JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: islamophobe on July 22, 2008, 12:39:13 AM
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Along with holocaust denial, our enemies want to strip us of our Biblical heritage, in order to assert the claim that we have no legitimate claim over Israel. So for anyone, Jew and Gentile that casually wanders into this forum, I would like to us to compile a list of facts proving the falseness of the Khazar myth.
I'll start us off. Linguistics. The Khazars were Turko-Mongol nation. Yiddish, the day-to-day language of Ashkenazi Jews for the last millenia, is a Germanicized (Indo-European) version of Hebrew (Semitic). There is absolutely no hint of neither Turkic nor Mongol vocabulary or grammar in Yiddish. The Yiddish language reflects the culture and genetic make-up of Ashkenazi Jews. A Semitic people that since the Roman diaspora had to an extent mixed with the surrounding European population, whether through acceptance of converts in peaceful times, rapes during pogroms, and through mixed marriages.
Reply to this post with another fact.
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After a Jewish woman was raped, it must have been so difficult to raise the child knowing that the father was a rapist. Is there any way of knowing how many rapes occurred during a certain period and how many European converts to Judaism occurred?
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Genetic tests for Kohanim/priests
Many Jews have a record of what tribe they are from.
Specifically,
Yaakov had 12 sons. One was Levi
A descendent of Levi was Moshe and his brother aharon. Aharon and his descendents are Kohanim.
Today, there are lots of jews who are kohanim or leviim.
Ashkenazi and Sephardi jews both have them. A recent discovery, is that genetic testing can show those who are from the priestly tribe, kohanim. It goes down the paternal(father) line.
Also, genetics can trace ashkenazi jews back to ancient israel
Recently there was a program with a Lord Professor Winston (a not so religious, jewish scientist. Lord is like Sir but probably far more)..
He is respected in the area of female fertility but he did a few programs on religion. At the same time as Dawkins. He was meant to be the religious version, against dawkins atheism, nevertheless he turned out to not be very religious.
But.. He got his DNA tested, and the scientist said to him "are you jewish". He said yes The scientist testing him, said, His DNA shows roots from ancient israel..
He is an ashkenazi jew.
This genetic thing has really changed the minds of some anti-semites. Because they can't argue with science like that.
Another fact.
Of course, we have our oral torah tradition that has been passed down in a chain, that nationally at least, has not been broken. It came down to us. From G-d to Moses to Joshua to Elders to Prophets to Men of the great assembly, to 5 pairs of rabbis ending in hillel and Shammai. The talmud was written based on it. And it has continuously been passed down and being taught till and including today.
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And there was a country called Khazar which converted to Judaism in the 8th or 9th century. There is no denying this fact. But the fact that the nation of Khazar converted doesnt mean that the Ashkenazi Jews {of whom I am one} are not related to the original Israelites. As another poster here has written, genetic DNA testing proves the existence of the Kohen gene which goes back to the original Kohens of the Israelite nation.
I am reading an interesting book on the Khazars. They were a very noble people to put down their idols and follow the commandments of Hashem.
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And there was a country called Khazar which converted to Judaism in the 8th or 9th century. There is no denying this fact. But the fact that the nation of Khazar converted doesnt mean that the Ashkenazi Jews {of whom I am one} are not related to the original Israelites. As another poster here has written, genetic DNA testing proves the existence of the Kohen gene which goes back to the original Kohens of the Israelite nation.
I am reading an interesting book on the Khazars. They were a very noble people to put down their idols and follow the commandments of Hashem.
A person born to a Jewish mother by a non-Jew has the satatus of Mamzer. A mamzer cannot marry a Jew.
muman613
PS: This information is not fully correct. A mamzer is the result of an adulterous relationship between Jews.
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muman63 and qq, when I said facts, I meant solid universally accepted evidence. Jewish law that is sometimes followed, sometimes not, depending on the the individuals practicing and the community involved, do not constitute, solid and universally accepted evidence. Neither does the Oral Torah.
Here is another example of a solid fact. The studies on the Jewish Y-chromosome performed by Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona. Proving that the majority of Jews, both Sephardi and Ashkenazi (excluding Ethiopians) are Semite and not Turks or East Asians. In fact the study also showed the close resemblance between Jewish and Arab DNA, confirming our Biblical origins going back to Isaac and Ishmael, Abraham's 2 oldest sons.
Here is the article that discussess the study:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E0D71338F93AA35756C0A9669C8B63
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The people believing the Khazar lie are ghouls who are beyond all hope. These devils won't listen to the facts no matter how rationally you speak to them. They are a lost cause.
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muman63 and qq, when I said facts, I meant solid universally accepted evidence. Jewish law that is sometimes followed, sometimes not, depending on the the individuals practicing and the community involved, do not constitute, solid and universally accepted evidence. Neither does the Oral Torah.
Here is another example of a solid fact. The studies on the Jewish Y-chromosome performed by Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona. Proving that the majority of Jews, both Sefaradi and Ashkenazi (excluding Ethiopians) are Semite and not Turks or East Asians. In fact the study also showed the close resemblance between Jewish and Arab DNA, confirming our Biblical origins going back to Isaac and Ishmael, Abraham's 2 oldest sons.
Here is the article that discussess the study:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E0D71338F93AA35756C0A9669C8B63
Yes Islamophobe, I agreed with you completely. My point was that according to our understanding and historic evidence there was a nation called Khazar. Those who use this to believe that all European Jews are Khazars are simply mistaken. There is much evidence to prove that Ashkenazi Judaism is directly related to the Israelites. We are in agreement.
muman613
PS: I am reading Rabbi Zelig Shachnowitz's book entitled "The Jewish Kingdom of Kuzar" published by Feldheim Publishers.
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muman63 and qq, when I said facts, I meant solid universally accepted evidence. Jewish law that is sometimes followed, sometimes not, depending on the the individuals practicing and the community involved, do not constitute, solid and universally accepted evidence. Neither does the Oral Torah.
Here is another example of a solid fact. The studies on the Jewish Y-chromosome performed by Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona. Proving that the majority of Jews, both Sefaradi and Ashkenazi (excluding Ethiopians) are Semite and not Turks or East Asians. In fact the study also showed the close resemblance between Jewish and Arab DNA, confirming our Biblical origins going back to Isaac and Ishmael, Abraham's 2 oldest sons.
Here is the article that discussess the study:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E0D71338F93AA35756C0A9669C8B63
I mentioned DNA and oral torah.
My point with the oral torah, is
The anti-semites don't claim that sephardim are descendents of khazars. ashkenazim share the same oral tradition as sephardim going back taught down the generations.
It is an irrelevance though, for jews to prove to anti-semites that we are jews.
And , as i'm sure you know, jews don't need science to tell them that their ancestors going way back were jews.(it's rare for 2 converts to marry)
And jews don't have anything against khazars or whoever. If they converted to judaism , they are jews.
jewish law defines who a jew is.
do you think anti-semites are going to say "oh, we only hate jews who are descended from khazars. But we love the "real" jews?" Anti-semites who live with european jews may say that, and maintain that those jews are khazars. But we know that they don't distinguish..
Here's another fact..
Some jewish kohanim, ashkenazim and sephardim have records of their ancesttal tribe going back generations, around 138 generations to Aharon the first kohen.
DNA is the only one anti-semites cannot put a "maybe" on.
They could claim jews manufactured this or that, that this is s forgery, and that is a forgery, just like holocaust deniers do With no evidence.. Like denying a huge event like a war, and claiming all evidence of it is forged.
If you have one proof, you don't need more. If you need more and more, then it suggests a problem with one of them.
Really the DNA proves it completely.
But it's an irrelevance, because
a)if jews need that to tell them they are jewish, then soemthing's wrong
b)jews don't need to prove to anti-semites that they are jews.
nevertheless, it's good to have an irrefutable proof to give them. So as to know how to answer them. But what did jews do before this DNA thing? perhaps similar to what some would say now.
I think rabbi kahane was asked it once. he said
If they think we are going to argue about whether we are jews or not, they have the wrong jew.. It's debasing oneself to even have the discussion. Sometimes they would give their argument, and rabbi kahane responded so ingeniously. One guy on talk radio splattered out all this crazy theory, and rabbi kahane replied, "and did you know abraham was half chinese" . The guy said "no, I didn't know that, that's very interesting". Rabbi kahane said, "yeah, and his mother was half italian" .. The radio host said "ok, next caller"
There was another one on youtube.. Some black guy starts this long rant, and one of teh things he says was that jews are not jews, because mount sinai is in saudi arabia, and jews don't look very arabian. The black guy went on and on, about other things too, and said "the truth hurts" . Kahane replied "Wait till you hear the answer".
He dealt with everything, and to the sinai in saudi arabia point, he replied "Actually, mount sinai is in the antarctica and jews look like penguins". Brilliant! he also went into how a jew is a jew it doesn't matter what race he is. I'm not suggesting rabbi kahane's answers would work for any situation, there were specific brilliant answers tailored for the particular people and format of event, and the things he was asked.. And they were the product of a very sharp mind. A man who could think on his feet like no one else.
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After a Jewish woman was raped, it must have been so difficult to raise the child knowing that the father was a rapist. Is there any way of knowing how many rapes occurred during a certain period and how many European converts to Judaism occurred?
Since converts to Judaism were put to death, I doubt there were very many converts.
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It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.
Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.
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It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.
Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.
Once again, leave Jewish law and beliefs out of this discussion. Just because I believe in flipppity floppity floo, doesn't entitle me to be the King of Papua New Guineau. Present universally acceptablle evidence to refute the Khazar lie.
Another fact is that most Jew bashers, wether Christian Identity cultists, Black HeBros, or Islamofascists will cite The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler. According to Koestler's own words, his motivation for writing the book was, to end the belief that Jews crucified Jesus, by rewriting the history of his own people. According to renowned Near East historian Bernard Lewis PhD, Koestler's theory is described as "supported by no evidence whatsoever".
Here is the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Tribe#cite_note-0
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Who is Arthur Koestler? ???
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It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.
Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.
Once again, leave Jewish law and beliefs out of this discussion. Just because I believe in flipppity floppity floo, doesn't entitle me to be the King of Papua New Guineau. Present universally acceptablle evidence to refute the Khazar lie.
Another fact is that most Jew bashers, wether Christian Identity cultists, Black HeBros, or Islamofascists will cite The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler. According to Koestler's own words, his motivation for writing the book was, to end the belief that Jews crucified Jesus, by rewriting the history of his own people. According to renowned Near East historian Bernard Lewis PhD, Koestler's theory is described as "supported by no evidence whatsoever".
Here is the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Tribe#cite_note-0
Another fact is that anti-semites will have endless amounts of theories and ideas to discredit Jews, and we can spend all of eternity trying to prove them wrong and for WHAT?
People who believe this obviously are not going to be convinced otherwise.
And why should we leave Jewish law out of this?
Israel is the Jewish homeland and all Jews are entitled to leave their. Why should we let anti-semites set the terms of the debate?
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I agree, nothing will convince these zombies. They are in love with hatred.
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This is not about convincing our enemies of anything. Most of them know that they are maliciously lying anyway. Do you think that any of the professional holocasut revisionists like David Duke or Ahmedinejad really believe it never happened. This is about how well do you understand your enemies' tactics. And do you know your own history well enough to present a valid defense to keep regular people from believing your enemies' propaganda. The anti-Semitic propganda machine is stronger than you think when it comes to swaying the borderline braindead MTV generation. How else do you think there are so many college kids taking up the Destroy Israel cause. International Solidarity Movement, Rachel Corrie come to mind?
Who is Arthur Koestler? ???
I left a link to wikipedia about the guy. Or use a search engine... you are sitting at a computer, right? Come on people, act like you can conduct on intelligent discussion. Don't make StørmFrønt look more intelligent by comparison.
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You would be wise to search the numbers of that supposed khazar tribe. It is impossible practically speaking that ALL of the various european Jewish communities, from troyes, to worms, to mainz, etc etc descended from a single khazar tribe. The conversion was not so huge, and it is believed that only the upper class elites actually converted. They were the ones slaughtered when the khazars were defeated, and the commoners retained their own religions through all that. So how did those other Jewish communities magically appear in Europe? And if they were insincere converts or forced converts by the king, as the khazar theory often says, why would they have persisted with their beliefs and remained Jewish after the khazar kingdom was destroyed?
It is documented that there were Jews in areas of Western Europe around 5th century towards the end of the Roman empire. Jews lived in present-day france in the 500's. What happened to them? Magically disappeared? Doubtful. The King of the Franks expelled Jews from a territory in 629. They settled somewhere else in Europe most likely. Charlemagne granted Jews freedoms after his conquests, so what Jews were these if there weren't any in Europe? The whole idea is absurd.
Another angle is the following. If there really were "real Jews" and "fake Jews," why would the supposed "real Jews " just have summarily accepted a group of phonies? Why wouldn't a single rabbi have written a document or letter or text warning against the fake Jews in Europe 'hijacking the faith?' Do you notice how stringent we are today about conversions and about people posing as Jews when really believing in idiocy (example black hebrews)? Rashi (a great rabbi of France) was universally recognized among Ashkenaz and Sephardim as an authority. If he was a faker, this couldn't be. There are others as well. The Rosh if I'm not mistaken, was a halachic authority for both askenaz and sephardim. There actually was a time of "phony Jews" in our history. It's documented in the Talmud. This would be the Samaritans. They had improper conversions and were insincere, for a long time actually acting as the enemy of the Jews despite declaring themselves Jews. They are written against strongly by 'real Jews.' in our writings. Sephardim never took issue with Ashkenazi Jews of Europe, so you must wonder why today Muslims and Israel-haters attempt to take issue with them.
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I don't buy the Khazar story any more than I buy the Liberty Ship hoax. The only people who ever talk about either one are Nazis. I would not be surprised if the Khazars never even existed.
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I don't buy the Khazar story any more than I buy the Liberty Ship hoax. The only people who ever talk about either one are Nazis. I would not be surprised if the Khazars never even existed.
Well then you would be surprised by reality because they are a documented people who did exist. It was a kingdom, and the king converted to judaism after hosting a theological debate. He was convinced by the rabbi's arguments. But their relevance is really what is in question. There isn't much relevance.
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Is there a source for this besides what Nazi sites say?
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C.F.
Yes there is both physical evidence that the Kuzars existed and there is the story which was passed down through the generations. I am reading a good book on the subject called "The Jewish Kingdom of Kuzar" by Rabbi Zelig Schachnowitz published by Feldheim books.
I dont think there is any dispute as to whether there was a nation of Kuzar.
According to wikipedia {and I know their reputation but I will provide further sources}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
In the 7th century CE, the Khazars founded an independent Khaganate in the Northern Caucasus along the Caspian Sea. Although the Khazars were initially Tengri shamanists, many of them converted to Christianity, Islam, and other religions. During the eighth or ninth century the state religion became Judaism. At their height, the Khazar khaganate and its tributaries controlled much of what is today southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, large portions of the Caucasus (including Circassia, Dagestan, Chechnya, and parts of Georgia), and the Crimea.
A letter in Hebrew dated AM 4746 (985–986) refers to "our lord David, the Khazar prince" who lived in Taman. The letter said that this David was visited by envoys from Kievan Rus to ask about religious matters — this could be connected to the Vladimir conversion which took place during the same time period. Taman was a principality of Kievan Rus around 988, so this successor state (if that is what it was) may have been conquered altogether. The authenticity of this letter, the Mandgelis Document, has however been questioned by such scholars as D. M. Dunlop.
Abraham ibn Daud, a twelfth-century Spanish rabbi, reported meeting Khazar rabbinical students in Toledo, and that they informed him that the "remnant of them is of the rabbinic faith." This reference indicates that some Khazars maintained ethnic, if not political, autonomy at least two centuries after the sack of Atil.
Petachiah of Ratisbon, a thirteenth-century rabbi and traveler, reported traveling through "Khazaria", though he gave few details of its inhabitants except to say that they lived amidst desolation in perpetual mourning.
CF, this would seem to confirm your belief that whites are Jews as caucasians are often thought of as being white.
Here is an honest link for Khazarian Jewish information including the ancient artifacts which prove a Jewish nation existed.
http://www.khazaria.com/
This site is a good explanation of what you are talking about, how antisemites are using the myth that all Ashkenaki Jews are descended from Khazars who are not racially connected to the Israelites. We know this is not true, as KWRBT pointed out through genetic testing and the Kohen gene. But this site definately says that the Khazars were a nation who converted to Judaism.
http://www.jewishpress.com/displayContent_new.cfm?mode=a§ionid=61&contentid=21499&contentName=The%20Khazar%20Myth%20and%20the%20New%20Anti-Semitism
I hope that this sheds some light on the issue....
Shalom,
muman613
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Is there a source for this besides what Nazi sites say?
I wouldn't have said that if there wasn't. I don't hold by the propaganda of nazi sites.
This is really a sick thing to ask. If nazi sites were the only source that khazars even existed, why would I be expressing certainty that they existed?
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I find the information on Wiki concerning the history of Jews in Ukraine interesting as this is my heritage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ukraine
I find the following most interesting:
The traditional measures of keeping Imperial Russia free of Jews failed when the main territory of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was annexed during the partitions of Poland. During the second (1793) and the third (1795) partitions, large populations of Jews were taken over by Russia, and Catherine II of Russia established the Pale of Settlement that included Congress Poland and Crimea.
During the 1821 anti-Jewish riots in Odessa after the death of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Constantinople, 14 Jews were killed. Some sources claim this episode as the first pogrom, [2] while according to others (such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, 1911 ed.) say the first pogrom was the 1859 riots in Odessa. The term became common after a large-scale wave of anti-Jewish violence swept southern Imperial Russia, including Ukraine, in 1881-1884, after Jews were wrongly blamed for the assassination of Tsar Alexander II.
In May 1882, Alexander III of Russia introduced temporary regulations called May Laws that stayed in effect for more than thirty years, until 1917. Systematic policies of discrimination, strict quotas on the number of Jews allowed to obtain education and professions caused widespread poverty and mass emigration. In 1886, an Edict of Expulsion was applied to Jews of Kiev. In 1893-1894, some areas of the Crimean peninsula were cut out of the Pale.
When Alexander III died in Crimea on October 20, 1894, according to Simon Dubnow: "as the body of the deceased was carried by railway to St. Petersburg, the same rails were carrying the Jewish exiles from Yalta to the Pale. The reign of Alexander III ended symbolically. It began with pogroms and concluded with expulsions."[3]
My fathers family {Uman} moved to America in the year 1907 which seems to be years of pogroms in the Ukraine. My mothers family was from Poland, which united with Ukraine to form the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
From the founding of the Kingdom of Poland in the 10th century through the creation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1569, Poland was one of the most tolerant countries in Europe. It became home to one of the world's largest and most vibrant Jewish communities. The Jewish community in the territory of Ukraine during the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was one of the largest and most important ethnic groups in Ukraine.
Here is wikis page on Uman : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uman
The Massacre of Uman : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Uman
The Masscre of Uman was the 1768 massacre of the Jews and Poles at Uman, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by the Ukrainian Haidamak rebel army.
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Most historians give an estimate of number of Poles and Jews who were killed in the “massacre of Uman” as to be between 12,000 and 20,000 (it includes Polish army units and private militia). The most conservative estimate is given by Gonta during his trial (2,000) while some of the Jewish historians put the number close to 50,000. The anniversary of the commencement of the massacre, Tammuz 5, henceforth known as the “Evil Decree of Uman,” was observed as a fast and by a special prayer. Nachman of Breslov settled in Uman, and before his death there, he said, “the souls of the martyrs (slaughtered by Gonta) await me”. After his death in 1811, the Hasidim of Breslov used to come to Uman in large numbers to prostrate themselves at his grave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nachman_of_Breslov
muman613
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Tell me if I'm wrong but it sounded like the Jews of that time were warning about a Cosack invasion and treachery by local leaders but there wasn't enough evidence. The Coasacks then invaded with the help of a 5th column and started killing Poles and Jews. Is this correct?
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Muman613 and NorthwestJTF. Please stay on topic. Cossack era Poland is not what is being discussed.
I don't buy the Khazar story any more than I buy the Liberty Ship hoax. The only people who ever talk about either one are Nazis. I would not be surprised if the Khazars never even existed.
Rabbi Yehuda Halevi, who lived in Muslim occupied Spain during the 11th century wrote a work titled the Kuzari. At this time, Khazaria was seeing it's last days as a sovereign kingdom. Himself never having visited the kingdom or met any actual Khazars, hypothesized on why of all the major world religions (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc.) would a people closer to Attila the Hun than King David take upon themselves the obligations of the world's least popular religion.
His work served more as an explanation of what Judaism is and what it offers that other faiths do not, rather than a historical documentary on the Khazars.
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I have heard of letters between rabbis outside and jews inside khazaria. It was a jewish state of sorts there. And it's nothing to be ashamed of.
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And there is documented physical evidence that a Jewish nation existed there.
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It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.
Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.
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And why should we leave Jewish law out of this?
Israel is the Jewish homeland and all Jews are entitled to live there. Why should we let anti-semites set the terms of the debate?
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The reason that I believe that Jewish law, as in oral tradition as opposed to Biblical scripture does not have a place in this discussion is becuase, Jewish law is not the common denominator, even among Jews themselves. While both Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews believe in a common oral tradition, Ethiopian Jews who have been proven through genetic surveys not to be Semites, but descendants of conversts just like the Khazars, do not have the same oral traditions as the Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews. This is due to the fact that since their conversion by Jewish Red Sea merchants, they have remained isolated from every other Jewish community.
The issue here is if Jews descended from Khazars heavily outnumber the Jews descended from Israelites, then we may not have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel. This is the case that anti-semitic groups are trying to make.
Suppose hypothetically that Hitler had succeeded in wiping out every Ashkenazi Jew, and his ally the Mufti had succeeded in wiping out every Sefardic Jew (as he had been planning to do once the British were driven from their Middle East colonies). All that were left now were Ethiopian Jews, whom they would regard as just another black cult. With no other Jews around, would they have a legitimate claim to Israel having not a single drop of Israelite blood in their veins?
According to the Bible, Israel is the only piece of real estate promised by G-d to only one people as an eternal inheritance. This people being the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. After our exodus from Egypt several times this promise along with obligations of fullfilling G-d's commandments were put upon the Israelites and the stranger/convert (singular) IN THEIR (plural) MIDST.
From this we see that a nation of converts alone, has no claim to Israel. But only as a minority accepted into an overwhelmingly Israelite majority. Similar to our laws of the Kosher diet (ie: nullified in the majority/bitul b'rov, in 60/bitul b'shishim, in 100/bitul b'meah).
And from what we've discussed thus far, from genetic, linguistic, and cultural evidence, the descendants of the Khazars represent a miniscule portion of the Jewish nation as a whole, if any at all, and since the fall of the Khazar kingdom at the turn of the 1st millenium, those few that survived and did not convert out of Judaism were absorbed into mainstream Jewish communities.
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What exactly are the Khazars (ethnically, culturally, racially, etc.)?
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<snip>
I have no idea what any of your reasoning here is at all.. I am watching a video at the same time, but still..
Look..
you said that if most jews are khazars we have no claim to the land of israel.
Firstly, jews are not mostly of that descent. Neither Ashkenazim or of course Sefaradim, are not.
Secondly converts have the same claim to israel as any jew
Our claim to israel is -not- because out ancestors were there , I mean, (we were always there in small numbers at least) but, ruled there, 2000 years ago. That's not our claim to be there. Though some may feel that way, and rabbi kahane used that.
And even when rabbi kahane made the argument about the 2000 years.. As he did on one morning show on youtube. The host said, how can I justify that to myself. Rabbi Kahane said, "well, I don't care, whether you can justify it to yourself or not" , to which the host laughed. And Rabbi Kahane said, many jews -do- feel that way, that it is their home. And so that is the issue that he is dealing with, and the arab problem in israel.
The real reason is the torah says it's our land. And it doesn't matter if one is a convert or not.
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In the 7th century C.E., the Khazars founded an independent Khaganate in the Northern Caucasus along the Caspian Sea. Although the Khazars were initially Tengri shamanists, many of them converted to Christianity, Islam, and other religions. During the eighth or ninth century the state religion became Judaism. At their height, the Khazar khaganate and its tributaries controlled much of what is today southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, large portions of the Caucasus (including Circassia, Dagestan, Chechnya, and parts of Georgia), and the Crimea.
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if ethopians are not descendeed from israelites, and they follow a non orthodox (but serious unlike Reform e.t.c) form of judaism, and they believe that one cannot convert, then they have a problem.
For them. And would mean that maybe they have no basis for believing they have a claim to the land of israel. But whose business is that other than theirs. That's entirely nonsensical speculation anyway.. And nothing whatsoever to do with khazars.
I have no idea what your reasoning is at all
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It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.
Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.
And why should we leave Jewish law out of this?
Israel is the Jewish homeland and all Jews are entitled to live there. Why should we let anti-semites set the terms of the debate?
The reason that I believe that Jewish law, as in oral tradition as opposed to Biblical scripture does not have a place in this discussion is becuase, Jewish law is not the common denominator, even among Jews themselves. While both Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews believe in a common oral tradition, Ethiopian Jews who have been proven through genetic surveys not to be Semites, but descendants of conversts just like the Khazars, do not have the same oral traditions as the Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews. This is due to the fact that since their conversion by Jewish Red Sea merchants, they have remained isolated from every other Jewish community.
The issue here is if Jews descended from Khazars heavily outnumber the Jews descended from Israelites, then we may not have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel. This is the case that anti-semitic groups are trying to make.
It sounds as though your beliefs about the Ethiopian Jews are incorrect. Also, I'm not sure the basis of the statement "if Jews descended from Khazars heavily outnumber the Jews descended from Israelites, then we may not have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel." You have no way of knowing what percentage of people are descendent from converts, what percentage from Israelites, what percentage of Khazars. Aside from that, there is nowhere stated that if the population becomes to full of converts, suddenly our mandate on the land is lost. The Torah says clearly we will be driven from the land if we sin, and if not we will stay and receive blessings. It states clearly, not metaphor, several times that we are an eternal nation. So if you think too high a percentage of converts makes us 'no longer the Jewish nation,' and no longer with a right to Israel, then this means that that will never happen (ie we're eternal nation so it will never become primarily converts to "disqualify us" so to speak in your strange hypothetical). But in reality, I think such an idea is absurd (although I could be wrong) and so really it's saying that no matter what happens, always there will be a remnant that survives and keeps the nation going, even if it's small, or mostly converts, or all kohanim, or anything like that. That's what the eternal nation means. I'm not sure what you base this argument on about too many or too little converts.
Why do you on the one hand say Jewish law should be kept out of the discussion but then on the other hand, you cite the Torah and an explanation from jewish law as to why that should be the case! You say jewish law shouldn't be considered.... because in Jewish law, the nation has to be primarily descended from such and such and in kosher law, a 60th of such and such.... lol, how is this an explanation for excluding Jewish law? You are using Jewish law here! In that case incorporate the whole body. In that case, you have no argument. A convert is fully Jewish. And obviously so are his descendents. Even if we WERE mostly khazarian, which I don't think is even remotely true or would be possible to prove even if it was true...
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Our claim to israel is -not- because out ancestors were there , I mean, (we were always there in small numbers at least) but, ruled there, 2000 years ago. That's not our claim to be there. Though some may feel that way, and rabbi kahane used that.
I think he said in one talk that it's not ours because of 2000 years ago because then the arabs can say it's theirs because of 60 years ago. He said it's not ours because 2000 yrs ago we ruled and lived here but because the Torah says it's ours and always will be. As you said later in your post. But the 2000 yrs ago argument I'm not so certain that was how Rabbi Kahane used it (the first way you describe, the second way in the morning show yes).
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The Kazars were a nation and Kingdom. According to the books their king was interested in finding out the truth and following which Religion. He summoned Christian and Muslim representatives (because they were growing their influence at the time) and asked them why he should follow their religion. (actualy he also called for representatives and teachers of certain Philosophy also). So as they were speaking expecially the Chritians and Muslims they kept proving that G-d is real and that He revealed himself in front of Million of people (the Children of Israel). So then the king sent for a representative of the children of Israel to come and talk.
To make a long story short the King of Kuzaria had debates and talks between the different religions and philosophers and then choose Judaism out of all of them. So he converted, many of the nobility converted, and what happened to the rest of the population remains a mystery. BUT their was tolerence in the kingdom and also their were great Rabbis (for example from Spain) who wrote to the King (and the royal house who were Jewish) asking about the kingdom, and some went to visit, etc. Eventually the Kingdom was conquered by outside fources and it was no more.
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Our claim to israel is -not- because out ancestors were there , I mean, (we were always there in small numbers at least) but, ruled there, 2000 years ago. That's not our claim to be there. Though some may feel that way, and rabbi kahane used that.
I think he said in one talk that it's not ours because of 2000 years ago because then the arabs can say it's theirs because of 60 years ago. He said it's not ours because 2000 yrs ago we ruled and lived here but because the Torah says it's ours and always will be. As you said later in your post. But the 2000 yrs ago argument I'm not so certain that was how Rabbi Kahane used it (the first way you describe, the second way in the morning show yes).
I only described one way thta rabbi kahane used that argument, that was on the morning show.
He did often express the jewish connection to the land.. to win hearts I think. And it's good in the sense that nobody can argue with a feeling. And many jews do not believe in the torah but still love israel - for that feeling perhaps.
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Kuzar is not a myth. It is part of Jewish history. Here is an excellent book I have on the subject. I have studied Kuzar and read the Kuzari. It is ridiculous to call it a myth. Why do you have a need to dismiss it as myth?
The Jewish Kingdom of Kuzar
The Rise and Fall of the Legendary Country of Converts
Rabbi Zelig Schachnowitz
Feldheim Publishers
ISBN: 9781583309292
Pages: 208
Synopsis: Over one thousand years ago, did the population of an entire pagan country, nestled between the shores of the Black and Caspian Seas and secluded in the forests of the Crimea, really convert to Judaism? Or is it just the stuff of legend?
http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=978-1-58330-929-2 (http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=978-1-58330-929-2)
Once again, leave Jewish law and beliefs out of this discussion. Just because I believe in flipppity floppity floo, doesn't entitle me to be the King of Papua New Guineau.
That's absurd. You can't call yourself a Jew if you don't believe in Jewish law. Judaism is what makes a Jew a Jew to begin with. If there's no such thing as the Torah, G-d forbid, then what on earth defines you as being a "Jew"? What tells you that if a mother is Jewish and the father is not then the child is Jewish? What defines the rules for what makes a Jew? It's preposterous to say you are Jewish if you deny the very thing that defines you as Jewish.
Have you even read the Kuzari? It would do you good.
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Kahane-was-right BT, we do have a way of knowing which Jews were descended entirely from Israelites, and which converted from from other nations such as the Khazars, and those are the genetic studies conducted by University of Arizona researchers which confirmed that the majority of Jews both Sephardic and Ashkenazic are Israelites. The example of Kashrut is just an analogy.
That study was done on the Y-Chromosome (paternal lineage). Here's a link to a study done on Mitochondrial DNA (maternal lineage) that shows the majority of Jews are descended from 4 women. Confirmation of another Biblical fact.
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf
Throughout the Bible, the land of Israel is repeatedly promised to the DESCENDANTS of Abraham, through his son Isaac, through his son Jacob. And that is to be taken literally as blood descendants. Only later is this promise extended to the stranger/convert (singular) that dwells among you (plural). It's not rocket science.
Shlomo, you missed about 3 pages worth of discussion, and then you jump down my throat. I never said it was a myth I know what their history is. Jewish law about conversions is not a valid argument here to disprove the false accusations about our our people, because many Jews can't even come to a consensus on Jewish law, let alone the rest of the world. Biblical scripture as a historical reference on the other hand is accepted throughout the entire civilized world. Results of genetic surveys don't lie. Neither do linguistic studies.
The whole point of this thread was to get you guys to do research on your own history and present facts to refute anti-Semitic myths.
QQ, either read the posts or watch videos, not both at the same time, then maybe you'll be able to follow my logic.
Am I using too many big words for you guys? Pee pee kaka poo poo? ???
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Kuzar is not a myth. It is part of Jewish history. Here is an excellent book I have on the subject. I have studied Kuzar and read the Kuzari. It is ridiculous to call it a myth. Why do you have a need to dismiss it as myth?
The Jewish Kingdom of Kuzar
The Rise and Fall of the Legendary Country of Converts
Rabbi Zelig Schachnowitz
Feldheim Publishers
ISBN: 9781583309292
Pages: 208
Synopsis: Over one thousand years ago, did the population of an entire pagan country, nestled between the shores of the Black and Caspian Seas and secluded in the forests of the Crimea, really convert to Judaism? Or is it just the stuff of legend?
http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=978-1-58330-929-2 (http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=978-1-58330-929-2)
Once again, leave Jewish law and beliefs out of this discussion. Just because I believe in flipppity floppity floo, doesn't entitle me to be the King of Papua New Guineau.
That's absurd. You can't call yourself a Jew if you don't believe in Jewish law. Judaism is what makes a Jew a Jew to begin with. If there's no such thing as the Torah, G-d forbid, then what on earth defines you as being a "Jew"? What tells you that if a mother is Jewish and the father is not then the child is Jewish? What defines the rules for what makes a Jew? It's preposterous to say you are Jewish if you deny the very thing that defines you as Jewish.
Have you even read the Kuzari? It would do you good.
Shlomo,
I am reading this book too. I have quoted it twice in this thread... Some people just dont want to believe the facts...
muman613
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Kahane-was-right BT, we do have a way of knowing which Jews were descended entirely from Israelites, and which converted from from other nations such as the Khazars,
NO, we don't. These methods are very indirect and VERY speculative.
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Throughout the Bible, the land of Israel is repeatedly promised to the DESCENDANTS of Abraham, through his son Isaac, through his son Jacob. And that is to be taken literally as blood descendants. Only later is this promise extended to the stranger/convert (singular) that dwells among you (plural). It's not rocket science.
So what if it's later? If you challenge the authority of what comes 'later,' then why not challenge the authority of the earlier pronouncements too? You have a bizarre line of reasoning here. Once they join the Jewish nation (ie convert), they are part of the nation. The nation has a promise to the land regardless of what percentage of people join in.
Either you accept the biblical account and Jewish law or you don't. If you do, then you accept it all. Then there's no argument. If you don't accept the biblical account, that's another story entirely, and it's not really for us to argue it since that is where the whole concept comes from and I don't have to "justify" it. If one doesn't believe it, too bad. I don't believe koran, communist manifesto and lots of other stuff. But you can't use half a Jewish concept to prove your case and then say the Jewish concepts taken to their completion somehow "don't count" and should be excluded from discussion.
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He's a theory.
The thing at issue here, is that islamophobe is not jewish, and his religious beliefs define a jew in a certain way, whatever that is, but not allowing converts.
And he expects jews here to buy into his beliefs. And he's not willing to -admit- that what he is presenting or pretending, is reasoning, is actually just his own beliefs. That is why he has refused to address the refutations presented to him.
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He's a theory.
The thing at issue here, is that islamophobe is not jewish, and his religious beliefs define a jew in a certain way, whatever that is, but not allowing converts.
And he expects jews here to buy into his beliefs. And he's not willing to -admit- that what he is presenting or pretending, is reasoning, is actually just his own beliefs. That is why he has refused to address the refutations presented to him.
Wrong again QQ. I am Jewish, and the only beliefs I expect other Jews and anyone else reading the thread to buy into are that we ARE the blood descendants of the Israelites of the Bible. How about you go on youtube and run a search on the word "Khazar" and see how many malicious anti-semitic videos you'll pull up.
The whole point of this thread was to bring evidence against those claims. Because the braindead MTV generation that loves a good conspiracy theory believes the lies in those videos.
And I never said that Judaism does not allow converts. Once again you are twisting my words without bothering to read them.
And Muman613 I know who the medieval Khazars were, thank you very much. I read the wikipedia article whose introduction you copied, pasted, and posted word for word.
And what facts are you guys trying presenting that I refused to address?
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This entire thing about genetics equates to materialism. Our true identities are not our physical bodies.
Also, it is a grave sin to exclude true converts because they are completely Jewish. There are four types of people the Torah tells us to be extra careful with... Torah scholars, orphans, widows, and converts.
You either except the Torah or you do not.
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Schlomo, maybe genetics is meaningless to you, but to the entire gentile world, our physical bodies as you say ARE our identities. And the again the reason I want to leave Jewish law (Torah she'b'aal peh/oral tradition) out of this discussion is because it is not accepted as a legitmate source outside the Jewish religion. This is not the same as Biblical scripture (Torah she'b'ktav) which is accepted not only by Jews, but also by Christians, and even by athiests and agnostics who see historical fact in it.
This would be like a Muslim trying to make the case to the civilized world that because the Koran says any peice of land once Muslim is forever Muslim, and the Koran does not allow a Muslim to sell land to an infidel, so any contracts made between the Yishuv and the Ottoman Turks are null and void. And the Koran also says that infidels living in Muslim lands like Spain (once Muslim, always Muslim) must accept the status of Dhimmis (second class citizens) and pay the jizya (extortion money). Well the civilized world doesn't believe in the Koran, so that whole argument falls flat on it's face.
Likewise, when making a case about our claim to Israel, to not only Jews but gentiles as well, oral tradition is NOT a common denominator.
I know what the Bible says about converts, thank you very much.
The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were strangers in Egypt. I am the L-RD your G-d.
Leviticus 19:34
if ethopians are not descendeed from israelites, and they follow a non orthodox (but serious unlike Reform e.t.c) form of judaism, and they believe that one cannot convert, then they have a problem.
For them. And would mean that maybe they have no basis for believing they have a claim to the land of israel. But whose business is that other than theirs. That's entirely nonsensical speculation anyway.. And nothing whatsoever to do with khazars.
I have no idea what your reasoning is at all
The reason the case of Ethiopian Jews is relevant, is because like the Khazars, an Asian nation foreign to the blood line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, accepted upon themselves the obligations of Judaism, the Ethiopians are a nation that is just as foreign to that blood line, did the same. I never said that neither Ethiopians, nor Khazars weren't Jews if their conversions were authentic. Don't twist my words. If you can't see the obvious comparison, then I am using too many big words for you.
Not only is genetics relevant for this discussion, it is relevant throughout the Bible. Some good examples are:
1. A bastard can only marry another bastard to legitmize the next generation.
2. Egyptian converts can only marry into the general population, after 3 generations.
3. Moabites can never be accepted as converts, no matter how long after the Exodus.
4. Amalekites are to be exterminated entirely, no matter how many genrations after the incident at Rephidim.
5. G-d's promise to redeem the Jewish people not on our own merit but on His promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.
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Not only is genetics relevant for this discussion, it is relevant throughout the Bible. Some good examples are:
1. A bastard can only marry another bastard to legitmize the next generation.
2. Egyptian converts can only marry into the general population, after 3 generations.
3. Moabites can never be accepted as converts, no matter how long after the Exodus.
4. Amalekites are to be exterminated entirely, no matter how many genrations after the incident at Rephidim.
5. G-d's promise to redeem the Jewish people not on our own merit but on His promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.
Well, the law about marrying Moabites was modified... Remember the story of Ruth:
1 And it came to pass in the days when the judges judged, that there was a famine in the land. And a certain man of Beth-lehem in Judah went to sojourn in the field of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons. 2 And the name of the man was Elimelech, and the name of his wife Naomi, and the name of his two sons Mahlon and Chilion, Ephrathites of Beth-lehem in Judah. And they came into the field of Moab, and continued there. 3 And Elimelech Naomi's husband died; and she was left, and her two sons. 4 And they took them wives of the women of Moab: the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth; and they dwelt there about ten years. 5 And Mahlon and Chilion died both of them; and the woman was left of her two children and of her husband. 6 Then she arose with her daughters-in-law, that she might return from the field of Moab; for she had heard in the field of Moab how that the LORD had remembered His people in giving them bread.
muman613
Ruth of biblical fame was originally a Moabite princess. She later converted to Judaism and was the ancestress of King David, and ultimately, the Messiah.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/644180/jewish/What-was-Ruths-ancestry.htm
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islamophobe, I disagree that our bodies are our identities. Do you know why we wear clothes? Because deep down in our subconscious, it's our way of saying "I am not my body. Look at my soul - not at my flesh. I'm in here."
Also, I did not say that genetics weren't important. Without the body, we'd have no vehicle to accomplish anything in this physical world. But do not make the mistake to think that you are your body. You body is more like the horse for your soul.
Genetics may play an important role sometimes and might even define certain physical attributes... but the body dies and the soul continues on. The body is only a tool and too many materialistic people make the moronic assumption that they are their bodies. It doesn't even take a rocket scientist to know that our thoughts, desires, motivations, ethics, culture, memories, communication and all of our emotions [in their entirety from love to hate] have no DNA. The list goes on.
And trying to convince an antisemitic peace of garbage that he is wrong is a lesson in futility. There isn't any logic you can provide them to change their minds. They live in fantasy because the fantasy they concocted is completely based on an end result they want. Logic can't get past the emotions of insane people. We try to reach those who are reachable.
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And trying to convince an antisemitic peace of garbage that he is wrong is a lesson in futility. There isn't any logic you can provide them to change their minds. They live in fantasy because the fantasy they concocted is completely based on an end result they want. Logic can't get past the emotions of insane people. We try to reach those who are reachable.
That's exactly what I said, Jeffguy. The goblins who persist in believing in the Khazar lie, in the Liberty Ship hoax, the blood-matzo libel, or any of the other infinite Nazi fairytales that flow through the world's sewage systems are beyond hope. They are like Pharaoh--G-d has hardened their hearts so they are incapable of leaving their demonic deception. Their only purpose on this earth is to be fuel for the eternal fire.
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Muman613 Ruth's conversion was controversial at the time and is the exception to the rule. Someone more knowledgeable on the issue than myself can elaborate on why.
Shlomo, in terms of desires, motivations, and emotions genetics plays a very big part. It's been proven that some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism and other addictions, as well as depression and other psychological problems. It does not change the fact that we still have free choice, so if you blow a months paycheck on booze and leave your family to do without, or you go postal and hurt yourself or those around you, you are still responsible. These predispositions can looked at as G-d's way of testing us individually. We all have free choice, but your genetics for better or for worse influences the decisions you make.
Again I have to reiterrate that I did not start this thread to convince anti-Semites of anything. Duke, Ahmedinejad, Christian identity cultists, and black hebros themselves do not believe a word of their own lies. They do not need to be convinced. But if you do a google or youtube search on the word 'Khazar', you will find countless articles about the ZOG, the protocols, Talmudic racism, the zionist usurpation of pal-estine, the 'holohoax', Muhamad Al-Dura, USS Liberty, Mossad involvement in ABu Ghraib, etc. The lies about us are being spread by the bucket loads and we need to counter those lies with facts. The crowd we need to reach are the college kids that are currently being indoctrinated by marxist professors. The lies spread about us are not only dangerous to us but also to these naive young kids. Just run a google search on Rachel Corrie and you'll see what I'm talking about.