JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: SW on January 07, 2010, 05:20:35 AM
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Cursing another Jew is forbidden; even one who doesn't hear the curse or who cannot hear the curse.
One may not even curse oneself.
One who curses another using the name of God - even in English - deserves 39 lashes from Bet Din.
Applies to everybody, everywhere, always
Verse: "Do not curse the deaf" (Vayikra 19:4)
Source: The Chafetz-Chaim's Sefer haMitzvot haKatzar; Prohibition 45
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But we curse malshinim and God's enemies in the prayer 3 times a day, so it can't possibly apply to "everyone, everywhere"
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But we curse malshinim and G-d's enemies in the prayer 3 times a day, so it can't possibly apply to "everyone, everywhere"
I got a message from someone on Facebook about it.
http://www.facebook.com/doniels?ref=mf
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Is it wrong to say YimachShemoto a friend who has seriously done us wrong by evilly betraying the friendship?
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I am not Jewish, but that seems just wrong to me...I've been hurt, betrayed, rejected by so called friends, I might get angry and bitter, but I would never say that about them.
Is it wrong to say YimachShemoto a friend who has seriously done us wrong by evilly betraying the friendship?
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Is it wrong to say YimachShemoto a friend who has seriously done us wrong by evilly betraying the friendship?
yes it it wrong...
The only people we say that to are enemies of the Jewish people.... Like Amalek.... You say 'a friend who has done us wrong by betrayal'.... That doesn't rise to the level of cursing them... Remember that we are to not hold a grudge, and not to be a talebearer amongst our people. We are also supposed to unload the burder of our 'enemies' ox... In this case the word 'enemy' means a person who we know who has done us wrong {again not rising to the level of a enemy of the Jewish people}...
Read the laws of Evil Speech here:
http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/chapter1.html
1. Definition of Lashon Hara: Negative Comments, Whether True or False
It is forbidden to speak disparagingly of one's "chaveir" (lit. friend--we will discuss who this technically includes later). Even if the information is entirely truthful, it is called Lashon Hara. If the information also contains any fabrication, it is also called motzi shem ra (lit. putting out a bad name). The speaker of Lashon Hara violates the prohibition of "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha (Lev. 19:16)."
2. Biblical Source for the Prohibition Against Lashon Hara
Leviticus 19:16 explicitly prohibits Lashon Hara and Rechilut (talebearing that incites hatred and resentment), yet there are many more commandments that bear on the speaking of Lashon Hara, as discussed in the introduction.
3. Habitual Speakers of Lashon Hara
The above (the seriousness of speaking Lashon Hara) relates to someone who incidentally includes something inappropriate in his speech. But those who make it a habit to talk about others in a derogatory manner ("Did you hear.....", "Do you know she.....", etc.) are labeled ba'alei lashon hara (lit. masters of Lashon Hara, in that such speech is an integral part of themselves), and their transgression is far more severe. They regularly create a chilul Hashem (desecration of the name of G-d; cf. Lev. 22:32) because of their rebellious manner. Though they may view their activities as social tools, such behavior cuts them off from many good things in the world around them.
4. Profound Consequences of Speaking Lashon Hara
Ba'alei Lashon Hara are also cut off from something else: olam habah (the World to Come). The Sages say (Bab. Erchin 15b) that for three transgressions one forfeits his portion in olam habah: murder, adultery, and idol worship, and that lashon hara is equivalent to all three. The Chafetz Chaim adds that when someone accustoms himself to speaking Lashon Hara, he rationalizes it to the extent that he begins to view Lashon Hara as entirely permissible.
The comparison of Lashon Hara to well-known and agreed-upon sins such as murder is surprising. But at the same time, we can imagine why: just as the "Ten Commandments" sins damage and destroy vital physical aspects of the world, Lashon Hara afflicts the emotional and social realms.
5. Being "Coerced" into Speaking Lashon Hara
There is no difference when speaking lashon hara whether one tells a juicy story of his own will or because someone encourages (or pressures) him to do so. Even if the speaker's Rebbe (teacher) or parent--whom the person must honor and fear, and not contradict--requests that he tell about an incident, if the relating of the information would result in Lashon Hara or even Avak Lashon Hara (speech that provokes Lashon Hara; more about that later), he cannot say it.
If you think about it, Lashon Hara isn't any different from any other commandment. If someone encouraged you, or even nagged you, to eat a cheeseburger, you would still be fully responsible for your actions. Certainly social pressure for gossip seems more effective than it is for food, drink and many other areas, but that may be because we are not used to saying "no" to evil speech.
6. Speaking Lashon Hara to Avoid Financial Loss
Even when subject to great financial loss, one is not permitted to speak Lashon Hara. This may mean that he will be viewed as a fool, and denied financial opportunity by the "intelligent" people with whom he associates. As in all Mitzvot Lo Taaseh (Torah prohibitions), we are commanded to forgo all of our income.
(The source for this is in Shema: b'kol l'vavcha, b'kol nafsh'cha, ub'kol m'odecha: "You shall love the L-rd your G-d with all of your heart, all of your soul, and all of your possessions.")
It is generally helpful to try and develop a (personal) rational approach to the laws of Lashon Hara. When someone is confronted with a situation in which he is expected to speak derogatorily about someone, if he can respond with a simple personal philosophy (or sometimes just enough self-confidence to convey adherence to a personal philosophy), he will leave most of those situations with others' respect intact. And in those situations which are not in the "most" category, the best thing to do is remember the benefits that accrue through hardship in observing this mitzvah.
7. Speaking Lashon Hara to Avoid Personal Dishonor
If someone stands to lose personal honor by not speaking Lashon Hara, he must also sustain the loss and remain silent. For example, if one is sitting in a group speaking Lashon Hara, and he has no way to separate from them at the moment, he cannot participate in their lively discussion. This applies even if he will look like a simpleton or social clod. He should try to hold himself back and remember the many sayings of the Sages regarding his situation: "Better to be considered a fool in the eyes of man throughout one's lifetime than as a wicked person in the eyes of G-d for one moment (Eduyot 5:6)," "the reward is according to the effort (Pirkei Avot/Ethics of the Fathers 5:25)," "one hundred times more in hardship than without it (i.e. the reward is one hundred fold; Avot d'Rabbi Natan)," and the Vilna Gaon who writes that "for every second that one remains silent he will merit reward beyond the comprehension of any being, even celestial."
8. Various Methods of Conveying Lashon Hara
Whether spoken, written, or hinted with gestures or any other way (if you looked at the Rashi in Lev. 19:16 you saw that winking was described as a characteristic behavior of holchei rachil - those who go about slandering), any communication of Lashon Hara is prohibited. This also applies if you weren't the writer of a piece disparaging someone. [Rabbi Pliskin elaborates on a footnote in the Hebrew about the communication of Lashon Hara: showing a letter or other writing (e.g. a newspaper) to belittle its writer would also be forbidden. I would anticipate that this would also apply to footage in a film or other media.]
9. Disparaging Yourself Along with Others
Even if you're disparaging yourself alongside the subject, it is prohibited. It doesn't matter if you look even worse than the subject, and it doesn't matter if you mention yourself first. Rabbi Pliskin gives some nice examples:
Ben and I both shoplifted when we were younger.
Nobody in our group studies Torah properly.
It is also forbidden to speak Lashon Hara about yourself.
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5765/kedoshim.html
http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/5760/kedoshim60.htm
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/bonchek/archives/kedoshim63.htm
Parashas Kedoshim (5763)
This sedra, as Rashi points out (verse 19:2), contains some of the most basic teachings of Judaism. One is that one must not take advantage of someone who is in a weaker or one-down position from you. An example of that is given in the following verse.
Vayikra 19:14
“You shall not curse a deaf person and before a blind person you shall not place a stumbling block. You shall fear your G-d. I am Hashem.”
RASHI
You shall not curse a deaf person: RASHI: I only know [this prohibition] regarding a deaf person, from where do I know [the prohibition] includes everyone. (i.e it is forbidden to curse anyone).Another verse says (Exodus 22:27) ‘[A prince] among your people you shall not curse.’ (the term ‘among your people’ includes the prohibition against cursing anyone). If so, then why must the Torah specify a deaf person? [The reason is that ] Just as a deaf a person is alive so too anyone who is alive, this excludes the prohibition of cursing a dead person, who is not alive
WHAT IS RASHI SAYING?
Rashi employs the Talmudic drash which derives from this verse the halacha that the prohibition of cursing a person is applicable only when the person who is cursed is living. This means that while cursing a person who is dead is certainly not good behavior, it is not prohibited in this verse. The drash explains why a deaf person is singled out in this verse, if cursing anyone is forbidden. The reason that the Torah mentions a deaf person explicitly is to use it as a representative of a category – the category of living people. Just as a deaf person is alive and it is forbidden to curse him, so too any person who is alive it is forbidden to curse. But it is not forbidden to curse a person who is not alive, who is dead.
UNDERSTANDING THE DRASH
The drash emphasizes the point that the deaf person is alive, but isn’t that strange ? Most people we are prohibited from harming are alive! Why single out the deaf person ?
An Answer: The defining characteristic of a deaf person is that he is deaf. If one where to ask: What do you know about Yaakov? The first answer someone would give is that he is deaf (if in fact he were deaf). But if Yaakov were also dead, then the first answer would be “He is dead.” That is more defining than the fact that he was deaf when he was alive.
A DEEPER QUESTION
But why do I need to be told this? Isn’t it obvious that cursing a deaf person is basically a crime if the person is alive and could suffer from being cursed, even if he, himself, cannot hear the curse ?
The answer is that there is a case where cursing a dead person is a crime. One may not curse one’s parents even if they are dead. So I might have thought that since it is prohibited to curse parents even if they are not alive, so too it would be prohibited to curse anyone even after they died. But the Torah differentiates between the two cases, one is forbidden (parents) and on is not forbidden (any other person).
Can you think why?
Your Answer:
A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING
An Answer: I would say that cursing anyone is forbidden because you do him harm. Therefore, only when the object of your curse can suffer harm, are you forbidden to curse him. That would be only while he is alive. But the reason for not cursing parents is not the harm that could come to them; rather the reason is that one must not be ungrateful to one’s parents who gave him life. That reason exists even after one’s parents have died. He must still be respectful of them and grateful to them for the life they have given him. It is for this reason that one must never curse one’s parents, alive or dead. But this is not the rationale for not cursing another person. The rational exists only when the other person is alive.
Shabbat Shalom
Avigdor Bonchek
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So what are we doing in Shemoneh Esray (daily prayers) in the blessing about the malshinim ? Are we not cursing traitors to the Jewish people?
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Rabbi Kahane obviously learned this subject differently than some in this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZUj1VLJFj8&feature=channel
2:41-2:48
"Yossi Sarid, the names of the wicked will rot"
"Yossi Sarid, Yemach shemo v'zichro"
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So what are we doing in Shemoneh Esray (daily prayers) in the blessing about the malshinim ? Are we not cursing traitors to the Jewish people?
Very interesting that you should ask this... I just received the answer in my email yesterday... Shuel the Small from the Talmud and Pirkie avot tells us the answer:
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/ch4-24.html
What We Think about Sinners
Chapter 4, Mishna 24
"Shmuel (Sh-moo-ail) the Small said, 'At your enemy's fall do not rejoice, and when he stumbles let your heart not be joyous, lest the L-rd see and be displeased and turn back His anger from him [to you]' (Proverbs 24:17-18)."
This week's mishna tells us that we must not gloat over the downfall of our enemy, even if such a downfall was eminently deserved. When G-d metes out justice to the wicked, we should find it unsettling. G-d's power has been unleashed in this world; am I so deserving that it will not be directed at me?
The commentator Rabbeinu Yonah adds that there *is* a certain sense of elation we may feel. G-d's honor has been restored. Wickedness does not last forever. G-d ultimately sees to it that His enemies are punished. If He does so in this world, just a small amount of His glory has been revealed to mankind. And for that, we may rejoice.
We should not, however, rejoice over the suffering itself our enemy endures. It may be necessary and it may be 100% *right*, but it is not a source of joy. The Talmud states that when the Egyptians were drowning in the sea, the angels wanted to sing their daily song of praise to G-d, and G-d quieted them: "The creations of My hands are drowning in the sea, and you are singing song?!" (Megillah 10b). One of the most wicked and immoral nations history has produced was at last experiencing its well-deserved fate, yet G-d Himself, so to speak, experienced no pleasure in the process.
Yet at the same time the angels were silenced, Moses and Miriam led the Jewish nation in our most glorious Song of the Sea. Were we so much better? If the angels could not sing, how could we?
The answer is that we sang not as a form of gloating over our enemies, but because we had witnessed G-d's salvation. And it was more than just a salvation. We caught a glimpse -- albeit a fleeting one -- of G-d's Divine guiding Hand. In a moment of inspiration, we were able to grasp the Big Picture -- to discern G-d's slow but directed guiding Hand throughout our history. Everything had come to a head. Jewish history had unfolded before our eyes. We realized that far beyond our puny comprehension G-d had been orchestrating events all along. Hundreds of years of exile and suffering had been purposeful and a part of G-d's master plan. We recognized that G-d had been purifying us in the crucible of Egypt, slowly molding us into His nation, and preparing us for this grand and glorious moment when we would see our Creator face to face.
Singing because people, even wicked people, are drowning we could never do. Singing because G-d had revealed Himself to His nation and to the world -- such a song would reverberate throughout all the generations.
(To touch on this theme slightly better (and then leave it aside for now), singing (or crying, or both) is man's reaction when he is overcome with emotion. At the Sea of Reeds we were able to glimpse that G-d had been guiding us far *beyond* our limited comprehension. This overwhelmed. Our day-to-day study and spiritual growth -- where our growth is basically commensurate with our efforts -- does not spur us to such song. (Maybe to some cheerful humming but not to "song".))
Punishing the wicked is a necessary evil. Yes, wickedness should not exist, and the world is much better off without it. The Mishna states, "The death of the wicked is beneficial to them and beneficial to the world" (Sanhedrin 8:5). But much better would the world have been had the wicked not sinned at all, or had they repented their ways before G-d's justice caught up with them. The world was sweet when the Egyptians were drowned in the sea. But it was bittersweet compared to what might have been had G-d's glory been revealed in man's obeying Him rather than man's chastisement through Him.
Finally, our mishna concludes that when one rejoices over his enemy's downfall, G-d may turn His wrath and direct it towards the rejoicer. Are you really so happy to see G-d wield His rod of chastisement? Is that how you like seeing G-d relate to the world? Now, are *you* really so much more deserving than your enemy? These are *not* the sort of questions we should want raised in Heaven.
When Lot and his family were fleeing the destruction of Sodom, they were instructed by the angels not to look back (see Genesis 19). Lot's wife had the chutzpah to turn and view the destruction being visited on people she was hardly better than. She shared their fate. Punishment is necessary; its message should not be missed by all who witness or hear of it. But enjoying G-d's vengeance as if it were your own? Someone who truly cares for G-d's honor would hardly rejoice when the wickedness of man gave G-d no choice but to blot it out.
The commentators point out something surprising about our mishna. Shmuel the Small did not actually *say* anything. All he did was quote a verse from Proverbs, wisdom authored by King Solomon a thousand years earlier. What did Shmuel teach us that we did not know (or could not have learned) ourselves?
The commentators answer that this was a catch phrase of Shmuel or that he felt it necessary to remind people of its import.
I heard R. Zev Leff, noted scholar and lecturer of Moshav Matisyahu, Israel (www.rabbileff.net/">Rabbileff.net), adds a valuable twist to this. Not everyone can quote a verse in Proverbs. Quoting it implies it is something I live up to and identify with. Unfortunately, we all learn many things which we accept and admire intellectually, but which cannot be said to be a part of us. We should always speak gently, we should pray with fervor, we should see ourselves as constantly standing before G-d. Might even be a tad hypocritical for us to go about pontificating about such things. Shmuel the Small, however, (and as the Jerusalem Talmud (Sotah 9:13) writes, his "smallness" was not a physical shortcoming; his humility led him to behave with "smallness") was one who thoroughly lived the verse in Proverbs, so much so that Solomon's statement was his as well -- one he could state as an expression of his own essence.
R. Leff continued that this is evidenced in another incident which involved Shmuel. The Talmud records that it was Shmuel who, at the behest of the Sages, inserted into the daily Shemoneh Esrai prayer a supplication asking for the destruction of heretics (Brachos 28b). Why was he chosen for the task -- and did he rise to it? Precisely because he was one who didn't really want it. Since Shmuel took no pleasure in the downfall of Israel's enemies -- other than that it was a necessary step in the restoration of G-d's Throne, he could author a prayer asking G-d for just that. When he taught us to beseech that G-d "uproot, smash, cast down, and humble the wanton sinners speedily in our days," he did not have destruction and retribution in mind. His sole interest was that the honor of G-d's sacred Name be restored, and that those who will never recognize G-d through His benevolence will know it through His justice.
So too we, if we truly seek G-d's honor, must never see punishment as victory. We see it as a tragic but necessary step in the revelation of G-d to man. And through this recognition, may we merit to see all aspects of G-d's involvement with the world as multiple facets of a single loving G-d.
Also there is a difference between a unrepentant sinner and one who has wronged us {as the JTFenthusiast2 mentioned, a friend who did us wrong}.... That is why it is wrong to curse this friend...
Is it wrong to say YimachShemoto a friend who has seriously done us wrong by evilly betraying the friendship?
PS: I fully support cursing the enemies of the Jewish people, but the Mitzvah is concerning our neighbors, not our sworn enemy. We make a distinction between those who have 'done us wrong', 'insulted us', 'hurt us', and those who are the enemy of the Jewish people. All of our personal enemies are not enemies of the Jewish people... We must make this distinction...
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It is clear that Rabbi Kahane learned this issue differently than Rabbi Zev Leff.
It couldn't possibly be more clear.
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In either case:
You qouted Rabbi Leff as saying:
"When he taught us to beseech that G-d "uproot, smash, cast down, and humble the wanton sinners speedily in our days," he did not have destruction and retribution in mind. His sole interest was that the honor of G-d's sacred Name be restored, and that those who will never recognize G-d through His benevolence will know it through His justice."
But we are still asking for that justice to happen to those enemies. Whether the primary focus is to "punish" the evildoers or to glorify God's name by bringing justice on their heads, in either case you are still cursing them and asking for them to receive their justice.
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I was not commenting about a particular case of a man and his friend who "wronged" him. I don't think you can curse someone over that. Muman, my reaction was to the author of this post, German Kahanist who stated that you cannot curse "anyone at anytime, or any Jew at any time." THIS is what I responded to when I suggested the prayer in the shemoneh esray, and indeed it is a proof to me, even if one learns along the lines of Rabbi Zev Leff. And it is clear that Rabbi Kahane spoke of Yossi Sarid as an "unrepentent sinner" or a traitor to Israel. Not as just some guy who he felt did an insult or a bad thing. That was never what I was talking about.
But it seems that you want to defend both. On the one hand, you rightly point out a person should not curse his friend over trivial matters (or even over a big insult) - and I never disagreed with this, but on the other hand, you seem to argue with ME and in effect, you seem to lend credence to German Kahanist's mistaken position. Please clarify.
You need to direct your answers to specific people. Even if you are quoting huge articles from other locations, you need to address people specifically and show what you are responding to. Otherwise you cause confusion and people take blanket statements as an answer to everything in the thread, when that's not the case, or they think you are arguing with me and with the other guy who asked a question.... It seems like that may be so even though I am in disbelief that you would be....
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For instance, after quoting my question, citing a long paragraph to address it, for some reason after that you include this:
Also there is a difference between a unrepentant sinner and one who has wronged us {as the JTFenthusiast2 mentioned, a friend who did us wrong}.... That is why it is wrong to curse this friend...
I never asked if it was wrong to curse that friend. So it is out of place (strange) that you follow your citation with this comment. Let us steer clear of confusion and please keep things in order in a given thread.
Now to clarify:
Muman: You say it is wrong to curse so-and-so's friend. Obviously.
Do you also say it is wrong and forbidden to curse Yossi Sarid y''s?
If so, on this Rabbi Kahane clearly disagreed and so do I.
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Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef also cursed Yossi Sarid.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,2921.msg18703.html#msg18703 (http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,2921.msg18703.html#msg18703)
http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/0821/ovadia.html (http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/0821/ovadia.html)
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I am not Jewish, but that seems just wrong to me...I've been hurt, betrayed, rejected by so called friends, I might get angry and bitter, but I would never say that about them.
Hanna,
Why does this surprise you? It's a natural inclination in thew direction of survival to want to curse those who have betrayed us. The more vicious the betrayal, the more understandable the desire to want to curse them. I am not saying that we 'should' do this which is why I was asking the question. I have one former friend in particular to whom I was a loyal dedicated and faithful friend. HIs response to my kindness was to gossip about me with people whom were really mentally ill, evil and sick in the head. I'm inclined to think this act of gossiping, malignant gossiping, entitles him to be the object of my curse! lol
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The blessing in the 'Amidah is not a curse, it's a prayer begging H" to save Jews from Malshinim ( a malshin is someone who either gives information about Jews endangering theirs lives, or enticing others to attack Jews). But it's forbidden to curse another Jew. It's one of the 613 mitzvot. It's also forbidden for a Noahide to use the Name to curse anybody due to the prohibition of blasphemy.
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What about George Soros?
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What about George Soros?
Not necessary to specify names. If you are a Jew, just pray the 'Amidah and H" knows who is a Malshin and who is not.
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The blessing in the 'Amidah is not a curse, it's a prayer begging H" to save Jews from Malshinim ( a malshin is someone who either gives information about Jews endangering theirs lives, or enticing others to attack Jews). But it's forbidden to curse another Jew. It's one of the 613 mitzvot. It's also forbidden for a Noahide to use the Name to curse anybody due to the prohibition of blasphemy.
Where are you getting this from? Yes, it's a prayer that will have an effect to protect us good Jews from the traitors minim, etc, but who do you think the malshinim and enemies of Hashem etc etc are? They are also Jews and we are certainly cursing them to destruction.
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The blessing in the 'Amidah is not a curse, it's a prayer begging H" to save Jews from Malshinim ( a malshin is someone who either gives information about Jews endangering theirs lives, or enticing others to attack Jews). But it's forbidden to curse another Jew. It's one of the 613 mitzvot. It's also forbidden for a Noahide to use the Name to curse anybody due to the prohibition of blasphemy.
Where are you getting this from? Yes, it's a prayer that will have an effect to protect us good Jews from the traitors minim, etc, but who do you think the malshinim and enemies of Hashem etc etc are? They are also Jews and we are certainly cursing them to destruction.
Can a gentile also be a malshinim or applies this term only to Jews?
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The blessing in the 'Amidah is not a curse, it's a prayer begging H" to save Jews from Malshinim ( a malshin is someone who either gives information about Jews endangering theirs lives, or enticing others to attack Jews). But it's forbidden to curse another Jew. It's one of the 613 mitzvot. It's also forbidden for a Noahide to use the Name to curse anybody due to the prohibition of blasphemy.
Where are you getting this from? Yes, it's a prayer that will have an effect to protect us good Jews from the traitors minim, etc, but who do you think the malshinim and enemies of Hashem etc etc are? They are also Jews and we are certainly cursing them to destruction.
Malshinim may be traitor Jews, but the blessing is intended to pray for the community to be protected from traitor Jews who give information to enemies. It's a prayer that their evil plans may come to nothing and their projects destructed. May the Malshinim have no hope. It's not intended to pray specifically for their phisical destrucction, and if it were necessary, it would only be for defense. But cursing another Jew to punish him for some evil he has already done is forbidden.
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Raul,
I just understood the true meaning of your name. Are you a decendent of Marrios?
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Raul,
I just understood the true meaning of your name. Are you a decendent of Marrios?
What are Marrios? My Name is Raúl Mario. I mistakenly typed it with double r when I made an account, and now I use it in that way because people already know the nick.
Ulli: I believe that a Malshin ( someone who entices others to attack Jews) or Moser (someone who simply gives dangerous information about Jews) and a Rodef ( someone who attacks Jews on his own, instead of informing or enticing others) are all terms that can refer only to traitor Jews. If a Gentile did the same he would simply be an enemy since he belongs to another nation, and in case of war it's permitted to fight and even kill an enemie during war. Malshin, Moser and Rodef were declared by Ravs in order to allow Jews to take protective measures against them. There's no need of such a term for a Gentile because when a Gentile attacks he 's already at war with Israel and Jews need no rabbinical licence to fight them.
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Raul,
I just understood the true meaning of your name. Are you a decendent of Marrios?
What are Marrios? My Name is Raúl Mario. I mistakenly typed it with double r when I made an account, and now I use it in that way because people already know the nick.
Ulli: I believe that a Malshin ( someone who entices others to attack Jews) or Moser (someone who simply gives dangerous information about Jews) and a Rodef ( someone who attacks Jews on his own, instead of informing or enticing others) are all terms that can refer only to traitor Jews. If a Gentile did the same he would simply be an enemy since he belongs to another nation, and in case of war it's permitted to fight and even kill an enemie during war. Malshin, Moser and Rodef were declared by Ravs in order to allow Jews to take protective measures against them. There's no need of such a term for a Gentile because when a Gentile attacks he 's already at war with Israel and Jews need no rabbinical licence to fight them.
I think he meant Marranos.... They are Jews who were forced to convert in Spain yet kept their Jewish ritual observance secret... Many of them were burned at the stake when neighbors ratted on them for observing Shabbat...
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The blessing in the 'Amidah is not a curse, it's a prayer begging H" to save Jews from Malshinim ( a malshin is someone who either gives information about Jews endangering theirs lives, or enticing others to attack Jews). But it's forbidden to curse another Jew. It's one of the 613 mitzvot. It's also forbidden for a Noahide to use the Name to curse anybody due to the prohibition of blasphemy.
Where are you getting this from? Yes, it's a prayer that will have an effect to protect us good Jews from the traitors minim, etc, but who do you think the malshinim and enemies of Hashem etc etc are? They are also Jews and we are certainly cursing them to destruction.
Malshinim may be traitor Jews, but the blessing is intended to pray for the community to be protected from traitor Jews who give information to enemies. It's a prayer that their evil plans may come to nothing and their projects destructed. May the Malshinim have no hope. It's not intended to pray specifically for their phisical destrucction, and if it were necessary, it would only be for defense. But cursing another Jew to punish him for some evil he has already done is forbidden.
Can you provide a reference for your statement that cursing a heretic is forbidden?
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http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/shoah/11a-shoah.htm
B. Apostasy and the Hiding of God's Face
As we saw in the previous lecture, the Rabbi of Sanz-Klausenburg perceives the significance of the era as a reflection of the prototype set forth in Megillat Esther. The issue of the proper attitude towards those who stray from Torah is likewise treated in his Purim sermons. We shall examine one of them (Shefa Chayim, Purim, pp. 113-116).
The sermon begins with a discussion of the formulations of the "cursed" and the "blessed" that are recited after the reading of the Megilla. In the Tur and in the Shulchan Arukh (590:16), the formula is "Cursed be all the idolaters; blessed be all of Israel," while in the printed version of the poem "Shoshanat Yaakov," we find "Cursed be all the wicked, and blessed be all the righteous." Our text of the Talmud Yerushalmi offers the same version as the Shulchan Arukh, but the Tosafot and the Rosh (Megilla 7b) quote the Yerushalmi as following the printed version of "Shoshanat Yaakov."
The Rebbe notes at the outset that it must be assumed that the original formula referred to "idolaters," and that the change to "wicked" was introduced out of fear of the censors. This historical explanation, while satisfactory on the traditional level – after all, this is the formula of the prayer with which we are familiar – certainly in no way nullifies the deeper significance of the differences. According to the version in the siddur, our intention is to curse the wicked among Israel along with the wicked of the other nations! The Rebbe also points out that cursing the wicked, according to strict halakhic standards ("One who violates a rabbinical enactment can be called a transgressor" – Shabbat 40a), would mean that almost every Jew would be cursed. And if the formula "cursed be the wicked" was an "evil custom," God would certainly have brought about a way to nullify it so that it would not be uttered as part of the prayer.
The Rebbe explains (ibid., p. 114) that the rigid definition of "wicked" applies only in an era where God's presence in history is unequivocal and irrefutable. Whether such a situation is a theoretical fiction or whether the Rebbe indeed believed that during the era of prophecy, for example, the manifestation of God's presence in the world was unequivocal, his teaching implies that in a generation of "hester panim" (the "hiding of God's face"), and in the absence of prophecy and of God's word, even if we claim that day is night (i.e., we are unable to distinguish between a transgression and the fulfillment of a commandment) – it is not our fault. There is no one in our generation who can properly be called wicked or a transgressor:
This is what our Sages taught concerning the verse, "And He called the name of the place Masa u-Meriva, because of the strife of Bnei Yisrael and because they tested God, saying: 'Is God in our midst or not?' And Amalek came and waged war against Israel in Refidim" (Shemot 17:7-8). Rashi explains: "The latter episode [concerning Amalek] is juxtaposed with the former [Masa u-Meriva], so as to say: I am always in your midst, ready to provide for all your needs, yet you say, 'Is God in our midst?'! By your lives, this dog will come and bite you, and you will cry out to Me and you will know where I am. This may be compared to a man who puts his son onto his shoulder and then sets off on the way. The son sees some object and says: Father – lift up that object and give it to me – and he gives it to him, and thus a second time and a third time. They then meet another person, and the son says to that man: 'Have you seen my father?' His father says to him: 'Don't you know where I am?!' He casts him down from atop his shoulder, and a dog comes and bites him."
And this is understood, because this was after Bnei Yisrael had left Egypt and had seen miracles and wonders, and they experienced a revelation of God, and Moshe and Aharon were with them. Since, despite all of this, they asked, "Is God in our midst or not?" therefore immediately "Amalek came and waged war against Israel," and they received their punishment. But in our times, darkness covers the earth, and a great hiding of God's face, as it says in the Gemara (Ta'anit 25a), "Levi said before Him: 'Master of the universe, You have gone up and taken up residence on High, and You do not have mercy on Your children.' Therefore it is no wonder that Bnei Yisrael ask where their Father is – for from where shall they know where their Father is?!(ibid. p. 115)
In terms of our intention in prayer, then, every Jew is to be considered righteous, for it is impossible to define him as wicked; only non-Jews can fall into that category:
Therefore, it is clear that when we say, "Cursed are all the wicked," we can only be referring to non-Jews, … "and blessed are all the righteous" refers to all of Israel, who, on the basis of the quality of the generation, are all righteous, as explained above, (ibid.)
In social terms, the conclusion is that in our days there is no Jew whom we can curse. Once the element of brazenness is removed from the straying and heresy and deviance is understood as being the result of the hiding of God's face, we are speaking of the category of "one who is forced – he is exempt from Divine punishment." While up until the Holocaust one could still demand of a Jew that he believe or that he observe the commandments of the Torah, and leaving religion could be regarded as a normative or even moral deviation, the Holocaust changed this assumption.
Obviously, a person who is whole in his faith has no need for the Master of the universe to bring proof of His existence. But after the Holocaust, is it still possible to make any claim against a person who does not believe? After the Holocaust, should we still be astounded by heresy, or is it faith that is astounding? The Rebbe says, "We are compared to a blind man who has never seen light in his life, and he says of the day that it is night." In other words, in our state of blindness following the Holocaust, faith is something of a wager. A person who has never experienced a sense of God's closeness or revelation can not be forced to decide the wager in favor of faith.
In a different sermon, the Rebbe directs his great pain towards Heaven:
I am forced to say: Father, thus it is written in the Torah… Why are we deserving of punishment at a time when our eyes are unable to see, and our hearts are incapable of understanding? What will it help that we shout to him, "I am the Lord…" when he is blind and does not see? Is it possible to strike someone who is blind for not being able to see?!...
Our Father in heaven – why do You do this? Are they not of limited knowledge? And if You hide Your face from them, how can they run after You, when they do not know where the place of Your glory is…[7]
These words, directed towards God, are reminiscent of the powerful prayers of early Chassidim, such as Rabbi Levi Yitzchak of Berditchev. Two strong emotions come together here: a feeling of distance and hiding of God's face on the religious level, and a feeling of empathy and compassion towards all Jews who have left their religion on the social level. Clearly, the Rebbe is not seeking to encourage the conclusion that if our Father does not reveal Himself, we should not believe in Him. However, he does want to pray for those wayward Jews; furthermore, he wants to develop a different, more supportive attitude towards their negative religious state.
The view that seeks to remain apart, rejecting those who stray from inclusion in Am Yisrael – the position that was held by the great majority of Chassidic orthodoxy in Galicia and Hungary prior to the Holocaust – is quite understandable in the context of the anti-Enlightenment and anti-Zionist controversy and the battle waged by Chassidism to guard itself against these movements. But after the Holocaust, in the new social and religious situation that had come about, this approach was rejected in favor of a more unifying and accepting approach, returning to the "love of fellow Jews" that had characterized the beginnings of Chassidism.
The "accepting" approach also had halakhic ramifications. The halakha that permits indirect harm to one who has deviated from the principles of Jewish faith and tradition is nullified; as stated, we cannot come with claims against a person who has not succeeded in obligating himself to believe or to observe the commandments in a situation of "hester panim" (a hiding of God's face):
And because of this, in these times we do not carry out the verdict of those for whom our Sages prescribed that they be "lowered and not raised up,"[8] since there are no righteous people in this generation, and also they are not guilty for having degenerated and reached their situation…[9]
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http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/reeh65.htm
Not to Curse a Jew!
"And that (false) prophet or dreamer shall die, because he spoke false words against Hashem ... and you shall destroy the evil from your midst" (13:6).
During a discussion that R. No'ach Gad Weintraub once had with R. Yosef Chayim concerning the new generation, whose upbringing was devoid of Torah and Mitzvos, the former referred to one of the secular leaders, adding the words 'Yimach sh'mo (may his name be blotted out)'.
R, Yosef Chayim however, did not approve of this, and commented that this was not the way to speak about a fellow- Jew.
R. Weintraub was stunned. R. Yosef Chayim fought the secular establishment tooth and nail without respite. He did everything in his power to negate their authority, and the Rav's comment caught him completely by surprise. And he put the question to him.
R. Yosef Chayim replied that on the on hand, we are obligated to do whatever we can to stem the influence of those who attack our religion, no matter who they are, as David Hamelech writes in Tehilim (139:21) "How I hate Your enemies Hashem, and I will fight those who arise against You". But who gives us the right to pray for their name to be blotted out? Surely it makes more sense to pray for them to do Teshuvah than to curse them (as B'ruryah taught her husband [Rebbi Meir] in B'rachos 10a)!
On the one hand, we are commanded 'to destroy the evil from our midst', and this obligates us to do battle with those who attempt to lead us astray. On the other, when confronted with matters that are beyond our comprehension, we are forbidden to relate to them in a negative way. David Hamelech saw with Ru'ach ha'Kodesh that a great luminary (Mordechai) was destined to descend from Shim'i ben Geira, and it was because of it that he forewent his Kavod (Kavod Malchus no less), despite the fact that Shim'i was guilty of a sin as grievous as treason, declining to sentence him to death during his lifetime. How much more careful must we be, we, who know nothing of G-d's plans, not to curse others, no matter what they have done. We dare not curse the Resha'im. What we have to do is to pray fervently that G-d showers them with a spirit of purity and puts into their hearts the will to do Teshuvah.
It is only with regard to Amalek, he concluded, that theTorah writes "Blot out the memory of Amalek" (and this incorporates all enemies of Yisrael and their oppressors, who stem from the root of Amalek), and it is they whom we hope and pray may be blotted out from the Book of life.
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Can you provide a reference for your statement that cursing a heretic is forbidden?
An herectic is someone who claims something of the Torah is not true or has a different meaning. A sinner is someone who accepts all the Torah as true but violates some mitzvah due to temptation or another reason. Today nearly all of the Jews who violate some mitzvah (Shabat, kosher, neglect Tefilah) do not just due so because of an invincible urge. They mostly think that to some degree those mitzvot are outdated, or at least that they are no so important as the Torah says. In a strict sense anyone is in danger of qualifying as an Herectic. (Just see the Roform and the Secular). So, if you curse ALL herectics in general, you may be unwittingly cursing a great majority of the Jewish People. And if you curse one specific herectic, you may be judged severily from Heaven. Who can be so sure that he has never had an heretical thought in his mind? And besides, an heretical must be punished with Herem by a Rav first.
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Can you provide a reference for your statement that cursing a heretic is forbidden?
An herectic is someone who claims something of the Torah is not true or has a different meaning. A sinner is someone who accepts all the Torah as true but violates some mitzvah due to temptation or another reason. Today nearly all of the Jews who violate some mitzvah (Shabat, kosher, neglect Tefilah) do not just due so because of an invincible urge. They mostly think that to some degree those mitzvot are outdated, or at least that they are no so important as the Torah says. In a strict sense anyone is in danger of qualifying as an Herectic. (Just see the Roform and the Secular). So, if you curse ALL herectics in general, you may be unwittingly cursing a great majority of the Jewish People. And if you curse one specific herectic, you may be judged severily from Heaven. Who can be so sure that he has never had an heretical thought in his mind? And besides, an heretical must be punished with Herem by a Rav first.
I understand this, but when I say references, I mean scriptural sources in Tanakh or other respected Jewish seferim.
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Can you provide a reference for your statement that cursing a heretic is forbidden?
"Thou shal not curse the deaf" Vaikra 19:14 (according to Rashi). Mitzva 317 according to Rambam. However I heard that a curse uttered in any other language (not in Hebrew) due to rage, without the intention of it being fullfilled is not included in the prohibition.
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Yes, Muman, you are right, thank you
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"Cursing another Jew is forbidden" This says the right one. :o
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"Cursing another Jew is forbidden" This says the right one. :o
Is "SW" steven wiegang ? What business does he have trying to "teach" Jews Torah? What he said is inaccurate in any case. We will address this further at a later time.
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"Cursing another Jew is forbidden" This says the right one. :o
Is "SW" steven wiegang ? What business does he have trying to "teach" Jews Torah? What he said is inaccurate in any case. We will address this further at a later time.
Is "SW" steven wiegang ? Yes
What business does he have trying to "teach" Jews Torah? None. I doubt he has even read the Torah. It is only a sympton of his psychological problems.