JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: MarZutra on September 15, 2008, 09:36:34 PM
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Dear Chavarim,
Firstly I'd like to wish you all L'SHANA TOVA TIKATEVU VETEJATEMU - Happy 5769! With that the following past few years we have witnessed many different tragic events with regards to Israel and America and have delved into many a discussion and debate.
Below is a highly credible work called "To Eliminate the Opiate Vol. 1" by Rabbi/Dr. Marvin S. Antelman which explains the history and workings of the Erev Rav: "Jewish" anti-Jew movements with goals of eliminating Jewry, Judaism and Israel for the Platonic quest towards a Global Utopian Order. The groups within are all historically based and work hand in hand with those Gentile peoples/groups that work tirelessly towards the elimination of Christianity. Both are Communalist-Humanist and here is the Jewish side of this reality at work today undermining Israel, Jewry, Judaism, America and the Constitution.
E-BOOK "To Eliminate the Opiate": http://www.scribd.com/doc/4040430/Eliminate-the-Opiate
It is my opinion that every Jew should read this work...
Enjoy :'(
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alot of it is guilt by association.
A classic thing he discovered in NY public library, was Moses Mendellesohn's ordination certificate. Most would say "I didn't know he was a rabbi, but it's possible".
Infact, it is a sabbatean thing, full of codewords, completely unlike any normal ordination certificate
It shows the ordinations going back from Mendelssohn, to Jonathan Eibeschutz(who ordained him), back to Shabbetai Tzvi(1600s).
He printed it in hebrew in his book about Eibeschutz - bchor satan.
Many of his references are to Gershom Scholem, a secular jewish professor that is very familiar with jewish mystical texts. One book I flicked through as I read Vol 2 was "The messianic idea in judaism" by him. Another book Rabbi Antelman referenced often was about Sufism.
Rabbi Antelman is the same guy that invented the bullets with porn in them to use against terrorists. And he has come up with what he thinks is a cure for aids, it can cause liver damage but onr or two cracks are pedalling it. He is a multi-talented genius, and somewhat eccentric.
But his 2 books, vol 1 and 2, should be judged on their own merits.
I ran into them from Chamish. His work at least has references!
And good ones too. He chose to make sure all his references were good authoritative sources.
The years he wrote the books were along the lines of, vol 1 in 1970, and vol2 in 2000.
When I read reading them, vol1 -was- tricky to find but I found it available in book form from the texas noachides. (vendyljones site), rabbi antelman pointed me to it. But if it's available in e-book form as it seems to be here then that's great.
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Shalom,
Chamish doesnt think much of JTF and Chaim. I have written him and told him that Chaim is much more important to the movement. BTW, I dont believe this Sabatean thing at all. It is a rehash of just about every conspiracy theory.
muman613
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Shalom,
Chamish doesnt think much of JTF and Chaim.
that's because Chaim doesn't think much of Chamish.
Fact is, he uncovered about Rabin.
You have to use your intelligence here
I have written him and told him that Chaim is much more important to the movement. BTW, I dont believe this Sabatean thing at all. It is a rehash of just about every conspiracy theory.
muman613
I don't know who you wrote to but i'm sure they'll realise you are off your rocker.
Obviously the leader of JTF is more important to JTF than anybody else.
Chamish has nothing to do with JTF. Neither has Rabbi Antelman. Neither does the beaver that climbed up the nearby tree last week.
I can't be bothered to ask you to define the "sabbatean thing". I just mentioned Moses Mendelssohn though, and Rabbi Jonathan Eibeschutz. Eibeschutz is not believed to be sabbatean by mainstream religious rabbis, because he was a Gaon, and well respected. But they aren't familiar with this ordination certificate, and haven't given much thought to the amulets he wrote out. Rabbi Yaakov Emden (great rabbi, and I think an ancestor of rabbi kahane) suspected Eibeschutz and faught against him.
I don't quite know what you want to deny and I don't think you do either
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Shalom,
Chamish doesnt think much of JTF and Chaim.
that's because Chaim doesn't think much of Chamish.
Fact is, he uncovered about Rabin.
You have to use your intelligence here
I have written him and told him that Chaim is much more important to the movement. BTW, I dont believe this Sabatean thing at all. It is a rehash of just about every conspiracy theory.
muman613
I don't know who you wrote to but i'm sure they'll realise you are off your rocker.
Obviously the leader of JTF is more important to JTF than anybody else.
Chamish has nothing to do with JTF. Neither has Rabbi Antelman. Neither does the beaver that climbed up the nearby tree last week.
I can't be bothered to ask you to define the "sabbatean thing". I just mentioned Moses Mendelssohn though, and Rabbi Jonathan Eibeschutz. Eibeschutz is not believed to be sabbatean by mainstream religious rabbis, because he was a Gaon, and well respected. But they aren't familiar with this ordination certificate, and haven't given much thought to the amulets he wrote out. Rabbi Yaakov Emden (great rabbi, and I think an ancestor of rabbi kahane) suspected Eibeschutz and faught against him.
I don't quite know what you want to deny and I don't think you do either
q_q_,
You are entitle to believe whatever kokamamie theory you like. But I stand by my assesment of Chamish. Just doing a search on this site for the name 'Chamish' comes up with quite a littany of facts which make me more inclined to disbelieve what he writes.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,5787.msg48312.html#msg48312
Shlomo says:
<snip>
#3) Barry Chamish is a crazy person. He is not someone you should get all your information from. He, definitely, does not carry this "documentable and incontrovertible proof" you desire.
<snip>
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,6231.msg74480.html#msg74480
OdKahaneChai says:
Barry Chamish was invited to a Holocaust Deniers Conference.
He's a nutcase, that Chamish. He was on the Tamar Yonah a few weeks ago - and wow! He reminded me of a mad scientist character from a movie.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,24607.msg263306.html#msg263306
CHAIM SAYS:
<snip>
He's completely insane.
<snip>
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,24607.msg263861.html#msg263861
CHAIM SAYS:
<snip>
Unfortunately, I know Chamish personally.
Chamish is an assimilated, intermarried, self-hating Jew who collaborates with neo-Nazi web sites. He's not only insane, he's also the scum of the earth.
Chamish has no following whatsoever among any real conservatives in the U.S., and he is detested and ridiculed by the rightwing in Israel.
Chamish serves his establishment masters by propagating conspiracy theories that make the right look like a bunch of lunatics.
<snip>
Chamish is in business to sell books. There will always be minds willing to believe just about any conspiracy theory as long as there are 'some' so-called facts. I dont believe my understanding of Chamish is too far from the majority.
I have some other emails from people who correspond with Chamish and they dont agree with his approach. Even if he were speaking some truth his method is deficient. If he is right I will have to apologize, but at this time I do not feel that I have said anything untrue.
muman613
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chamish's presentation is bad, but he proved about rabin, and his evidence is so good that you do'nt need to trust him on anything of it, you can view the evidence he presents. You don't like him, read Natan Gefen if you want, his presentation is better, same evidence presented. But his is all in hebrew.
it's difficult for you to say anything "untrue", you haven't really said anything factual.
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chamish's presentation is bad, but he proved about rabin, and his evidence is so good that you do'nt need to trust him on anything. You don't like him, read Natan Gefen if you want, his presentation is better. But his is all in hebrew.
it's difficult for you to say anything "untrue", you haven't really said anything factual.
The fact is I quoted Chaim who's opinion is well respected, amongst others... That is a fact...
muman613
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chamish's presentation is bad, but he proved about rabin, and his evidence is so good that you do'nt need to trust him on anything. You don't like him, read Natan Gefen if you want, his presentation is better. But his is all in hebrew.
it's difficult for you to say anything "untrue", you haven't really said anything factual.
The fact is I quoted Chaim who's opinion is well respected, amongst others... That is a fact...
muman613
wow, well done
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by the way, you know chaim believes that the rabin thing was a conspiracy too. I think his is that israeli intelligence wanted to do a staged assassination have Yigal Amir fire blanks, and Yigal Amir changed the bullets to real ones.
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by the way, you know chaim believes that the rabin thing was a conspiracy too. I think his is that israeli intelligence wanted to do a staged assassination have Yigal Amir fire blanks, and Yigal Amir changed the bullets to real ones.
Ok q_q_,
You got me... I will look into this more and try to be able to answer your issues with more 'facts'.
muman613
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by the way, you know chaim believes that the rabin thing was a conspiracy too. I think his is that israeli intelligence wanted to do a staged assassination have Yigal Amir fire blanks, and Yigal Amir changed the bullets to real ones.
Ok q_q_,
You got me... I will look into this more and try to be able to answer your issues with more 'facts'.
muman613
I can give you more facts if you want..
Facts that suit your argument on your level of "analysis"
Chamish had worked as a Ufologist prior to looking into the Rabin Assassination
How's that for a fact to discredit all arguments and evidence he provides on anything!
And what do you mean you'll "look into this more". Look into what more? How to discredit Chamish?
It doesn't look like you'd look into Chamish's claims more. I warn you his presentation is bad. Why not start by giving some thought as to how to go about it, where the evidence is. Are you willing to spend any money on this buying anything from Chamish? I doubt it.
And suppose it was a conspiracy. So what? Have you ever asked the question of DOES IT MATTER?
Or do you just think that every single potential conspiracy deserves to be looked into?
Big deal, the rabin thing proves israeli government corruption. Or that the israeli government is sick. AMONA proves the israeli government is sick, far more clearly so even the average shmoe can understand it. Video evidence available free with no textual explanation required. And the world knows the israeli government is corrupt. Still, it may help a revolution, maybe. But Amona sickens me more. If that doesn't create change, I don't have much hope that knowledge of the Rabin thing would.
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In my opinion, much of what is written within Rabbi Antelman's works is both logical and is backed, in most cases, by facts. Shabbati Zvi did exist with many followers, one being Jacob Frank who headed the Frankists. Like Chaim founded JTF or Kahane JDL, all these other movements did have agendas and many followers and still do.
Most if not all are basically listed on even Wikipedia. A very good Gentile movement is the British Fabian Socialist Society, If you look at them you will see many of the most notable authors and "thinkers" of the last and this century....too...their links to other like minded organizations: UN, ACLU, CFR, ADL etc.
Also, in my opinion, I feel Chamish cannot be dismissed out of hand, however, one cannot take Chamish verbatim because I've personally found that he tends to not check his facts but seek out logical but unsubstantiated coincidences. I believe his work "Who Murdered Yitzhak Rabin?" is his best work and only real work that can be taken very seriously. However, the rest are piecemeal of fact and fantasy due to, in my opinion and others, that Chamish went insane after the death of his son.
His basic theory is, imo, true but Chamish tends to reach for things that just are not there or not true/factually correct... but cannot be dismissed out of hand because he does uncover and say many things that most others will not...
my two cents...
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In my opinion, much of what is written within Rabbi Antelman's works is both logical and is backed, in most cases, but facts.
alot of guilt by association.
The references in the sufi chapter are all to one book. (fair enough, but it could lead to some narrow view, and he thinks he knows LOADS about sufism. And the book he refers to is a pop culture kind of book STILL, it's a popular accurate book and I asked some sufis about some of the things there, some quotes from sufi gurus, they couldn't refute it. (The stuff like "to the pagan I am as a pagan, e.t.c." winning people over and stuff, a bit like Paul, but Sufism sees itself as a container)
I think he was right to say that Sufism predated islam, and saw it as a container, and they probably had to adopt it to survive. Sufis might agree on that.
But because of his guilt by association thing he puts all sufis in the evil bag. He thinks Sheikh Palazzi is a bad guy, he is clearly wrong there and can get to faulty conclusions. Sheikh Palazzi wrote somewhere online that the bektashi are heterodox, just as there are heterodox movements within the jewish people. He is against this.
There are faults, as with most books, but many pluses too. I enjoyed following through his books and the main books he referenced. His find of Moses Mendelssohn's ordination certificate was huge, and it condemns Eibeschutz.
One of his most outrageous facts was not documented well..
He wrote that Hitler's something(father? father's father?) was jewish, and 9 months before hitler was born, it was purim, to the date. Sabbateans would have an orgy on purim. So he said Hitler was conceived on purim. (something like that anyway, there may have been a 3 months somewhere). He said that Hitler's birth is recorded in rabbinical records.. I emailed him about it, he hadn't copied it, but he said he and Rabbi (Dubovik?) "of betar", witnessed it.
So, I didn't bother to remember it clearly.. It wasn't well documented.
He is more organised than Chamish, but that's not hard.
And he does provide references. And given the claims that he makes, that is really big..
They are good references. They are to authoritative books , and he doesn't twist them. He uses them accurately.
In the beginning of vol 1 or 2 he provides a really interesting picture of the family that Rabbi Yaakov Emden came from, a great rabbinical family, and some sabbatean families, and then how a branch of the great rabbinical family was subverted, and Karl Marx was produced. Then he shows that Rabbi Meir Kahane was from this great rabbinical family, (not subverted of course). His reference there was "The Golden Chain". I wasn't able to get that book though.
I did enjoy going through the books he referenced often. I mentioned one already.
I got the Quigley one but it was huge and not that interesting for me.
Shabbati Zvi did exist with many followers, one being Jacob Frank who headed the Frankists. Like Chaim founded JTF or Kahane JDL, all these other movements did have agendas and many followers and still do.
Different place, different time period.
But yes, Jacob Frank , it seems, was a Sabbatean theologically, and I guess he certainly identified as such. wouldn't suprise me.. I never studied him much but it seems to be the case.
<snip>
Also, in my opinion, I feel Chamish cannot be dismissed out of hand, however, one cannot take Chamish verbatim because I've personally found that he tends to not check his facts but seek out logical but unsubstantiated coincidences. I believe his work "Who Murdered Yitzhak Rabin?" is his best work and only real work that can be taken very seriously. However, the rest are piecemeal of fact and fantasy due to, in my opinion and others, that Chamish went insane after the death of his son.
I think his book "who murdered yitzchak rabin" is a nightmare to read like all his others.
The one that was just about possible to read was "Save Israel" , which he calls "his hamlet".
That had an index, which REALLY helps! I quite enjoyed it at times.
What I found very useful was the Video that accompanies the Rabin book. The video has KEY video evidence. (some now online, but some not online)..
And he explains fine in the video. It is a lecture to an audience. They understood what he was saying. And one can always pause it and contemplate, and try to make sense of it.
That video makes all the difference.
And with the Video and Book, The key thing next to the video, are Rabin's Xrays which he includes a copy of.
Really, the Rabin thing is NOT the key to chamish. It is not his only real work and it is not his most important thing. And it is not the goal.
Rabin was a launching pad to explain to people about the CFR, and Chamish did that very well.
He described them in one or two very well documented articles
His basic theory is, imo, true but Chamish tends to reach for things that just are not there or not true/factually correct... but cannot be dismissed out of hand because he does uncover and say many things that most others will not...
my two cents...
There is always the problem of what parts are true and have a good basis, and one doesn't always have time to look into it.
The CFR sruff was great.. The rabin stuff was great.
Look. He had a hunch about Daniel Pipes. Call it baseless, but he was right. He has a very creative detective like mind that is difficult to follow, and it's obvious that sometimes he has good sources that he doesn't divulge, and sometimes he just can't be bothered to say how he knows something. He really just enjoys the story. It's annoying, because for me at least, it's not enjoyable to wrap my head around it, and I don't want just juicy highlights , I want to see the basis for things.
He had his instincts on Pipes, and backed it up -afterwards-.
Essentially though, I would agree with your conclusion, that he does uncover things, it is always worth a read. But I don't take it as gospel either. Unless it is REALLY REALLY well documented. Sometimes googling some things he mentions brings up great references.
Chamish mentioned the CFR, and Antelman too.. I think Rabbi Antelman said that their annual report is available from the CFR headquarters in NY. And a membership list.
Googling brought this up (this is actually an interesting site.. though conspiracies aren't really my area, apart from a few things)
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread60689/pg1
It has some interesting quotes from
The CFR?s Annual Report for July 1, 1993-June 30, 1994
How basically what is said in the mettings cannot be repeated.
Chamish has found alot of the material produced by the CFR to be very anti israel. The CFR is at a minimum, a very influential lobbying group. But more than that.. many former presidents and important people are members. And their membership list is a public thing.
Infact, there's something interesting on youtube with Ron Paul talking about the CFR. (of course, i'm not for Ron Paul after how Chaim has described him.. But that doesn't invalidate everything he says). That's just an interesting footnote. A presidential candidate that often mentioned the US constitution, that many patriotic americans quite liked, he is not a loony, and he he has gotten as far as he has, and he talks about it quite candidly. Doesn't prove anything but it's just interesting, I found that clip yesterday.
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MarZutra, I am listening to this tomorrow. Thanks.
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Im sorry MarZutra- it took me a WEEK to get to today- listening NOW.
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Im sorry MarZutra- it took me a WEEK to get to today- listening NOW.
It's Text!
have you just given away that you read aloud? ; - )
By the way. Reading is a good thing to do on shabbat, because you can read without breaking shabbat! It passes the time and reading can be time well spent. I have often printed things and read them over shabbat. That ebook has an option to download it. No prob starting reading now, but Yom Kippur is coming. You could read it over that too.. unless you want to stay in shul all the dozen+ hours!
I refer to reading on paper.. it's well worth printing it out. It can be difficult to read a screen anyway, for a whole book.
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Im sorry MarZutra- it took me a WEEK to get to today- listening NOW.
It's Text!
have you just given away that you read aloud? ; - )
By the way. Reading is a good thing to do on shabbat, because you can read without breaking shabbat! It passes the time and reading can be time well spent. I have often printed things and read them over shabbat. That ebook has an option to download it. No prob starting reading now, but Yom Kippur is coming. You could read it over that too.. unless you want to stay in shul all the dozen+ hours!
I refer to reading on paper.. it's well worth printing it out. It can be difficult to read a screen anyway, for a whole book.
HAHAHAHA shhhh!!! I HAVE to read out loud- this is kinda sad. Im not done.
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Im sorry MarZutra- it took me a WEEK to get to today- listening NOW.
It's Text!
have you just given away that you read aloud? ; - )
By the way. Reading is a good thing to do on shabbat, because you can read without breaking shabbat! It passes the time and reading can be time well spent. I have often printed things and read them over shabbat. That ebook has an option to download it. No prob starting reading now, but Yom Kippur is coming. You could read it over that too.. unless you want to stay in shul all the dozen+ hours!
I refer to reading on paper.. it's well worth printing it out. It can be difficult to read a screen anyway, for a whole book.
HAHAHAHA shhhh!!! I HAVE to read out loud- this is kinda sad. Im not done.
you know there is a program that reads things out for you. text to speech
http://www.rohitab.com/freevoice/index.html
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TY q-q When I read to myself- I forget a lot- I dont know why, I have to read something 5x- I had to study my brains out just to graduate from HS & in college- and that was just DRAMA class - haha -At times, I miss college, it was so much fun, like a carefree world, u know? It seems that things have gotten so evil and hateful- people have become so cold. If you smile at someone, they give u a dirty look. I better just follow Davids instruction to not talk to anyone, and this kills me, b/c I really AM nice to people in general. So- David says NO TALKING TO ANYONE ANYMORE. :'(
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TY q-q When I read to myself- I forget a lot- I dont know why, I have to read something 5x- I had to study my brains out just to graduate from HS & in college- and that was just DRAMA class - haha -At times, I miss college, it was so much fun, like a carefree world, u know? It seems that things have gotten so evil and hateful- people have become so cold. If you smile at someone, they give u a dirty look. I better just follow Davids instruction to not talk to anyone, and this kills me, b/c I really AM nice to people in general. So- David says NO TALKING TO ANYONE ANYMORE. :'(
Listening to a voice the mind can switch off in between so you have to hear it a few times so that your mind is alert through the whole text! That's probably a short term memory thing.
But if you read it and think about it and if it's interesting then you think about it, then you'll remember it.
I must warn you though, rabbi antelman's 2 books are not a smooth read. One has to read it a few times.. It is a bit of a frustrating read.
Tamar Yonah interviewed him, but put off doing the interview because his books were so tricky to get one's head around!
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UNFORTUNATELY what MarZutra posted- this is truth. SAD.
I dont know what to do all over again. All of this hatred directed at our people on this email thread- it is draining me, I am ALWAYS in a psy-ops argument- I feel so weak, and get angry- I cant just IGNORE this, it is there- EVERYTHING is the fault of us Jews- EVERYTHING- this is what they say, even though I give proof- nothing penetrates. These people call themselves Christians, they are nothing like some of the people on this forum that ARE Christians- I am confused with all of this. I am so tired, and people ALWAYS come to ME- to fight- and I AM TIRED. TIRED. When does this persection EVER end?
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UNFORTUNATELY what MarZutra posted- this is truth. SAD.
I dont know what to do all over again. All of this hatred directed at our people on this email thread- it is draining me, I am ALWAYS in a psy-ops argument- I feel so weak, and get angry- I cant just IGNORE this, it is there- EVERYTHING is the fault of us Jews- EVERYTHING- this is what they say, even though I give proof- nothing penetrates. These people call themselves Christians, they are nothing like some of the people on this forum that ARE Christians- I am confused with all of this. I am so tired, and people ALWAYS come to ME- to fight- and I AM TIRED. TIRED. When does this persection EVER end?
Leave the email thread!
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UNFORTUNATELY what MarZutra posted- this is truth. SAD.
I dont know what to do all over again. All of this hatred directed at our people on this email thread- it is draining me, I am ALWAYS in a psy-ops argument- I feel so weak, and get angry- I cant just IGNORE this, it is there- EVERYTHING is the fault of us Jews- EVERYTHING- this is what they say, even though I give proof- nothing penetrates. These people call themselves Christians, they are nothing like some of the people on this forum that ARE Christians- I am confused with all of this. I am so tired, and people ALWAYS come to ME- to fight- and I AM TIRED. TIRED. When does this persection EVER end?
Leave the email thread!
q_q- & leave my 2 brothers ALONE? David and my other brother, they will be alone. THERE ARE 3 members of JTF on this thread- and they do NOTHING while the Jew-Hatred CONTINUES. I WILL NOT FORGET this either.
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UNFORTUNATELY what MarZutra posted- this is truth. SAD.
I dont know what to do all over again. All of this hatred directed at our people on this email thread- it is draining me, I am ALWAYS in a psy-ops argument- I feel so weak, and get angry- I cant just IGNORE this, it is there- EVERYTHING is the fault of us Jews- EVERYTHING- this is what they say, even though I give proof- nothing penetrates. These people call themselves Christians, they are nothing like some of the people on this forum that ARE Christians- I am confused with all of this. I am so tired, and people ALWAYS come to ME- to fight- and I AM TIRED. TIRED. When does this persection EVER end?
Leave the email thread!
q_q- & leave my 2 brothers ALONE? David and my other brother, they will be alone. THERE ARE 3 members of JTF on this thread- and they do NOTHING while the Jew-Hatred CONTINUES. I WILL NOT FORGET this either.
The same advice goes for them too!
There isn't that much good that can be done on an anti-semitic email list.
The good is that the neo nazis are cornered off into an email list.
Maybe they are interested in knowing how neo nazis think, but that's something else, and they probably know by now anyway
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Infact, there's something interesting on youtube with Ron Paul talking about the CFR. (of course, i'm not for Ron Paul after how Chaim has described him.. But that doesn't invalidate everything he says). That's just an interesting footnote. A presidential candidate that often mentioned the US constitution, that many patriotic americans quite liked, he is not a loony, and he he has gotten as far as he has, and he talks about it quite candidly. Doesn't prove anything but it's just interesting, I found that clip yesterday.
I am not an expert on this stuff like you guys are and it could be a bit out of my league. I have some catching up to do and need to start reading more books about people writring of the current situation of the world we live in today and the science behind it. However, I have some knowledge of history and current affairs and think I can intervene a little. First of all, why would anyone care about Ron Paul. The man is the most virulent anti-semite in this country. He is David Duke times 100. The man's theories are so out of whack, he is one of the major proponents in the accusation saying 9/11 was a conspiracy against the American people by the Mossad and Israel. According to him and his honkies from the deep conferdate south, he says that the Jews were in on all of this and the Arabs never took any part. He has made many accusations that Jews are seeking to destroy the world. How come this "expert" fails to recognize all the other people int he world who have much more influence over world politics than the Jews? He is typical backward, KKK man who grew up thinking the Jew brought the plague to EUrope. My grandfather in WWII was stationed for a while in Alabama, I believe. THere was a nice sign there he used to read, "Jews and Colors Off the Grass". This is Ron Paul's backyard. Why give this idiot any credit? It doesn't take a genius to see G-dlessness in the works. Big money, big players, big egos.. Nothing new about this. Every greedy, self-rigtheous politican. 60 years ago, we bomb the hell out of our enemies. Today we play Mr. Nice Person and let our enemies bomb the hell out of us. Is it conspiracy or sheer lunacy???
And, did someone mention that one of these conspiracy theory authors was a ufologist?? Oh man... please... I don't want people on this site telling me the Government is covering up secrets from Roswell and that X-Files TV show is based on historical events. Where in Torah do we read about space aliens from outerspace coming to Earth? G-d is the G-d of Earth, not planet Xeon. Some people do anything they can to grab your attention. Why not, if it makes them a best seller?
If we want real conspiracies just look outside your house at all the stupid people. Blind leading the blind into a pit.. I still hold my theory that everyone is stupid. Here we all are decrying the HOlocaust of the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s, yet over 1,000,000 babies are brutally butchered each year by greedy scumsucking abortion doctors protected by the law. Even the losers Hannity and Colmes went on to defend the abortion procedure as being a "legal medical procedure". They were not referring to women who were risking death, they were just talking about seflish girls who took pride in living a life of sex and pleasure over raising a human being into the world. Today, people have priorties mixed up. We learned it in school. We learned it from friends and family. We were told to be compassionate and by doing so, means to cut your own wrist, to help the poor unforunate person, your enemy. We are told the person who has less is entitled to what we have. Many Americans cry about the economy as they go to Wal-Mart an by the pair of jeans that cost $1.00 cheaper. Now you cannot even find an American made pair of jeans anymore. Everyone says Bush's fault, so lets go elect Barack Hussein, he will bring "CHANGE" (Hey whitey, can I spare you some change.. LOL). The world around us is immersed in a life of moral decay and corruption. Don't just look up to your politician, but look to the average person and their lifestyle. As far as some of your theories, that USA, Europe and Russia are uniting together to form a G-dless society, I think you are part correct and part incorrect. You see, there is no organization here. Rather people are succumbing to their lusts and lack of morals. Most politicians are a smiling face who just want to be in power. Remember George Wahab hugging the gay priest, saying "we all are sinners, its ok".
Remember the time when if a person called their leader a piece of #@*# like we do to our leaders, that person could lose their head? In the times of Melech David what would be the punishment for rebelling against your ruler? Well as you can see the mentailty of people today is childish, there is little honor. We live our little fake fantasy lives and until we have a Jewish king or leader who will restore order and a religious society based on Torah principles, we are doomed. Yes, we should hang murderers, rapists, adulterers, repeat homosexual offenders. We should imprison those who hurt others and support causes that endanger the life of Jewish (and CHristian) people. If a black or arab man says "We dont like you, Himey, Hitler should have finished the job", we would have them beaten and imprisoned. Well, whats the use of dreaming.. In a truly Utopian society, this would happen.
Anyway, back to reality, there is a gay marriage going to take place in my extended Jewish family of a cousin. I am thinking of a way to crash it. Daily I pray to Hashem to find a way to destroy this wedding. This world is nothing but torture for me, many times I wish I was just dead or not born. Conspiracies? Who made my cousin this way? She also murdered her baby with an abortion. She had sex with a man, but of course she is born gay as we are told. Ignorance? What a stupid world I live in.. Our synagogues (churches too) are electing gay female rabbis as their heads. Anything associated with true religion is banned and reviled. Anything countering feminism, black supremacy and homosexuality is also banned. Of course, people who abused religion in the past brought us to where we are today. The cycle of chaos of a world headed for destruction. Did we Jews not lose Yerushalayim when we lost our faith in Hashem?
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Infact, there's something interesting on youtube with Ron Paul talking about the CFR. (of course, i'm not for Ron Paul after how Chaim has described him.. But that doesn't invalidate everything he says). That's just an interesting footnote. A presidential candidate that often mentioned the US constitution, that many patriotic americans quite liked, he is not a loony, and he he has gotten as far as he has, and he talks about it quite candidly. Doesn't prove anything but it's just interesting, I found that clip yesterday.
I am not an expert on this stuff like you guys are and it could be a bit out of my league. I have some catching up to do and need to start reading more books about people writring of the current situation of the world we live in today and the science behind it. However, I have some knowledge of history and current affairs and think I can intervene a little. First of all, why would anyone care about Ron Paul. The man is the most virulent anti-semite in this country. He is David Duke times 100. The man's theories are so out of whack, he is one of the major proponents in the accusation saying 9/11 was a conspiracy against the American people by the Mossad and Israel.
I don't know much about him except that he is not pro israel.
I don't care about him either.
<snip>
And, did someone mention that one of these conspiracy theory authors was a ufologist??
Oh man... please... I don't want people on this site telling me the Government is covering up secrets from Roswell and that X-Files TV show is based on historical events.
I don't focus on theories But Theoretical question for you.
If a man from a drunk comes out of a mental institution, stumbles on something important, and publicises it, and it's not theory, but hard fact. Then that doesn't invalidate what he publicised. Especially if we can prove that he didn't make it up. He just brought the facts into the public domain. Or, he brought them into the public domain, and some news channels publicised them more.
The person might tell you that aliens came down. But that is not relevant, and doesn't invalidate the facts that they produced.
That is a theoretical case.
Do you accept my point?
Yes or No
Where in Torah do we read about space aliens from outerspace coming to Earth? G-d is the G-d of Earth, not planet Xeon. Some people do anything they can to grab your attention. Why not, if it makes them a best seller?
I can think of 2 places where SOME rabbis have commentated that it COULD be a reference to aliens. There are other less supernatural explanations.
One in Genesis - nefilim.
Another in Nach . book of Judges.
a third example is Ezekiel's vision, but no jewish commentator and probably no religious commentator has made such a case!
<snip> Our synagogues (churches too) are electing gay female rabbis as their heads. Anything associated with true religion is banned and reviled. Anything countering feminism, black supremacy and homosexuality is also banned. Of course, people who abused religion in the past brought us to where we are today. The cycle of chaos of a world headed for destruction. Did we Jews not lose Yerushalayim when we lost our faith in Hashem?
they are not "our synagogues" , they are not synagogues.
reform is not our religion.
The ultra orthodox shut all this out as much as possible, and build their own growing society. If you really can't bare the world, and you want to be religious, then that is an option!
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Shalom,
Chamish doesnt think much of JTF and Chaim. I have written him and told him that Chaim is much more important to the movement. BTW, I dont believe this Sabatean thing at all. It is a rehash of just about every conspiracy theory.
muman613
I agree with muman. Chamish is a nut case and the sabatean/illuminati stuff is pure garbage. Tell me you don't believe this stuff. I suppose people are entitled to believe what ever nutty conspiracy stuff they want to believe but JTF does not support this type of fiction.
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<snip>
Chamish is a nut case and the sabatean/illuminati stuff is pure garbage. Tell me you don't believe this stuff. I suppose people are entitled to believe what ever nutty conspiracy stuff they want to believe but JTF does not support this type of fiction.
Chamish is not convincing on the sabbatean/illuminati stuff.. infact he hardly mentions the illuminati anyway. (maybe you're trying to use him as a scapegoat to criticise rabbi antelman.. I'm sure you're familiar with neither in any depth. There is really no substance to your argument).
rabbi antelman's work has some great stuff in it, some shocking stuff, but it is a bit random, and I didn't see much evidence for illuminati or powerful sabbatean control..
nobody has really defended that.. You are arguing with nobody and picking weak links, and just using chamish as the target for your attacks.
Let's talk Chamish, since that's the name you mention there.
Chamish's best work is on Rabin. Would you dismiss that as nutty conspiracy stuff?
I doubt that you would write a post serious enough to contend Barry Chamish's case, to contend the evidence that he publicised, that Yigal Amir did not kill rabin, and israeli intelligence did.
I doubt that you are aware of the evidence that he publicised, or that you would present the evidence and show how he twisted it into nutty conspiracy stuff.
I'm sure you can put together a more intelligent factual case than muman, but I doubt that you will. And if not willing to deal with substance, it's better not to criticise at all, it boils down to name calling.
You say JTF does not support "nutty conspiracy stuff" "this type of fiction"
You haven't dealt with a word of chamish's evidence.
Just saying he's a nutter. And JTF doesn't support nutty conspiracies.
Rhetoric, and poor rhetoric, because JTF accepts the following conspiracy theory written by an ex webmaster you now know to be a nutter.
(infact, most of us knew all along that he was a nutter!)
(that doesn't mean everything he writes is nonsense, i'm just using your reasoning against chamish and applying that to you, or to JTF whose position you represent)
http://www.jtf.org/israel/israel.rabin.assassination.htm
This doesn't look like the official story to me.
It includes no evidence, and it claims to know the motives of the people involved.
I suppose you might say that it's not a nutty conspiracy, because the person that wrote it is not a nutter... Ah, hang on.. He is a nutter. But you didn't know it at the time. Would that explain why it was not nutty when he wrote it, but now perhaps it is nutty?
http://www.jtf.org/israel/israel.rabin.assassination.htm
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The Shabak plan was to get Amir to think that he would be assassinating Rabin, when in fact, Raviv was supposed to replace the bullets in Amir's pistol with blanks. Then, when Amir would fire the blanks and the attempted assassination would be averted, Rabin would be hailed as a great hero and the "horrible" right-wing, religious Sefardic Jews would be universally reviled.
The day after the attempted assassination, Raviv was to hold a press conference with Shabak
taking credit for preventing the killing by placing blanks in the killer's weapon.
In fact, Rabin's wife, Leah, stated publicly that she was not disturbed when she heard the shots being fired, because she was assured by her Shabak bodyguards that the shots were only blanks.
..
Raviv did indeed replace the bullets in Amir's pistol with blanks. However, Amir checked the bullets in the pistol, discovered that they were blanks, and then replaced the blanks with real bullets again.
So what was supposed to be a staged attempted assassination turned into a real assassination.
"
So, that's the JTF position?
I've seen Chamish provide more evidence than that article has! At the end of the day though, both are stating a conspiracy theory.. And you would concede that the person that wrote it for JTF is a nutter.
You can't argue against conspiracy theories, against nutters writing conspiracy theories, when JTF accepts both of those themselves.
And by the way, when I talk of Chamish on Rabin, i'm not talking about ANY of Chamish's specific theories e.g. what the motives are. Just the facts the he publicised. Facts that you seem to reject, (Of course, facts that you are probably not even aware of anyway, and don't want to be aware of, because of a name hovering near them).
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q_q_,
You appear to make less and less sense the more I read your posts. What is it you are arguing about?
I have looked at the Rabin conspiracy things. There may be some questions there but just because of this doesnt mean that everything that Chamish says is true. You seem to be ensnared in this feeling that anyone who doesnt believe Chamish, or thinks he is a nut case {which I do}, is personally against you. This is getting a little bit paranoid, don't you think?
You keep bringing up the Rabin murder issue. So what? There is no proof of anything even in that conspiracy. So many people have differing reasons for this. I just know that there are some questions about the official video {which I watched multiple times} and even those questions can be answered rationally. I will leave it open for others to investigate but still believe that for the most part Chamish is far gone.
Are you personally in some kind of relationship with Chamish? Maybe you really are Chamish? I have never seen someone defend someone so nutty as Chamish as you do. Please answer me this...
muman613
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q_q_,
You appear to make less and less sense the more I read your posts. What is it you are arguing about?
I have looked at the Rabin conspiracy things. There may be some questions there but just because of this doesnt mean that everything that Chamish says is true. You seem to be ensnared in this feeling that anyone who doesnt believe Chamish, or thinks he is a nut case {which I do}, is personally against you. This is getting a little bit paranoid, don't you think?
You keep bringing up the Rabin murder issue. So what? There is no proof of anything even in that conspiracy. So many people have differing reasons for this. I just know that there are some questions about the official video {which I watched multiple times} and even those questions can be answered rationally. I will leave it open for others to investigate but still believe that for the most part Chamish is far gone.
Are you personally in some kind of relationship with Chamish? Maybe you really are Chamish? I have never seen someone defend someone so nutty as Chamish as you do. Please answer me this...
muman613
You know nothing, and you admit it, and that you have no interest in knowing anything about it.
I gave you enough chances to state facts.
You have no logic either. And everything you guess at is always wrong. And you only guess.
So I quoted Shlomo, not you.
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q_q_,
You appear to make less and less sense the more I read your posts. What is it you are arguing about?
I have looked at the Rabin conspiracy things. There may be some questions there but just because of this doesnt mean that everything that Chamish says is true. You seem to be ensnared in this feeling that anyone who doesnt believe Chamish, or thinks he is a nut case {which I do}, is personally against you. This is getting a little bit paranoid, don't you think?
You keep bringing up the Rabin murder issue. So what? There is no proof of anything even in that conspiracy. So many people have differing reasons for this. I just know that there are some questions about the official video {which I watched multiple times} and even those questions can be answered rationally. I will leave it open for others to investigate but still believe that for the most part Chamish is far gone.
Are you personally in some kind of relationship with Chamish? Maybe you really are Chamish? I have never seen someone defend someone so nutty as Chamish as you do. Please answer me this...
muman613
You know nothing, and you admit it, and that you have no interest in knowing anything about it.
I gave you enough chances to state facts.
You have no logic either. And everything you guess at is always wrong. And you only guess.
So I quoted Shlomo, not you.
q_q_,
Please reconsider your tone with me...
I have edited this message in the hopes of allowing us to improve our relations. I do not seek any machlokes with you. I simply am looking for some rational discussion with you without making the whole thing personal.
muman613
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q_q_,
Please reconsider your tone with me...
I have edited this message in the hopes of allowing us to improve our relations. I do not seek any machlokes with you. I simply am looking for some rational discussion with you without making the whole thing personal.
muman613
I am not interested in any more discussion with you on this issue of Chamish.
I will write why, so that it is known why.
I've already given you enough chances, and i've gotten out of it all that can be gotten out of it.
I am not repeating the same circus act with you in any more threads.
What I have already succeeded in doing with you, is that any time you call chamish names, or dismiss him as you do, then anybody wanting to know what you think about Chamish, when it was challenged, can view PAST POSTS that you have written (minus the thread you moved) ,and they can see my responses and they will see your "position" on it, and how well it holds up.
I would have preferred it if you were better, if you dealt with facts, but you never did, and people can see that next time you call chamish names and dismiss everything he says, or you dismiss everything he has brought to public attention.
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q_q_,
Honestly I have looked at the facts and I dont believe what he says.
I have given you the benefit of the doubt on the case of the Rabin assasination which there seems to be room to question the official story. I only do this with extreme caution because I do not believe that the story which Chamish claims is the true conspiracy. I dont just arbitrarily say things without thinking them out beforehand. I am very good at backing up my points with quotes and facts. Your portrayal of me is without cause except for your own anger towards me for discounting your friend Chamish.
I am just very disappointed that you now consider me an opponent against which you must constantly bicker with. In another thread you jumped on me for not attributing a post properly. Then I noticed that two other posters did the same thing I did yet you did not complain to them about it. It must be that you take special care to rebuke me when you see me make a mistake. In truth I think this is very special and appreciate your interest. I believe you truly are trying to help me and as a result I try to see you in a better light.
I am open to new ideas and have changed my positions on some issues. I am not simply discounting you and your ideas without much thought. Your method needs some refinement yet you are a force for good.
muman613
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Muman, I am not interested in "changing your position", because it doesn't change based on facts anyway. It just changes based on other things.
I am not interested in countering every one of your "guesses" either.
You say Chamish is my friend. But I am not more friendly with Chamish than I am with you. So try to think that through, since you suggest that you like thinking. It is purely to counter your sentence. And before you start thinking that i'm your friend, i'll point out that I'm quite distant from you.
I am not playing psychiatrist with you trying to change your perception of me. I don't care if your instincts are to see me as the "devil" himself but for religious reasons you are trying to see me in a good light.
I am not singling you out for rebuke. You should have seen that I criticise lots of people over various issues. Sometimes I miss a few opportunities, and sometimes I just give up if I see there is no hope for them in that area. I am not obligated to correct everybody, and I didn't actually see the 2 articles you refer to where you claim that others made the same mistake as you.
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Shalom q_q_,
Look, if you believe what he says, then I think no less of you for it. All that really matters is that you're a good yid who loves Hashem and does what he can to make the world better. Everyone has their own opinions and some people here believe the stuff he says. Chaim and I do not agree with Barry and think that he's reaching at straws. To me, it's comparable to the videos on YouTube that say our own government executed 911. Some folks believe in these type of things (some very smart people) and feel like there is enough to substantiate it but I've heard both sides and I don't. Chaim has written some on this subject too and a very small minority of members were banned for too much conspiracy material on the forum.
But I do not want to just argue with you for the sake of arguing and I really don't want to be disrespectful to you and some of the other members I care about so deeply. I had 3 of his books and I understand what your point of view is. I'd rather leave it at that with this topic rather than spend a couple of hours combing through Chamish's material when I need to be working on the new website. I think you know how I feel about the subject I hope you understand I mean nothing towards you personally. I think you are a wonderful member of the forum.
I simply believe it's important to state JTF's position on the material because we wish to distance ourselves from it. That's all.
-Shlomo
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Shalom q_q_,
Look, if you believe what he says,<snip>
it doesn't work like that.
All that really matters is that you're a good yid who loves Hashem and does what he can to make the world better. Everyone has their own opinions and some people here believe the stuff he says. Chaim and I do not agree with Barry and think that he's reaching at straws. To me, it's comparable to the videos on YouTube that say our own government executed 911. Some folks believe in these type of things (some very smart people) and feel like there is enough to substantiate it but I've heard both sides and I don't. Chaim has written some on this subject too and a very small minority of members were banned for too much conspiracy material on the forum.
I don't care about 911 conspiracies.
<snip>I had 3 of his books
No wonder you think he's a nutter. His books are horrendous!
and I understand what your point of view is.
I seriously doubt that.
I'd rather leave it at that with this topic rather than spend a couple of hours combing through Chamish's material when I need to be working on the new website.
so then better not to just say he's a nutter and dismiss him when you don't have the hours to study the -relevant- material that he has produced/publicised.
<snip>
I simply believe it's important to state JTF's position on the material because we wish to distance ourselves from it. That's all.
As I showed, JTF has not distanced itself from a rabin conspiracy theory/"theory".
I am quite sure that "the material" that you have in mind would not be the relevant material to the discussion. Anyhow, as you have said, you are not willing to study the relevant material. That's the key here, why no intelligent discussion is possible on this issue. But then don't dismiss everything he says. all documentation that he has revealed.
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for others(not anybody participating in this thread), the main relevant material is chamish's video "who murdered yitzchak rabin", this has very clear video evidence .. and at one point it has chamish's evidence presented nicely by an american news program.. they interview the surgeon that wrote the medical reports.. he goes bright red when asked to explain a wound that he described in detail, when it wasn't meant to be there in the official story.
With the video, he can send you the medical reports, so you can follow along.
Natan Gefen's work is all in hebrew but should have the medical reports too, perhaps in the book itself. He presents things much better apparently.
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QQ you admit his books are horrible, I can only imagine the atrocious sourcing he must do, considering what his articles usually look like. The format is often intolerable. That style lends itself to appearing as a "nutter" rather than an academic or authority of any kind. Unfortunately for him.
But come on. Some of what he says is completely off the wall! And earlier in the thread you said chamish isn't into illuminati!? Are you serious? It's almost all he talks about these days. Listen to any of his radio appearances on his site, or when he talks to alex jones, he blames illuminati and sabbateans for just about everything.
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QQ you admit his books are horrible, I can only imagine the atrocious sourcing he must do, considering what his articles usually look like. The format is often intolerable. That style lends itself to appearing as a "nutter" rather than an academic or authority of any kind. Unfortunately for him.
But come on. Some of what he says is completely off the wall! And earlier in the thread you said chamish isn't into illuminati!? Are you serious? It's almost all he talks about these days. Listen to any of his radio appearances on his site, or when he talks to alex jones, he blames illuminati and sabbateans for just about everything.
I don't care.
My point is not to dismiss what he has brought us on Rabin. The credentials or sanity of the messenger is irrelevant.
Of course, if you're going to say he is nutty, then be honest and say he is a genius too. He has an ability to understand very complex storylines, very quickly, and to spot things that others don't. A problem is that he enjoys it a bit too much.