JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 02:50:41 PM
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A Temani cantor reads the first 5 verses of Bereishith in Hebrew, Aramaic (Targum Onqelus) and Arabic (Saadia Gaon’s Tafsir) –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGud51KOxWs
This is how the Torah should be read. The Sefer Yetsirah says there are only 7 Hebrew letters with 2 pronounciations the BeGeD KaPoReT. Unfortunately most Jews pronounce the letter Waw like it’s an undotted Bet, they pronounce Het like its an undotted Kaf and they pronounce Qof like it’s a dotted Kaf and they make no distinction between a dotted and undotted Taw. The Temani are the only Jews who have preserved the correct pronunciation.
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Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/vol3/0875.html
member of Torah Forum wrote:
<<Scientifically and linguistically it's almost certain that Sephardic
pronounciation is closer to the original ancient Hebrew than Ashkenazic
Hebrew.>>
This assumes that the Israeli version of Sepharadit is the same as the
Sepharadi version. It is not; furthermore there are definitely some
aspects of Ashkenazi pronunciation that are more correct than even the
authentic Sepharadi way. The "true" pronunciation lies somewhere in
between. I will not speculate at what point on the continuum.
>Halachically speaking, if a person believes that it's more correct to
>pronounce the Sephardic pronounciation, perhaps he should adopt that way.
This is correct and your citation from Rav Soloveitchik and other Gedolim
bears this out - only if you are sure that your adopted version is more
correct than the one you are leaving behind. Otherwise "al titosh toras
imecha" ('don't reject the teachings of your Mother' - in other words -
'stick to your tradition') is an important rule.
<<On the other hand, there are many different Ashkenazic pronounciations.>>
As there are different Sepharadi pronunciations.
Gershon
[email protected]
http://pw2.netcom.com/~gdubin/lcs.htm
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http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/print.asp?id=3240
Hebrew pronunciation
Rabbi Elchanan Lewis
Question:
I’ve been wondering for a long time about the correct accent to use when speaking hebrew and leining etc. on the on hand Ashkenaz differentiates between Patach and Kamatz etc. which would appear to be better but then I heard the Sefaradi is better because there are contraditions in certain songs with the Ashkenaz one and Sefaradi is used as speaking Hebrew in Israel and its more authentic....so which one is the best or most correct? I know this isn’t the most important aspect about davening etc. but I learnt that the Vilna Gaon was very particular about speaking properly and correctly and I feel that it would help me and that it is important to me to be able to speak in the best way possible.
Answer:
The Poskim can't reach an agreement on what is the best and most correct pronunciation (it seems the Yemenite Jews have the most accurate version), all however agree that one should not change his family tradition.
(See Igrot Moshe OC 3 5, Yabia Omer 6 11, Heichal Yitzchak OC 3)
One should also note that an attempt to change a long practiced pronunciation may cause a Kavanah distraction which by all means is more important than the pronunciation itself.
Personally I have no desire to change my pronunciation. Everyone understands what I say and it is the tradition of my family, which all Rabbis agree is the best minhag to keep...
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The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.
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Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/vol3/0875.html
member of Torah Forum wrote:
<<Scientifically and linguistically it's almost certain that Sefardic
pronounciation is closer to the original ancient Hebrew than Ashkenazic
Hebrew.>>
This assumes that the Israeli version of Sepharadit is the same as the
Sepharadi version. It is not; furthermore there are definitely some
aspects of Ashkenazi pronunciation that are more correct than even the
authentic Sepharadi way. The "true" pronunciation lies somewhere in
between. I will not speculate at what point on the continuum.
>Halachically speaking, if a person believes that it's more correct to
>pronounce the Sefardic pronounciation, perhaps he should adopt that way.
This is correct and your citation from Rav Soloveitchik and other Gedolim
bears this out - only if you are sure that your adopted version is more
correct than the one you are leaving behind. Otherwise "al titosh toras
imecha" ('don't reject the teachings of your Mother' - in other words -
'stick to your tradition') is an important rule.
<<On the other hand, there are many different Ashkenazic pronounciations.>>
As there are different Sepharadi pronunciations.
Gershon
[email protected]
http://pw2.netcom.com/~gdubin/lcs.htm
Who in the world is "gershon Dubin" and why doesn't he source anything to back up his assertions?
Sephardi panther is right about this. Yes a waw is a waw, and a Het is not pronounced as a chaf. Rav Kook said that in true Lashon HaQodesh, every letter has its own unique pronunciation and that this is self-evident. Of course the language would not have different letters making the same sounds. The only mystery is the similarity of the "sin" and the samech. This is also reported on by earlier sources, that we at some point lost the pronunciation and that there must have been some subtle difference between the two originally.
Muman, I'll take Rav Kook's words over "gershon dubin" random guy on a forum.
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Muman, this is not an issue of "Sephardi vs. Ashkenazi, who's better" or "who's more accurate" .... Nobody is discrediting the Jewish mesorah (as a whole) of Ashkenazim or questioning the backgrounds or Jewish ancestry of any of these groups.
The fact remains, that the pronunciation of Hebrew by BOTH of these groups has it's problems. Notice, Sephardi Panther cited the TEYMANIM - These are the Yemenite Jews - who maintained a tradition of pronunciation unique from BOTH of the current Ashkenaz and Sephardi pronunciation, although in more ways similar to Sephardic. The bottom line is what is the correct way to speak our holy language. Not who is right or wrong or who is the best or closest. The point is, since the Hebrew language is the holy tongue and so important as it was crafted, let's try to adhere to its actual guidelines, be the masters of our own national language, and pronounce it properly as God intended.
Errors and mistakes crept into the mesorah for pronunciation by different groups in different areas, and this was a natural historical process, when people ended up in places where the common language had sounds that were different from Hebrew or didn't contain some of the unique sounds of Hebrew. This is why Ashkenazic Jews only pronounced waw as an undotted Bet, a bh or V sound, because in Ashkenaz and Europe they did not produce this sound W in the local languages, for x amount of time, enough that it passed out from the spoken dialect of the Jews in their prayers, etc. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging these mistakes and adjusting accordingly, and the work of linguists and grammaticists elucidates the proper Hebrew format. Chief among them is the great Grammarian and one of the greatest, most learned rabbis of all time, the Saadiah Gaon. He gave us explicit instructions and explanations regarding pronunciation that other later sources did not necessarily take time to explain. And given the early era he lived in, he can be relied upon for the bulk of this linguistic analysis.
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Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?
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http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/print.asp?id=3240
Hebrew pronunciation
Rabbi Elchanan Lewis
Question:
I’ve been wondering for a long time about the correct accent to use when speaking hebrew and leining etc. on the on hand Ashkenaz differentiates between Patach and Kamatz etc. which would appear to be better but then I heard the Sefaradi is better because there are contraditions in certain songs with the Ashkenaz one and Sefaradi is used as speaking Hebrew in Israel and its more authentic....so which one is the best or most correct? I know this isn’t the most important aspect about davening etc. but I learnt that the Vilna Gaon was very particular about speaking properly and correctly and I feel that it would help me and that it is important to me to be able to speak in the best way possible.
Answer:
The Poskim can't reach an agreement on what is the best and most correct pronunciation (it seems the Yemenite Jews have the most accurate version), all however agree that one should not change his family tradition.
(See Igrot Moshe OC 3 5, Yabia Omer 6 11, Heichal Yitzchak OC 3)
Why not? In reality, there is no harm in doing so. And there is a choice between saying something a person knows is wrong, but to maintain a family tradition of saying it incorrectly, vs. adopting the correct way, which there is no sin or anything wrong in doing, in fact it has great merit because it is the true way of connecting to lashon hakodesh and bringing out the beauty of the language. People take on new chumrahs all the time that my grandfather never heard of, and that a person's family never kept, so the whole idea about "not changing family custom" is not entirely true.
One should also note that an attempt to change a long practiced pronunciation may cause a Kavanah distraction which by all means is more important than the pronunciation itself.
I learned to pronounce the waw as a "vav" as a kid in hebrew school, yet I changed to a waw in my davening pronunciation, and find it is so much more natural and a more flowing way to speak and daven. I have never had a distraction in kavanah based on pronunciation.
which all Rabbis agree is the best minhag to keep...
It is always a mistake to say "all rabbis" Muman, because that statement is not true. Rabbi Daweed Bar Hayim is a rabbi, and he does NOT agree that the best minhag to keep is a family tradition of mistaken pronunciation. But you are of course free to choose to say whatever you want, even if you insist on Ashkenazic pronunciation error like so many others do. Just don't mislead people into the idea that no rabbi on earth believes one should adopt proper pronunciation if he thinks one way is more correct than another.
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Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?
Ones who lived in Arabic speaking areas of the Middle east. That of course includes Yemenites who lived in Yemen which is on the Arabian peninsula. Why would one read it in Yiddish except that that is the vernacular spoken by Jews in a given place? Well, same reason for Arabic. People knew and understood at least one if not all 3 of these languages.... And especially in Teyman, they were probably fluent in all 3, if they were literate, otherwise probably knew and could speak 2 of the 3 at least....
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Im sorry for saying "All Rabbis"... As always such a statement is an exaggeration. I meant to say that most Rabbis have said that keeping a family custom is important. The problem is that I enjoy davening with a minyan which sings some of the prayers, and if I was using this pronunciation it would be very distracting to others {I believe}. If this is the 'correct' pronunciation then some Rabbis should proclaim it as such and then the Jewish education system should be adapted to teach this correct pronunciation.
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It is true that Sepharadi pronunciation is most likely closer to the original Hebrew but this is true only regarding the consonants. As to vowels, Ashkenazi one is more diverse and I heard some rabbis say that it is more accurate in this aspect. It does make difference between "kamatz" {o} and "patach" {a}, "segol" {e} and "tzere" {ei}, etc. while in Sepahardi version the difference is almost lost. (In Teimani "segol" is pronounced like {a} though, but it is their specific thing and they have to prove it is correct not only to Ashkenazim but also to the other Oriental Jews :))
Regarding the Teimani pronunciation, with all due respect to it and the tradition it was taught, there are things that seem purely Arabic influence, like saying "jimmel" instead of "gimmel". No other version of Sepharadi Hebrew doesn't have such things while in Arabic "g" is always replaced with "j" (for example Arabs say "Jalil" instead of Hebrew "Galil" - Galilee).
I agree with Muman that most rabbis say that one should cling to the tradition of one's own fathers. It is really so. And Ashkenazi pronunciation, with all its variations(Ashkenazi proper, Lita'i and Chassidi), is not error, it is a legitimate variation (dialect if you wish) of Hebrew! Another thing that sometimes Ashkenazi Jews pronounce Hebrew words incorrectly even according the Ashkenazi pronunciation (like saying "mItzvois" instead of "mitzvOis").
That tradition thing is very actual for those who were born in religious families and heard the pronunciation of their fathers from childhood. In case of those who returned to the Torah observance form non-religious families it is less relevant. (I am such person and though I'm Ashkenazi, I was taught modern Hebrew first - which is closer to the Sepharadi one - therefore I pray in Sepharadi pronunciation. One more reason is that Sepharadi was the custom of the Land of Israel (minhag Eretz Yisrael) and many Ashkenazim that came to Israel in past centuries adopted it too)
When Eliyahu ha-Navi returns, he will teach us the correct version of Hebrew. I am almost sure it will include elements from both Ashkenazi and Sepharadi pronunciations, and maybe something that was lost by both.
With that being said, when we speak Hebrew in Israel, we use the pronunciation close to the Sepharadi one. It is a norm of modern spoken Hebrew and even religious Ashkenazi Jews use it in evreyday speech (but not in prayers or Torah-specific items or concepts).
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The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.
It is highly subjective thing. I guess the reason you feel so is because you were born in Israel and all your life spoke and heard modern Hebrew - which is much closer to the Sepharadi pronunciation.
Regarding Yiddish, almost opposite is true: Yiddish is one of the dialects of Old German with some percentage of Hebrew words pronounced with German accent :)
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Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.
Saadia Gaon said in his commentary on the Sefer Yetsirah that the Hebrew letter sounds are practically identical to the Arabic letter sounds. This is not surprising since both are after all Semitic languages unlike Yiddish.
Also it is obvious that the Ashkenazim only pronounce the Waw as an undotted Bet (V sound) because with germanic pronounciation all W sounds are pronounced with a V.
The Torah should not be read partially in Arabic, if that is what that video implies,
Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?
The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir. It was written by Saadia Gaon. I assume you are saying that the Torah should not be read in Arabic just because the Arabs are our enemy. Well likewise I could say to you that the Lashon HaQodesh should not be pronounced with a european accent because the europeans are far worse than the Arabs. Need I remind you that the europeans have sadistically tortured and murdered far far more Jews than the Arabs!!!!!
Anyway this is a more valid point since Saadia Gaon himself said Arabic (not Yidddish or Greek) is practically identical to Hebrew. The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture. Just listen to the Hebrew-Arabic songs of the many great Sefardic and Temani singers. They are by far the best singers in the world!!! Their music is music and if you heard it you would not be able to listen to any other type of music again.
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Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.
This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.
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The Torah should not be read partially in Arabic, if that is what that video implies,
Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?
The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir. It was written by Saadia Gaon. I assume you are saying that the Torah should not be read in Arabic just because the Arabs are our enemy. Well likewise I could say to you that the Lashon HaQodesh should not be pronounced with a european accent because the europeans are far worse than the Arabs. Need I remind you that the europeans have sadistically tortured and murdered far far more Jews than the Arabs!!!!!
Yes, the relations with the other peoples have nothing to do with the Hebrew pronunciation.
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The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.
The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.
Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries, and the language Torah was taught to students there was Yiddish, the best language to teach and study Torah is Yiddish. Yiddish is a very rich language and when you translate some Torah lessons of great Sages of Ashkenaz to Hebrew, part of the meaning is lost.
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The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture. Just listen to the Hebrew-Arabic songs of the many great Sefardic and Temani singers. They are by far the best singers in the world!!! Their music is music and if you heard it you would not be able to listen to any other type of music again.
I listened to Hebrew-Arabic songs a lot. In particular, when I served in IDF I listened to Moroccan Jewish songs in the Moroccan dialect of Arabic. I must admit they are great songs and their tunes come over and over again to my mind. Nevertheless, I still like Ashkenazi songs and I can't say they are worse than those Sepharadi ones. It is impossible to say which is better, they are completely different and incomparable realms.
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I would add that arguing which pronunciation or culture in general is better, is highly counterproductive!
Ashkenazi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the West.
Sepharadi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the East.
No other people on the Earth has such great linguistic and cultural scope. It is a great wealth. We must thank G-d that we have learnt both these great realms without losing our identity and national unity.
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The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.
I agree 100% I am Ashkenazi but I learned to speak Hebrew the Israeli way and now that I am in Israel it makes it much easier for me.
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If this is the 'correct' pronunciation then some Rabbis should proclaim it as such and then the Jewish education system should be adapted to teach this correct pronunciation.
Yes I agree.
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Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.
This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.
The gemara says to prolong the DALETH, not the vowels. The only way to prolong the daleth is if it does NOT sound like an english language "d" And indeed, without the dagesh, it is not a "d" but rather a "dth" like you would say at the beginning of a word like "THis" Not to be confused with the aspirated "th" for a word like "thigh" The daleth without dagesh is a hard sounding dth which has an equivalent sound to a letter in the arabic alphabet
With the dagesh, daleth sounds like an english language "d" - Notice in your prayer book that in the Shema, the large daleth at the end has no dagesh (dot) in it. You cannot extend a daleth with a dagesh in it (a d sound), it is not physically possible.
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The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.
It is highly subjective thing. I guess the reason you feel so is because you were born in Israel and all your life spoke and heard modern Hebrew - which is much closer to the Sepharadi pronunciation.
Regarding Yiddish, almost opposite is true: Yiddish is one of the dialects of Old German with some percentage of Hebrew words pronounced with German accent :)
If anything, the Israeli Hebrew sounds more like Yiddish than Sephardi dialect. The only exception is the taw which is pronounced as a "T" instead of "s" like Ashkenazim say it. Other than that, most letters sound European influenced. The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European, the het was completely replaced and duplicated into a khaf even though Sephardim always pronounced het properly.... until they came to Israel that is. As to the vowels, I don't find that Ashkenazi Jews are actually consistent about distinguishing between them, it is only in a few words it seems. Even in davening, it's certain well known oft-repeated words that might have a stronger kamatz sound, but most don't. (Yes, that's still more than Sephardim distinguish those vowel sounds).
I'm not sure what point you are making by saying the Ashkenazi pronunciation does the vowels better. Didn't we already say in this thread that this is not a "competition" and that it does not matter who is better or worse? Like I've said, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, both have had influence from the galut, but there is still only one ideal lashon hakodesh , even if it is some combination of 3 or 4 different dialects that have preserved different aspects of it.
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Also, even though I've used the same language as you here, I don't think it's accurate to call these "dialects" of Hebrew because they developed in the galut due to errors, and they were not local differences that sprouted organically in Eretz Yisrael where the language was spoken.
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I would add that arguing which pronunciation or culture in general is better, is highly counterproductive!
Nobody here is arguing something is better or worse. The point is what is correct. Aspects from either side are correct and incorrect.
Ashkenazi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the West.
Sepharadi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the East.
Yes exactly, but prior to that "experience" before there was even such a thing as Ashkenazi and Sephardi, Jews spoke Hebrew, their national language, in our homeland. And that that language was corrupted by "experience" in the east and west, is tragic, not something to be celebrated.
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The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.
The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.
Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries
That was their world center of Torah study, but there were other Jews in other parts of the world who also learned Torah. I don't buy into the concept of European Torah superiority.
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yes, it is well known to extend the daleth sound in echad and I have done this since I have made teshuva... I dont see how this is proof of this point... I say "Ech-a-D" and prolong the D sound.
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Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.
This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.
The gemara says to prolong the DALETH, not the vowels. The only way to prolong the daleth is if it does NOT sound like an english language "d" And indeed, without the dagesh, it is not a "d" but rather a "dth" like you would say at the beginning of a word like "THis" Not to be confused with the aspirated "th" for a word like "thigh" The daleth without dagesh is a hard sounding dth which has an equivalent sound to a letter in the arabic alphabet
With the dagesh, daleth sounds like an english language "d" - Notice in your prayer book that in the Shema, the large daleth at the end has no dagesh (dot) in it. You cannot extend a daleth with a dagesh in it (a d sound), it is not physically possible.
I know the difference between dalet with and without the dagesh (as well as between tav with and without one).
I also know that the Ashkenazim prolong namely kamatz vowel (as "o-o-o") and not the dalet. But they stress dalet and utter it more sharply. I guess you know what I mean.
Could you quote me the piece in Gemara (and better still, in Shulchan Aruch) concerning the laws of reciting the first verse of Shema? Honestly, I never saw the source. I trust the Ashkenazi tradition though.
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If anything, the Israeli Hebrew sounds more like Yiddish than Sefaradi dialect. The only exception is the taw which is pronounced as a "T" instead of "s" like Ashkenazim say it. Other than that, most letters sound European influenced. The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European, the het was completely replaced and duplicated into a khaf even though Sefaradim always pronounced het properly.... until they came to Israel that is. As to the vowels, I don't find that Ashkenazi Jews are actually consistent about distinguishing between them, it is only in a few words it seems. Even in davening, it's certain well known oft-repeated words that might have a stronger kamatz sound, but most don't. (Yes, that's still more than Sefaradim distinguish those vowel sounds).
Of course Israeli Hebrew is closer to the Sefaradi tradition than to the Ashkenazi one. Beside "t" & "s" issue, all the vowels are pronouced as in Sepharadi. Moreover, Sefaradi pronunciation officially is declared as the basis for the standard one. But I agree that Israeli Hebrew is different from Sepharadi. Actually, it is much more primitive because the Ashkenazi atheists who estabished the state and revived Hebrew, just could not pronounce guttural consonants correctly, as requried by Sepharadi tradition. On the other hand, they wanted to get rid of their "galut" Ashkenazi pronunciation and threw all the diversity of vowels in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttural
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The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European,
Israeli resh has nothing to do with Russian "r". The latter is much close to Sefaradi/Arabic one than to Eastern European.
But Israeli resh is indeed butchered.
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The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.
The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.
Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries
That was their world center of Torah study, but there were other Jews in other parts of the world who also learned Torah. I don't buy into the concept of European Torah superiority.
I don't buy it either. But it definitely has some unique strong points and we should respect it. This my response was special for Sefardic Panther who I think is prejudiced against the Ashkenazi pronunciation and Ashkenazi tradition in general. I would be happy if I am mistaken.
And what do you mean by their world center of Torah study? Aren't you an Ashkenazi? Isn't their tradition yours? :)
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I'm not sure what point you are making by saying the Ashkenazi pronunciation does the vowels better. Didn't we already say in this thread that this is not a "competition" and that it does not matter who is better or worse? Like I've said, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, both have had influence from the galut, but there is still only one ideal lashon hakodesh , even if it is some combination of 3 or 4 different dialects that have preserved different aspects of it.
Of course it's not a competition. As you said:
Nobody here is arguing something is better or worse. The point is what is correct. Aspects from either side are correct and incorrect.
So I state that the advantage of Askenazi pronouncation is in its vowels, as well as I admit that Sefaradi has advantage in consonants. Ashkenazi is more likely close to the correct in vowels, and Sepharadi is in consonants.
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Also, even though I've used the same language as you here, I don't think it's accurate to call these "dialects" of Hebrew because they developed in the galut due to errors, and they were not local differences that sprouted organically in Eretz Yisrael where the language was spoken.
I agree that "dialects" is not too correct word for Ashkenazi and Sefaradi pronouncatios. I used it just to show that both of them are legitimate versions of Hebrew, as two recognized dialects of a language can be legitimate.
because they developed in the galut due to errors
I agree but I would formulate it otherwise. They both preserved those unique Hebrew features that were similar to the respective languages of peoples Ashkenazim and Sepharadim lived with.
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The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.
I agree 100% I am Ashkenazi but I learned to speak Hebrew the Israeli way and now that I am in Israel it makes it much easier for me.
Nobody argues here about modern spoken Hebrew. Even Israeli religious Ashkenazim use "Israeli way" in everyday speech.
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I am certainly not prejudiced against the Ashkenazi tradition. On the contrary I study Hasiduth, the Tanya and Rebbe Nachman’s books. I admire the Ashkenazi Rebbes and would never have a bad word said about them. Rashi was Ashkenazi and Rabbi Meir Kahane was Ashkenazi and the Gedol of our generation Rabbi Mordechai Freidman Shlita is Ashkenazi. I hope that Rabbi Mordechai Freidman Shlita will one day become the Chief Rabbi of Israel or the head of the Sanhedrin because he is the best religious Zionist Rabbi.
Certainly Yiddish should be preserved with in the context of Torah study but when it comes to reading the Torah itself the germanic pronounciation of Hebrew is inaccurate. The Torah was mostly written in the ancient Akkadian dialect. I think that’s the reason why Hebrew and Arabic are identical because they both derived from Akkadian. Akkadian was the ancient language of the Arabian peninsula where Avraham Avinu’s ancestors invaded Sumer from. Read Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b it says the Daleth in Ehad (not the Heth or the kamats) must be prolonged which is impossible with european pronouciation. And read the Sefer Yetsirah with Saadia Gaon’s commentary he said the Hebrew language has 29 sounds (the 22 letters plus the 7 alternate letter sounds) which are identical to Arabic. With all due respect those sources trump whatever anyone else has said about the correct pronounciation of Toranic Hebrew.
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Spephardic Panther, I am happy that you are not against Ashkenazi tradition and scholars.
Regarding Saadia Gaon’s commentary on Hebrew language. As I can see from your post, the commentary deals with the Hebrew letters that represent consonants. What about nekudot that represent vowels? What about the difference between patch and kamatz, segol and tzere, etc?
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The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.
The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.
Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries
That was their world center of Torah study, but there were other Jews in other parts of the world who also learned Torah. I don't buy into the concept of European Torah superiority.
I don't buy it either. But it definitely has some unique strong points and we should respect it. This my response was special for Sefardic Panther who I think is prejudiced against the Ashkenazi pronunciation and Ashkenazi tradition in general. I would be happy if I am mistaken.
And what do you mean by their world center of Torah study? Aren't you an Ashkenazi? Isn't their tradition yours? :)
"Their" as in those rabbis who said it. Particular to them and not to Jews who were from (or in) other places.
"I" have nothing to do with any of it.
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yes, it is well known to extend the daleth sound in echad and I have done this since I have made teshuva... I dont see how this is proof of this point... I say "Ech-a-D" and prolong the D sound.
Saying "Da" is not extending a "d" sound, you are actually making a foreign sound attached to the end of the 'd'
To extend an "s" sound would you say "sssssss" ? Or "SSAAH" Obviously not "Suh" You've added a vowel to "S"
To extend an "m" sound would you say "mmmm" ? Or "mmmmMUH" Obviously not "Muh" because you've added a vowel sound to the "m"
There is no way to "extend" certain consonant sounds. That in itself is proof that Daleth without a dagesh is NOT a "D" sound. "P" is another sound you cannot extend. "K" would probably be another. "T" is another.
Sounds that CAN be extended, include zzzzzz, ssssss, mmmmm, etc
Saying "echaa dUH" (like I know some people do) is just adding a vowel to the end of echad, and that is NOT what the Talmud says to do.
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KWRBT,
I am often intrigued at your opinions on many topics. Would I be asking too much if I asked you what minhag you follow, and what your family minhag has been? I am interested because it would explain to me why you have the opinions which you have.
Personally I am descended from Polish and Ukranian Jews. As a result I believe that I have the traits of both Chassidic and Litvik Jews. My family emigrated from Uman in the early 20th century and I believe they may have been involved with Breslov chassidus.
Thank you
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I also know that the Ashkenazim prolong namely kamatz vowel (as "o-o-o") and not the dalet. But they stress dalet and utter it more sharply. I guess you know what I mean.
Do you think that "uttering it more sharply" is the same thing as "extending it" ? I sure don't. Neither did other great rabbanim.
Here is an article about it from Rabbi Bar Hayim where he speaks about this issue and some interesting anecdotes about it. It was posted into "esser agaroth's" blog.
http://esseragaroth.blogspot.com/2008/09/lashon-haqodesh-loshon-hakodesh.html
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The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European,
Israeli resh has nothing to do with Russian "r". The latter is much close to Sefaradi/Arabic one than to Eastern European.
But Israeli resh is indeed butchered.
You're right, I think I meant to say German. I think the Israeli "resh" sounds like a German way of saying it. I had never even known such a sound existed until I met Israelis. Either way, it's not like Arabic. The resh is supposed to roll off the tip of the tongue like in Arabic (maybe not every dialect though). The Spanish way to make r sound sounds more correct than the Israeli way, even though that is also not it exactly.
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Some of what is written on that blog sounds obviously anti-Ashkenazi to me...
Maybe it is not intended that way. But it sounds like he is trying to prove that Ashkenazim got it wrong...
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I am open to learning the ways of others and if there is truth then I will try to understand. But I don't know where this thread is going. I don't want this to lead to divisiveness.
I will agree that there may be truth in what you are saying but the Rabbis I listen to do not teach this. I will honor the Rabbis which I trust and their pursuit of truth. In the meanwhile I will accept that other Jews have different minhagim.
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KWRBT,
I am often intrigued at your opinions on many topics. Would I be asking too much if I asked you what minhag you follow, and what your family minhag has been? I am interested because it would explain to me why you have the opinions which you have.
Personally I am descended from Polish and Ukranian Jews. As a result I believe that I have the traits of both Chassidic and Litvik Jews. My family emigrated from Uman in the early 20th century and I believe they may have been involved with Breslov chassidus.
Thank you
Muman, we are not from the same places but close. My familiy descends from Lithuania, I am ashkenazi background with yiddish-speaking grandparents and great grandparents. We also descend from other places in Europe (ashkenazic). I am a baal teshuvah and there is no particular minhag for me to uphold considering I wasn't left anything except a bar mitzvah and a passover seder in all the dilution that took place. But of course my grandfather pronounces Hebrew like all ashkenazim, with a "sav," and there may be minor customs here and there that he can remember his parents doing or not doing. But I am not in anyway beholden to do what he did, if in a particular instance I can see that something was maintained merely due to error, or lack of correction (or because where they were from they couldn't say a certain sound). If I learn out the issue and see what to do correctly with the help of Rabbis, (and I'm able to pronounce the sound) I can just do that. And if they had known, they themselves would have corrected it earlier. But back then education wasn't so widespread, and you couldn't just look up Torah sources in a google search or a quick trip to the local yeshiva with stacked-to-the-brim beit midrash, with easy access by car. And no one could know, hey, there's Jews halfway across the world and they say Hebrew differently! And even if they did, it would take a great deal of searching to figure out who's right. Only the greatest of scholars like the Yaabetz, Saadiah Gaon, etc knew about these issues in a precise way.
And the fact that I even look at the Torah, is in itself a novel concept for those in my family still living. The fact that I am keeping Shabbat and mitzvot is itself "going against custom" because my family obviously stopped keeping halacha, first gradually, then entirely. There is nothing in halacha that says "if your grandpa did x, you must do x" otherwise Avraham would have been forced to be an idolator (chas veshalom) - and yes that's an extreme example but I'm just making a point of principle, that as Jews we do not just go by "custom" even though custom is important.
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Some of what is written on that blog sounds obviously anti-Ashkenazi to me...
Maybe it is not intended that way. But it sounds like he is trying to prove that Ashkenazim got it wrong...
"Many authorities have openly recognized the lackings of present-day Ashkenazi and Sepharadi pronunciations. The renowned Ashkenazi rabbi R. Ya'aqov Emden (Ya'abes) writes in his introduction to his famous Siddur Beth Ya'aqov: "Pronunciation must be complete and correct...particularly one must not confuse alephs with 'ayins and hehs...not to mention confusing totally dissimilar letters ...not as we the Ashkenazim pronounce the undotted tauw (tav) as a samekh, to our shame. In the matter of vowels, however, we are much better off, not like the Sepharadim who do not distinguish between a qames (kamatz) and a patah..." (new Eshkol edition p. 10). "
Sounds like equal opportunity criticism to me.
I think it is only "anti-Ashkenazi" if a person thinks from the outset that any pointing out of error in any aspect of Ashkenazic minhag is "anti-Ashkenazi." So is the author also Anti-Sephardi? Because clearly he points out the weakness/error in Sephardi pronunciation of vowels, which the Ashkenaz has as a strength.
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I am open to learning the ways of others and if there is truth then I will try to understand. But I don't know where this thread is going. I don't want this to lead to divisiveness.
I will agree that there may be truth in what you are saying but the Rabbis I listen to do not teach this. I will honor the Rabbis which I trust and their pursuit of truth. In the meanwhile I will accept that other Jews have different minhagim.
If something is very obvious, one doesn't really need a rabbi to explain it and then to have "faith" or "trust" in a rabbi that only he has the intellect to understand something simple, while no one else can understand something understandable.
Unless that rabbi has an OBJECTION to something very obvious, with a complicated explanation for why it is incorrect. Then in that case by all means hear out the rabbi, and please report back to me how he refutes you and your new information. I am dying to hear your rabbis' explanations for how any of this is wrong or incorrect, and why a person should say "Echaa DUH" in light of this very clear and enlightening information. And I wonder how they would argue against the Saadiah Gaon, Rabbi Yakov Emden, and Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsy among others. That would be a sight to see.
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KWRBT,
I think we do have a lot in common... My family has also assimilated and I think I am the only Jew who is observing Shabbat and doing Mitzvot. I think I have brought some Jewish belief back into my parents and they are proud of my level of Jewish observance even though they are non-observant.
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I think I have brought some Jewish belief back into my parents and they are proud of my level of Jewish observance even though they are non-observant.
Muman that is wonderful, to be a positive influence in their lives and that they are proud of what you are doing is a tremendous blessing, Baruch Hashem. I hope you will continue in this regard.
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Also,
"Seeing that Hebrew ceased (until recently) to be a spoken and living language at least 2000 years ago, the Ashkenazim simply never heard such a sound, and could not, therefore, pronounce it. "
To me this is anything BUT "anti-ashkenazi" - it gives a good, rational and sensible reason why to no fault of their own Ashkenazi Jews lost this tradition of the Ayin. There is no blame at all assigned here, and no criticism just a hypothetical statement that is extremely likely to be true.
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OK,
Maybe I was just being sensitive about it... I will not be judgmental at this time.. Of course I will study more and try to figure out how to deal with this.
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This site is very interesting... It has various songs with different Hebrew pronunciations...
http://torahreading.dafyomireview.com/
Torah Reading - Ashkenaz (complete) (courtesy of kolhaloshon.com)
Torah Reading - Sefardi (complete) (most of Devarim by Chazan Moshe Shema)
Tehilim Reading - Chasidish (Israeli)
Tehilim Reading - Yemenite Sefardi
Shir HaShirim (song of songs) - Israeli (Musical. CD quality)
Megilas Shir HaShirim, Esther, Ruth, Eicha Cantorial Ashkenazi (from 613.org)
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I see no problem with following a certain custom. But to say that other customs are wrong and there is 1 right way is simply wrong and I believe it is biggoted. Is that to say that because I don't eat Kiniot during Pesach that I am doing it wrong. Is that to say that every custom is wrong because another sect of Jews does it differently. That is not to say that each culture and each sect is not beautiful in its own way. I follow Askanazi custom because that is my backround. I Read and speak and Israeli brand of Hebrew because that is how I first learned it when I went to Hebrew school when I was 5 years old.
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This site is very interesting... It has various songs with different Hebrew pronunciations...
http://torahreading.dafyomireview.com/
Torah Reading - Ashkenaz (complete) (courtesy of kolhaloshon.com)
Torah Reading - Sefaradi (complete) (most of Devarim by Chazan Moshe Shema)
Tehilim Reading - Chasidish (Israeli)
Tehilim Reading - Yemenite Sefaradi
Shir HaShirim (song of songs) - Israeli (Musical. CD quality)
Megilas Shir HaShirim, Esther, Ruth, Eicha Cantorial Ashkenazi (from 613.org)
Awesome link! Thank you.
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BTW I also learned Hebrew the Israeli way of pronunciation as a child (excluding the weird "resh"), and I see no compelling reason why I should "switch" to saying a "sav" instead of a "tav." On the other hand, I DO see much reason to adopt an actual het, rather than a duplicate of khaf that I was taught, and so I pronounce het like Sephardim since that is the actual letter. Yes it is ok to say pronouncing a het as a khaf is mistaken, and that is not insulting anyone david ben aryeh, it is merely stating a fact. If one wishes to cling to their incorrect pronunciation, that is their right, but they can't claim that facts aren't facts and that a given letter is not a given letter. And if someone wishes to adopt what he sees as correct, there is nothing wrong with that either - You don't suggest that there is, do you?
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What about nekudot that represent vowels? What about the difference between patch and kamatz, segol and tzere, etc?
Again I am willing to go with the Temani on the Nequdot as well. For instance they do not distinguish between sagol and patah and I think Rashi himself said that sagol and patah are the same.
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One of the administrators from the Hebrew forum is a Yemenite Jew, and he makes a lot of videos of himself reading torah. Here is one of his recent videos, and you can see others in the list of related videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TETik_qwcS8&feature=sub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TETik_qwcS8&feature=sub)
I was following along with a tanach, and I noticed that he pronounces the gimel with a "j" sound, and he pronounces a tzadi like a samech.
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One of the administrators from the Hebrew forum is a Yemenite Jew, and he makes a lot of videos of himself reading torah. Here is one of his recent videos, and you can see others in the list of related videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TETik_qwcS8&feature=sub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TETik_qwcS8&feature=sub)
I was following along with a tanach, and I noticed that he pronounces the gimel with a "j" sound, and he pronounces a tzadi like a samech.
There are a few different Yemenite customs, one in which they pronounce the "j" sound, and one in which they do not. I forget which cities in Yemen correspond to which mesorah. Rav Bar Hayim has claimed that the scholarship shows that the Yemenite tradition for gimmel is the original custom and that the "jimmel" developed as a variant custom.
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What about nekudot that represent vowels? What about the difference between patch and kamatz, segol and tzere, etc?
Again I am willing to go with the Temani on the Nequdot as well. For instance they do not distinguish between sagol and patah and I think Rashi himself said that sagol and patah are the same.
Right it depends on the dialect of Hebrew. The Teymanim are the most accurate preservation of the Bavli dialect (spoken in Bavel). I'm not sure if the vowels are all correct, but they as a whole are the closest mesorah. The "Tiveria" dialect ( which was spoken in eretz Yisrael) had slightly different vowel sounds I believe, and it is said to be no longer a living dialect because no one pronounces it. You will find on the wikipedia page about Hebrew it says this dialect is "dead." But based on research of Rabbi Bentzion HaKohen in the sefer Sefath Emeth, Rabbi Bar Hayim has tried to resurrect this once-forgotten pronunciation, (he uses this 'Tiveria' pronunciation as do some of his students) which differs slightly from the Teymani pronunciation which is more Bavli dialect based.