they think it's ok. They are certainly wrong
I don't know what point you are trying to make here.
That they make the sin of maris ayin.
They make the sin of breaking shabbat. What is your point here.
Lisa, thank you for sticking up for me.
Did you see the post where he makes fun of mord? I have the quote above. From now on, we need to concentrate on the trouble makers such as QQ and not generalize and tell everyone to behave. I am not sure how much more the admins want to put up with. He makes fun of Me, Chaimfan and mord, attacks Chabad while praising the neturei karta. Do we need him to start trying to raise money for hamas right on this very forum?
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DownwithIslam, listen to what I said earlier. We do not need to say another word to him. Indeed, we shouldn't. We need to let his own words stand out loud and clear.
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q_q, what is there to defend when a group of so-called Jews places flowers on Arafat's grave, or when they go to Iran for Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference? Or how about when they say that Israel should be dismantled?
Also, although you and DownwithIslam don't see eye to eye, he is no lemming whatsoever.
OK.. Although this is in a thread. I write this for you, or for those I have had intelligent discussions with. Ad not for those whome I know this is too deep for.
If somebody says that neturei karta want to kill jews. Then I would defend them against that criticism.
They are very straight forward and honest, and they have explained what they do , one can listen to them in their own words on youtube or google video. And Rabbi Mayer Schiller has a good analysis of them as well.
They believe that we must not rise up against the nations -ever, and that we should not be ruling over them, and that we are guests in whatever country we are in, and must be on our best behaviour. (not like the american view of being a citizen and knowing your rights).
They don't believe that living as dhimmi, being treated like donkeys even, is bad. They are fine with that. They just purely want to keep the torah. Shabbat, Kashrut, as long as they can do that, they are happy. And they will honour whoever is ruling over them. As they pray for moshiach to come.
I aspoke to a neturei karta guy, and in a very honest conversation he came up with a statement that he wouldn't have said to most people, because he they wouldn't get it. But he could see that I got it. And I understood. When he was telling me how great things were living under the arabs, he said "We were their donkeys, they needed us, they would not have hurt us".
It is incredible how it is the inverse of kahanism.. Rabbi Kahane taught based on Ezekiel chapter 36, that jewish strength is a kiddush hashem, and jewish weakness is a chillul hashem.
Rabbi Kahane did criticise neturei kartar for standing with the enemy. But that is something else.
Lisa, are you jewish? It is relevant because jews should not teach torah to non-jews.
There is a torah shiur Rav Kahane gave at YU. Where he said. Take a torah position, And if you say we cannot rise up against the nations. Then say so, But that means we can -never- rise up against them. And don't play games, he said. Neturei Karta, and probably satmar too, do take this torah position , infact neturei karta have an article on their site praising a rabbi for telling jews not to rfight a regime, and to die in honour of G-d's name. They believed they were, since they believe they are forbidden to fight back.
Sure, some aspects of neturei karta as very bad. But don't misundestand them. They go to people that they think might have animousity towards jews, and they are good to them and honour them and they actually help the jews living in those countries, they check up on their welfare. They submit to bullies or anybody, asking only that they be allowed to keep the torah, that's all they care about, to keep the torah is their dignity, not civil rights.
Of course this is misunderstood. This concept is totally alien to people. They have an ideology, and most people don't have the capacity to understand it anymore than the left can understand muslims. It's totally alien to them, they cannot relate to it. And they see them standing with enemies and assume that it is just like joe westerner standing with them. They live in a different world.
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DownwithIslam, listen to what I said earlier. We do not need to say another word to him. Indeed, we shouldn't. We need to let his own words stand out loud and clear.
I understand what you are saying Chaimfan but I need to make sure people see whats going on. I don't want anymore generalized statement like "Both CF and QQ should calm down" when their is only one perpetrator and Neturei Kart UK supporter on this forum.
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q_q, what is there to defend when a group of so-called Jews places flowers on Arafat's grave, or when they go to Iran for Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference? Or how about when they say that Israel should be dismantled?
Also, although you and DownwithIslam don't see eye to eye, he is no lemming whatsoever.
OK.. Although this is in a thread. I write this for you, or for those I have had intelligent discussions with. Ad not for those whome I know this is too deep for.
If somebody says that neturei karta want to kill jews. Then I would defend them against that criticism.
They are very straight forward and honest, and they have explained what they do , one can listen to them in their own words on youtube or google video. And Rabbi Mayer Schiller has a good analysis of them as well.
They believe that we must not rise up against the nations -ever, and that we should not be ruling over them, and that we are guests in whatever country we are in, and must be on our best behaviour. (not like the american view of being a citizen and knowing your rights).
They don't believe that living as dhimmi, being treated like donkeys even, is bad. They are fine with that. They just purely want to keep the torah. Shabbat, Kashrut, as long as they can do that, they are happy. And they will honour whoever is ruling over them. As they pray for moshiach to come.
I aspoke to a neturei karta guy, and in a very honest conversation he came up with a statement that he wouldn't have said to most people, because he they wouldn't get it. But he could see that I got it. And I understood. When he was telling me how great things were living under the arabs, he said "We were their donkeys, they needed us, they would not have hurt us".
It is incredible how it is the inverse of kahanism.. Rabbi Kahane taught based on Ezekiel chapter 36, that jewish strength is a kiddush hashem, and jewish weakness is a chillul hashem.
Rabbi Kahane did criticise neturei kartar for standing with the enemy. But that is something else.
Lisa, are you jewish? It is relevant because jews should not teach torah to non-jews.
There is a torah shiur Rav Kahane gave at YU. Where he said. Take a torah position, And if you say we cannot rise up against the nations. Then say so, But that means we can -never- rise up against them. And don't play games, he said. Neturei Karta, and probably satmar too, do take this torah position , infact neturei karta have an article on their site praising a rabbi for telling jews not to rfight a regime, and to die in honour of G-d's name. They believed they were, since they believe they are forbidden to fight back.
Sure, some aspects of neturei karta as very bad. But don't misundestand them. They go to people that they think might have animousity towards jews, and they are good to them and honour them and they actually help the jews living in those countries, they check up on their welfare. They submit to bullies or anybody, asking only that they be allowed to keep the torah, that's all they care about, to keep the torah is their dignity, not civil rights.
Of course this is misunderstood. This concept is totally alien to people. They have an ideology, and most people don't have the capacity to understand it anymore than the left can understand muslims. It's totally alien to them, they cannot relate to it. And they see them standing with enemies and assume that it is just like joe westerner standing with them. They live in a different world.
let me get this correct: NK are pacifists on one extreme and Kahanists are the opposite sort of on the opposite extreme... Just to simplify what you wrote...
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Ok, all I can say is that if he is allowed to continue to post, I won't be able to tell the difference between this forum and the penguins forum. We literally have an in house sheik here.
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at least neturei karta are honest.
And they don't want to kill jews.
If you had any real criticism for them, then fine. I do too. But all I see is you taking the piss.
Or as we also say in britain , "taking the mickey". I see you have neither of these expressions in america
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss
This Neturei Karta group makes promotion in German language on German forums and on their own homepage. They work together with real Nazis and with Achmadinedschad and Prof. Dr. Rahmin.
This is dangerous and gives this beasts moral legitimation.
If they would speak to Jews only I would agree with you. But this allie-policy of them is too much for me. :(
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<snip>
let me get this correct: NK are pacifists on one extreme and Kahanists are the opposite sort of on the opposite extreme... Just to simplify what you wrote...
No. There is good violence and bad violence, and kahanism uses good violence.
Rabbi Kahane said that about good violence and bad violence over and over again, and I agree 100% with almost everything he ever said. The bits that I don't agree 100%, I wish he was here to discuss.
NK are pacifists while living in exile, and we are in exile - no temple(rabbi kahane himself said we are in exile). And I don't agree with their pacifism, but it is a torah position just like satmar is, neturei karta are not out to kill jews.
So please, don't simplify what I wrote, you just make a mess of it.
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We literally have an in house sheik here.
You are right, but people are seeing that by his own words.
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<snip>
let me get this correct: NK are pacifists on one extreme and Kahanists are the opposite sort of on the opposite extreme... Just to simplify what you wrote...
No. There is good violence and bad violence, and kahanism uses good violence.
Rabbi Kahane said that about good violence and bad violence over and over again, and I agree 100% with almost everything he ever said. The bits that I don't agree 100%, I wish he was here to discuss.
NK are pacifists while living in exile, and we are in exile - no temple(rabbi kahane himself said we are in exile). And I don't agree with their pacifism, but it is a torah position just like satmar is, neturei karta are not out to kill jews.
So please, don't simplify what I wrote, you just make a mess of it.
just wanted clarification..but since it annoys you that i do this, I will continue to do it because you annoy me. That last sentence was a complete unnecessary snotty put down. You might be smart and intellectually, but you really need to work on that heart of yours.
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NK are pacifists while living in exile, and we are in exile - no temple(rabbi kahane himself said we are in exile). And I don't agree with their pacifism
You would prefer that they actually shoot and blow up fellow Jews?
but it is a torah position just like satmar is, neturei karta are not out to kill jews.
It's a Torah position to march with Nazis, deny the Holocaust, and demand the destruction of Israel?
Really?
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It's a Torah position to march with Nazis, deny the Holocaust, and demand the destruction of Israel?
Really?
OUT OF CONTEXT
You didn't quote what I refered to by "It's"
I will not put the sentence of context in there for you. People can see what I wrote and see the surrounding sentences. Or better, read the whole thing.
Whether you did it intentionally or not I do not care. You are unsuited to any discussion.
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Another thing you snipped. I was very particular in what I wrote, at the top of it, I said it is not addressed to those I have said are not deep thinkers and will not grasp it. One can debate a collection of all the people I refer to in that set, it's good if it puts off silly people from responding. But it certainly refers you(CF) and DWI, as has been clear from my recent posts, which you have read.
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Gat zal der helfen
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You are unsuited to any discussion.
If we have such little minds over here, why do you post at this idiot forum in the first place?
I'm sure that there are many NK forums around the internet that would be glad to have you.
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Gat zal der helfen
Why do you keep going back to this? If this forum were MLB, q_q would be
(http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20080529/wrigley-top_32510.jpg)
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q_q, of course I'm Jewish. All the JTF admins are Jewish.
So just to make sure I understand you, the Neturei Karta believe in extreme pacifism, extreme dhimmi status of Jews, not fighting back, and sucking up to enemies of the Jewish people in the misguided belief that it will keep Jews safe. Frankly, it sounds to me like the direct opposite of Kahane's philosophy.
In terms of teaching the Torah to non-Jews, I believe it was Maimonides who said that it was acceptable to teach the Torah to Christians since they view it as a sort of valid precursor to their New Testament. Maimonidies actually opposed teaching the Torah to Muslims, since they believe the O.T. and N.T. were corrupted by Christians and Jews, and that their Koran is the uncorrupted truth. Are you implying, q_q, that Maimonides was wrong?
Finally, I just want to share a story with everyone.
A few years ago, I worked for a fledgling dot com. I had several managers, who came and left. The smartest one was also the most humble, whereas the dumbest one, would respond to questions by saying to me "If you can't understand it, it's not something I can explain to you." Suffice it to say this manager was FIRED for incompetence.
On the other hand the humble manager had an undergraduate and an MBA from Harvard. Never ONCE, did he say to me "If you can't understand this, it's not something I can explain to you." He would patiently and clearly explain whatever it was I asked him about. One time, doing some work on a Sunday, and decided to email him with a question. I assumed he would get back to me the next day. But I was wrong. He responded to my email in 20 minutes.
Make of my story whatever you will.
But getting back to the N.K. people, defending them here would be like me going to Phylis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, and posting about how badly I feel when they bash Gloria Steinem.
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In terms of teaching the Torah to non-Jews, I believe it was Maimonides who said that it was acceptable to teach the Torah to Christians since they view it as a sort of valid precursor to their New Testament. Maimonidies actually opposed teaching the Torah to Muslims, since they believe the O.T. and N.T. were corrupted by Christians and Jews, and that their Koran is the uncorrupted truth. Are you implying, q_q, that Maimonides was wrong?
I would bet $20 with you that Rambam did not say that, ever. I will give you 1 month, and if you provide the source I will give you $20, and if not then you will give me, fine?
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q_q, of course I'm Jewish. All the JTF admins are Jewish.
So just to make sure I understand you, the Neturei Karta believe in extreme pacifism, extreme dhimmi status of Jews, not fighting back, and sucking up to enemies of the Jewish people in the misguided belief that it will keep Jews safe. Frankly, it sounds to me like the direct opposite of Kahane's philosophy.
In terms of teaching the Torah to non-Jews, I believe it was Maimonides who said that it was acceptable to teach the Torah to Christians since they view it as a sort of valid precursor to their New Testament. Maimonidies actually opposed teaching the Torah to Muslims, since they believe the O.T. and N.T. were corrupted by Christians and Jews, and that their Koran is the uncorrupted truth. Are you implying, q_q, that Maimonides was wrong?
Finally, I just want to share a story with everyone.
A few years ago, I worked for a fledgling dot com. I had several managers, who came and left. The smartest one was also the most humble, whereas the dumbest one, would respond to questions by saying to me "If you can't understand it, it's not something I can explain to you." Suffice it to say this manager was FIRED for incompetence.
On the other hand the humble manager had an undergraduate and an MBA from Harvard. Never ONCE, did he say to me "If you can't understand this, it's not something I can explain to you." He would patiently and clearly explain whatever it was I asked him about. One time, doing some work on a Sunday, and decided to email him with a question. I assumed he would get back to me the next day. But I was wrong. He responded to my email in 20 minutes.
Make of my story whatever you will.
But getting back to the N.K. people, defending them here would be like me going to Phylis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, and posting about how badly I feel when they bash Gloria Steinem.
Bravo post! O0
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In terms of teaching the Torah to non-Jews, I believe it was Maimonides who said that it was acceptable to teach the Torah to Christians since they view it as a sort of valid precursor to their New Testament. Maimonidies actually opposed teaching the Torah to Muslims, since they believe the O.T. and N.T. were corrupted by Christians and Jews, and that their Koran is the uncorrupted truth. Are you implying, q_q, that Maimonides was wrong?
I would bet $20 with you that Rambam did not say that, ever. I will give you 1 month, and if you provide the source I will give you $20, and if not then you will give me, fine?
if you have $20 to give, donate it to a tzedaka and not make silly bets.
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Teshuvot ha-Rambam 1, ed. J. Blau (Jerusalem, 1960), no. 149, pp. 284f.
It is permitted (muttar) to teach the com-mandments to Christians (notsrim) and draw them to our law (datenu). But it is not permitted to teach anything from it to Muslims (yisma’elim) because it is known to you about their belief that this Torah [of ours] is not from God ... and if one can convince the Christians of the correct interpretation [of Scripture], it is possible (efshar) that they might return to what is good (she-yahzoru la-mutav).15
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I do recall there being something about an opinion that it's OK to teach tenach to christians. But not to muslims. Because at least they believe in the bible.
That's tenach. Not Oral Torah. Not talmud.
And that's a very lenient opinion. I don't know whether that is of Maimonides or not (note the spelling of Maimonides)
Maimonides did refer to people of certain mindsets or opinions as fools and ignoramouses.
And further, regarding your story. It's not such a good analogy, since I am explaining things to you. Not refusing at all. The problem here is not lack of explanation, believe me. I can explain anything I understand, to anybody. The problem is, as I described.
when I was talking about rabbi kahane's YU shiur, and neturei karta, it touches on talmud.
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True. You did explain it to me politely enough. But you haven't always been that way with Dr. Dan, DownwithIslam and C.F.
Now I realize you might find DownwithIslam's language off-putting and that's your prerogative. But none of them are stupid. You could say, "I don't appreciate your language," and ask them to rephrase their posts. I always tell people here to focus on facts, rather than using epithets, when discussing R.O.Y. I guess it's obvious that no-one listens to me.
Otherwise, you said in your earlier post that it is forbidden to teach Torah to gentiles. You didn't specify that you meant the Oral Law.
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Lisa, I did not ever diss ROY.
ALL that I said, that set q_q off, was that I had a whole lot that I could say about Shas but would not for the sake of appropriateness, in response to Mord's OP.
He kind of went crazy after that--this unfortunately not being the first time.
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Teshuvot ha-Rambam 1, ed. J. Blau (Jerusalem, 1960), no. 149, pp. 284f.
It is permitted (muttar) to teach the com-mandments to Christians (notsrim) and draw them to our law (datenu). But it is not permitted to teach anything from it to Muslims (yisma’elim) because it is known to you about their belief that this Torah [of ours] is not from G-d ... and if one can convince the Christians of the correct interpretation [of Scripture], it is possible (efshar) that they might return to what is good (she-yahzoru la-mutav).15
Ouch. Looks like someone (or a couple somebodys in this case) got told ;)...
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Lisa I was thinking of the whole Torah (which is both Oral and Written together, as our sages say that the Written Torah cant be understood and learned without the Oral Torah), but whatever, if you want the $20, I have no problem giving it. If you want come to this event http://torahanytime.com/event.php?p=1 on Monday, and I will give it to you their.
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Lisa I was thinking of the whole Torah (which is both Oral and Written together, as our sages say that the Written Torah cant be understood and learned without the Oral Torah), but whatever, if you want the $20, I have no problem giving it. If you want come to this event http://torahanytime.com/event.php?p=1 on Monday, and I will give it to you their.
I don't think she is holding her breath that you will be making good on it anytime soon.
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q_q, of course I'm Jewish. All the JTF admins are Jewish.
So just to make sure I understand you, the Neturei Karta believe in extreme pacifism, extreme dhimmi status of Jews, not fighting back, and sucking up to enemies of the Jewish people in the misguided belief that it will keep Jews safe. Frankly, it sounds to me like the direct opposite of Kahane's philosophy.
<snip>
But getting back to the N.K. people, defending them here would be like me going to Phylis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, and posting about how badly I feel when they bash Gloria Steinem.
I do not defend or attack anybody or groups in some generic mode, like a defence lawyer.
I defended them from a particular criticism.
They were being accused of being holocaust deniers and wanting to kill jews.
It's completely false. I argued against criticism.
I have criticised them on exactly the same point that rabbi kahane did, which is that they stand with our enemies.
Their basic philosophy, is the same as satmar. And just as rabbi kahane said many times that satmar have a valid torah position, and that if one wants to follow the satmar rav, then follow the satmar rav.
So similarly, one can defend this basic philosophy, from an attack that it is "not judaism" or something of that sort.
Thus my position is here is entirely that of Rabbi Meir Kahane ZTL HYD.
And this point about satmar has been pointed out many times, by myself, and tzvi also. That Rabbi Kahane recognised their position as a torah position. Rabbi Kahane's material is online - audio and video, and some of it is to a religious jewish audience. (it's not all talk shows). And I would suggest that any religious jew on a kahanist forum make themselves familiar with it.
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q_q, of course I'm Jewish. All the JTF admins are Jewish.
So just to make sure I understand you, the Neturei Karta believe in extreme pacifism, extreme dhimmi status of Jews, not fighting back, and sucking up to enemies of the Jewish people in the misguided belief that it will keep Jews safe. Frankly, it sounds to me like the direct opposite of Kahane's philosophy.
<snip>
But getting back to the N.K. people, defending them here would be like me going to Phylis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, and posting about how badly I feel when they bash Gloria Steinem.
And I would suggest that any religious jew on a kahanist forum make themselves familiar with it.
Definitly, every Jew (who at the very least calls himself a Kahanist) should read and own "Or Harayon" - both volumes.
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Thus my position is here is entirely that of Rabbi Meir Kahane ZTL HYD.
And this point about satmar has been pointed out many times, by myself, and tzvi also. That Rabbi Kahane recognised their position as a torah position. Rabbi Kahane's material is online - audio and video, and some of it is to a religious jewish audience. (it's not all talk shows). And I would suggest that any religious jew on a kahanist forum make themselves familiar with it.
I would like very much to hear what Chaim has to say about your claims of HaRav Kahane defending the Satmar "rabbi".
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Lisa I was thinking of the whole Torah (which is both Oral and Written together, as our sages say that the Written Torah cant be understood and learned without the Oral Torah), but whatever, if you want the $20, I have no problem giving it. If you want come to this event http://torahanytime.com/event.php?p=1 on Monday, and I will give it to you their.
I don't think she is holding her breath that you will be making good on it anytime soon.
Their is your problem. You dont think for yourself and always think for others, and what others think and believe!
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Thus my position is here is entirely that of Rabbi Meir Kahane ZTL HYD.
And this point about satmar has been pointed out many times, by myself, and tzvi also. That Rabbi Kahane recognised their position as a torah position. Rabbi Kahane's material is online - audio and video, and some of it is to a religious jewish audience. (it's not all talk shows). And I would suggest that any religious jew on a kahanist forum make themselves familiar with it.
I would like very much to hear what Chaim has to say about your claims of HaRav Kahane defending the Satmar "rabbi".
lol Rav Kahane directly has said so himself, so why ask any other person if the proof is from the Rav's own lips and own writing?
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Lisa I was thinking of the whole Torah (which is both Oral and Written together, as our sages say that the Written Torah cant be understood and learned without the Oral Torah), but whatever, if you want the $20, I have no problem giving it. If you want come to this event http://torahanytime.com/event.php?p=1 on Monday, and I will give it to you their.
You must be the most annoying kiruv maniac I have ever seen..
But I must say, the quality of your posts have improved tremendously over the year, I agree with you more than almost anybody else.. I'm sure in another year you'll be even better. Your knowledge and wisdom improves with time, like good wine!
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Thus my position is here is entirely that of Rabbi Meir Kahane ZTL HYD.
And this point about satmar has been pointed out many times, by myself, and tzvi also. That Rabbi Kahane recognised their position as a torah position. Rabbi Kahane's material is online - audio and video, and some of it is to a religious jewish audience. (it's not all talk shows). And I would suggest that any religious jew on a kahanist forum make themselves familiar with it.
I would like very much to hear what Chaim has to say about your claims of HaRav Kahane defending the Satmar "rabbi".
I didn't use that expression that he "defended him". Certainly he differed with him on core issues.
Don't address me. My posts here are written for many but specifically not for you, for reasons I have already mentioned. The only time I am addressing you might be if I quote you, and even then it's unlikely that I am addressing you.
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True. You did explain it to me politely enough. But you haven't always been that way with Dr. Dan, DownwithIslam and C.F.
Now I realize you might find DownwithIslam's language off-putting and that's your prerogative. But none of them are stupid. You could say, "I don't appreciate your language," and ask them to rephrase their posts. I always tell people here to focus on facts, rather than using epithets, when discussing R.O.Y. I guess it's obvious that no-one listens to me.
Otherwise, you said in your earlier post that it is forbidden to teach Torah to gentiles. You didn't specify that you meant the Oral Law.
Lisa, I appreciate you defending me and you are indeed owed 20 dollars. I would suggest you set up a paypal account and have him forward the money over to you. You will make it easier for him to keep his word as I wouldn't expect you to go to brooklyn or queens to the shiur.
Lisa, I should also point out that it is not my language which is most offensive. I never ever initiate personal attacks on anyone. That cant be said of some others here who think that only they are talmudic experts.
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Tzvi, thank you, but you don't have to pay me anything. Save the money. Or give it to a charity of your choice if you like. Or buy yourself something with it.
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Tzvi, thank you, but you don't have to pay me anything. Save the money. Or give it to a charity of your choice if you like. Or buy yourself something with it.
Lisa, I suggest you take the money. If someone publicly makes a bet in a haughty way, they should be responsible for the outcome. In this case, you clearly had a source to back up your claim.
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I defended them from a particular criticism.
They were being accused of being holocaust deniers and wanting to kill jews.
So q_q, if they're not holocaust deniers, what were they doing at Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial conference? And while they're not going out their shooting other Jews dead with machine guns, the N.K's are certainly conferring moral legitimacy on holocaust deniers by going to their events.
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Especially in light of the fact that certain people on this forum think that they know kol hatorah kula and nobody else knows anything. Lisa, you proved your detractors wrong.
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I defended them from a particular criticism.
They were being accused of being holocaust deniers and wanting to kill jews.
So q_q, if they're not holocaust deniers, what were they doing at Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial conference? And while they're not going out their shooting other Jews dead with machine guns, the N.K's are certainly conferring moral legitimacy on holocaust deniers by going to their events.
Lisa, I doubt your Jewish enough for him to acknowledge you as a human being. I hate the holier than thou attitude of some here.
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Lisa, I suggest you take the money. If someone publicly makes a bet in a haughty way, they should be responsible for the outcome. In this case, you clearly had a source to back up your claim.
No I won't take his money. But I will insist that Tzvi and q_q be more patient and humble when dealing with their fellow JTF'ers.
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Lisa, I suggest you take the money. If someone publicly makes a bet in a haughty way, they should be responsible for the outcome. In this case, you clearly had a source to back up your claim.
No I won't take his money. But I will insist that Tzvi and q_q be more patient and humble when dealing with their fellow JTF'ers.
At least he should donate that money to JTF. That would be a fair compromise. Obviously I can't tell him to do so but you can. He owes you the money so if you won't take it, have him donate it to jtf in your name.
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I defended them from a particular criticism.
They were being accused of being holocaust deniers and wanting to kill jews.
So q_q, if they're not holocaust deniers, what were they doing at Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial conference? And while they're not going out their shooting other Jews dead with machine guns, the N.K's are certainly conferring moral legitimacy on holocaust deniers by going to their events.
Barry Chamish planned on going to a holocaust denier event. He was billed as a "holocaust believer".
He was basically there to spread his message and sell his books.
I am not defending that, but don't say he is a holocaust denier. (and don't quote daniel pipes!)
You still haven't understood this very clear point. I am not defending them going to the holocaust denial conference. I am saying they are not holocaust deniers.
I have already told you, I am not generically defending them like their defence lawyer. I defended them against very specific criticisms. As mentioned.
I am not defending them going to the holocaust denial conference.
this is not rocket science
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I would rather not beat him over the head with it, just as I don't like it when others beat each other over the head here.
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I defended them from a particular criticism.
They were being accused of being holocaust deniers and wanting to kill jews.
So q_q, if they're not holocaust deniers, what were they doing at Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial conference? And while they're not going out their shooting other Jews dead with machine guns, the N.K's are certainly conferring moral legitimacy on holocaust deniers by going to their events.
Barry Chamish planned on going to a holocaust denier event. He was billed as a "holocaust believer".
He was basically there to spread his message and sell his books.
I am not defending that, but don't say he is a holocaust denier. (and don't quote daniel pipes!)
You still haven't understood this very clear point. I am not defending them going to the holocaust denial conference. I am saying they are not holocaust deniers.
I have already told you, I am not generically defending them like their defence lawyer. I defended them against very specific criticisms. As mentioned.
I am not defending them going to the holocaust denial conference.
this is not rocket science
Ok we undestand, you are saying that they are not Holocaut deniers. But the facts prove otherwise. If they went to an event which was there solely to prove the holocaust never happened, how can you say they are not holocaust deniers. This is completely talking out of two sides of your mouth.
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You still haven't understood this very clear point. I am not defending them going to the holocaust denial conference. I am saying they are not holocaust deniers.
I have already told you, I am not generically defending them like their defence lawyer. I defended them against very specific criticisms. As mentioned.
I am not defending them going to the holocaust denial conference.
this is not rocket science
Ah, but you still haven't answered the very simple question I asked you. If the N.K. are not holocaust deniers, what were they doing at the holocaust denial conference in Iran? It's not, as you say "rocket science."
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Lisa, maybe he is writing up a long answer about how we are ignorant in torah and why mord is "Also not a deep thinker."
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Lisa, maybe he is writing up a long answer about how we are ignorant in torah and why mord is "Also not a deep thinker."
:::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
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I think their is something else worth pointing out. Groups like Chabad always look to find the good in every jew. It is worth mentioning that the people who we have seen attack other jews on this forum are also anti Chabad. The funny thing is that one of them did try to find "the good" in one group, but it happened to be the neturei karta. He actually tried to defend the neturei karta but he didn't extend the same courtesy to chabad.
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I think their is something else worth pointing out. Groups like Chabad always look to find the good in every jew. It is worth mentioning that the people who we have seen attack other jews on this forum are also anti Chabad. The funny thing is that one of them did try to find "the good" in one group, but it happened to be the neturei karta. He actually tried to defend the neturei karta but he didn't extend the same courtesy to chabad.
I see where you are going with this, DWI...
When one is kind to the cruel, they eventually become merciless to the kind...
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I think their is something else worth pointing out. Groups like Chabad always look to find the good in every jew. It is worth mentioning that the people who we have seen attack other jews on this forum are also anti Chabad. The funny thing is that one of them did try to find "the good" in one group, but it happened to be the neturei karta. He actually tried to defend the neturei karta but he didn't extend the same courtesy to chabad.
I see where you are going with this, DWI...
When one is kind to the cruel, they eventually become merciless to the kind...
You took the words right out of my mouth. That is exactly what I meant.
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You still haven't understood this very clear point. I am not defending them going to the holocaust denial conference. I am saying they are not holocaust deniers.
I have already told you, I am not generically defending them like their defence lawyer. I defended them against very specific criticisms. As mentioned.
I am not defending them going to the holocaust denial conference.
this is not rocket science
Ah, but you still haven't answered the very simple question I asked you. If the N.K. are not holocaust deniers, what were they doing at the holocaust denial conference in Iran? It's not, as you say "rocket science."
The answer is that they are there to spread their message. That's what they do. That's all they do! It gets publicity for their message.
The Barry Chamish example I gave earler to answer your conundrum, was quite appropriate.
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Lisa, you won this bet fair and square. The know-it-all made a mule out of himself and he ate crow (and I doubt that it was kosher crow).
You better insist that the loser of the bet pay up.
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The answer is that they are there to spread their message. That's what they do. That's all they do! It gets publicity for their message.
Ah, so you are telling me that they were there in order to convince the Muzzies and neo-Nazis who sponsored it of why they should hate Israel and work for its destruction.
Okay! ;)
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I think their is something else worth pointing out. Groups like Chabad always look to find the good in every jew. It is worth mentioning that the people who we have seen attack other jews on this forum are also anti Chabad. The funny thing is that one of them did try to find "the good" in one group, but it happened to be the neturei karta. He actually tried to defend the neturei karta but he didn't extend the same courtesy to chabad.
q_q flies into a rage whenever anybody denies that the Satmar "rebbe" is the messiah.
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Lisa, you won this bet fair and square. The know-it-all made a mule out of himself and he ate crow (and I doubt that it was kosher crow).
You better insist that the loser of the bet pay up.
just one correction here...and Torah knowledgable Jews here, correct me if I'm wrong....kosher Crow is just as kosher as Kosher pig...
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Rabbi Meir Kahane never spoke in such a way about the NK.
When questioned directly about their anti-Zionist stance, he said that he was unable to question their Torah, but that he disagreed with them.
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just one correction here...and Torah knowledgable Jews here, correct me if I'm wrong....kosher Crow is just as kosher as Kosher pig...
Yes, I know. It was admittedly me being a smart burro.
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BTW, Chaim, where can I buy kosher crow in Los Angeles? :::D
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On the major Israeli newpapers this morning, I and all my co-commuters were treated to a side by side picture collage.
One of crying families of the soldiers and next to it, one of Samir kuntar doing the nazi salute in Lebanon.
And no one on the bus even spoke about it. The country is braindead. Literally.
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On the major Israeli newpapers this morning, I and all my co-commuters were treated to a side by side picture collage.
One of crying families of the soldiers and next to it, one of Samir kuntar doing the nazi salute in Lebanon.
And no one on the bus even spoke about it. The country is braindead. Literally.
That is indeed nuts. It shows the mentality of people who would be dumb enough to reelect kadima if their were another election. Can you imagine that a poll in Israel which was taken like a month ago and published in all the papers showed that kadima would be reelected if their were another election then.
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It seems like the spirit of the Israeli people for the most part of broken. They just don't care any more.
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It seems like the spirit of the Israeli people for the most part of broken. They just don't care any more.
A friend of mine lives in Ashkelon, a city that is continually being rocketed by Hamas and Fatah.
I told him that the army should fight back and he said "Well, we need to be wary of another war."
And this guy is under DIRECT ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!
This is insane. We need Chaim here right now.
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It seems like the spirit of the Israeli people for the most part of broken. They just don't care any more.
A friend of mine lives in Ashkelon, a city that is continually being rocketed by Hamas and Fatah.
I told him that the army should fight back and he said "Well, we need to be wary of another war."
And this guy is under DIRECT ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!
This is insane. We need Chaim here right now.
I agree with that. We need Chaim to go there and create a situation in which people will get tired trying to count the dead muslims.
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It seems like the spirit of the Israeli people for the most part of broken. They just don't care any more.
A friend of mine lives in Ashkelon, a city that is continually being rocketed by Hamas and Fatah.
I told him that the army should fight back and he said "Well, we need to be wary of another war."
And this guy is under DIRECT ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!
This is insane. We need Chaim here right now.
By the way, I liked the way you defended JTF over at the puppy mill when they started calling JTF racist. You gave them a good answer and deserve credit for it.
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Rabbi Meir Kahane never spoke in such a way about the NK.
I don't know what you mean by "such a way", whether you are referring to what I have said, or what Tzvi has said, or what the silly kid-minds have said.
Try quoting people next time.
When questioned directly about their anti-Zionist stance, he said that he was unable to question their Torah, but that he disagreed with them.
I doubt that he said that. It would have created too much confusion.
He criticised NK and considered them illegitimate relative to Torah standards.
And he said what you said he said - about satmar. But not quite..
He has said he disagreed with the Satmar. But of course he questions their position. The point is though that he acknowledged it as a Torah position, and can state his differences.
He has said he differs with them. And he his whole ideology questions them. Chanukah, his points from Ezekiel 36.
<snip>
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On the major Israeli newpapers this morning, I and all my co-commuters were treated to a side by side picture collage.
One of crying families of the soldiers and next to it, one of Samir kuntar doing the nazi salute in Lebanon.
And no one on the bus even spoke about it. The country is braindead. Literally.
That's what I said and got everyone mad at me for. :(
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It seems like the spirit of the Israeli people for the most part of broken. They just don't care any more.
A friend of mine lives in Ashkelon, a city that is continually being rocketed by Hamas and Fatah.
I told him that the army should fight back and he said "Well, we need to be wary of another war."
And this guy is under DIRECT ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!
This is insane. We need Chaim here right now.
By the way, I liked the way you defended JTF over at the puppy mill when they started calling JTF racist. You gave them a good answer and deserve credit for it.
Those people there are such losers.
They are just a vessel for JTF rejects.
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Rabbi Meir Kahane never spoke in such a way about the NK.
I don't know what you mean by "such a way", whether you are referring to what I have said, or what Tzvi has said, or what the silly kid-minds have said.
Try quoting people next time.
When questioned directly about their anti-Zionist stance, he said that he was unable to question their Torah, but that he disagreed with them.
I doubt that he said that. It would have created too much confusion.
He criticised NK and considered them illegitimate relative to Torah standards.
And he said what you said he said - about satmar. But not quite..
He has said he disagreed with the Satmar. But of course he questions their position. The point is though that he acknowledged it as a Torah position, and can state his differences.
He has said he differs with them. And he his whole ideology questions them. Chanukah, his points from Ezekiel 36.
<snip>
The difference between Satmar and Rav Kahane is a time difference, its a question of which time is the nation living in, Rav Kahane believes that it is Atchalta DeGeula, and Satmar believes it is completly Galut, so from that difference everything else is derived.
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He has said he disagreed with the Satmar. But of course he questions their position. The point is though that he acknowledged it as a Torah position, and can state his differences.
He has said he differs with them. And he his whole ideology questions them. Chanukah, his points from Ezekiel 36.
<snip>
The difference between Satmar and Rav Kahane is a time difference, its a question of which time is the nation living in, Rav Kahane believes that it is Atchalta DeGeula, and Satmar believes it is completly Galut, so from that difference everything else is derived.
At first read, that sounds like the most stupid ignorant thing I have read all year.
At second read, it's still wrong.
I will go into more detail, time permitting.
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At first read, that sounds like the most stupid ignorant thing I have read all year.
At second read, it's still wrong.
I will go into more detail, time permitting.
That was totally uncalled for.
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First of all Tzvi.
What you wrote was easily open to misinterpetation.
If misinterpreted, you sound very silly.
I did say that on the second read it is wrong. My implication is that the correct reading , which I got on the second reading , is not stupid.
I know my concise wording in the previous post went over some heads.
That might explain it a bit, to reasonably good thinkers.
I was saying that on the second reading, it wasn't stupid. Just wrong.
Anyhow..
My first read, When you talk about a time difference, it looked like you meant real time.
Indeed. Satmar lived somewhat earler than rabbi kahane.
Rabbi Meir Kahane was 10 years old living in the time of the holocaust, and he knew what was going on even at that age.
At the same time as Rabbi Meir Kahane was 10 years old, living in America, unable to do anything - at only 10, unable to lead people to protest outside the white house until they bombed the rail lines to save thousands daily and at least damage the nazi death plans somewhat.
Rabbi Yissachar Shlomo Teichtal was hiding in a basement witnessing the horrors, unable to do anything. Still, totally opposing the satmar position. Wishing that they would go to israel.
So this idea that if rabbi kahane would have lived in the time of the satmar, he would have been a satmar. That is ridiculous. I don't tihnk you meant that, but it looked a bit like that on first read.
On second read.
It's not stupid, but as I said, it's still wrong.
You put it down to purely a technical difference about whether we are in the beginning of the redemption or not.
I don't think that the case either. But that's not such a silly point.
Consider.
Lots of cases BEFORE the recent "beginning of redemption"
where we faught.
so there is more to it than that.
If you are looking for a theological reason, then the 3 oaths is really the thing to look at.
And Rabbi Kahane himself made this clear.
Rabbi Kahane would have been willing for jews to fight even before the time he thougt was "beginning of the redemption".
Do you really think that if jews were being attacked in some earlier century, that rabbi kahane would have been like the satmar rebbe?!
No.
The 3 oaths are the theological thing that creates the big difference we see, the satmar passivism.
NOW you have a better argument.
That the reason is theological, and that it is based on the 3 oaths.
But I still think that may be wrong.. Certainly not stupid. But just possibly somewhat wrong...
I reckon there have always been some jews that wanted to fight, and some that wanted to remain passive. And rabbis give their theological reasons. Throughout jewish history. judeanoncapta mentioned about that in one of his shows.
Also. To say it's just a difference in time, is missing out a whole psychological aspect.
Rabbi Kahane was the product of brooklyn, he loved winning. And looked at tenach and saw winners.
The Satmar Rebbe would probably look throughout jewish history, and make everything passive.
We do have the pshat which is often quite violent, and then we do have these passive midrashim or traditions, and it is quite suspicious. Suddenly these passive interpretations start cropping up in aggadic or kabbalistic traditions.
The pshat says Moshe beat the egyptian. An aggadic tradition says he killed him with the divine name.
The RAMBAM using rabbi akiva as an example, talks of how when we see somebody fighting the wars of G-d , and presume he is the messiah.. And so on.
And clearly this means war. But in exile all these mystical/kabbalistic ideas pop up that we wait and will be magically transported under underground tunnels. And the 3rd temple will drop ot of the sky on top of the mosque. This is what non zionist rabbis are teaching, we have these passive aggadic and kabbalistic traditions. And it's suspicious.
I think that judeanoncapta is probably right , that many of the aggadic ones were made up in order to modify the behaviour of the people of the time. So they were under a bad regime, and they were told that to prevent more jews dying in a failed rebellion/revolt.
Look at how you and rabbis nowadays play psychological games. You even told Lisa that if she comes to your rabbi's shiur, she can have $20. This is what rabbis do nowadays. They play self help guru and play psychological games, and it works, because people are stupid.
You cannot discount the psychological aspect. And the truth is that religious jews nowadays hold rabbis in such high esteem, that they would never suspect them of doing this. And even when they know they are, they let them off and do not criticise.
I was speaking to somebody whose rosh yeshiva went to speak in a high school (in britain we call them secondary schools). And he said "if you don't go to yeshiva, you are not really jewish". It had an impact, many went. Even though they knew the guy was only saying that to encourage them to go, and he wasn't being "literal". They were educated kids. They just have so much respect for rabbis that they allow it and think nothing of it.
Believe me. I would LOVE to say that it is purely about logic. And 2 theological disagreements, and one goes one way, the other the other way.
But it's just not the case. You have some very knowledgeable rabbis, but they have human flaws that affect their judgement. I assure you, that if you put rabbi kahane and the satmar rebbe in a different time, prior to the "beginning of the redemption" they would act differently, one passive and submissive, one that wants to win.
Rabbi Kahane is at least very very honest in that he says the Satmar position is a valid torah position. He refers to the 3 oaths.. The same is not true of the satmar rebbe.
And this is another big difference.
Anti Zionists just do not see religious zionism as kosher.
Sefaradim may be a bit more relaxed about it. REmember..
Anti Zionism is largely a european phenomena. It arose as a reaction to secular zionism , but attacks all zionim. When ashkenazi rabbis want to say something, they don't just go to the halacha, they often go way beyond it adding more and more strict rulings.
Sefaradim are unfortunately going that way..
See this very interesting website
They tend to complain really that their Sefaradi culture is not properly preserved.
But there is this Sefaradi culture I hear of on the web.. sometimes from maimonideans that reject kabbalah. But other times from just Sefaradim, from certain countries.
This is a very PRO Sefaradi anti ashkenazi site. And this is part of the problem with these particular Sefaradim. They whine alot and are unable to pass on the culture they speak of. And they whine about that too. Nevertheless.. It shows an interesting difference
Notice where the satmar comes from, the charedi
http://blog.sephardicrevival.org/2006/12/24/the-differences.aspx
Sefaradim
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strong emphasis on bible story
realistic approach to halacha and community life
golden path - middle road
rabbis can make mistakes
rabbis do not intervene in every field
comprehensive curriculum
openness to outside culture
acceptance of all congregants
Ashkenazim (note, this guy just doesn't care about ashkenazim or variety within ashkenazi way But the things he lists are relevant to charedim . The modern orthodox are bothered by these things too)
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Bible is marginal except for liturgy
Idealistic approach
Fanaticism
Rabbis are infallible
Daat torah - rabbis decide on everything
Emphasis on talmud
Erection spiritual walls
Labelling individuals
note- listening to rabbi bar hayyim,(I don't listen to him much, but if judea refers me to one or a point in one, then I listen) One does hear him describing situations from a psychological perspective , and it makes sense. It sounds like ridicule.. Maybe they deserve it, or it's just the truth, and if it comes out that way then so be it. But it really hits the nail on the head.
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I read the whole thing, had different things I wanted to say for each part (but it was so long, so I lost my thoughts, and dont want to read again).
- The Rav you mentioned who wrote Ein Habanim Bsimcha- was himself an anti-zionist before the holocaust and at the time of around the Holocaust he changed his views.
- We cant really say what Rav Kahane would have or wouldn't have done if he lived in a different time era. Remember he taught a Jewish head with a Jewish fist. It might have been (and I would suspect that he would say so) that even in Galut Jews should fight back, even with the possibility of being killed- for Kiddush Hashem. OR he could have said no, sometimes its not worth it, and just lay low, as the Satmar believe and believed- Lay low, pray, learn Torah, have kids and one day the nation will be redemed, and until then just make Tishuva so that G-d will send the Geula.
Also remember that Rav Kahane ZTL HYD, assumed and took the state to be the start of the redemption, the Satmar said it's founders were demons and they will only bring more destruction to Jews (both physical and even more soo spiritual). What is the truth- I would say a mixture of both.
Also remember that the "anti-zionists" started even before the "zionist movement", first it was the Haskalah, and their were religious Jews. Then the haskalah subdivided into either the zionist movement and the reform movement. So they were really agains't and fighting the same exact people.
Now their were others. Their were Religious Jews who were going to Israel because of the Mitzva to be in Israel (that always existed), and they were the first to build up the land. and their were others (the followers of Rav Kook ZTL) who saw the good in the Haskalah Jews in doing the Mitzva of building the land, and hoping that they would one day do Tishuva, or that one day the Religious would outnumber them and take over.
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"Also remember that Rav Kahane ZTL HYD, assumed and took the state to be the start of the redemption, the Satmar said it's founders were demons and they will only bring more destruction to Jews (both physical and even more soo spiritual). What is the truth- I would say a mixture of both. "
And I would like to add that after the Rav's murder, his son ZTL HYD, went a step furthur then the Rav and also in a way was both what we would call "Zionistic and anti-zionistic" (more soo then the Rav, by using stronger language and emphasizing more about it).
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pretty much..
I had noticed that about Rabbi Binyamin Kahane's approach.
The disagreement between religious zionism and religious anti zionism is on a theoretical point. But NK (who put the satmar or anti zionist position very well), put it nicely when they say "you can't kosher a pork". So if they don't want to work with it, it makes sense. But they should all agree on the arabs out.
You know recently in britain, there was a pro israel rally.
On a funny note, I read in the charedi jewish press, that the satmar arranged a counter demonstration, but asked the authorities beforehand, for a separate space, away from the arabs, to protest at. The police refused, and said they won't use their resources to allow for that. And the satmar cancelled their counter demonstration. Their statement was, that by doing what they did they have fulfilled their obligation.
By the way.
Try typing your thoughts into notepad.
I can't remember what I ate for breakfast, but if I want to remember something, I write it down.
My opinion would take a write, I may do it in another thread some time . Yours seems similar actually..
In short.. I worry that israel may be the scene of the next holocaust, G-d forbid
Americans living there can get out.
But Israelis are trapped.
I'm not suggesting they get out.. But if they had to, they have nowhere to go.
That was really somewhere in the middle.
here we go.
To start from the beginning..
Rabbi Kahane, and rabbi yissachar shlomo teichtal, saw horrors, and thought the solution was for jews to go to israel.
CRUCIALLY,
Logically. This wasn't precisely the solution
The solution was more general. It was ***to go where it was safe**
That could have been America, it could have been Britain. Israel wasn't so safe, and of course many jews died in the big wars, and in terrorism, and even more in car accidents
note- i'm not saying jews shouldn't go to israel. Because even if it did get that bad. It may still have been right to go. A logical reason to go would be like going into a burning house to try to save people like your family - and jews are a family. Or to save fellow human beings. So that would be one moral reason to go. And please G-d things will be OK and not end in wrath and disaster. Or maybe it is better not to go lest you encourage people. But this note is just a worst case scenario paragraph I threw in.
At the time of the holocaust, Israel was a billion times safer than poland or russia.
And jews going there were saved.
And at the time of the holocaust, you had the anti-zionists, whose mentality besides not going to israel, was CRUCIALLY, specifically also to not leave poland or russia. To not go to america or britain because their great yeshivot and schools are in poland or russia.
And That was wrong.
They died. NOT because they didn't go to israel. But because
a)they didn't go to where it was safe. e.g. America, or somehwere in Europe e.g. Britain. Or somewhere obscure.
b)they blindly stayed where it was dangerous. Not because they didn't wan to go to israel, but because of their yeshivot. They didn't realise that the way things were going, there would be no yeshivot.
But that general mistrake which the anti-zionist jews made during the time of the holocaust.
I fear that Religious zionist jews are making the same mistake. I just hope it doesn't end the same way.
Even the arabs have noticed.. And some years ago a friend said to me that an arab terrorist was quoted in the paper as saying he prefers jews in israel because they are all in one place and are thus easier to kill.
And this is another point
The reason why jews have survived for thousands of years in exile.. Besides G-d. Is a natural reason. We had different communities. Spread across the globe.
The astronishing phenomena, was that Hitler had the success that he had, in gathering millions of jews together and putting us in death camps. Nobody would have expected one man to have so much success in such an endeavour.
Rabbi Kahane worried people when he said "it could happen here" and he argued it. How the germans thought it couldn't happen here too e.t.c. But the fact is that , let's not look a hundreds years into the future. But short term, it isn't happening here. You live in the diaspora keeping your eye on the ball. anti-semitism is monitored... jews are very very paranoid about it. I don't think we are as insular or naiive as anti-zionists in poland or haskala-assimilationists in germany.
Israel is a good defence against another holocaust(now we have our own government and army). I just worry that it may be a prescription for a different kind of holocaust.
NEVERTHELESS. Despite all that.
If jews want to live there..
and they do. And israelis are trapped anyway.
The country has to be defended.
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that's my main thing. below I get a bit messy.
And the population should be inspired to becoming religious.. to earn G-d's protection.
I hope the country doesn't end up in the hands of non zionist rabbis. We need Kahanist rabbis..
Though even then, I worry..
Suppose the arabs get nuclear weapons.
And we have Emunah-trust in G-d, that things will be fine.
Look what happened to rabbi kahane. His emunah was incredible.. His ideas were based on that, as well as logic. But look what happened to him. G-d didn't protect him.
Now, you could argue, well, maybe that is because we didn't deserve him.
Well. you could say that after a nuclear holocaust too. So that isn't very reassuring, and it doesn't work as an argument for having emunah and taking crazy risks.
The great strength in kahanism as it was espoused in his speeches and english books to an american audience anyway, is largely that the secular has no plan whatsoever.
And transfer is the solution.
(or was.. I'm not sure that the internal arab population becomes the majourity is a worry anymore either. Look. When netanyahu in the past few years, cut welfare, which hurt religious jews, but also meant that arabs didn't get a cheque per baby, then the arab birthrate dropped down alot, and the religious jewish birthrate didn't drop much. So nobody is worrying about arabs becoming the majourity anymore).
The paragraph below is sa bit of a mess, but anyhow.
I think that rabbi kahane's arguments are far deeper and well thought out than the brilliant quick ones he gave to journalists. His style on talkshows and press conferences, was to answer people in the shortest way possible. He was able to give a 5 minute answer, or 1 minute answer but he adapted to the formats he was in. I never really saw him questioned much on his torah ideology.. There are about 3 torah shiurim things from him online(YU,YU,kids) , but not organised.
I had bought ohr harayon, but it never arrived. I am learning hebrew properly - largely so that I can read peirush hamaccabee. And, as kahane advised, as is obvious but not done nowadays, read tenach, mishna, that order.. Then I will have a better understanding of kahanism.. I think he was a Gadol, in hashkafa. And he had the mind of a halachic gadol of the highest calibre. But he chose to devote his time to the Israel issue. In a letter to his son baruch (see kahane biography vol 1), he wrote that he would like baruch to be the scholar that he could not be. Rabbi Meir Kahane the scholar, we saw alot of, but they were only glimpses of his true brilliance, which was cut short with his murder.
And so, he could probably answer alot of te issues that I have raised. But I will never know.. Maybe some intelligent person here can!
I know that judeanoncapta has provided the first reasonable answer I have ever seen on the 3 oaths. About it being an aggadic midrash made up to modify the behaviour of the people of the time so they wouldn't rebel against the regime of the time. If it was so specific though , i'm not sure why it was included - in gemara. Maybe the rabbi thought that it applied in exile..
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- Israel is the safest place for Jews, even though in the near future their will be very serious things going on, nevertheless it is much safer for Jews to live in Israel then in Galut.
- Your right, after the destruction, Jews scattered all over the world and it was needed for survival because of all Jews would of been in one place, an anti-semite could of arisen and destroyed us (even though we are given a promise that G-d will nver replace or destroy us, nevertheless the practical things had to be and were done, after the destruction of 2nd Temple and # of failed Rebellions).
- Yes anti-semitism exists, but a Jew should never be paranoid, if something happenes it is because G-d wants it. One should definitly try to prevent tragedy, but everything is in the hands of G-d and it is for the ultimate best.
- It is sad that you dont have Or Harayoon, everything is disgusted their.
- and about the 3 oaths Rav Kahane also addresses it, he says different then Judea. He says that their were the 3 oaths, BUT they were conditional on Israel and the nations. And since the nations violated the oaths, Israel is free from theirs. He also brings examples from Tannach of when their were Oaths and the other party violate them, it then freed Israel from their part. For example King David sending his general to fight Edom and Moav in Aram-Tzova and Aram-Naharia, and they bring the Torah as proof that we cant attack them, King David then goes to Sanhedrin and says that they violated the oath first, so we can attack them, and thats what they did. (also Samson, and much more, I g2g right now, but if you wish I can add more later).
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About Or Harayon, I just looked it up on Amazon.com and it is available
Volume I
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/9657044014/ref=sr_1_olp_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216346679&sr=8-3
Volume II
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/9657044022/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link - Some excerts (I think it is out of stock right now, but at least you can see the chapters in the books and some writings.
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I can google around and am familiar with the main book sites, don't worry. I don't need assistance there.
The reason why I bought ohr harayon and didn't receive it.. I thought i'd be nice and buy it from some religious book store in israel.. They sent me ein habanim smeicha, but not ohr harayon vols 1 and 2, I ask them about ein habanim smeicha and got it eventually, but asked them about ohr harayon and they just didn't respond.
The place I got it from actually had a bad rating, but since it was an israeli one and looked religious, I gave preference to it.
I could have got it from a more reliable place
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The disagreement between religious zionism and religious anti zionism is on a theoretical point. But NK (who put the satmar or anti zionist position very well), put it nicely when they say "you can't kosher a pork".
Being that I believe in reciprocation, I consider Satmarism to be 'kashered pork.'
So if they don't want to work with it, it makes sense. But they should all agree on the arabs out.
They don't agree with that (arabs out), not even close. And why would they according to this logic? You don't seem to have made that point.
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I also think you are mischaracterizing Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Teichtal on the issue of going to Israel. They did not hold that it was the solution because it was 'safe.' Rabbi Kahane did not claim that Israel was safer than America. He did say that America COULD BECOME unsafe, as any place could, if the economy failed or what have you, but in no way was he saying that people are *physically safer in Israel. They were surrounded by arabs. Of course not. But he was saying that spiritually we are safer their as opposed to gentile nations.
And Rabbi Teichtal also did not just say oh wow look at this horror, should have gone to Israel and would have escaped it. I haven't read his work but have seen excerpts and seen others discuss it and he specifically makes a point that the rabbis of Europe REJECTED THE LAND and that this was punishment and that if he hadn't rejected the land and made aliyah instead, he would have been spared. It has specifically about his sin of rejecting the land, not just failing to choose to go to britain or usa or somewhere "safe." And he also admitted to the alterior motives that affected many who were opposed to zionism/aliyah. Implying his own guilt in that regard I think. But explaining that positions of authority and nice wealth, status etc played a role in rabbis' opposition to zionism and staying wherever they were rather than embrace the land of Israel. He wrote that work in some sense to atone for what he felt was a grave sin.... Not mistake but sin. And he thought it was pride and other things that mixed people up to oppose aliyah. This is from what I gathered. It's not a mere calculation of "safety." Truth is, at this point, I don't think Jews are particularly safe anywhere, except maybe america, but like the winds, that could change at any time. All it would take is some muzzies to get brave or economy to get worse and people blame israel etc etc you never know. To be safe *spiritually I'd have to choose Israel.
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The disagreement between religious zionism and religious anti zionism is on a theoretical point. But NK (who put the satmar or anti zionist position very well), put it nicely when they say "you can't kosher a pork".
Being that I believe in reciprocation, I consider Satmarism 'kashered pork.'
So if they don't want to work with it, it makes sense. But they should all agree on the arabs out.
They don't agree with that (arabs out), not even close. And why would they according to this logic? You don't seem to have made that point.
you are right. my mistake in that post you quoted.
Whether one fights back depends on whether if after
Taking the 3 oaths as applicable to us , one allows for self defence.
neturei karta, don't. Their website has an example of dying al kiddush hashem because of the 3 oaths.
The satmar I imagine would agree with NK on that one.
Lubavitch , are non zionist, but pro defending israel. Most of them haven't heard of the 3 oaths, and those that have would all agree with self defence. (and a good lubavitch rabbi I spoke to was pro sovereignty even before we had sovereignty. so somewhat religious zionist in most books, since the core of religious zionism is sovereignty and em masse. And sovereignty even before we had sovereignty).
Agudat Yisroel, it wouldn't suprise me if they allow for self defence too. Every rabbi i've spoken to, does.. Except NK it seems.
Rabbis and jews nowadays have it drilled in that if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first.
Interestingly, after asking some rabbis, I asked a NK guy about that one. He said it's not the halacha at all, the halacha is if somebody comes to kill you, you run away. And if that fails, you try to injure him, and if that fails, then you kill him.
I then asked those rabbis again, and they said "if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first". I told them about the NK guy, and told them he said "run away". They all said the NK guy was right. And only as a last resort you kill him , they agreed 100% with the NK guy as soon as I told them what he said. Funny that.
I did read an article by rabbin binyamin kahane quoting a rashi about a burglar, that you can kill him.
so that would contradict that.
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Interesting.
But if it's an "active pursuer" then does the equation change or was that assuming the 'guy' who came to kill you is that?
Because I thought it was davka a mitzva to kill an active pursuer.
Or is it merely permitted?
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The disagreement between religious zionism and religious anti zionism is on a theoretical point. But NK (who put the satmar or anti zionist position very well), put it nicely when they say "you can't kosher a pork".
Being that I believe in reciprocation, I consider Satmarism 'kashered pork.'
So if they don't want to work with it, it makes sense. But they should all agree on the arabs out.
They don't agree with that (arabs out), not even close. And why would they according to this logic? You don't seem to have made that point.
you are right. my mistake in that post you quoted.
Whether one fights back depends on whether if after
Taking the 3 oaths as applicable to us , one allows for self defence.
neturei karta, don't. Their website has an example of dying al kiddush hashem because of the 3 oaths.
The satmar I imagine would agree with NK on that one.
Lubavitch , are non zionist, but pro defending israel. Most of them haven't heard of the 3 oaths, and those that have would all agree with self defence. (and a good lubavitch rabbi I spoke to was pro sovereignty even before we had sovereignty. so somewhat religious zionist in most books, since the core of religious zionism is sovereignty and em masse. And sovereignty even before we had sovereignty).
Agudat Yisroel, it wouldn't suprise me if they allow for self defence too. Every rabbi i've spoken to, does.. Except NK it seems.
Rabbis and jews nowadays have it drilled in that if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first.
Interestingly, after asking some rabbis, I asked a NK guy about that one. He said it's not the halacha at all, the halacha is if somebody comes to kill you, you run away. And if that fails, you try to injure him, and if that fails, then you kill him.
I then asked those rabbis again, and they said "if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first". I told them about the NK guy, and told them he said "run away". They all said the NK guy was right. And only as a last resort you kill him , they agreed 100% with the NK guy as soon as I told them what he said. Funny that.
I did read an article by rabbin binyamin kahane quoting a rashi about a burglar, that you can kill him.
so that would contradict that.
Stop mentioning the Neturei Karta already. I am sick of hearing about those nazi muslims. Their website is much worse than a porn site.
And Lubavitch are obviously against the evil regime in Israel just as we are, but they are 100% supportive of Israel and that is why they have established themselves there(Kfar Chabad)
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Dwi, he's only explaining their views. They can try to kasher pork all they want but it won't work. At least we can analyze them in the process. and see what's wrong about it, or what's right, if anything, about, and formulate opinions on why their wrong, why we disagree or what have you.
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The disagreement between religious zionism and religious anti zionism is on a theoretical point. But NK (who put the satmar or anti zionist position very well), put it nicely when they say "you can't kosher a pork".
Being that I believe in reciprocation, I consider Satmarism 'kashered pork.'
So if they don't want to work with it, it makes sense. But they should all agree on the arabs out.
They don't agree with that (arabs out), not even close. And why would they according to this logic? You don't seem to have made that point.
you are right. my mistake in that post you quoted.
Whether one fights back depends on whether if after
Taking the 3 oaths as applicable to us , one allows for self defence.
neturei karta, don't. Their website has an example of dying al kiddush hashem because of the 3 oaths.
The satmar I imagine would agree with NK on that one.
Lubavitch , are non zionist, but pro defending israel. Most of them haven't heard of the 3 oaths, and those that have would all agree with self defence. (and a good lubavitch rabbi I spoke to was pro sovereignty even before we had sovereignty. so somewhat religious zionist in most books, since the core of religious zionism is sovereignty and em masse. And sovereignty even before we had sovereignty).
Agudat Yisroel, it wouldn't suprise me if they allow for self defence too. Every rabbi i've spoken to, does.. Except NK it seems.
Rabbis and jews nowadays have it drilled in that if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first.
Interestingly, after asking some rabbis, I asked a NK guy about that one. He said it's not the halacha at all, the halacha is if somebody comes to kill you, you run away. And if that fails, you try to injure him, and if that fails, then you kill him.
I then asked those rabbis again, and they said "if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first". I told them about the NK guy, and told them he said "run away". They all said the NK guy was right. And only as a last resort you kill him , they agreed 100% with the NK guy as soon as I told them what he said. Funny that.
I did read an article by rabbin binyamin kahane quoting a rashi about a burglar, that you can kill him.
so that would contradict that.
Actually I'm not sure I understand this. It seems we are confusing collective 'self defense' or 'rebellion' vs. individual acts. If an illegal immigrant comes to rob a Jew in his home in the US, it would not have anything to do with the 3 oaths if the Jew killed him. The oaths have to do with 'rebelling against the nations' which is a collective action, isn't it? As in, getting a group of Jews together and marching into washington with weapons etc or making a big enclave in the midwest and turning it into a settlement with bunkers and defense etc for the purpose of fighting the US. That would have to do with the 3 oaths. Self-defense is something different from this issue isn't it? How would it be included?
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I also think you are mischaracterizing Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Teichtal on the issue of going to Israel. They did not hold that it was the solution because it was 'safe.' Rabbi Kahane did not claim that Israel was safer than America. He did say that America COULD BECOME unsafe, as any place could, if the economy failed or what have you, but in no way was he saying that people are *physically safer in Israel. They were surrounded by arabs. Of course not. But he was saying that spiritually we are safer their as opposed to gentile nations.
He did not explicitly say that israel was safer than america.
But telling jews to make aliyah because america was physically dangerous. That implies that israel is safer physically.
unless he was being a bit tricky with people..
but he wouldn't have been
rabbi kahane would never have wanted to endanger jewish life. He devoted his life to making jewish people physically and spiritually secure. Physically first, because without that, you'd be dead and have no spiritual security e.g.. no yeshivot.
And Rabbi Teichtal also did not just say oh wow look at this horror, should have gone to Israel and would have escaped it. I haven't read his work but have seen excerpts and seen others discuss it and he specifically makes a point that the rabbis of Europe REJECTED THE LAND and that this was punishment and that if he hadn't rejected the land and made aliyah instead, he would have been spared. It has specifically about his sin of rejecting the land, not just failing to choose to go to britain or usa or somewhere "safe." And he also admitted to the alterior motives that affected many who were opposed to zionism/aliyah. Implying his own guilt in that regard I think. But explaining that positions of authority and nice wealth, status etc played a role in rabbis' opposition to zionism and staying wherever they were rather than embrace the land of Israel. He wrote that work in some sense to atone for what he felt was a grave sin.... Not mistake but sin. And he thought it was pride and other things that mixed people up to oppose aliyah. This is from what I gathered. It's not a mere calculation of "safety." Truth is, at this point, I don't think Jews are particularly safe anywhere, except maybe america, but like the winds, that could change at any time. All it would take is some muzzies to get brave or economy to get worse and people blame israel etc etc you never know. To be safe *spiritually I'd have to choose Israel.
I have read the book, and anyhow, you misunderstood me about rabbi teichtal.
And you misunderstand what rabbi teichtal was trying to do.
rabbi teichtal was not writing the book to atone. The book was so selfless. And also talked about how he went around warning jews desperately, because he wanted to save them. And they were not letting him speak there.
He was convinced that israel was the place to go.
And that the great rabbis of his day were mistaken
He was trying to make jews physically safe, so they not be murdered..
He went travelling like jabotinsky. But religious.
I am sure he would have met with kahane had he survived!
Now, because of his theological views...
(Which were religious zionist but not named that - he would not call himself a zionist, he would not associate another ism with judaism or an ism with torah).
Because of those views. e.g. as you said, that G-d wants religious jews to build up the land and so on. I think it blinded him to the fact that jews could flee to other places for safety. Not just israel.
He was trying desperately to save jews.. Going around warning people. But only mentioning israel.
(He was right. , it was right for its time).
In the end he was murdered on a train , I guess to a death camp.
He stuck up for a jew when a gentile passenger stole his bread.
He wrote in his book that a jew should be like moshe rabbaynu sticking up for his fellow jew. I guess he thought moshe rabbaynu used the divine name :( i'm sure he didn't beat the nazi!
Rabbi teichtal was tortured to death, and faithful people held to his request that his work be published and spread.
It is not of negative consequence that he only spoke of israel as the place to go..
If jews had gone there they would have been saved.
It was much safer than poland. The nazis never reaches israel thank G-d.
Where I see the problem though, is if that mentality, that Israel is the safest place, is carried over to today.
I hate to quote rabbi kahane to argue with rabbi kahane, but
Rabbi Kahane at a national press club conference , the 1990 one with the red paint. He said that it is inevitable that the arabs would have better weapons than israel, and as an orthodox rabbi, he believed that only by miracles, does/has israel survived.
(And we know, he and chaim and a newspaper article I saw from the time, have given good examples of those miracles. How in 1948 america abandoned israel, britain helped arm and officered the arabs , and israel got help from stalin of all places, and survived. And of course 1967 - as kahane said "who wins wars in 6 days?")..
My concern is that what if Israel doesn't have those miracles. And G-d gives israel the protection that he gave to Rabbi Kahane. We don't want another holocaust.
We read in ezekiel ch 36 - which kahane used - about "Divine wrath". And as he said he doesn't want divine wrath. Well if G-d forbid there was a nuclear holocaust in israel, what would we say?
We wouldn't be searching for "why why why". We have sinned so badly that I don't think religious jews would be searching for answers. Israel has been steeped in sin from the beginning.
There's alot of good in israel, and alot of bad. And in Germany.. and Poland. You had alot of good, and it was wiped out with the bad, the reform/liberal jews in germany.
We have these same black hat anti zionists in israel today growing. Not open to the threat. Thinking you just learn anothe page of gemara and things will be fine.
The same type of anti religious people, this time with guns. (one anti zionist one told me, the israeli government is like the reform movement, with guns).. In terms of their divine wrath and disobeying the torah, they are.
You have a huge threat, which targets some areas more than others. In this case, Arabs the targetting israel as number 1, and it's a small country, and they are getting better weapons.
In those days, it was Nazis. Targetting germany which they easily got, they had it any. Targetting poland - well, they killed the jews there. Not reaching certain places.
In those days you had anti-zionists stubbornly staying in poland as the threat increased.
In these days you have religious zionists stubbornly staying in israel as the threat increases.
Israelis - they don't have EU passports or american passports, they are trapped.
Jews in poland were trapped, entry and exit points blocked.
common sense says, go where it is safe. That was what to do during the holocaust. And it's fairly obvious that it's the safest thing to do now. Rather than rely on more miracles.. How can we rely on miracles when israel is sinning so badly.. How can we rely on emunah protecting us, if our leader, the man with the most emunah, rabbi kahane, was not protected.
(and if you say we didn't deserve him. Then again. It gets worse because by our sins in israel, are we really deserving? Infact, rabbi kahane thought, "no". But that what we are witnessing was our return , not for our sake, but for the sake of G-d's holy name. It's a theory that as the whole thing drags on, gets less and less likely, because as it drags on, it desecrates G-d's name. So if he was doing it for his name, then he would do it immediately. If this theory is the reason then we are risking millions of jews on this theory. And even then. Ezekiel ch36 tha talks about it, talks about divine wrath, and - from what I remember - it talks about divine wrath being the reason why G-d exiled us, because it is better that we desecrate the exiled land than the holy land).
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Interesting.
But if it's an "active pursuer" then does the equation change or was that assuming the 'guy' who came to kill you is that?
Because I thought it was davka a mitzva to kill an active pursuer.
Or is it merely permitted?
AND you wrote
Actually I'm not sure I understand this. It seems we are confusing collective 'self defense' or 'rebellion' vs. individual acts. If an illegal immigrant comes to rob a Jew in his home in the US, it would not have anything to do with the 3 oaths if the Jew killed him. The oaths have to do with 'rebelling against the nations' which is a collective action, isn't it? As in, getting a group of Jews together and marching into washington with weapons etc or making a big enclave in the midwest and turning it into a settlement with bunkers and defense etc for the purpose of fighting the US. That would have to do with the 3 oaths. Self-defense is something different from this issue isn't it? How would it be included?
You have hit upon a contradiction between the 3 oaths as interpreted by satmar, and the concept of a rodef in the arab case.
I don't know how a satmar would resolve this.
Yes, killing a burglar is not rising up aginst the nations. But killing an arab who like other arabs, is out to get us. That's rising up against the arabs.
And BTW in the case of the burglar , when I raised that point, that was nothing to do with the 3 oaths. That was all the rabbis and NK saying run away. Vs Rabbi Binyamin Kahane quoting a rashi saying don't run, kill him i.e. not as a last resort.
I can tell you that in a conversation with a NK guy, his argument completely fell apart when I said to him that the terrorists like arafat, are Rodfim. He said they're not. The jews aren't running away.
I said they are killing jews, e.g. innocent jews in a cafe. They don't have a chance to run away.
If a person comes at somebody from behind with an axe, and the person doesn't noticed. Is the person not a rodef? He didn't have a good answer to that . He then said "well, what are they doing in a cafe? " (he was thinking, a cafe is evil secular western society.. they should be in yeshiva). I said, that's another matter, maybe they should not be there. But this does not excuse the murderer, he is persuing them, he is a rodef like the guy with the axe. So then he said
What about the israeli government that meets with htem - do you qq defend them. I said I consider them similar to the arab murderers themselves, and in many cases, similar to the nazis.
Really, he couldn't answer that.
And he couldn't really say they are not rodfim, when I said "they are killing jews". Because he is a jew and it bothered him.. And I think he knew ther's something wrong here..
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The rabbi I learned with a while back must hold by Rashi because he said when there is a rodef it's a mitzvah to kill him, you must kill him.
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That was an interesting post about the danger in Israel.
I want to make aliyah, but it is hard to ignore these realities. What can a person say to their kids or grandkids if they choose to go there and end up getting them after their born in Israel, stuck in a shoah-like situation G-d forbid. And they went to fulfill the mitzvah.
But then there is also a line of reasoning that in the redemption the 'doors will close.' Maybe this kind of fear is just one factor of those 'doors closing' to aliyah.? And this fear then would only grow and grow as time goes on to make it more and more of a challenge to actually make aliyah (doors closing in a sort of psychological sense rather than merely physical). Who knows? Who can really predict....
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The rabbi I learned with a while back must hold by Rashi because he said when there is a rodef it's a mitzvah to kill him, you must kill him.
actually I or we may be merging 2 issues here.
Somebody coming to kill you.
And A trying to kill B, B running away.
So you C can kill Rodef A
They may be the same issue.. I am not sure.
But it is an obligation for C to kill Rodef A.
Notice that if B is running away, then it's a rodef.
According to the rabbis and NK.
But here is an example of where B isn't running away.
Chaim in a brilliant ask jtf,
gave an interesting case of an innocent Rodef that we kill and G-d will deal with any mitigating circumstances.
For example. A foetus in the mother's womb. endangering the mother's life. He is innocent but he is a rodef. And we kill the foetus. (permitted? obligated? I tihnk he prob said obligated).
That assumes that the posek that decided that got it right! And wasn't overgeneralising or anything. How firm that position is. It is an ancient law applied to something new, and it could get subjective on the posek's part maybe.
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Hmm, but what does the "innocence" of the rodef have to do with whether or not person B is running away? Seems maybe a stretch, or maybe just worded the wrong way and would make sense. Maybe I'm just not understanding it, I'm getting tired.
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That was an interesting post about the danger in Israel.
I want to make aliyah, but it is hard to ignore these realities. What can I say to my kids or grandkids if I choose to go there and then leave them in a shoah-like situation G-d forbid. And I just want to go and fulfill the mitzvah. But then there is also a line of reasoning that the 'doors will close.' Maybe this kind of fear is just one factor of those 'doors closing' to aliyah.? And this fear then would only grow and grow as time goes on to make it more and more of a challenge to actually make aliyah (doors closing in a sort of psychological sense rather than merely physical). Who knows? Who can really predict....
Regarding the shoa risk.. A nuke is instant, so I would have said that yeah you can get out if you have a passport. Yourt kids would have a passport too probably 'cos their parent is from that country. But would that be quick enough? maybe not.
Regarding the argument that if you don't go to israel now, maybe soon the doors might close.
This is some strange idea, I guess it was going around years ago.. But if you look at it sensibly.
Why would aliya to israel be impossible?
Either things change in the diaspora overnight so dramatically as to defy common sense.
That doesn't happen overnight.
Or
Israel closes its doors.
If israel closes its doors, then israel would probably be in some terrible trouble, like maybe they got rid of the law of return! Which I don't think would happen. But if they did, then israel would be in trouble and not the safe place to be.
Another possiblity is moshiach comes and he closes the doors!!!
But accepting the kahanist/rabbi bar hayyim view, the RAMBAM view, about moshiach fighting the wars of G-d. This is not going to be a big overnight suprise.
Somebody will arise. people will be presuming he is moshiach, he will be fulfilling the requirements.
This is not going to be an overnight phenomena. There will be enough opportunity to come to israel while that happens, if you think it's worth the bet, and you can always leave if you want.
note- there is a theological trap.. according to ketuvot 111A, (3 oaths are 110B-111A) once you go there you aren't meant to leave. It says that just after the 3 oaths.
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Why do they make a point of having that statement?
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Why do they make a point of having that statement?
it's very pro living in israel
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NK say, only the most religious person is holy enough to live in israel without defiling it.
RAMBAM, RAMBAN, the greatest of the generation.
And they say that the generation from when the temple was destroyed was greater than us ('cos you know charedim think every generation before was greater.. they may be right).
strong arugment.
One answer, assuming they were greater, is that relative to their time, they might not be greater. We are far from ever having had the temple, so we are not judged as harshly, they were nearer to great times so should have known better.
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note- listening to rabbi bar hayyim,(I don't listen to him much, but if judea refers me to one or a point in one, then I listen) One does hear him describing situations from a psychological perspective , and it makes sense. It sounds like ridicule.. Maybe they deserve it, or it's just the truth, and if it comes out that way then so be it. But it really hits the nail on the head.
You just reminded me.
Within the next few days, I will post Rav Bar Hayim's shiurim on the works of Shabbetai Ben Dov, one of the greatest Jewish minds in Jewish history.
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Why do they make a point of having that statement?
it's very pro living in israel
Um, ok.
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note- listening to rabbi bar hayyim,(I don't listen to him much, but if judea refers me to one or a point in one, then I listen) One does hear him describing situations from a psychological perspective , and it makes sense. It sounds like ridicule.. Maybe they deserve it, or it's just the truth, and if it comes out that way then so be it. But it really hits the nail on the head.
You just reminded me.
Within the next few days, I will post Rav Bar Hayim's shiurim on the works of Shabbetai Ben Dov, one of the greatest Jewish minds in Jewish history.
that will be interesting, I look forward to it.. I recall you asking chaim about him.
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Why do they make a point of having that statement?
it's very pro living in israel
I am referring to the talmud having that statement about not leaving israel. And it is after the 3 oaths.
Very pro living in israel in that sense.
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note- listening to rabbi bar hayyim,(I don't listen to him much, but if judea refers me to one or a point in one, then I listen) One does hear him describing situations from a psychological perspective , and it makes sense. It sounds like ridicule.. Maybe they deserve it, or it's just the truth, and if it comes out that way then so be it. But it really hits the nail on the head.
You just reminded me.
Within the next few days, I will post Rav Bar Hayim's shiurim on the works of Shabbetai Ben Dov, one of the greatest Jewish minds in Jewish history.
I wasn't getting anything on google..
this transliteration gets it
Shabtai Ben Dov
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That was an interesting post about the danger in Israel.
I want to make aliyah, but it is hard to ignore these realities.
The reality is that it is safer for Jews to be in Israel then in Galut. Yes Israel will and is experiencing big Milhamot, but we need not be afraid of anyone or anything besides G-d. IF something has to happen it could happen anywhere and we have to understand we cant run anywhere. + even if one dies, death is not the worse thing and it can come anywhere whether one is in America, europe or Israel, G-d decides.
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That was an interesting post about the danger in Israel.
I want to make aliyah, but it is hard to ignore these realities.
The reality is that it is safer for Jews to be in Israel then in Galut. Yes Israel will and is experiencing big Milhamot, but we need not be afraid of anyone or anything besides G-d. IF something has to happen it could happen anywhere and we have to understand we cant run anywhere. + even if one dies, death is not the worse thing and it can come anywhere whether one is in America, europe or Israel, G-d decides.
It is not safer. It is not safe to take a bus. There are so many car accidents..
And furthermore, from what I understand, healthcare in israel is bad. May be good for some specialist things, but pretty bad. Maybe the totalitarian/Socialism aspect makes things run badly.
Don't force me into possibly doing the sin of the spies(in tenach - as described by rabbi teichtal) by talking badly about the situation of israel. But life is in danger going there.. More danger than in america. Don't hide that.
The only reason to go to israel is religious. Any other reason and you need your head examined.
Infact, i'm sure rabbi kahane in one of the radio shows even admitted that!!! That america is a great country, and only because he is a religious jew, and G-d wants jews in israel, only because of that, he does what he does.
And given the muslim threat. Britain and America are really very safe for jews.
Firstly, the threat here is minimal, and if one really wanted to run away from it, there are many parts of britain and america with hardly any muslims at all, one can always go there. (though it may be hard to find a minyan if you move too far out, ).
Secondly, we have a police force, and jews are only in real danger from an evil regime. At the moment, the press and media, though left wing, are aware of the real bogeyman that is muslims. They are so focussed on "understanding islam" and this nonsense, they are FAR FAR FAR from blaming jews for everything bad in the world. We are VERY FAR from the conditions that led to the holocaust, VERY FAR. A jew should keep his political antennae sharp.
When I was in a muslim area, I walked proudly through the arab market a few times with my kippa on. Dressed for shabbat. I was fine. Hordes of muslims aren't running rampage. The odd muslim hoodlum might be a problem, but the most you get from hordes is a debate. I can debate 10 at a time if I have to.
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You are right that the reason why Jews should go to Israel is becuase G-d commands it.
And the reality is that probably many who do not feel that way will leave Israel once the opportunity arrises.
BUT at the same time living in Israel doesn't mean that one will necessarily live or die. Their is no thing as chance, everything happens for a reason, when G-d wants to save the Jews He does soo, even when their are scudd missiles falling (the same type that killed thousands of Iranians earlier) and only killed 1 Jew (and it was the person who would for his ammusement go to Religious neighborhoods on Shabb-t and purposly disturb them with his motorcycle).
We are also told that at first Ishmael and Edom will fight each other, and we will see more of that in the near future, expecially with the wing of Persia (Iran).
BUT afterwards their will be a unity between them, they will goin together, and we already see the roots of this with the talks that Saudi Arabia is organizing between the religions.
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<snip>
BUT at the same time living in Israel doesn't mean that one will necessarily live or die. Their is no thing as chance, everything happens for a reason, when G-d wants to save the Jews He does soo, even when their are scudd missiles falling (the same type that killed thousands of Iranians earlier) and only killed 1 Jew (and it was the person who would for his ammusement go to Religious neighborhoods on Shabbat and purposly disturb them with his motorcycle).
when I was in class during that 1991 gulf war with the 38 scuds. I remember somebody fcoming in with a radio and giving latest news. 10 dead. 7, 2 deade. not sure if 2 are dead. 1 dead.
and each time, whether 10, or 7, we saw it as a huge miracle. 38 scuds and so few dead.
Later I heard the story about 1 dead.
I heard that it was a russian gentile selling pork!!
And he died of a heart attack seeing a scud! He didn't even die from the scud.
We are also told that at first Ishmael and Edom will fight each other, and we will see more of that in the near future, expecially with the wing of Persia (Iran).
BUT afterwards their will be a unity between them, they will goin together, and we already see the roots of this with the talks that Saudi Arabia is organizing between the religions.
I had heard about yishmael vs edom/esau. And none dominatin israel. heard that was in teh Zohar.
But hadn't heard about this unit afterwards, though naturally after moshiach has brought peace, there would be.
you never state sources, it means you don't really know the basis for what you say. or if there are differing opinions. or an issue with that particular text. or anything, It's bad scholarship
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“For I will gather all the nations against
Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled, and the women ravished,
and half of the city shall go into exile, and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the
city”. (Zechariah 14)"
“Rabbi Elazar was asked by his students: what will a man do to be
spared from the pains of the arrival of the Mashiach? Let him occupy
himself with the Torah and let him perform acts of kindness” (Talmud
Sanhedrin 98a)
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not exactly what you were looking for, was it.
Anyhow, the messiah fights the wars of G-d. (Prob not like rambo either, not alone)
Rabbi akiva's students faught with the man rabbi akiva thought was moshiach.
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not exactly what you were looking for, was it.
??? , It does show a coalition of all the nations gathering agains't the Jews and Jerusalem.
I also heard other things on this, and read also, but I just through a little example from the Prophets. (if you want another listin to the third to last shiur, of Rabbi Mizrachi (as of today).
Besides that their are probably more sources, it will take a little of time, but again what exactly are you looking for sources for- just to be sure.
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“For I will gather all the nations against
Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled, and the women ravished,
and half of the city shall go into exile, and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the
city”. (Zechariah 14)"
“Rabbi Elazar was asked by his students: what will a man do to be
spared from the pains of the arrival of the Mashiach? Let him occupy
himself with the Torah and let him perform acts of kindness” (Talmud
Sanhedrin 98a)
It sounds like the students were asking Rabbi Elazar: "But what should the cowards do?" And he answered them kindly that even they can serve a role and they better do Torah and kindness to contribute to Israel if they are unwilling to endure any 'pains.' Is this a possible explanation?
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“For I will gather all the nations against
Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled, and the women ravished,
and half of the city shall go into exile, and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the
city”. (Zechariah 14)"
“Rabbi Elazar was asked by his students: what will a man do to be
spared from the pains of the arrival of the Mashiach? Let him occupy
himself with the Torah and let him perform acts of kindness” (Talmud
Sanhedrin 98a)
It sounds like the students were asking Rabbi Elazar: "But what should the cowards do?" And he answered them kindly that even they can serve a role and they better do Torah and kindness to contribute to Israel if they are unwilling to endure any 'pains.' Is this a possible explanation?
NO! (actually it was just something extra I through in) You are interpreting it according to your thinking, etc.
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“For I will gather all the nations against
Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled, and the women ravished,
and half of the city shall go into exile, and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the
city”. (Zechariah 14)"
“Rabbi Elazar was asked by his students: what will a man do to be
spared from the pains of the arrival of the Mashiach? Let him occupy
himself with the Torah and let him perform acts of kindness” (Talmud
Sanhedrin 98a)
It sounds like the students were asking Rabbi Elazar: "But what should the cowards do?" And he answered them kindly that even they can serve a role and they better do Torah and kindness to contribute to Israel if they are unwilling to endure any 'pains.' Is this a possible explanation?
NO! (actually it was just something extra I through in) You are interpreting it according to your thinking, etc.
Well of course it is, but I'm saying it sounds that way.
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I would be interested in the meforshim on that statement, especially considering Rabbi Akiva and his students....
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qq- some more sources- (thanks to www.Israel613.com for their sources- Im just throwing a few quick ones, but their are much more im sure.)
Rashi, one of the most important Rabbis who wrote his
commentary to the scripture around 900 years ago, explains that
the Battle of Gog and Magog will be G-d’s revenge for all the evil
perpetrated against the Jewish people throughout history. (Rashi
on Ezekiel 38).
The Ramak (Rabbi Moshe Cordovero) of blessed memory, explains
that in the final days the nations will make peace between
themselves and arise to destroy the Jews because they have
established their own kingdom (country), and that there will be
terrible trouble.
The Midrash Vayosha says the following: “When the days of the
Mashiach come, Gog and Magog will rise up against Israel. Gog
will take all the nations along and will go up against Jerusalem”.
Metzudat David and Ibn Ezra say that the battle will also serve to
rid the Jewish people of the sinners within it, that do not deserve to
witness the good the Jews will receive then.
PASSAGE FROM THE HOLY ZOHAR (II, 58) WRITTEN
1800 YEARS AGO BY RABBI SHIMON BAR YOCHAI,
MAY HIS MERIT PROTECT US
“Rabbi Ytzchak said: In the future seventy princes from all over the
world will unite with the masses to attack Jerusalem and plot
against G-d. They will plan to battle Him, then fight over His people
and Temple. However, “He who sits in heaven laughs, The Lord will
mock them” (Psalms 2:4). In His glory, G-d will wipe them from the
face of the earth.
Rabbi Abba said in the name of Rabbi Yisa Sabba, and Rabbi
Shimon Bar Yohai also said: In the future, G-d will revive
(reincarnate) and reinstate all the kings who oppressed the Jewish
people and ruled Jerusalem: Adrianus, Lupinus, Nevuchadnezzar,
Sancheriv, and all the others who destroyed His house. They will
unite with other nations. The Lord will announce: “And this will be
the plague with which G-d will smite all the nations that mobilized
against Jerusalem…” (Zechariah 14:12).”
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yes tzvi, and I could probably also find the one you really intended to find, from the zohar about yishmael and edom fighting but not taking israel.
There are many statements about the end times. I don't know what you are doing playing the game of quoting anything randomly about it.
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qq you said " you never state sources, it means you don't really know the basis for what you say"
So I provided you sources on what I said earlir- that all the nations will unite agains't Jerusalem. What is the problem ???
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qq you said " you never state sources, it means you don't really know the basis for what you say"
So I provided you sources on what I said earlir- that all the nations will unite agains't Jerusalem. What is the problem ???
firstly, when I said you never state sources.. that was before you had attempted to state a source.
or even thouht about where it was from.
secondly, after you did state a source, and I told you it didn't defend what you wanted it to. You then quoted another load, which still didn't say what you wanted.
I was aware that what you were saying was actually from the zohar. Just a question of where. easy to find.
And I said near the beginning I could probably find the quote anyway. It was about yishmael fighting edom.
The zohar makes an amazing prediction
Zohar VaEra 32b
"
In the future, the children of Yishmael will rule over the Holy land for a long time while the land is empty, just as their circumcision is empty and without completion. And they will hinder the children of Israel from returning to their place, until their merit in the Holy land runs out. In the future the children of Yishmael will stir great wars in the world. And the children of Edom [the West] will gather against them, and make war with them, one on the sea, and one on the land, and one by Jerusalem; and each one will prevail over the other but the Holy land will not fall to the hands of Edom
...
"
it comes up from a google of "the sons of edom will gather against them"
but I found sites just by googling zohar yishmael esau, which led to the quote itself, which I could google an extract of to find some good sites.
I haven't examined this websit but it looks pretty cool, it was one that had the full quote.
http://www.betemunah.org/edom.html