JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joe Gutfeld on February 12, 2007, 09:14:44 PM
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שומו שמים על דברי בלע כאלו נגד משה רבינו ע"ה
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I disagree that you should be making fun out of Moses.
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I don't know why Chaim prases Moses so much. If Moses is so smart, then how come he walked in the dessart for 40 years!! All you have to do is walk in a straight line!! The smart thing that Moses should have done is to marry the pharroh's daughter, then free the Jews that way. But, NO!! The dope had to do it the hard way. That's why he's the biggest dope in Jewish history.
You've gotta be kidding me. The Israelites did not schlep their valises for 40 years! Oy can you imagine the complaining? They wandered for two years and camped out the rest.
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Joe Gutfeld writes: "...But, NO!! The dope had to do it the hard way. That's why he's the biggest dope in Jewish history..."
Sure sounds to me like someone here is more than a little familiar with "dope".
Joe, if what you write is true, then where does that place YOU in the pantheon of Jewish leadership?
Allow me to therefore compose a brief new Jewish prayer:
"Blessed Art Thou O Lord Thy G-d, King Of The Universe, Who, in Thy Infinite Wisdom, both hath chosen Moshe Rabbeinu to deliver your people Israel from the bondage of Egypt, hath revealed directly to him Your Law and Torah; and in so doing established Thy people Israel in their own Land, deeded to them for eternity, so that Thy Final Redemption be fulfilled."
*(oh!...and before I forget,...Joe Gutfeld says that You chose 'the biggest dope in Jewish History to do all of these things, rather than someone like himself who's actually a genius.)
Amen
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Does that short sentence in hebrew state that long paragraph that i completely disagree with?!*rubs eyes* I think i'm seeing things...
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I guess the people who are insulting me didn't see the movie "The Ten Commendments" The truth is in that movie about how stupid Moses really is.
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We learn about Moses from The Torah, not movies. The movie also said women gave their jewelry for the golden calf when women weren't even involved.
They were, Yacov --
And Aaron said to them, "Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them to me" (Shemot/Exodus 32:2).
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We learn about Moses from The Torah, not movies. The movie also said women gave their jewelry for the golden calf when women weren't even involved.
Well said!! Movies are great for entertainment however people should look to more substantial sources for historical information.
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In some cases, movies are more accurate than you think.
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In some cases, movies are more accurate than you think.
You must be joking
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In some cases, movies are more accurate than you think.
I actually partially agree with this. Movies can express the truth in more apprehending and meaningful ways. It sends out signals and messages but however if the movie is directed by a someone with biased views then the truth is manipulated. Some people can learn a lot from movies, it teaches you things so you will remember them and can visual understand them. The visuals are an addition to the truth of words.
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In some cases, movies are more accurate than you think.
I actually partially agree with this. Movies can express the truth in more apprehending and meaningful ways. It sends out signals and messages but however if the movie is directed by a someone with biased views then the truth is manipulated. Some people can learn a lot from movies, it teaches you things so you will remember them and can visual understand them. The visuals are an addition to the truth of words.
Movies can be made true to history but in most cases directors take creative license with facts to fit time frames, make the plot more interesting or just suite personal opinions. This is a disservice to history since many people believe what the see on the screen to be the absolute facts. Creative license is fine for entertainment value however when used it should be stated clearly at the start of the production. Nothing disturbs me more when people use movies to create revisionist history to fit popular opinion or social causes.
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We learn about Moses from The Torah, not movies. The movie also said women gave their jewelry for the golden calf when women weren't even involved.
They were, Yacov --
And Aaron said to them, "Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them to me" (Shemot/Exodus 32:2).
Yephora, it's always good seeing your posts.
This is the first time I have to disagree with you. Aaron did not want to create a golden calf. He did so to avoid a Jewish civil war. (The civil war erupted eventually in any event, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai and ordered the Levites to kill 3,000 of the golden calf worshippers who refused to change their evil ways.)
But in regard to the women, it is a basic tenet of Jewish belief that the women did not WANT the golden calf. They wanted to remain loyal to G-d and to Moses. Just as Aaron did not want it, but unfortunately went along with it for the sake of "peace", the women urged the men in vain NOT to commit this terrible sin. You can argue that the loyal Jews, both Aaron and the women, still are guilty because they cooperated with the abomination for whatever reason. But clearly their behavior is far less sinful than that of those who fervently wanted the Jews to become a nation of idolators. When Moses descended from Mount Sinai, the women immediately sided with him and immediately expressed great regret that they had not resisted the idolatry.
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Aaron was very smart. He told the Men to make their women tear give over their earings since he thought that the women wouldn't give up their jewelery so easily and by the time they are able to convince the women to do so, Moses would have came down from Mount Sinai already and no sin would have occured. However, the men were so eager to make the calf that they took off their own jewelery so Aaron was not able to delay them from sinning.
There is proof directly in the bible of this, since the next verse says that they removed the jewelery from their own ears but in the previous verse Aaron told them to get the Jewelery from their daughters wives and sons.
Aaron was trying to delay the nation from sinning the whole time so that Moses would arrive before they commit the sin (he knew they would kill him otherwise) but it didn't work. Even when they made the calf, he announced a party for the following day so they wouldn't worship it yet but it didn't work and they started worshiping it and feasting right away. G-d still blamed Aaron for the golden calf. I think G-d wanted Aaron to not compromise and let himself be killed if necessary than to have anything to do with the sin but everyone has their own opinion.
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I'm glad that there is such a great debate on this thread. Debate is good on such an interesting topic. This has to go on what you believe. I still believe in my views on Moses. If anyone agrees with me, please let me know.
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Jimmy, thanks for your kind words and reply. I always enjoy reading your well written posts, and even though you say you disagree, this was no exception.
Yacov wrote "women weren't even involved" in the golden calf incident.
Contrarily, the Book of Exodus says women were involved in the golden calf incident.
With respect to wants, motives, intents, degrees of sinfulness and other things the Biblical account is silent on, I will leave that to others who know more than me.
I was replying narrowly to the one point: the Bible clearly states that women were involved. There I don't think we would disagree.
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I have to disagree with Chaim about Moses in this week's show. The reason Moses was kicked out was because after he was raised in the Pharoh's house, he found out that Moses was really a Jew and kicked him out of Egypt. He came back later and freed the Jews even through Moses should have kept his mouth shut, married the Pharoh's daughter and freed the Jews that way. But Moses is a dope and did it the hard way. Everybody knows that, Chaim!!!
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Moses is an Idiot, Chaim. Face reality!!
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I have to disagree with Chaim about Moses in this week's show. The reason Moses was kicked out was because after he was raised in the Pharoh's house, he found out that Moses was really a Jew and kicked him out of Egypt. He came back later and freed the Jews even through Moses should have kept his mouth shut, married the Pharoh's daughter and freed the Jews that way. But Moses is a dope and did it the hard way. Everybody knows that, Chaim!!!
That nonsense about the love story between Moses and the Pharoh's daughter was only in the movie, it never really happened. It shows a lot that you put more faith in some holywood film than in the Torah.
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Yes it did. I believe it. It just proves what people mean when they say, "dumb Jew Bastard". It refered to Moses
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You are a troll.
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Hey, no insults here!!! OK!
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Whoever Moses was, and whatever happened to him, he was more popular and respected then any of us were. He was a prophet. Prophets are not stupid.
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This "Prophet" was stupid
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That's right
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שומע מה? אם אפשר לדעת ?
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Please respond in english.
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Please respond in English.
Oh...I assumed that you know Hebrew,
Who are you talking about thet "if he will hear it his ears will be in flames"?
(I'm sorry if I'm wrote something wrong, I'm trying my best)
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I'm telling the truth of this so-called hero in Jewish history
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I'm telling the truth of this so-called hero in Jewish history
The torah was revealed to his people! How can you say he was a "so-called" hero as if its nothing............Come on Joe, ITS MOSES!!
Haschem allowed him to work miracles!
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Moses could have done it the easy way by marring the "throne princess" and freed the Jews that way. Just like Queen Esther.
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ABC television just had on "The Ten Camandments" this past Saturday. I still think that Moses is the biggest dope in jewish history. No one can change my mind on it.
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ABC television just had on "The Ten Camandments" this past Saturday. I still think that Moses is the biggest dope in jewish history. No one can change my mind on it.
I am not an expert on the life of Moses however calling him the biggest dope in Jewish history seems to be disrespectfull of a great figure in Jewish history. Chaim stated in his show last week that Moses did make some mistakes doing the things G-D asked him to do however, lets face it he after all Moses was human. The thing is I don't think G-d in all his wisdom would have picked a dope to do his work here on earth. I m not saying any of this to rake up problems I was just surprised that not many other people feel as I do with this . Maybe I am wrong in my observation of this.
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Re: Moses smart or dope?
Ha'shem chose Moses, who was a man humbled by a life-long speech impediment, to speak to the world's most powerful leader...Pharoah of Egypt.
Moses at first desisted this choice...he being "thick of speech" felt unworthy. This shows both Moses' humble nature, as well as his wisdom.
When Ha'Shem looked around for someone to do His work for Him (the liberation of the Hebrews from bondage in Egypt followed by their receiving Torah and becoming a sovereign nation), and He chose Moses, then He must have known "the right man, at the right place, for the right job".
If Ha'Shem felt a "dope" was the best choice, so be it.
Would that we had more of such Jewish dopes walking the planet today!
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[jokingly]...who but a dope would put up with a bunch of unruly Hebrews for longer than 10 minutes?
[ironically]...only a dope would have argued directly with G-d, begging him to not kill the Hebrews when in fact they well deserved such a punishment!
[realistically]...it's a good thing there were no central air & heat thermostats during that 40 years in wandering!....the Hebrews would have extended the time to 140 years; what with their constant fighting each other to "change the temperature"!
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Re: Moses smart or dope?
Ha'shem chose Moses, who was a man humbled by a life-long speech impediment, to speak to the world's most powerful leader...Pharoah of Egypt.
Moses at first desisted this choice...he being "thick of speech" felt unworthy. This shows both Moses' humble nature, as well as his wisdom.
When Ha'Shem looked around for someone to do His work for Him (the liberation of the Hebrews from bondage in Egypt followed by their receiving Torah and becoming a sovereign nation), and He chose Moses, then He must have known "the right man, at the right place, for the right job".
If Ha'Shem felt a "dope" was the best choice, so be it.
Would that we had more of such Jewish dopes walking the planet today!
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[jokingly]...who but a dope would put up with a bunch of unruly Hebrews for longer than 10 minutes?
[ironically]...only a dope would have argued directly with G-d, begging him to not kill the Hebrews when in fact they well deserved such a punishment!
[realistically]...it's a good thing there were no central air & heat thermostats during that 40 years in wandering!....the Hebrews would have extended the time to 140 years; what with their constant fighting each other to "change the temperature"!
Great post Massuh, We do need more people the likes of Moses today.
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Cjd, you are entitled to speak your mind. I try not to bash anyone's opinion on any of my posts. Just as long you don't get personal if you disagree with me. That's all I ask from anyone.
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I still believe in my view on this topic.
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Re: Moses smart or dope?
Ha'shem chose Moses, who was a man humbled by a life-long speech impediment, to speak to the world's most powerful leader...Pharoah of Egypt.
Moses at first desisted this choice...he being "thick of speech" felt unworthy. This shows both Moses' humble nature, as well as his wisdom.
When Ha'Shem looked around for someone to do His work for Him (the liberation of the Hebrews from bondage in Egypt followed by their receiving Torah and becoming a sovereign nation), and He chose Moses, then He must have known "the right man, at the right place, for the right job".
If Ha'Shem felt a "dope" was the best choice, so be it.
Would that we had more of such Jewish dopes walking the planet today!
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[jokingly]...who but a dope would put up with a bunch of unruly Hebrews for longer than 10 minutes?
[ironically]...only a dope would have argued directly with G-d, begging him to not kill the Hebrews when in fact they well deserved such a punishment!
[realistically]...it's a good thing there were no central air & heat thermostats during that 40 years in wandering!....the Hebrews would have extended the time to 140 years; what with their constant fighting each other to "change the temperature"!
Did you make up the jokes?
Could you explain the last part?
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If Moshe was such a dope why is he the only man ever to be called "eved Hashem", God's slave. Also, in the Yigdal prayer, it says "has not risen in Israel a prophet like Moses"
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I have been looking for this thread for some time this is the thread that caused Yephora to leave the forum.
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Everyone always said it was FOTL that caused Yephora to leave I was almost sure it wasn't after reading this thread again I see it was not Fruit. Poor Fruit got a bum rap on this.
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Moshe was no dope. G-d prevented the Jews of that generation from reaching Israel by confusing them and having them wander for 40 years. It didn't matter what Moshe did, G-d destined it and so it would be.
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Everyone always said it was FOTL that caused Yephora to leave I was almost sure it wasn't after reading this thread again I see it was not Fruit. Poor Fruit got a bum rap on this.
How did Yephora leave because of this? She simply disagreed with what we said in defending the women.
It was my understanding at the time that Yephora was more disturbed about the slander on Moses than she was about the woman remark. I think she was as disturbed and surprised as I was that this slur on Moses didn't stir up more protest on the forum than it did. Why would Joe resurrect this thread? This was the first time in my life that I had ever heard anyone have a bad thing to say about Moses. Moses is a beloved Heroic figure in both the Jewish and Christian faith.