JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on January 24, 2009, 07:52:04 PM
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Today he lifted it
here are widespread rumours that Pope Benedict XVI is about to remove the excommunications on the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the four bishops consecrated by the rebel traditionalist prelate in 1988. But is that wise? For, as Ruth Gledhill reports, the lifting of the excommunication would coincide with further evidence that h
The film above says it all. Williamson, a smarmy, intellectually conceited old Wykhamist, has given an interview to Swedish TV in which he says that the gas chambers did not exist. The Catholic website Creative Minority Report reckons that Williamson has deliberately brought up the subject again in order to make it impossible for Pope Benedict to end the schismatic status of the Society of St Pius X. It begs Bishop Bernard Fellay, head of the SSPX, to expel Williamson.
Just imagine the consequences if the Pope were to bring the Lefebvrists back into the fold while a vicious Holocaust denier was still one of their bishops. The damage done to the Holy Father's reputation would be catastrophic. And, even if Williamson is thrown out beforehand, the fact remains that the SSPX has always known that this horrible man has Far Right views. He has been denying the existence of the gas chambers for many years.
And yet the SSPX did nothing, other than moving Williamson out of the way of the media. The membership, by and large, said nothing.
Why is it always assumed by traditionalist Catholics that the healing of the Lefebvrist schism would be a great blessing? Williamson may be the Society's most prominent Holocaust revisionist, but he is not the only one. In France, the organisation is riddled with Vichyite anti-Semitism (though I should add say that its ranks also include good and devout people).
He lifted it more
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2009/01/24/benedict_and_the_sspx_the_backlash_begins
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His goal is to unite the catholic church again.
But this special group he wants to reunite with the Roman Catholic Church is not righteous.
Beside from the point of revisonism they are very hostile to Jews. Not because they want them convert, but generally.
The members of this group are the servants of the Muzz.
Proof: http://www.kreuz.net/article.8545.html
I am not up for translating it.
Summary: The Israeli crimes in so called Palestina are worse than the Nazi crimes against the Jews.
Commentary is not necessary - I think.
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I think it's very sad that he feels this way. His actions are appalling.
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Oh well, it's not like the Pope speaks for the entire Catholic Church.
I feel really sad for our Catholic members having to put up with this guy.
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Oh well, it's not like the Pope speaks for the entire Catholic Church.
I think it was not his aim to support this kind of oppinion (The revisonisim and really primitive Jewhate)
He wanted to get them back, like he is obligated to according to unite the only real church.
But you cannot bring all kind of people under one hat.
Imo the right option is to seperate from them.
I believe in strict double predestination, so this is the only natural solution.
If someone is lost, no one will be able to bring him back.
Sad but true.
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Oh well, it's not like the Pope speaks for the entire Catholic Church.
Agreed.
The same is the case regarding the elected officials of the United States not speaking for the American people . And the elected officials of Israel not speaking for the Israeli people. The vast majority of JTF members are supportive of the American and Israeli people. Yet, oppose the current Administrations in both countries and many, if not most, of the previous administrations.
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This is clearly a bad decision for the pope to do this. The positions this priest took are totally unacceptable for any clergy to hold. This priest is clearly a disgrace and the Pope looses a great deal of credibility in any outreach to the Jewish people by lifting the excommunication. This is the sort of thing if true that comes back to haunt the RC Church.
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This is one of the reasons my opinion of the Catholic Church is so harsh. The pope does speak for all Catholics, his decisions are considered divine by his followers. There are many reasons for a Jew to be very, very wary of anything this 'organization' called the Catholic Church says and does. Its history is very dark and evil to the Jewish people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Status_and_authority
First Vatican Council
The status and authority of the Pope in the Catholic Church was dogmatically defined by the First Vatican Council on 18 July 1870. In its Dogmatic Constitution of the Church of Christ, the Council established the following canons:[29]
"If anyone says that the blessed Apostle Peter was not established by the Lord Christ as the chief of all the apostles, and the visible head of the whole militant Church, or, that the same received great honour but did not receive from the same our Lord Jesus Christ directly and immediately the primacy in true and proper jurisdiction: let him be anathema.[30]
If anyone says that it is not from the institution of Christ the Lord Himself, or by divine right that the blessed Peter has perpetual successors in the primacy over the universal Church, or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in the same primacy, let him be anathema.[31]
If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction, but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world; or, that he possesses only the more important parts, but not the whole plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate, or over the churches altogether and individually, and over the pastors and the faithful altogether and individually: let him be anathema.[32]
We, adhering faithfully to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God, our Saviour, the elevation of the Catholic religion and the salvation of Christian peoples, with the approbation of the sacred Council, teach and explain that the dogma has been divinely revealed: that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when carrying out the duty of the pastor and teacher of all Christians by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority he defines a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, through the divine assistance promised him in blessed Peter, operates with that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished that His church be instructed in defining doctrine on faith and morals; and so such definitions of the Roman Pontiff from himself, but not from the consensus of the Church, are unalterable. But if anyone presumes to contradict this definition of Ours, which may God forbid: let him be anathema."
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Today he lifted it
here are widespread rumours that Pope Benedict XVI is about to remove the excommunications on the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the four bishops consecrated by the rebel traditionalist prelate in 1988. But is that wise? For, as Ruth Gledhill reports, the lifting of the excommunication would coincide with further evidence that h
The film above says it all. Williamson, a smarmy, intellectually conceited old Wykhamist, has given an interview to Swedish TV in which he says that the gas chambers did not exist. The Catholic website Creative Minority Report reckons that Williamson has deliberately brought up the subject again in order to make it impossible for Pope Benedict to end the schismatic status of the Society of St Pius X. It begs Bishop Bernard Fellay, head of the SSPX, to expel Williamson.
Just imagine the consequences if the Pope were to bring the Lefebvrists back into the fold while a vicious Holocaust denier was still one of their bishops. The damage done to the Holy Father's reputation would be catastrophic. And, even if Williamson is thrown out beforehand, the fact remains that the SSPX has always known that this horrible man has Far Right views. He has been denying the existence of the gas chambers for many years.
And yet the SSPX did nothing, other than moving Williamson out of the way of the media. The membership, by and large, said nothing.
Why is it always assumed by traditionalist Catholics that the healing of the Lefebvrist schism would be a great blessing? Williamson may be the Society's most prominent Holocaust revisionist, but he is not the only one. In France, the organisation is riddled with Vichyite anti-Semitism (though I should add say that its ranks also include good and devout people).
He lifted it more
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2009/01/24/benedict_and_the_sspx_the_backlash_begins
This Pope was a Hitler youth at one time. I am surprised because the Pope claims he didn't want to be a part of the Nazis or the Hitler Youth.
If his claims were genuine, then why would he lift the excommunication for those Anti Semetic Priests?
Something is wrong in Denmark !
Shalom - Dox
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A few months ago, the Orthodox Park East Synagogue, whose rabbi Chaim detests, invited the Pope for a visit.
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A hundred years ago I would agree with you muman however today most of the churches followers form their own opinions and really don't follow the Pope's policies. As you see issues such as birth control and other social issues the Pope's influence only goes so far today. People are better educated and don't really need the church to tell them what to think. The church's history is what it is but I think a great deal of progress has been made in the past century in its relations with other religions. The church makes thousands of decisions a year on policy like this they are going to make bad ones from time to time. The Pope is the head of the RC Church but he does not speak for all its followers.
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A hundred years ago I would agree with you muman however today most of the churches followers form their own opinions and really don't follow the Pope's policies. As you see issues such as birth control and other social issues the Pope's influence only goes so far today. People are better educated and don't really need the church to tell them what to think. The church's history is what it is but I think a great deal of progress has been made in the past century in its relations with other religions. The church makes thousands of decisions a year on policy like this they are going to make bad ones from time to time. The Pope is the head of the RC Church but he does not speak for all its followers.
Around here we call them 'wanna-be' Catholics because in order to be a real anything one must follow the letter of the law. In Judaism we have denominations called 'Reform' and 'Conservative', but from my vantage point of Orthodoxy those strains are not even Judaism. We base Judaism on whether or not one lives a Torah lifestyle. I apply the same kind of comparison to other religions. There are Catholics, who listen to the dogma of the Catholic church, there are Muslims who listen to the rantings of a raving criminal as if it is prophecy and those who don't are not Muslims {by the Koran they are infidels who die with the rest of us}. People who think they are religious and don't follow the rules of the religion are just fooling themselves.
All 'righteous' people do what they are expected to do. As a Jew I don't eat pork, and I don't eat milk and meat mixtures, I observe the seventh day in all its minutia {at least to the best of my ability}. If I dont do these things then I am not meeting the expectation of being an Orthodox observant Jew. I would think that a Catholic would obey the pope because he is the 'head' {in hebrew it is called the ROSH} of the institution. If you don't believe in Catholicism then find something else. We 'righteous' people do support the right to life of the unborn. In Judaism it is not as big of an issue but basically we agree with the religions which ascribe life to be sacred.
In Judaism we have no 'head' who speaks for all of us. We dont have prophets alive today who speak to our L-rd. There is the belief in Catholicism the the Pope is infallible. I quoted from the Vatican council and there it is established that to disagree with the pontiff is anathema to the religion.
PS: Are you implying that the Pope didn't know that this Bishop doesn't believe that systematic genocide took place in the Nazi regime?
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Muman, are you saying that Jews who aren't as observant as you are phony wannabe Jews?
Also, CJD and the Catholic JTF'ers are not your enemy. There are plenty of Catholics who are pro-Israel, just as there are those are the opposite. It's not right to call them Catholic wannabes or tell them they're not real Catholics, especially when he's supportive of Israel, Jews, and our movement. I met CJD several times. He's a wonderful JTF'er who has been with us, almost from the beginning.
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Muman, are you saying that Jews who aren't as observant as you are phony wannabe Jews?
Also, CJD and the Catholic JTF'ers are not your enemy. There are plenty of Catholics who are pro-Israel, just as there are those are the opposite. It's not right to call them Catholic wannabes or tell them they're not real Catholics, especially when he's supportive of Israel, Jews, and our movement. I met CJD several times. He's a wonderful JTF'er who has been with us, almost from the beginning.
Hi Lisa,
Nowhere did I say that anyone is my enemy. I am just saying that the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church and what he says holds a lot of weight in the world. I think it is wrong that the Church has been hiding its history of lack of kindness to the Jewish people during the Holocaust.
I did not attack him but simply was attempting to point out that the church has a history of things like this. I don't think it was any kind of mistake. Granted there are those Catholics who don't give much weight to the Pope but I personally don't know any. All the Catholic people whom I work with, and they are no doubt very nice people, listen to the Pope as a guidance to how to live their life.
I would hope the righteous Catholics would petition the pope to prevent this Bishop from representing the Church especially since his outrageous statements have already harmed the relations which the Church has tried for forty years to reverse. I do believe the second Vatican council did reverse many wrongs which were established in Church doctrine.
I am sorry if what I wrote offended anyone. I have just seen that Jews who are not rightist enough are called the K-word and those Christians who support abortion are called wanna-be Christians. I have a hope that all of mankind will come to love and respect the loving Father who provided us creation for our betterment.
PS: Regarding Jews I think that we are all given the potential to do Teshuva. I was non-observant for almost half my life and due to circumstances I turned around and started to read our scriptures and I asked for forgiveness for all the wrongs which I did. The first part of doing teshuva is to recognize that I am not infallible and I did make wrong choices in my life. A big problem with youth today is admitting when there is a problem. The fact that I look at a Jew today who doesnt observe Shabbat doesnt make me curse him, it just makes me pray for this person to do his teshuva and learn the Torah. I believe the Christians have the same idea called repentance. I hope that all who dont understand may understand one day.
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This is the story as reported on Israel National News:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129591
Pope Removes Ban on British Holocaust Denier Bishop
Tevet 28, 5769, 24 January 09 11:58
by D. Shammah
(IsraelNN.com) In a move that many Jewish community officials said would cause relations between Jews and Catholics to further deteriorate, the Vatican on Saturday lifted an excommunication ban against Bishop Richard Williamson, one of four bishops who were banned in 1988 for taking on the office of bishop against the wishes of then-Pope John Paul II. Williamson is a Holocaust denier, and has repeatedly said that the gas chambers did not exist and that “a maximum” of 300,000 Jews were killed during World War II, mostly of starvation. In addition, Williamson has declared that the Jews are plotting to take over the world, and that the U.S. and Israel were behind 9/11.
In an interview with Swedish television conducted last November but broadcast last week, Williamson said that he believed that there were “no gas chambers."
“Between 200,000-300,000 perished in Nazi concentration camps, but not one of them by gassing in a gas chamber,” he said, adding “I believe that the historical evidence is hugely against 6 million having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler.”
Back to Middle Ages
Williamson has had a long history of Holocaust denial. In a 1989 sermon in Sherbrooke, Canada, Williamson said that "there was not one Jew killed in the gas chambers. It was all lies, lies, lies. The Jews created the Holocaust so we would prostrate ourselves on our knees before them and approve of their new State of Israel... Jews made up the Holocaust, Protestants get their orders from the devil, and the Vatican has sold its soul to liberalism." In dozens of sermons and letters, Richardson reiterated the same theme, adding that Hitler “liberated” Germany from the Jews.
Richardson advocates a return to the Middle Ages, with the Inquisition the preferred model of the Catholic relationship to Jews. “As Catholic faith goes up, so Jewish power goes down, while as Catholic faith goes down, so Jewish power goes up. In the Catholic Middle Ages the Jews were relatively impotent to harm Christendom, but as Catholics have grown over the centuries since then weaker and weaker in the faith, especially since Vatican II, so the Jews have come closer and closer to fulfilling their substitute-Messianic drive towards world dominion... When Spanish Catholics were truly Catholic, G-d granted them by 1492 to reconquer Spain from the Arabs, and then granted them to create a Catholic empire in the Americas.”
Jewish community officials have expressed serious concerns over the Pope's move. Rabbi Shmuel Ricardo Di Segni the Chief Rabbi of Rome, told reporters that the rehabilitation of Williamson opens “a deep wound” in Catholic-Jewish relations. The Anti-Defamation League, an anti-Semitism watchdog group, said that the reinstatement “could become a source of great tension between Catholics and Jews.” The umbrella group of Jewish communities in France called Williamson “a contemptible liar whose sole objective is to reawaken centuries-old hatred against the Jews.” In a report, Reuters quoted Mordechai Lewy, Israel's ambassador to the Vatican, as saying that Israel “has no intention of interfering in the internal workings of the Catholic Church. However, the eagerness to bring a Holocaust denier back into the Church will cast a shadow on relations between Jews and the Catholic Church.”
A Vatican spokesman said that the lifting of the ban had nothing to do with Williamson's views. “It has nothing to do with the personal opinions of a person, which are open to criticism, but are not pertinent to this decree.”
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This "bishop" person is obviously a nazi pig.
He believe that only 300,000 Jews died in the camps of starvation, so that somehow absolves Hitler and the nazis, of imprisoning them, taking their property, and starving them? Then this beast goes on to say that Hitler "liberated" Germany from the Jews. How could Germany have been "liberated" if only 300,000 to 600,000 Jews only died of starvation?
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Re: Pope Ratzinger to lift excommunication of Holocaust denier priest:
He should not do it.
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Ratzi the nazi, the bastard hun.
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Today he lifted it
here are widespread rumours that Pope Benedict XVI is about to remove the excommunications on the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the four bishops consecrated by the rebel traditionalist prelate in 1988. But is that wise? For, as Ruth Gledhill reports, the lifting of the excommunication would coincide with further evidence that h
The film above says it all. Williamson, a smarmy, intellectually conceited old Wykhamist, has given an interview to Swedish TV in which he says that the gas chambers did not exist. The Catholic website Creative Minority Report reckons that Williamson has deliberately brought up the subject again in order to make it impossible for Pope Benedict to end the schismatic status of the Society of St Pius X. It begs Bishop Bernard Fellay, head of the SSPX, to expel Williamson.
Just imagine the consequences if the Pope were to bring the Lefebvrists back into the fold while a vicious Holocaust denier was still one of their bishops. The damage done to the Holy Father's reputation would be catastrophic. And, even if Williamson is thrown out beforehand, the fact remains that the SSPX has always known that this horrible man has Far Right views. He has been denying the existence of the gas chambers for many years.
And yet the SSPX did nothing, other than moving Williamson out of the way of the media. The membership, by and large, said nothing.
Why is it always assumed by traditionalist Catholics that the healing of the Lefebvrist schism would be a great blessing? Williamson may be the Society's most prominent Holocaust revisionist, but he is not the only one. In France, the organisation is riddled with Vichyite anti-Semitism (though I should add say that its ranks also include good and devout people).
He lifted it more
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2009/01/24/benedict_and_the_sspx_the_backlash_begins
This Pope was a Hitler youth at one time. I am surprised because the Pope claims he didn't want to be a part of the Nazis or the Hitler Youth.
If his claims were genuine, then why would he lift the excommunication for those Anti Semetic Priests?
Something is wrong in Denmark !
Shalom - Dox
This is the nature of the catholic church. I really believe him this Hitler youth issue.
There are different groups with different goals in the world.
You shouldn't think, that anti-semitism lead to the excommunication of this Pius people, that he now reunited with the CC. The cause was simply that this people ignored the power of Rome and injured the rights of the pope.
If you read original Nazi-newspapers of the time, you will find a very hard anti-catholic propaganda.
In the article that Muman posted, the ideas of this group come perfectly to the light.
It is Jewhate, but the ancient form of it. It is the religious Jewhate of the middle ages.
The Nazis didn't really care about the "godmurding" aspect of this old kind of anti-semitism.
They founded their anti-semitism on their racial pseudo-sciences.
In order to put it in a nutshell: This catholic anti-semites believe that Judaism is the problem, but the Nazis think that every Jew is corrupted in his genes and creates out of himself naturally in Nazi eyes wicked ideas like Judaism, Christianity, Marxism etc.
So both are obvious anti-semites. But althrough they do sometimes use thoughts, of the other group, they didn't really stand behind it. It is only for agitation-purposes. Of cause in the end it makes no difference.
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Around here we call them 'wanna-be' Catholics because in order to be a real anything one must follow the letter of the law.
Many Christians refer to that as legalism and don't believe that's healthy (in the context of Christianity). Anything that shuts off someone's thinking processes is not healthy. I believe that every Christian no matter what type of Christianity they follow should be able to think for themselves about doctrinal issues and should go to G-d in prayer about it and refer to what we consider to be Scriptures to guide us about it.
In Judaism we have denominations called 'Reform' and 'Conservative', but from my vantage point of Orthodoxy those strains are not even Judaism. We base Judaism on whether or not one lives a Torah lifestyle. I apply the same kind of comparison to other religions. There are Catholics, who listen to the dogma of the Catholic church, there are Muslims who listen to the rantings of a raving criminal as if it is prophecy and those who don't are not Muslims {by the Koran they are infidels who die with the rest of us}. People who think they are religious and don't follow the rules of the religion are just fooling themselves.
Religions do tend to evolve over time and that's not always a bad thing. None of the Christian (Catholic or otherwise) regulars at this forum as far as I know would want to do anything bad to Jewish people. None of the Christian people I knew grewing up would want to do anything bad to Jewish people. You act as if you want to make us your enemy when we otherwise don't want to be. I'm not a Catholic but the Catholics on this forum are great people and you're smearing them.
There are anti-Semites of all races and religions, including those who claim to be Orthodox Jews. There's no reason for you to push away supportive Christian people who want to help and try to make them your enemies.
I would think that a Catholic would obey the pope because he is the 'head' {in hebrew it is called the ROSH} of the institution. If you don't believe in Catholicism then find something else. We 'righteous' people do support the right to life of the unborn. In Judaism it is not as big of an issue but basically we agree with the religions which ascribe life to be sacred.
So you're basically saying they should follow him no matter what bone-headed thing he says to do. Do you want the Middle Ages to return? I think Catholicism could say been there, done that, got the T shirt. Today they're different for the most part.
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Pheasant I agree that Ratzinger is trying to heal breaches by doing this, but it's still poor judgment on his part. Also why would Ratzinger let this Nazi pig back into the church when 13 year old girls who were coerced into having abortions remain excommunicated?
Here's some more info.
This story is about a woman who was basically forced to get an abortion by her boyfriend, who said he would kill her and the baby if she didn't.
http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/story058.php
The RCC would excommunicate this woman if she were Catholic, but the Pope is letting a Nazi back in to the church.
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Oh well, it's not like the Pope speaks for the entire Catholic Church.
I think it was not his aim to support this kind of oppinion (The revisonisim and really primitive Jewhate)
He wanted to get them back, like he is obligated to according to unite the only real church.
But you cannot bring all kind of people under one hat.
Imo the right option is to seperate from them.
I believe in strict double predestination, so this is the only natural solution.
If someone is lost, no one will be able to bring him back.
Sad but true.
I believe in strict double predestination, so this is the only natural solution.
If someone is lost, no one will be able to bring him back.
Sad but true.
very true
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A few months ago, the Orthodox Park East Synagogue, whose rabbi Chaim detests, invited the Pope for a visit.
So do i not for this reason but for an encyclopedia full of reasons.I detest his son jr as well
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Muman the Council you quoted in your post is very old and has been replaced at least once in the 1960's. In fact I think it may have even been updated again however I am not sure. You are looking at something that is almost 150 years old. Look for the newer one known as Vatican 2. I don't know about 'wanna-be' Catholics or wanna-be-Jews and I don't know who you are referring to as "we". Its been well over 35 years since I personally bothered with any organized religion so can't accept wann-be- status. I am not here to sell or tell you how great the R.C.C or any other organized religion is or is not. What I will tell you that whenever I see one of this type thread start it does nothing but disrupt the movement for weeks. You sound like a smart guy but some of the stuff I see written about the R.C.C by you and a few others in the past makes me roll my eyes and think of the time your waisting on garbage like that while the Arab world is doing every thing it can to destroy tiny Israel. I will be the first to agree with you that the Church has taken some very evil actions over the centuries and yes in early time people livid by church decree. Today the Church honestly does not have that hold on its followers when it comes to social issues. More over when I was growing up in the 60's and early 70's the Church made a great effort to teach its young people about Judaism and its customs and holidays as a result of the policies in Vatican 2. The R.C.C today is under a great deal of pressure to keep people in the fold. Muslims are making great inroads into countries that were once bastions of Catholicism. I think its very sad when a person like yourself classifies other Jews who are less strict as almost non Jews. People like you who have seen both sides of the coin should encourage people like that to learn more and follow the mitzvas closer. Lastly for you to say that Catholics should believe and follow everything that comes out of the Popes mouth or not be Catholics very insulting to some of our great Catholic members who support Israel and the Jewish people. I leave myself out of that group since for all practical purposes I would fit into a group known as lapsed Catholics.
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Pheasant I agree that Ratzinger is trying to heal breaches by doing this, but it's still poor judgment on his part. Also why would Ratzinger let this Nazi pig back into the church when 13 year old girls who were coerced into having abortions remain excommunicated?
Here's some more info.
This story is about a woman who was basically forced to get an abortion by her boyfriend, who said he would kill her and the baby if she didn't.
http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/story058.php
The RCC would excommunicate this woman if she were Catholic, but the Pope is letting a Nazi back in to the church.
Ruby, this Nazi and anti-semite issue is not of any relevancy for the CC, at least if this Pius people accept again in all important points the rule of Benedikt.
To think that some moral points would influence the decision in any way is the view of people from outside with no understanding of the CC.
They are acting according to their ideology their goal and their interests. They are doing this since centuries. They are not influenced by the oppinion of the Jews and other people that are upset.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/europe/25pope.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
Interesting article
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Yes the article is very good it describes the issue well.
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Muman the Council you quoted in your post is very old and has been replaced at least once in the 1960's. In fact I think it may have even been updated again however I am not sure. You are looking at something that is almost 150 years old. Look for the newer one known as Vatican 2. I don't know about 'wanna-be' Catholics or wanna-be-Jews and I don't know who you are referring to as "we". Its been well over 35 years since I personally bothered with any organized religion so can't accept wann-be- status. I am not here to sell or tell you how great the R.C.C or any other organized religion is or is not. What I will tell you that whenever I see one of this type thread start it does nothing but disrupt the movement for weeks. You sound like a smart guy but some of the stuff I see written about the R.C.C by you and a few others in the past makes me roll my eyes and think of the time your waisting on garbage like that while the Arab world is doing every thing it can to destroy tiny Israel. I will be the first to agree with you that the Church has taken some very evil actions over the centuries and yes in early time people livid by church decree. Today the Church honestly does not have that hold on its followers when it comes to social issues. More over when I was growing up in the 60's and early 70's the Church made a great effort to teach its young people about Judaism and its customs and holidays as a result of the policies in Vatican 2. The R.C.C today is under a great deal of pressure to keep people in the fold. Muslims are making great inroads into countries that were once bastions of Catholicism. I think its very sad when a person like yourself classifies other Jews who are less strict as almost non Jews. People like you who have seen both sides of the coin should encourage people like that to learn more and follow the mitzvas closer. Lastly for you to say that Catholics should believe and follow everything that comes out of the Popes mouth or not be Catholics very insulting to some of our great Catholic members who support Israel and the Jewish people. I leave myself out of that group since for all practical purposes I would fit into a group known as lapsed Catholics.
Hi CJD, many righteous gentiles have been honored for their efforts to save Jews from the Death camps...there are numerous halls of the righteous in the Holocaust Museums to honor these brave Christians who risked their own lives to save the Jews. There is good and bad in every religion, except for Islam. I am personally grateful for the Christians who liberated Morrocco, my Mother and her family would have been taken to the death Camps in Europe and I would have never been born. I am alive today because there were good Christians who did save the remaining Jews from the camps. This holocaust denier should not be welcomed back by the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church must not repeat the same sins that happened in the past. During Yom Kippur part of repentance is not making the same sin over again, so that we can truly be forgiven by G-d.
I hope the Pope reconsiders his decision to allow those anti semetic holocaust deniers back to the Church.
Shalom - Dox
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Muman the Council you quoted in your post is very old and has been replaced at least once in the 1960's. In fact I think it may have even been updated again however I am not sure. You are looking at something that is almost 150 years old. Look for the newer one known as Vatican 2. I don't know about 'wanna-be' Catholics or wanna-be-Jews and I don't know who you are referring to as "we". Its been well over 35 years since I personally bothered with any organized religion so can't accept wann-be- status. I am not here to sell or tell you how great the R.C.C or any other organized religion is or is not. What I will tell you that whenever I see one of this type thread start it does nothing but disrupt the movement for weeks. You sound like a smart guy but some of the stuff I see written about the R.C.C by you and a few others in the past makes me roll my eyes and think of the time your waisting on garbage like that while the Arab world is doing every thing it can to destroy tiny Israel. I will be the first to agree with you that the Church has taken some very evil actions over the centuries and yes in early time people livid by church decree. Today the Church honestly does not have that hold on its followers when it comes to social issues. More over when I was growing up in the 60's and early 70's the Church made a great effort to teach its young people about Judaism and its customs and holidays as a result of the policies in Vatican 2. The R.C.C today is under a great deal of pressure to keep people in the fold. Muslims are making great inroads into countries that were once bastions of Catholicism. I think its very sad when a person like yourself classifies other Jews who are less strict as almost non Jews. People like you who have seen both sides of the coin should encourage people like that to learn more and follow the mitzvas closer. Lastly for you to say that Catholics should believe and follow everything that comes out of the Popes mouth or not be Catholics very insulting to some of our great Catholic members who support Israel and the Jewish people. I leave myself out of that group since for all practical purposes I would fit into a group known as lapsed Catholics.
Obviously you did not read my posting because I said that every Jew has the opportunity to do teshuva and I reserve judgement and often do attempt to see all Jews in a good light. A good example of this is when many members condemned Leonard Nimoy and I defended him because he has contributed a bit to Jewish education. I always attempt to see all Jews in a good light as it is a command of the Torah.
With that in mind I still have a responsibility to Torah to rebuke those who are not following the commands. This too is a command of the Torah and I will rebuke those who have missed the mark. I do not profess to be perfect either and I accept rebuke from a Jew who has in his mind to bring me up to a higher level.
Regarding the other religions I have a need to assess whether that religion is friendly or an enemy to Judaism. Not speaking for the individual members of that religion it seems to me that the Catholic Church has been an enemy of the Jewish people since its inception. I dont need to preach to everyone the history of this church and its involvement in Crusades, Inquisitions and pogroms throughout history. Only in the last forty years, since the Vatican 2 council, has the church even attempted to make amends for these grave crimes against my religion.
There is no reason that individuals could leave that church because of its ominous past. I don't understand staying in a church when you don't agree with the dogma. What kind of religion allows people to make it up as they go along. Also I condemned Obama for belonging to a church which preached black liberation theory and not leaving.
I have not blamed those people who belong to this church for this decision. But I do blame the church and I still have bad feelings about the pope and all his underlings. Nobody here has even attempted to defend this church, all they are doing is blaming me for bringing it up. I have good reason to be unforgiving to this church.
PS: I dont bash other religions. This is the 1st time I have commented on the Catholic Church. My singular goal in JTF is to help bring more Jews into religion and support for a strong Israel.
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I have many good friends who are Catholic, the pope is not one of them.
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Apparently the Second Vatican council also established the infallibility principle for the Bishops. According to the wiki site I posted above the following information is posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Second_Vatican_Council
In its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (1964), the Second Vatican Council declared:
"Among the principal duties of bishops the preaching of the Gospel occupies an eminent place. For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old, making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock. Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
… this infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed His Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals, extends as far as the deposit of Revelation extends, which must be religiously guarded and faithfully expounded. And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith, by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals. And therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly styled irreformable, since they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, promised to him in blessed Peter, and therefore they need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment. For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith. The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter. To these definitions the assent of the Church can never be wanting, on account of the activity of that same Holy Spirit, by which the whole flock of Christ is preserved and progresses in unity of faith."
Once again I am not attempting to discredit the religion. My only point is that the Pope and the Vatican are the representatives and the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church. They should not allow someone who denies the Holocaust to remain a Bishop in the church.
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I guess I don't really understand because in my opinion if a church makes a decision, morals should always be a big part of that decision.
I thought Benedict/Ratzinger was supposed to be a really strict conservative and traditionalist. I thought he might be good for the RCC because he was supposed to be conservative. Even when he started spouting about Protestants going to hell, I didn't care because I thought maybe he would at least be better than the previous pope who was a Muslim-lover.
I didn't realize that he was a traditionalist in the sense of going back to pro-Nazi ideas of his childhood. I'm sure the RCC could care less about what I say since I'm not involved at all with them, but it does make me feel very frustrated that he's not considering that he's letting someone evil back into his religion's fold.
Ruby, this Nazi and anti-semite issue is not of any relevancy for the CC, at least if this Pius people accept again in all important points the rule of Benedikt.
I think it should be an issue. I think that they should want their members to be good people or encourage them to be good people. Instead it looks like he's rewarding evil behavior.
To think that some moral points would influence the decision in any way is the view of people from outside with no understanding of the CC.
If they are not concerned with morals, what are they concerned with?
They are acting according to their ideology their goal and their interests. They are doing this since centuries. They are not influenced by the oppinion of the Jews and other people that are upset.
They should think about changing their tune because their numbers are declining. As someone else mentioned, they're losing ground to Islam, which is not good for any of us.
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Apparently the Second Vatican council also established the infallibility principle for the Bishops. According to the wiki site I posted above the following information is posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Second_Vatican_Council
In its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (1964), the Second Vatican Council declared:
"Among the principal duties of bishops the preaching of the Gospel occupies an eminent place. For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old, making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock. Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
… this infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed His Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals, extends as far as the deposit of Revelation extends, which must be religiously guarded and faithfully expounded. And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith, by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals. And therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly styled irreformable, since they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, promised to him in blessed Peter, and therefore they need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment. For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith. The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter. To these definitions the assent of the Church can never be wanting, on account of the activity of that same Holy Spirit, by which the whole flock of Christ is preserved and progresses in unity of faith."
Once again I am not attempting to discredit the religion. My only point is that the Pope and the Vatican are the representatives and the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church. They should not allow someone who denies the Holocaust to remain a Bishop in the church.
Hi Muman, I totally agree with you. The Pope has the responsibility to do what is right and that would be to not allow those holocaust deniers back to the Church.
There are many good Catholics who are against it also. I think that the members of the Catholic Church must speak out in huge numbers against this decision the Pope is about to make.
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Ruby, Ratzinger was never a Nazi. His family background is very Catholic. His brother is a catholic priest too. If he would have hate towards Jews the motivation comes not out of Nazism, but from old catholic doctrines.
The Catholic church sees themselve as the only real church on this earth in material form.
We protestants think, either that the church is already destroyed like the brethren movement or there is only an invisible church that stands for the high ideal of the one ecclesia.
Fundamentalist Catholics like Ratzinger and I am shure all his family has the same background are not tolerating anything beneath the CC. No bolschewists, no Nazis, nothing.
They fight with them always at least in the battle of ideas in order to convert them.
This morals you speak of are irrelevant for the decisions of Ratzinger. Of cause they have morals, but this morals are bound to nearly a millennium of traditions and dogmas. This is because they believe in the theological thesis of continued relevation.
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Ruby, Ratzinger was never a Nazi. His family background is very Catholic. His brother is a catholic priest too. If he would have hate towards Jews the motivation comes not out of Nazism, but from old catholic doctrines.
The Catholic church sees themselve as the only real church on this earth in material form.
We protestants think, either that the church is already destroyed like the brethren movement or there is only an invisible church that stands for the high ideal of the one ecclesia.
Fundamentalist Catholics like Ratzinger and I am shure all his family has the same background are not tolerating anything beneath the CC. No bolschewists, no Nazis, nothing.
They fight with them always at least in the battle of ideas in order to convert them.
This morals you speak of are irrelevant for the decisions of Ratzinger. Of cause they have morals, but this morals are bound to nearly a millennium of traditions and dogmas. This is because they believe in the theological thesis of continued relevation.
Either way this is very disturbing. You are saying that antisemitism is deeply entrenched in the Churches theology. We already know about that antisemitism. It would be easier to understand if this was just that the church was not aware of this bishops denial. But if the church is dredging up pre-second vatican council theology then it is an even scarier thing to comprehend.
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Muman, this is a disgusting development and is inexcusable, but it is hard to tell at this point whether this decision is based out of true anti-Semitism or just relativism. It's terrible either way, but the difference is between it being an evil decision and just a very stupid and amoral one.
I am not a Catholic, and have many key differences with the RCC, but I do know that many RCs are pro-Israel and pro-Jewish Zionists who do not agree with every single opinion given by the Vatican. We can't paint them all with one brush even if some of their leaders do make very bad decisions.
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Ruby, Ratzinger was never a Nazi. His family background is very Catholic. His brother is a catholic priest too. If he would have hate towards Jews the motivation comes not out of Nazism, but from old catholic doctrines.
The Catholic church sees themselve as the only real church on this earth in material form.
We protestants think, either that the church is already destroyed like the brethren movement or there is only an invisible church that stands for the high ideal of the one ecclesia.
Fundamentalist Catholics like Ratzinger and I am shure all his family has the same background are not tolerating anything beneath the CC. No bolschewists, no Nazis, nothing.
They fight with them always at least in the battle of ideas in order to convert them.
This morals you speak of are irrelevant for the decisions of Ratzinger. Of cause they have morals, but this morals are bound to nearly a millennium of traditions and dogmas. This is because they believe in the theological thesis of continued relevation.
Either way this is very disturbing. You are saying that antisemitism is deeply entrenched in the Churches theology. We already know about that antisemitism. It would be easier to understand if this was just that the church was not aware of this bishops denial. But if the church is dredging up pre-second vatican council theology then it is an even scarier thing to comprehend.
Muman, there are lots of different congregations in Christianity. You have to differ.
If you don't I could throw you in one pot with liberal Judaism, Neturei Karta, reconstructivism etc.
My point was, that the RCC has beneath the bible other sources. It is called tradition. They think basically, that the revelation didn't end with the NT. So there are books over books you wouldn't believe. The internal law of the RCC and the teachings that were given through the centuries binds it to special morals. They are not free in their decisions and it is not all logical what they teach.
Of course they will never accept Judaism as a way to salvation. The best you can get is that they leave the Jews alone.
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Muman, I don't believe in church infallibility, but some Jews do the same thing. There are many Jews who consider the opinions of certain rabbis, such as Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, to be divine and the direct revelation of G-d. Because Rabbi Yosef ruled that land-for-peace is halachically permissible in order to "save lives", directly supported Oslo, and stated that the Arabs are the brothers of Jews, hundreds of thousands of Jews supported these policies, which led to utter and complete disaster for the Jewish state. Granted, the magnitude of this may not have been as great as that of anti-Semitic popes who ordered crusades, expulsions, and pogroms, but it was still terrible.
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Pheasant,
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I dont have a problem with all of Christianity at all. My entire involvement in this thread is to say that what the Catholic Pope is doing is going to destroy whatever goodwill that Church has worked for forty years to reverse. I dont hold all people of Christian faith to the principles of the Catholic church. I am well aware of the various denominations and many of their precepts.
I am willing to reveal that my beliefs are firmly defined by Chassidic Orthodox Judaism. I have my own understandings of concepts but I dont assume that because I dont understand something it is not relevant. My understanding is that all Jews are a part of my family even though they don't observe the commandments the way I do.
C.F., I see your post which you just posted. I dont think that any student of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef thinks that he speaks with Hashem. There is a difference between believing that the Rebbe is a tzaddik and believing his is a prophet. Chassidic Judaism does put a lot of trust in the Tzaddik, so it is with Breslov Judaism which I am learning. But the Rabbi is not comparable to the pope. And I have not heard him ever say that land should be given for peace. This seems to be a slander you have been posting quite frequently. I did search for such a fact and was not able to find it. Please provide a link which proves this point. Many Rabbis have come out against giving land to the arabs. I will not listen to gossip and slander.
PS: According to the wikipedia article I am looking at that decision was retracted...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
Halakhic authority
Rabbi Yosef is generally considered one of the most important halakhic authorities. In particular, he is widely considered as the ultimate halakhic authority for Sefaradi and Mizrahi Jews ("Maran").
Some of his more famous legal rulings include:
* It is legitimate and permissible to give territory from the Land of Israel in order to achieve a genuine peace. When the Oslo Accords were followed by an intifada, this opinion was later retracted.[3]
* A collective recognition of the Jewishness of the Beta Israel, after there was a suspicion that their conversion to Judaism was not in compliance with halakha.
* Allowing the wives of Israel Defense Force soldiers who have been missing in action for a long time to remarry, a verdict which is known as "the releasure of agunot" (התרת עגונות).
* Women should not wear a wig (sheitel) as a form of head covering, but should wear headscarves instead. (According to halakha, Jewish married women should cover their hair in public for reasons of modesty).
More:
Position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Despite his controversial public comments, Rabbi Yosef has long been a distinguished rabbinical authority advocating peace negotiations in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and has done so since the late 1980s. His main justification is the halakhic principle of Pikuach Nefesh, in which all the Jewish commandments (excluding adultery, idolatry, and murder) are put on hold if a life is put in danger. Using an argument first articulated by the late American rabbinical leader Joseph Soloveitchik, Rabbi Yosef claims that the Arab-Israeli conflict endangers human lives, thereby meeting the above criteria and overruling the priority of commandments pertaining to settling the land of Israel.[7] Therefore, Israel is permitted — even obligated if saving lives is a definitive outcome — to make serious efforts to reach a peace settlement as well as to make arrangements to properly protect its citizens.[8][9] Rabbi Yosef first applied the Pikuach Nefesh principle to Israel's conflicts with its neighbors in 1979, when he ruled that this argument granted Israel authority to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt. Some claimed, however, that the ruling was also motivated by Rabbi Yosef's desire to oppose his Ashkenazi colleague, Rabbi Shlomo Goren.[10]
Using this precedent, Rabbi Yosef instructed Shas to join Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's government coalition, and later that of Ehud Barak as well. However, Shas abstained on Oslo I and voted against the Oslo II agreement. Furthermore, as Oslo stalled and relations between Israelis and Palestinians began to deteriorate, and particularly following the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada, Rabbi Yosef and the party pulled "rightward", supporting the Likud.
In 2005, Rabbi Yosef repeatedly condemned the Gaza Disengagement. He argued that he was opposed to any unilateral action that occurred outside the framework of a peace agreement. Rabbi Yosef again cited the principle of Pikuach Nefesh, saying that empowering the Palestinians without a commitment to end terror would result in threatening Jewish lives, particularly in areas near Gaza in range of Qassam rocket attacks.[11] In contrast to some of his rabbinical colleagues, such as Rabbi Yosef Sholom Eliashiv, Rabbi Yosef refused to entertain the idea of holding a referendum on the disengagement, and instructed his MKs to vote against the plan when it came up in the Knesset.
Rabbi Yosef still maintains that Pikuach Nefesh applies to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and supports negotiations with the Palestinians. However, he no longer appears totally convinced that diplomacy with the present leadership can necessarily end the violence. Some media analysts have suggested that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert may be able to convince the rabbi to sign on to further unilateral actions by the government if concerted efforts toward negotiation fail.[12]
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In the RCC, bishops MUST obey commands of the Pope. The group Williamson belongs to (Society of St Pius X) has been separated from the regular Catholic church for years. The members were not regarded as excommunicated, but the four bishops consecreated by Archbishop Lefebvre WERE. The RCC was trying to get them back for a long time.
In order for them to be accepted back, and to have the excommunication lifted, the bishops had to agree to accept the authority of the Pope. I suspect the Pope wanted to lift the excommunications so that the bishops would now be back in the regular church....and then the Pope can order Williamson to shut up about his views, and the bishop would have to obey or be excommunicated again for disobedience.
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בס''ד
I have locked this topic because it is leading to unnecessary arguments between JTFers about their religious beliefs.
Catholicism and Judaism are very different religions. In JTF, we have decided to work together despite our theological differences because we are all facing two common enemies who endanger our very survival: one, the Muslim Nazis; and two, the "New World Order" Western politicians, news media and multinational corporations. These two enemies are currently winning in their war to destroy America, Israel and Western civilization. We are hoping to awaken people to the grave threat in order to turn the tide.
If we attempt to resolve all of our religious differences, we will never be able to work together.