JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Sefardic Panther on December 01, 2009, 01:27:58 PM
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The Torah says that all Jewish men must grow a beard and payoth. And of course all the greatest Rabbis have beards and payoth.
I don’t like the modern practice of some religious Jewish men using the electric shaver as a loophole for shaving.
The only people who do not have beards are boys and women.
In America do men with beards always get strip searched at airports? Is having a beard problematic for that reason?
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Funny you should ask...
The only time I was hassled at the airport was about six years ago... I was pulled aside because I had shaven my beard and my driver license ID showed me wearing my beard... I have not flown since then and I prefer not to fly....
I have let my beard grow for many years, and started keeping my peyot for about four years now...
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Mazel tov for growing a beard and payoth!!
B’ezrath Hashem more baalei teshuva will follow your example and distance themselves from gentile style and culture.
With payoth its kind of hard to hide being Jewish. Have you ever faced discrimination in the workplace? Take legal action if you do. If the blacks and the homosexuals can do it so should we!!!
One of the best things about living in Israel is that it’s the only country in the world where you can be openly Jewish and people will not make you ashamed of it.
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Mazel tov for growing a beard and payoth!!
B’ezrath Hashem more baalei teshuva will follow your example and distance themselves from gentile style and culture.
With payoth its kind of hard to hide being Jewish. Have you ever faced discrimination in the workplace? Take legal action if you do. If the blacks and the homosexuals can do it so should we!!!
One of the best things about living in Israel is that it’s the only country in the world where you can be openly Jewish and people will not make you ashamed of it.
Shalom SP,
I am not a Jew who is afraid of being called a Jew. To me it is a badge of honor and I am PROUD to be Jewish. I wear Kippah and Tzit-Tzits to work here and I have never seen any antisemitism here. We have an international work force including three Israelis and our company recently aquired a high-tech company in Tel Aviv.
I have heard it said that the goyim respect religious Jews more than they do self-haters... I think this may be a factor in why I have never seen anyone call me any derogatory name or prevent me from succeeding here at work. I am grateful to work with such a wide variety of people and they all seem to accept my Jewish image, and my Jewish neshamah.
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I’m happy that you are never discriminated against. I think this is evidence that when Jews do what Hashem wants antisemitism never arises. Antisemitism only occurs when Hashem punishes Jews for not following the Torah.
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I’m happy that you are never discriminated against. I think this is evidence that when Jews do what Hashem wants antisemitism never arises. Antisemitism only occurs when Hashem punishes Jews for not following the Torah.
This has worked for me but it is not a universal rule. I believe there were Jews in Germany who were very, very Kadosh/Holy and they still suffered at the hands of the cruel Nazi monsters... But there is some truth to the idea that Hashem expects us to act like Jews, and when we do we get the rewards which he promised.... Of course when we dont we get the curses...
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An explanation I got for why religious Jews suffered in the Shoah was that when judgement strikes a city the good as well as the wicked suffer. If there is a war and the enemy city gets bombed some good people die too. Avraham Avinu wanted Sodom and Gomorrah to be spared for the sake of 10 righteous men.
We should not let the Shoah be an excuse for Jews to become hiloni.
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The Torah says that all Jewish men must grow a beard and payoth. And of course all the greatest Rabbis have beards and payoth.
I don’t like the modern practice of some religious Jewish men using the electric shaver as a loophole for shaving.
The only people who do not have beards are boys and women.
In America do men with beards always get strip searched at airports? Is having a beard problematic for that reason?
You know, some women have facial hair.
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I'm 17, and I don't have enough facial hair to grow a full beard so I just shave. Maybe I'll grow a beard when I'm older and I have more facial hair.
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You know, some women have facial hair.
The only woman I know with facial hair is the bearded woman at the circus. I went out on a date with her. No I did’nt only joking.
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Payoth are most common with the Hasidim (particularly the Breslevers and Satmar) and the Temani. The fact that the Temani have payoth is evidence that this is a hairstyle that goes back to the time of the first Beith HaMiqdash. Remember the Temani have lived in isolation in the Arabian peninsula since those times.
Here is a recent picture of the guests at a Jewish wedding in Yemen -
(http://mediusoriens.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/yemeni-jews.jpg?w=500&h=334)
The 2 fellows without payoth are muslims.
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The Torah says that all Jewish men must grow a beard and payoth. And of course all the greatest Rabbis have beards and payoth.
I don’t like the modern practice of some religious Jewish men using the electric shaver as a loophole for shaving.
The only people who do not have beards are boys and women.
In America do men with beards always get strip searched at airports? Is having a beard problematic for that reason?
Payoth? It seems that halachically any small sideburns suffice for that. Nowhere does it say you have to grow them like chassidim do, although those are good too.
As to beards and payoth, you need to realize what kind of site you are on, and it would be much more important to get some people here to experience a wonderful Shabbath and start to celebrate Shabbath and to eat kosher, and put on tefillin. Something like a beard and payoth is external and is something that one cannot be expected to do or to even consider if they don't have foundations in Judaism first. There are many Jews on this site who don't keep basic misswoth. The "joy" of sporting a beard is not going to prompt them to love of Hashem, passion for Torah and keeping other misswoth. The joy of a Shabbath experience can do that. Being a Jew is not limited to dressing or appearing a certain way.
You don't like that modern orthodox and some haredim shave their beards with electric razors. Kol HaKavod. This seems like a silly thread to make.
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Payoth are most common with the Hasidim (particularly the Breslevers and Satmar) and the Temani. The fact that the Temani have payoth is evidence that this is a hairstyle that goes back to the time of the first Beith HaMiqdash.
Not so fast. There is documented evidence that gentile kings of Yemen forced Jews to wear sidelocks to outwardly distinguish them from Muslims and so everyone will know they are Jewish by looking at them. That is why they called them "Simanim" (signs). It is not necessarily something they got from the Torah.
The chassidish payoth were also not a custom in Europe, rather an innovation of the chassidim. Not that I'm against long payoth, but let's keep to the facts.
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The "joy" of sporting a beard is not going to prompt them to love of Hashem, passion for Torah and keeping other misswoth.
This seems like a silly thread to make.
My point is with a beard and payoth we can distance ourselves from goy culture and identify with Gedolim like the Ben Ish Hai and the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Are there any clean shaven Gedolim we can identify with?
There is documented evidence that gentile kings of Yemen forced Jews to wear sidelocks to outwardly distinguish them from Muslims and so everyone will know they are Jewish by looking at them. That is why they called them "Simanim" (signs). It is not necessarily something they got from the Torah.
Are you sure about that?
The Torah says Samson had 7 locks of hair. I bet those locks were more like payoth than the dread locks sported by rasta masters.
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As you may know, I associate with Breslov Chassidim because it is where my family came from...
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I have a beard, usually do, although I'm trying something Amish now, lol, where I shaved off my mustache.
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Rabbi Yosef Haim (the Ben Ish Hai) –
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Benishchai.jpg)
The Lubavitcher Rebbe –
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3b/Rebbe.jpg)
The Rabbi in the movie Pi (I don’t know if that beard was real or not but I wish my beard was like that. I think the Midrashim said that Nimrod’s beard was 4 feet long) –
(http://fusionanomaly.net/pikabbalah.jpg)
I would post a picture of my own beard but it is not much to boast about. Its frizzy and will only grow at the edge of my face and my moustache is thin and whispy.
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The "joy" of sporting a beard is not going to prompt them to love of Hashem, passion for Torah and keeping other misswoth.
This seems like a silly thread to make.
My point is with a beard and payoth we can distance ourselves from goy culture and identify with Gedolim like the Ben Ish Hai and the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Are there any clean shaven Gedolim we can identify with?
There is documented evidence that gentile kings of Yemen forced Jews to wear sidelocks to outwardly distinguish them from Muslims and so everyone will know they are Jewish by looking at them. That is why they called them "Simanim" (signs). It is not necessarily something they got from the Torah.
Are you sure about that?
Yes. I am sure that I read that, but I would have to look it up to bring a source, or at very least ask my Teymani friend, but the truth is, he himself may not know.
The Torah says Samson had 7 locks of hair. I bet those locks were more like payoth than the dread locks sported by rasta masters.
Last I checked, payoth are only in 2 places. It is always just one pair of payoth. That is really a weak way to bring proof as that is no proof at all. Samson had long hair, and that refers to the hair on his head. You cannot tell me that 3.2 locks were in the back, 1.8 locks in the front, plus 2 payoth. This is just strange speculation.
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Look, it's nice to have a beard but one can also be well groomed and trimmed. That was the shita of the Slobodka yeshiva, to be presentable and professional looking, neat and trim, ironed shirt, etc. And today's "Hevron yeshiva" is known for its talmidim being rather clean cut, as it is technically the continuation of Slobodka.
And like I said there are far more important matters and more impactful Jewish things that Jewish people can experience to cultivate a love of God and Torah.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Nosson_Zvi_Finkel_.jpg)
"The Alter" Rabbi Nosson Zvi Finkel surrounded by students in Hevron Yeshiva.
Also note the stylish bow-ties and non-black hats. Impressive indeed. (I'm not a hat expert so it may be those are similar styles to today just in different colors).
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ROTFLMAO at the title. :laugh:
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I'v been doing some research on Samson and Toranic hairstyles so that isn't my final word on the subject.
There is documented evidence that gentile kings of Yemen forced Jews to wear sidelocks to outwardly distinguish them from Muslims and so everyone will know they are Jewish by looking at them. That is why they called them "Simanim" (signs). It is not necessarily something they got from the Torah.
The chassidish payoth were also not a custom in Europe, rather an innovation of the chassidim. Not that I'm against long payoth, but let's keep to the facts.
Do you think its a coincidence that the Temani always had payoth and then the Hasidim on the opposite side of the world who never seen a Temani had the exact same style of payoth?
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i ave a beard now and i am keeping it for about 2 years now..thanks hashem
in the philippines its very diffucult to ave a beard but thank hashem again for helping me fulfill this great mitzvah.. soon a payoth
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I think Yosef HaTsadiq and Eliyahu HaNavi had payoth because its said that they curled their hair. Payoth must be curled so that they don’t mix with the beard hair. The head hair is Gevurah and the beard hair is Hesed so the 2 types of hair must never mix.
Can anyone confirm if its true that Esaw grew payoth to fool his father into thinking he was pious?
I think Bereishith 27:3 implies that Esaw had payoth. When Yitshaq sent Esaw out hunting he told him to take his bow and his teliekha. The word “teli” implies curled or dangling. A reference to Esaw’s payoth?
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I think Yosef HaTsadiq and Eliyahu HaNavi had payoth because its said that they curled their hair.
People also curl their regular hair because it is stylish. And likely it was stylish for men back then too.
Payoth must be curled
Not necessarily. Only according to certain people's definition of payoth, which they invented. Any type of sideburn that is long enough to grasp with the fingertips (go with a #2 or higher, a #1 or a buzz cut probably is too short) is sufficient to be called "payoth" or in reality, to fit with the negative commandment that a person should not shave the corners of his head. That is what the Torah speaks about. A prohibition to shave the corners of the head (in the area of the so-called "payoth" but it is not termed that way). If you have thin trimmed sideburns (and they don't have to go below the ear, either), you have successfully avoided this transgression. What you are speaking about is a custom that developed later in Jewish history and is not necessary for a Jew to keep in order to be a practicing and kosher Jew.
so that they don’t mix with the beard hair. The head hair is Gevurah and the beard hair is Hesed so the 2 types of hair must never mix.
Interesting Kaballah, but the Vilna Gaon was also a kabbalist and had his own take on these matters, and he never said a person must have chassidic style curly-q's in order to avoid the transgression against shaving the corners of the head. And non-Chassidic Orthodox did not have the "payoth" you describe (those of the chassidim). Not that there's anything wrong with having them, but don't try to claim that this goes back to Sinai and that all Jews "MUST" keep them. Because it doesn't and they don't. There are far more important things and things that Jews really DO need to keep that they are not keeping. So why all this fuss over something not necessary? Anyway, it reflects poorly to suggest such things without basis in fact and claim that it's Torah-true.
I think Bereishith 27:3 implies that Esaw had payoth.
Sounds like you just made that up.
When Yitshaq sent Esaw out hunting he told him to take his bow and his teliekha. The word “teli” implies curled or dangling. A reference to Esaw’s payoth?
What?!
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Men curling their hair to be stylish sounds a bit boy george. And indeed Yosef HaTsadiq and Eliyahu HaNavi were ridiculed for curling their hair. I am sure they had spiritual reasons for this practice which would otherwise be fairly effeminate.
I was told that Esaw had payoth (which he would have copied from Yitshaq and Yaqov). I wish I could find better evidence though.
Perhaps you can just grow regular sideburns. I am really not sure. My main point here is look at how the blacks and the muslims are flaunting their cultural styles. Why can’t we flaunt ours? It would combat assimilation.
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בס"ד
Men curling their hair to be stylish sounds a bit boy george. And indeed Yosef HaTsadiq and Eliyahu HaNavi were ridiculed for curling their hair. I am sure they had spiritual reasons for this practice which would otherwise be fairly effeminate.
I was told that Esaw had payoth (which he would have copied from Yitshaq and Yaqov). I wish I could find better evidence though.
Perhaps you can just grow regular sideburns. I am really not sure. My main point here is look at how the blacks and the muslims are flaunting their cultural styles. Why can’t we flaunt ours? It would combat assimilation.
Who made the Peyot a traditional Jewish hairstyle?
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What does that mean? The payot are an exclusivly Jewish hairstyle!!
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בס"ד
What does that mean? The payot are an exclusivly Jewish hairstyle!!
That wasn't my question. My question was, how can you say that it's a traditional hairstyle for Jews as being Jews (not a hairstyle being used by some Jews)? There are enough Jews, religious Jews, who don't Peyot (like me), and I don't think Essav is a good example for us (to learn from).
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I am most certainly not using Esav as an example to learn from. What I said was I heard Esav grew payot to fool his father into thinking he was pious. And the only pious people he could have copied the payot from were his father and his brother. If that is true then payot goes back to those times.
Yes a lot of Jews do not have payot. But the Temani (who have lived in isolation in the Arabian peninsula since Shlomo HaMelekh’s time and who practice a purer form of Judaism) have payot and all the greatest rabbis have payot.
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בס"ד
I am most certainly not using Esav as an example to learn from. What I said was I heard Esav grew payot to fool his father into thinking he was pious. And the only pious people he could have copied the payot from were his father and his brother. If that is true then payot goes back to those times.
Yes a lot of Jews do not have payot. But the Temani (who have lived in isolation in the Arabian peninsula since Shlomo HaMelekh’s time and who practice a purer form of Judaism) have payot and all the greatest rabbis have payot.
I don't remember anyhing like this, do you have a resource?
The fact that many Jews don't have Peyot doesn't remind anything to you?
Yes but the Temani Jews used it in order to distinguish them from the Gentiles who lived there. The fact that we shouldn't have Gentiles except for Gerei Toshav here makes me asks why we need to distinguish us from the Gentiles who don't even live here?
Btw, there's debate I think about what size and what place should the Peyot be.
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Last week I asked a Hasidic friend did people in the Tanak have payot. That was one thing he told me. I wish I could confirm if it was true.
The Temani and the Hasidim always had the exact same style of payot even though they lived on opposite sides of the world and never seen each other. So I find it hard to believe that the Temani only grew payot to distinguish themselves from gentiles.
My topic here is aimed at Jews in huts l’arets. They are the ones who must distinguish themselves from goyim especially the Jews in America. Assimilation is an extremely big problem there. B’ezrath Hashem it will soon stop!!!
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Many Ashkenazic Jews had Peyot and the Germans made many of the Jews shave them off, so too did the Ukrainian Hassidim, of which I am descended. I believe that Peyot are commanded from Torah and that is why I let mine grow, it is a simple mitzvah and there is much written about the reward for such observance. I am sorry that there are those who don't agree with this, but it is their perogative to interpret Torah according to their Rabbis.
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From:
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380701/jewish/Kabbalistic-Hair-Styles.htm
The man with the long hair
A Nazirite is a man or woman who adopts for a certain period of time (or for the rest of their lives) an extremely elevated spiritual lifestyle, dedicating their days to meditation, prayer, transcendence, and complete service of G-d, as discussed in Num. 6:1-21.
The Bible imposes three restrictions upon a nazirite, which according to Jewish law apply even today (see Rambam, Hilchot Nazirut; Sefer Hachinuch Mitzvot #368-377):
(a) A nazirite is forbidden to drink wine or eat any grape product;
(b) A Nazirite's hair may not be cut;
(c) A nazirite may not become defiled and contaminated.
Though it is uncommon to encounter a nazirite nowadays 1, we do have a tangible legacy of the Nazirite persona, in the form of a child. In some fashion, each of us was raised by our own parents as a nazirite.
First, parents usually keep their children off wine. Second, parents keep away their children from contaminated environments; and finally, it is a long-standing Jewish custom, dating back hundreds, maybe thousands, of years, for parents to let their sons' hair grow long and cut it for the first time only at the age of three.
This practice of giving a male child his first "boy's haircut" only after he reached three years of age, is known today in the Jewish world as an "Upshernish" ("haircut" in Yiddish), and is practiced in many observant Jewish communities the world over. During this ceremony, the boy's hair is cut, but special caution is taken to leave the hair between the ears and the hairless portion of the face, known as earlocks, or "peyot" in Hebrew. The reason for this is because the Bible prohibits the Jew from totally removing the hair of that location where the skull is joined to the jawbone, at the side of the ear. (Lev. 19:27. Cf. Rambam, Hilchot Avodat Kochavim 12:1. Shulchan Aruch Yorah Deah 181:1) What is the reason for this tradition? 2
The same question applies to a nazirite. We can understand how abstaining from wine and from contamination are conducive to fostering holiness and spirituality in a person's life. But why would the Torah instruct a nazirite to let his hair grow long? How does the possession of long, uncut hair, contribute to a life of transcendence?
To understand all of this, we must take a journey into the mystical world of hair.
What is hair?
In our modern terminology, hair is defined as "a collective term for slender, threadlike outgrowths of the epidermis of mammals, forming a characteristic body covering." However, Jewish mysticism believes that hair contains profound energy. The Zohar, one of the ancient Kabbalistic texts, sees every strand of hair as "harboring entire universes". One of the most profound sections in the Zohar, known as the Idra Rabba, a commentary on this week's Torah portion (Naso), is dedicated almost exclusively to discuss hair and its source in the divine reality. According to the Zohar, "…from the hair of a person you can know who he is." (Zohar, Naso, Idra Rabba 129a)
Kabbala discusses the paradox of hair, where on one hand it is rooted in a tubular pit of the epidermis, known as the hair follicle, and is nourished by the blood vessels in a papilla that extends into the follicle and into the root of the hair. This makes it part of the bodily structure. Yet on the other hand, hair contains neither blood vessels nor nerves, therefore not generating any pain upon their removal from the rest of body (Or Hatorah, parashat Emor p. 588-593).
The Kabbala of Hair
So how does Jewish mysticism view the significance of hair?
Hairs act as "straws" transmitting profound and inaccessible energy. Each strand of hair, shaped like a straw (the form of the Hebrew letter vav), communicates a level of soul-energy that due to its intensity cannot be communicated directly, only through the "straw" of hair, through the contracted, and curtailed medium of hair, which dilutes the intense energy.
Now, the Kabbala distinguishes between "fine hair" and "coarse hair" - the fine hair decorating the cranium, present immediately during birth, and the coarse hair of the beard, appearing only at a male's entry into adulthood. The hair that links the "fine" and the "coarse" are the peyot, the hair extending from the skull, down the jawbone, after which it merges with the beard.
The hair growing on top of the cranium, the "fine hair", represents the deeply concealed energy stemming from the interior of the skull, identified by Kabbala as the location for the super-conscious formations of the human psyche. The deepest and most primal forces of our psyche, the supra-rational desires and cravings of the soul formulated even prior to the birth of cognition, are associated in Jewish mysticism with the skull, defined as "the crown over the brain", or simply as "keter", which means the crown. Keter is seen as the most lofty and elevated part of the soul, its link to G-d, Who also transcends reason and logic.
The hair of the male beard, on the other hand, the "coarse hair", represents the energy stemming from the sub conscious cognitive impressions of the human psyche, located within the higher and lower brain. This dimension of the human soul is known in Kabbala as "Mocha Stima'a" (or "the hidden cognition"), and stands one rung below the level of keter.
(This is the mystical reason for the feminine body not developing a beard. As mentioned above, the mystical function of hair is to access, in a contracted and curtailed fashion, energy that is inaccessible due to its profundity. Women, however, are naturally more in tuned with their sub conscious cognition, and therefore do not require the "straws" of hair to access that level of self.)
Linking two universes
Now the question is if there is any way to link the super-conscious forces of the soul, the keter dimension, with the cognitive structure of the psyche? Can we ever mentally experience who we really are in our deepest space? Even after the keter energy was filtered into hair strands, is there hope for us to internalize this infinite light within the finite vessels of cognition?
Men of spirit from the days of yore have struggled with this dilemma. Judaism's answer to this question is - the peyot, the two rows of hair lingering down the jaw bone, that link the hair of the cranium to the hair of the beard. In Kabbala, these two rows of hair symbolize the contracted transmission of the super-conscious keter energy, to the sub conscious mental (Mocha Stima'a) energy, so that the infinite and unconstrained atomic power of the soul's crown can ultimately be contained and internalized within the mental framework of the human condition.
Without the two side locks curtailing, contracting and metamorphosing the new-clear energy of keter, none of it would be expressed or experienced within the person's conscious life. Only by having the keter energy filtered through the hair on the skull, and then re-filtered a second time via the peyot, can the deepest energy of the soul become articulated in the lower chambers of consciousness.
[This may also be the reason why the great kabbalist, Rabbi Isaac Luria (d. in 1572), did not allow his peyot to grow very much below his ears and have them hang over the sides of his beard, as is the custom of Yemenite, Moroccan and most Chassidic Jews. Rather he would trim his peyot with scissors to ensure that they just reached his beard. This "style" was embraced by the Chabad school and many other Ashkenazic and Sefardic communities. In the former style, the emphasis is on overwhelming the beard (representing the deep cognitive impressions) with the "peyot", representing the flow of the soul's pristine desire and emotion. This indeed is the spiritual path of Yemenite and many Chassidic Jews. In Chabad, however, the goal has always been to link between the atomic energy of the soul and the mental framework of the mind, represented by the connection of the peyot with the beard. 3]
The Man Who Gazes at His Pristine Self
All of the above is valid, however, in the case of an ordinary human being, in whom the hair of the cranium can transmit the intensity of the keter feature of the soul only via the peyot. The hair atop of the skull on its own (without the further filtering through the peyot) cannot convey that keter energy, due to its tremendous power and intensity. Therefore, the Torah instructs us to leave our peyot and beards intact, for these are the containers through which we access the holiness of our souls. There is no mitzvah, however, in letting the hair above the skull grow long.
However, a nazirite is a human being who, through a profound process of meditation and transcendence, attempts to go back to the primal formations of his soul. Such a person, says the Torah, ought to let his hair grow and grow, since each strand transmits and brings to the fore tremendous holiness and profundity, the supra rational link of the soul to G-d.
A nazirite needs not his peyot to filter the energy and bring it down to the lower brain-level; a nazirite is able to experience something of his true self without even the most refined masks.
The Secret of a Child
This may be the deeper reason for the Jewish custom of letting a child's hair grow freely till the age of three. During the first years of a child's life, what is most exposed in his life is his keter dimension - his primal, basic formations. During the first years, a child has not yet matured enough to allow his or her mind to filter through every experience and stimuli. At that time, a child is like a dry sponge, absorbing everything in a very deep place.
Though we often perceive children as lacking in the ability to internalize as much as we can, in truth, their level of internalization is far deeper - straight to the primal part of the soul, without traveling through the multi layers of mental cognitive structure. If you wish to know your pristine experiences, spend some real time with your child. There you will encounter your own keter, your own inner self, expressed in the long strands of hair decorating the crown of his soul, the skull.
After three years of age, the process of mental frame working and processing begins to increase significantly. This is the time when a child learns more and more to process the world around him via his conscious mind and heart, not via his super conscious core. It is at this point that we must begin to help the child build a bridge between his innate yearnings and his outer persona, between his soul and his mind.
That is why we give him a haircut, and we create a bridge - the peyot that carry down the keter soul energy into his lower brain, which as he grows older will develop a beard. This is the moment we generate the link between the majesty of his soul and the depth of his brain.
Bursting Through the Peyot
This is the deeper meaning behind the Torah's prediction that the Mashiach will "burst through the peyot of the Moabite nation" (Num. 24:17). Moab represents wisdom and intelligence. Nowadays, we must preserve the peyot in order to communicate the supra rational energy into the framework of rationality. But when Mashiach comes, the doors of our perception will be cleansed, granting us the ability to gaze at our core without flinching an eye. The core energy of the soul will come to the fore in its full vigor, not requiring the contraction and concealment represented by the peyot.
In that sense, our young children carry in their hair the light of Mashiach.
[Based on Zohar, Writings of the Ari, Likutei Torah, and other sources of Kabbala and Chassidut]
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Men curling their hair to be stylish sounds a bit boy george. And indeed Yosef HaTsadiq and Eliyahu HaNavi were ridiculed for curling their hair. I am sure they had spiritual reasons for this practice which would otherwise be fairly effeminate.
Culturally it may be considered "effeminate" to do so nowadays, but back then it was likely different. Cultural norms change. Men used to wear jewelry in Biblical times as well, and that was not considered feminine.
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Yes a lot of Jews do not have payot. But the Temani (who have lived in isolation in the Arabian peninsula since Shlomo HaMelekh’s time and who practice a purer form of Judaism) have payot...
Like I said, Teymanim were forced to wear "payoth" by the Muslim govt to separate them from the Non-Jews, and they were actually called "Simanim" (not payoth. Payoth are the corners of your field that you leave for the poor) for that very reason. Ask a Yemenite about it, maybe he'll know. If not, look it up. I've seen that there are sources about this.
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Last week I asked a Hasidic friend did people in the Tanach have payot. That was one thing he told me. I wish I could confirm if it was true.
First mistake. Sometimes people just make stuff up to justify their own practice. There are also nutty people who will tell you that Moshe Rebenu wore a black hat and/or a kipa.
The Temani and the Hasidim always had the exact same style of payot even though they lived on opposite sides of the world and never seen each other.
What do you mean hasidim "have always" had the exact same style? "Hasidim" (those followers of Hasidic Judaism) have only been in existence for about 300 years (or less).
My topic here is aimed at Jews in huts l’arets. They are the ones who must distinguish themselves from goyim especially the Jews in America. Assimilation is an extremely big problem there. B’ezrath Hashem it will soon stop!!!
Good luck trying to get them to sport payoth. Most of them don't even know why they should stay Jewish at all, let alone wear a "Jewish" hairstyle.
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KWRBT,
I disagree with you on this topic. There is much evidence that biblical men wore peyot, this is why it is one of the commandments. We have argued about this several times and you have yet to prove your point. It seems you are arguing from the point of your own opinion and not based on scripture or any teaching of any respected Rabbi.
I have heard it said from several rabbis, both Chassidic and Non-Chassidic that peyot are a commandment. And there is much evidence I can produce which shows that this is a distinctive Jewish hair-style which was kept by all the Patriarchs and Jews for many centuries.
I dont know why you are so opposed to them? What is the purpose of denying a commandment?
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http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/5/Q1/
Our first reader from University of Maryland writes:
Dear Rabbi,
I've always been fascinated by the dress of Hassidic Jews and wondered why it is that the men grow long sidelocks?
signed,
Curious in College Park
Dear Curious,
Let us approach this question in two parts, briefly.
First of all, the Torah commandment is not only for Hassidim, but intended for every Jewish male. The Torah teaches:
"Do not cut off the hair on the sides of your head..."
Vayikra 19:27.
A Jewish male must leave sideburns (peyot) down to the joints of the jaw that are opposite the ear, approximately a third of the way down the ear.
Secondly, the custom to wear _long_ peyot is mentioned in the Talmudic commentary of Tosefot (compiled in Touques, France, approx. 1300 CE :
"One has to be exceedingly careful not to remove his Peyot even with a scissors because they are like a razor; therefore the accepted custom has been to leave long peyot on children when they have their first haircut."
(Nazir 41b)
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch in his commentary on the Torah suggests that peyot form a symbolic separation between the front part of the brain and the rear part. The front part is the intellectual, the rear part is the more physical, the more sensual. The wearer of peyot is thus making a statement that he is aware of both facets of his mind, and intends to keep them to their appointed tasks.
The previous answer first appeared on soc.culture.jewish, before the ASK THE RABBI list began. When it did, Howard at Mt. Holyoke wrote to us asking:
If the Torah commands that men (I assume there's another passage somewhere that makes this commandment refer only to males) "not cut off their hair on the sides of [their] heads," then why are the sideburns cut off "approximately a third of the way down the ear?" Either we are commanded to not cut the hair, or we are commanded to let it grow to a certain length.
Where did the length interpretation come from?
Good question!
The length interpretation is based on the word "peyot", which means "corners", referring to the corners of the head. See Rashi on the verse in Vayikra 19:27; Rashi also gives a lengthy description (sorry!) of the locations of the "corners", and why they are called "corners".
The reader in Mt. Holyoke is correct in his assumption that only MEN are obligated to wear peyot. This is further explained in the Gemara in Kiddushin 35b.
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KWRBT,
I disagree with you on this topic. There is much evidence that biblical men wore peyot, this is why it is one of the commandments.
Muman, it is not ME you disagree with, but it is the facts that you disagree with. I am only presenting the facts, uncomfortable as they may be to some of you.
The Chassidic movement began with the Baal Shem Tov who lived until around 1760. There was no such thing as a "chassidic" guy before that time. Their unique style of dress and even their haircut was an elaboration of certain mitzvot that already existed but which were NOT practiced in that way up until that time. They INNOVATED. It was a movement of INNOVATION. Innovation is not forbidden by the Torah. Often it is even encouraged. A Chiddush is innovation. Innovation is only bad if it is against Torah. To extend one's payoth well beyond the required length is not a violation of Torah. However it is not the requirement to be yotzi the mitzvah! So while innovation is not forbidden by Torah, what is forbidden is to distort the truth. And to claim that a recent innovation goes back to Mt. Sinai is a distortion.
"There is much evidence that biblical men wore peyot,"
No, there is none. And none has been shown in this thread. Only some vague speculation that had nothing to do with the verse cited.
We have argued about this several times and you have yet to prove your point. It seems you are arguing from the point of your own opinion and not based on scripture or any teaching of any respected Rabbi.
Here we go, the "argument from authority" stuff.... I have met many "respected rabbis" who do not wear chassidic style "payoth." In fact, MY ROSH YESHIVA does not wear them. He has a standard haircut with hair long enough to not violate the prohibition. No hanging or curling or dangling. If you claim that my rosh yeshiva is "not respected" you'll have to take it up with Rav Eliyashiv, Rav Shteinman, Rav Shternbuch, and countless other gedolim he is personally friends with (not to mention the many he was close with in his life who are no longer with us, such as Rav Wolbe ZT"L and Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZT"L) and ask them why they respect my rosh yeshiva. My gemara rabbi (a genius and well respected) also does not sport "payoth" like you describe.
While we are on the subject of sources, can you show me in Shas where it says to dangle your payoth down to your neck?
I have heard it said from several rabbis, both Chassidic and Non-Chassidic that peyot are a commandment.
The commandment is a negative commandment (a prohibition) that says: in Vayikra (Leviticus) ch 19 verse 27
. לֹא תַקִּפוּ פְּאַת רֹאשְׁכֶם וְלֹא תַשְׁחִית אֵת פְּאַת זְקָנֶךָ
27. You shall not round off the corner of your head, and you shall not destroy the edge of your beard.
(from Chabad.org)
Not rounding the corner of your head is achieved by a very thinly trimmed sideburn.
There are those like the chassidic sects who innovatively "beautified" the mitzvah by extending the payoth very long and some of them not cutting them at all. But the mitzvah itself does not require that. If you were told that, you were misled.
This issue is so pashut that there shouldn't be any need to quote any sources. Alas, I bring you the pasuk which states the actual prohibition, and perhaps there are some sources who state specifically that the hasidic style payoth are not necessary. Perhaps the shas gives actual dimensions for the hair, I'm not sure. I will check with my rabbi and report back to you.
And there is much evidence I can produce which shows that this is a distinctive Jewish hair-style which was kept by all the Patriarchs and Jews for many centuries.
LOL.
I dont know why you are so opposed to them? What is the purpose of denying a commandment?
Here you go again with your misinterpretations. Did I ever say I'm "opposed" to chassidic-style payoth? NO! Did I ever deny the existence of the negative commandment? NO.
In fact I said earlier in this very thread:
" Any type of sideburn that is long enough to grasp with the fingertips (go with a #2 or higher, a #1 or a buzz cut probably is too short) is sufficient to be called "payoth" or in reality, to fit with the negative commandment that a person should not shave the corners of his head."
And
"That is what the Torah speaks about. A prohibition to shave the corners of the head (in the area of the so-called "payoth" but it is not termed that way). If you have thin trimmed sideburns (and they don't have to go below the ear, either), you have successfully avoided this transgression. What you are speaking about is a custom that developed later in Jewish history and is not necessary for a Jew to keep in order to be a practicing and kosher Jew."
And
"Payoth? It seems that halachically any small sideburns suffice for that. Nowhere does it say you have to grow them like chassidim do, although those are good too."
Muman, it is very tiresome to have to go back and cut and paste from my own statements. Please read more carefully or at least do not overreact in an emotional way to my position and then distort it.
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Then will you please explain why the Talmud, which was written so many years before the Innovations of the Chassidim, contains mention about not cutting the peyot? That is not explained by your explaination.
Also as Sephardic Panther has stated, the Temeni Jews also grew their peyot long and they have, what you consider, the most authentic remnant of original Jewish observance around today. Did they have contact with the Chassids in Ukraine?
I am not trying to argue, and maybe I sounded emotional, and I am not trying to prove that every Jew must wear them... But I do believe it is something a proud Jew should do in order to proclaim his love of the mitzvot.
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Then will you please explain why the Talmud, which was written so many years before the Innovations of the Chassidim, contains mention about not cutting the peyot? That is not explained by your explaination.
The Talmud is explaining the pasuk from Torah, and explaining it the same way the Torah relates. Paya (plural payoth) refers to the corners of the head. You can't "round" the corners which means remove all the hair there. It is a negative commandment.
The machloketh in Talmud is over what consitutes the "corner." It does not mean that hair from the top of the head or at the top of the corner must hang all the way down to the bottom of the corner and/or below it, or to never be cut at all. It means that any place within the "corner" that hair grows cannot be shaved off with a razor and according to strict opinion it cannot be so short that you can't bend it with the fingertips. This is why I said not to get closer than a #2 haircut because that is the strict view le'hathila. Leaving a little length falls in line with the strict view.
BTW, about sources, the Chatham Sofer says explicitly that they have no makor (source) for the chassidic way of payoth, it is purely a minhag that was originated by some Jews. There is no source in chazal or Talmud, rishonim etc.
Also as Sephardic Panther has stated, the Temeni Jews also grew their peyot long and they have, what you consider, the most authentic remnant of original Jewish observance around today. Did they have contact with the Chassids in Ukraine?
Interestingly they never called them payoth, they called them simanim, which in English means "Signs." They were signs to distinguish them by their haircut from nonJews in appearance, and the Muslim ruler demanded that they adopt simanim. In any case, they don't have a makor (source) either, even if they claim the tradition goes back, but who among Yemenites claims that? It seems it is you guys that are claiming that in their name. Did Rav Kapach ZT'L the greatest Teymani Gadol of the recent generation sport chassidic-style payoth? NO.
(http://www.chayas.com/images/morigaf.jpg)
I don't see any there, do you?
I am not trying to argue, and maybe I sounded emotional, and I am not trying to prove that every Jew must wear them ...
Now you are saying something different. Can you see that you have changed your argument here? I reacted to the phony claims here that every Jew must sport chassidic-style Payoth, which is completely false, and also the very weak attempts to claim that this action dates back to Biblical times (no proof of that) or that the deoraissa commandment in the Torah is obligating that. FALSE. It is a recent innovation and a beautification of the mitzvah that the Chassidic movement spearheaded.
But I do believe it is something a proud Jew should do in order to proclaim his love of the mitzvot.
You are free to believe that and no one can begrudge you such a belief. Neither would I attempt to begrudge you that. But don't claim it's a halachic statement or that there is any source to such a belief. It is fair for you to hold that way. But Jews here must know that the real requirement is not as such. The requirements they need to know about include being Shomer Shabbath, eating only with kashruth, laying tefillin, etc. If they wish to beautify a mitzvah like payoth - bevakasha, go right ahead, but don't pretend that a person is not a kosher Jew if he has normal sideburns without any chassidic-style payoth.
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Many Ashkenazic Jews had Peyot and the Germans made many of the Jews shave them off
Also lets not forget that ben gurion’s hiloni stormtroopers cut the beards and payoth off all the Temanim under some phony “hygiene regulation”. Any Temani who refused was beaten up and thrown in jail. Beards and payoth should be a badge of honor in memory of events like this.
Muman613 that is an extremely interesting article from Chabad.org. Hair does indeed have a lot of power. Note that all of Samson's powers came from his hair and after the shiksa cut all his hair off he had no power at all. Nazarites have the power of prophecy and all their power comes from letting their hair grow. And it would be interesting if Yitshaq, Yaqov, Yosef and Eliyahu HaNavi had payoth. Because they were all noted for having the power of prophecy.
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Men curling their hair to be stylish sounds a bit boy george. And indeed Yosef HaTsadiq and Eliyahu HaNavi were ridiculed for curling their hair. I am sure they had spiritual reasons for this practice which would otherwise be fairly effeminate.
Culturally it may be considered "effeminate" to do so nowadays, but back then it was likely different. Cultural norms change. Men used to wear jewelry in Biblical times as well, and that was not considered feminine.
Well the people who ridiculed Yosef and Eliyahu HaNavi were the people in that era who knew them. So that is fairly good evidence for my point.
Like I said, Teymanim were forced to wear "payoth" by the Muslim govt to separate them from the Non-Jews
And like I said I find that hard to believe because the Hasidim who lived half way across the world had the exact same hairstyle even though the Temanim and the Hasidim had never seen each other. Or do you think the king of Yemen traveled to eastern europe and after seeing the Jews there he thought it would be a good idea to make the Jews in Yemen grow the same hairstyle? Or did the king of Yemen study the Torah and decide to make the Jews grow a distinguishing hairstyle based on the Mitswa not to round off the corners of the head? I never knew that goy leaders derived their aparteid laws for Jews from the Torah.
What do you mean hasidim "have always" had the exact same style? "Hasidim" (those followers of Hasidic Judaism) have only been in existence for about 300 years (or less).
Even 300 years ago there was little or no contact between east and west. Did the Baal Shem Tov travel to Yemen and get the idea for payoth from the king’s aparteid laws?
There are a lot of Temanim in Israel who still have payoth even though there is no muslim government to force it on them.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Amnon12.jpg)
Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak
Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak Shlita is extremely knowledgeable in every field and he has brought thousands of secular Israeli youth back to Judaism.
(http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad17/Panther_Photos/6.jpg)
Mori Michael Shelomo Bar-Ron
I think Mori Michael is a rationalistic/non Hasidic staunch follower of the Rambam like yourself and Rav Kapach. Check his website – http://www.torathmoshe.com/
And he still has payoth!!
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WOW! This is astounding! Normally I do not get into games about saying who is a greater/etc rabbi than whom, but this is absolutely ridiculous! Truly unbelievable what my eyes behold in this thread.
With all due respect to Rabbi Amnon Yisshaq shlita, I cannot believe that you even dare suggest he is somehow above the level of Rabbi Yosef Kapach ZT"L or even in his league! As if it somehow matters that he wears simanim, whereas Rabbi Kapach did not, and we should trust one over the other. This is beyond absurd.
As far as I know, Rabbi Yitzhak does not even pasken halacha. Of course Rabbi Kapach was quite obviously a posek par excellence. Not to mention Rabbi Amnon Yisshaq's relative youth (certainly he was even younger during Rabbi Kapach's time - Rav Kapach passed away in 2000), and his focus has been kiruv, which prevents as much scholarship or publication. Rabbi Yosef Kapach ZT"L was a dayan on the beit din hagadol of Yerushalayim, and not only was he the greatest Teymani Gadol of his time, I question whether any of the non-Teymani gedolim even approach him in wisdom aside from a very select few who were/are very exceptional who were/are likely in a class with Rav Kapach. Perhaps the Chazon Ish and Rav Kook (both more like a prior generation), and more contemporary Rav Kanievsky, Rav Ovadia, maybe less than a handful of others. That is a very very select few. In Yemen, Rav Kapach became the authority and teacher of the Sana'a community at the age of 14!
Wikipedia has this to say: "He wrote and studied extensively on the heritage of Yemenite Jews. He published a book under the title of “Halichot Teman”, and edited the “Shivat Tzion” tiklal, a Yemenite prayer book reflecting the views of Maimonides in three volumes. In 1993 he published a new version under the title of “Siach Yerushalayim” in four volumes (most other editions now have six)."
His scholarship is truly unparalleled. Wikipedia lists many of his other numerous achievements and reflects his tireless efforts throughout his life to preserve and spread the Holy Torah.
Would he not wear payoth if this indeed was to him not only the custom, but binding obligation of Yemenite Judaism? For some reason he would just omit that mitzvah from his arsenal? What a complete joke and total stupidity. And he obviously knew whether it was a custom or not, and in what way it became so.
It also says there:
"In his leadership of the Yemenite community in Israel he endeavored to maintain peace between the main factions in the community and worked to preserve Yemenite customs."
Apparently not the 'custom' of simanim?
It is truly ironic that you also cite Mori Michael Bar-Ron who will be the first to tell you that he is nowhere near the level of his esteemed teacher Rabbi Kapach ZT"L whom he learned under for years. I'm sure it would take many decades before Mori Bar-Ron could even ask the question whether he has come CLOSE to the level of his rebbe, Rav Kapach. Although I'm sure he'd be too modest to even consider such a stupid and silly question which is beneath him to do such a thing. But for someone who speaks ignorantly in his name, ie you, for sure they would have to wait many many years before they could even postulate about that question, let alone suggest that he had reached the level of his teacher! Unbelievable is the astouding ignorance displayed in this thread.
So the fact that some Teymani Jews wear simanim to this day, even great Jews like Mori Bar-Ron and Rabbi Yisshaq, has no bearing on the discussion. Rav Kapach had universal recognition as a gadol and did not wear them. That just goes to prove to you that you cannot pretend anymore. All I even need is one great rabbi to disprove you.
The fact remains that there are no chassidic-payoth or simanim in that picture (or others of the rabbi) and the fact that you would actually attack the gadluth of a talmid chacham (a truly wise and unique one at that) to try to degrade his status relative to others who behave differently, in order to push your dishonest agenda in the name of Torah, over how you FEEL people should do things, proves that you are merely distorting the truth and desecrating Hashem's Torah with no interest in halacha or reality, rather than approaching things with an open mind. What a disgrace.
Like I have already pointed out, no less than the Chatham Sofer writes explicitly that the chassidic Jews who wear these elaborate style payoth developed their own custom and have no makor for it (no source). Meaning it does not go back to biblical times in his opinion, not even close. Purely custom. So can you drop the lies now and stop claiming that every Jew is Biblically required to wear chassidic-style payoth, or will you keep trying to deceive people with smoke and mirrors and by playing games about elevating rabbis who wear them and disrespecting those rabbis who do not? Please cease this rubbish and save yourself from sinning further.
I think enough has been said in this thread and I request the moderators of the forum to lock this thread in order to prevent anyone from purveying any additional sheker. I wish to protect my friends on the forum from going astray with their distortions, and I wish to protect also those I don't know on the forum from being led astray by their distortions. What needed to be said has been said, and both sides had their voice. This should end now.
Actually I retract the request to lock the thread, as it should be left open to give you an opportunity to do teshuva here. Otherwise I request a stop to this discussion if for anything other than a retraction/act of teshuva.
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Some images of great Jewish people who wear Peyot:
(http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~magi9/isracame.files/peyot.jpg) (http://www.freewebs.com/zionist4israel/PEYOT.jpg) (http://www.shalomnewyork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/yemen_jews.jpg)
(http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/pictures/_old/16143.jpg) (http://iamachild.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/portrait-of-a-young-boy-with-peyot.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2385134717_6c3f171869.jpg) (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_d4zmqSfE-J8/R_tXQWNFAMI/AAAAAAAAAoA/7NuM4h74nJc/s400/Nahal+Haredi1.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Orthodox_Man_with_Beard_by_David_Shankbone.jpg/150px-Orthodox_Man_with_Beard_by_David_Shankbone.jpg) (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3FqDZMuL_o0/R-zvYECOo2I/AAAAAAAAANE/y21fO5aI3gw/s400/Rabbi-Margolis.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3FqDZMuL_o0/R-zv-UCOo4I/AAAAAAAAANU/Z10x79qTbpg/s400/Rabbi-Chaim-Leib-Auerbach.jpg) (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3FqDZMuL_o0/R-zu9kCOo1I/AAAAAAAAAM8/3t_C7BVyKqY/s400/Rabbi-Eisenbach.jpg)
(http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/189.jpg/img] [img]http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/kol5.jpg)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/120683115_43909b161c_m.jpg) (http://www.algemeiner.com/images/uploaded/tradition/1177.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7tLqMOXSPm8/RyfBX0hX2fI/AAAAAAAABrk/DGJbp2k5XzU/s320/tm.jpg) (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/yosef_karduner.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ld71HngLKgI/Sl4CfyGWlmI/AAAAAAAAEZU/D4Tp2SSazhw/s400/OT+-+Rav+Lazer+Brody+I.jpg)
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I am not arguing with you KWRBT... Some people have assigned different weights to different mitvot... You must agree that there is a mitzvah to not 'round the corners of the head', you have said this yourself... So you just don't interpret this command to mean that you should let your peyot grow... Maybe this is because some rabbis don't consider the importance of some mitzvahs and elevate the status of other mitzvahs.
Here are more images of Jews who are sporting their Jewish Hairdoo...
(http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/200326881-001.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=405954B421854B6ADC5E3FCB844A208149207362A3F24453) (http://israelhaiom.com/images/yemen-jewish-children.jpg)
(http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2007/04/07/20070406185647.jpeg) (http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/settler%20cries%20in%20synagogue%20Tapuach.jpg)
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I apologize for that question about Rav Kapach ZT'L. Please excuse my ignorance. I only became religious 2 years ago so there is still a lot I don’t know about many Rabbis. I obviously did’nt know that Rav Kapach was so brilliant all I knew was he rejected the Zohar (a position which still seems controversial to me).
I said Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak is the best because he brought so many Jews back to Judaism. But obviously he is not better than Rav Kapach.
And I was actually not saying Mori Michael Bar-Ron is greater than Rav Kapach I was only illustrating the fact that a lot of Temanim still have payot.
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I apologize for that question about Rav Kapach ZT'L. Please excuse my ignorance. I only became religious 2 years ago so there is still a lot I don’t know about many Rabbis. I obviously did’nt know that Rav Kapach was so brilliant all I knew was he rejected the Zohar (a position which still seems controversial to me).
I said Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak is the best because he brought so many Jews back to Judaism. But obviously he is not better than Rav Kapach.
And I was actually not saying Mori Michael Bar-Ron is greater than Rav Kapach I was only illustrating the fact that a lot of Temanim still have payot.
I too am a Baal Teshuva who has been on the path for over seven years now.... There is always something to learn and as long as we are seeking truth through the Torah we are on the same page...
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Here is another perspective from the Parasha of AchareiMot-Kedoshim :
http://www.njop.org/html/AchareiMot-Kedoshim5767-2007.html
Acharei Mot-Kedoshim 5767-2007
"Beards and Payos"
Rabbi Ephraim Buchwald
In the second of this week's double parashiot, Acharei Mot-Kedoshim, instructions are given regarding "kosher barbering etiquette": the prohibition for a Jewish man to cut the corners of his hair near the ears or to shave his beard.
Leviticus 19:27 reads: "Lo ta'kee'foo p'aht rosh'chem, v'lo tash'cheet ayt p'aht z'kah'neh'chah." You shall not round off the corners of your heads, and you shall not destroy the corners of your beard. The Sefer Ha'Chinuch (the classic work on the 613 commandments, their rationale and their regulations, by an anonymous author in 13th century Spain) enumerates these laws as two separate prohibitions. The result of these two Torah injunctions has been a long history of stereotypical Jewish men, with long beards and dangling sidelocks at or around the ears.
The first part of the aforementioned verse forbids a Jewish man (women are exempt from both these laws since they do not typically grow beards) from cutting the hair below his temples at the middle of the ear, or having anyone else do this for him. The hair that is left uncut is often called "peyot" (peyes) derived from the Hebrew word "peyah" (corner), that is found in the verse. Many observant men simply do not cut the hair at the cheekbone, leaving relatively inconspicuous, but slightly longer than normal, sideburns. Many Chassidim and other very Orthodox men do not cut their peyot at all, curling them behind their ears or letting them hang as long dangling curls.
Many observant men customarily allow their beards to grow. In a play of words on the verse in Leviticus 19:32: "V'hah'dar'tah p'nay zah'kayn," and you shall honor the presence of a sage, the word "zah'kayn" is at times read as "za'kan," a beard, implying that the beard is to be honored. It is therefore not surprising that the Talmud in Shabbat 152a, declares that the beauty of the face is the beard.
The rabbis deduce from scripture's wording that there is a legal difference between the treatment of peyot, the sideburns, and the beard. With respect to the peyot, the verse in Leviticus 19:27 states: "Lo tah'kee'foo," you shall not "round off" the hair below your temples. With respect to the beard, the Torah declares, "Lo tash'cheet," you shall not "destroy" the corner of your beard. The rabbis therefore rule that it is forbidden to cut the sideburns in any manner. However, with respect to the beard only the use of a razor that destroys the base of the hair is specifically prohibited. The use of scissors or a depilatory on the beard are permitted by most authorities.
According to the rabbis, a man's beard has five "corners": at the two upper cheekbones, the two jawbones, and on the chin. Thus, a man who shaves his beard with a razor commits five separate violations.
Maimonides (the Rambam, 1135-1204, the great Jewish philosopher, codifier and physician), R' Abraham Ibn Ezra (1098-c.1164, Spanish Bible commentator), and the Sefer Ha'Chinuch explain that the prohibition against shaving with a razor derives from the fact that shaving was a pagan custom practiced by idolaters. Rabbeinu Bachya ben Asher (1263-1340, Spanish Biblical commentator) and the Abarbanel (1437-1508, Spanish statesman, philosopher and commentator) suggest that men were forbidden to shave their beards because facial hair is a natural feature that distinguishes men from women. Shaving one's beard therefore violates the Torah's prohibition of dressing like a woman (Deuteronomy 22:5).
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (1808-1888, the great Bible commentator and leader of German Jewry) argues that the reason that a man may not cut his hair below the temples is because that area marks the division between the front of the head and the back of the head. Removing the hair at the temples, does away with this division, and allows the forehead and the back of the head to seemingly run in one line. Removing the distinguishing mark between the cerebrum and the cerebellum, blurs the distinction between the higher dignity of the human being, possessor of profound intellectual, moral and spiritual endowments, and animals who lack these exalted endowments.
Back in the late 1990s, a young man from Italy came to the Beginners Service at Lincoln Square Synagogue and expressed interest in converting to Judaism. He noted that his parents, who felt that they were of Jewish origin, had already converted to Judaism in Italy. The young man attended the service for several months, and then suddenly vanished. When I called him, he embarrassedly informed me that he had fallen in love with a non-Jewish woman whom he had married. Although, I invited him to keep in touch, I did not hear from him again for several years, until September 2001 when he appeared at the Rosh Hashanah Beginners Services that were conducted at the NY Historical Society.
When I had a chance, I discreetly asked him where he had been. He said that his marriage had not worked out, and that he was now absolutely determined to convert to Judaism. He told me that in preparation for conversion he had decided several weeks earlier to take upon himself a special mitzvah that he would observe in order to show that he was serious about his commitment. He decided to stop using a razor and to shave with an electric shaver. He explained that the first time he used the electric shaver it took him a half hour longer to prepare himself in the morning. That day he arrived at work one half hour late--at the World Trade Center, a delay that, probably saved his life. He is now happily married, living a fully observant Jewish life with his family.
Of course, we have no way of knowing what the reward for the performance of mitzvot will be. But, we must certainly regard each mitzvah seriously and consider carefully the ramifications and implications of all the Torah's instructions.
May you be blessed.
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I am not arguing with you KWRBT... Some people have assigned different weights to different mitvot... You must agree that there is a mitzvah to not 'round the corners of the head', you have said this yourself... So you just don't interpret this command to mean that you should let your peyot grow... Maybe this is because some rabbis don't consider the importance of some mitzvahs and elevate the status of other mitzvahs.
Muman. Please cease this sheker. Your amount of cognitive dissonance is absolutely mindboggling. Your childish display in this thread is just getting worse and worse. There is no "downplaying" of any mitzvah here. Because how could they down play it? IT IS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN IN THE CHUMASH AS A NEGATIVE COMMANDMENT. No one is ignoring this mitzvah. On the contrary, the argument is about the PARAMETERS for fulfilling the mitzvah. Did the Chatham Sofer say that this mitzvah is "not important" CHaS VESHALOM!? No. He said that there is no source for the chasidic custom with which they fulfill this mitzvah. He said that the halacha, the Jewish law, of how to fulfill the mitzvah, requires something much different (less) than what they do. Granted that what they do is certainly permitted and also fits the bill. But it is not required. You need to get over the fact that the chassidic 'stringency' or 'beautification' of this mitzvah is NOT what is required to fulfill it. And I'm sorry if someone misled you by giving you that impression. But please cease the distortions.
Many fine Jews wear chassidic style payoth. And many fine Jews (religious, even very learned rabbis) do NOT. And those fine Jews that do NOT sport the chassidic style payoth are loved no less by Hashem, and fulfill their halachic requirement in that mitzvah no less.
Should I now post picture collages of Jews throughout history who did not have payoth? How about the talmidei chachamim of Germany and other places in Europe in the 1800's and 1900's? Would that be constructive? No, that would be silly and pointless. But I have seen many such pictures just so you know!
This is not about promoting hairstyles. Anyone is free to sport whatever they like as long as they do not violate the commandment. Just don't tell me that your preferred haircut is the real deal, and anything else violates. There is a halacha in Judaism!
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(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/120683115_43909b161c_m.jpg)
Who is this? He looks too much like this thing:
(http://hayamin.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22235.0;attach=6918;image)
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I apologize for that question about Rav Kapach ZT'L. Please excuse my ignorance. I only became religious 2 years ago so there is still a lot I don’t know about many Rabbis. I obviously did’nt know that Rav Kapach was so brilliant all I knew was he rejected the Zohar (a position which still seems controversial to me).
I appreciate this, and see that there was a misunderstanding. I myself am not so learned either, believe me, so it's not about that in itself. As long as we are willing to admit when we don't know and we don't make the mistake of assuming we know more than we actually do. Let us just be careful about what we say of great talmidei chachamim who gave their all for klal Yisrael. That is what I wished to stress. It is a very serious thing.
And you are right that his position there is controversial. At the same time, he kept his views on that issue largely to himself and tried to unite the Yemenite community (and all Jews) despite the very strong differences within pertaining to this issue (some factions of Yemenites strongly in favor of Zohar and others strongly against). He was vocal with more pertinent matters, and his scholarship was focused on more pertinent matters than that machloketh.
I said Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak is the best because he brought so many Jews back to Judaism. But obviously he is not better than Rav Kapach.
And I was actually not saying Mori Michael Bar-Ron is greater than Rav Kapach I was only illustrating the fact that a lot of Temanim still have payot.
Fair enough but I still maintain that it has no bearing on the crux of this matter whether or not a lot of people (some of the teymanim, included) wear the simanim. The fact is that not everyone does, even though they obviously hold of that mitzvah. It must be there are different parameters of how to fulfill it that are equally acceptable. It can be a matter of preference if one likes the style and wishes to beautify the mitzvah with the chassidic style payoth. I just wanted to dispel the notion that one does not fulfill it halachically without doing so. It must be clear that that is not required of every Jew to wear the long chassidic style payoth, even if it is a desirable/fashionable/positive-cultural/ etc option according to some opinions, including several in this forum, yourself included.
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I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.
Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?
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I think it's because hatred can be blinding. They have a hateful philosophy and it causes them to hate the whole Jewish people because everyone is zionist in some way and therefore pasul in their eyes.
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But hamas wants to kill all Jews including them.
Have Natory Qarta ever lived in an arab country? If anyone said their opinions to a Jew who lived in an arab country they would get punched in the face.
I think Natory Qarta should consider living in an arab coutry for 6 months. That would soon give them a reality check!!!
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I am not arguing with you KWRBT... Some people have assigned different weights to different mitvot... You must agree that there is a mitzvah to not 'round the corners of the head', you have said this yourself... So you just don't interpret this command to mean that you should let your peyot grow... Maybe this is because some rabbis don't consider the importance of some mitzvahs and elevate the status of other mitzvahs.
Muman. Please cease this sheker. Your amount of cognitive dissonance is absolutely mindboggling. Your childish display in this thread is just getting worse and worse. There is no "downplaying" of any mitzvah here. Because how could they down play it? IT IS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN IN THE CHUMASH AS A NEGATIVE COMMANDMENT. No one is ignoring this mitzvah. On the contrary, the argument is about the PARAMETERS for fulfilling the mitzvah. Did the Chatham Sofer say that this mitzvah is "not important" CHaS VESHALOM!? No. He said that there is no source for the chasidic custom with which they fulfill this mitzvah. He said that the halacha, the Jewish law, of how to fulfill the mitzvah, requires something much different (less) than what they do. Granted that what they do is certainly permitted and also fits the bill. But it is not required. You need to get over the fact that the chassidic 'stringency' or 'beautification' of this mitzvah is NOT what is required to fulfill it. And I'm sorry if someone misled you by giving you that impression. But please cease the distortions.
Many fine Jews wear chassidic style payoth. And many fine Jews (religious, even very learned rabbis) do NOT. And those fine Jews that do NOT sport the chassidic style payoth are loved no less by Hashem, and fulfill their halachic requirement in that mitzvah no less.
Should I now post picture collages of Jews throughout history who did not have payoth? How about the talmidei chachamim of Germany and other places in Europe in the 1800's and 1900's? Would that be constructive? No, that would be silly and pointless. But I have seen many such pictures just so you know!
This is not about promoting hairstyles. Anyone is free to sport whatever they like as long as they do not violate the commandment. Just don't tell me that your preferred haircut is the real deal, and anything else violates. There is a halacha in Judaism!
KWRBT,
Ok, so now I think I understand what you are saying and I must say that I agree. As I said before, I dont think that all Jewish men are required by Halacha to wear Peyot in the style which the Chassidic and Temeni Jews grow theirs... I have also read that some Rabbis poskin that it is OK to cut the peyos as long as it is not with a razor... But I think that this is considered a leniency by most...
My only point in posting many images of Jews with Peyot is that this hairstyle is a uniquely Jewish style and one which has its origins in the Torah. The reason I have not cut mine is so that my ancestery is such that my great grandparents wore peyot and as a result I have adopted the minhagim of my ancestors. I suggest every Jew keep the minhagim of their ancestors and this is what most Rabbis teach us to do.
There is no doubt that there are many pious and righteous Jews who don't have long peyot. I never intended to argue against that. I hope that it is clear what I have tried to say here... I support the Chassidic beliefs concerning this but I don't disparage those Jews who don't observe Chassidic minhagim.
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בס"ד
I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.
Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?
Not all of them are like this. They're the "religious" form of self-hating Jews.
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But hamas wants to kill all Jews including them.
Have Natory Qarta ever lived in an arab country? If anyone said their opinions to a Jew who lived in an arab country they would get punched in the face.
I think Natory Qarta should consider living in an arab coutry for 6 months. That would soon give them a reality check!!!
The founders of their sect lived in Eretz Yisrael with Arabs, I believe in part of Jerusalem. Of course, things are different with a foreign British ruler keeping order, but even then things weren't pretty with Arabs. (Consider Hevron, etc). My take on it is that it seems their leaders were a bit naive and when things got tough due to the warfare (and pre 1948 sometimes retaliations from the british) they wanted to point the finger and blame something because their personal families felt comfortable for a few generations (possibly even "good standing" with the Arabs because they played the dhimmi role well) and these events upset their harmony and their personal comfort was encroached upon. Their "normal lives" now included hardship and turmoil, as it did for all the Jews there in that period. And the people in Jerusalem certainly faced considerable hardships in that period due to the circumstances, which of course if the "zionists" had the means to alleviate they obviously wanted to and tried to. This sect (one or two rabbis?) pointed the finger at other Jews who dared to see things differently and do things differently, who dared to consider something outside of their own arba amot, and the rest is history. They stuck to the original views like a dogma, unflinching no matter how much reality changes. So there can be 10 times hamas (G-d forbid) and they will still make the same senseless claims in their blind hatred and the way they dogamatized some of the hashkafic views of their early sect leaders. It became a new Torah for them. "We were always at peace with the Arabs." Completely untrue, but their one or two leaders said that about their own respective families how they personally interacted with arabs over a few generations, and so they take that statement and make it into a universal truth about Jews and Judaism all thru history in all places even tho nothing is father from the truth and it is ahistorical. So too with other stupid ideas.
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בס"ד
I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.
Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?
Not all of them are like this. They're the "religious" form of self-hating Jews.
Are you so sure? There is a religious reason that the NK is anti-Zionist... I have looked into their reasoning and it is not self-hatred, according to what I learned. Their problem is that they don't think that Jews can occupy the land without Hashem first giving us permission through the nations of the world. As it is written in Torah that if the Jews don't keep Torah that the land will vomit them out... That for Jews to fight to stay in the land when they are exiled, like the time after the golden calf incident in the midbar, they will be defeated by their inferior enemies. All those Jews who tried to go into the promised land from the midbar, against Moses command, died trying to enter the land...
Of course I don't agree with what NK does and I am not making any excuse.... But to simply call them self-hating is a very gross oversimplification of the reason NK is anti-zionist.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.
Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?
Not all of them are like this. They're the "religious" form of self-hating Jews.
Are you so sure? There is a religious reason that the NK is anti-Zionist... I have looked into their reasoning and it is not self-hatred, according to what I learned. Their problem is that they don't think that Jews can occupy the land without Hashem first giving us permission through the nations of the world. As it is written in Torah that if the Jews don't keep Torah that the land will vomit them out... That for Jews to fight to stay in the land when they are exiled, like the time after the golden calf incident in the midbar, they will be defeated by their inferior enemies. All those Jews who tried to go into the promised land from the midbar, against Moses command, died trying to enter the land...
Of course I don't agree with what NK does and I am not making any excuse.... But to simply call them self-hating is a very gross oversimplification of the reason NK is anti-zionist.
I wasn't talking about NK as a group. I was talking about these specific people who literally betray the Jewish people and HaShem, support the Arab muderers, etc (like those who are pictured). There is a Halachic debate, that's true (you already know on what side I am), but that does NOT justify the support for murder of fellow Jews, and support the desecration of the Name of Heaven, ceou tout.
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Muman,
The Satmar chassidim are the paragon of anti-zionism and even the Satmar do not find halachic justification for the insanity of the Naturei Karta and even the Satmar excommunicated the Naturei Karta. I cannot see any room to justify anything an NK does or says. For crying out loud, the NK's go on national tv wearing the PLO flag. These are evil traitors whom we pray for their destruction 3 times every day.
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Muman,
The Satmar chassidim are the paragon of anti-zionism and even the Satmar do not find halachic justification for the insanity of the Naturei Karta and even the Satmar excommunicated the Naturei Karta. I cannot see any room to justify anything an NK does or says. For crying out loud, the NK's go on national tv wearing the PLO flag. These are evil traitors whom we pray for their destruction 3 times every day.
Did I bring up Satmar? I didn't intend to... And the closest I have come to NK is Satmar, but there are certainly differences...
But if you read the wiki page for NK this is what it says that they believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_karta
Neturei Karta stresses what is said in the mussaf Shemona Esrei of Yom Tov, that because of their sins the Jewish people went into exile from the Land of Israel ("umipnei chatoeinu golinu meiartzeinu"). Additionally, they maintain the view - basing it on the Babylonian Talmud [8] - that any form of forceful recapture of the Land of Israel is a violation of divine will. They believe that the restoration of the Land of Israel to the Jews should only happen with the coming of the Messiah, not by self-determination.
Neturei Karta believes that the exile of the Jews can only end with the arrival of the Messiah, and that human attempts to establish Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel are sinful. In Neturei Karta's view, Zionism is a presumptuous affront against G-d.
Rabbi Moshe Hirsch, a leader of the smaller and more radical group within Neturei Karta,[4] has endorsed Yasser Arafat, the Palestine Liberation Organization and later, the Palestinian Authority as the rightful rulers of the Land of Israel, which includes the modern-day State of Israel. Other Jewish groups, including anti-Zionist ones, have criticized this alignment, describing it as condoning or even abetting Palestinian political violence or using Palestinians as a tool for the destruction of Israel.[9][10][11]
The Neturei Karta synagogues follow the customs of the Gaon of Vilna, due to Neturei Karta's origin within the Lithuanian rather than Chasidic branch of ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Neturei Karta is not a Hasidic but a Litvish group, they are often mistaken for Hasidim because their style of dress (including a shtreimel on Shabbos) is very similar to that of Hasidim. This style of dress is not unique to Neturei Karta, but is also the style of other Jerusalem Litvaks, such as Rabbi Yosef Sholom Eliashiv and his followers. Furthermore, Shomer Emunim a Hasidic group but with a similar anti-Zionist ideology, is often bundled together with Neturei Karta. Typically, the Jerusalem Neturei Karta will keep the customs of the "Old Yishuv" of the city of Jerusalem even when living outside of Jerusalem or even when living abroad, as a demonstration of their love and connection to the Holy Land.
I OBVIOUSLY AM ZIONIST AND STAND FIRM AGAINST NK. I SIMPLY POINT OUT WHAT THEY SAY THEY BELIEVE. I HAVE REBUKED THEM NUMEROUS TIMES
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No Muman, you did not bring up Satmar. I did.
I did so for a reason. If you read my post carefully you'll understand why.
It seems you attempted to justify the NK group because their supposed ideology has 'Torah basis.' This cannot be further from the truth.
I brought the example of Satmar, whom I find misguided in their hashkafa, but whom are halachic Jews nonetheless, because Satmar EXCOMMUNICATED Naturei Karta. This means that not even Satmar, staunch anti-zionists can find a grounds to justify Naturie Karta or its beliefs, and yet for some reason you try to do that here in this thread on the basis of "legitimate" antizionist hashkafa. Do you not see a problem here?
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No Muman, you did not bring up Satmar. I did.
I did so for a reason. If you read my post carefully you'll understand why.
It seems you attempted to justify the NK group because their supposed ideology has 'Torah basis.' This cannot be further from the truth.
I brought the example of Satmar, whom I find misguided in their hashkafa, but whom are halachic Jews nonetheless, because Satmar EXCOMMUNICATED Naturei Karta. This means that not even Satmar, staunch anti-zionists can find a grounds to justify Naturie Karta or its beliefs, and yet for some reason you try to do that here in this thread on the basis of "legitimate" antizionist hashkafa. Do you not see a problem here?
I know Satmar Chassids and they are good people. I don't know NK and I hope to never know any one of them. I do not forgive them for their position. To me the Mitzvah "Do not stand idle as your brother bleeds" overrides the anti-state stance they take. Also the Torah gives us commandments "So that we may live", which is why we can violate even Shabbat in order to save a life. Ahavat Yisroel is another important mitzvah which even overrides saving a non-Jew. There are so many Torah reasons I abhor what NK does that I could go on and on with reasons NK is wrong.
But when we look at how rotten the state of Israel has become because of secular-zionism I sometimes wonder in my mind why Hashem has allowed this to happen. Secular Zionism is not good for the Jewish people, it leads to the problems we are seeing today in Israel, such as the Barak VS Har Bracha Yeshiva....
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BTW Sephardic Panther, I do apologize if I was too harsh with you. Of course you can't be expected to be an expert if you've been at learning for such a short time. I am also no expert. I think I just wanted to stress that this site would not become a hornet's nest of attacking rabbis for their hashkafot like some sites turn into (or like some people are in real life). We can be civil in our disagreements and still accord respect for the chachamim and also for each other. If you were offended by my remarks I apologize.
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I know Satmar Chassids and they are good people. I don't know NK and I hope to never know any one of them. I do not forgive them for their position. To me the Mitzvah "Do not stand idle as your brother bleeds" overrides the anti-state stance they take. Also the Torah gives us commandments "So that we may live", which is why we can violate even Shabbat in order to save a life. Ahavat Yisroel is another important mitzvah which even overrides saving a non-Jew. There are so many Torah reasons I abhor what NK does that I could go on and on with reasons NK is wrong.
But when we look at how rotten the state of Israel has become because of secular-zionism I sometimes wonder in my mind why Hashem has allowed this to happen. Secular Zionism is not good for the Jewish people, it leads to the problems we are seeing today in Israel, such as the Barak VS Har Bracha Yeshiva....
And this is related to Naturei Karta how? There is no relation, it sounds again like you are trying to make excuses for them. Like I said, do not conflate anyone who is antizionist into one big group. The Satmar are the epitome of antizionism and they excommunicated the naturei karta for being Arafat-loving traitors.
Even though I personally dislike and disagree with so-called "antizionism" and even though I think it's woefully misguided, still, even that "Torah position" has boundaries, and NK clearly cross the line into traitor-ville.
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I was not offended at all by your remarks. You were right for telling me that Rav Yosef Kapach ZT’L was the best Temani Talmid Hakham in recent times. Everyone ought to know that and all Jews should appreciate all the work he has done which included restoring ancient versions of the Rambam’s works. I had no idea and I had him confused with his grandfather Rabbi Yihyah Kapach. It was actually him that was famous for publically rejecting the Zohar.
I made this topic on beards and payoth only to encourage the hairstyle and promote Toranic Yehudi culture. Payoth have actually become very popular with the Yehudi communities in Judea and Samaria because Baruch Goldstein (may Hashem avenge his blood) had payoth. I am not saying that every Jewish man must have them. I realize there are a lot of good Yehudi men who do not have payoth. I know the hairstyle is not a Halakhic requirement although I am still not sure on whether or not it goes back 4000 years.
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I love my beard. And my haircut is Torah sanctioned. These are both sources of joy for me.
It is not surprising Yemeni and Chassidic Jews have very similar hair styles. Great minds think alike, and we all read Torah.
Not having to shave means more time to study Torah each day!