JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ~Hanna~ on December 20, 2009, 01:29:05 AM
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WHY THE RADICAL TERRORIST MUSLIMS liked Hitler and STILL LIKE HIM today...... when he said he was a Christian? I'm trying to explain that Hitler was not a real Christian....just a fake one....
I THINK PEOPLE NEED TO BE MORE EDUCATED ABOUT THIS.....especially those who say that they LOVE Israel and LOVE GOD.
I tried to explain that they were anti-semetic and so was Hitler and that Hitler killed 6 million jews in the holocaust, but they dont seem to understand why the Muslims like Hitler to this day.
I showed them that video with all the pictures of them and Hitler and Hitler's books, but they are not understanding.
I just expained once again, that they want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth...HOPEFULLY it will sink in this time, I dunno. >:(
:o :o :o
help.
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One thing I've noticed with anti-Semitic people is that their main focus, regardless of whatever else they say, is hating Jews.
I would be willing to bet that the average neo nazi who CLAIMS to be standing up for the white race would be more than willing to brutally murder an entire family of white people, father, mother, children, babies, and grandparents, if it meant they could then murder at least one Jew. Then they would blame the Jew they murdered for the death of that family and use it as an excuse to go after more Jews.
Anti-Semites stand for nothing but anti-Semitism. It consumes them, it's their main focus and goal in life, to wipe out all Jews. Muslims too will murder Muslims that they claim loyalty to. They will murder their own family to get at Jews. They have no loyalty to other Muslims or to themselves, if it means they can hurt Jews. If they can hurt a Jew in the process, they will blow themselves up, or send their own children to blow themselves up in order to hurt as many Jews as possible.
That's the one thing you have to understand about anti-Semites. They claim to stand for all kinds of things, but the only thing they care about is hurting or murdering Jews.
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Yes, I agree. I asked this one particular person, to make sure, that they believed the holocaust happened, to make sure we were even on the same page about that (there sure are some ignorant poeple out there).
But yes, it is clear to me, about that....
To me, in general, the world is evil, full of alot of hate and only getting worse.... and not a nice place...to others, I am not so sure...they need some education...
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Yes, I agree. I asked this one particular person, to make sure, that they believed the holocaust happened, to make sure we were even on the same page about that (there sure are some ignorant poeple out there).
Good idea. It's hard to talk to someone when you're not even on the same page with them.
But yes, it is clear to me, about that....
To me, in general, the world is evil, full of alot of hate and only getting worse.... and not a nice place...to others, I am not so sure...they need some education...
I guess my point is, that a Nazi, a Muslim, or a run-of-the-mill every day Jew hater are basically coming from the same position, and will have more in common with each other than they have differences, because none of them really stand for anything, except their hatred of Jews, which they share in common. That's why the Nazis got along so well with the Muslims and why you can still see (if you can stomach it) them talking about the poor "Palestinians" on their sick forums. They otherwise wouldn't give two shakes about the "Palestinians" but they know that they have Jew hatred in common with them and that's all that matters to them.
I think if someone doesn't understand how Nazis and Muslims could have been friends then that's what you should tell them, that they shared common ground in their hatred of Jews and that is the primary belief of both Nazi-ism and Islam.
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Yes, true. I am waiting for them to respond to me now.
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בס"ד
The reason is this:
(https://www.mijbookstore.com/ProdImages/NobleQur%27anEnglishOnly(HB).jpg)
Hannah, if you need any info about Islam (not radical Islam, there's only one Islam), why, where and what, I'm here.
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בס"S
Also, Nazism involves Christian concepts and you can't say this is fake:
(http://www.letsrollforums.com/Blog/priests-salute.jpg)
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I don't understand the confusion. It's not like Christianity has a law code or anything. They did away with any idea of "halacha." All a Christian has to do is believe in a certain story and call themself Christian- well, so what, that doesn't mean a person is going to act properly even if he believes a certain thing in his mind. I think it's very obvious why this can happen. Even if there were laws in place, not everyone can keep them, people mess up and do bad things. But when there is no law in place, all the moreso, there is nothing governing proper modes of behavior and it's anybody's guess to formulate the deeds they consider to fall in line with whatever the belief is in their head. That laxity or uncertainty in ethics creates a vacuum. All too often in history it was used by evil people (even priests like those pictured) to commit terrible deeds against Jews as supposedly in line with their beliefs and merely filling the ethical vacuum.
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בס"S
Also, Nazism involves Christian concepts and you can't say this is fake:
(http://www.letsrollforums.com/Blog/priests-salute.jpg)
Nazism involves Nazi ideas......Hitler hand no use for churches or priests of any kind. He stated clearly that after he won the war he would destroy the church. He complained often that the church interfered with his policies and made it hard to fight the war as he wished. I am sure their were plenty of priests in Christian churches appeasing Hitler for a time hoping things would change and avoid being dragged off. Just as there was Jewish leaders in some Jewish Ghetto's during WW2 who did the same thing. It has nothing to do with being involved people were trying to buy time in hopes that the Nazi government would leave them alone and let them live another day.
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I don't understand the confusion. It's not like Christianity has a law code or anything. They did away with any idea of "halacha." All a Christian has to do is believe in a certain story and call themself Christian- well, so what, that doesn't mean a person is going to act properly even if he believes a certain thing in his mind. I think it's very obvious why this can happen. Even if there were laws in place, not everyone can keep them, people mess up and do bad things. But when there is no law in place, all the moreso, there is nothing governing proper modes of behavior and it's anybody's guess to formulate the deeds they consider to fall in line with whatever the belief is in their head. That laxity or uncertainty in ethics creates a vacuum. All too often in history it was used by evil people (even priests like those pictured) to commit terrible deeds against Jews as supposedly in line with their beliefs and merely filling the ethical vacuum.
Actually Christians do have a story to go by its called the Old Testament. There is also the Ten Commandments. People should know whats right and wrong without religion micromanaging their every move. Actually written religious law can sometimes lead to problems like it does in the muslim religion.
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Btw Hitler loved Islam great article
It's a large article but Hitler was actually a dhimmi, hit link for full article
Albert Speer, who was Hitler’s Minister of Armaments and War Production, wrote a contrite memoir of his World War II experiences while serving a 20-year prison sentence imposed by the Nuremberg tribunal. Speer’s narrative includes a discussion which captures Hitler’s effusive praise for Islam, “…a religion that believed in spreading the faith by the sword and subjugating all nations to that faith. Such a creed was perfectly suited to the Germanic temperament.” Hitler, according to Speer’s account, repeatedly expressed the conviction that, “The Mohammedan religion…would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?” These sentiments were also expressed by Hitler to Dr. Herman Neubacher, the first Nazi Mayor of Vienna, and subsequently, a special delegate of the Nazi regime in southeastern Europe. Neubacher wrote that Hitler had told him Islam was a “male religion,” and reiterated the belief that the Germans would have been far more successful conquerors had they adopted Islam in the Middle Ages. Additional confirmation of Hitler’s very favorable inclination towards Islam is provided by General Alexander Loehr, a Lutwaffe commander (executed in 1947 for the mass-murders of Yugoslav civilians). Loehr maintained a smiling Hitler had told him that Islam was such a desirable creed the Fuehrer longed for it to become the official SS religion
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2008/10/22/hitler-and-jihad-part-1/
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You should also tell the person you were talking to to Google Haj Amin Al Husseini. He was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during WWII, and he was Yasser Arafat's uncle. This man was Hitler's special guest in Germany. He was was responsible for recruiting Bosnian Muslim SS units, and he wanted Hitler to kill the Jews of then Palestine, just like he was doing in Europe.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html
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Good, thankyou for the great articles, I still got no response, but I added these. hopefully I will get a response after this.
Yes, we should know in The Tanach,what G-d thinks and wants for us to do. We should not be following after a madman who wants to destroy Israel, that is for sure.
Those who don't know about history, are doomed to repeat it.
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oh yes, I was telling someone recently, that perhaps one of the reasons so many Jews had joined the SS army was for this very thing, to live longer. Sometimes you can't think straight when you are in survival mode like that, I dunno. Not making excuses for them at all, just thinking from their stand point a bit, perhaps. I am sure there was one or two who just joined to keep alive longer.
בס"S
Also, Nazism involves Christian concepts and you can't say this is fake:
(http://www.letsrollforums.com/Blog/priests-salute.jpg)
Nazism involves Nazi ideas......Hitler hand no use for churches or priests of any kind. He stated clearly that after he won the war he would destroy the church. He complained often that the church interfered with his policies and made it hard to fight the war as he wished. I am sure their were plenty of priests in Christian churches appeasing Hitler for a time hoping things would change and avoid being dragged off. Just as there was Jewish leaders in some Jewish Ghetto's during WW2 who did the same thing. It has nothing to do with being involved people were trying to buy time in hopes that the Nazi government would leave them alone and let them live another day.
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What do you mean Jews joined the SS??? That must be a typo.
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I was told that there was Jews that joined Hitler's military?
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WHY THE RADICAL TERRORIST MUSLIMS liked Hitler and STILL LIKE HIM today...... when he said he was a Christian? I'm trying to explain that Hitler was not a real Christian....just a fake one....
I THINK PEOPLE NEED TO BE MORE EDUCATED ABOUT THIS.....especially those who say that they LOVE Israel and LOVE G-d.
I tried to explain that they were anti-semetic and so was Hitler and that Hitler killed 6 million jews in the holocaust, but they dont seem to understand why the Muslims like Hitler to this day.
I showed them that video with all the pictures of them and Hitler and Hitler's books, but they are not understanding.
I just expained once again, that they want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth...HOPEFULLY it will sink in this time, I dunno. >:(
:o :o :o
help.
I don't think Hitler ever claimed to be a Christian. If anything the Nazis were pagans and they persecuted real Christians.
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I was told that there was Jews that joined Hitler's military?
yes it's true
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4QcgKUamBA&feature=related
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בס"ד
I was told that there was Jews that joined Hitler's military?
I bag your pardon?
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One thing I've noticed with anti-Semitic people is that their main focus, regardless of whatever else they say, is hating Jews.
I would be willing to bet that the average neo nazi who CLAIMS to be standing up for the white race would be more than willing to brutally murder an entire family of white people, father, mother, children, babies, and grandparents, if it meant they could then murder at least one Jew. Then they would blame the Jew they murdered for the death of that family and use it as an excuse to go after more Jews.
Anti-Semites stand for nothing but anti-Semitism. It consumes them, it's their main focus and goal in life, to wipe out all Jews. Muslims too will murder Muslims that they claim loyalty to. They will murder their own family to get at Jews. They have no loyalty to other Muslims or to themselves, if it means they can hurt Jews. If they can hurt a Jew in the process, they will blow themselves up, or send their own children to blow themselves up in order to hurt as many Jews as possible.
That's the one thing you have to understand about anti-Semites. They claim to stand for all kinds of things, but the only thing they care about is hurting or murdering Jews.
Yep.
David Duke would have relations with black males if it would kill or hurt Jews. (However, I suspect he does regardless.)
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One thing I've noticed with anti-Semitic people is that their main focus, regardless of whatever else they say, is hating Jews.
I would be willing to bet that the average neo nazi who CLAIMS to be standing up for the white race would be more than willing to brutally murder an entire family of white people, father, mother, children, babies, and grandparents, if it meant they could then murder at least one Jew. Then they would blame the Jew they murdered for the death of that family and use it as an excuse to go after more Jews.
Anti-Semites stand for nothing but anti-Semitism. It consumes them, it's their main focus and goal in life, to wipe out all Jews. Muslims too will murder Muslims that they claim loyalty to. They will murder their own family to get at Jews. They have no loyalty to other Muslims or to themselves, if it means they can hurt Jews. If they can hurt a Jew in the process, they will blow themselves up, or send their own children to blow themselves up in order to hurt as many Jews as possible.
That's the one thing you have to understand about anti-Semites. They claim to stand for all kinds of things, but the only thing they care about is hurting or murdering Jews.
בס''ד
Rubystars, what you have accurately described is the definition of Amalek. The Amalekites are so obsessed with Jew-hatred that they will even destroy their own people just to hurt Jews.
Pat Buchanan, David Duke and Ron Paul are white Amalekites who willingly endanger the survival of the American people just to undermine little Israel. These white Amalekites will defend the Muslim Nazis because the Muslim Nazis are trying to destroy Israel. The fact that the Muslim Nazis also seek to destroy America does not even concern traitors like Buchanan, Duke and Paul.
However, most white Americans are not Amalekites.
On the other hand, most blacks, Arabs and Muslims are Amalekites. They hate the Jews so much that they would be willing to see their own people slaughtered so long as Jews are also murdered, G-d forbid.
Most blacks do not care that millions of their people are being annihilated in the Sudan by the Arab Muslims. As long as the Arab Muslims work to destroy Israel and the Jews (and as long as the Arabs work to destroy America and the whites), the blacks will enthusiastically support their former Arab slaveowners.
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WHY THE RADICAL TERRORIST MUSLIMS liked Hitler and STILL LIKE HIM today...... when he said he was a Christian? I'm trying to explain that Hitler was not a real Christian....just a fake one....
I THINK PEOPLE NEED TO BE MORE EDUCATED ABOUT THIS.....especially those who say that they LOVE Israel and LOVE G-d.
I tried to explain that they were anti-semetic and so was Hitler and that Hitler killed 6 million jews in the holocaust, but they dont seem to understand why the Muslims like Hitler to this day.
I showed them that video with all the pictures of them and Hitler and Hitler's books, but they are not understanding.
I just expained once again, that they want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth...HOPEFULLY it will sink in this time, I dunno. >:(
:o :o :o
help.
I hate to be rude. But the only REAL 'Christian acting' Christians I have seen in this life, are here on this forum, and 2 of my dear friends.
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בס"ד
The reason is this:
(https://www.mijbookstore.com/ProdImages/NobleQur%27anEnglishOnly(HB).jpg)
Hannah, if you need any info about Islam (not radical Islam, there's only one Islam), why, where and what, I'm here.
Noble? There's nothing "Noble" about that damn book.
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I was told that there was Jews that joined Hitler's military?
What you said before is that "... many Jews joined joined the SS" couldn't be less accurate. There were in the Wehrmacht some assimilated Jews, they were mostly Christians, whose parent/s or grand parent/s had converted and assimilated. Very few cases are of real Jews who hid their identity and served in the Wehrmacht. In the SS they would normally only accept to their ranks prospects who could prove they are pure Arians. Germans with Jewish blood would be rejected from serving in the SS, but there were a few exceptions, and in these cases, these are not Jews but German with some Jewish ancestors.
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בס''ד
After Germany was defeated in 1945, many Germans claimed that they were never Nazis. They claimed that they only fought for Hitler because they were forced to, and because their lives would be in danger if they did not join the Nazi army.
This is a lie. Almost all Germans and Austrians enthusiastically supported Hitler and the Nazis during the war and enthusiastically participated in the holocaust.
The fact that Germany succeeded in conquering most of Europe and in waging war against the United States, the Soviet Union and Britain proves that German soldiers fought fanatically for a Nazi victory. Millions of German soldiers willingly gave their lives for the Nazi cause, as did millions of German civilians.
If the German people and army had not supported Hitler fanatically, there is no way Germany could have had so many military victories in the beginning of the war.
Also, the Germans bragged in their news media about how they were murdering millions of Jews in the holocaust. The Nazis wanted the German people to know about the holocaust because they knew that these crimes would be immensely popular in Germany and would be considered to be a great accomplishment.
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Rubystars, what you have accurately described is the definition of Amalek. The Amalekites are so obsessed with Jew-hatred that they will even destroy their own people just to hurt Jews.
That makes complete sense. One of the things I was trying to get at is that an anti-Semite will claim to stand for all kinds of things. They could say they are for right wing politics, like Pat Buchanan, or they could say they're pro-white, like David Duke, or they could say they're for smaller government, like Ron Paul. They could claim to be Christian, etc. It doesn't matter what they claim to stand for. Their primary goal in life and ONLY real philosophy is Jew hatred.
Of course this doesn't get Islam off the hook in any way. Islam's primary goal is to destroy all non-Muslims and ESPECIALLY Jewish people. So since Jew hatred is the core philosophy of Islam, then Islam itself is evil.
Most blacks do not care that millions of their people are being annihilated in the Sudan by the Arab Muslims. As long as the Arab Muslims work to destroy Israel and the Jews (and as long as the Arabs work to destroy America and the whites), the blacks will enthusiastically support their former Arab slaveowners.
That's a perfect example. It also reminds me of how the Nazi sites often show sympathy for the "plight" of the "Palestinians", but rarely or never mention the real horrors in Sudan.
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ok. Well, anyway, this person still does not know why a Muslim would follow after a so called Christian, who called himself Hitler, so I spelled it out for them, once again. whew.
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I don't understand the confusion. It's not like Christianity has a law code or anything. They did away with any idea of "halacha." All a Christian has to do is believe in a certain story and call themself Christian- well, so what, that doesn't mean a person is going to act properly even if he believes a certain thing in his mind. I think it's very obvious why this can happen. Even if there were laws in place, not everyone can keep them, people mess up and do bad things. But when there is no law in place, all the moreso, there is nothing governing proper modes of behavior and it's anybody's guess to formulate the deeds they consider to fall in line with whatever the belief is in their head. That laxity or uncertainty in ethics creates a vacuum. All too often in history it was used by evil people (even priests like those pictured) to commit terrible deeds against Jews as supposedly in line with their beliefs and merely filling the ethical vacuum.
Actually Christians do have a story to go by its called the Old Testament. There is also the Ten Commandments. People should know whats right and wrong without religion micromanaging their every move. Actually written religious law can sometimes lead to problems like it does in the muslim religion.
But they rejected the actual halacha of the "Tanach " saying that it's just metaphor and that so-and-so fulfilled all that for them already so they don't have to keep it. The fact is they don't have a real law code. That presents an opening for any odd action to be presented as fitting with their belief, even if some guy or some other Christian thinks it doesn't. I didn't say they didn't have a "story," I said they didn't have a law code. Big difference.
The comparison with Islam is not necessary here. In fact I'm not sure what you mean by that. No one can claim that a Muslim who eats pork is doing so in the name of Islam. No one can claim that a jihadist attack is NOT in the name of Islam. The lawcode establishes the parameters and boundaries of the religion. I think you failed to understand my comment. I was not saying "Christians are bad and did bad things because they don't have a lawcode." Not at all. What I'm saying is that govt leaders and even priests had an opening to claim any actions (even antisemitic and Jew-hating) as "in the name of their Christian religion" because there was no real law code.
Even if a religion has a lawcode, people can still behave badly. What I'm addressing is not, how can a person believe such-and-such but still do bad things, but more a question of, how can they claim that their bad behaviors fit with their religion. That is what sets it apart as a question specifically to Christianity, whereas you don't really have that question with a religion with a lawcode. Anyone can see whether it really fits or not if there is a lawcode (or at least have a general idea if not an expert in it.
And if Christianity persecutes Jews, of course Muslims will love it, even if it is outside the parameters of what Islam allows in terms of religious belief. Anything to itbach a yahoood is ok by them. So Hitler's y''s "Christianity" is something Muslims love, just like they love anything about Hitler y''s since he was a murderer of Jews. The person asking the question to hanna doesn't understand that just because someone ostensibly is "Christian" does not mean he won't exhibit behavior that a muslim barbarian will stand and cheer about. Because a wide range of actions can be called "Christian" by various people.
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I don't understand the confusion. It's not like Christianity has a law code or anything. They did away with any idea of "halacha." All a Christian has to do is believe in a certain story and call themself Christian- well, so what, that doesn't mean a person is going to act properly even if he believes a certain thing in his mind. I think it's very obvious why this can happen. Even if there were laws in place, not everyone can keep them, people mess up and do bad things. But when there is no law in place, all the moreso, there is nothing governing proper modes of behavior and it's anybody's guess to formulate the deeds they consider to fall in line with whatever the belief is in their head. That laxity or uncertainty in ethics creates a vacuum. All too often in history it was used by evil people (even priests like those pictured) to commit terrible deeds against Jews as supposedly in line with their beliefs and merely filling the ethical vacuum.
Actually Christians do have a story to go by its called the Old Testament. There is also the Ten Commandments. People should know whats right and wrong without religion micromanaging their every move. Actually written religious law can sometimes lead to problems like it does in the muslim religion.
But they rejected the actual halacha of the "Tanach " saying that it's just metaphor and that so-and-so fulfilled all that for them already so they don't have to keep it. The fact is they don't have a real law code. That presents an opening for any odd action to be presented as fitting with their belief, even if some guy or some other Christian thinks it doesn't. I didn't say they didn't have a "story," I said they didn't have a law code. Big difference.
The comparison with Islam is not necessary here. In fact I'm not sure what you mean by that. No one can claim that a Muslim who eats pork is doing so in the name of Islam. No one can claim that a jihadist attack is NOT in the name of Islam. The lawcode establishes the parameters and boundaries of the religion. I think you failed to understand my comment. I was not saying "Christians are bad and did bad things because they don't have a lawcode." Not at all. What I'm saying is that govt leaders and even priests had an opening to claim any actions (even antisemitic and Jew-hating) as "in the name of their Christian religion" because there was no real law code.
Even if a religion has a lawcode, people can still behave badly. What I'm addressing is not, how can a person believe such-and-such but still do bad things, but more a question of, how can they claim that their bad behaviors fit with their religion. That is what sets it apart as a question specifically to Christianity, whereas you don't really have that question with a religion with a lawcode. Anyone can see whether it really fits or not if there is a lawcode (or at least have a general idea if not an expert in it.
And if Christianity persecutes Jews, of course Muslims will love it, even if it is outside the parameters of what Islam allows in terms of religious belief. Anything to itbach a yahoood is ok by them. So Hitler's y''s "Christianity" is something Muslims love, just like they love anything about Hitler y''s since he was a murderer of Jews. The person asking the question to hanna doesn't understand that just because someone ostensibly is "Christian" does not mean he won't exhibit behavior that a muslim barbarian will stand and cheer about. Because a wide range of actions can be called "Christian" by various people.
The Ten Commandments that Christians should follow should really be enough to keep them on the right path in life. True it is nothing like the 613 that the Jewish faith is required to keep however it does give people a basic guideline to follow should they chose to do so. The problem comes in when people use religion to accomplish evil things they feel are justified that go against even this basic set of rules. What would be the difference if there are 10 or 613 or even a 1000 if people chose to ignore them. The reason I brought up the Muslim faith is the fact that their Koran has a multitude of religious laws that can actually be looked at by an outsider as being evil. On some points I agree with what you are saying however to say Christianity is a lawless faith really is somewhat insulting. The rules are there for G-d fearing people to follow if they choose to do so. Christians who don't or do things in the name of G-d that are evil will then have to answer to G-d in the end.
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Very true....
I don't understand the confusion. It's not like Christianity has a law code or anything. They did away with any idea of "halacha." All a Christian has to do is believe in a certain story and call themself Christian- well, so what, that doesn't mean a person is going to act properly even if he believes a certain thing in his mind. I think it's very obvious why this can happen. Even if there were laws in place, not everyone can keep them, people mess up and do bad things. But when there is no law in place, all the moreso, there is nothing governing proper modes of behavior and it's anybody's guess to formulate the deeds they consider to fall in line with whatever the belief is in their head. That laxity or uncertainty in ethics creates a vacuum. All too often in history it was used by evil people (even priests like those pictured) to commit terrible deeds against Jews as supposedly in line with their beliefs and merely filling the ethical vacuum.
Actually Christians do have a story to go by its called the Old Testament. There is also the Ten Commandments. People should know whats right and wrong without religion micromanaging their every move. Actually written religious law can sometimes lead to problems like it does in the muslim religion.
But they rejected the actual halacha of the "Tanach " saying that it's just metaphor and that so-and-so fulfilled all that for them already so they don't have to keep it. The fact is they don't have a real law code. That presents an opening for any odd action to be presented as fitting with their belief, even if some guy or some other Christian thinks it doesn't. I didn't say they didn't have a "story," I said they didn't have a law code. Big difference.
The comparison with Islam is not necessary here. In fact I'm not sure what you mean by that. No one can claim that a Muslim who eats pork is doing so in the name of Islam. No one can claim that a jihadist attack is NOT in the name of Islam. The lawcode establishes the parameters and boundaries of the religion. I think you failed to understand my comment. I was not saying "Christians are bad and did bad things because they don't have a lawcode." Not at all. What I'm saying is that govt leaders and even priests had an opening to claim any actions (even antisemitic and Jew-hating) as "in the name of their Christian religion" because there was no real law code.
Even if a religion has a lawcode, people can still behave badly. What I'm addressing is not, how can a person believe such-and-such but still do bad things, but more a question of, how can they claim that their bad behaviors fit with their religion. That is what sets it apart as a question specifically to Christianity, whereas you don't really have that question with a religion with a lawcode. Anyone can see whether it really fits or not if there is a lawcode (or at least have a general idea if not an expert in it.
And if Christianity persecutes Jews, of course Muslims will love it, even if it is outside the parameters of what Islam allows in terms of religious belief. Anything to itbach a yahoood is ok by them. So Hitler's y''s "Christianity" is something Muslims love, just like they love anything about Hitler y''s since he was a murderer of Jews. The person asking the question to hanna doesn't understand that just because someone ostensibly is "Christian" does not mean he won't exhibit behavior that a muslim barbarian will stand and cheer about. Because a wide range of actions can be called "Christian" by various people.
The Ten Commandments that Christians should follow should really be enough to keep them on the right path in life. True it is nothing like the 613 that the Jewish faith is required to keep however it does give people a basic guideline to follow should they chose to do so. The problem comes in when people use religion to accomplish evil things they feel are justified that go against even this basic set of rules. What would be the difference if there are 10 or 613 or even a 1000 if people chose to ignore them. The reason I brought up the Muslim faith is the fact that their Koran has a multitude of religious laws that can actually be looked at by an outsider as being evil. On some points I agree with what you are saying however to say Christianity is a lawless faith really is somewhat insulting. The rules are there for G-d fearing people to follow if they choose to do so. Christians who don't or do things in the name of G-d that are evil will then have to answer to G-d in the end.
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You explained that very well cjd! Any Christian that uses evil for their agenda in the name of Christianity is breaking the 10 Commandments and a hypocrite in my eyes. Just because you "pray" every day and go to church, does NOT make you a Christian, it is the way you live and act each day. This is NOT fact, but just my opinion!
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death to islam.
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Hanna,
I would lose these Christians because you can't talk sense to fools, pray for God to take the scales off their eyes and open their ears to see the truth.
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Christians are supposed to believe the greatest commandment is to love other people.
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Hanna,
I would lose these Christians because you can't talk sense to fools, pray for G-d to take the scales off their eyes and open their ears to see the truth.
At some point all you can do is to pray for people. There's no point in going on and on with the same people sometimes if they refuse to accept reality about the evils of Islam.
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בס"S
Also, Nazism involves Christian concepts and you can't say this is fake:
(http://www.letsrollforums.com/Blog/priests-salute.jpg)
Well the picture is black and white thus nazi era and as the other guy said they were probably forced to do the sign and show allegiance for their own survival (and also those persecuted they were harbouring and saving from massacre).No offense what about the jews that were handling other jewish people go to death in concentration camps...what were they called..it was for selfishness and personal survival or deep fear of death and rather letting others die than die yourself i guess.
but remember the picture is during the nazi era and rome was under nazi and all catholics in europe under the stronghold of adolf hitler. hitler as far as i know hated the church and christians he was pagan and obsessed with such pagan symbols and stars and what not.
So the question really is...is pope benedict anti semite..and if he is would all christians do what he says and be anti-semite and massacre innocent jews. You find good people and evil people in all races/religions i guess some more evil than other such as :EVIL ISLAMMMMMMMMM! so christians and jewish people should unite and not fight..the most horrible religion in the world torture to your own people fascist in its policies, massacre to all non believers : ISLAM
remember there are a lot of christians fighting in the middle east who only believe in the 10 commandments or in short love thy neighbour as thyslf. As far as i'm concerned the muslims are not keeping with this fate they have shown again and again their hatred while israel was all the time trying to find compromises. After all you also have to protect yourself your loved ones and those who want peace like yourself. So re palestinian issue yes it pains to see dead children/wome and shame on muslims using children/women as shields or for sympathy. Israel had every right to protect itself.
also please remember many christians died in ww2
5,933,900 actually if one is to trust wikipedia 'the holocaust'
quote*
Non Jewish victims
Note: Scholars differ on whether the definition of the Holocaust should also include the millions of non-Jewish victims of Nazi genocide.[3]
so remember that probably half europe like the british etc . (ps. my country malta suffered also becuase we choose the allies sidenot mussolini's or hitler's) were fighting against nazism on your side against nazi germans . But now the new threath is islamism and their fanatic ruthless suicidal religion.
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Whatever excuses are made for those who live in that era, don't really matter as long as the RCC has refused to excommunicate Hitler. To this day, he's still in good standing.
That's absolutely horrible.
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But they rejected the actual halacha of the "Tanach " saying that it's just metaphor and that so-and-so fulfilled all that for them already so they don't have to keep it. The fact is they don't have a real law code. That presents an opening for any odd action to be presented as fitting with their belief, even if some guy or some other Christian thinks it doesn't. I didn't say they didn't have a "story," I said they didn't have a law code. Big difference.
The comparison with Islam is not necessary here. In fact I'm not sure what you mean by that. No one can claim that a Muslim who eats pork is doing so in the name of Islam. No one can claim that a jihadist attack is NOT in the name of Islam. The lawcode establishes the parameters and boundaries of the religion. I think you failed to understand my comment. I was not saying "Christians are bad and did bad things because they don't have a lawcode." Not at all. What I'm saying is that govt leaders and even priests had an opening to claim any actions (even antisemitic and Jew-hating) as "in the name of their Christian religion" because there was no real law code.
Even if a religion has a lawcode, people can still behave badly. What I'm addressing is not, how can a person believe such-and-such but still do bad things, but more a question of, how can they claim that their bad behaviors fit with their religion. That is what sets it apart as a question specifically to Christianity, whereas you don't really have that question with a religion with a lawcode. Anyone can see whether it really fits or not if there is a lawcode (or at least have a general idea if not an expert in it.
And if Christianity persecutes Jews, of course Muslims will love it, even if it is outside the parameters of what Islam allows in terms of religious belief. Anything to itbach a yahoood is ok by them. So Hitler's y''s "Christianity" is something Muslims love, just like they love anything about Hitler y''s since he was a murderer of Jews. The person asking the question to hanna doesn't understand that just because someone ostensibly is "Christian" does not mean he won't exhibit behavior that a muslim barbarian will stand and cheer about. Because a wide range of actions can be called "Christian" by various people.
I have a little bit of training in Christian theology, so let me try to handle this. If any of this appears offensive please don't take it as such, I am just trying to explain where "we" come from.
1: All orthodox (orthodox as in mainstream/theologically standard, not Orthodox the denomination) Christianity accepts that the written Law was/is all the word of G-d and literally true and binding at least for a period or epoch. Even though Christians do not practice most of it, all of us who are genuine about our faith at least respect its place and role in the Bible. In fact, Christians generally believe that prior to Jesus, the entire Torah was binding on all human beings for salvation (i.e. we don't have a concept of "righteous Gentiles" per se). Most Christians today would say that the "distinctive" laws of Torah (i.e. those that are considered to only apply to Jews) are not incumbent upon anybody for salvation. We do feel that all of the Noahide Laws, or what correspond to them (we don't call them that though) ARE binding upon all human beings, although we would consider living them out a sign of being "saved", not a means in and of themselves to go to heaven. A simplified form of the 7NLs is found in the New Testament verse, Acts 15:29. Some Christian groups, such as the Adventists and some of the Messianics, do attempt to practice varying degrees of halacha or even argue that they are necessary for salvation (I don't agree with these groups).
As far as I know there is no single Christian position on the Oral Torah or Mishnahs. There are many different opinions about them in our faith, but we have not formulated a formal stance about it.
2: Overall you are correct that we don't have a "law code" (and I do believe that that comes directly from the N.T.), but it depends on what Christians you talk to. Catholicism does have a "law code" in that the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is considered to be the binding and inerrant/infallible word of G-d and the pontiff is likewise incontrovertible, speaking directly from G-d. However, Catholic teaching and doctrine has changed somewhat over the centuries. Orthodox Christianity is similar to Catholicism but somewhat less formal--instead of placing ultimate reliance on patriarchal (their equivalent of the pope) or bishopric teaching, they place their highest value in liturgy (devotional literature and music) and decisions reached by popular consensus within the church. Protestants are a whole other ballgame--most of us (I am a Protestant by definition) do not put any absolute value in any institution other than the Bible ("sola scriptura"). You could say that we view the Bible and N.T. in particular as a "law code", I suppose, but we put emphasis on faith lived-out more than following rules per se, even the ones that are extremely obvious (i.e. no immorality, murder, stealing, etc.).
3: I agree naturally that Christianity in general needs to be made painfully aware of the millenia of horrific anti-Semitism that has taken place in the name of Jesus, but I think that it is absolutely possible to make a distinction between so-called "Christian anti-Semitism" and Islamic anti-Semitism. The difference is that the Christian holy Scripture (the N.T.) does not call on anybody to abuse or persecute Jews, whereas the Koran obviously does. Yes, I am aware that the N.T. says things that are very problematic to Jews (i.e. that they are wrong to reject Jesus), but that does not translate to going out and harming or murdering them, especially when the apostle Paul took severe pains to warn the Gentile Christians that they are adopted stepchildren compared to the real, original Chosen people (Romans 11). I think that the behavior alone of the medieval pogromists (i.e. murder, rape, pillaging) should be enough to demonstrate that for whatever reason, be it extreme ignorance/primitiveness or deliberate disobedience of it (probably both), they were not in any way living out the true values of the N.T. The same applies, of course, to the German Nazis.
Yes, I know full well that the above is of little consolation to the millions of Jews who have been martyred in the name of Christianity...
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בס"S
Also, Nazism involves Christian concepts and you can't say this is fake:
(http://www.letsrollforums.com/Blog/priests-salute.jpg)
I think there is a point of Christianity, that has something to do with National Socialism and it is the Messianic concept. The people choose a wrong Messiah and project all their hopes and desires in him. Unlike in Communism who aims at salvation without god too, Naziism is without this central figure, in this case Hitler, not possible.
Then there has an aberration happened in most Christian countries, which not happened in the USA and this is the conjunction of ecclesia and state. In fact the great churches in Europe, Protestants as well as Catholics, get most of their money from the gouvernment since the secularisation in 16th-19th century. Protestants had the chance to start new in 16th century, but mainly Luther fought independet church communities and made the political ruler of the particular country the head of the Lutherian church.
Half gouvernmental churches in Europe are not able to pay their loans, their morgages, their energy and of cause their restauration costs for their old buildings by the contributions of their members. So today you see the blessing or marriage of homosexual couples, bolschewist liberation theology, feminist theology and so on, because they have to dance by the pipe of Zeitgeist in order to get money from the political powers. In other times you see the Nazi salute. They are corrupted.
In the USA you have all this problems too, but in fact they are concerning only miniority groups like black churches, progressive leftist churches, the KKK white supremacist churches and so on. They are not able to become the majority, because they depend on their members. This means, that they have to convince people to their special theology and this is more difficult, the more "special teachings" you try to sell. Imo this churches are only growing by births if they are growing at all.
The Jewish communities in Germany have since a few years the same status, like the Christian communities. Since then, a part of their leadership is defending Islam and Homosexuality. But their main focus is on Islam. Henryk M. Broder pointed out, that radical Islam is for shure not the allie of Jews against racism and antisemitism. He was so frustrated about this attitude, that he declared his own candidateship for the chairman of the central council of Jews in Germany. After this made massive headlines, he stepped back and he said, that he wanted to start primarily a discussion about the issue. He got a lot of support from other prominent Jews.
This phenomenon of Christians joining criminal ideologies is of cause a Christian problem. This people who do the Nazi salute are per self-definition Christians. So imo they stand there as Christians and their behaviour is then Christian. But not all what is Christian is sacred (geistlich).
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The Ten Commandments that Christians should follow should really be enough to keep them on the right path in life. True it is nothing like the 613 that the Jewish faith is required to keep however it does give people a basic guideline to follow should they chose to do so. The problem comes in when people use religion to accomplish evil things they feel are justified that go against even this basic set of rules. What would be the difference if there are 10 or 613 or even a 1000 if people chose to ignore them. The reason I brought up the Muslim faith is the fact that their Koran has a multitude of religious laws that can actually be looked at by an outsider as being evil. On some points I agree with what you are saying however to say Christianity is a lawless faith really is somewhat insulting. The rules are there for G-d fearing people to follow if they choose to do so. Christians who don't or do things in the name of G-d that are evil will then have to answer to G-d in the end.
Where is it said that those are binding on them? If none of the law is binding, none of it is. They didn't just annul some of it but say oh wait but these handful are absolutely divinely binding. They decided that the Torah with its mitzvot is metaphorical. Anyway, they are not Jews so must of it is not binding on them in the first place.
They don't claim to keep Shabbath do they? That is one of the 10 commandments. I'm not sure why you are arguing this point. The simple fact is there is not a law code. Having a general set of guildelines like the 10 commandments is not a law code. It's not the same thing. That is not an attack on them it's just stating a fact, so why do you feel the need to "defend" that or say that there is one? Where is the Christian version of "Talmud" ? Don't see one. Just a fact, that's all. That's not the reason why Jews don't believe in Christianity so I'm not sure why the dispute over this.
What would be the difference if there are 10 or 613 or even a 1000 if people chose to ignore them.
You are completely missing my point. I will have to quote what I said above which has already addressed this.
I said "Even if a religion has a lawcode, people can still behave badly. What I'm addressing is not, how can a person believe such-and-such but still do bad things, but more a question of, how can they claim that their bad behaviors fit with their religion. That is what sets it apart as a question specifically to Christianity, whereas you don't really have that question with a religion with a lawcode. Anyone can see whether it really fits or not if there is a lawcode (or at least have a general idea if not an expert in it.
And if Christianity persecutes Jews (or someone's version of Christianity does so), of course Muslims will love it,"
however to say Christianity is a lawless faith really is somewhat insulting.
What? Are you serious? First of all, you used the term "lawless," not me, but the fact is there is NOT a Christian lawcode that clearly defines the religion. That is a fact, and if you're uncomfortable with the facts, you can't blame me for that or say that I'm insulting you. That fact explains how there are so many variant strains of Christianity... they are all coming to fill the vacuum and define things in a more set way.
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I really didn't know Christians are supposed to obey the 10 commandments. There are at least two commandments Christians don't seem to observe: The Sabbath, and the prohibition of making statues and images.
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בס"ד
I really didn't know it either. As a former-Christian, I know Christians can choose between being secular and being religious according to Christianity, that it's the individual's business (unlike in Judaism where Secularism doesn't exist).
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dont christians /catholics have sunday instead of sabbath .. i know they dont stop from work etc but it was and still is considered a day of god and rest from work .just got the day different instead of saturday sunday...christianity cannot be so restrictive anymore since western world has evolved and atheism plays a big role ..so everything the church/pope says would immediately be regarded as a threath...if the pope says something against condoms they imediately say the pope wants to spread hiv bla bla bla..western world evolved too much to be so conservative.
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I really didn't know it either. As a former-Christian, I know Christians can choose between being secular and being religious according to Christianity, that it's the individual's business (unlike in Judaism where Secularism doesn't exist).
Christians aren't supposed to be secular any more than Jews are.
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בס"ד
I really didn't know it either. As a former-Christian, I know Christians can choose between being secular and being religious according to Christianity, that it's the individual's business (unlike in Judaism where Secularism doesn't exist).
Yes Christians can choose to be secular just like Jewish people can but that would make them both sinners. Secularism doesn't exist in Judaism?.... Come to New York I will show it to you first hand. Finding totally observant Jews here is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I don't want to be even more insulting so I will not go further in this thread but some of the statements made here in this thread really show a level of ignorance. Let me go and dust off my idols and see if there are any others I need for my collection. I must be missing the idol that wards off the stupidity of others.... Anyway... All I can say is people that live in glass houses should not toss stones.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
I really didn't know it either. As a former-Christian, I know Christians can choose between being secular and being religious according to Christianity, that it's the individual's business (unlike in Judaism where Secularism doesn't exist).
Yes Christians can choose to be secular just like Jewish people can but that would make them both sinners. Secularism doesn't exist in Judaism?.... Come to New York I will show it to you first hand. Finding totally observant Jews here is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I don't want to be even more insulting so I will not go further in this thread but some of the statements made here in this thread really show a level of ignorance. Let me go and dust off my idols and see if there are any others I need for my collection. I must be missing the idol that wards off the stupidity of others.... Anyway... All I can say is people that live in glass houses should not toss stones.
You didn't understand my point. "Secularism" is a Christian term that doesn't exist and is NOT an option in Judaism. There's no ligitimacy for "secularism". The fact that there are "secular" (I'd rather use the term "Tinok She'nishba" or "Apikoros/Kofer" doesn't mean that in Judaism (which is not even a religion) such option exists.
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בס"ד
I really didn't know it either. As a former-Christian, I know Christians can choose between being secular and being religious according to Christianity, that it's the individual's business (unlike in Judaism where Secularism doesn't exist).
Yes Christians can choose to be secular just like Jewish people can but that would make them both sinners. Secularism doesn't exist in Judaism?.... Come to New York I will show it to you first hand. Finding totally observant Jews here is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I don't want to be even more insulting so I will not go further in this thread but some of the statements made here in this thread really show a level of ignorance. Let me go and dust off my idols and see if there are any others I need for my collection. I must be missing the idol that wards off the stupidity of others.... Anyway... All I can say is people that live in glass houses should not toss stones.
:::D
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No, there is no such thing as "secularism" within Torah or Judaism. Not sure why people are getting oversensitive here. There ARE some sects of Christianity that believe in the permissibility of "icons," and there are some strands of Christianity that proudly display carved effiges, and also construct "statues" - I've seen them with my own eyes in college campus.... So what is the glass-house issue about this? You've seen Jews walking around eating pork sandwich? Sad, and of course that exists, but that's not Judaism (and neither will the ham-eater claim that it is).
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Saying there's a difference in the religions should not be taken as an insult because it's merely a fact. Chaim has stated many times these facts exist. Why should we try to cover them up or get offended about them?
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"Secularism" is a Christian term that doesn't exist and is NOT an option in Judaism. There's no ligitimacy for "secularism". The fact that there are "secular" (I'd rather use the term "Tinok She'nishba" or "Apikoros/Kofer" doesn't mean that in Judaism (which is not even a religion) such option exists.
I don't know what you mean that it is a "Christian" term, but secularism is not a lifestyle option in Christianity, either. The fact that hundreds of millions of Christians choose to be secular is not a good thing and is not at all permitted in the New Testament.
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DBF, can you please explain to me how the two commandments I mentioned (keeping the Sabbath, not making statues, masks, images) are valid to Christians ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there are certain Christian sects who observe some sort of Sabbath.
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FYI: anyone who murdur's Jew's in the name of Christianity, are NOT REAL CHRISTIANS in my book.
But they rejected the actual halacha of the "Tanach " saying that it's just metaphor and that so-and-so fulfilled all that for them already so they don't have to keep it. The fact is they don't have a real law code. That presents an opening for any odd action to be presented as fitting with their belief, even if some guy or some other Christian thinks it doesn't. I didn't say they didn't have a "story," I said they didn't have a law code. Big difference.
The comparison with Islam is not necessary here. In fact I'm not sure what you mean by that. No one can claim that a Muslim who eats pork is doing so in the name of Islam. No one can claim that a jihadist attack is NOT in the name of Islam. The lawcode establishes the parameters and boundaries of the religion. I think you failed to understand my comment. I was not saying "Christians are bad and did bad things because they don't have a lawcode." Not at all. What I'm saying is that govt leaders and even priests had an opening to claim any actions (even antisemitic and Jew-hating) as "in the name of their Christian religion" because there was no real law code.
Even if a religion has a lawcode, people can still behave badly. What I'm addressing is not, how can a person believe such-and-such but still do bad things, but more a question of, how can they claim that their bad behaviors fit with their religion. That is what sets it apart as a question specifically to Christianity, whereas you don't really have that question with a religion with a lawcode. Anyone can see whether it really fits or not if there is a lawcode (or at least have a general idea if not an expert in it.
And if Christianity persecutes Jews, of course Muslims will love it, even if it is outside the parameters of what Islam allows in terms of religious belief. Anything to itbach a yahoood is ok by them. So Hitler's y''s "Christianity" is something Muslims love, just like they love anything about Hitler y''s since he was a murderer of Jews. The person asking the question to hanna doesn't understand that just because someone ostensibly is "Christian" does not mean he won't exhibit behavior that a muslim barbarian will stand and cheer about. Because a wide range of actions can be called "Christian" by various people.
I have a little bit of training in Christian theology, so let me try to handle this. If any of this appears offensive please don't take it as such, I am just trying to explain where "we" come from.
1: All orthodox (orthodox as in mainstream/theologically standard, not Orthodox the denomination) Christianity accepts that the written Law was/is all the word of G-d and literally true and binding at least for a period or epoch. Even though Christians do not practice most of it, all of us who are genuine about our faith at least respect its place and role in the Bible. In fact, Christians generally believe that prior to Jesus, the entire Torah was binding on all human beings for salvation (i.e. we don't have a concept of "righteous Gentiles" per se). Most Christians today would say that the "distinctive" laws of Torah (i.e. those that are considered to only apply to Jews) are not incumbent upon anybody for salvation. We do feel that all of the Noahide Laws, or what correspond to them (we don't call them that though) ARE binding upon all human beings, although we would consider living them out a sign of being "saved", not a means in and of themselves to go to heaven. A simplified form of the 7NLs is found in the New Testament verse, Acts 15:29. Some Christian groups, such as the Adventists and some of the Messianics, do attempt to practice varying degrees of halacha or even argue that they are necessary for salvation (I don't agree with these groups).
As far as I know there is no single Christian position on the Oral Torah or Mishnahs. There are many different opinions about them in our faith, but we have not formulated a formal stance about it.
2: Overall you are correct that we don't have a "law code" (and I do believe that that comes directly from the N.T.), but it depends on what Christians you talk to. Catholicism does have a "law code" in that the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is considered to be the binding and inerrant/infallible word of G-d and the pontiff is likewise incontrovertible, speaking directly from G-d. However, Catholic teaching and doctrine has changed somewhat over the centuries. Orthodox Christianity is similar to Catholicism but somewhat less formal--instead of placing ultimate reliance on patriarchal (their equivalent of the pope) or bishopric teaching, they place their highest value in liturgy (devotional literature and music) and decisions reached by popular consensus within the church. Protestants are a whole other ballgame--most of us (I am a Protestant by definition) do not put any absolute value in any institution other than the Bible ("sola scriptura"). You could say that we view the Bible and N.T. in particular as a "law code", I suppose, but we put emphasis on faith lived-out more than following rules per se, even the ones that are extremely obvious (i.e. no immorality, murder, stealing, etc.).
3: I agree naturally that Christianity in general needs to be made painfully aware of the millenia of horrific anti-Semitism that has taken place in the name of Jesus, but I think that it is absolutely possible to make a distinction between so-called "Christian anti-Semitism" and Islamic anti-Semitism. The difference is that the Christian holy Scripture (the N.T.) does not call on anybody to abuse or persecute Jews, whereas the Koran obviously does. Yes, I am aware that the N.T. says things that are very problematic to Jews (i.e. that they are wrong to reject Jesus), but that does not translate to going out and harming or murdering them, especially when the apostle Paul took severe pains to warn the Gentile Christians that they are adopted stepchildren compared to the real, original Chosen people (Romans 11). I think that the behavior alone of the medieval pogromists (i.e. murder, rape, pillaging) should be enough to demonstrate that for whatever reason, be it extreme ignorance/primitiveness or deliberate disobedience of it (probably both), they were not in any way living out the true values of the N.T. The same applies, of course, to the German Nazis.
Yes, I know full well that the above is of little consolation to the millions of Jews who have been martyred in the name of Christianity...
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PLEASE NOTE: I did not intend to start WWIII by starting this thread.
I wonder if I should start any more threads, ever again. :o
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PLEASE NOTE: I did not intend to start WWIII by starting this thread.
I wonder if I should start any more threads, ever again. :o
Don't worry about it Hanna, when people are looking for a fight the excuse will ALWAYS pop up, it's a miracle really... NOT.
But correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think this thread has reached war levels. It's a heated discussion at the most.
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DBF, can you please explain to me how the two commandments I mentioned (keeping the Sabbath, not making statues, masks, images) are valid to Christians ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there are certain Christian sects who observe some sort of Sabbath.
That depends on the Christian you talk to. By and large Christians think of the Sabbath as an ideal, but not an absolute commandment (since Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around). There are some that teach that you absolutely must not work on Sundays (a pretty small minority), and still a few others that try to observe the Jewish Shabbat, such as Adventists (who I think are rather cultlike).
As for why Christians generally think that it is okay to make depictions of G-d, I believe that the answer is that we have always interpreted "thou shalt not make graven images" as referring to idols or pagan deities, not the true G-d.
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DBF, can you please explain to me how the two commandments I mentioned (keeping the Sabbath, not making statues, masks, images) are valid to Christians ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there are certain Christian sects who observe some sort of Sabbath.
That depends on the Christian you talk to. By and large Christians think of the Sabbath as an ideal, but not an absolute commandment (since Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around). There are some that teach that you absolutely must not work on Sundays (a pretty small minority), and still a few others that try to observe the Jewish Shabbat, such as Adventists (who I think are rather cultlike).
As for why Christians generally think that it is okay to make depictions of G-d, I believe that the answer is that we have always interpreted "thou shalt not make graven images" as referring to idols or pagan deities, not the true G-d.
Thanks for clearing that out DBF.
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No prob.
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I really didn't know Christians are supposed to obey the 10 commandments. There are at least two commandments Christians don't seem to observe: The Sabbath, and the prohibition of making statues and images.
I think the ten commandments are given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. They are not given to the gentiles. Althrough we can see the will of god through the ten commandments because it is the same god for Christians and Jews.
But I think we have to differ between those commandments who apply only to the Jews and those who apply to all.
There is nothing wrong with having one day to rest for Christians. But the Jewish Sabbat is more than simply resting. Of cause the special Jewish rules of Sabbat doesn't apply to the Christians. On the other hand the Christian Sunday is more a day of assembly and worship than resting.
In the case of statues and images it applies to all. So imo it is not suitable to have statues and crosses in places of Christian worship.
Some Christians say, that they are only symbols, but this is imo a bad excuse. Reformed Christian churches have no cross or no images and statues. In fact they are unneccessary, because there is no text in the NT that advocates it.
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Interesting. This is the first time I hear there exists a church without crosses and images.
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I really didn't know Christians are supposed to obey the 10 commandments. There are at least two commandments Christians don't seem to observe: The Sabbath, and the prohibition of making statues and images.
I think the ten commandments are given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. They are not given to the gentiles. Althrough we can see the will of G-d through the ten commandments because it is the same G-d for Christians and Jews.
But I think we have to differ between those commandments who apply only to the Jews and those who apply to all.
There is nothing wrong with having one day to rest for Christians. But the Jewish Sabbat is more than simply resting. Of cause the special Jewish rules of Sabbat doesn't apply to the Christians. On the other hand the Christian Sunday is more a day of assembly and worship than resting.
In the case of statues and images it applies to all. So imo it is not suitable to have statues and crosses in places of Christian worship.
Some Christians say, that they are only symbols, but this is imo a bad excuse. Reformed Christian churches have no cross or no images and statues. In fact they are unneccessary, because there is no text in the NT that advocates it.
Ulli I always appreciate your enlightening comments. I happen to agree very much with what you wrote in regards to the non-Jewish relation to the 10 commandments.
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what about jewish symbols like the menorah. i think every religion has its symbols. and Magein David?
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what about jewish symbols like the menorah. i think every religion has its symbols. and Magein David?
These are not depiction of G-d, they are just abstract symbols. In a Jewish synagogue you want find images of people, animals, angels or things like this so there won't be even the appearance that we pray to such images.
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what about jewish symbols like the menorah. i think every religion has its symbols. and Magein David?
These are not depiction of G-d, they are just abstract symbols. In a Jewish synagogue you want find images of people, animals, angels or things like this so there won't be even the appearance that we pray to such images.
A cross is not an "image" to Christians. If you see someone wearing a cross, it's not different from seeing someone wear the Star of David, don't you think? If Jesus or God is on the cross, it's called a Crucifix and those should NOT be worn. The only place they should be, is on a rosary or in a church. The reason for this, is to remind Christians the He died for OUR sins. I hope this helps a bit!
BTW I see no one getting offended or angry here, discussions are GOOD to help others know the TRUTH. But as far as I'm concerned, religions are VERY confusing! I believe in and live by the 7 Laws of Noah AND the 10 Commandments. If only everyone did!
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yes....
what about jewish symbols like the menorah. i think every religion has its symbols. and Magein David?
These are not depiction of G-d, they are just abstract symbols. In a Jewish synagogue you want find images of people, animals, angels or things like this so there won't be even the appearance that we pray to such images.
A cross is not an "image" to Christians. If you see someone wearing a cross, it's not different from seeing someone wear the Star of David, don't you think? If Jesus or G-d is on the cross, it's called a Crucifix and those should NOT be worn. The only place they should be, is on a rosary or in a church. The reason for this, is to remind Christians the He died for OUR sins. I hope this helps a bit!
BTW I see no one getting offended or angry here, discussions are GOOD to help others know the TRUTH. But as far as I'm concerned, religions are VERY confusing! I believe in and live by the 7 Laws of Noah AND the 10 Commandments. If only everyone did!
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we are not supposed to follow the ten commandements? why not?
I thought we were.....why do we study the tenach about Moses then?
I really didn't know Christians are supposed to obey the 10 commandments. There are at least two commandments Christians don't seem to observe: The Sabbath, and the prohibition of making statues and images.
I think the ten commandments are given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. They are not given to the gentiles. Althrough we can see the will of G-d through the ten commandments because it is the same G-d for Christians and Jews.
But I think we have to differ between those commandments who apply only to the Jews and those who apply to all.
There is nothing wrong with having one day to rest for Christians. But the Jewish Sabbat is more than simply resting. Of cause the special Jewish rules of Sabbat doesn't apply to the Christians. On the other hand the Christian Sunday is more a day of assembly and worship than resting.
In the case of statues and images it applies to all. So imo it is not suitable to have statues and crosses in places of Christian worship.
Some Christians say, that they are only symbols, but this is imo a bad excuse. Reformed Christian churches have no cross or no images and statues. In fact they are unneccessary, because there is no text in the NT that advocates it.
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Wow, the post I posted, ended up turing into a fight. Then someone else jumped in defending neither side and others jumped in and agreed, I jumped in and said "sorry you don't believe what God says about His people and their land" now I'm being ignored... :laugh: :::D
it makes me angry though. >:(
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Well Hanna, like I said before, I don't think this thread turned into a fight thread, but the discussion on the thread seems to have naturally exhausted itself :)
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not here, the thread where I was posting the information about the Muslims being Nazis, that is why I asked this question and started this thread.
THAT is where the other stuff is going on.
Well Hanna, like I said before, I don't think this thread turned into a fight thread, but the discussion on the thread seems to have naturally exhausted itself :)
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I'm staying out of it, I'm not saying one word.........not one.
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i will not post my opinion on sensitive issues as it seems my opinion is not going down well so I will stick to issues regarding muslims only. whenever the issues are about jewish/christian confrontations or why people hate jews etc my opinion on the issues are not going down well and my account was being revised so I wont comment anymore on such hot issues.