JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: q_q_ on July 19, 2008, 10:36:36 PM
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I must poitn out that unfortunately.. Anti Zionists do not view religious zionism as legitimate. This is very bad of them.. They are fanatical loons in this respect. Giving an over reaction to the original secular zionism..
I will go into this further.. But anyhow. Here is what rabbi kahane himself said
extract from
http://kahane.blogspot.com/2007/01/beards-carry-no-immunity-by-rabbi-meir.html
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And while much fire and brimstone has been poured on the heads of Lerner and Arens and all the other secular and leftist Jews, there has been an unconscionable failure on the part of religious Jews to speak out against the traitors and enemies of both Israel and the Jewish people who call themselves Neturei Karta. That is inexcusable.
Let me make it quite clear that it is totally legitimate for one to be an anti-Zionist and to disagree with the fundamental concept of a Jewish state in our times, because of religious reasons. There is certainly source material for that position in Torah sources, even though those who use it to deny the legitimate halachic status of Israel are, I believe, very very wrong. I believe that the Jewish state is G-d's hand, that the well known "oaths" in Tractace Ketubot that are used to deny the right to a Jewish state until the coming of the Messiah are interpreted totally wrong and that Religious Zionism is not only proper, but mandatory and obligatory.
Nevertheless, I certainly recognize the right of Jews to religiously differ, though wrong. That is not why I feel that Jews should rise up in anger at Neturei Karta and use all means necessary to punish them. It is not their anti-Zionism which is criminal and which places them beyond the pale. It is rather the fact that they openly support the enemies of the Jewish people, the murderous and vicious Arab Nazis of the PLO, that places the Neturei Karta outside the Jewish camp.
There is a red line in Judaism that cannot be crossed without becoming a traitor to and enemy of the Jewish people. There is a limit that, once reached and violated, marks one as a moser, an informer, and a rodef, a pursuer of Jews, who is plotting to destroy them. That line and limit is the joining together, openly and eagerly and without shame with the enemy who wishes to harm and destroy Jews. Neturei Karta has become the enemy within the Jewish camp, the moser and rodef that should be dealt with in all the ways that are necessary.
It does not matter that they comprise a handful. Their insignificant numbers are unimportant. The substantive nature of their treachery and Hillul Hashem, desecration of the Name, are what matter.
In their obscene words and actions on behalf of the PLO Nazis, do they differ from those leftist Israelis who meet with and support the PLO? In their open support to the Hitlerite Arabs, are they different from Yigal Arens, or Noam Chomsky, or Lenny Brenner or the other disturbed leftist Jews who aid the destruction of Israel? Is venom against Jews and hatred of the Jewish State somehow mitigated because the individual has a beard? Do payot (earlocks) and a long black coat cover the treacherous nakedness of the moser and rodef? Does someone who joins hands, literally, with those who would massacre Jews become more legitimate because he covers his abomination with the mantle of the “Torah”?
I do not think so. I know that there is no difference except that the so-called religious Jew, in addition to his teacher, also desecrates the name of G-d and his Torah. Jewish silence, religious Jewish silence, is inexcusable. The time is long overdue for unified Torah condemnation of Neturei Karta and the same kind of action against them that we would deem proper for those traitors who walk around beardless. After all, many is the “religious” Jew whose beard merely covers an unshaven face, and whose piety is but a fig leaf for the same diseased soul as that which possesses all the traitors on the left.
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And now join shimon peres, beilin, olmert, netanyahu, every member of the israeli govt and almost every single israeli political party to that list with naturei karta.
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And now join shimon peres, beilin, olmert, netanyahu, every member of the israeli govt and almost every single israeli political party to that list with naturei karta.
ABSOLUTELY
BUT THEY ARE WORSE IN THAT THEY CAN REALLY CAUSE HARM!!!!!!!!!!!
It's annoying when people criticise NK, and forget to criticise those guys too.
I am not sure about lumping netanyahu with peres.
though they all go in the same direction.
new thread on netanyahu! I have an interesting analysis of him.
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And now join shimon peres, beilin, olmert, netanyahu, every member of the israeli govt and almost every single israeli political party to that list with naturei karta.
ABSOLUTELY
BUT THEY ARE WORSE IN THAT THEY CAN REALLY CAUSE HARM!!!!!!!!!!!
It's annoying when people criticise NK, and forget to criticise those guys too.
I am not sure about lumping netanyahu with peres.
though they all go in the same direction.
new thread on netanyahu! I have an interesting analysis of him.
But those fringe leftists Kahane mentions, like brenner etc were in a tiny minority back then. With Oslo, the can of worms opened. And all of these people are the worms, including netanyahu. And they don't just "stand in support" of the PLO nazis like Brenner or Chomsky, they ACTUALLY SIGNED AGREEMENTS WITH THEM to hand over Jewish land and give them weapons to kill Jews. Peres, sharon, Netanyahu, etc are far worse than a clown like Brenner, imo.
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certainly..
rabbi kahane said on radio with brenner, that brenner was irrelevant!
also irrelevant because he was an honest atheist that didn't consider himself jewish.
And jews tend not to be like that. The secular ones tend to have some urge to identify as jewish, and rabbi kahane would work on that and force them to make choices.
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Very good article. Agree everything with it, though 1 thing has changed since, the NK are under a Herim (Bann) by almost all Orthodox Jews, including Satmar. They are such a small, but vocal minority and I dont believe much attention should be given to them. One thing I hope happens- I hope they survive the wars, and world events etc. that will happen in the very near future (actually already happening) just for one reason- so that they could be publicly hanged by a Jewish Sanhedrin.
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Very good article. Agree everything with it, though 1 thing has changed since, the NK are under a Herim (Bann) by almost all Orthodox Jews, including Satmar. They are such a small, but vocal minority and I dont believe much attention should be given to them. One thing I hope happens- I hope they survive the wars, and world events etc. that will happen in the very near future (actually already happening) just for one reason- so that they could be publicly hanged by a Jewish Sanhedrin.
nah..
part of the reason neturei karta are so hated, is not just because they or some of them stand with terrorists.
they are used as a scapegoat by many anti zionists. The anti zionists say "look, we are only non zionists. THEY are the real bad guys"!!!!
They are anti zionist the same way they are anti reform judaism. It's not "non", it's anti.
They say being a religious zionist is like being a religious reform jew.
They don't even recognise that any jews even believe that religious zionism is rooted in the torah. They refuse to budge from their definitions of zionism. Because their religious luminaries were from poland during the rise of secular zionism, and they took an extreme move in the other direction, to not accept -anything- not even religious zionism. The state of israel is pork to them.
The only haredim I have seen that say they are not against zionism, are some or all lubavitch rabbis. Who say "what part of zionism" and they'll say for or against. And most are for sovereignty too.
sfardim might also be not that anti zionist. But alot of those that call themseles noni zionist, see RZ as a joke, and are really anti zionist, and point to neturei karta to take the heat off of themselves.
The idea of not giving attention to neturei karta, is silly.
They are not powerful anyway.
And they represent the mainstream anti zionist position extremely well and very lucidly . They just do it standing with terrorists. But you can hear the position from them.
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Read the article by Rav Kahane again expecially this
"Let me make it quite clear that it is totally legitimate for one to be an anti-Zionist and to disagree with the fundamental concept of a Jewish state in our times, because of religious reasons. There is certainly source material for that position in Torah sources, even though those who use it to deny the legitimate halachic status of Israel are, I believe, very very wrong. I believe that the Jewish state is G-d's hand, that the well known "oaths" in Tractace Ketubot that are used to deny the right to a Jewish state until the coming of the Messiah are interpreted totally wrong and that Religious Zionism is not only proper, but mandatory and obligatory.
Nevertheless, I certainly recognize the right of Jews to religiously differ, though wrong. That is not why I feel that Jews should rise up in anger at Neturei Karta and use all means necessary to punish them. It is not their anti-Zionism which is criminal and which places them beyond the pale. It is rather the fact that they openly support the enemies of the Jewish people, the murderous and vicious Arab Nazis of the PLO, that places the Neturei Karta outside the Jewish camp."
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I read it obviously, and you didn't understand what I wrote.
I said that if you want to hear the anti zionist position, they put it very clearly.
I agree they are clearly putting themselves off the radar of legitimacy by standing with terrorists.
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Very good article. Agree everything with it, though 1 thing has changed since, the NK are under a Herim (Bann) by almost all Orthodox Jews, including Satmar. They are such a small, but vocal minority and I dont believe much attention should be given to them. One thing I hope happens- I hope they survive the wars, and world events etc. that will happen in the very near future (actually already happening) just for one reason- so that they could be publicly hanged by a Jewish Sanhedrin.
nah..
part of the reason neturei karta are so hated, is not just because they or some of them stand with terrorists.
they are used as a scapegoat by many anti zionists. The anti zionists say "look, we are only non zionists. THEY are the real bad guys"!!!!
They are anti zionist the same way they are anti reform judaism. It's not "non", it's anti.
I agree with you here, qq. It's a bit of hypocrisy. But many haredim also give lipservice to this sort of stance, but deep down they actually do sympathize with zionism, or are zionists/have zionist beliefs and either won't admit it or don't realize
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1 Thing I do not understand of Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD himself was what I was reading today in his sefer. I was reading about who can and who cant be in the position of authority over Israel. And he writes and brings down sources that only a Jew who is G-d fearing can and should be in a position of authority over Israel- so that would exclude the secular entity and the arabs and any non-Jew to be rulers over Israel, BUT at the same time if the secular entity is incharge of the army, and if they are incharge of the kenesset, how and why did he join the army and why was he part of the kenesset- if its roots were illegitimate as he writes ???
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What a giant! Thanks for posting!
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1 Thing I do not understand of Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD himself was what I was reading today in his sefer. I was reading about who can and who cant be in the position of authority over Israel. And he writes and brings down sources that only a Jew who is G-d fearing can and should be in a position of authority over Israel- so that would exclude the secular entity and the arabs and any non-Jew to be rulers over Israel, BUT at the same time if the secular entity is incharge of the army, and if they are incharge of the kenesset, how and why did he join the army and why was he part of the kenesset- if its roots were illegitimate as he writes ???
Does that mean when we had wicked kings who were idolators, the religious jews should have become NK and stood with the babylonians?
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1 Thing I do not understand of Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD himself was what I was reading today in his sefer. I was reading about who can and who cant be in the position of authority over Israel. And he writes and brings down sources that only a Jew who is G-d fearing can and should be in a position of authority over Israel- so that would exclude the secular entity and the arabs and any non-Jew to be rulers over Israel, BUT at the same time if the secular entity is incharge of the army, and if they are incharge of the kenesset, how and why did he join the army and why was he part of the kenesset- if its roots were illegitimate as he writes ???
Does that mean when we had wicked kings who were idolators, the religious jews should have become NK and stood with the babylonians?
Did I say that?
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1 Thing I do not understand of Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD himself was what I was reading today in his sefer. I was reading about who can and who cant be in the position of authority over Israel. And he writes and brings down sources that only a Jew who is G-d fearing can and should be in a position of authority over Israel- so that would exclude the secular entity and the arabs and any non-Jew to be rulers over Israel, BUT at the same time if the secular entity is incharge of the army, and if they are incharge of the kenesset, how and why did he join the army and why was he part of the kenesset- if its roots were illegitimate as he writes ???
Does that mean when we had wicked kings who were idolators, the religious jews should have become NK and stood with the babylonians?
Did I say that?
Not overtly, of course not. I SAID IT as a question to you. But obviously your comment implied this, which is why I wrote it. You are saying why wasn't Rabbi Kahane an antizionist (or "non" zionist) since he believed only a faithful Jew could and should lead Israel (like, why did he serve, and why enter knesset, ie why not undermine the state by having/advocating all religious sit out the process entirely, since it's run by secular entity as you call it). Isn't the answer to this question obvious? And isn't the likely reason you ask it, even more obvious?
It seems like we've hit on the crux of the contrast between the so-called "non" zionists and Kahanist religious Jews.
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1 Thing I do not understand of Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD himself was what I was reading today in his sefer. I was reading about who can and who cant be in the position of authority over Israel. And he writes and brings down sources that only a Jew who is G-d fearing can and should be in a position of authority over Israel- so that would exclude the secular entity and the arabs and any non-Jew to be rulers over Israel, BUT at the same time if the secular entity is incharge of the army, and if they are incharge of the kenesset, how and why did he join the army and why was he part of the kenesset- if its roots were illegitimate as he writes ???
Does that mean when we had wicked kings who were idolators, the religious jews should have become NK and stood with the babylonians?
Did I say that?
Not overtly, of course not. I SAID IT as a question to you. But obviously your comment implied this, which is why I wrote it. You are saying why wasn't Rabbi Kahane an antizionist (or "non" zionist) since he believed only a faithful Jew could and should lead Israel (like, why did he serve, and why enter knesset, ie why not undermine the state by having/advocating all religious sit out the process entirely, since it's run by secular entity as you call it). Isn't the answer to this question obvious? And isn't the likely reason you ask it, even more obvious?
It seems like we've hit on the crux of the contrast between the so-called "non" zionists and Kahanist religious Jews.
I'm not understanding what you are exactly saying.
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1 thing though I think would answer it- I think it is a question about idealism vs. practicality. Ideally Jews should not be ruled by and appoint anyone who is not a G-d fearing Jew, but practically since we are in that situation already then the Rav probably decided that was best at the time to do.
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Think of it this way.
We all agree across the board, all religious Jews, that a faithless or wicked/self-hating Jew cannot and should not be a "leader" of the Jewish people.
Charedi approach: The "secular entity" is evil, avoid it like the plague (oh, but they couldn't stay away entirely, could they?). And when the Muslim nazis come, we'll all get burnt (all the Jews of various stripe) save for some giant miracle, but it will mean our favorite rabbis predicted correctly and it will show how right we were all along that the secular entity was evil and would lead us to the path of destruction.
Rav Kahane approach: I'm a faithful Jew, and I will step in to replace the bankrupt leaders. And more Jews like me should try to do so. And we will destroy the muslim enemy.
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I'm not interested in proving the satmar rebbe correct...
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there is somewhere on the web where it says kahane said he would rather the state run by torah jews , even if they are non(he may have said anti?) zionists. Than by secular.
it was a question and answer with some rabbi, and the question made the claim and asked him for his comments on that. no idea the link, doesn't matter so much.
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I'm not interested in proving the satmar rebbe correct...
I agree, their is no way to prove him correct because he is not. When he wrote his sefer Vayoel Moshe in 1961, it was already clear that jews in Israel were in a fight for their lives so for him to call for the destruction of Israel at that time showed what a cold chaya he was.
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I'm not interested in proving the satmar rebbe correct...
I agree, their is no way to prove him correct because he is not. When he wrote his sefer Vayoel Moshe in 1961, it was already clear that jews in Israel were in a fight for their lives so for him to call for the destruction of Israel at that time showed what a cold chaya he was.
There is no way that you read his book.
You couldn't even quote me when my posts were written in english in the same thread as you.
Just a point to people. Don't take DWI's claims with any seriousness. I would bet that this particular one is wrong. (and I have heard stories to the contrary, i.e. that the satmar rebbe supported israel's fight against the arabs in 1967. Even Neturei Karta pray for peaceful dismantlement, not arab genocide of israel)
DWI, even the lubavitch , the one group of jews you defend regardless(or pretend to defend so as to look like a hero in your imagination), even they respect the satmar rebbe
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?amount=0&blogid=1&query=satmar
you love and defend them so much, over everything, so take a lesson from them.
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Re: "...when we had wicked kings who were idolators, the religious jews should have become NK and stood with the babylonians?"
NO IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT.
YOUR QUESTION, HOWEVER, INDICATES THAT YOU ARE ONE HIGHLY CONFUSED INDIVIDUAL WITH NO KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY.
AT THE TIME OF THE BABYLONIAN EXILE THERE WERE NO RABBINICAL FACTIONS "FOR" OR "AGAINST" RETURN TO ZION.
IT WAS THE FIRST TIME JEWS HAD BEEN EXILED, AND THOSE IN EXILE DIDN'T WEAR BLACK HATS AND BLACK FEDORAS AND BLACK JACKETS.
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Re: "...when we had wicked kings who were idolators, the religious jews should have become NK and stood with the babylonians?"
NO IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT.
YOUR QUESTION, HOWEVER, INDICATES THAT YOU ARE ONE HIGHLY CONFUSED INDIVIDUAL WITH NO KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY.
AT THE TIME OF THE BABYLONIAN EXILE THERE WERE NO RABBINICAL FACTIONS "FOR" OR "AGAINST" RETURN TO ZION.
IT WAS THE FIRST TIME JEWS HAD BEEN EXILED, AND THOSE IN EXILE DIDN'T WEAR BLACK HATS AND BLACK FEDORAS AND BLACK JACKETS.
YOU LIKE TO WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS BUT WHY DON'T YOU EVER SAY WHO YOU ARE QUOTING.
YOU SHOULD NOT EXPECT PEOPLE TO SEARCH THE THREAD TO FIND OUT.
It's called netiquette, and common sense.
You are certainly not quoting the post before yours. So quote whatever you are quoting, with their name
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qq he was quoting me (he didn't even put the quotes in the right place).
But anyway I will address him.
Yes at that time their were "different factions", their were Rabbanim that said that Jews should stay in Bavel rather then go up (once again I do not agree with that opinion, but it did exist, maybe qq or Judea can bring you quotes, etc.) And for the record I never support or defend NK, just to let those people who might get the wrong impression know.
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I'm not interested in proving the satmar rebbe correct...
I agree, their is no way to prove him correct because he is not. When he wrote his sefer Vayoel Moshe in 1961, it was already clear that jews in Israel were in a fight for their lives so for him to call for the destruction of Israel at that time showed what a cold chaya he was.
There is no way that you read his book.
You couldn't even quote me when my posts were written in english in the same thread as you.
Just a point to people. Don't take DWI's claims with any seriousness. I would bet that this particular one is wrong. (and I have heard stories to the contrary, i.e. that the satmar rebbe supported israel's fight against the arabs in 1967. Even Neturei Karta pray for peaceful dismantlement, not arab genocide of israel)
DWI, even the lubavitch , the one group of jews you defend regardless(or pretend to defend so as to look like a hero in your imagination), even they respect the satmar rebbe
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?amount=0&blogid=1&query=satmar
you love and defend them so much, over everything, so take a lesson from them.
Of-course he read (that is- the stuff that is written about the book on Wikepedia or on some Hiloni newspaper.
I have also heard that the Satmer Rebbe when asked what gentiles should do in relation to Israel, he said that they should support it. again I believe that their "war" on Israel is more of a cultural war, not something that is that much different then Rav Kahane and Rav Benyamin Kahane.
And again I do not think it is wise to lump NK and Satmer together. (or at least the NK guys who stand with Arabs), BUT still at the end all of these groups (the different Hassidic and Haredi) would have to radically change in their mentality.
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I found a gemara reference to the story judea quoted. haven't checked the reference, but it's the same story.
http://yearsofawe.blogspot.com/2005/08/commenting-on-katrina.html
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Yehudit Yerushalmi said...
The gemara (Yoma 9b) tells a story. Reish Lakish was swimming in the Jordan when one of the Amoraim of Bavel approached. Reish Lakish said: “I hate you people of Bavel.” He continued to explain that because the Babylonian Jewish community did not come back to Eretz Yisrael in sufficient numbers in Ezra’s time, the settlement in Eretz Yisrael succumbed to deterioration and destruction.
http://www.eretzhemdah.org/hemdatyamim/5764/balak64/moreshet.htm
...Since the implication of the Gemara in Yoma (9b) is that the negative connotation that the Rabbis attached to the phrase "sinat chinam" has the emphasis on the "chinam" aspect of it, the opposite of "sinat chinam", hatred for no reason, would legitimately be "sinat sachar", doing it for a good reason. While it is not very "nice" to talk about hating someone - when we examine the concept in the Torah and in the Rambam, the problem is not the existence of the "sina" but how and/or when it is done.
http://www.torah.org/learning/maharal/tishabav.html
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Re: "...when we had wicked kings who were idolators, the religious jews should have become NK and stood with the babylonians?"
NO IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT.
YOUR QUESTION, HOWEVER, INDICATES THAT YOU ARE ONE HIGHLY CONFUSED INDIVIDUAL WITH NO KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY.
AT THE TIME OF THE BABYLONIAN EXILE THERE WERE NO RABBINICAL FACTIONS "FOR" OR "AGAINST" RETURN TO ZION.
IT WAS THE FIRST TIME JEWS HAD BEEN EXILED, AND THOSE IN EXILE DIDN'T WEAR BLACK HATS AND BLACK FEDORAS AND BLACK JACKETS.
I see now that I've become a target of you since I disagreed with you in private message (actually, didn't disagree, just asked for further clarification, which you were unwilling to provide, and you refused to provide anything other than insults in response).
You can't really be this dumb to misinterpret what I've said to mean as DURING THE EXILE. I was talking about NOT DURING THE EXILE, BUT WHEN WE HAD WICKED EVIL KINGS, in a JEWISH land of Israel. Have you ever read about the period of the kings? They were not all righteous, and some were even idolators. ANd they were "Jewish." Not during exile.
But thanks for the all-caps rant, and the insults, you really have problems don't you?
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And yes, the point Tzvi made is also applicable. Obviously some groups of rabbis chose to remain in Bavel rather than go back and rebuild the Temple with Ezra et al. They wrote the Babylonian Talmud and had huge yeshivot with thousands of students. But that had nothing to do with what I was saying. It just shows me how ridiculous massuh's response was, considering even if I was talking about exile, what he said would be wrong. Makes you wonder why he even said that, doesn't it? It was an attack.
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Re: "But that had nothing to do with what I was saying. It just shows me how ridiculous massuh's response was, considering even if I was talking about exile, what he said would be wrong. Makes you wonder why he even said that, doesn't it? It was an attack."
No it wasn't an attack.
You want an attack?
Then check your private messages.
I just can't understand why it is you hate religious Jews so much, as if they should renounce the Torah and join Olmert!
Haven't you understood the whole reason for the Revelation at Sinai?
If there's anything I am not going to tolerate any more on this forum it's members slandering the Gadolim and insulting the elders who have always sought to live a sanctified life.
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When did I slander gedolim?
Chas veshalom.
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How do I hate religious Jews? I am a religious Jew.
Are you hurt because you have NK tendencies? I really don't understand the meaning behind this pitiful rant.
And in case you haven't noticed, $ha$ and $UTJ$ have joined olmert and all the rest.
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The anti Zionist Jews who stand with the enemy do so much harm to the Jewish people. If gentiles are supporters of Israel then the anti Zionists say, "Well I'm Jewish and I'm against the Israeli state. Why would you be for Israel when you don't know Judaism."
They also portray a sense of religious authority with the way they dress, so this does even more harm.
When Muslims act like this, they have to be put in protective custody and have to flee to the West.
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KAHANE WAS RIGHT BT: "Are you hurt because you have NK tendencies? I really don't understand the meaning behind this pitiful rant. And in case you haven't noticed, $ha$ and $UTJ$ have joined olmert and all the rest.
See? There you go again "dissing" all Orthodox Jewry.
Why would you oppose your own people, and instead side with Tzipi Livni who even threw her own brother out of his homes?
I just don't understand what it is you see so wholesome about Secular Zionism!
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The anti Zionist Jews who stand with the enemy do so much harm to the Jewish people. If gentiles are supporters of Israel then the anti Zionists say, "Well I'm Jewish and I'm against the Israeli state. Why would you be for Israel when you don't know Judaism."
They also portray a sense of religious authority with the way they dress, so this does even more harm.
When Muslims act like this, they have to be put in protective custody and have to flee to the West.
Like I said before they should be ignored. They are getting what they want- attention. So people should just ignore those crazies until the time comes and their judgement could be meet (with Sanhedrin)
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KAHANE WAS RIGHT BT: "Are you hurt because you have NK tendencies? I really don't understand the meaning behind this pitiful rant. And in case you haven't noticed, $ha$ and $UTJ$ have joined olmert and all the rest.
See? There you go again "dissing" all Orthodox Jewry.
Why would you oppose your own people, and instead side with Tzipi Livni who even threw her own brother out of his homes?
I just don't understand what it is you see so wholesome about Secular Zionism!
I don't support secular zionism, you creep.
$ha$ and $UTJ$ DO support secular zionism for cold hard cash. And they are NOT "all" of Orthodox Jewry! They are two political parties. Do you consider the national religious "not Orthodox" ? How about Chabad? etc etc