JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on August 19, 2009, 01:05:34 AM
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I split this thread from a different thread...
The question we are asking of Chaim is whether this is a mitzvah {command/good deed} for non-Jews to do?
Specifically whether Hashem commanded righteous gentiles to 'be fruitful and multiply' as he commanded Adam and Chava in Gan Eden.
I would be interested in the sources for this understanding.
muman613
Very eloquently put, and actually correct.. The Noachide laws were given to Noah after the world had become foul with theft and immorality. Many things changed at that time as Hashem wanted to start over again... But Noah was a disappointment. It is interesting that he was considered the most righteous of his generation, yet he was lowered in stature by the end of his story. The nations got the seven Noachide laws in order to maintain order in the world. The mitzvah of procreation was a gift given by Hashem to the Jewish nation at mount Sinai along with the 612 others.
If the nations were to have this mitzvah then the world may once again be overflowing with theft and immorality.
I don't want to argue with a religious Jew, and that is not what I am trying to do here, but I don't follow this reasoning. The Noahide Laws are basic rules for civilized behavior that are mandatory on all mankind, although very few live by them. Surely G-d knew that the vast majority would never live by the Noahide Laws, so therefore it's kind of moot to fear that increased procreation caused by all mankind abiding by the 7NLs would lead to a planet even more debased than the current one. If somebody is going to procreate because G-d commanded it of everyone, then they are probably going to obey the other NLs like not murdering, not committing immorality or animal torture, etc. too.
Also, the proclamation to be fruitful (I would not call it a commandment, personally, based on my readings of Genesis, it appears to be a gift/blessing proclamation--I thought the only true commandment pre-Fall is not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge) comes before the Fall of Man and LONG before the address on Mount Sinai. If there is some Scripture that I am missing or overlooking here please feel free to share it, but that's what I have always gotten out of this part of the Bible. If it is indeed a mitzvah, though, it would seem only logical that it applies to all of humankind, or at least all humans that are interested in righteousness, based on its placement in human history. Have there been any Torah sages who have argued that Gen 1:28 applies to all mankind? I do believe Chaim thinks it does (all righteous people, at least).
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Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.
And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?
When Reform was 'invented'
But Reform Judaism was created to by Moses Mendelsohn as an attempt to integrate Jews into secular society. He wanted everybody to be frum but just to join the working world and pretend to not be frum on the outside with all the anti-semites. It was his followers that pissed away Judaism and took it to a worse level. His intentions were for partial assimilation ie. on the outside. But he maintained every Jew should still keep the 613. I forgot the follower of his that took it farther.
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How long did it take after Mendelsohn before Jews started bowing down to the holy and sacred negro gd?
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Very eloquently put, and actually correct.. The Noachide laws were given to Noah after the world had become foul with theft and immorality. Many things changed at that time as Hashem wanted to start over again... But Noah was a disappointment. It is interesting that he was considered the most righteous of his generation, yet he was lowered in stature by the end of his story. The nations got the seven Noachide laws in order to maintain order in the world. The mitzvah of procreation was a gift given by Hashem to the Jewish nation at mount Sinai along with the 612 others.
If the nations were to have this mitzvah then the world may once again be overflowing with theft and immorality.
I don't want to argue with a religious Jew, and that is not what I am trying to do here, but I don't follow this reasoning. The Noahide Laws are basic rules for civilized behavior that are mandatory on all mankind, although very few live by them. Surely G-d knew that the vast majority would never live by the Noahide Laws, so therefore it's kind of moot to fear that increased procreation caused by all mankind abiding by the 7NLs would lead to a planet even more debased than the current one. If somebody is going to procreate because G-d commanded it of everyone, then they are probably going to obey the other NLs like not murdering, not committing immorality or animal torture, etc. too.
Also, the proclamation to be fruitful (I would not call it a commandment, personally, based on my readings of Genesis, it appears to be a gift/blessing proclamation--I thought the only true commandment pre-Fall is not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge) comes before the Fall of Man and LONG before the address on Mount Sinai. If there is some Scripture that I am missing or overlooking here please feel free to share it, but that's what I have always gotten out of this part of the Bible. If it is indeed a mitzvah, though, it would seem only logical that it applies to all of humankind, or at least all humans that are interested in righteousness, based on its placement in human history. Have there been any Torah sages who have argued that Gen 1:28 applies to all mankind? I do believe Chaim thinks it does (all righteous people, at least).
The entire point of the mitzvah is to create Jews and to fill the world with Torah and mitzvos. Goyim aren't commanded for this because no matter what, they have no Torah and Mitzvos.
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How long did it take after Mendelsohn before Jews started bowing down to the holy and sacred negro gd?
No clue.
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Goyim are still expected to conform to basic standards of civility and to believe in and worship the one true G-d though. Why wouldn't God insist that righteous Gentiles increase in number? Chaim believes that RGs must be fruitful and multiply after all.
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No clue.
I don't understand what it is with people-groups becoming so insanely self-hating. American Jews worship the holy negro, who is responsible for more murders of American Jews than any other group. Negroes worship the holy Arab, who is responsible for more enslavement and murder of blacks than every other ethnicity combined.
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Goyim are still expected to conform to basic standards of civility and to believe in and worship the one true G-d though. Why wouldn't G-d insist that righteous Gentiles increase in number? Chaim believes that RGs must be fruitful and multiply after all.
In the first Rashi of the Torah in Beresheit, Rashi points out that the world was created for the sake of the Jewish people. Therefore, in my opinion, there shouldn't be a commandment for goyim to multiply when the world wasn't created for them. The point is for Jews to be numerous.
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How can the world be created just for Jewish people when Jews were only given Eretz Yisrael? Are there other lands that Jews are supposed to fill someday?
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No clue.
I don't understand what it is with people-groups becoming so insanely self-hating. American Jews worship the holy negro, who is responsible for more murders of American Jews than any other group. Negroes worship the holy Arab, who is responsible for more enslavement and murder of blacks than every other ethnicity combined.
If we understood it, we wouldn't be here right now, would we?
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Goyim are still expected to conform to basic standards of civility and to believe in and worship the one true G-d though. Why wouldn't G-d insist that righteous Gentiles increase in number? Chaim believes that RGs must be fruitful and multiply after all.
In the first Rashi of the Torah in Beresheit, Rashi points out that the world was created for the sake of the Jewish people. Therefore, in my opinion, there shouldn't be a commandment for goyim to multiply when the world wasn't created for them. The point is for Jews to be numerous.
Thats a bit forthright but it is what some of our sages have said.
The Jews bring blessing to the world we are supposed to be a light to the nations.
When Moshiach comes we will bring the world together in peace, to worship Hashem in the Holy Temple.
This is what the Prophets of Israel prophecied in Tanakh.
It is also what Matisyahu is alluding to in the song One Day.
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I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).
I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.
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I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).
I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.
Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.
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Hopefully he will. I have heard this topic before on Ask JTF and he was very clear about it.
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I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).
I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.
Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.
It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.
I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.
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I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).
I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.
Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.
K now I'll never be able to get to sleep without having a definitive answer. Can we make a new thread to get his attention to look at this one?
It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.
I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.
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Maybe Ill split this thread...
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Thanks.
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Oh, I see it now.
BTW, I thought mitzvot were only for Jews. I thought commandments for Gentiles are called Noahide Laws.
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Oh, I see it now.
BTW, I thought mitzvot were only for Jews. I thought commandments for Gentiles are called Noahide Laws.
mitzvot is hebrew for commandments.
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I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.
The Shabbat commandment was given specifically to the Jews, but Gen 1:28 was given to all mankind (at the time).
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mitzvot is hebrew for commandments.
How then do you say Jewish commandments?
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mitzvot is hebrew for commandments.
How then do you say Jewish commandments?
Mitzvot La'Yehudim. or Taryag Mitzvot which means the 613 mitzvot.
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In the meanwhile I will do some searches on a kosher search engine for some answers to this issue..
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/2/Q1/
AT&T Bell Laboratories, in Columbus, Ohio asks:
n Parshat Vayishlach, you wrote that "There are only three mitzvot in Sefer Bereishit. The first mitzvah, to be fruitful and multiply, is essential to the survival of all of Mankind..." And yet, on the surface, "p'ru ur'vu" is not one of the commandments for the Bnei Noach. Why not?
Dear AT&T,
There are 7 commandments from Hashem for the Bnei Noach to govern their behavior. They are:
Prohibition against Prohibition against adultery.
idolatry. Prohibition against eating a limb
Prohibition against of a live animal.
blasphemy. The commandment to establish courts
Prohibition against of law.
murder.
Prohibition against
theft.
The Sefer HaChinuch lists the three mitzvot taught in the Book of Bereishit, and writes that they apply only to the Jewish People.
1. "Be fruitful and multiply" in Parshat Bereishit.
2. "Brit mila" in Parshat Lech Lecha.
3. "Don't eat the gid hanashe" in Vayishlach.
Brit mila is a covenant "between Me and you [Avraham] and your seed after you" (Bereishit 17:10). Thus, the Bnei Noach are excluded from this mitzvah.
In Vayishlach, the Torah states "The children of Israel shall not eat the gid hanashe" (Bereishit 31:33). Once again the Bnei Noach are exempted.
The mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply was given to the first Man (Bereishit 1:28) and repeated to Noach (Bereishit 9:1). It would appear equally incumbent upon all Mankind. Yet, this is *not* one of the 7 Noachide Laws.
The Talmud explains that:
"All mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach and *repeated* at Sinai, apply to both Jews and non-Jews. Those mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach but *not* repeated at Sinai were given only to the Jews."
"P'ru ur'vu" was not repeated at Sinai. So, even though Adam and Noach had been personally commanded to reproduce, the mitzvah did not become one of the 7 Noachide Laws.
It should be noted, however, that there is a special obligation to ensure that the world is fully populated, and that this obligation is equally applicable to Jew and Gentile. It is derived from a verse in the writings of the Prophets which calls upon Mankind inhabit as much of the Creation as possible:
"He [Hashem] did not create the world to be desolate; [rather] to be settled he formed it."
Sources:
* Tractate Sanhedrin, 59a.
* Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim ch. 9.
* Sefer HaChinuch.
* The Path of the Righteous Gentile, by Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Regalsky (Targum Press).
* Isaiah 45.
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So basically, you are saying that righteous Gentiles are commanded to multiply, but that it's not one of the Noahide Laws?
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I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).
I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.
Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.
It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.
I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.
We were all created "Btzelem Elokim" In Hashem's image, but don't only Jews have neshamas?
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So basically, you are saying that righteous Gentiles are commanded to multiply, but that it's not one of the Noahide Laws?
What I gather from the previous post is that the command to fill the earth with life is fulfilled when the righteous gentiles are fruitful and multiply..
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I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).
I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.
Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.
It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.
I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.
We were all created "Btzelem Elokim" In Hashem's image, but don't only Jews have neshamas?
Of course this is a politically incorrect question and one which we should not ponder here...
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I thought that the goal of the whole world was for Jews to be obedient and faithful to Hashem, and for Gentiles to be faithful and righteous and obedient to Hashem too (albeit they don't have so many laws to follow).
I am positive that Chaim has said that righteous Gentiles must multiply, and that it is a sin for Gentiles to waste seed. He must have a halachic source for that.
Will Chaim read this thread? Maybe he can answer this.
It is possible that he may... It would be interesting to hear his opinion on this topic. I would like to know the source for this opinion.
I would say that the concept of all mankind being made in Hashems image would make any waste of human potential {especially a Righteous Gentiles} a chillul Hashem, or a desecration of his holy name. But then this concept could be applied to just about every commandment, including observing Shabbat.
We were all created "Btzelem Elokim" In Hashem's image, but don't only Jews have neshamas?
Of course this is a politically incorrect question and one which we should not ponder here...
Sorry, didn't think it mattered. I'll be more careful.
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If a Gentile obeys the seven NLs and does not procreate, is he or she unrighteous then?
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If a Gentile obeys the seven NLs and does not procreate, is he or she unrighteous then?
According to what I understand a non-Jew is only required to perform the seven NLs. Of course a righteous non-Jew may gain some merit from obeying Hashem. But there is a concept that there is more merit when one does something they are obliged to than one who does something they are not obliged to...
I would give merit to a non-Jew who considered this a command from Hashem and conducts his marriage according in a holy manner... I do not know how the calculation in Shemayim is done..
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What is Shemayim? I'm sorry but I don't know any of these Hebrew terms.
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What is Shemayim? I'm sorry but I don't know any of these Hebrew terms.
shomayaim is heaven
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What is Shemayim? I'm sorry but I don't know any of these Hebrew terms.
It is the Hebrew word for 'The Heavens'.. Like where the Heavenly Tribunal is held {The Judgement day}.
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How can the world be created just for Jewish people when Jews were only given Eretz Yisrael? Are there other lands that Jews are supposed to fill someday?
"The world was created for Jewish people" means that the main goal of the creation was that the Jewish people observe 613 commandments of G-d. One of the commandments is to live in the Land of Israel, therefore Jews are not supposed to fill any other land than Eretz Israel. Neither now nor in the future.
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I assumed that that is what it meant, but didn't know.
In any case, I'm still waiting for Chaim. He was so sure of himself when he addressed this on Ask JTF before. I still do not think that people must procreate in order to be righteous, but I really want to see Chaim's reasoning.
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It is very clear if you just read genesis 1:
20 And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.'
21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.'
It is a blessing that God gave to all living things.
And if this is not enough for you, read genesis 9:
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth.
The subtle point is, that Jews consider this a commandment, but the text say's it's a blessing. Anyway God's intention in this case is very clear. He wants all man kind to multiply.
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Re: Is it a mitzvah for Righteous Gentiles to procreate?
According to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Yes. I read an article about his view on that once. As far as other authorities, I don't know if everyone agrees on that.
But that's certainly enough of an authority for Chaim to go on and be absolutely correct with his view.
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Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.
And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?
When Reform was 'invented'
But Reform Judaism was created to by Moses Mendelsohn as an attempt to integrate Jews into secular society. He wanted everybody to be frum but just to join the working world and pretend to not be frum on the outside with all the anti-semites. It was his followers that pissed away Judaism and took it to a worse level. His intentions were for partial assimilation ie. on the outside. But he maintained every Jew should still keep the 613. I forgot the follower of his that took it farther.
Once again. It (reform Judaism) was NOT created by Moses Mendelsohn ZT"L. The actual founders of reform judaism were a bunch of losers who tried to latch on to the legacy of Moses Mendelsohn, who was one of the most famous Jews of all time, was extremely pious, ORTHODOX frum Jew, who happened to have beaten Kant in an essay contest and was known even to the German gentiles as one of the greatest geniuses in history. The "Reformists" tried to pretend as if they were following in Mendelsohn's footsteps. But THEY WERE NOT. He kept halacha, and he wrote frum Torah commentaries that could hang with the best of talmudic scholars' even though he was not necessarily the foremost of Talmudists, but he WAS still recognized as a great one in his own right, even if not the best talmudist. But as far as knowledge of Judaism, philosophy and hashkafa, he was second to none. His commentaries were focused in pshat, and his writings very philosophical.
Reform are a bunch of liars and frauds. And it appeared on the scene almost 100 years after Mendelsohn's death!
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And for those people who doubt this, the history is there for people to see and to look up themselves. Start with the Mendelsohn wikipedia page for a brief summary, then try Gil Student's blog, hirhurim.blogspot.com - search for posts on Mendelsohn, he's done a few entries on him, and in the comments section, there is basically everything. In the most recent one, probably from July (last month), one ignorant guy comes in slandering Mendelsohn as "reformer" and he is utterly refuted and knocked down by people bringing the facts of history. A beautiful thing.
But the real beauty is in the "Biur" - Mendelsohn's Torah commentary, that was finished off by one of his students in the later writings. From what I am told, his commentary on Vayikra was a complete defense of chazal in the face of new enlightenment-based philosophies/theories, supposedly basing themselves in science and archaeology, which attacked the traditional belief in the Bible.. In other words, he defended chazal against the forerunners of the documentary hypothesis.... Some reformer, huh?
My rabbi has this work, but I have not learned it yet myself. But shouldn't the evidence for who Mendelsohn was or wasn't be found in his own writings? Not the claims of Reformist charlatans who tried to destroy Judaism?
Quit giving them the credit of being associated in anyway with Mendelsohn's credentials and ideology.
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According to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Yes. I read an article about his view on that once. As far as other authorities, I don't know if everyone agrees on that.
But that's certainly enough of an authority for Chaim to go on and be absolutely correct with his view.
If you believe that Gen 1:28 is a commandment and not just a gift/blessing, this is the only logical view. Would you say that there are any Jews who believe that there are more than seven Noahide Laws?
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And for those people who doubt this, the history is there for people to see and to look up themselves. Start with the Mendelsohn wikipedia page for a brief summary, then try Gil Student's blog, hirhurim.blogspot.com - search for posts on Mendelsohn, he's done a few entries on him, and in the comments section, there is basically everything. In the most recent one, probably from July (last month), one ignorant guy comes in slandering Mendelsohn as "reformer" and he is utterly refuted and knocked down by people bringing the facts of history. A beautiful thing.
But the real beauty is in the "Biur" - Mendelsohn's Torah commentary, that was finished off by one of his students in the later writings. From what I am told, his commentary on Vayikra was a complete defense of chazal in the face of new enlightenment-based philosophies/theories, supposedly basing themselves in science and archaeology, which attacked the traditional belief in the Bible.. In other words, he defended chazal against the forerunners of the documentary hypothesis.... Some reformer, huh?
My rabbi has this work, but I have not learned it yet myself. But shouldn't the evidence for who Mendelsohn was or wasn't be found in his own writings? Not the claims of Reformist charlatans who tried to destroy Judaism?
Quit giving them the credit of being associated in anyway with Mendelsohn's credentials and ideology.
Do you know Gil
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According to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Yes. I read an article about his view on that once. As far as other authorities, I don't know if everyone agrees on that.
But that's certainly enough of an authority for Chaim to go on and be absolutely correct with his view.
If you believe that Gen 1:28 is a commandment and not just a gift/blessing, this is the only logical view. Would you say that there are any Jews who believe that there are more than seven Noahide Laws?
I'm not sure if the Rebbe considered it one of the 7 noahide laws. He may not have. But at the same time holds that it is imperative for non-Jews and Jews alike. I would have to look into it again.
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Do you know Gil
I don't but I'm a big fan of his blog. You know him?
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בס''ד
The commandment "be fruitful and multiply" was given to all mankind and then given again to Noach (Noah). However, it was not included in the 7 commandments that were given to bnei Noach (the righteous Gentiles) when G-d spoke to the entire Jewish people at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).
This situation has created a machloket (difference of opinion) among Chazal (the Rabbinic sages of the Talmud) as to whether bnei Noach are also commanded to have children.
Clearly, it is a blessed deed for righteous Gentiles to have children and to raise them to be righteous. The question is, are righteous Gentiles commanded to do so? And will righteous Gentiles who fail to do so face punishment? Because the Jews are commanded to have children, and Jews who fail to do so do face the prospect of punishment.
According to Tosfot (see Chagigah) and Shealtot (see Midrash Sechel Tov), bnei Noach are indeed commanded to have children. However, bnei Noach are not punished if they do not have children because this is not one of the 7 commandments given at Sinai. There is a blessing for having children, but no punishment for not having children. (Unlike the Jews, who do face the prospect of punishment if they do not have children).
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I think Chaim just gave us the best answer.
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The commandment "be fruitful and multiply" was given to all mankind and then given again to Noach (Noah). However, it was not included in the 7 commandments that were given to bnei Noach (the righteous Gentiles) when G-d spoke to the entire Jewish people at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).
This situation has created a machloket (difference of opinion) among Chazal (the Rabbinic sages of the Talmud) as to whether bnei Noach are also commanded to have children.
Clearly, it is a blessed deed for righteous Gentiles to have children and to raise them to be righteous. The question is, are righteous Gentiles commanded to do so? And will righteous Gentiles who fail to do so face punishment? Because the Jews are commanded to have children, and Jews who fail to do so do face the prospect of punishment.
According to Tosfot (see Chagigah) and Shealtot (see Midrash Sechel Tov), bnei Noach are indeed commanded to have children. However, bnei Noach are not punished if they do not have children because this is not one of the 7 commandments given at Sinai. There is a blessing for having children, but no punishment for not having children. (Unlike the Jews, who do face the prospect of punishment if they do not have children).
Two questions Chaim:
1: I do not at all intend to be disrespectful to the great Torah Sages (zt"l), but is it at all possible that this was left out of the Noahide Laws in error?
2: How can procreation be commanded for all human beings and yet righteous Gentiles are not punished for not procreating? Wouldn't that mean that it is not a commandment?
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Chaim,
Thank you so much for your well researched response. As usual with Jewish laws there are opinions both ways. It is true that if you ask Two Jews you will get Three opinions.
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Well, whatever, it's a good thing, you righteous gentiles, get busy making babies. ;D
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The commandment "be fruitful and multiply" was given to all mankind and then given again to Noach (Noah). However, it was not included in the 7 commandments that were given to bnei Noach (the righteous Gentiles) when G-d spoke to the entire Jewish people at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).
This situation has created a machloket (difference of opinion) among Chazal (the Rabbinic sages of the Talmud) as to whether bnei Noach are also commanded to have children.
Clearly, it is a blessed deed for righteous Gentiles to have children and to raise them to be righteous. The question is, are righteous Gentiles commanded to do so? And will righteous Gentiles who fail to do so face punishment? Because the Jews are commanded to have children, and Jews who fail to do so do face the prospect of punishment.
According to Tosfot (see Chagigah) and Shealtot (see Midrash Sechel Tov), bnei Noach are indeed commanded to have children. However, bnei Noach are not punished if they do not have children because this is not one of the 7 commandments given at Sinai. There is a blessing for having children, but no punishment for not having children. (Unlike the Jews, who do face the prospect of punishment if they do not have children).
Two questions Chaim:
1: I do not at all intend to be disrespectful to the great Torah Sages (zt"l), but is it at all possible that this was left out of the Noahide Laws in error?
2: How can procreation be commanded for all human beings and yet righteous Gentiles are not punished for not procreating? Wouldn't that mean that it is not a commandment?
בס''ד
1. The Noahide laws cannot have any errors. The rabbis did not create the Noahide laws. The Noahide laws were given by G-d Himself at Mount Sinai.
2. Sometimes, there are commandments which bring blessings if someone does them, but no punishment if someone doesn't do them. This is because of G-d's great mercy.
For example, there have been times in history when evil people have ordered righteous Gentiles to bow before idols. These wicked people threatened to murder the righteous Gentiles unless they bow before the idols. Are the righteous Gentiles allowed to bow in order to save their lives? According to Chazal (the Rabbinic sages of the Talmud), the righteous Gentiles are permitted to bow to save their lives. The Biblical source for this Rabbinic ruling comes from the story of Naaman, a righteous Gentile who asked the Jewish prophet Elisha if he would be permitted to bow before idols when his king orders him to do so:
"In this thing will the L-rd pardon thy servant, that when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand, and I myself bow in the house of Rimmon...will the L-rd pardon thy servant in this thing?" (Kings II, 5:18).
Elisha answers Naaman, "Go in peace."
So G-d does not punish the righteous Gentiles for saving their lives even though not worshipping idols is one of the 7 Torah commandments imposed upon the Gentiles.
The Jews, on the other hand, are commanded to die al kiddush hashem (sanctifying G-d's name) if they are ordered to bow before idols or worship idols. Many Jewish men, women and children throughout history willingly gave their lives and were brutally tortured to death rather than bow before idols.
Why the much stricter commandment for the Jews? Because the Jews carry G-d's name, He is the G-d of Israel, and for the Jews to bow before idols is ultimate desecration of G-d's name.
But G-d, in His mercy, does not demand that His righteous Gentile servants give up their lives in a situation like that. Of course, if their lives are not threatened, then righteous Gentiles are not allowed to bow before idols.
The same rule of mercy toward the righteous Gentiles applies in the case of having children. Many times in history, righteous Gentiles were forced to live in the cruelest and most barbaric societies. Should these righteous Gentiles be punished if they choose not to bring children into the world where their children may be subjected to murder, torture, rape, mutiliation? For example, should righteous Gentiles who live in Muslim countries be forced to have children? Should righteous Gentiles who decide not to have children in Muslim countries be punished for that decision?
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Interesting point..
However, Gd told all living things to be fruitful and multiply..that has to include righteous gentiles also...
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1. The Noahide laws cannot have any errors. The rabbis did not create the Noahide laws. The Noahide laws were given by G-d Himself at Mount Sinai.
No, what I meant was is it at all conceivable that the Ravs mistakenly ommitted including the command to increase in number within the Noahide Laws.
The Jews, on the other hand, are commanded to die al kiddush hashem (sanctifying G-d's name) if they are ordered to bow before idols or worship idols. Many Jewish men, women and children throughout history willingly gave their lives and were brutally tortured to death rather than bow before idols.
This is the same as what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that we must be willing to die rather than (even pretend to) serve an idol (or to deny the name of the real G-d). Millions of Christian martyrs throughout history have chosen torturous deaths over denying the name of G-d as well.
Many times in history, righteous Gentiles were forced to live in the cruelest and most barbaric societies. Should these righteous Gentiles be punished if they choose not to bring children into the world where their children may be subjected to murder, torture, rape, mutiliation? For example, should righteous Gentiles who live in Muslim countries be forced to have children? Should righteous Gentiles who decide not to have children in Muslim countries be punished for that decision?
So, in other words, Gentiles who are not in these extreme circumstances will be punished if they do not multiply?
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Christians are taught to choose martyrdom over denying our religion.
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1. The Noahide laws cannot have any errors. The rabbis did not create the Noahide laws. The Noahide laws were given by G-d Himself at Mount Sinai.
No, what I meant was is it at all conceivable that the Ravs mistakenly ommitted including the command to increase in number within the Noahide Laws.
The Jews, on the other hand, are commanded to die al kiddush hashem (sanctifying G-d's name) if they are ordered to bow before idols or worship idols. Many Jewish men, women and children throughout history willingly gave their lives and were brutally tortured to death rather than bow before idols.
This is the same as what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that we must be willing to die rather than (even pretend to) serve an idol (or to deny the name of the real G-d). Millions of Christian martyrs throughout history have chosen torturous deaths over denying the name of G-d as well.
Many times in history, righteous Gentiles were forced to live in the cruelest and most barbaric societies. Should these righteous Gentiles be punished if they choose not to bring children into the world where their children may be subjected to murder, torture, rape, mutiliation? For example, should righteous Gentiles who live in Muslim countries be forced to have children? Should righteous Gentiles who decide not to have children in Muslim countries be punished for that decision?
So, in other words, Gentiles who are not in these extreme circumstances will be punished if they do not multiply?
More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.
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More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.
what does this have to do with the topic at hand?
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More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.
what does this have to do with the topic at hand?
I will leave it at this... I am a bit upset about thinking about the Passion movie and may say something without thinking properly.
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Muman, nobody on JTF--at least no significant members--supports the fag Mel Gibson or his stupid Nazi movie. I realize you are angry but please remember that.
As for the NT church fathers--99% of them were Jewish and many continued to obey the 613. I know that according to Judaism they were heretics, and do not want to convert anybody of otherwise, but the last thing that they wanted to do was promote an ancient Shoah. As members of the Chosen Nation, they viewed themselves as being the vanguard of the new faith.
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More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.
what does this have to do with the topic at hand?
I will leave it at this... I am a bit upset about thinking about the Passion movie and may say something without thinking properly.
Anyone who starts hating Jews because they saw a poorly done artsy movie has to be a total moron. Unfortunately there are a lot of morons out there, so I can see your concern.
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Rubystars is correct. All of these so-called Christian anti-Semites throughout history (and yes, we know full well that there were tens of millions of them, and that they made up the vast majority of the population of the so-called Christian world) already hated Jews for decidedly un-theological reasons (i.e. they were jealous and resentful of them, hated the fact that they stood for morality, etc.).
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Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.
And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?
When Reform was 'invented'
But Reform Judaism was created to by Moses Mendelsohn as an attempt to integrate Jews into secular society. He wanted everybody to be frum but just to join the working world and pretend to not be frum on the outside with all the anti-semites. It was his followers that pissed away Judaism and took it to a worse level. His intentions were for partial assimilation ie. on the outside. But he maintained every Jew should still keep the 613. I forgot the follower of his that took it farther.
Once again. It (reform Judaism) was NOT created by Moses Mendelsohn ZT"L. The actual founders of reform judaism were a bunch of losers who tried to latch on to the legacy of Moses Mendelsohn, who was one of the most famous Jews of all time, was extremely pious, ORTHODOX frum Jew, who happened to have beaten Kant in an essay contest and was known even to the German gentiles as one of the greatest geniuses in history. The "Reformists" tried to pretend as if they were following in Mendelsohn's footsteps. But THEY WERE NOT. He kept halacha, and he wrote frum Torah commentaries that could hang with the best of talmudic scholars' even though he was not necessarily the foremost of Talmudists, but he WAS still recognized as a great one in his own right, even if not the best talmudist. But as far as knowledge of Judaism, philosophy and hashkafa, he was second to none. His commentaries were focused in pshat, and his writings very philosophical.
Reform are a bunch of liars and frauds. And it appeared on the scene almost 100 years after Mendelsohn's death!
Yes that was the point I was trying to make. But there was a single figure that was responsible and I forgot his name. I had to write a paper in Grade 12 Jewish History with the topic "Was Mendelsohn the father of Reform?" I concluded no he wasn't and have reasons why that other guy was responsible for it.
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Let's bring this convo back to procreation...
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Chaim's was a great answer. Gentiles should procreate but don't get punished if they don't. When Jews enter the heavenly court after they die they are asked if they tried to have children. I don't think Gentiles are asked this.
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Yeah, but I had a final question--will Gentiles who could have procreated, but refused to, be judged. I want to see what Chaim thinks on that.
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Yeah, but I had a final question--will Gentiles who could have procreated, but refused to, be judged. I want to see what Chaim thinks on that.
I'd have to put my $ on no. But I think Hashem understands if Gentiles have reasons. Bones, it is important for you to know that if a child sees his father and his rebbe (man who teaches him Torah) both struggling with heavy loads, the child has to help the rebbe first THEN the father. Why? Because the father brings the child into this world, but the rebbe, with teaching Torah, send the child into the next world. Similarly, you must save your rebbe's life over your father's. If the father teaches you Torah then the rule applies to saving the father first.
Also, in the Torah, Hashem calls Aaron's sons "Aaron's and Moses's son". Why? Because Moses taught them Torah and therefore was a father to them. So a Jewish man must not only have children but there are several things he is required to do for his son. The gemara or Mishna states 1)Teach son a trade 2)Teach son to swim 3)Teach son Torah 4) Marry son off. There might be 1 or 2 more.
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Are you talking about Martin Luther, of the Protestant Reformation that was a vicious anti-Semite (and a geocentrist, lol).
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More Jews died at the hands of Christians than Christians dying at the hands of Jews... More Jews died at the hands of Christians than have died at the hands of muslimes. Also Christian idea of what the 'name of G-d' is is very, very different than the Jewish idea of Hashem.
what does this have to do with the topic at hand?
I will leave it at this... I am a bit upset about thinking about the Passion movie and may say something without thinking properly.
Wrong thread, dude.
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Well, whatever, it's a good thing, you righteous gentiles, get busy making babies. ;D
Amen.
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Are you talking about Martin Luther, of the Protestant Reformation that was a vicious anti-Semite (and a geocentrist, lol).
Don't get me started on him.
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Yeah, but I had a final question--will Gentiles who could have procreated, but refused to, be judged. I want to see what Chaim thinks on that.
The Rabbis of the Talmud do not believe that righteous gentiles will be punished if they decide not to have children. The righteous gentiles will be blessed if they do have children, but will not be punished if they do not.
I'll try to explain this with an analogy:
There are elite fighting units in the Israeli army. All of the soldiers in the units are volunteers, because the training is so vigorous and harsh, and because these units are placed in the most dangerous combat situations. If someone volunteers for these units, they are "blessed" by Israeli society as heroes and the finest soldiers in the military. But if someone does not volunteer, no one blames them or punishes them or condemns them. In other words, you get blessed if you volunteer, but you don't get scorned if you don't.
The righteous gentiles who have children and raise them properly will be blessed and rewarded. But those who don't will not be punished.
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I sort of understand what you are getting at from my Christian perspective. The Apostle Paul in the New Testament states that it is ideal to remain permanently single, but that it is not wrong to marry. Is that anything like what you mean here?
Are there any rabbinic sources that teach that it is absolutely mandatory for all human beings to have children (as much as they are able)?
Finally, do we know for a fact that Naaman is in heaven?