JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: galileerat on August 30, 2009, 03:00:25 PM
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The Lubavitcher Rebbe warned again and again in the 80s that accepting the Ethiopians to Israel en masse would in the future give Israel sore cause to regret!
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251145152672&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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The Lubavitcher Rebbe warned again and again in the 80s that accepting the Ethiopians to Israel en masse would in the future give Israel sore cause to regret!
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251145152672&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
What do you think about it? Aren't they Jews?
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R.Moshe Feinstein ruled that the Falashas had the status of "sofek yehudim", who required geirus l'kula. Most refused to undergo this.
All authorities hold that the Falash Mura are complete goyim who require geirus l'chumra. Most undergo this.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe, who was not a posek, warned in 1984 that the Ethiopians should be allowed in to Israel only on an individual basis, with conversion taking place outside of Israel, not en masse. Leftists like Yossi Sarid want to let in 1 million. Even R.Ovadiya Yosef wants to bring in 250,000 Ethiopic blacks, as he believes that that will boost Shas' voter base!
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what is posek? What are the other terms that you used?
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R.Moshe Feinstein ruled that the Falashas had the status of "sofek yehudim", who required geirus l'kula. Most refused to undergo this.
Proof/source?
My understanding was that Ethiopians did do this upon arrival. The vast majority of them.
Also why do you say Lubavitcher rebbe was "not a posek." ? I doubt any Lubavitchers feel this way.
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The Lubavitcher Rebbe, who was not a posek
Says the religious Jew-bashing troll Mitflezet.
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I can't believe you say The Lubavitcher Rebbe was not a posek. He was an admor, and to his chasidim, he was the posek of highest authority.
what is posek? What are the other terms that you used?
פוסק הלכה Posek Halacha is a rabbi who can make a halachic based ruling on previously undetermined issues. It is not an official title but naturally the most important and hardest to determine questions are determined by rabbis of highest regard.
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My friend teaches a lot of Ethiopians in Israel. She says it is common to see a cross tatooed on their forehead.
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My friend teaches a lot of Ethiopians in Israel. She says it is common to see a cross tatooed on their forehead.
These are the Falash Mura and gentile free riders.
The Falashim, the real Jews from Ethiopia, are good and polite Jews who integrate much better in society than the other Ethiopians who are basically gentiles who may have a Jewish ancestor who had converted to christianity a hundred years ago or more, like millions of people in Europe for example. They are complete goyim.
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The Lubavitcher Rebbe, like most Chassidic Rebbes, himself refused the title of a posek ie he refused to issue definitive Halachic rulings. He left that to the Dayanim of the Chabad Beis Din, who followed his cue.
The wave of Falasha aliya in 1985 was all set to be OK, with quick mikva immersion and hatofas dam at Ben Gurion airport.
But anti-Torah subversive leftist agitators stirred up the Ethiopians to near riot, claiming that they were already full Jews and that it was an "insult" for them to immerse and be pricked for blood.
The cowardly R.Ovadiya Yosef was bribed to back down, and thus most "sofek yehudi" Falashas were never properly megayer, leaving a doubt on their Jewishness to this day, amongst most Haredim at least.
Ironically, the latest wave of completely gentile Falash Mura end up being completely Jewish, as they do undergo full conversion!
There are c150,000 Ethiopian blacks in Israel, together with another c100,000 negroidal Black Hebrews, Bedouins, Sudanese, Eritreans, Nigerians etc.
Most make useful guards, factory workers, agricultural workers, foot soldiers etc.
Some even study Torah and become tzaddikim. Some become reshoyim: some of the worst soldiers and Yassamniks during the 2005 Gaza Deportation were Blacks.
If the total number of Hamitics exceeds 300,000, then Israel will start to become "schvartzefied", with all that that entails!
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Do you even live in Israel ? I don't dispute some of your claims but your hatred to anything with dark skin is too obvious.
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The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them. If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
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There are c150,000 Ethiopian blacks in Israel, together with another c100,000 negroidal Black Hebrews, Bedouins, Sudanese, Eritreans, Nigerians etc.
250 thousand in a small country like Israel - that's a pretty large percentage. If we add the Arabs, the demographics are worrying.
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The Lubavitcher Rebbe, like most Chassidic Rebbes, himself refused the title of a posek ie he refused to issue definitive Halachic rulings. He left that to the Dayanim of the Chabad Beis Din, who followed his cue.
Lol, enough of the smoke and mirrors...
Plenty of humble rabbis refuse titles and recognitions. That does not mean some guy with a trashy screenname can come along and type into forums that 'so-and-so was not an authority.'
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The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them. If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
What is kloloh?
How will they stop existing in the Messianic age?
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The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them. If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
What is kloloh?
How will they stop existing in the Messianic age?
It means CURSED!
Remember the Curse of Noach on the descendents of Ham?
It was still in effect during the time of Avraham Avinu, since Eliezer his slave was a descendant of Ham, and Avraham would not allow Yitzak to marry the daughter of Eliezer because of the curse...
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Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
LOL, and let me guess, you're "racialist" right?
The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them.
So?
If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
Hmmm, where do you pull this from? tafkid?
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
Not meant to be? Or not allowed for a certain period of time and circumstance? And is it G-d who did it to them? Or are we supposed to perpetuate it with all our power because you think God isn't powerful enough to do it Himself? Usually a "curse" is not in the hands of man, and it may run it's course... Are you against that? Can God end his curses just as he starts them, any way he chooses?
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
LOL right, the whole asian and African world should be "subservient" to 'galilee rats' and whatever that entails.
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The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
So?
You love to pull quotes out of context, then put these vague insinuations without drawing conclusions from them. Perhaps because your conclusions are illogical and you hide behind the lack of clarity so as to not receive direct criticism. Maybe you can't own up to what you really wish to conclude from this.
Let's flesh this out a little bit. Perhaps the Tzemach Tzedek meant hamites in the sense of those who were cursed. And if the curse has run it's course and now blacks are given "equal rights" aka are treated with dignity in society and given civil treatment and justice in court of law, now it came true what Tzemach Tzedek predicted. The curse would be over by the messianic times. And the messianic times of course ushers in this period of goodness in society where once downtrodden people are treated with respect and not viewed as lowly hamites. Wouldn't that be lovely?
Or perhaps he meant what you think he meant. Ok, so? Maybe he was wrong. This is a strange prediction. Should we go around massacring "hamites" to make his mistake come true? LOL, you have to be joking (or sick).
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The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them. If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
What is kloloh?
How will they stop existing in the Messianic age?
It means CURSED!
Remember the Curse of Noach on the descendents of Ham?
It was still in effect during the time of Avraham Avinu, since Eliezer his slave was a descendant of Ham, and Avraham would not allow Yitzak to marry the daughter of Eliezer because of the curse...
I think he meant that more as a rhetorical question, muman. Meaning that galilee hasn't fully thought out what he is saying.... or...
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The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them. If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
What is kloloh?
How will they stop existing in the Messianic age?
It means CURSED!
Remember the Curse of Noach on the descendents of Ham?
It was still in effect during the time of Avraham Avinu, since Eliezer his slave was a descendant of Ham, and Avraham would not allow Yitzak to marry the daughter of Eliezer because of the curse...
I think he meant that more as a rhetorical question, muman. Meaning that galilee hasn't fully thought out what he is saying.... or...
Oh, sorry...
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Let's put it this way. Show us in halacha galilee where there is any distinction made between dark skin-type gentiles vs. light skin gentiles. That we are supposed to act any differently based on skin color or racial composition. LOL, while you're searching, let us know if you find any flying pigs.
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I found it interesting that they let him back on here originally. Maybe he himself is just racist and chauvinist and not really trying to make all other Jews seem that way, just that he wants them to be but his views are sincerely his. That must be what motivated them to let him back. And for sure he is ideologically with JTF too, so I can see that.
But when he posts smut like this, nobody can take his views seriously. If he is against the current issue of falash mura for a principled reason, that is one thing. But when the discussion devolves into the 'curse of the hamites' and how asians should be subservient to humanity as a whole, it just proves that the "principle" he is arguing on is really just an excuse and a front for his underlying racism/hatred. And that in some way discredits all the people on his side of the argument, unfortunately, even if they have good reasons.
If ethiopians are sincere converts and sincere Jews, they can succeed like any other Jew. The problem is Israeli society is very clique-ish so different 'types' of Jews can make it difficult for certain other 'types'.... And this is not limited to blacks/white or sephardi/ashkenaz. Even some Jews look at "anglos" in a certain way (askance) because they resent american politics etc.... So, many ethiopians do have a real objection there, and sometimes difficulty integrating, but hopefully in time that will heal , just like for all groups. One of the greatest strengths of the religious zionist community in my opinion is that they appeal to unity and to integrating all types of Jews in their 'camp' in the settlements and their schools etc. I think resenting a Jew because he descends from blacks is a disgrace.
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I agree with KWRBT, this Jew is a racist and wants us all to be. This is what StormFont wants to believe about JTF.
I think that all Jews are beautiful people. I see the Jewish neshama in many of the Ethiopian Jews I have met.
I am sorry that this guy had to be banned. His approach is too extreme and I cannot subscribe to his beliefs about Chabad and Chassidus.
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Let's put it this way. Show us in halacha galilee where there is any distinction made between dark skin-type gentiles vs. light skin gentiles. That we are supposed to act any differently based on skin color or racial composition. LOL, while you're searching, let us know if you find any flying pigs.
I can't find any real problems with the facts of GALRAT. Is it possible that we have been blinded by modern scociety and its forced intergration.We must clearly understand that The Torah was writtien by G-d for man and makes it very clear concerning the Hamites.
We can't take a pair of scissors and start snipping away at parts we find hard to accept!
Let's get real people!
This from "Journey in to Greatness" (Rav Miller 1998) p144:
"Bamidbar 12:1. CONCERNING THE CUSHITE WOMAN. There are more than one explanation of the identity of this Cushite woman; but here we shall follow most of the commentators that identify her as Zipporah, the Midianite wife of Moshe (Shmos 2:21), who resembled a Cushite because of the dark complexion of her Midianite people. This matter of complexion is actually more important than is usually understood. We must first inquire: Why are Moshe's posterity almost entirely ignored by the To rah? After the mention of his two sons, Gershom and Eliezer, nothing is mentioned of their children. Later we find: "As for Moshe the man of G-d, his sons are named among the tribe of Levi" (I Divre Hayamim 23:14). Rechaviah the son of Eliezer (the son of Moshe) had very many sons (ibid. 23:17). To us it seems puzzling that the descendants of the greatest man in history are not mentioned more emphatically. Most specifically: why were Moshe's children not made Cohanim, just as was done for the sons of Aharon?
Two answers are available (among others), and these two answers need each other.
1) "Dark-skinned Cohanim would be rejected by the law requiring unblemished men (Vayikra 21:18). Even if the complexion would not actually constitute a blemish, yet
the Cohanim must represent the seed of the Fathers. The principle of "racism" is one of the foundations, and the "seed of the Fathers" is specifically designated in the Covenant of the Fathers ("to be to you a G-d and to your seed after you - Breshis 17:7). All races are eligible for joining the Torah-nation, and for their promise of the Afterlife, but those that officiate in the service of Hashem must symbolise the Fathers and the seed of the Fathers. Therefore the children of the Midianite (Cushite) woman were not elevated to the Cehunah, despite the supreme excellence of their father"
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*cough*troll*cough*
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The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them. If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
You obviously are here to make religious Jews look as bad as possible. Either you are a far-left Feces Now-type wanker or a Spermfront member.
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I agree with KWRBT, this Jew is a racist and wants us all to be. This is what StormFont wants to believe about JTF.
How do you know that this individual is even a Jew? It could easily be a "tribalist" who is out to prove how "evil" the Talmud is to the world.
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Whoever he is... The "new guy" in this thread is obviously him. Maybe that's why they let him back... Because no matter how many times they ban him he's going to come back under a new screenname.
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Listen everyone who is involved in this thread!
It is Elul, the month of preparation for the High Holidays. We should not be fighting between ourselves. If this galilerat is really Jewish let him show it in the way he behaves. A Jew doesnt create machlokes like this right before the day of Judgment. I ask that all the Jews please attempt to learn the laws of Teshuva and to implement them.
My current signature line relates the mitzvah of returning lost items. I have heard an interpretation of this law to mean that we should always help return the lost soul of a Jew to the path of Torah. I ask that you look into Torah and attempt to rise to the level which Moshe inspired our forefathers, to rise against the inclination of evil, the path of hatred and disrespect.
Every Jewish neshama is important to the Jewish nation. While we can argue about erev rav and whether certain converts are sincere in their conversions, or whether their conversion was 'kosher' enough for us... It will not bring about the desired goal of bringing Moshiach. When it comes to rebuke it must be said lovingly and with good intention.
Please have respect for the sages of Israel and the wisdom which our scholars have passed to us. Most hold the Chofetz Chaim to be very brilliant regarding the mitzvahs of Ahavas Yisroel and the negativity associated with Lashon Hara. Every High Holiday period I read the Chofetz Chaims Daily companion to help me use my power of speech for the purpose of goodness.
My kevannah is with all who sincerely want to see the world of Moshiach in our days.
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Let's put it this way. Show us in halacha galilee where there is any distinction made between dark skin-type gentiles vs. light skin gentiles. That we are supposed to act any differently based on skin color or racial composition. LOL, while you're searching, let us know if you find any flying pigs.
I can't find any real problems with the facts of GALRAT.
You also couldn't show us anything in halacha.
You did quote a long "anti modernity" speech by Rav Miller, which I must say is a HUGE stretch...
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Let's put it this way. Show us in halacha galilee where there is any distinction made between dark skin-type gentiles vs. light skin gentiles. That we are supposed to act any differently based on skin color or racial composition. LOL, while you're searching, let us know if you find any flying pigs.
1) "Dark-skinned Cohanim would be rejected by the law requiring unblemished men (Vayikra 21:18). Even if the complexion would not actually constitute a blemish, yet
the Cohanim must represent the seed of the Fathers.
See the great thing about hashqafic tangents like this is that they leave themselves open to rational thought. You know, it's what you do with your brain. It is interesting that Rav Miller implicitly admits the weakness of his claim (I have heard several reasons why Moshe's sons were passed over, and this was not one of them). He says "Even if the complexion would not actually constitute a blemish" ... He admits that is not really a blemish even if he'd like it to be. He is creative here, even surprising/shocking, but not very convincing. On what does he base this? He speaks of the covenant in Bereshith. What does that have to do with kehuna? And if kehuna, why not everything else as well, including membership in the Jewish nation? Afterall, the covenant with Avraham was about the Jewish people. So do we say that Jews who do not "look like the seed of the fathers" are not Jewish too? Apparently you do argue that, but clearly that is not in Rav Miller. (he refutes that in the next line you quoted). And to me that is preposterous and against everything JTF stands for and Rav Kahane stood for, but not what Rav Miller is saying anyway. ie "All races are eligible for joining the Torah-nation, and for their promise of the Afterlife"
So if you fish for your hashkafa out of selections from R Miller's polemic works, it is curious why you take the liberty to champion something he was clearly against, and then dishonestly quote him as if what he wrote supports you or is a help to your argument, when really he writes the exact opposite of what you wrote of the ethiopians. That is twisted.
Keep in mind nobody is debating here about ethiopian gerim joining the kehuna (or whatever else you imagine). So even if we took what Rav Miller wrote at face value, pretending there was no other indication in midrashim for why Moshe's sons were passed up, it still has nothing to do with the subject of the ethiopian Jews/ falash mura etc...
The other interesting thing about hashqafic tangents is that they often have nothing to do with halacha. And you were asked about halacha, and how Jews should act differently amongst different goyim. Of course you can't answer that. You can only cherrypick a few quotes that favor some 'sentiment' of yours.
The principle of "racism" is one of the foundations, and the "seed of the Fathers" is specifically designated in the Covenant of the Fathers ("to be to you a G-d and to your seed after you - Breshis 17:7). All races are eligible for joining the Torah-nation, and for their promise of the Afterlife , but those that officiate in the service of Hashem must symbolise the Fathers and the seed of the Fathers. Therefore the children of the Midianite (Cushite) woman were not elevated to the Cehunah, despite the supreme excellence of their father"[/i]
It's cute the way Rav Miller finds ways to thumb his nose at modern values here, but I am deeply troubled by the statement "the principle of racism is one of the foundations." What is the context of that? With all due respect, it really does come off sounding like lunacy. He must not mean racism the way you do. That is probably where you go wrong, although the apparent source of your hashqafa is also troubling. Because it appears to be your own desires super-imposed onto the writings of great men.
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Wow, galileerat. Now you are attacking Ethiopians. I remember you defended them once:
Just like G-d commanded the Twelve Tribes to dwell apart in Biblical times, thereby each preserving its own unique character and traits whilst still united as one nation under Torah, and according to Ezekiel 48 will again live separately in Messianic times, Ethiopians should live with pride in their own 50,000-person towns in Judea & Samaria, to be named "Kfar Falash", " Kochav Etiyopiya" or "Kiryat Kush", to be built by their own hands, according to their style, with their own Ethiopian mayors, police, judges, teachers, social services, festivals and shimagle elders.
But for you it is not a contradiction. Since you objective is to create hostility between different religious and/or nationalistic groups, any approach that serves the objective is valid even if it contradicts the previous ones.
Galileerat pretends to be knowlegeable in hashkafa (Jewish religious vision of the world), uses Halachic terms and some Jews who do not know much about Judaism may take what he says at face value.
In fact, he insults Torah scholars and tries to trade his own insane ideas as Halacha (Jewish law). He misqoutes rabbis and distorts their words.
Galileerat is a very dangerous troll.
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The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them. If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
I want you to show me one serious rabbi who speak like that ? You are delusional.
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Had to dig deep into the library and it took a while to find it Galrat... would ya belive it you're correct.
Who ever says that I'm Galrat going under another name can take a hike! That's just an easy way shutting down a debate by smearing people who side with a point you can't get your head around.
I suppose when Moshiach comes there's gonna be a lot of shocks!
Thanks:)
Here are Miller's exact words
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6589/8312009121549pm.th.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/8312009121549pm.jpg/)
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So wonga66, how come you started posted immediately after galrat's been banned ? It seems too coordinated.
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So wonga66, how come you started posted immediately after galrat's been banned ? It seems too coordinated.
the subject was brought to my attention by another member who has an Ethiopian girlfriend so I thought I'd make my suggestion.I hope that's cool with you???
It's amazing how quoting R'Miller, let alone straight forward Pshat Torah is out of bounds and on the JTF Forum ...would you belive!
Golda Meir said that greater than the fear she had of war between jew and arab and greater than war between Israeli and Israeli is war between Charedi and Charedi (meaning Torah observant inc.knitted kippot).
Are you observant?
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So wonga66, how come you started posted immediately after galrat's been banned ? It seems too coordinated.
the subject was brought to my attention by another member who has an Ethiopian girlfriend so I thought I'd make my suggestion.I hope that's cool with you???
It's amazing how quoting R'Miller, let alone straight forward Pshat Torah is out of bounds and on the JTF Forum ...would you belive!
Golda Meir said that greater than the fear she had of war between jew and arab and greater than war between Israeli and Israeli is war between Charedi and Charedi (meaning Torah observant inc.knitted kippot).
Are you observant?
This quote does nothing to prove or disprove the basic premise. This is simply saying that they cannot be Cohanim, yet anyone not born a Kohanim cannot become a kohanim. It is not a 'curse' that they cannot become a Kohen.
What does this quote prove? It just talks about Miriams complaint to Moshe about not having relations with his wife {for this Miriam was smited with Tzaras}.
PS: Look at issue #2 in the quoted text... It appears that the real reason Moshes sons were not elevated to Kahuna was because the nation would think it was nepotism {and Korach and his evil coalition capitilized on this idea in their revolt}... They already felt that Moshe was keeping to much of the Holy service in his own family...
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So wonga66, how come you started posted immediately after galrat's been banned ? It seems too coordinated.
the subject was brought to my attention by another member who has an Ethiopian girlfriend so I thought I'd make my suggestion.I hope that's cool with you???
It's amazing how quoting R'Miller, let alone straight forward Pshat Torah is out of bounds and on the JTF Forum ...would you belive!
Golda Meir said that greater than the fear she had of war between jew and arab and greater than war between Israeli and Israeli is war between Charedi and Charedi (meaning Torah observant inc.knitted kippot).
Are you observant?
What did you mean when you wrote "charedi (meaning Torah observant inc. knitted kippot)?" I don't think there are many knitted kipa people who identify as "charedi."
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Who ever says that I'm Galrat going under another name can take a hike!
But you are.
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So wonga66, how come you started posted immediately after galrat's been banned ? It seems too coordinated.
It's amazing how quoting R'Miller, .... is out of bounds
Nobody said it was. But quoting him in order to distort his opinion or to pretend he supports your own beliefs when clearly he doesn't, I would call that "out of bounds." Because it's dishonest. Also, drawing a wacked-out conclusion from what R Miller wrote may be a sincere mistake and to be rejected, but given that you did the former (distortion), it is hard to believe that the latter is sincere in any way. Either way, refuting it is not out of bounds either. That is all that was done.
let alone straight forward Pshat Torah is out of bounds and on the JTF Forum ...
LOL. Straight forward pshat Torah. Right. You've got to be kidding.
I have yet to see that from you in this thread.
Btw, you are again distorting. When golda meir said 'war between charedi and charedi' we all know that that means different subsects of haredim.... And yes, they are at each others throats (see recent controversy involving R Porush and the Jerusalem mayoral contest). And yes, warfare between different sects of haredim is terrible for the Jewish people and a very dangerous affair indeed.
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Who ever says that I'm Galrat going under another name can take a hike!
Oh give us a damn break. We're not stupid. How much money do you want us to bet that Lisa or Dan Ben Noah will confirm that you are indeed Mifletzet?
You are a rat indeed... you are filthy, stinking, and loaded with plague germs. You should go home to your Muzzie friends in Arab-occupied Judea and Samaria now.
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Just like G-d commanded the Twelve Tribes to dwell apart in Biblical times, thereby each preserving its own unique character and traits whilst still united as one nation under Torah, and according to Ezekiel 48 will again live separately in Messianic times, Ethiopians should live with pride in their own 50,000-person towns in Judea & Samaria, to be named "Kfar Falash", " Kochav Etiyopiya" or "Kiryat Kush", to be built by their own hands, according to their style, with their own Ethiopian mayors, police, judges, teachers, social services, festivals and shimagle elders.
LOL. The irony is too thick. First you said in Messianic times there will be no more "hamites." And that was supposed to somehow justify not letting in Ethiopians (even if they convert sincerely). Because afterall 'hamites' are "bad" and we are trying to bring messiah and messianic times not delay it right? But now (ignoring for a moment your logical fallacy), all of a sudden, we are IN messianic times according to you, and for that reason, the "12 tribes" (we are not 12 tribes anymore! We do not know who is who. We had only 3 known tribes left in Judea at one point), the "12 tribes" as you call it have to live apart from each other, since it is messianic era to you when it's convenient, so therefore if we do let in ethiopians they have to live in their own all-ethiopian towns. LOL. But I thought in messianic times you said there are no more blacks. So which is it?
But now let's address the logical fallacy.
Just like G-d commanded the Twelve Tribes to dwell apart in Biblical times
Yes they had different portions in the land, although no one was forbidden to move to different areas, and nowhere in halacha are they forbidden to marry to other tribes in the greater Jewish kingdom. Can you cite a halacha forbidding it? hehehe...
and according to Ezekiel 48 will again live separately in Messianic times,
Interesting, assuming for the moment that Ezekiel does indeed say that, can you see how this does not follow logically from "Just like G-d commanded" ? Something to follow "Just like G-d commanded," and be a force compelling us to arrange similar circumstances today would be words like "G-d commanded the Jewish people to always divide into tribes when conquering the land of Israel" But we both know this is not a halachic principle at all. So of course you could not say that. What you did say, does not follow logically. If Ezekiel predicted it, it will come to be, but obviously not in the way you think! We don't even know what tribes are right now. Perhaps after we have conquered/liberated all of greater Israel, then we will come to define ourselves again by tribes, based on where people live even if it is not accurately the "original" tribes that people truly descend from genetically speaking (since we have no idea, and so many are tribally mixed). That would seem most straightforward, and how that could very likely come true.
Ethiopians should
This is wishful thinking on your part. There is no halachic imperative to any of this. Nor have you cited any.
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KWR, who were/are the real Hamites? The Bible doesn't really talk much about them.
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Who ever says that I'm Galrat going under another name can take a hike!
Oh give us a damn break. We're not stupid. How much money do you want us to bet that Lisa or Dan Ben Noah will confirm that you are indeed Mifletzet?
You are a rat indeed... you are filthy, stinking, and loaded with plague germs. You should go home to your Muzzie friends in Arab-occupied Judea and Samaria now.
Can you stop saying that I am Galrat!
You are making a bad name for yourself.
Stick to the subject....or stand aside!
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Hmmm...
1--you have the exact same typing style
2--you make the exact same arguments
3--you come to the very thread that Rat started, but only after Rat was banned
How defective do you think our BS meters are?
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Who ever says that I'm Galrat going under another name can take a hike!
Oh give us a damn break. We're not stupid. How much money do you want us to bet that Lisa or Dan Ben Noah will confirm that you are indeed Mifletzet?
You are a rat indeed... you are filthy, stinking, and loaded with plague germs. You should go home to your Muzzie friends in Arab-occupied Judea and Samaria now.
Can you stop saying that I am Galrat!
You are making a bad name for yourself.
Stick to the subject....or stand aside!
You are galrat, but I agree, let's just refute him rather than "attack" him for being galrat. Come on, he is easy to refute. Gets boring after a while.
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KWR, who were/are the real Hamites? The Bible doesn't really talk much about them.
I think the midrashic literature defines the Hamites as black people. Because Ham was black. But that is very general. It's not really "black." Because also descending from the Hamites are the Mizrayim (ancient Egyptians), the evil ancient Caananites, the Kushim (african blacks), libyans, etc.
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Are Hamites all considered to be evil?
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Are Hamites all considered to be evil?
No.
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Are Hamites all considered to be evil?
I dont think that is the case... There is a curse on the Hamites because of how Ham dealt with Noah after the flood.
http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=323
A Shameful Curse
Parshat Noach
Adam Penrod
One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.
I first saw the Torah used to support this view when I was a child in school. While covering slavery in America the teacher mentioned that one of the defenses that many slave owners used to defend their use of the African community, particularly, as slaves was none other than the book of Genesis (Bereishit).
In Parshat Noach we learn that Noach, after finally leaving the ark, planted a grape vine from which he made wine. Noach drank so much wine that he eventually fell asleep. The text tells us that Ham, Noach’s son, found his father naked and went to tell his other brothers about this. Shem and Yapheth, not impressed, took a garment walked in backwards and placed it over their father.
Eventually Noach woke up and “sees” what his youngest son had done.< [1]< Once awake Noach says, “…cursed be Canaan surely a slave he will be to his brothers”< [2]< It is clear that Canaan is cursed to be a slave to his brothers, but what that means is not yet clear.
A Strange Curse
There has always been some wonder at why Canaan was cursed. Concerning the text of the Torah it is unclear that Canaan had anything to do with Noach. All we know is that Ham saw his father’s nakedness, told his brothers, and Noach awoke to curse Canaan. At the very least this is a strange sequence of events.
There are several theories offered to explain this strange event. One theory is that since Ham had already been blessed by God Noach was unable to curse him and so cursed his son instead. This is very strange if Noach were only naked. Cursing someone with slavery for seeing their nakedness does not sound just for someone as righteous as Noach.
There are two primary theories about what happened. The first is that seeing his father’s nakedness Ham had an illicit affair with Noach while he slept. This gruesome scene does not seem to fit with the curse. The punishment must be equal to the crime. The second theory seems more likely. Ham, seeing his father’s nakedness realized that if Noach had another son, a fourth son, that the world would be split between four peoples and not three. Realizing this, Ham thought it best if Noach were not able to produce any more heirs and castrated his father.
As a result Noach cursed Canaan to be a slave to his brothers. A slave does not rule, everything the slave owns is actually the master’s. The reasoning behind this explanation was that just as Ham had castrated his father Noach to prevent a fourth son of Noach from having a share in the world; Noach would curse Ham’s fourth son, therefore preventing him from having a true share in this world.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[3]<!--[endif]-->
Canaan not Ham
For some reason people jump from the curse of Canaan back to Ham. Instead of only applying Noach’s curse to Canaan, which the Torah seems very clear about, they apply it to all of Ham’s descendants.
The world was divided into three groups, descendants of Shem, Ham and Yapheth. The descendants of Shem were apportioned the near to Middle East regions, Ham’s descendants were given Africa, and Yapheth’s descendants were given the lands to the north around the Mediterranean. There is debate as to whether the Far East went to Yapheth or Shem.
Canaan went to dwell in Israel—territories belonging to Shem. It is unclear whether this was done of Canaan’s volition or if this were part of his curse or both. Whatever the reasons for Canaan taking control of the land; the territories that were taken over by Canaan did not belong to the descendants of Ham. The land of Canaan should have been the land of Shem!
The Canaanites built up the land of Israel over the centuries until it was finally taken into the possession of the Israelites—the true heirs of Shem! God promised Israel this in the Torah when he said: “And it shall be, when the Lord your God shall have brought you into the land which he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give you great and goodly cities, which you did not build”< [4]< God promised a land to Israel that would be ready for them to move into.
The True Heirs to the Land
The first Rashi in Bereishit asks why the Torah begins in Bereishit rather than later in Exodus with the giving of the first commandment by God to Israel. Rashi’s answer is that it was to serve as an answer to the nations who accused Israel of theft when they took the Land from the Canaanites. The answer was that Bereishit gives the account of God creating the world and therefore he may give the Land to whomever he chooses and take the Land from whom he chooses and give it to another.
The second response to the challenge of the nations against Israel is that the Canaanite nations were slaves to the House of Shem. Israel being the truest heir of Shem (both physically and spiritually) is the masters of the Canaanites. As we said, whatever possessions a slave may possess do not really belong to the slave but to the master. Therefore the Land of Canaan was really the property of Shem and therefore the property of Israel!
The Jewish people’s claim to the land of Israel at the time of the Canaanites was several. First, God being the creator and therefore owner of the Universe could give and take away the land. Second, Canaan did not have a legitimate claim to the Land. They came into and took over Land that rightly belonged to the Shemite families—specifically this Land belonged to Israel as Shem’s chosen heir (chosen by God). Lastly, Canaan as a slave to the house of Shem did not truly possess the land but worked it and built it up. The true ownership of the Land and all that was in it belonging to Israel.
Back to the Point
It may seem that we have strayed from our original discussion. However, it was very important to first establish that Canaan was a family who had been cursed to be slaves to their brothers. It was also important to build from this that the land of Israel (then known as Canaan) legitimately belonged to Israel for the above reasons. Now we may return to the focus of this paper.
Although Canaan was clearly cursed by Noach to be a slave to Shem and Yapheth, this curse had no bearing on the remainder of the Hamitic peoples. The curse was very specific, only Canaan was cursed. If you will remember we discovered earlier that it was impossible for God to curse Ham because he had already been blessed by God. As such, to go back and then claim that the curse of Canaan some how applied to all of the Hamitic peoples violates this very clear teaching.
Even more to the point, Egypt (called Mitzraim) was the first “Super Power” in the ancient world. Egypt was an African empire begun by the Hamites. It wasn’t until much later in the history of Egypt that it was ruled by Semitic peoples (possibly conquered by Amalek after the Israelites had left Egypt).< [5]<
A Shameful Teaching
The teaching that Hamitic peoples are somehow lesser, a slave people, is very clearly not a teaching of the Torah. Even more, the Rabbis say that due to the mixing of the Nations it is no longer possible to point out Canaanites and therefore the curse of Noach is no longer in effect. This curse, in my opinion, was fulfilled when Israel came into the Land of Canaan, and took possession of the cities, towns and produce, all of which were the work of the Canaanite families.
To attempt to apply this curse to any people today is nothing less than shameful and a complete, and intentional, misreading of the Torah. It is with this in mind that we should all strive for the true teaching of the Torah which is that all peoples are brothers and that our cooperation and striving together with one another is our true aim in life.
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But there is an association being made that these groups descended from Ham who was cursed (for doing evil). These cultures had very bad aspects to them (ancient egyptians, canaanites)... But no, hamites are not evil necessarily (or good). Like any group they can be either.
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I have heard the opinion that Noah was wrong to curse his child--that he was drunken and dishonored himself--is that false?
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But there is an association being made that these groups descended from Ham who was cursed (for doing evil). These cultures had very bad aspects to them (ancient egyptians, canaanites)... But no, hamites are not evil necessarily (or good). Like any group they can be either.
So what do you think Mifletzet's true goal is here? Is this person a self-hating, anti-Torah Jew, a black nationalist who wants to make Jews look bad, or perhaps a WN who wants to make a biblical argument for untermenschen theories?
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I have heard the opinion that Noah was wrong to curse his child--that he was drunken and dishonored himself--is that false?
I dont think that this conclusion is correct. Ham had castrated Noach and deserved a curse... It is a difficult story to understand but basically the curse fell on Canaan, one of the sons of Ham...
There has always been some wonder at why Canaan was cursed. Concerning the text of the Torah it is unclear that Canaan had anything to do with Noach. All we know is that Ham saw his father’s nakedness, told his brothers, and Noach awoke to curse Canaan. At the very least this is a strange sequence of events.
There are several theories offered to explain this strange event. One theory is that since Ham had already been blessed by G-d Noach was unable to curse him and so cursed his son instead. This is very strange if Noach were only naked. Cursing someone with slavery for seeing their nakedness does not sound just for someone as righteous as Noach.
There are two primary theories about what happened. The first is that seeing his father’s nakedness Ham had an illicit affair with Noach while he slept. This gruesome scene does not seem to fit with the curse. The punishment must be equal to the crime. The second theory seems more likely. Ham, seeing his father’s nakedness realized that if Noach had another son, a fourth son, that the world would be split between four peoples and not three. Realizing this, Ham thought it best if Noach were not able to produce any more heirs and castrated his father.
As a result Noach cursed Canaan to be a slave to his brothers. A slave does not rule, everything the slave owns is actually the master’s. The reasoning behind this explanation was that just as Ham had castrated his father Noach to prevent a fourth son of Noach from having a share in the world; Noach would curse Ham’s fourth son, therefore preventing him from having a true share in this world
I think the curse was appropriate..
Although this site uses this to show that Noach was not a complete Tzadik, he was a Tzadik in comparison with the rest of his generation:
http://www.jewishmag.com/118mag/noah-tzadik/noah-tzadik.htm
http://njop.org/html/NOAH5763-2002.htm
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I dont think that this conclusion is correct. Ham had castrated Noach and deserved a curse.
I read it... isn't that still theorization? Why would he tell his brothers that he committed such a savage crime? Wouldn't he be afraid that they would kill him on the spot?
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I dont think that this conclusion is correct. Ham had castrated Noach and deserved a curse.
Why would he tell his brothers that he committed such a savage crime?
I think they knew without him telling them...... Use your imagination. :::D
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What I mean is, wouldn't he want to get far, far away from them so that he doesn't get caught?
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Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside.
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Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside.
haha, oh I thought you meant about the castration....
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So where do you think Mifletzet went to, and what his or her or its motive was?
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24. And Noah awoke from his wine, and he knew what his small son had done to him.
25. And he said, "Cursed be Canaan; he shall be a slave among slaves to his brethren."
It was either castration or a different form of violation. But Noah certainly knew and was reacting to it by cursing ham's son...
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So where do you think Mifletzet went to, and what his or her or its motive was?
I don't really know exactly, nor do I much care. I honestly think he might be sincere. Sincerely misguided (even if not completely... he does intimate allegiance to Torah Judaism and some Kahanist principles). But it does seem to me these are his actual views.
At the end of the day it really makes no difference who "he" really is... or what his motive is... Once somebody writes something here, the view becomes its own entity that can be judged on its merits (or lack thereof). As with any person we should only worry if we don't know the facts ourselves and if we can't determine whether the view is meritorious or not. As long as we can distinguish, the source is irrelevant, IMO.
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So where do you think Mifletzet went to, and what his or her or its motive was?
Remember that his original name was Nonny. He posted under that name at revava. He also posted at kahane.org as Mifletzet.
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So where do you think Mifletzet went to, and what his or her or its motive was?
Remember that his original name was Nonny. He posted under that name at revava. He also posted at kahane.org as Mifletzet.
kahane.org did that place get shut down?
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So where do you think Mifletzet went to, and what his or her or its motive was?
Remember that his original name was Nonny. He posted under that name at revava. He also posted at kahane.org as Mifletzet.
kahane.org did that place get shut down?
Kahane.org and revava both shut down.
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Kahane.org and revava both shut down.
Oh, do you know why?
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Kahane.org and revava both shut down.
Oh, do you know why?
I don't know why kahane.org shut down. Before it shut down, someone on kahane.org wrote that David Ha'ivri felt like he did not need a forum anymore which is why revava shut down. David Ha'ivri's Hebrew forum must still be active since there was a post on that forum last week, but it was probably the fifth or sixth post on that forum in the past year.
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Good riddance to that worthless dreck.
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As can be heard on this 30 second audio clip whether you agree or disagree with him,this Rabbi Miller didn't mince his words about anything - including the Ethiopians!
(http://MySpaceFileHosting.com/ico/mp3.gif) falashas.mp3 (http://MySpaceFileHosting.com/llzij/falashas.mp3.html)
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6640/screenhunter01sep010541.jpg)
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Uggh.
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Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R. Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel or what it should do since his hashqafa was to have nothing to do with the "evil atheist zionist state." With all due respect to a great man. This also reflects the difference between a rabbi who is live, on the ground, practical and relevant vs. someone who is "out of touch" with the realities by sitting comfortably in galuth. The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute. I think we see that here. And I think that basic truth is unavoidable.
Some "Ethiopian Jews" (ie blacks that came to Israel calling themselves such) are really Jews, and many of them did a conversion to solidify it in case of doubt. How can anyone question such a group? They serve in the army, they get educations, they try to be good citizens, and they identify with Jewish culture and practices (even despite discrimination that they unfortunately face). There are such Ethiopian Jews in Israel. R. Miller makes a mistake when he labels all of them as one and the same. As if all the missionaries who snuck in, and at the same time all the sincere real ethiopian Jews are just one big conglomerate of "ethiopian Jews" who are "not really Jews." Of course, if one pointed this out to him, he would correct himself and of course he did not mean that. But because mifletzet hates black people, he would like to present as if R. Miller does too, and as if this cherry picked quote supports his view that all ethiopian Jews should be carted off to ghettos, thrown out or not allowed in Israel in the first place because their "just blacks."
Many of the REAL ethiopian Jews who are sincere, despise the phony missionary ethiopians who want to sneak into Israel by pretending to be Jewish and doing a phony conversion if necessary. Because this group of people (the missionaries) made life hell for the real Jews back in Ethiopia, for many years.
Mifletzet would lump in the real black Jews with those fakers/Ethiopian non-Jews they rightfully hate.
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Aren't Gentile Ethiopians a Semitic nation too though? I don't deny their anti-Semitism, but they do appear to be a really unique people. They don't look "black" at all--they have very delicate features oftentimes, and almost look like a combination of Hispanic and South Asian.
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Aren't Gentile Ethiopians a Semitic nation too though?
Who cares?
Indeed you are right though, Ethiopians have sort of a unique racial composition different from blacks you see in America or Africans. They have different facial structure than African americans. Better looking if you ask me but just my opinion.
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One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.
The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.
There are several theories offered to explain this strange event. One theory is that since Ham had already been blessed by G-d Noach was unable to curse him and so cursed his son instead. This is very strange if Noach were only naked. Cursing someone with slavery for seeing their nakedness does not sound just for someone as righteous as Noach.
It sounds like the author is judging by today's standards.
There are two primary theories about what happened. The first is that seeing his father’s nakedness Ham had an illicit affair with Noach while he slept. This gruesome scene does not seem to fit with the curse. The punishment must be equal to the crime. The second theory seems more likely. Ham, seeing his father’s nakedness realized that if Noach had another son, a fourth son, that the world would be split between four peoples and not three. Realizing this, Ham thought it best if Noach were not able to produce any more heirs and castrated his father.
As a result Noach cursed Canaan to be a slave to his brothers. A slave does not rule, everything the slave owns is actually the master’s. The reasoning behind this explanation was that just as Ham had castrated his father Noach to prevent a fourth son of Noach from having a share in the world; Noach would curse Ham’s fourth son, therefore preventing him from having a true share in this world.
This is the first time I hear about the castration. This is not in the Torah, right? Is this a standard Talmudic interpretation?
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Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R. Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel
The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute.
Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.
I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?
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Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R. Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel
The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute.
Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.
I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?
KWRBT was not being disrespectful to Rabbi Miller. He was just respectfully disagreeing with some of Rabbi Miller's ideas. Also, when has he been hostile towards ashkenazim?
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Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R. Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel
The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute.
Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.
I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?
KWRBT was not being disrespectful to Rabbi Miller. He was just respectfully disagreeing with some of Rabbi Miller's ideas. Also, when has he been hostile towards ashkenazim?
To say that his opinion is not astute does not seem respectful to me. It implies that th Rabbi is not intelligent enough. As for the Ashkenazim, I can't point to a specific quote. Perhaps my impression is inaccurate. But I am surprised by the vehemance of his response. Why be so hostile to such an opinion by a respected Rabbi? Strange.
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There is something that I want to say, but it's hard for me to articulate. Maybe I haven't thought it through enough myself yet. But I'll make a first attempt.
There is something suspect, too contemporary and leftist, in the current propensity toward "culturalism" and anti-racial-solidarity and affinity mentality. It is not a matter of principle, but one of degree. I think that the pendulum has swung too far. It should return to somewhere closer to the middle.
Nobody argues that Judaism is a religion. Granted. But it is a religion grafted onto a specific tribe connected by blood ties - the tribe that has not lost its racial, blood-related continuity since ancient times. Looking at Jewish faces is strong enough evidence. But today's DNA studies provide irrefutable evidence that Jews are related and form an ethnic group.
Now, I wholeheartedly agree with the possibility open to non-Jews to be converted to Judaism. Surely, if a family can adopt a child, who is not blood-related to them, then a national family should be able to accept new members, just as nation states give new citizenships to foreigners. But these conversions should be done on an individual basis. Orthodox Rabbis should make it difficult to convert (which they do today, as I understand). The convertee must be "tested," as it were. The Rabbi should make sure that this person really wants to convert, that he is a Gentile born with the Jewish soul. The rabbi should first say "no" several times and then agree reluctantly (which they also do, as I understand). As far as I know, Orthodox conversions take between 6 and 10 years. And that is as should be!
Who are these Ethiopians? Who converted them en masse? Rabbi Miller is asking these questions. His doubts are warranted, it seems to me. Genetic studies show that Ethiopian Jews are not as closely related to the Jewish genotype as the Ashkenazi and Sefardic Jews between themselves.
Should their Jewishness be recognized? I don't know, I am not a Rabbi. But I am concerned about the hysterical reaction to this Rabbi's comment. I have often noticed that it is people of mixed blood who become bent out of shape at every mention of ethnicity and blood ties. This is a very modern attitude, and I don't like it. And this will happen more and more if nations become more and more mixed. I think we should find a golden middle.
And finally, I find such vehement insistence on the "proposition nation" aspect of Judaism personally threatening to my sense of identity. If everybody is a Jew, then who am I? Chopped liver? If my uninterrupted lineage from Abraham-Isaac-Jacob doesn't matter, if there is no name for who I am and how I feel towards people who look like me and share my genetic heritage, then I am a non-person, a non-entity. No, I insist that a Jew is as much of an ethnic designation as it is a religious one, and I insist that my ethnicity matters! It was very heartening to find that a real Orthodox Rabbi feels similarly. We are barraged today with liberal and politically correct rabbinical opinions. Thank G-d, there are dissenters!
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As can be seen here Rabbi Miller was in a class of his own http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx_NgHIBRt4
That the Ethiopians don't know about Tefillin, Hebrew, Aramaic, do not possess the Sefer Torah, do not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos, observe the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and keep the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own, perform animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple and practiced a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes, making no ritual distinction between meat and milk, circumcised boys omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, they subject girls to clitoridectomy, which is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes, both operations on boys and girls being performed by women, practice monasticism, have a theology which is a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements, have no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation, allow the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent, do not know about Chalitzah, Get is unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent, making it impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them etc., give pause for thought that when Rabbi Miller called them "plain Ethiopian blacks", he's probably right!
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One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.
The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.
There are several theories offered to explain this strange event. One theory is that since Ham had already been blessed by G-d Noach was unable to curse him and so cursed his son instead. This is very strange if Noach were only naked. Cursing someone with slavery for seeing their nakedness does not sound just for someone as righteous as Noach.
It sounds like the author is judging by today's standards.
There are two primary theories about what happened. The first is that seeing his father’s nakedness Ham had an illicit affair with Noach while he slept. This gruesome scene does not seem to fit with the curse. The punishment must be equal to the crime. The second theory seems more likely. Ham, seeing his father’s nakedness realized that if Noach had another son, a fourth son, that the world would be split between four peoples and not three. Realizing this, Ham thought it best if Noach were not able to produce any more heirs and castrated his father.
As a result Noach cursed Canaan to be a slave to his brothers. A slave does not rule, everything the slave owns is actually the master’s. The reasoning behind this explanation was that just as Ham had castrated his father Noach to prevent a fourth son of Noach from having a share in the world; Noach would curse Ham’s fourth son, therefore preventing him from having a true share in this world.
This is the first time I hear about the castration. This is not in the Torah, right? Is this a standard Talmudic interpretation?
Masha,
The Torah defines a different type of slavery for Jewish servants and gentile servants. A Jew who finds him/herself in dire financial straits and ends up owing money can sell himself into servitude. This servitude is not forever, it can only last seven years before the slave must be released. The laws of the Eved Ivri is the 1st mitzvah of the Parasha of Mishpatim {I remember because this is my Bar Mitzvah portion}.
And yes, the castration idea is a standard Talmudic interpretation...
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And yes, the castration idea is a standard Talmudic interpretation...
Wow, I had no idea. What an evil, evil son!
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As can be seen here Rabbi Miller was in a class of his own http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx_NgHIBRt4
He seems quite knowledgeable about science. Very impressive.
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That the Ethiopians don't know about Tefillin, Hebrew, Aramaic, do not possess the Sefer Torah, do not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos, observe the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and keep the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own, perform animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple and practiced a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes, making no ritual distinction between meat and milk, circumcised boys omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, they subject girls to clitoridectomy, which is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes, both operations on boys and girls being performed by women, practice monasticism, have a theology which is a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements, have no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation, allow the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent, do not know about Chalitzah, Get is unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent, making it impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them etc., give pause for thought that when Rabbi Miller called them "plain Ethiopian blacks", he's probably right!
Now, are you talking about the falasha Jews or about Falash-Mura?
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This is talking about the Falashas who came over in the 80s.
The Falashas at least had some Judaic elements to them.
The incoming Falash Mura immigrants are totally Xtianised. They look much more grob and tougher than the more refined Falashas.
Both communities hate each other, each viewing the others as traitors. As was posted in another thread, true racism (including against eachother) is only to be found amongst Blacks (as per their ancestor Ham=Cham="hot"=hotblooded and hotheaded)!
If these Israeli Blacks can be succesfully Judaised (as opposed to "Israelified"!) they may yet become a useful element, and they are easily won over to Kahanism.
Unfortunately due to the stupid Israeli leftist social-engineers, suicides, disease death rates, drugs, jailings and family murders are very high among Falashas and Falash Muras.
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This is talking about the Falashas who came over in the 80s.
I don't know all the terms you were mentioning, but I know some of them. And the discrepancies do sound very serious to me. It sounds like this was a political decision to bring these people to Israel - a way, perhaps, for the Sephardim to sock it to the Ashkenazim, i.e. part of the underground struggle between the two factions. I think that when the righteous government comes to power in Israel, it should be investigated thoroughly if the Falasha belong in Israel and are part of the Israeli nation. I think that the righeous leadership should not be afraid to implement politically bold decisions and undo past mistakes. If Falasha are not true Jews, perhaps they could be allocated some land on the border with the historical Greater Israel ordained by HaShem. Perhaps they could even become an autonomous territory within Israel and won't have to be deported back to Ethiopia.
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Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R. Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel
The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute.
Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.
I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?
I don't believe that was disrespectful. How can a galuth rabbi give his opinions about Jews and Judaism in Eretz Yisrael? How can it possibly be well-informed or exacting unless that rabbi transplants himself into Israel?
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Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R. Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel
The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute.
Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.
I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?
KWRBT was not being disrespectful to Rabbi Miller. He was just respectfully disagreeing with some of Rabbi Miller's ideas. Also, when has he been hostile towards ashkenazim?
To say that his opinion is not astute does not seem respectful to me. It implies that th Rabbi is not intelligent enough. As for the Ashkenazim, I can't point to a specific quote. Perhaps my impression is inaccurate. But I am surprised by the vehemance of his response. Why be so hostile to such an opinion by a respected Rabbi? Strange.
I , you, and anyone else, are allowed to criticize an opinion. Because an opinion is only an opinion. If we can't criticize or think critically about opinions, then we are done for. That means we have sacrificed our intellects. That is a grave sin. By saying an opinion was not very astute, I am expressing my dismay at what I heard. It was a generalization, and I'm sure if someone pointed out to R. Miller where he went wrong with that, he would admit right away he didn't mean it like that.
Why am I so "hostile" ? I'm not hostile at all, but certainly I am vigorously refuting galrat's notion that R. Miller supports racism against black Jews. This cherrypicked quote might superficially seem to support him, but it doesn't. I think it is important to make that clear, so call it hostile if you want, but it is just attention to detail.
The fact that you think I have something against Ashkenazim is a joke. I AM ASHKENAZI
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Who are these Ethiopians? Who converted them en masse? Rabbi Miller is asking these questions. His doubts are warranted, it seems to me. Genetic studies show that Ethiopian Jews are not as closely related to the Jewish genotype as the Ashkenazi and Sefardic Jews between themselves.
LOL. What a joke. He is "asking questions" ? No, he wasn't. He stated emphatically "They're not Jews." That's not asking questions. You are making excuses for racism against black Jews. That's all you're doing. You are paying lipservice to galrat's nonsense. He stated "They're not Jews." Unlike galrat, I do NOT think Rabbi Miller meant all of them, and if pointed out to him he was making a generalization he would have admitted he erred. Either that or he was completely ignorant about that issue and was just jammering about it anyway. But in my respect for Rabbi Miller, I do not suspect that was the case, I think it was an honest mistake. And that's hostile? You are hostile toward black Jews.
Genetic studies? Are you serious? You need genetic studies to show you that dark black ethiopian Jews are different genetically from ashkenazim and sephardim? You can't tell by looking? Unfortunately for you and galrat, Judaism and matrilineal descent and/or gerus, does NOT go by genetics. Also unfortunate for the stormfronters, or those with "jewish father" but not Jewish mother. Sorry.
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As can be seen here Rabbi Miller was in a class of his own http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx_NgHIBRt4
He seems quite knowledgeable about science. Very impressive.
.........
I will refrain from comment.
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That the Ethiopians don't know about Tefillin, Hebrew, Aramaic, do not possess the Sefer Torah, do not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos, observe the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and keep the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own, perform animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple and practiced a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes, making no ritual distinction between meat and milk, circumcised boys omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, they subject girls to clitoridectomy, which is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes, both operations on boys and girls being performed by women, practice monasticism, have a theology which is a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements, have no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation, allow the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent, do not know about Chalitzah, Get is unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent, making it impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them etc., give pause for thought that when Rabbi Miller called them "plain Ethiopian blacks", he's probably right!
Now, are you talking about the falasha Jews or about Falash-Mura?
He's talking about all black Jews. He wants them in ghettos or not in Israel at all. Did you not read any of this thread? And you have the gall to call me hostile?
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One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.
The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.
Rav Kook explains that slavery itself as an institution in society was an evil thing, but it was part of daily life in ancient times. It couldn't just be forbidden out of existence overnight. So rules about how slavery should work (including proper treatment of slaves and awarding them freedom in different circumstances etc) were put into place so that slavery as an institution would be phased out of society. That was actually part of the appeal of Judaism to many Roman nonJewish slaves. There is no question that the position of a slave is not a celebrated thing in the bible and that slavery itself is portrayed negatively. That Torah did not outlaw it altogether was a concession to man's nature and to current societal circumstances. But surely, it is not maintained/proliferated by the Torah system.
I think to say slavery will make a comeback is rather unbelievable. Maybe, MAYBE on individual basis if a person is in debt or can't provide for himself etc and he offers himself up as one, maybe in that case. But as an institution? Keep dreaming.
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I am sorry, but I cannot see how people are calling Galileerat a racist.
His tendentious and strong language, as well as his uncited ridiculous claims may be upsetting, but as shown from the quote put up earlier in regarding to Ethiopians, he is not racist against them.
Furthermore, doubting that Ethiopian Jews are not JEwish is by no means racist. Otherwise The Rebbe ZT"L, Elazar Shach ZT"L, Reb Moshe ZT"L, and Rabbi Elyashiv are all racists.
I do not sense any hostility on behalf of KWRBT towards Rabbi Miller. It seems that he is just fed up with Galileerat, and that should not be misconstrued for disrespecting a Rabbi. On the other hand, there was no reason for the "I refrain from comment", which does border on disrespect.
Lastly, I find it odd that there are people here claiming to be concerned with racism towards Ethiopian Jews (Whom I believe many are true Jews nowadays), when there is a thread called "THings a blakc person would never say", which is much more offensive to Ethiopian Jews, who are undoubtedly black.
Do you not realize how offensive that would be to an Ethiopian Jews (Some of who are very nationalistic)? They are black, whether you like it or not, and good luck attracting them towards Kahanism with threads like that.
When I was in Israel I knew some Ethiopians, and I still talk to a couple. When I told them to go visit the the Hebrew JTF forum, they replied to me that they were hurt by some of the language used pertaining to black people. Even though this pain was was somewhat unjustified (as the language referred to Obama YS"V), one must understand that as an Ethiopian Jew, when you have other Jews calling you [censored] ger or Kushon, it can be very painful, and you become sensitive to the opinions of fellow Jews, who you just want to be accepted by.
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I hear that.
I didn't make that thread, so I can't see why I can't be concerned for Ethiopians just because that thread exists on this site.
Anyway the people are not talking about "anyone with black skin." They are really talking about African Americans, or at least the losers out of them. I already have said that thread is too general to say that about all African Americans. Even so, it obviously has nothing to do with blacks in another country or from anywhere else, it is specific culturally to blacks in America and how some/many of them act. But yes, I can see why that stuff is really offensive to a black person who is really a good person, or a black Jew who wants acceptance from other Jews.
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At the same time, no one is making that thread in the name of Torah. Galileerat has done otherwise.
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Furthermore, doubting that Ethiopian Jews are not JEwish is by no means racist. Otherwise The Rebbe ZT"L, Elazar Shach ZT"L, Reb Moshe ZT"L, and Rabbi Elyashiv are all racists.
But Reb Moshe ZT"L or anyone else NEVER doubted after they went through a gerus for the sake of safek. He doubted BEFORE the safek gerus. I take exception to the "after-the-fact" questioning of these Jews' jewishness. Just like you say, they just want acceptance like anyone else. And when it's 'after-the-fact,' then I think racism is in play. Furthermore when a person comes up with wacky theories in order to establish "kushite-only towns with kushite mayors" I also think racism is in play or at least it's reasonable to think so.
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Furthermore, doubting that Ethiopian Jews are not JEwish is by no means racist. Otherwise The Rebbe ZT"L, Elazar Shach ZT"L, Reb Moshe ZT"L, and Rabbi Elyashiv are all racists.
But Reb Moshe ZT"L or anyone else NEVER doubted after they went through a gerus for the sake of safek. He doubted BEFORE the safek gerus. I take exception to the "after-the-fact" questioning of these Jews' jewishness. Just like you say, they just want acceptance like anyone else. And when it's 'after-the-fact,' then I think racism is in play. Furthermore when a person comes up with wacky theories in order to establish "kushite-only towns with kushite mayors" I also think racism is in play or at least it's reasonable to think so.
In regards to Galilleerat, I think you have to look at the possibility that he is not racist, and that much like all of his posts, it was simply his dementia that inspired this thread.
Not racist, just crazy.
As for the black thread, I completely understood it, which is why I thought it was funny(Maybe they should make a humour section), but my understanding of it is much more advanced than an Ethiopian Jew, who would simply look at it and feel upset because of it.
To make an analogous example. Imagine on a conservative forum there was a thread "things a jew would never say", and it was only making fun of leftist Liberal Jews. You obviously are not a member of that subgroup, but would you still not feel offended that they were attributing this behaviour to a person such as yourself, simply because you too, are Jewish?
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One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.
The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.
Rav Kook explains that slavery itself as an institution in society was an evil thing, but it was part of daily life in ancient times. It couldn't just be forbidden out of existence overnight. So rules about how slavery should work (including proper treatment of slaves and awarding them freedom in different circumstances etc) were put into place so that slavery as an institution would be phased out of society. That was actually part of the appeal of Judaism to many Roman nonJewish slaves. There is no question that the position of a slave is not a celebrated thing in the bible and that slavery itself is portrayed negatively. That Torah did not outlaw it altogether was a concession to man's nature and to current societal circumstances. But surely, it is not maintained/proliferated by the Torah system.
I think to say slavery will make a comeback is rather unbelievable. Maybe, MAYBE on individual basis if a person is in debt or can't provide for himself etc and he offers himself up as one, maybe in that case. But as an institution? Keep dreaming.
What exactly do the Torah or Talmud say about the evilness of slavery? Do they call it evil?
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Maybe he is a Spermfronter who is trying to argue that Jews view themselves as a "race" that dislikes other races.
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Maybe he is a Spermfronter who is trying to argue that Jews view themselves as a "race" that dislikes other races.
I think it is pretty obvious from his knowledge of Torah that this character is clearly a Jew and not a stormfronter. I looked at some of my favourited Kahanist videos on youtube, and noticed that they are from an account called Mifletzet, which is what you guys keep referring to him as. If that is the case, I can tell you that it seems to me this user is simply a Kahanist with a case of dementia.
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If that is the case, I can tell you that it seems to me this user is simply a Kahanist with a case of dementia.
I think you're right about that.
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One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.
The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.
Rav Kook explains that slavery itself as an institution in society was an evil thing, but it was part of daily life in ancient times. It couldn't just be forbidden out of existence overnight. So rules about how slavery should work (including proper treatment of slaves and awarding them freedom in different circumstances etc) were put into place so that slavery as an institution would be phased out of society. That was actually part of the appeal of Judaism to many Roman nonJewish slaves. There is no question that the position of a slave is not a celebrated thing in the bible and that slavery itself is portrayed negatively. That Torah did not outlaw it altogether was a concession to man's nature and to current societal circumstances. But surely, it is not maintained/proliferated by the Torah system.
I think to say slavery will make a comeback is rather unbelievable. Maybe, MAYBE on individual basis if a person is in debt or can't provide for himself etc and he offers himself up as one, maybe in that case. But as an institution? Keep dreaming.
What exactly do the Torah or Talmud say about the evilness of slavery? Do they call it evil?
Well I have to look into it to give you a better answer, but off the top of my head, one example would be that for a slave who is freed by his master, for him to then opt to remain a slave rather than go free (he doesn't want to provide for himself, has 'slave mentality' and is too used to serving someone else, etc), it is very frowned upon by the Torah. The person is considered wicked. There is more, but I am too ignorant to give you better off the top of my head.
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One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.
The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.
Rav Kook explains that slavery itself as an institution in society was an evil thing, but it was part of daily life in ancient times. It couldn't just be forbidden out of existence overnight. So rules about how slavery should work (including proper treatment of slaves and awarding them freedom in different circumstances etc) were put into place so that slavery as an institution would be phased out of society. That was actually part of the appeal of Judaism to many Roman nonJewish slaves. There is no question that the position of a slave is not a celebrated thing in the bible and that slavery itself is portrayed negatively. That Torah did not outlaw it altogether was a concession to man's nature and to current societal circumstances. But surely, it is not maintained/proliferated by the Torah system.
I think to say slavery will make a comeback is rather unbelievable. Maybe, MAYBE on individual basis if a person is in debt or can't provide for himself etc and he offers himself up as one, maybe in that case. But as an institution? Keep dreaming.
What exactly do the Torah or Talmud say about the evilness of slavery? Do they call it evil?
Well I have to look into it to give you a better answer, but off the top of my head, one example would be that for a slave who is freed by his master, for him to then opt to remain a slave rather than go free (he doesn't want to provide for himself, has 'slave mentality' and is too used to serving someone else, etc), it is very frowned upon by the Torah. The person is considered wicked. There is more, but I am too ignorant to give you better off the top of my head.
Yes, there is the command that after the seven years of service of a slave is up he can opt to remain a slave. This occurs if he has a wife and kid who are also slaves and he wants to stay with them {but they are gentiles}. The master is to nail the slaves ear to the doorpost as a sign that this man, whose ear heard the voice of Hashem at Mt Sinai, had decided to make a mortal man his master instead of making Hashem his master.
This too is from the Parasha of Misphatim which I will find the actual mitzvah in the Torah:
Shemot (Exodus) 21
1. And these are the ordinances that you shall set before them.
2. Should you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall work [for] six years, and in the seventh [year], he shall go out to freedom without charge.
3. If he comes [in] alone, he shall go out alone; if he is a married man, his wife shall go out with him.
4. If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.
5. But if the slave says, "I love my master, my wife, and my children. I will not go free,"
6. his master shall bring him to the judges, and he shall bring him to the door or to the doorpost, and his master shall bore his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever.
Rashis comments on this:
to the judges: Heb. אֶל-הָאֱלֹהִים, to the court to consult his sellers, for they sold him [the slave] to him [to his master]. — [From Mechilta]
to the door or to the doorpost: I might think that the doorpost is [a] qualified [place] on which to bore [the servant’s ear]. Therefore, Scripture says: “and you shall thrust it into his ear and into the door” (Deut. 15:17), [meaning] “into the door,” but not “into the doorpost.” What then does or to the doorpost mean? [The text is] comparing the door to the doorpost. Just as the doorpost is upright [i.e., attached to the house; otherwise it is not called a doorpost], so is the door upright. [A detached door may not be used for the ritual of ear boring.]-[From Mechilta, Kid. 22b]
and his master shall bore his ear: [I.e.,] the right [ear]. Or perhaps it means the left one? Therefore, the Torah states אֹזֶן “ear,” here and אֹזֶן [elsewhere] for [the purpose of making] a גְזֵרָה שָׁוָה, [which means two places having similar wording, which indicates that the rulings pertaining to one situation also apply to the other]. It is stated here: “and his master shall bore his ear,” and it is stated regarding the mezora [person with the disease of zara’ath]: “the cartilage of the right ear of the one who is becoming pure” (Lev. 14:14). Just as there the right [ear] is specified, here too the right [ear] is meant. Now, why was the ear chosen to be bored out of all the organs of the body? Rabban Jochanan ben Zakkai said: The ear that heard on Mount Sinai, “You shall not steal” (Exod. 20:13) and [then] went and stole, shall be bored. And if [the text is referring to] one who sold himself [into servitude, the reason is that] the ear that heard, “For the children of Israel are slaves to Me” (Lev. 25:55) and [then] went and acquired a master for himself, [this ear] shall be bored. Rabbi Shimon used to interpret this verse [in a beautiful manner] like a bundle of pearls [or a great amount of perfume in this way:]-why were the door and the doorpost singled out from all the fixtures in the house? The Holy One, blessed is He, said: The door and the doorpost were witnesses in Egypt when I passed over the lintel and the two doorposts, and I said, “For the children of Israel are slaves to Me; they are My slaves,” but [they are] not slaves to slaves, and [yet] this one went and acquired for himself a master-[his ear] shall be bored before them [for everyone to see]. — [From Kid. 22b]
and he shall serve him forever: Heb. לְעֹלָם, until the Jubilee year [the fiftieth year of the cycle]. Or perhaps it means literally forever, as its apparent meaning? Therefore, the Torah states [in reference to the Jubilee year]: “and each man to his family you shall return” (Lev. 25:10). [This] informs [us] that fifty years are called עֹלָם. But [this does] not [mean] that he must serve him [his master] the entire fifty years, but he must serve him until the Jubilee year, regardless of whether it is near or far off. — [From Mechilta, Kid. 15a]
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading_cdo/AID/15564/showrashi/true
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nice job muman, that's what I was thinking of... If you have more to add, please by all means.
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nice job muman, that's what I was thinking of... If you have more to add, please by all means.
This may be helpful:
http://www.torahsearch.com/page.cfm/2191
Halacha Overview - Slaves
Note: It should be stressed that the statements in a summary must not be interpreted as halachic rulings no matter how definitively they are worded. When such rulings are needed a qualified rabbi must be consulted.
73. Slaves - Avadim
During the period when the Jubilee year was in effect Jews could become slaves. A man could sell himself, as it says "And if your brother becomes poor and is sold to you"1; and the courts could sell a thief for six years if he was unable to pay for what he stole, as it says "If you buy a Hebrew slave [he shall work six years]",2 and it says "If your Hebrew brother is sold to you [he shall work six years for you]".3 He must not be sold publicly, as it says "They shall not be sold as slaves are sold".4 It is forbidden to give him excessive or degrading work to do, as it says "You shall not oppress him harshly",5 and it says "You shall not work him [at] slave's work; he shall be like a hired laborer, a resident, with you".6 If he sells himself to a non-Jew he should be redeemed and it is forbidden to allow the non-Jew to give him excessive work, as it says "[If your brother becomes poor and is sold to a stranger...] he shall have redemption... he shall not oppress him harshly before your eyes".7,a
A Jewish slave goes free at the end of the period of sale; but if he was sold by the courts and wishes to remain a slave he can do so after having his ear pierced [as it says "And if the slave says... `I will not go free' his master shall take him to court... and pierce his ear with an awl and he shall serve him forever",8 and it says "And if he says to you `I will not go out'... you shall take the awl and put it in his ear and in the door and he shall be your perpetual slave"].9 In any case, he goes free when the Jubilee year arrives or when his owner dies, as it says "He shall work with you until the Jubilee year",6 and it says "In this Jubilee year you shall go back each to his possessions",10 and it says "And if he shall not be redeemed thus he goes out in the Jubilee year".7 It is forbidden to let him (or a maidservant) go free empty-handed (except when he redeems himself); we are commanded to be generous to him, as it says "[And when you send him free from you] you shall not send him empty; you shall load him with gifts...".11,b
During that period a man could also sell his daughter (below the age of 12) as a maidservant [as it says "And if a man sells his daughter as a maidservant..."12]. She goes free at the end of six years or at the Jubilee or when her owner dies or when she reaches puberty, and if possible she should be redeemed [as it says "and redeemed her"].13 Preferably the owner should affiance her to himself or to his son [as it says "Her master who affianced her... and if he affiances her to his son..."13], upon which she is no longer a servant but is like any betrothed woman. It is forbidden to sell her or give her to anyone else, as it says "He shall have no power to sell her"13; nor can a male Jewish slave be sold.c
Non-Jews acquired as slaves must normally accept Judaism; thus when they are freed they are proselytes. [Non-Jewish slaves do not go free in the Jubilee year or at the death of the owner, as it says "But your slave and your maidservant that you have from the nations... they shall be an inherited possession to your sons after you; you shall enslave them perpetually".14 However, they go free if the owner does them a permanent, visible injury [as it says "If a man strikes his slave's eye or his maidservant's eye and destroys it he shall send him free on account of his eye; and if he knocks out his slave's tooth or his maidservant's tooth he shall send him free on account of his tooth"15]. If a man sells his slave to a non-Jew he must buy the slave back and free him. If a man sells his slave outside the land of Israel the purchasers must free him; and a man cannot take his slave outside the land of Israel without his consent. If a slave escapes and flees to the land of Israel his owner must free him and accept compensation, and there is a special prohibition against cheating such a freed slave, as it says "[You shall not turn a slave over to his master...] he shall dwell with you in your midst in the place that he chooses in one of your gates as he sees fit; you shall not cheat him".16,d
Sources: 1. Lev. 25:39 a. 1:1,4-7,10; 2:2 2. Ex. 21:2 b. 2:2-3,6; 3:6-7 (but see 2:12),14 3. Deut. 15:12 c. 4:1,4-5,7,10 4. Lev. 25:42 d. 5:4; 8:1,6,9-12 5. Lev. 25:43,46 6. Lev. 25:39-40 7. Lev. 25:47-53 8. Ex. 21:5-6 9. Deut. 15:16-17 10. Lev. 25:13 11. Deut. 15:13-14 12. Ex. 21:7 13. Ex. 21:8-9 14. Lev. 25:44-46 15. Ex. 21:26-27 16. Deut. 23:16-17
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It doesn't look as the Ethiopian schooling problem is going away
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1112034.html
That G-d has made peoples of different colors obviously means that they are not meant to overly mix, especially in schools. Just like boys and girls are not meant to mix:the genders have to go to separate schools.
In Ponovez yeshivah you find only Ashkenazim. In Porat Yosef yeshiva you find only Sefaradim. The Ethiopian children should be in an all-Ethiopian school, in an all-Ethiopian town. Trying to overcome the unovercomeable natural human reaction to different-colored people, including different colored Jews, is a recipe for trouble.The Israeli aping of the American societal and schools policy of "Thou Shalt Melt" has been an equal disaster.
When it comes to schooling and the perceived spiritual welfare of their children,Haredi school administrators won't back down, even for money.
"Can the Ethiopian change the color of his skin?" (Yirmiya 13:23). That the 12 Tribes and the gerim were each allocated different territories and lived apart in Israel shows that 'segregation' is a Torah ideal.
You who went to school in the US: did you like being forced cheek and jowl with Blacks?! You who went to school in the UK: did you like sitting next to Pakis?!
As that Rabbi Avigdor Miller said: "This matter of complexion is more important than is usually understood....Moshe's children were not made Cohanim...dark skinned Cohanim would be rejected by the law requiring unblemished men....the principle of 'racism' is one of the foundations..."
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6589/8312009121549pm.th.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/8312009121549pm.jpg/)
(http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D030909/Ethi.jpg)
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wonga66 are you sure you are not the former member galrat ? You sure post the same racist junk he did.
In Ponovez yeshivah you find only Ashkenazim. In Porat Yosef yeshiva you find only Sefaradim. The Ethiopian children should be in an all-Ethiopian school, in an all-Ethiopian town. Trying to overcome the unovercomeable natural human reaction to different-colored people, including different colored Jews, is a recipe for trouble.The Israeli aping of the American societal and schools policy of "Thou Shalt Melt" has been an equal disaster.
There are (or at least used to be) lots of Sefaradim in Litvak Yeshivas, and historically, there was no separation such as you suggest. And to suggest that Ethiopians live in separated towns is just crazy. You are hopelessly racist and you have a problem controlling yourself. So take care of your problems and leave us and the Ethiopian Jews alone.
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That G-d has made peoples of different colors obviously means that they are not meant to overly mix, especially in schools.
Really? LOL. Gee because I don't think one has anything to do with the other. Why don't you ever use logic?
Not sure what you conclude that from. (sounds like wishful thinking on your part)
Here's a better idea for you. Since G-d made peoples of different colors, obviously that means He wanted hateful people like you to learn to live with people who look differently and not to despise them. I don't REALLY presume to know the meaning of why G-d made different skin colors, but I'm giving you another suggestion since you seem so convinced that you do know why.
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In Ponovez yeshivah you find only Ashkenazim.
Not really. Shows how out of touch you are. More and more haredi (even shas affiliated) sephardim are trying to learn in Ashkenazi yeshivoth which they see as the elite institutions. More and more sefardim have come to see the ashkenazi talmud learning style as the superior method, for better or worse. And so each of these "ashkenazi" schools tries to keep its number of Sephardim limited, but they do let in a percent, and many apply there.
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What about non-Hebrew slaves? Was there also a 7-year limit for them?
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Chayim calls the Shas party "the most unbelievably evil party in Israel".
Shas and its Erev Zeir leader Ovadiya "Kesef" Yosef "Yusef" are behind the latest push to Negrify (= "schvartztify") Eretz Yisroel with yet more Hamites
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135589
The only ones actually happy about more Blacks arriving in Israel is Shas & Israeli leftists & "kiss black tochuss" liberals.
Entire Israeli neighbourhoods are being ruined by this endless stream of Blacks.
Their ultimate goal is to have 1 million Ethiopics living in israel.
(http://www.christrips.com/ethiopiakids2004/kids.jpg)
"There never was such a thing as 'Black Jews': they are plain Ethiopian gentile Blacks. The whole thing is sheker v'kozov!" (Rabbi Miller).
The only hope is that the giyur l'chumro these Falshmura go through rubs off on them, and that they become loyal Right-Wingers.
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It doesn't look as the Ethiopian schooling problem is going away
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1112034.html
That G-d has made peoples of different colors obviously means that they are not meant to overly mix, especially in schools.
You made this up. It's a nonsequitor. What does one thing have to do with another? That's like saying since God made different continents, obviously people weren't supposed to move from one continent to another. No, not obviously. In fact, that is silly and completely invented.
You are drawing an improper conclusion based on your own predetermined opinion about dark skinned people. You cherry pick from Rav Miller's hashkafa lectures to support your own predetermined opinion, but it is no support.
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In Ponovez yeshivah you find only Ashkenazim.
In haredi ashkenazi yeshivas TODAY, they take a percentage of sephardic talmidim. So what you are saying is ignorant.
When it comes to schooling and the perceived spiritual welfare of their children,Haredi school administrators won't back down, even for money.
I highly challenge the emphasized "even for money" part. You are again completely making things up. Proof? Cite something? Any indication this is true? NO. Money makes the haredi school system go round. Money makes the haredi political world go round. Don't obfuscate for the sake of your racial agenda.
"Can the Ethiopian change the color of his skin?" (Yirmiya 13:23). That the 12 Tribes and the gerim were each allocated different territories and lived apart in Israel shows that 'segregation' is a Torah ideal.
Again, "am haaratzut" (ignorance) passed off under the guise of "Torah." There was no halacha forbidding individual members of tribes to mix into other tribes or to navigate or settle in other areas or to intermarry. And we see that not only it was not forbidden, but it happened too.
You who went to school in the US: did you like being forced cheek and jowl with Blacks?! You who went to school in the UK: did you like sitting next to Pakis?!
How can you compare these things? You have such a sick and twisted mind. You are ready to compare a group of Jews having dark skin to the ghetto-blacks of America or to Pakistani muslim animals!? Chas veshalom. You are very sick and twisted that you see Jewish members of the Jewish nation as on equal footing to our enemies (Paki muzlims) and corrupt-culture-american blacks.
And at the same time that you post pictures of Ethiopian Jews with women dressed in tzniut garb and the kid wearing a kipa. You are such a self-hating bigot, it's unbelievable.
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wonga66 are you sure you are not the former member galrat ? You sure post the same racist junk he did.
He is the same guy. He is also miflezet and fleschette. That he has denied this shows he is a brazen faced liar. Any idiot could see that it's the same guy, and yet he expects us to believe otherwise when he is in denial.
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"There never was such a thing as 'Black Jews': they are plain Ethiopian gentile Blacks. The whole thing is sheker v'kozov!" (Rabbi Miller).
That's not what Rabbi Moshe Feinstein or the leading poskim said. In halacha, do we go by poskim or by someone who gives over hashkafa shmuz and somebody who years later cherry picks and quotes it? I rest my case. You are out of your league and a blatant propagandist. Give it a rest already.
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Spreading these agrarian Ethiopics all over Israel is a huge social mistake. They should all be put in one large new 150,000 person all-Ethiopian town in Yesha, with their own style of huts, a Falasha mayor, a Falasha poilce chief etc. They will be happy there.
Instead they are miserable, irked, angry, seething, envious, no hopers, unemployed, unemployable, resentful, begrudged and becoming mentally ill in little appartments in Lod, Safed, Mevasseret Zion, Emek Hagalil, Ashdod, Sderot etc surrounded by pale-faced Russians and Ukranians, of even more dubious Jewish origin!
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/31d0e5dc20.jpg)
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You are a true hater of all Jews wonga666 and I hope that you do teshuva before you die... My opinion of you is very, very low and I am ashamed that there are people like you who consider themselves Jewish {I don't count you among the Jews because you exhibit a very unJewish trait}.... If you are really Jewish there is always hope for you... But everything which comes from your mouth and your fingers is hatred, divisive, and evil...
I am a Jew of Ukrainian origin and we are as Jewish, if not more Jewish, than any other Jew... I seriously doubt your lineage..
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I am not referring to Ukrainian Jews.
I am referring to Ukrainian gentiles, and the non-Jewish 50%+ of immigrants from the former USSR.
A considerable % of them have no Jewish pedigree whatsoever ie not even one Jewish great grandfather.
Under a Kahanist government, conversion laws would be watertight: only a Jew (ie born of a Jewish mother) or who converted to Judaism according to Halacha would be allowed in under the Kahanist Revised Law of Return.
It is a shame that R.Kahane died before the 1 million immigrants came over from the USSR in 1991.
He would have had a lot to say. I suspect that he would have won many of them over, including the goyim among them, to his camp and to True Judaism.
Instead all they have to vote for is that Moldavian piece of drek, Yvette Lieberman!
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Spreading these agrarian Ethiopics all over Israel is a huge social mistake. They should all be put in one large new 150,000 person all-Ethiopian town in Yesha, with their own style of huts, a Falasha mayor, a Falasha poilce chief etc. They will be happy there.
Instead they are miserable, irked, angry, seething, envious, no hopers, unemployed, unemployable, resentful, begrudged and becoming mentally ill in little appartments in Lod, Safed, Mevasseret Zion, Emek Hagalil, Ashdod, Sderot etc surrounded by pale-faced Russians and Ukranians, of even more dubious Jewish origin!
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/31d0e5dc20.jpg)
My friend teaches them at school. It's a big problem - they are undisciplined and less intelligent than other students. The integrated education doesn't work.
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I am not referring to Ukrainian Jews.
I am referring to Ukrainian gentiles, and the non-Jewish 50%+ of immigrants from the former USSR.
A considerable % of them have no Jewish pedigree whatsoever ie not even one Jewish great grandfather.
Under a Kahanist government, conversion laws would be watertight: only a Jew (ie born of a Jewish mother) or who converted to Judaism according to Halacha would be allowed in under the Kahanist Revised Law of Return.
It is a shame that R.Kahane died before the 1 million immigrants came over from the USSR in 1991.
He would have had a lot to say. I suspect that he would have won many of them over, including the goyim among them, to his camp and to True Judaism.
Instead all they have to vote for is that Moldavian piece of drek, Yvette Lieberman!
I am sorry for the harsh words... I agree that immigration from the former Soviet Union has led to a lot of non-Jews immigrating and some even join neonazi gangs. This is a real problem...
But there are real Ukranian Jews.... When my family emigrated from Ukraine in the 1900s there was tremendous oppression of the Jews, especially in Uman where my family came from. 50,000 Jews were massacred in one day... I have looked at my family tree and it is entirely Jewish until this generation.
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The Hamites are descendants of Ham. There is a Torah kloloh on all of them. If they fulfil their tafkid of being subservient assistants to the Shemites and Japhetites, all is well.
But they are not meant to be "equals" or have equal rights.
And that includes all Hamites ie Africans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans etc etc.
The Tzemach Tzedek states that Hamites will not exist in the Messianic Era.
Racism is against the Torah.
But racialism (which is not the same) is a foundation of Torah!
A Moreh said that the curse only apllied to Canaan himself and must not be used to hate or discrimnate Blacks or Asians. Regarding Ethiopian Jews, I don't know if they are real Israelites or not, but.... what do you prefer? A tiny group of Yehudim safek, or millions of Arabs detrmined to destroy Israel who paradoxiaclly have Israeli citizenship. I strongly respect Ethiopian Jews, Karaites, Samaritans and Black Jews. No mmatter if they are all Jews or not, what it matters is that they want to be in Israel as a Jewish State.
This comments do nothing but harming Israel. We have already the Arabs and some Western as enemies, why insulting Africans and Asians? Antisemitism is nearly unknown in Asia. And most Africans don't even know that Jews exist.
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Under a Kahanist government, conversion laws would be watertight: only a Jew (ie born of a Jewish mother) or who converted to Judaism according to Halacha would be allowed in under the Kahanist Revised Law of Return.
But the Ethiopians did convert l'humra according to halacha, and you still want them herded into ghettoes. I don't think you are the person to speak for what a Kahanist govt would or would not do.
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The Falashmura of the 2000s, who had the Halachic status of goyim, have converted l'chumra and undergo Orthodox courses in Torah and mitzva observance. Whether most of them will live up to that giyur is yet to be seen.
Most of the Falashas of the 80s, as per R.Moshe Feinstein, had the status of sofek yehudi (which nevertheless requires an "easy conversion"), unfortunately did not convert, not even giyur l'kula, due to their being incited by infernal Israeli leftists, plus R.Ovadiya Yosef under political & financial pressure backing down that the Falashas didn't need require any geirus at all, contrary to the Ashkenazic poskim.
Most Falashas from the 80s were given no education in Torah and mitzva observance, and many took on the worst of Israeli society, becoming criminals, jail inmates and druggies.
The death rate among Israeli Ethiopians is high, especially from obesity and diabetes. The Israeli diet is not good for them, them arriving nice and lean, and quickly becoming obese, which their small frames cannot take.
This is not to detract that they can make good soldiers, especially in the Mishmar Gevul. Sometimes too good, as they are very obedient, even obeying bad orders. Many Ethiopian Black troops were ruthless in the front line during the Gaza Deportation, and in more recent expulsions.
The murder rate of Ethiopian wives by Ethiopian husbands is inordinate. But I know several Anglo mitnachlim in Yesha who are very happy with their quiet and compliant husband-worshipping Falashmura wives. If you want an Ethiopian wife, get one as soon as possible after they arrive at the airport, before she becomes ruined by Israeli society!
Come to think of it, a good Ethiopian girl could be perfect for our Chayim, when B"H he comes to Israel!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3176/2938504787_c58e6fc70f_m.jpg)
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Chaim said before he isn't attracted to Black women and only loves them as his Sisters.
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Listen everyone who is involved in this thread!
It is Elul, the month of preparation for the High Holidays. We should not be fighting between ourselves. If this galilerat is really Jewish let him show it in the way he behaves. A Jew doesnt create machlokes like this right before the day of Judgment. I ask that all the Jews please attempt to learn the laws of Teshuva and to implement them.
My current signature line relates the mitzvah of returning lost items. I have heard an interpretation of this law to mean that we should always help return the lost soul of a Jew to the path of Torah. I ask that you look into Torah and attempt to rise to the level which Moshe inspired our forefathers, to rise against the inclination of evil, the path of hatred and disrespect.
Every Jewish neshama is important to the Jewish nation. While we can argue about erev rav and whether certain converts are sincere in their conversions, or whether their conversion was 'kosher' enough for us... It will not bring about the desired goal of bringing Moshiach. When it comes to rebuke it must be said lovingly and with good intention.
Please have respect for the sages of Israel and the wisdom which our scholars have passed to us. Most hold the Chofetz Chaim to be very brilliant regarding the mitzvahs of Ahavas Yisroel and the negativity associated with Lashon Hara. Every High Holiday period I read the Chofetz Chaims Daily companion to help me use my power of speech for the purpose of goodness.
My kevannah is with all who sincerely want to see the world of Moshiach in our days.
-I just grabbed, "The Concise Book of Mitzvoth" of my shelf... ;)