JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: muman613 on November 05, 2008, 09:19:04 PM
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Shalom,
I am interested in knowing what most religious JTFers believe is the true story about the Rabin Assasination. I have changed my belief recently. Originally I believed the 'official' story. But I have viewed the 'Kempler Video' and am perplexed by a number of interesting issues. I will probrobly be talking about this issue with an Israeli co-worker tomorrow. My friend is pretty much your average Lefty Israeli in that he considers any question about Rabins assasination to be crazy. We started to talk about it today but he was dismissive of some of my points. I have been reading up on the conspiracy points and would like other peoples opinion.
Thank you,
muman613
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A set-up. Rabin himself hired Avishai Raviv and his group (Eyal, I think?) to convince Amir to "shoot rabin." There were supposed to be blanks in the gun. This is entrapment. Designed to make Rabin a "martyr" who survived attempt on his life, to make the public more open to Oslo accords and to frame the rightwing as killers of peace. "Official" non-official story says Amir switched the blanks to bullets and killed him for real. Unofficial non-official story suggests that perhaps he DID shoot blanks, but Peres had a bodyguard finish the job in the limo. And Amir played along as a 'patsy' for whatever reasons. I'm undecided on the matter and haven't seen enough evidence.
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G-d bless Yigal Amir. One of the greatest Sefardic heroes in our generation!
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well, since
There is a general rule against conspiracy theories on the forum, and nobody wants to see any evidence anyway (as shown from previous discussions), this whole discussion is pointless. As it is to just ask opinions.
It shouldn't be in the torah section anyway.
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Relevant article: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128327
Lists out some of the claims being made against official story and lists out some inconsistencies.
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Relevant article: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128327
Lists out some of the claims being made against official story and lists out some inconsistencies.
KWRBT,
I am very well aware of the issues involved in the theories. I have been looking at them and trying to decide my opinion. I have moved to accept that maybe to official story is suspect. I think it would be wise to have an independent investigation into the issue.
muman613
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Rabin was asking for it. His ralationship with Ararat was a ticking time bomb
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It was God's restraining act. God will punish anyone who divides Israel.
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It was G-d's restraining act. G-d will punish anyone who divides Israel.
True, true...
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The movie clearly shows Amir shooting the evil Rabnin who subsequently collapses. Amir is the Assassin and he also admits that himself. Avishai raviv was a shabak agent whose task was to set up provocations and mock underground activity in order to incite the public against the settlers. Still I don't know if there is any evidence that he gave the weapon to Amir, does Amir claim that ?
Rabin was a traitor and he was a Rodef so i think morally he deserved to be killed. I don't think it was a strategically smart move though.
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The movie clearly shows Amir shooting the evil Rabnin who subsequently collapses. Amir is the Assassin and he also admits that himself. Avishai raviv was a shabak agent whose task was to set up provocations and mock underground activity in order to incite the public against the settlers. Still I don't know if there is any evidence that he gave the weapon to Amir, does Amir claim that ?
Rabin was a traitor and he was a Rodef so i think morally he deserved to be killed. I don't think it was a strategically smart move though.
I am familiar with the facts and since you may be of the right intelligence, we could have an interesting discussion. (If you are interested in the facts).
The thing you are concerned with - whether the video shows rabin collapsing- is irrelevant.
We are really starting in the wrong place logically, but actually the video does not show rabin collapse (I have no idea what you were watching!!). It is irrelevant because the video is cut anyway. Apparently the evidence that he didn't collapse is that witnesses said he was fine, he got in his car, I say "apparently" because the evidence is in hebrew, and i've been told that that is what it says.
(it's not directly relevant, but the shabak told rabin's wife that it was an exercise)
Amir is not going to know whether he was the man that killed rabin or not. So your point of whether he said he did or not is irrelevant.
Now, this is not directly relevant but since you bring up about Amir saying he did it.
http://www.yigalamir.com/videos/amir-yitzhak-rabin-murder.htm
And in his trial he thinks he did it and tries to convict himself.. When given evidence that he didn't do it, he essentially says -this can't be right - call another witness! He gets confused in the trial because he sees evidence like shooting from point blank or near point blank range, doesn't apply to him.
Yigal Amir became in favour again while in prison. His wife (he acquired her in prison!) didn't understand chamish, but had read natan gefen(it's in hebrew only) and she was concerned about the evidence he presented. (see larissa amir's radio interview http://www.shimonperes.net/davidrutstein.htm)
rabin's daughter dalia, also spoke of concern of a conspiracy, recorded in an interview. Chamish presented the interview from womens's world.
David Rutstein has done alot to present the evidence to the public.
http://www.yitchakrabin.com/Barry%20Chamish/html/dalia_yitzhak_rabin.html
And Rabin's son Yuval, apparently said something along the lines of, people should take notice of Chamish's book and address it or there will be many more Chamishim.
Where did you hear of avishai raviv giving the weapon to yigal amir. I haven't heard that. He used to joke about killing the prime minister
We are going all over the place. I'm just giving some info related to your points. But if you are interested we can have a sensible logical discussion.
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I checked http://www.yigalamir.com/
I find The man behind this site very unreliable. He claims that Peres is behind the murder, he had ordered Rabin's own body guards to liquidate him and they complied (and why the hell would they take such crazy orders from a man who had no authority whatsoever ?).
There is only one serious question i can find in that site- Apparently the ballistic expert of the police determined that the two killing shots were fired one from a range of ~25cm and one 'has characteristics of a contact shot'. He claims that the video proves that Amir fired from a range of ~50cm (I don't know how or who can prove that but the shots were clearly not fired form poit blank). It is indeed bizzar that Amir had actually tried to refute the ballistic expert and he had personally cross examined him in the trial.
The other issue is that a third shot which hit a body guard in the elbow and whose bullet had never been retrieved, was a different type of ammo- a coper jacket (while Rabin was hit with hollow points). However entirely it is possible that the first two shots were with a home made hollow point bullet (if I recall correctly Yigal's brother had allegedly supplied him with these bullets which he made himself), and the third round was a generic 9mm.
Where did you hear of avishai raviv giving the weapon to yigal amir. I haven't heard that. He used to joke about killing the prime minister
Chaim has repeatedly said so but he never said on which source he relied.
Either way it is an established fact that Avishai Raviv was a planted shabak provocateur who was in close contact with Yigal Amir and had at list an idea about Amir's intentions.
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I checked http://www.yigalamir.com/
I find The man behind this site very unreliable. He claims that Peres is behind the murder, he had ordered Rabin's own body guards to liquidate him and they complied (and why the hell would they take such crazy orders from a man who had no authority whatsoever ?).
You're going to have to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, without getting into some kind of permanent tizzy.
Throw out the claim.
There is only one serious question i can find in that site- Apparently the ballistic expert of the police determined that the two killing shots were fired one from a range of ~25cm and one 'has characteristics of a contact shot'. He claims that the video proves that Amir fired from a range of ~50cm (I don't know how or who can prove that but the shots were clearly not fired form poit blank). It is indeed bizzar that Amir had actually tried to refute the ballistic expert and he had personally cross examined him in the trial.
The other issue is that a third shot which hit a body guard in the elbow and whose bullet had never been retrieved, was a different type of ammo- a coper jacket (while Rabin was hit with hollow points). However entirely it is possible that the first two shots were with a home made hollow point bullet (if I recall correctly Yigal's brother had allegedly supplied him with these bullets which he made himself), and the third round was a generic 9mm.
there are many questions on the official story, but it's missing the point.
What are -you- trying to prove?
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there are many questions on the official story, but it's missing the point.
What are -you- trying to prove?
I am not sufficiently informed to actually prove anything. I can try to examine the public information and see if it makes sense or does it smell like a cover up.
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there are many questions on the official story, but it's missing the point.
What are -you- trying to prove?
I am not sufficiently informed to actually prove anything. I can try to examine the public information and see if it makes sense or does it smell like a cover up.
The evidence is that Yigal Amir did not give yitzchak rabin all his wounds.
Rabin had to have been shot -after- the whole yigal amir scene, while in the hands of israeli intelligence/israeli govt. And that really means -by them. There is no evidence of some other assassin e.g. another right wing settler, appearing, suprising everybody while rabin was in the car or hospital.
This suggests strongly enough that Yigal Amir didn't kill him. They did.
I think one can say that the evidence poitns strongly to that. Proves that.
Rabin had a shot from near point blank range.
and a shot from the -front- that -shattered the spine-, described in detail in his medical reports.
Yigal Amir was standing behind him and was not shooting from point blank or near point blank range.
And there is a huge amount of evidence showing all their failed attempts to to cover it up.. Though that is all secondary.
And there is theorizing on motives, also secondary.
And guessing that there was somebody that gave the command, and who it was. Also secondary. Primarily, the core evidence shows what it shows, that amir didn't and israeli intelligence did.
Now.. Studying something like this involved time(chamish can contradict himself and go on long rambles), and I did so and made sense of the evidence, because I thought it was important. It was. But i'm not sure that it still is. It's in my mind from my past effort, and I have no problem discussing it now, but I don't think it's that significant.
I think it was important at the time, since it proves how evil the israeli govt / israeli intelligence is, in their war against the right.. But since Amona, I think it's irrelevant.
Amona is in clear video evidence, far easier for people to understand.
And if people aren't moved by Amona, then I think they are a lost cause in getting us back on track. And if they are moved by Amona, they don't need this.
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Of course it was a conspiracy and that Yigal Amir should be released immediately, but in any event, Rabin more than deserved what he got for being a traitor to the jewish people.
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It makes no sense that the Isreli Shabak purposely eliminated Rabin, why would they do that ? On the other hand Amir had a motive to kill Rabin and he did actually shot him.
I want an expert forensic opinion ruling out the possibility that Yigal Amir caused all the wounds with two shots. If what you say could be proved beyond doubt this would be devastating to the evil Israeli regime.
Unfortunately the Amona incidents is not very moving to most Israelis.
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It makes no sense that the Isreli Shabak purposely eliminated Rabin, why would they do that ? On the other hand Amir had a motive to kill Rabin and he did actually shot him.
before you start jumping to conclusions. of who has a motive and who doesn't.
And even,
before you ask that question of where is the motive, you should ask the question of why it is relevant.
why do you need a motive?
Either the evidence proves it , or it doesn't, and if it doesn't, then a motive won't help it very much. We are talking about a very serious incident. Not something where one should say "Oh, HE had a motive, so then point the finger at him for that reason!".
I want an expert forensic opinion ruling out the possibility that Yigal Amir caused all the wounds with two shots. If what you say could be proved beyond doubt this would be devastating to the evil Israeli regime.
forget the number of shots.
I said.
Medical Records show that Rabin has wounds that could not have been inflicted by Yigal Amir. You could ask me How I Know That.
You talk about asking a forensic expert as if you NEED that. Your reasoning is flawed. (Now, I am not saying that experts have or haven't been consulted, that is not my point to you). My point is that your logic is flawed.
I happen to know of an expert in anatomy that says it's impossible, he is very highly qualified, but I have also found that he is not reliable. Brilliant as he is, he is not logical.
You are going to have to look at this without being reliant on somebody else's Logic. You are going to have to use your own mind.
And THEIR expert information. That is their expertise, their knowledge.
That doesn't mean saying, they're an expert so everything they say is true.
You can say, They are an expert, so they know things and can provide you with information that you don't know.
Unfortunately the Amona incidents is not very moving to most Israelis.
If you see my post again, you will see I mentioned Amona to make a significant point related to this. Not to ask that question and to open the doors for one to whine with some obvious answer.