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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 12:28:49 PM

Title: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 12:28:49 PM: "David Ben Gurion ( (Polish born Israeli Statesman and Prime Minister (1948-53, 1955-63). Chief architect of the state of Israel and revered as Father of the Nation, 1886-1973) ) said in 1956 :

'' Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army ''"

Can someone please be kind and explain to me what exactly have happened after the world war 2, and in years 1948-60's, and regarding bulfor's agreement? Thanks
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Harzel on September 13, 2009, 12:51:14 PM: It is Ben Gurion tying to see things from an Arab point of view. Socialist Atheist Jews like Ben Gurion did believe that Jews are rightfully returning to their homeland. So in this quote Ben Gurion explains why he sees no chance to a peaceful settlement with the Arabs because the Arab believe that we are robbers with no claim whatsoever to the holyland.

The leftist of the present no only try to understand the Arab position as Ben Gurion dis, they actually, to a varied degree, adopt the Arab view that Jews are illegal robbers of the holy land.

Your last question makes little sense to me. Balfur's declaration is not an agreement, it is a statement by Britain that acknowledges the Jewish right for their homeland Eretz Israel. The Brits had betrayed this declaration as early as 1922.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 13, 2009, 02:02:39 PM: Ben Gurion understood that the Arabs considered it an "offense" to have Jews live in the land of Israel, and he knew they would fight and attack over it. So he knew that we had no choice but to be strong in the face of the Arabs' terror. He never once questioned our justification to be there. He was saying this from the Arabs' perspective, they don't care what international agreements there have been, or what Jewish history there is in this place, the arab nationalists hate Jews and they will fight us. He was honest about that threat.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 03:20:43 PM: Could someone please honestly tell me how jews become majority in israel, starting from 1948? ofcourse I know about immigration, but was there any unjustified killing/force kicking people out of their homes? only honest and direct answers please.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: The One and Only Mo on September 13, 2009, 04:06:14 PM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 03:20:43 PM
Could someone please honestly tell me how jews become majority in israel, starting from 1948? ofcourse I know about immigration, but was there any unjustified killing/force kicking people out of their homes? only honest and direct answers please.

The Jews put their heads together and decided what needed to be done.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Lisa on September 13, 2009, 04:20:46 PM: Madmarv, the Arab Muslims in Israel were attacking and killing Jews long before Israel came into being. Google the Hebron pogrom of 1929. So if there were Arab Muslims that were thrown out by Jews, it was probably because of attacks against Jews from the vicinity.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Boyana on September 13, 2009, 04:23:54 PM: SERBS WILL RETURN TO SERBIAN KOSOVO ONE DAY
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 04:40:35 PM: Thank you lisa for the link
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Harzel on September 13, 2009, 04:55:51 PM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 03:20:43 PM
Could someone please honestly tell me how jews become majority in israel, starting from 1948? ofcourse I know about immigration, but was there any unjustified killing/force kicking people out of their homes? only honest and direct answers please.
But why start from 1948 ? You are a chritian, don't you read the bible ? It would tell you exactly how we became the majority in the holy land.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 13, 2009, 05:37:36 PM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 03:20:43 PM
Could someone please honestly tell me how jews become majority in israel, starting from 1948? ofcourse I know about immigration, but was there any unjustified killing/force kicking people out of their homes? only honest and direct answers please.

After the Arabs declared war, there were battles in many locations throughout the land of Israel, and thank God in some of them Israel was very successful, and arabs fled when they lost, just like in places where the Jews lost, they also had casualties and people/army units fleeing. We had enough victories to establish a state.

But well before that, the land "earmarked" for Jewish state by the UN was already majority Jewish if I am not mistaken. They purposely chose areas that were heavily populated by Jews to be incorporated into the Jewish state. Not that that's relevant, but just to paint a full picture. One reason I say that's not relevant is because there would have been millions of Jews in Israel if they had been allowed to immigrate openly and honestly by the British, the arabs, and Europeans. Instead, they closed off immigration, while Arabs were allowed to flood in to their heart's content. Meanwhile millions of Jews were slaughtered in Europe.
But another reason I say it's irrelevant is because: Who cares what the UN says or what #'s were/are? The land belongs to the Jewish people, look at your Bible.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 12:18:21 PM: "Who cares what the UN says or what #'s were/are? The land belongs to the Jewish people, look at your Bible"

That's true, but not everyone believe in the bible, those muslims, hindu, atheists, secularists, they don't look in the bible and say "Hey, according to the bible, we must do this, and that, give this land to those, this land to these" and etc etc ...
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 14, 2009, 01:54:33 PM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 12:18:21 PM
"Who cares what the UN says or what #'s were/are? The land belongs to the Jewish people, look at your Bible"

That's true, but not everyone believe in the bible, those muslims... don't look in the bible and say "Hey, according to the bible, we must do this, and that, give this land to those, this land to these" and etc etc ...

Right, they look in their Koran. And that is precisely the problem.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Yochai on September 14, 2009, 01:56:20 PM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 12:18:21 PM
"Who cares what the UN says or what #'s were/are? The land belongs to the Jewish people, look at your Bible"

That's true, but not everyone believe in the bible, those muslims, hindu, atheists, secularists, they don't look in the bible and say "Hey, according to the bible, we must do this, and that, give this land to those, this land to these" and etc etc ...

If they do not believe that, then they could look to international law, which states that the entire land of the Palestinian Mandate is to be given to the Jews, and that includes modern-day Jordan.
The League of Nations agreed to this, and this is international law.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 14, 2009, 02:00:46 PM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 12:18:21 PM
"Hey, according to the bible, we must do this, and that, give this land to those, this land to these"

And that's also why they tried to slaugher all the Jews who either immigrated to Israel or wanted to immigrate there? Because they didn't want to be "bossed around" by the Bible? Or was it something else?
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 14, 2009, 03:13:32 PM: You have to remember that Ben Gurion was an extreme leftist (Marxist, actually) who wanted to make Israel into a Marxist society. That was his first and foremost concern, not the security of the Jewish people.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on September 14, 2009, 03:14:30 PM: Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 13, 2009, 02:02:39 PM
Ben Gurion understood that the Arabs considered it an "offense" to have Jews live in the land of Israel, and he knew they would fight and attack over it. So he knew that we had no choice but to be strong in the face of the Arabs' terror. He never once questioned our justification to be there. He was saying this from the Arabs' perspective, they don't care what international agreements there have been, or what Jewish history there is in this place, the arab nationalists hate Jews and they will fight us. He was honest about that threat.
Only in that he had to. The Arabs didn't know how to do taqqiyah yet and were openly in a state of war with Israel. If any of them had offered him a "peace" treaty, he would have leapt at the chance.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 05:51:24 PM: Quote from: Yochai on September 14, 2009, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 12:18:21 PM
"Who cares what the UN says or what #'s were/are? The land belongs to the Jewish people, look at your Bible"

That's true, but not everyone believe in the bible, those muslims, hindu, atheists, secularists, they don't look in the bible and say "Hey, according to the bible, we must do this, and that, give this land to those, this land to these" and etc etc ...

If they do not believe that, then they could look to international law, which states that the entire land of the Palestinian Mandate is to be given to the Jews, and that includes modern-day Jordan.
The League of Nations agreed to this, and this is international law.

Why or on what basis did the international law stated that?
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 14, 2009, 07:25:26 PM: Quote from: Bonesfan on September 14, 2009, 03:14:30 PM
Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 13, 2009, 02:02:39 PM
Ben Gurion understood that the Arabs considered it an "offense" to have Jews live in the land of Israel, and he knew they would fight and attack over it. So he knew that we had no choice but to be strong in the face of the Arabs' terror. He never once questioned our justification to be there. He was saying this from the Arabs' perspective, they don't care what international agreements there have been, or what Jewish history there is in this place, the arab nationalists hate Jews and they will fight us. He was honest about that threat.
Only in that he had to. The Arabs didn't know how to do taqqiyah yet and were openly in a state of war with Israel. If any of them had offered him a "peace" treaty, he would have leapt at the chance.

Yes he did do that with the "ceasefire agreements" too.

Also I should point out that he wasn't so honest about it at the beginning. It was Jabotinsky who first stressed the need for Jewish self defense in the Yishuv (early Jewish settlements in Israel) against the constant attacks of Arabs. The leftist/socialist faction led by Ben Gurion (pretty sure he was already in charge at that point but could be wrong) was against Jewish self defense or formation of a Jewish army or fighting force, on the grounds that the British might not like that, and the local Turks are good enough protection. (Jabotinsky's faction asserted the need for a Jewish army precisely because often relying on the local Turks/Bedouins for protection of developing settlements/farms proved to be futile and unreliable and caused much trauma to the developing Jewish community).

Eventually even the leftists were swayed by the growing violence/helplessness and desires of the people for defense, and the founding of the Haganah reflects that.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 14, 2009, 07:26:19 PM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 05:51:24 PM
Quote from: Yochai on September 14, 2009, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 12:18:21 PM
"Who cares what the UN says or what #'s were/are? The land belongs to the Jewish people, look at your Bible"

That's true, but not everyone believe in the bible, those muslims, hindu, atheists, secularists, they don't look in the bible and say "Hey, according to the bible, we must do this, and that, give this land to those, this land to these" and etc etc ...

If they do not believe that, then they could look to international law, which states that the entire land of the Palestinian Mandate is to be given to the Jews, and that includes modern-day Jordan.
The League of Nations agreed to this, and this is international law.

Why or on what basis did the international law stated that?

The League of Nations charter says it explicitly. It incorporated the Balfour declaration in its explanation of British control over "Palestine" Mandate.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 14, 2009, 07:46:24 PM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 05:51:24 PM
Quote from: Yochai on September 14, 2009, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 12:18:21 PM
"Who cares what the UN says or what #'s were/are? The land belongs to the Jewish people, look at your Bible"

That's true, but not everyone believe in the bible, those muslims, hindu, atheists, secularists, they don't look in the bible and say "Hey, according to the bible, we must do this, and that, give this land to those, this land to these" and etc etc ...

If they do not believe that, then they could look to international law, which states that the entire land of the Palestinian Mandate is to be given to the Jews, and that includes modern-day Jordan.
The League of Nations agreed to this, and this is international law.

Why or on what basis did the international law stated that?

answered above.

But you also have to understand, that the Jewish people is not going to give up its homeland, what is our ancestral homeland and has been from time immemorial in the history of the Jewish people, we are not going to let "international law" dictate to us whether we do or do not have a homeland, and whether our actual homeland is or isn't ours. We have always strived to return home. And no other country in the world, at least no right-thinking place, is going to give up their national aspirations based on a piece of paper signed by 'world leaders' saying you can't be here, or you can be there.

That is why we can understand the Arabs, even if their national vision is motivated by Jew-hatred. Once that vision exists, most normal people in the world are not just going to lie down and give it up. (that was kind of Ben Gurion's point in his statement). If it's really their sincere vision and not just an outlet/excuse for Jew-hatred and murderous tendencies is up for debate, and the facts don't help such a claim.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Yochai on September 14, 2009, 09:21:15 PM: Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 14, 2009, 07:26:19 PM
Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 05:51:24 PM
Quote from: Yochai on September 14, 2009, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: Madmarv on September 14, 2009, 12:18:21 PM
"Who cares what the UN says or what #'s were/are? The land belongs to the Jewish people, look at your Bible"

That's true, but not everyone believe in the bible, those muslims, hindu, atheists, secularists, they don't look in the bible and say "Hey, according to the bible, we must do this, and that, give this land to those, this land to these" and etc etc ...

If they do not believe that, then they could look to international law, which states that the entire land of the Palestinian Mandate is to be given to the Jews, and that includes modern-day Jordan.
The League of Nations agreed to this, and this is international law.

Why or on what basis did the international law stated that?

The League of Nations charter says it explicitly. It incorporated the Balfour declaration in its explanation of British control over "Palestine" Mandate.

Exactly. As well, agreements from the League of Nations were to stay in the body of international law, as stated by the UN.
Also, per Resolution 181, a Jewish state was to be created in the borders of Palestine(albeit with suicide borders). From this a war broke out, and Israel conquered the land in a self-defensive war so as to prevent this from happening again in the future.
As a result, the UN tried to retroactively state that this conquest was not an admissible right to the land, when in fact any related law only pertain to the AGGRESSOR in the conflict, not the defender.

Lastly, I could not care less about International Law, as I defer to a higher authority. Also, I do not even believe in International LAw as legitimate, and you can find many lawyers who will agree with this, and have written at length about this.
Also, ever since 1967, "International Law" has consisted of laws made specifically about Israel, and specifically against Israel. For example, the UN passed a resolution stating that Zionism is Racism. If these people are the archtiects of this "Law", it means less than the paper it is written on.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Hyades on September 15, 2009, 03:49:41 AM: Quote from: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 03:20:43 PM
Could someone please honestly tell me how jews become majority in israel, starting from 1948? ofcourse I know about immigration, but was there any unjustified killing/force kicking people out of their homes? only honest and direct answers please.

The Jewish immigration had started much earlier than that. "Palestine" was still an Ottoman province when Jews moved there. But they had no rights at all - as the Christians had no rights either. They paid their Jizya and had to pray at home since most churches were shut down and synagogues were knocked down, burnt or that old that they collapsed themselves.
The islamic law did not allow the construction or renovation of churches and synagogues.
When it became a British colony, immigration accelerated somewhat. After WWII, the UN decided to devide "Palestine" into a Jewish and an Arab state. Brits tried to ban Jewish immigration but they did not succeed! They took some strange frontiers that in some cases did not respect the majorities and minorities and thus mostly Arab regions were given to Jews and vice versa. The Jews agreed - as they had agreed to anything that would make an own a reality.
And when in 1948 the State of Israel was proclaimed, Egypt, Jordan and later on Syria and Saudi-Arabia declared war on Israel and bombed Tel Aviv still before the independence speech was terminated. About 1 million Jews had to leave Muslim countries in order to survive the horrible porgroms they were experiencing - it was comparable to the pogroms done before by Nazis (burning synagogues, slaying Jews without any need for the murderer to justify). The Arabs tried to stop Jews from leaving since the more Jews there are in Israel, the bigger the chance for Israel to survive. But entire Jewish populations died out in most countries. Iraq had more than 100,000 Jews before and today is about to 100.
Most Jews from Arab countries saw their chance to live in a country that was democratic and granting them all rights, where there was no discrimination and where they could be free and full citizens.
Today there are about 1.2 million Arabs inside Israel and those who live in refugee camps mostly left due to the fear to live under Jewish rule. There were 3 cases where Arabs were really driven away by Israeli soldiers because they didn't want to surrender. The expansion of Israel was due to ARAB attacks and DEFENSE! Not due to aggression. When Sinai was occupied, it was the consquence of ARAB AGGRESSION and Israeli defense. The fairy tale of ethnic cleanings are pure propaganda. Many "Palestinians" simply thought they would be better off in other Arab countries than under Jewish rule. But until today their Arab "brothers" do not give them citizenship and leave them in miserable refugee camps in order to "show the world the cruelty of Israeli aggression" and to hold up the pressure against Israel. Without refugees and with all Palestinians being naturalized Egyptians, Saudis or Jordanians, the pressure on Israel would fade! This is an evil, perverse and dirty game that the Arab governments play on the shoulders of immigrants from Israel who thought they could live there in peace as Arabs. There is everything given to integrate them into the Arab societies (language, religion etc.) - but they don't for selfish reasons!
Until today the whole story is distorted and that propaganda machine is working very well!
If Israel wanted to make a genocide, there would have been one a long time ago. Israel has all means to do so. If Hamas or Fatah had the same means as Israel, all Israelis would have already been killed - even the Arabs with Israelis citizenship who are considered traitors.
Those who want to "clean up" are the Muslims themselves: They don't want to have Jewish settlements in the West Bank what measn they don't want to live WITH the Jews rather than along side with them (IF!). Hamas has installed crucifixion of Christians that means that after the Jews left Gaza, the only ones to wipe out are the Christians... Got their strategy?
Even you as an Arab would become a victim of Muslim slaughter if they succeeded to destroy Israel.
Why do you think there are so many Arab Christians who left for Latin America long before Israel was founded? They faced severe discrimination and repeadly were re-settled and re-re-settled by Turkish and Arab invaders. Those who opposed to be resetteld elswehere we killed or expelled!
You as an Arab Christian should be glad to have Israel. Even if Hebrew is not your language, at least Israel respects your Christian religion and has no interst in killing you as Muslim Arabs do - even being ethnically your brothers!
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on September 15, 2009, 09:36:01 AM: Quote from: Hyades on September 15, 2009, 03:49:41 AM
Quote from: Madmarv on September 13, 2009, 03:20:43 PM
Could someone please honestly tell me how jews become majority in israel, starting from 1948? ofcourse I know about immigration, but was there any unjustified ...etc

No. The unjustified killing was done by the Arabs. First there were terrorist attacks by Egyptians, Syrians and others, across borders, then the PLO developed and took over the mantle of unjustified murders of Jews. It culminated in 67 war. And of course didn't stop to the present day.
Title: Re: What's the meaning of this
Post by: Debbie Shafer on September 15, 2009, 09:39:42 AM: Good Question, I would second this question. Maybe Chaim can give us some historical info.