JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on February 04, 2009, 11:39:06 AM
-
So apparently the pope is open to suggestion from outside the church. I am glad that the Pope is standing up against the evil in his church.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129776
Vatican: Holocaust Denier Must Recant Before Return to Church
Shevat 10, 5769, 04 February 09 06:24
by Hana Levi Julian
(IsraelNN.com) The Vatican has informed Bishop Richard Williamson that he must recant his denial of the Holocaust before he can be fully readmitted to the Roman Catholic Church.
A statement issued to the media by the Vatican's Secretariat of State on Wednesday also said that Pope Benedict XVI was unaware of Williamson's insistence that there were no Nazi gas chambers, and that only 300,000 Jews perished in the concentration camps, when he revoked his excommunication and that of three other bishops last month.
The statement came a day after German Chancellor Angela Merkel called on the Holy See to issue a "very clear" rejection of Holocaust denial. She added that there had not been adequate clarification of the Pontiff's stand on the matter.
The State of Israel had also warned the Vatican Wednesday that it expected to see "more explicit and unequivocal decisions and statements" about the issue of Holocaust denial in response to the reinstatement of a bishop who denies that Jews were exterminated in Nazi gas chambers.
Williamson, who was consecrated in 1988 with three others by the rebel conservative French archbishop Marcel Lefebvre against the wishes of the Holy See at that time, told a Swedish television interviewer on January 21, "I believe there were no gas chambers." He also reaffirmed his oft-stated belief that no more than 300,000 Jews perished in the Nazi concentration camps.
Israel's Chief Rabbinate broke ties with the Vatican last week to protest the papal decision.
"The State of Israel views the Vatican's decision… with regret and concern," read the statement released by the Foreign Ministry. "The reinstatement of a Holocaust denier by the Holy See offends every Jew, in Israel and around the world, and humiliates the memory of all Holocaust victims and survivors.
"We expect the Holy See to decisively renounce all Holocaust deniers in general, wherever they may be, and Bishop Williamson in particular," it said. "We view the recent remarks made by the Holy See and senior Vatican officials admonishing the manifestation of Holocaust denial as the first step in the right direction, and expect more explicit and unequivocal decisions and statements on this issue," it concluded.
Calls had been growing among Catholics themselves for the Pope to step down in response to his decision. "There is obviously a loss of confidence" in the Pope, said German Bishop of Hamburg Werner Thissen, who told the Hamburger Abendblatt daily newspaper on Monday that "rehabilitating a denier is always a bad idea."
Pope Benedict XVI is expected to visit Israel and the Palestinian Authority in May, after having received a written invitation last November from President Shimon Peres. The visit would be the third trip by a pope to Israel and Pope Benedict's first.
-
I think that generally, this Pope will be good. Another positive note to this story, is that it was nice to see the usual pathetic Jewish organizations speak up for a change.
-
It's all very good, but what I don't like is the way the question of Holocaust and Holocaust denial has become a kind of "cottage industry" for evil left-wing Jews and concealed anti-semites. They act very concerned about the Holocaust in order to slander and sabotage the Zionist movement. It's a replacement. Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Let's stop making it a "holy cow." Israel issued a statement! Who are they kidding, these treacherous, self-hating kikes? LET'S BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM OF TODAY!!! I would like to see Israel issuing statements about that instead!!!
-
It's all very good, but what I don't like is the way the question of Holocaust and Holocaust denial has become a kind of "cottage industry" for evil left-wing Jews and concealed anti-semites. They act very concerned about the Holocaust in order to slander and sabotage the Zionist movement. It's a replacement. Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Let's stop making it a "holy cow." Israel issued a statement! Who are they kidding, these treacherous, self-hating kikes? LET'S BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM OF TODAY!!! I would like to see Israel issuing statements about that instead!!!
yes like that weasel Norman Finkelstein
-
It's all very good, but what I don't like is the way the question of Holocaust and Holocaust denial has become a kind of "cottage industry" for evil left-wing Jews and concealed anti-semites. They act very concerned about the Holocaust in order to slander and sabotage the Zionist movement. It's a replacement. Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Let's stop making it a "holy cow." Israel issued a statement! Who are they kidding, these treacherous, self-hating kikes? LET'S BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM OF TODAY!!! I would like to see Israel issuing statements about that instead!!!
All Jews have a right to be concerned about the Holocaust because in Hislers Germany ALL JEWS were led to the gas chambers whether they were religious or secular. I think it is very callous and unJewish of you to be so cruel. I also disagree and think it is gravely wrong for a Jew to call a fellow Jew a kike. I have said this numerous times, have shown Torah which condemns such baseless hatred, and yet people think that it is cool.
The fact that the Pope has condemned the antisemites in the church is a GREAT event and one which should be celebrated. Do not divide AM YISROEL further by condemning all Jews who don't dress, act, or believe like you do,
-
This is not nearly enough, but it's a good start, at least.
-
It's all very good, but what I don't like is the way the question of Holocaust and Holocaust denial has become a kind of "cottage industry" for evil left-wing Jews and concealed anti-semites. They act very concerned about the Holocaust in order to slander and sabotage the Zionist movement. It's a replacement. Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Let's stop making it a "holy cow." Israel issued a statement! Who are they kidding, these treacherous, self-hating kikes? LET'S BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM OF TODAY!!! I would like to see Israel issuing statements about that instead!!!
I also have to object to this post. Jesse Jackson also said he was tired of hearing about the holocaust. Who can say that they are tired of hearing about the holocaust? Certainly nobody that lost family members to it, as I did would ever say that, nor would any survivor. If we do not remember and honour the dead, what good are we?
I think what bothered Rabbi Kahane (of blessed memory) about the way the holocaust is commemorated, is that Jews of today take great pleasure at condemning those who did not lift a finger to help Jews when they could have. We Jews should instead look critically at ourselves, at our own organizations who could have done so much but did not for their own reasons. While the Jews of Europe were fighting for their lives, the Jews of America were fighting for membership into the local country club. Jews must acknowledge that. But I would bet my bottom dollar that Rabbi Kahane would not approve of any Jew saying that he is tired about hearing of the holocaust.
We do have to be more concerned with the battles of today. This is of course right. But there are many lessons from the holocaust that we have yet to learn, and we won't learn them by forgetting about the holocaust. To prove this, I'm going to open up another thread asking our members about a period of Jewish history.
-
The German native Pope seems pro-Israel.
-
Turning the Holocaust into a "religion" has long been my pet peeve. Superficially, my opinion on this score coincides with that of Jew-haters. However, we are coming from two completely different perspectives. It's a little bit like left wing nuts and paleocons aligning against neocons in their mutual opposition to the war in Iraq. But for entirely different reasons!!! This is why a seeming agreement on a political question is often deceptive.
-
Turning the Holocaust into a "religion" has long been my pet peeve. Superficially, my opinion on this score coincides with that of Jew-haters. However, we are coming from two completely different perspectives. It's a little bit like left wing nuts and paleocons aligning against neocons in their mutual opposition to the war in Iraq. But for entirely different reasons!!! This is why a seeming agreement on a political question is often deceptive.
I dont think any Jew has turned the Holocaust into a religion {at least not a religious Jew}. But it is impossible to look at the event without having a Jewish perspective to understand. I am not going to explain 'why' the Holocaust against the Jews took place but it is similar to the story which our sages teach again and again. When the Jewish people are strong in their faith and observance of Hashems laws he is kind to us, when we diverge and disobey he will send agents into the world to remind us.
-
I stand behind the pope.
-
Turning the Holocaust into a "religion" has long been my pet peeve. Superficially, my opinion on this score coincides with that of Jew-haters. However, we are coming from two completely different perspectives. It's a little bit like left wing nuts and paleocons aligning against neocons in their mutual opposition to the war in Iraq. But for entirely different reasons!!! This is why a seeming agreement on a political question is often deceptive.
FWIW, I agree with you!
Rav Benjamin Ze'ev Kahane (HY"D) authored a little booklet about the Shoah and its Jewish theological implications; I agree 100% with it. I bought it many years ago, and if I can find it online, I'll link to it for you. I think you'd agree with it.
-
I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. :P
-
I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. :P
From what I hear, you don't like the pope, Vatican, or Catholic Church, so your opinion on the pope is invalid.
-
I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. :P
From what I hear, you don't like the pope, Vatican, or Catholic Church, so your opinion on the pope is invalid.
Hey, thats a bit rude. I think everyone is entitled to have an opinion of the Pope. Whether it will change him or he will listen is another story. This pope has done much to tear down Jewish-Catholic relations. I did respect Pope John Paul more than I do this pope.
-
I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. :P
From what I hear, you don't like the pope, Vatican, or Catholic Church, so your opinion on the pope is invalid.
Hey, thats a bit rude. I think everyone is entitled to have an opinion of the Pope. Whether it will change him or he will listen is another story. This pope has done much to tear down Jewish-Catholic relations. I did respect Pope John Paul more than I do this pope.
Forgive me ProJewCatholic, sorry If I hurt You! Honestly I really respect John Paul II.
-
I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. :P
From what I hear, you don't like the pope, Vatican, or Catholic Church, so your opinion on the pope is invalid.
Hey, thats a bit rude. I think everyone is entitled to have an opinion of the Pope. Whether it will change him or he will listen is another story. This pope has done much to tear down Jewish-Catholic relations. I did respect Pope John Paul more than I do this pope.
Forgive me ProJewCatholic, sorry If I hurt You! Honestly I really respect John Paul II.
I didnt mean to sound mean (no fun intented) I thought you had histility toward whoever the pope is, but you say you respected Pope John Paul, and I respected.
-
I am divided on Masha's post.
Part of me is horrified at what she wrote, and part of me thinks she has a valid point. The world does not respect whining, crying members of any group. Jews should constantly emphasize the Holocaust, but do so with an air of strength, zeal, and ferocity. Jews who constantly portray themselves as victims set themselves up to be victims even more. You don't see Muslim Nazis whining about their so-called "nakba" and asking for "dialogues" about it and official condolences for it--they are filled with vigor, rage, and hatred and DEMAND that the world destroy Israel for it. For all of their wickedness, the one thing Muslim Nazis do that is right is that they never act like wimps. The world pays attention to them because they ooze strength, force, and unity--something Jews and Christians have not been able to accomplish in 4,000 years.
Muman, I am getting really tired of your constant digs at Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. We don't agree with all that the pope does--end of story. This time he has done something right (whether or not it is enough is another story, but is besides the point right now in any event) and for that he does deserve credit. He listened to the protests of concerned Jews, Catholics, and other Christians and has taken a step in the right direction.
-
I am divided on Masha's post.
Part of me is horrified at what she wrote, and part of me thinks she has a valid point. The world does not respect whining, crying members of any group. Jews should constantly emphasize the Holocaust, but do so with an air of strength, zeal, and ferocity. Jews who constantly portray themselves as victims set themselves up to be victims even more. You don't see Muslim Nazis whining about their so-called "nakba" and asking for "dialogues" about it and official condolences for it--they are filled with vigor, rage, and hatred and DEMAND that the world destroy Israel for it. For all of their wickedness, the one thing Muslim Nazis do that is right is that they never act like wimps. The world pays attention to them because they ooze strength, force, and unity--something Jews and Christians have not been able to accomplish in 4,000 years.
Muman, I am getting really tired of your constant digs at Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. We don't agree with all that the pope does--end of story. This time he has done something right (whether or not it is enough is another story, but is besides the point right now in any event) and for that he does deserve credit. He listened to the protests of concerned Jews, Catholics, and other Christians and has taken a step in the right direction.
C.F.,
What the heck are you talking about? I did not attack the church or anyone. I have simply stated, again and again, that people should speak up and change the situation. Apparently doing so did change things. I was right, you were wrong.
There seems to be a bit of evil speech going on about me. What 'digs' have I made at the church? I have said that their history is full of some very gruesome events and this cannot be disputed. The only way to repent for past sins is to be honest and say you have done wrong. I am willing to forgive if the apology is sincere. It is very unfortunate that this event happened because it seemed that things were moving ahead {except for possible allegations that the Pope was a member of Hitlers youth}.
If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.
PS: Remember the story of Channukah when the Maccabees stood up to the Greeks? That was less than 4000 years ago... More like 2500 years ago... Jews have stood up against evil and succeeded.
-
If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.
C.F. is not an anti-Semite. He's one of the most loyal members of this board.
-
If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.
C.F. is not an anti-Semite. He's one of the most loyal members of this board.
I am familiar with C.F. and while his intentions are good he sometimes says things which are way overboard and ridiculous. Saying that I attacked the Church when the Church has attacked Jews for several centuries is completely unbelievable.
PS: I have no beef with anyone here. But I will defend myself when people besmirch my name. I have good relationships with all of Hashems creations. I have said many times that I work and live with people from all over the world with very diverse religions and cultures. I am one who believes all of humanity is created in Hashems image. But I will stand up when evil exists and speak out.
-
If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.
C.F. is not an anti-Semite. He's one of the most loyal members of this board.
I am familiar with C.F. and while his intentions are good he sometimes says things which are way overboard and ridiculous. Saying that I attacked the Church when the Church has attacked Jews for several centuries is completely unbelievable.
It's perfectly legitimate criticize an evil action done by the RCC or the RCC's evil history. However to say that those Catholics who don't go along with it or disagree with bad decisions the Pope makes are wannabe Catholics is a dig at our valued Catholic members. Many of those who follow that form of religion today do not follow what the Pope says on every issue and individuals who are sincere should not belittled in such a fashion.
Your posts seem to come from an air of "I'm holier than thou". It's not so much the topics you're discussing but how you discuss them that gives people the impression that you're always making digs.
-
If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.
C.F. is not an anti-Semite. He's one of the most loyal members of this board.
I am familiar with C.F. and while his intentions are good he sometimes says things which are way overboard and ridiculous. Saying that I attacked the Church when the Church has attacked Jews for several centuries is completely unbelievable.
It's perfectly legitimate criticize an evil action done by the RCC or the RCC's evil history. However to say that those Catholics who don't go along with it or disagree with bad decisions the Pope makes are wannabe Catholics is a dig at our valued Catholic members. Many of those who follow that form of religion today do not follow what the Pope says on every issue and individuals who are sincere should not belittled in such a fashion.
Your posts seem to come from an air of "I'm holier than thou". It's not so much the topics you're discussing but how you discuss them that gives people the impression that you're always making digs.
RS,
Im sorry if that is the impression which I have created. I would like to change that. I think we all share the same goals here. I was attracted to JTF because I want Israel to be strong, for Islam to be defeated, and for Chaim to be able to make Aliyah. Along the way I would like to discuss Jewish topics and Torah wisdom with fellow Jews.
Regarding the post where I said that those who don't follow the theology of the religion are 'wanna bes'. Im sorry if that offended anyone. But we do judge the less-observant Jews who follow the Judaism-lite approach. I take the Pope to be the head and mouth-piece for the RCC {which according to its own doctrine the Pope is the instrument of G-d}. It is very important to let the leader of such an influential organization know that what is happening is causing damage to the good-will which was created by previous Popes for the Jewish people. Once again I was not trying to dismiss the poster as being not a good Catholic but I just tried to express my view of Religion in general. We here at JTF are honest that there is no such thing as a Moderate Muslim because the Koran expressly calls for killing of infidels. I am not an expert on other religions and I believe it is a good thing for people to have faith in their religion. I would like to strengthen any spiritual bond anyone has with the creator of the world.
Please attempt to understand what I am saying. I am not saying anything in anger or to intimidate. I am looking for a peaceful solution in order to assist the era of peace which our prophets have foretold.
-
I did not attack the church or anyone.
Do you really want me to start?
I was right, you were wrong.
Show me where I said that we should not petition the pope to change or modify his ruling on Williamson.
I have said that their history is full of some very gruesome events and this cannot be disputed.
Classic strawman--look it up, if you don't know what that is.
I am willing to forgive if the apology is sincere.
Yeah, that's why you said again that you don't like the pope, even after he did this.
If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken.
Strawman.
I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down.
I said clearly that we should give him credit to listening to the protests of Christians and Jews.
So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.
Man, have you been smoking anything?
PS: Remember the story of Channukah when the Maccabees stood up to the Greeks? That was less than 4000 years ago... More like 2500 years ago... Jews have stood up against evil and succeeded.
Are you comparing me to the Greeks or what? LOL.
-
Im sorry if that is the impression which I have created. I would like to change that. I think we all share the same goals here. I was attracted to JTF because I want Israel to be strong, for Islam to be defeated, and for Chaim to be able to make Aliyah. Along the way I would like to discuss Jewish topics and Torah wisdom with fellow Jews.
Great goals. Now how will you accomplish them? Chaim has said he supports the USA being a Christian country. I'm assuming you disagree with this goal.
Regarding the post where I said that those who don't follow the theology of the religion are 'wanna bes'. Im sorry if that offended anyone.
IF?
But we do judge the less-observant Jews who follow the Judaism-lite approach. I take the Pope to be the head and mouth-piece for the RCC {which according to its own doctrine the Pope is the instrument of G-d}. It is very important to let the leader of such an influential organization know that what is happening is causing damage to the good-will which was created by previous Popes for the Jewish people. Once again I was not trying to dismiss the poster as being not a good Catholic but I just tried to express my view of Religion in general. We here at JTF are honest that there is no such thing as a Moderate Muslim because the Koran expressly calls for killing of infidels. I am not an expert on other religions and I believe it is a good thing for people to have faith in their religion. I would like to strengthen any spiritual bond anyone has with the creator of the world.
You seemed to want to weaken the bond they had with God and force them to worship the Pope's every word. At some points in history the average person was not very well educated nor did they have direct access to any scriptures themselves. Everything they knew came down from priests. That's one reason why they acted in more of a sheeple fashion. These days almost everyone can read what are considered holy texts for themselves and try to understand them and decide which doctrines of their church they agree with.
Because Catholicism is so widespread, there are many variations of belief among the different people involved in it. You can't have a huge organization like that whose members all agree on everything, and so with that same logic, it's impossible for one man (the Pope) to speak in ways in which all members will agree with him. The RCC is not exactly a little cult like David Koresh's Waco thing where everyone is of one mind.
If we have Catholic members who acknowledge the bad things in the past and are sincerely trying to help us today, I think we should welcome them. I'm not a Catholic and I have my own problems with the RCC as far as doctrine goes, but I don't like seeing Catholics on the forum belittled if they want to help and are good people. I had Catholic members in my family from my father's side and as far as I know none of them ever said anything evil against Jews and at least two of them were WW2 veterans.
-
Catholicism does not mandate 100% ideological conformity with each and every Pontiff. What it does demand is that all individual Catholics respect and obey his decisions. It is perfectly possible to be a completely devout and moral Catholic and have personal differences of opinion with the Pope. Just for the record.
And Muman, you never gave me a really convincing answer when I pointed out to you that SOME Jews consider certain rabbinical scholars to be almost divine and to obey every ruling that they make word-for-word. We even took the discussion offline and I took great pains to explain myself properly.
-
Catholicism does not mandate 100% ideological conformity with each and every Pontiff. What it does demand is that all individual Catholics respect and obey his decisions. It is perfectly possible to be a completely devout and moral Catholic and have personal differences of opinion with the Pope. Just for the record.
And Muman, you never gave me a really convincing answer when I pointed out to you that SOME Jews consider certain rabbinical scholars to be almost divine and to obey every ruling that they make word-for-word. We even took the discussion offline and I took great pains to explain myself properly.
C.F.,
There is a big difference between taking the words of a Rabbi who is passing judgements based on Halachic principles and the Pope. There are no Jews who consider their Rabbi to have a direct link to Hashem. That is against the Jewish religion. There is no comparison to the power which the Pope has over the RCC and some Rabbis and their pupils. I think you have a misunderstanding of Judaism. Please show me these Jews who believe that their Rabbi is speaking for Hashem? The age of prophets ended when the Second Temple was destroyed. The Rabbi does have a power vested in him from the Torah which is to interpret the laws and establish new Halachas. That is very different from believing that the Rabbi is infallible.
PS: Many of the greatest Sages of Jewish wisdom had conflicts and differences. This is well documented in our Talmud.
-
There are no Jews who consider their Rabbi to have a direct link to Hashem.
That right away is false. Many Rebbes throughout history have been considered to be messianic, or at least prophetic.
That is against the Jewish religion.
Umm, do you think saying something often enough makes it true?
There is no comparison to the power which the Pope has over the RCC and some Rabbis and their pupils.
Reminder--I said SOME Jews consider SOME Rebbes to be divinely infallible.
Please show me these Jews who believe that their Rabbi is speaking for Hashem?
I have, many times. Since you don't like me using the example of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, I will use the example of a rabbi I agree with much more, the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
The age of prophets ended when the Second Temple was destroyed. The Rabbi does have a power vested in him from the Torah which is to interpret the laws and establish new Halachas. That is very different from believing that the Rabbi is infallible.
In practice you and I both know this distinction is sometimes blurred.
Either you are going to apologize for attacking Catholics or you aren't, it's that simple. Otherwise I have no more responses for you.
-
Muman and C.F. are both very righteous people, and I think they should stop having this silly argument.
-
Muman and C.F. are both very righteous people, and I think they should stop having this silly argument.
I think C.F. is making a valid point.
I've been trying to find a diplomatic way to say the same thing to Muman.
I'm glad that C.F. finally did.
-
Holocaust denial is sickening and this is a good step by the Pope. It shouldn't stop us in condemning left-wing Jews who attempt to make the holocaust a central pillar of Jewish identity.
-
It shouldn't stop us in condemning left-wing Jews who attempt to make the holocaust a central pillar of Jewish identity.
This is exactly what I am talking about. A central pillar of Jewish identity. It's a very dangerous and insidious development. Another thing is, all this hand-wringing about the Holocaust is done instead of something else! Instead of fighting for Israel today! Fighting against the hydra of anti-semitism and anti-Zionism rising its ugly heads today! It has turned into a kind of sold and bought "indulgence," if you will. You get a "free out of jail" card. If you lament the Holocaust, you get to lambast Israel all you will. The louder you do the first, the louder you can do the second. Do you all understand what I am saying? It's not about the Holocaust, it's about the "politics" of the Holocaust. If only 10% of the energy that goes into decrying Holocaust denying went into decrying evil Israel detractors, how much better our world would be! You know how this website replaces some words that you write with other words? This is what I'd like to do. Every time someone opens his mouth with an intention to denounce a Holocaust denier, I would like the actual words out of his mouth to denounce an Israel-basher!
And another thought. There is something pitiful and undignified about a people who base their identity on what they have suffered. Who keep complaining and going on and on about their victimary status. I don't want to be a poor victim. I want Jews to shout from all hilltops about the great Jewish heroes, about the great victories that the Jewish people have won. I want us to shout about what we are going to do. How we are going to unite with all the righteous gentiles and take on the unrighteous of the world and trample them under our feet, squash them, decimate them, and obliterate them! How G-d is on our side because our side is the right side of truth, the right side of history! How not only they but their memory will be completely obliterated, and nothing will remain, nothing will commemorate their heinous, wicked, miserable lives - not a headstone, not a legend, nothing! I want our enemies to think of us as fierce, pugnacious, and invincible, and I want them to shake in their boots and pee in their pants when they see us. This is how I want Jews to be thought of. And this is why I think we should boycott the Holocaust cottage industry.
-
My son has been upset because he has to study the "Holocaust" (its more properly called the Churban) in school. He feels burned out on it; he had to learn it in middle school in NJ (NJ mandates holocaust ed), and he just feels he has reached saturation point. He is a good Jewish boy, just tired of it all. He said the focus solely on the genocide makes him feel that that's all being Jewish is about, being a victim.
His teacher is requiring him in 10th grade to read NIGHT by Ellie the Weasel. He does NOT want to read it. I told him I would give him a brief synopsis of what its about, and then together, we will write an essay telling how WE feel about all of this, from a rightwing Jewish Torah POV.
The Nazi genocide (Churban) is ONLY ONE of MANY tragedies that have befallen our people. And I believe, like the other tragedies, it was allowed to happen by Hashem to punish us for our aveiros. The goyim are an instrument in the hand of Hashem, but they MUST NOT take delight in this because G-d will destroy them ultimately with much agony if they do take joy in it.
I do not like Jewish children studying the Churban OUT OF CONTEXT of Jewish history. Jewish history is a continuum; to take it out of its normal context, as liberal secular Jews do, is to encourage people not to see G-d's Hand in all of Jewish history.
The leftist Jews want Jews and others to feel despair and not turn to G-d. They want Jews to feel that there was no way we could have prevented the Churban, but we could have if we had done teshuvah.
For a proper JEWISH Torah insight into why these things happen, study Derech Hashem by the Ramchal, and also SHOAH (published by Mesorah).
It shouldn't stop us in condemning left-wing Jews who attempt to make the holocaust a central pillar of Jewish identity.
This is exactly what I am talking about. A central pillar of Jewish identity. It's a very dangerous and insidious development. Another thing is, all this hand-wringing about the Holocaust is done instead of something else! Instead of fighting for Israel today! Fighting against the hydra of anti-semitism and anti-Zionism rising its ugly heads today! It has turned into a kind of sold and bought "indulgence," if you will. You get a "free out of jail" card. If you lament the Holocaust, you get to lambast Israel all you will. The louder you do the first, the louder you can do the second. Do you all understand what I am saying? It's not about the Holocaust, it's about the "politics" of the Holocaust. If only 10% of the energy that goes into decrying Holocaust denying went into decrying evil Israel detractors, how much better our world would be! You know how this website replaces some words that you write with other words? This is what I'd like to do. Every time someone opens his mouth with an intention to denounce a Holocaust denier, I would like the actual words out of his mouth to denounce an Israel-basher!
And another thought. There is something pitiful and undignified about a people who base their identity on what they have suffered. Who keep complaining and going on and on about their victimary status. I don't want to be a poor victim. I want Jews to shout from all hilltops about the great Jewish heroes, about the great victories that the Jewish people have won. I want us to shout about what we are going to do. How we are going to unite with all the righteous gentiles and take on the unrighteous of the world and trample them under our feet, squash them, decimate them, and obliterate them! How G-d is on our side because our side is the right side of truth, the right side of history! How not only they but their memory will be completely obliterated, and nothing will remain, nothing will commemorate their heinous, wicked, miserable lives - not a headstone, not a legend, nothing! I want our enemies to think of us as fierce, pugnacious, and invincible, and I want them to shake in their boots and pee in their pants when they see us. This is how I want Jews to be thought of. And this is why I think we should boycott the Holocaust cottage industry.
-
I just heard Ask JTF, belatedly, and heard Chaim's comments on the current pontiff, and agree with them 100%. I do think Pope Benedict/Ratzinger acted out of anti-Semitism when he reinstated this Amalek devil Williamson. Still, there is a fine line between criticizing guilty popes and their actions and attacking all of Catholicism. I am not a Catholic, but there are many fine Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ (to me) and many fine Catholic Zionists (to all of us) who have nothing to do with anti-Semitic and Nazilike actions by popes past or present. We need to be very careful here.
-
I just heard Ask JTF, belatedly, and heard Chaim's comments on the current pontiff, and agree with them 100%. I do think Pope Benedict/Ratzinger acted out of anti-Semitism when he reinstated this Amalek devil Williamson. Still, there is a fine line between criticizing guilty popes and their actions and attacking all of Catholicism. I am not a Catholic, but there are many fine Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ (to me) and many fine Catholic Zionists (to all of us) who have nothing to do with anti-Semitic and Nazilike actions by popes past or present. We need to be very careful here.
Hi CF, I agree we have to be careful because there are many wonderful Catholics who support the Jews and Israel. Having that said, I must add that as the head of the Catholic Church, it is the absolute responsibility of the Pope to reconsider his decision about this Holocaust denier. If the Pope allows him to remain in the Church, then I find the Pope guilty of ( anti-semitism ) to a gross degree. Allowing this azzhole Holocaust denier to remain in the Church, is telling the world that he has no regrets being a Hitler youth.
I hope for the sake of all good Catholics, this Holocaust denier is banned by the Pope. If the Pope fails to do this, I will consider him nothing but another anti semite who came into power.
Shalom - Dox
-
Hi CF, I agree we have to be careful because there are many wonderful Catholics who support the Jews and Israel. Having that said, I must add that as the head of the Catholic Church, it is the absolute responsibility of the Pope to reconsider his decision about this Holocaust denier. If the Pope allows him to remain in the Church, then I find the Pope guilty of ( anti-semitism ) to a gross degree. Allowing this azzhole Holocaust denier to remain in the Church, is telling the world that he has no regrets being a Hitler youth.
I hope for the sake of all good Catholics, this Holocaust denier is banned by the Pope. If the Pope fails to do this, I will consider him nothing but another anti semite who came into power.
Your assessment is completely fair. While I give the pope credit for caving to the pressure and requiring that Williamson take back the worst of his Jew-hatred, the fact that he reinstated him to begin with is beyond the pale.
-
Every religion is going to have adherents or leaders that do or say bad things. If you look at the catachism (law of the catholic church) it does not tell catholics to be antiJewish..If "catholics" or leaders of the catholic church don't follow this catachism, it's their mistake...just like if Jews don't follow the Torah..
-
Every religion is going to have adherents or leaders that do or say bad things. If you look at the catachism (law of the catholic church) it does not tell catholics to be antiJewish..If "catholics" or leaders of the catholic church don't follow this catachism, it's their mistake...just like if Jews don't follow the Torah..
Hi, I have to agree with you. There are good and bad people in all religions excluding Islam...in Islam there are no good people. If you see anything positive about Islam let me know, until then I will judge it for what it is...a death and destruction cult.
May G-d bless you!
Shalom - Dox
-
Every religion is going to have adherents or leaders that do or say bad things. If you look at the catachism (law of the catholic church) it does not tell catholics to be antiJewish..If "catholics" or leaders of the catholic church don't follow this catachism, it's their mistake...just like if Jews don't follow the Torah..
Hi, I have to agree with you. There are good and bad people in all religions excluding Islam...in Islam there are no good people. If you see anything positive about Islam let me know, until then I will judge it for what it is...a death and destruction cult.
May G-d bless you!
Shalom - Dox
I hope and suspect that there are some people who call themselves muslims that can be "good", but the doctrine of Islam is dispicable, whereas I defy anyone to find anything in the new testament that condones antisemitism or killing.
-
Any Muslim who is "good" is not a real Muslim. They are either extremely ignorant of their own religion, or deliberately defy it and thus are not real Muslims.
-
Any Muslim who is "good" is not a real Muslim. They are either extremely ignorant of their own religion, or deliberately defy it and thus are not real Muslims.
Ruth Ginsberg's face is so sickening, I see a bitter angry woman behind her eyes.
I mean it's downright scary! I hope someday you remove that pic of her.
I hate to see evil faces.
Shalom - Dox
-
Pope Benedict is good pope for being German. Don't forget both German left and right recent USA and Jews for defreat in both world wars and particulary for ashaming their beloved country after WWII. As for RCC there is nothing Roman in it since Charl le Magne. Call it Frankish church. You can't epect the pope who didn't have Jewish friends in his youth and don't fought in resitance like JPII to be empathic towards Holocaust. Intead he had shitleryouth as his role model. Still he's not nazi but unconcius old stock antisemite. One last thing; imams in Londonistan speaks worse things than Wiliamson and you're not allowed to point it out, becouse MSM picked this case not help Jews but to attack RCC the last bastion of conservative G-dly values. BTW this italian holocaust denier Abrahamowich was kicked out from PX society.
-
Pope Benedict is good pope for being German. Don't forget both German left and right recent USA and Jews for defreat in both world wars and particulary for ashaming their beloved country after WWII. As for RCC there is nothing Roman in it since Charl le Magne. Call it Frankish church. You can't epect the pope who didn't have Jewish friends in his youth and don't fought in resitance like JPII to be empathic towards Holocaust. Intead he had shitleryouth as his role model. Still he's not nazi but unconcius old stock antisemite. One last thing; imams in Londonistan speaks worse things than Wiliamson and you're not allowed to point it out, becouse MSM picked this case not help Jews but to attack RCC the last bastion of conservative G-dly values. BTW this italian holocaust denier Abrahamowich was kicked out from PX society.
Abrahamowich said he can say things since his father is Jewish :::D :::D
-
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,31341.0.html
Priest: Gas chambers were for disinfection
Conservative Italian priest compares Holocaust to other genocides like 'that committed in Gaza'
Ynet
Published: 01.29.09, 18:18 / Israel Jewish Scene
Conservative Catholic priest Floriano Abrahamowicz said Thursday that "the only thing certain" about the gas chambers "was that they were used for disinfection."
Another priest who denied the Holocaust altogether was rehabilitated by the pope.
Abrahamowicz, of Treviso in northern Italy, was quoted by the Tribuna di Treviso on Thursday in a report that received worldwide coverage due to the pope's recent rehabilitation of a bishop who denied the Holocaust, sparking a battle between the Vatican and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.
Abrahamowicz is a traditionalist like British-born Richard Williamson, whose excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict on Saturday along with three other bishops after 20 years of exile.
The Treviso priest said he could not say for sure that people were murdered in the gas chambers because he had not investigated the claim.
He said he did not doubt six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, but compared the Nazi murder of the Jews to "other genocides" that did not receive similar publicity, including Israel's military offensive in the Gaza Strip and the allies' bombing of German cities during WWII.
Advertisement
"The Israelis cannot say that the genocide they suffered at the hands of the Nazis was graver than that occurring in Gaza just because they killed several thousand people while the Nazis killed six million," Abrahamowicz was quoted as saying.
[b]He denied that he and other conservatives were anti-Semites, and stressed that his father was a Jew.[/b] However he described the Jewish people as slayers of G-d, and called on the Jews to "adopt our lord Jesus".