JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Irish Zionist on August 19, 2009, 08:23:49 PM
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I would like to hear the Jewish view on the film
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Suffice it to say that JTF is not a fan of Mel Gibson.
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Terrible... Antisemitic... Feeds on stereotypical antisemitic idea that Jews were guilty of deicide...
I boycotted this movie and asked everyone I know to do so...
What do you think Jews would think about this garbage?
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never bothered to watch certainly wouldn't give a penny to that scum.
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Terrible... Antisemitic... Feeds on stereotypical antisemitic idea that Jews were guilty of deicide...
I boycotted this movie and asked everyone I know to do so...
What do you think Jews would think about this garbage?
Well it certainly portrayed the Jews as wicked priests that asked the Romans to Kill Jesus, and made Herod out to be a fag.
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Never watched it..
I might just to see what the fuzz is all about
but I wont in anyway pay for it
so don't worry. :laugh: :laugh:
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Terrible... Antisemitic... Feeds on stereotypical antisemitic idea that Jews were guilty of deicide...
I boycotted this movie and asked everyone I know to do so...
What do you think Jews would think about this garbage?
Well it certainly portrayed the Jews as wicked priests that asked the Romans to Kill Jesus, and made Herod out to be a fag.
Why would any Jewish person want to watch such BS? Deicide is a serious reason for much of the barbarism of Christianity. The Inquisition and the Pogroms of Europe were inspired by the false claim that Jews killed the christian G-d. The lunacy of such a claim is immense... There is no way that anyone can kill G-d... Those christians who believe this are guilty of idol worship and should be put to death themselves..
This is one reason the NT is one of the greatest sources of antisemitism.
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My sister's boyfriend brought it over to watch because he had a DVD of it, and I watched it with him. I'm not really that familiar with Jewish stereotypes because I wasn't raised around anti-Semites. My family was always pro-Israel, so I couldn't really pick up on the stereotypes as well as someone from a Jewish background could or someone from an anti-Semitic background could. I will say I found it to be way too "artsy" and not really as good of a film as people made it out to be.
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http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/passion-history-who-killed-jesus/
Mel Gibson’s film fits comfortably within the history of Christian anti-Semitism.
Mel Gibson’s film, “The Passion of Christ,” has already stirred a lot of passions and heated debate. What’s all the fuss about? After all, isn’t it just a movie and we all know the ending already? Clearly there are much bigger issues at stake. By examining the implications of the story of the Passion, we can begin to understand why so many are justifiably apprehensive about the impact this movie might have.
THE ROOTS OF CHRISTIAN ANTI-SEMITISM
The Passion remains the central event of Christianity and the role of the Jews in this story serves as the foundation of the early Christian view of Judaism and the Jews.
Here is a brief overview of the Jewish role in the Passion story as portrayed in the Gospel. The corrupt priesthood, feeling threatened by Jesus’ popularity, conspire against him and have him arrested by the Romans. A Jewish mob further conspires to keep him imprisoned and ensure his torture and crucifixion. As he is led to his death, he is further abused by a Jewish mob.
The Jewish role in the story is overwhelmingly negative and culminates in the ultimate crime: deicide—the murder of G-d. The Gospel is uniformly hostile toward the Jews, while making the Roman procurator, Pontius Pilate, almost completely guiltless. After being “forced” by the Jewish mob to sentence Jesus to death, Pilate symbolically washes his hands and pronounces: “I am not responsible for the death of this man! This is your doing. The whole crowd [the Jews] answered back: Let his blood be on our heads and the heads of our children.” (Matthew 27:24-25)
Paul, the most important personality in the history of the church, makes a special point of blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus: ”[the Jews] killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and persecuted us. How displeasing they are to G-d! How hostile they are to all men. They even tried to stop us from preaching to the Gentiles…This is the last full measure of the sins they have always committed. And now G-d’s wrath has at last fallen upon them.” (Thessalonians 1,2)
Probably the most damning of all accusations appears in John 8:44: “You are the children of your father, the Devil, and you want to follow your father’s desires. From the very beginning he was a murderer.”
The negative role that the Jew plays in the Passion served to create a solid foundation on which later Christian anti-Semitism would be built.
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Muman, please... cool it. All of Christianity is not responsible for Mel Gibson's Nazism, and nor is the NT. If you want to discuss this offline, it is fine, but please be a little more respectful on here.
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Muman, please... cool it. All of Christianity is not responsible for Mel Gibson's Nazism, and nor is the NT. If you want to discuss this offline, it is fine, but please be a little more respectful on here.
Do you deny that Christianity is one of the major sources of historical antisemitism? I have several books and sources which I can cite which explain this phenomenon.
I am incensed at this movie and believe that it was a major setback for Jewish/Christian relations...
I am sorry if my opinion offends anyone.. It is not my intention.. But from a Jewish perspective The Passion is drek...
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never bothered to watch certainly wouldn't give a penny to that scum.
Same here.
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We Jews, (especially us JTF Jews), are not exactly Mel's target audience.
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Do you deny that Christianity is one of the major sources of historical antisemitism? I have several books and sources which I can cite which explain this phenomenon.
I believe that savage, barbarous peoples used Christianity as a convenient excuse to perpetuate Jew-hatred they already had. Christianity is a Judeocentric faith. None of the biblical fathers of Christianity promoted the murder of Jews.
I am incensed at this movie and believe that it was a major setback for Jewish/Christian relations...
Nobody on JTF is defending that rotten movie or its moronic Nazi creator.
I am sorry if my opinion offends anyone.. It is not my intention.. But from a Jewish perspective The Passion is drek...
Do you really think JTF members would support this film?
This thread should never have been started to begin with, for sure, but still...
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Jesus was criticizing a very specific group of people who he felt were hypocritical. He wasn't condemning Jewish people as a whole. I will not get into any more detail than that about it because I don't really think this debate belongs on a Jewish forum and I want to be respectful of the Jewish people here. It's true that evil people under the umbrella of Christianity used that and other verses to attempt to justify their evil anti-Semitic actions and beliefs.
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Jesus was criticizing a very specific group of people who he felt were hypocritical. He wasn't condemning Jewish people as a whole. I will not get into any more detail than that about it because I don't really think this debate belongs on a Jewish forum and I want to be respectful of the Jewish people here. It's true that evil people under the umbrella of Christianity used that and other verses to attempt to justify their evil anti-Semitic actions and beliefs.
Agreed.
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Jesus was criticizing a very specific group of people who he felt were hypocritical. He wasn't condemning Jewish people as a whole. I will not get into any more detail than that about it because I don't really think this debate belongs on a Jewish forum and I want to be respectful of the Jewish people here. It's true that evil people under the umbrella of Christianity used that and other versos to attempt to justify their evil anti-Semitic actions and beliefs.
I still don't see how any christian can over look what G-d said in genesis 12:3
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Why would any Jewish person want to watch such BS? Deicide is a serious reason for much of the barbarism of Christianity. The Inquisition and the Pogroms of Europe were inspired by the false claim that Jews killed the christian G-d. The lunacy of such a claim is immense... There is no way that anyone can kill G-d... Those christians who believe this are guilty of idol worship and should be put to death themselves..
This is one reason the NT is one of the greatest sources of antisemitism.
The Romans temporarily killed Jesus' body which then, according to Christian belief, he returned to and lived in again. So really I don't understand the centuries of complete and total morons who accused Jews of "deicide", especially when at no time was G-d the Father (which I think is equivalent to Hashem), was ever said to die.
Your post does concern me though. Do you think that all Christians should be put to death if Noahide laws were put into place, because we're "idol worshippers", or would you tolerate us as long as we didn't intend to harm Jews or Noahides?
Jesus was criticizing a very specific group of people who he felt were hypocritical. He wasn't condemning Jewish people as a whole. I will not get into any more detail than that about it because I don't really think this debate belongs on a Jewish forum and I want to be respectful of the Jewish people here. It's true that evil people under the umbrella of Christianity used that and other versos to attempt to justify their evil anti-Semitic actions and beliefs.
I still don't see how any christian can over look what G-d said in genesis 12:3
I agree, that is VERY important!
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Ok, I agree with everything, but I just want to say that from a movie perspective, the violence was well done.
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Jesus was criticizing a very specific group of people who he felt were hypocritical. He wasn't condemning Jewish people as a whole. I will not get into any more detail than that about it because I don't really think this debate belongs on a Jewish forum and I want to be respectful of the Jewish people here. It's true that evil people under the umbrella of Christianity used that and other verses to attempt to justify their evil anti-Semitic actions and beliefs.
Agreed.
Thanks Bones :) You always make really great posts on basic Christian doctrine too which I almost always have agreed with.
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especially when at no time was G-d the Father (which I think is equivalent to Hashem), was ever said to die.
Actually Rubystars, as you probably already know, in Christian theology the Son never really died either--just his temporary human form. As you know, in Christianity the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three uncreated, eternal natures of the same G-d. The best analogy, Ruby, for the Trinity is the human mind--the human mind has a rational, emotional, and philosophical side all at the same time, without humans being schizophrenic.
Your post does concern me though. Do you think that all Christians should be put to death if Noahide laws were put into place, because we're "idol worshippers", or would you tolerate us as long as we didn't intend to harm Jews or Noahides?
If I understand it correctly the Trinity is idolatry for Jews, but not necessarily Gentiles because it is still one G-d.
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That's correct Bones, we only believe in one God.
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Jesus was criticizing a very specific group of people who he felt were hypocritical. He wasn't condemning Jewish people as a whole. I will not get into any more detail than that about it because I don't really think this debate belongs on a Jewish forum and I want to be respectful of the Jewish people here. It's true that evil people under the umbrella of Christianity used that and other verses to attempt to justify their evil anti-Semitic actions and beliefs.
AMEN to that Ruby, thanks for posting this. I don't know ANY Christians who thought of it as an anti-semitic film, that's not why we like it, that's not why we think it was one of the greatest films Christendom has ever made. In fact, I have NEVER known an anti-semitic Christian. Those that are belong to some stupid sect or something, and the Christians I know would set them straight if they EVER heard that trash.
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
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Jesus was criticizing a very specific group of people who he felt were hypocritical. He wasn't condemning Jewish people as a whole. I will not get into any more detail than that about it because I don't really think this debate belongs on a Jewish forum and I want to be respectful of the Jewish people here. It's true that evil people under the umbrella of Christianity used that and other verses to attempt to justify their evil anti-Semitic actions and beliefs.
AMEN to that Ruby, thanks for posting this. I don't know ANY Christians who thought of it as an anti-semitic film, that's not why we like it, that's not why we think it was one of the greatest films Christendom has ever made. In fact, I have NEVER known an anti-semitic Christian. Those that are belong to some stupid sect or something, and the Christians I know would set them straight if they EVER heard that trash.
The film probably was intended to be anti-Semitic, considering the director's very clear anti-Semitic leanings. Also the Jewish people who saw it claimed that it showcased some typical Jewish stereotypes. I'm going to take their word for it on that one even though I wasn't able to recognize them because I have not been raised to recognize such things. So I think the film probably was anti-Semitic.
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The movie said that the Romans killed him, so why are the Jews blamed for it?
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
Most do. Some try to say she was a "young woman", but I think that many things in the story support the idea she was a virgin even if she was described only as a young woman. I personally believe that Mary was a virgin and so do most other Christians.
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
All religious Christians do believe Jesus was conceived to a virgin girl named Mary, yes, but not all Christians venerate or pray to Mary.
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
Most do. Some try to say she was a "young woman", but I think that many things in the story support the idea she was a virgin even if she was described only as a young woman. I personally believe that Mary was a virgin and so do most other Christians.
And he had to die for sins of the future generations?
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He who, Jesus?
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Chaim has said in a past Ask JTF show that he believed Mel Gibson made that movie just to cause more anti-semitism. Look what has gone on with Mel since he made that film. He got pulled over for drunk driving, and went on a rant against Jews and how we're supposedly responsible for all the problems in this world. He also insulted one of the female police officers by calling her sugar t--s. Not suprising, being that his father Hutton Gibson is a Holocaust denier. In vino veritas.
When Mel was asked by interviewer Diane Sawyer about who really killed Jesus, he said "we all did." But his anti-semitic rant totally belies that.
And more recently, he cheated on his wife, and mother of his seven children with some Russian bimbo that he knocked up. His long suffering wife finally gave him the boot.
So like I wrote earlier, us JTF Jews are no fans of Mel, and we have no interest in his movie.
Anyway, I'll thank everyone to keep this all cordial. While we're not happy with what the Church has done in the past, or the anti-semitic actions of those calling themselves Christians, we do love our wonderful Christian members.
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
Most do. Some try to say she was a "young woman", but I think that many things in the story support the idea she was a virgin even if she was described only as a young woman. I personally believe that Mary was a virgin and so do most other Christians.
The actual translation of the word from hebrew is 'young woman' which was mistranslated by the Greek translation as virgin...
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The movie said that the Romans killed him, so why are the Jews blamed for it?
Anti-Semites don't know how to use logic.
It's like this:
Jews help blacks achieve greater freedoms in society, Blacks hate Jews
Arabs in Israel get free electricity, medical help, food aid, etc. and they hate Jews
Romans crucify Jesus, anti-Semites blame Jews for it, even if those very same anti-Semites were sometimes Roman themselves.
Jews prosper in Germany and help it to be a successful country, Germans hated Jews.
Jews are a light to the world and a blessing and bring good things to the nations, but the nations still hate them. It goes completely against all logic. It's an absolutely evil, crazy, stupid hatred.
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The actual translation of the word from hebrew is 'young woman' which was mistranslated by the Greek translation as virgin...
Mary was a virgin and a young woman (est. age 13-16).
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The movie said that the Romans killed him, so why are the Jews blamed for it?
Anti-Semites don't know how to use logic.
It's like this:
Jews help blacks achieve greater freedoms in society, Blacks hate Jews
Arabs in Israel get free electricity, medical help, food aid, etc. and they hate Jews
Romans crucify Jesus, anti-Semites blame Jews for it, even if those very same anti-Semites were sometimes Roman themselves.
Jews prosper in Germany and help it to be a successful country, Germans hated Jews.
Jews are a light to the world and a blessing and bring good things to the nations, but the nations still hate them. It goes completely against all logic. It's an absolutely evil, crazy, stupid hatred.
Have you ever wanted to be Jewish?
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
Most do. Some try to say she was a "young woman", but I think that many things in the story support the idea she was a virgin even if she was described only as a young woman. I personally believe that Mary was a virgin and so do most other Christians.
The actual translation of the word from hebrew is 'young woman' which was mistranslated by the Greek translation as virgin...
I'm aware of that but I think in context the story still shows that she would have been a virgin. Thanks for pointing that out though because people might not have known what I was referring to otherwise.
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You guys, we're going to have to agree to disagree on theology here. Christians believes in the concept of a trinity. Jews don't. I think we need to leave it at that.
If anyone has questions, I recommend sending each other private messages.
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
Most do. Some try to say she was a "young woman", but I think that many things in the story support the idea she was a virgin even if she was described only as a young woman. I personally believe that Mary was a virgin and so do most other Christians.
And he had to die for sins of the future generations?
I'd like to talk about this, but that's getting dangerously close to preaching if I get into it, so I hope you understand if I don't talk about that particular topic.
Have you ever wanted to be Jewish?
No, but I have always respected the Jewish people.
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Yes,
Let us not stray into areas which may cause us a lot of stress...
These issues can be discussed later... It is not wise to discuss these issues in an emotional state {as I obviously am in}..
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I think Rubystars' last post here serves as a fitting conclusion to this thread. In closing, the message here is that Mel Gibson and his movie are bad, bad, bad.
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
Most do. Some try to say she was a "young woman", but I think that many things in the story support the idea she was a virgin even if she was described only as a young woman. I personally believe that Mary was a virgin and so do most other Christians.
And he had to die for sins of the future generations?
I'd like to talk about this, but that's getting dangerously close to preaching if I get into it, so I hope you understand if I don't talk about that particular topic.
Have you ever wanted to be Jewish?
No, but I have always respected the Jewish people.
I'm just curious. Not everyday I can ask a Christian these questions. I just want to know what Christians believe. I grew up Orthodox and even when I left it for a few years, I still hung out with only Jews so I never really spoke to any Goyim about this stuff or anything. I never really cared, either, but now I feel that it doesn't to hurt to find the depths of the story.
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Do ALL Christians believe in the virgin Mary story?
Most do. Some try to say she was a "young woman", but I think that many things in the story support the idea she was a virgin even if she was described only as a young woman. I personally believe that Mary was a virgin and so do most other Christians.
And he had to die for sins of the future generations?
I'd like to talk about this, but that's getting dangerously close to preaching if I get into it, so I hope you understand if I don't talk about that particular topic.
Have you ever wanted to be Jewish?
No, but I have always respected the Jewish people.
I'm just curious. Not everyday I can ask a Christian these questions. I just want to know what Christians believe. I grew up Orthodox and even when I left it for a few years, I still hung out with only Jews so I never really spoke to any Goyim about this stuff or anything. I never really cared, either, but now I feel that it doesn't to hurt to find the depths of the story.
Ok , I'm done. :)
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Yes,
Let us not stray into areas which may cause us a lot of stress...
These issues can be discussed later... It is not wise to discuss these issues in an emotional state {as I obviously am in}..
Have a nice cup of herbal tea (or some wine) and chill out, listen to some nice music, or play a computer game, and pet your kitty. :)
Then hopefully you'll feel better.
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I'm just curious. Not everyday I can ask a Christian these questions. I just want to know what Christians believe. I grew up Orthodox and even when I left it for a few years, I still hung out with only Jews so I never really spoke to any Goyim about this stuff or anything. I never really cared, either, but now I feel that it doesn't to hurt to find the depths of the story.
I always enjoy learning more about other religions and I think I've learned a lot just by reading this board. There's always more that I pick up on though and I think it enriches people to be more aware of what other people believe, even if they don't believe it themselves.
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I would like to hear the Jewish view on the film
Terrible but very profitable for ol-Mel.
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This might help you cool off, I find it funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl8wTgpQtqs&feature=related
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I saw the film out of curiosity, and it was an orgy of victimization. I can't stand that type of thing. The crowd, a modern western bunch brought up on post-enlightenment christian morality which 'deifies' or at least glorifies the "underdog" and victim, of course ate it up. I saw tears rolling down all over the theater. I was chomping away at the popcorn, but didn't find the plot very interesting at all.... I wasn't taken in by the film's highly emotional victim deification/worship.
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The movie said that the Romans killed him, so why are the Jews blamed for it?
No, you had these evil looking snickering Jews in the background egging on the Romans and basically begging them to kill him for them. They looked like they were straight out of a nazi cartoon and onto the film strip. These are supposedly the "Pharisees" (Rabbis) depicted in gospels as supposedly what Jesus fought against. But in reality.... without getting into it too much, Jesus most likely was himself a pharisee... went off the derech yes, but he supports Torah/rabbinic law unlike paul. Paul had a more sadducee approach where he felt he could abolish the law (although he took it a step further and tried to abolish Torah law itself... but in reality the Saducees would have done this if they could have, they were not sincere).
Paul was also different in marketing to non Jews, or did that happen later after paul's time? I know at the beginning the first christians were actually jews who joined up in a breakaway sect, but later it expanded to include and seek out nonJews and was very quickly predominantly nonJews if not completely.
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Jesus most likely was himself a pharisee
Yes, true.
but he supports Torah/rabbinic law unlike paul. Paul had a more sadducee approach where he felt he could abolish the law
Not exactly true, Paul taught that obedience to Torah was not required for salvation for Christians. He also remained a Pharisee until his death.
Paul was also different in marketing to non Jews
Correct, he was apostle to the Gentiles.
I know at the beginning the first christians were actually jews who joined up in a breakaway sect
Yes.
very quickly predominantly nonJews if not completely.
This happened around the time of the sacking of Jerusalem. This is where "Christian" anti-Semitism began.
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Mel Gibson is a typical "religious" Nazi - a drunkard, an adulterer, a liar and a cheat who subconsciously hates G-d for making him feel guilty about his atrocious behavior. Gibson can't admit to himself that he hates G-d, so he embraces a "religion" that attacks G-d's people. His Nazi anti-Semitism is his outlet for his hatred of G-d's laws and morals. Gibson tries to scapegoat and blame the Jews for his own immorality, disloyalty and wickedness.
Gibson's films are an abomination. I predict that he will die a miserable death. And then he will join all of history's other "religious" Jew-haters in the fires of hell - the Crusaders who cut babies out of pregnant Jewish women's stomachs, the Inquisitionists who burned Jewish children alive on the stake calling them "Christ killers", the priests and nuns who kidnapped thousands of Jewish children from their parents to baptize them and raise them as Christians, the pogromists who set fire to the beards of rabbis while singing "Christ We Adore Thee", until the climax was reached with the ovens and the gas chambers of the holocaust where church services were held in Auschwitz every Sunday for the Nazi death camp guards who were murdering millions under a sign at the Auschwitz chapel which said "Our Fuhrer Adolf Hitler is Jesus' messenger to the Jews".
This might give our members some idea as to why Jews did not like Gibson's film.
I think this is a good place to close this thread.