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Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Ari Ben-Canaan on January 27, 2010, 02:51:00 AM

Title: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on January 27, 2010, 02:51:00 AM: I have listened to a few hours of this audio lesson on "Tanya". It's pretty interesting. I wanted to know more about what I was listening to. Tanya touches on Kabalah things in it's wiki entry. Before I get too into it... I wanted to see if this is part of the "forbidden" Kabalah. Like the "Zohar"? I don't really even know if it's an old wives tale; I don't know anyone who studies the subject.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: rhayat1 on January 27, 2010, 06:59:49 AM: When the "Kabbalah" was first introduced to Ashkenazic Jewish society, in the late middle ages, some leading rabbis suspected something was foul. They couldn't come out against it because it had already gained some credibility in Sephardic circles and it would cause a rift. So, in an effort to protect the population from heretical ideas contained in the Kabbalah, they came up with the "under 40" rule - knowing full well that this would prevent most Jews from ever studying it (many died before that age anyway) and, once they did study it, the basic tenets of the Jewish faith would already be ensconced in their minds, making them resistant to the foreign concepts contained in books such as the Zohar.

Soon I'll post what I found out about the book "Sefer haRazim" - later reincarnated as "Raziel haMalakh". In a nutshell, this book is full of idolatry, prayers to Greek, Egyptian and Roman gods and descriptions of sacrifices that should be made to them. But it was written in Hebrew. The Rambam came out against the book and forced it underground. Shortly thereafter, the book "Raziel haMalakh" came out. It was not as blatantly heathen as haRazim, but it still contained a prayer to the sun and makes frequent mention of Aphrodite. Raziel haMalakh is mentioned three times in the Zohar (in a favorable context) and it is still used today as a charm against fire and to protect the newborn.

When my son was born in Israel, my (then) wife place a copy of Raziel next to him. I took it out and defaced it. She found out and confronted me in front of a prominent rabbi. The rabbi demanded why I would do such a thing. I showed him the things that are written in it and he, being a well-educated American (a disciple of the late Moshe Feinstein), recognized it for what it was. He purged the abomination from his own home and admitted I had won this battle.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 09:41:28 AM: Quote from: rhayat1 on January 27, 2010, 06:59:49 AM
When the "Kabbalah" was first introduced to Ashkenazic Jewish society, in the late middle ages, some leading rabbis suspected something was foul. They couldn't come out against it because it had already gained some credibility in Sephardic circles and it would cause a rift. So, in an effort to protect the population from heretical ideas contained in the Kabbalah, they came up with the "under 40" rule - knowing full well that this would prevent most Jews from ever studying it (many died before that age anyway) and, once they did study it, the basic tenets of the Jewish faith would already be ensconced in their minds, making them resistant to the foreign concepts contained in books such as the Zohar.

Soon I'll post what I found out about the book "Sefer haRazim" - later reincarnated as "Raziel haMalakh". In a nutshell, this book is full of idolatry, prayers to Greek, Egyptian and Roman gods and descriptions of sacrifices that should be made to them. But it was written in Hebrew. The Rambam came out against the book and forced it underground. Shortly thereafter, the book "Raziel haMalakh" came out. It was not as blatantly heathen as haRazim, but it still contained a prayer to the sun and makes frequent mention of Aphrodite. Raziel haMalakh is mentioned three times in the Zohar (in a favorable context) and it is still used today as a charm against fire and to protect the newborn.

When my son was born in Israel, my (then) wife place a copy of Raziel next to him. I took it out and defaced it. She found out and confronted me in front of a prominent rabbi. The rabbi demanded why I would do such a thing. I showed him the things that are written in it and he, being a well-educated American (a disciple of the late Moshe Feinstein), recognized it for what it was. He purged the abomination from his own home and admitted I had won this battle.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to discredit Kabbalah? If so you will not succeed. The Zohar is well respected and is an integral part of much of Chassidus. I have never seen anything which is idolatrous, as you suggest.... If you have something to say, say it, don't just attack Kabbalah and say you think this or that, please point out the issues so that they can be discussed.

I am not a Kabbalist, but as a Chassid, I do hear a lot of Torah which includes Zohar interpretations. I have never heard anything in Kabbalah which contradicts the Torah.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 09:47:20 AM: http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/174/Q1/

Dear Rabbi,

Why is it recommended not to read the book of Raziel the Angel? Thank you.

Dear Ofer Gamliel,

I heard the following from known Kabbalists here in Jerusalem. There is an ancient authoritative Kabbalistic work called Raziel HaMalach (Raziel the Angel). This book is cited by the Zohar, but the book itself was lost over a thousand years ago.

What is known today as the book of Raziel HaMalach is actually a distorted version of a genuine Kabbalistic work written by one of the Rishonim (11th - 15th century commentators). One of the Rishonim wrote a Kabbalistic work, not called Raziel Hamalach. Later, probably before the time of the Arizal (16th century), somebody took this work, added his own ideas to it and added pieces from sources inconsistent with traditional Jewish thought. He then published it under the title Raziel HaMalach. This work is not studied in the Kabbalistic schools.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 10:38:49 AM: http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm

When non-Jews ask about Judaism, they commonly ask questions like: Do you believe in heaven and hell? In angels or the devil? What happens to the soul after death? What is the nature of G-d and the universe? The answers to questions like these define most religions; in fact, I have heard some people say that the purpose of religion is to answer these kinds of questions. Yet in Judaism, most of these cosmological issues are wide open to personal opinion. The areas of Jewish thought that most extensively discuss these issues, Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism, were traditionally not even taught to people until the age of 40, when they had completed their education in Torah and Talmud.

Mysticism in Judaism

Mysticism and mystical experiences have been a part of Judaism since the earliest days. The Torah contains many stories of mystical experiences, from visitations by angels to prophetic dreams and visions. The Talmud considers the existence of the soul and when it becomes attached to the body. Jewish tradition tells that the souls of all Jews were in existence at the time of the Giving of the Torah and were present at the time and agreed to the Covenant. There are many stories of places similar to Christian heaven and purgatory, of wandering souls and reincarnation. The Talmud contains vague hints of a mystical school of thought that was taught only to the most advanced students and was not committed to writing. There are several references in ancient sources to ma'aseh bereishit (the work of creation) and ma'aseh merkavah (the work of the chariot [of Ezekiel's vision]), the two primary subjects of mystical thought at the time.

In the middle ages, many of these mystical teachings were committed to writing in books like the Zohar. Many of these writings were asserted to be secret ancient writings or compilations of secret ancient writings.

Like most subjects of Jewish belief, the area of mysticism is wide open to personal interpretation. Some traditional Jews take mysticism very seriously. Mysticism is an integral part of Chasidic Judaism, for example, and passages from kabbalistic sources are routinely included in traditional prayer books. Other traditional Jews take mysticism with a grain of salt. One prominent Orthodox Jew, when introducing a speaker on the subject of Jewish mysticism, said basically, "it's nonsense, but it's Jewish nonsense, and the study of anything Jewish, even nonsense, is worthwhile."

The mystical school of thought came to be known as Kabbalah, from the Hebrew root Qof-Beit-Lamed, meaning "to receive, to accept." The word is usually translated as "tradition." In Hebrew, the word does not have any of the dark, sinister, evil connotations that it has developed in English. For example, the English word "cabal" (a secret group of conspirators) is derived from the Hebrew word Kabbalah, but neither the Hebrew word nor the mystical doctrines have any evil implications to Jews.

Kabbalah: The Misunderstood Doctrine

Kabbalah is one of the most grossly misunderstood parts of Judaism. I have received several messages from non-Jews describing Kabbalah as "the dark side of Judaism," describing it as evil or black magic. On the other end of the spectrum, I receive many messages wanting to learn more about the trendy doctrine popularized by various Jewish and non-Jewish celebrities.

These misunderstandings stem largely from the fact that the teachings of Kabbalah have been so badly distorted by mystics and occultists. Kabbalah was popular among Christian intellectuals during the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods, who reinterpreted its doctrines to fit into their Christian dogma. In more recent times, many have wrenched kabbalistic symbolism out of context for use in tarot card readings and other forms of divination and magic that were never a part of the original Jewish teachings. Today, many well-known celebrities have popularized a new age pop-psychology distortion of kabbalah (I have heard it derisively referred to as "crap-balah"). It borrows the language of kabbalah and the forms of Jewish folk superstitions, but at its heart it has more in common with the writings of Deepak Chopra than with any authentic Jewish source.

I do not mean to suggest that magic is not a part of Kabbalah. There are certainly many traditional Jewish stories that involve the use of hidden knowledge to affect the world in ways that could be described as magic. The Talmud and other sources ascribe supernatural activities to many great rabbis. Some rabbis pronounced a name of G-d and ascended into heaven to consult with the G-d and the angels on issues of great public concern. One scholar is said to have created an artificial man by reciting various names of G-d. Much later stories tell of a rabbi who created a man out of clay (a golem) and brought it to life by putting in its mouth a piece of paper with a name of G-d on it. However, this area of Kabbalah (if indeed it is more than mere legend) is not something that is practiced by the average Jew, or even the average rabbi. There are a number of stories that discourage the pursuit of such knowledge and power as dangerous and irresponsible. If you see any books on the subject of "practical kabbalah," you can safely dismiss them as not authentic Jewish tradition because, as these stories demonstrate, this kind of knowledge was traditionally thought to be far too dangerous to be distributed blindly to the masses.

It is important to note that all of these magical effects were achieved through the power of G-d, generally by calling upon the name of G-d. These practices are no more "evil" than the miracles of the prophets, or the miracles that Christians ascribe to Jesus. In fact, according to some of my mystically-inclined friends, Jesus performed his miracles using kabbalistic techniques learned from the Essenes, a Jewish sect of that time that was involved in mysticism.

Ein Sof and the Ten Sefirot

To give you an idea of the nature of Kabbalah, I will briefly discuss one of the better known, fundamental concepts of kabbalistic thought: the concept of G-d as Ein Sof, the Ten Sefirot, and the kabbalistic tree of life. This explanation is, at best, a gross oversimplification. I do not pretend to fully understand these ideas.

According to Kabbalah, the true essence of G-d is so transcendent that it cannot be described, except with reference to what it is not. This true essence of G-d is known as Ein Sof, which literally means "without end," which encompasses the idea of His lack of boundaries in both time and space. In this truest form, the Ein Sof is so transcendent that It cannot have any direct interaction with the universe. The Ein Sof interacts with the universe through ten emanations from this essence, known as the Ten Sefirot.

Tree of Life (Large)These Sefirot correspond to qualities of G-d. They consist of, in descending order, Keter (the crown), Chokhmah (wisdom), Binah (intuition, understanding), Chesed (mercy) or Gedulah (greatness), Gevurah (strength), Tiferet (glory), Netzach (victory), Hod (majesty), Yesod (foundation) and Malkut (sovereignty). The middle five qualities are mentioned explicitly and in order at I Chronicles 29:11: Yours, O L-rd, is the greatness (gedulah), the strength (gevurah), the glory (tiferet), the power (netzach), and the splendor (hod). I have seen this passage translated in widely varying ways, but the Hebrew corresponds to the names of the Sefirot in order.

The Ten Sefirot include both masculine and feminine qualities. Kabbalah pays a great deal of attention to the feminine aspects of G-d.

The Sefirot are commonly represented as in the diagram at left. This diagram is commonly known as the Tree of the Sefirot or the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. There is great significance to the position of these various attributes and their interconnectedness.

The Sefirot are not separate deities, as some might think by taking this too literally. They are intimately a part of G-d, and yet they are in contact with the universe in a way that the Ein Sof is not. The Sefirot connect with everything in the universe, including humanity. The good and evil that we do resonates through the Sefirot and affects the entire universe, up to and including G-d Himself.
Suggested Reading

Readings in this area should be undertaken with extreme caution. There is entirely too much literature out there under the name "Kabbalah" that has little or nothing to do with the true Jewish teachings on this subject. Any book on the subject of practical Kabbalah should be disregarded immediately; no legitimate source would ever make such teachings available to a faceless mass audience. Books written by Christians should be viewed with extreme skepticism, because many Christian sources have reinterpreted Kabbalah to fit into Christian dogma.

There is a nice online introductory Kabbalah course available from Aish Ha-Torah at Kabbala 101.

Buy it at amazon.comFor an academic and scholarly information about Jewish mysticism and Kabbalah, check out the works of Professor Gershom Scholem. He was a prolific writer on the subject, and his writings are widely available and well-respected by both Jews and non-Jews. Dozens of his books are available at amazon.com. Click here to see a list.

For a more personal and experiential approach to Jewish mysticism and Kabbalah, see the works of Aryeh Kaplan. I am informed that his books are reliably authoritative and uncompromisingly Orthodox. I have found his materials on meditation and prayer, especially Jewish Meditation, to be particularly useful in my own devotional practices. Click here to see a list of his books available at amazon.com

Of course, if you are serious about Kabbalah, you must get yourself a teacher that you can work with one-on-one, either online or in person.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on January 27, 2010, 02:34:31 PM: Thank for the awesome explanation, it really puts things in a new perspective for me, which is exactly what I was looking for. I defiantly want to study Kabbalah some time in my life. I think I could start studying Kabbalah right now, but I like what I study now... and life is long. I favor speculating if the very Orthodox way of studying Kabbalah, although I have enjoyed wearing a red string on my left hand for inspirational reasons [once I tried it, the string came with a Hamsa I got for my Mom's purse], the steak and potatoes of real Judaism is what I desire most - in Kabbalah as well.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 04:00:46 PM: Quote from: Ariel Shayn on January 27, 2010, 02:34:31 PM
Thank for the awesome explanation, it really puts things in a new perspective for me, which is exactly what I was looking for. I defiantly want to study Kabbalah some time in my life. I think I could start studying Kabbalah right now, but I like what I study now... and life is long. I favor speculating if the very Orthodox way of studying Kabbalah, although I have enjoyed wearing a red string on my left hand for inspirational reasons [once I tried it, the string came with a Hamsa I got for my Mom's purse], the steak and potatoes of real Judaism is what I desire most - in Kabbalah as well.

Thanks again!

Charms are nice but they should not be relied upon or worshipped. I carry a Hamsa on my keychain along with the Travellers Prayer... I have never had any desire to wear a red string though and I have no idea where this 'kabbalistic' idea comes from... Is it an authentic Jewish Kabbalah custom? I have never learned this...

http://www.aish.com/sp/k/48965011.html

Quote
Is there anything of substance to this red thread business? Is there really such a thing as an "evil eye"?

There is absolutely no genuine kabbalistic source for wearing a red thread around one's wrist to ward off the "evil eye."

Firstly, there is absolutely no genuine kabbalistic source for wearing a red thread around one's wrist to ward off the "evil eye." While there exists such a practice amongst some devout Jews, it is not mentioned in any kabbalistic work.

Yes, there is a fleeting mention in the Talmud about the practice of tying a bundle of herbs or gems and wearing them in order to ward off the "evil eye." No special color, nor Rachel, nor even thread are mentioned. Also, the comment is an offhand remark concerning laws of Sabbath observance.

One of the late great scholars, the Debreczyner Rav, mentions it as a practice he saw in his father's home, but his extensive search could not find a written source for the practice.

The good news is that there is a clear and early source that mentions tying a red string to ward off an "evil eye" and that is in the Tosefta, an early Talmudic work (Shabbat, ch. 7-8). The bad news is that it clearly states that tying a red string around oneself is severely prohibited. It is characterized as "Darchei Emori," a worthless, superstitious practice, close to idol-worship.

Although later halachic literature implies that we may possibly not rule in accordance with this Tosefta, this still does not make this a commendable practice, but rather a tolerable one.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on January 27, 2010, 04:42:34 PM: Quote from: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 04:00:46 PM
Quote from: Ariel Shayn on January 27, 2010, 02:34:31 PM
Thank for the awesome explanation, it really puts things in a new perspective for me, which is exactly what I was looking for. I defiantly want to study Kabbalah some time in my life. I think I could start studying Kabbalah right now, but I like what I study now... and life is long. I favor speculating if the very Orthodox way of studying Kabbalah, although I have enjoyed wearing a red string on my left hand for inspirational reasons [once I tried it, the string came with a Hamsa I got for my Mom's purse], the steak and potatoes of real Judaism is what I desire most - in Kabbalah as well.

Thanks again!

Charms are nice but they should not be relied upon or worshipped. I carry a Hamsa on my keychain along with the Travellers Prayer... I have never had any desire to wear a red string though and I have no idea where this 'kabbalistic' idea comes from... Is it an authentic Jewish Kabbalah custom? I have never learned this...

http://www.aish.com/sp/k/48965011.html

Quote
Is there anything of substance to this red thread business? Is there really such a thing as an "evil eye"?

There is absolutely no genuine kabbalistic source for wearing a red thread around one's wrist to ward off the "evil eye."

Firstly, there is absolutely no genuine kabbalistic source for wearing a red thread around one's wrist to ward off the "evil eye." While there exists such a practice amongst some devout Jews, it is not mentioned in any kabbalistic work.

Yes, there is a fleeting mention in the Talmud about the practice of tying a bundle of herbs or gems and wearing them in order to ward off the "evil eye." No special color, nor Rachel, nor even thread are mentioned. Also, the comment is an offhand remark concerning laws of Sabbath observance.

One of the late great scholars, the Debreczyner Rav, mentions it as a practice he saw in his father's home, but his extensive search could not find a written source for the practice.

The good news is that there is a clear and early source that mentions tying a red string to ward off an "evil eye" and that is in the Tosefta, an early Talmudic work (Shabbat, ch. 7-8). The bad news is that it clearly states that tying a red string around oneself is severely prohibited. It is characterized as "Darchei Emori," a worthless, superstitious practice, close to idol-worship.

Although later halachic literature implies that we may possibly not rule in accordance with this Tosefta, this still does not make this a commendable practice, but rather a tolerable one.

I had a discussion with my Torah study leader about the red string. I espoused I have no belief that the string has powers of any sort, aside from visually stimulating me in an inspiring way to act righteously. I understand how it is created, and I think red string has a beautiful We agreed that the kippah is similar; wearing a kippah does not endow a person with magic, although it has the ability to inspire a person who wears it.

I think, for me, it may be best to avoid wearing the red string if there is controversy around it, or at least until I am a better Talmud scholar myself. It was a fun thing to learn about.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: rhayat1 on January 27, 2010, 08:43:53 PM: People will believe what they want, but the Zohar (though it cites ancient sources) is a forgery through and through. Yes, there certainly was mysticism among ancient Jews but there is no evidence that the Zohar (or Bahir) represent ancient Jewish mysticism. Not only that but many of the concepts expressed in the Zohar are contrary to traditional Jewish theology. What the Kabbalists have done, to defend their positions, is to claim that their books do not actually mean what they say. That there is some other, deeper, meaning. As a result, some Kabbalistic schools have actually brought themselves into conformity with traditional Judaism. Other schools simply "spiritualized" their original belief - that God is a physical entity - so that he acquired 248 "spiritual" limbs etc. A prime example of this is "Shene Luhoth haberith" by Avraham haLewi Horowitz. I think his words are worthy of a separate post.

As for the Zohar being a forgery, the evidence is so abundant that it's a wonder anybody could believe otherwise - and I'd be happy to list such evidence if anybody's interested.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 08:52:31 PM: I do not believe that the Zohar is a forgery.

But you are entitled to believe as you do. Nobody has to believe the mystical texts as a simple Jew is fine just understanding the Pshat/Simple meaning.

There is ample evidence that Kabbalah and mystical secrets have been passed down from generation to generation and the Torah itself has insight into some of these ideas. There is no way you will convince me that Kabbalah is not authentic Judaism and as I said, I have never learned any Kabbalah which violates any principles of basic Judaism 101.

There is some question about the authorship of the Zohar, this is true, but the sources for it predates the time that it was written.

Please point out the problems you see with the Zohar... I will attempt to answer the questions with what resources I have...
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 08:54:01 PM: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/361877/jewish/The-Zohar.htm

The Zohar

It was in the Tannaic period that the Zohar, the most famous text of Kabbalah, was committed to writing by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai (also known as the Rashbi). Rashbi lived in tumultuous times when the Roman government was executing all the great Torah teachers, including his master Rabbi Akiva.

Rashbi himself had to flee Roman persecution and hid in a cave with his son, Rabbi Elazar, for thirteen years. During this time, he received Divine Inspiration (Ruach Hakodesh) and merited the revelation of Elijah the Prophet and composed the sacred Zohar.

Based on the five books of Moses and written in Hebrew Aramaic, the text of the Zohar explores and expounds in a most cryptic way the mystical tradition. Its pre-eminent place in Jewish mysticism does not derive solely from its antiquity or its authorship. Other works of the Kabbalah such as Sefer Yetzirah and Sefer HaBahir are of earlier origin. The Zohar’s importance must rather be attributed to its comprehensiveness.

It became the source for practically all the later authoritative Kabbalistic teachings of the Arizal and others.

The Zohar was concealed for many centuries, and the study of the Kabbalah was restricted to a select few qualified individuals. It became revealed only in the thirteenth century and was published by one of the leading Kabbalists living in Spain, Rabbi Moshe de Leon. Some believed that the Ramban (Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman c.1194-1270 C.E.), himself a renowned Kabbalist, had sent the Zohar from Israel by ship to his son in Catalonia, but the ship had been diverted and the texts ended up in the hands of Rabbi Moshe de Leon. Others explained that these manuscripts had been hidden in a vault for a thousand years and had been discovered by an Arabian king who sent them to Toledo to be deciphered. Still others maintained that Spanish conquistadors had discovered the manuscripts of the Zohar among many others in an academy in Heidelberg. Whichever theory is true, the text was accepted as authentic by all pre-eminent Jewish scholars.

The mystics ascribe special potency to the study of Zohar.

It effects a nullification of evil decrees, eases the travails of exile, hastens the redemption, and draws forth Divine blessings. In some mystical circles, great merit is attributed to the mere recitation of the sacred texts of the Zohar, even though one does not understand them. However, ideally an effort is to be made to understand and comprehend the texts. The text has been translated into Hebrew and English. In truth, today it still remains a closed text without many introductions, explanations, and elucidations of later masters.

In summary, at this stage of history the major texts of Sefer Yetzirah, the Sefer HaBahir, the Pirkei Heichalot Rabati, and the Zohar contained the basic teachings that had been passed down through the prophets and sages from Moses. And yet, although committing the mystical tradition to writing had saved it from extinction, it was still a closed book to all but one who would be familiar with the intricacies of the esoteric tradition. The outline had been written but the keys to the tradition remained oral and contained within a small circle.

This remained the case until the next great explosion of Kabbalah to take place in the town of Safed, located in northern Israel, in the sixteenth century.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 08:56:04 PM: http://ohr.edu/judaism/survey/survey5.htm#ZOHAR

ZOHAR

* The Zohar was written by the students of Rabbi Shimon bar Yohai, who transcribed his teachings in about 170 C.E. in Israel.
* It discusses the concepts of Creation ex nihilo, Divine Providence and its mechanisms, the metaphysical meaning of the commandments of the Torah and the the connection between the physical and the spiritual.
* Written in Aramaic, it follows the order of the Five Books of Moses. The Zohar is the principle source text of the Kabbalah, the Torah's mystical teachings.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 08:58:32 PM: http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/204/Q5/

Joe McKay from Coatesville, PA wrote:

Dear Rabbi,

I am trying to find who is the author of the Zohar. I am studying the Kaballah and the teacher says that Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai is the author, but the Zohar was lost, and later found in the 13th century by Moses de Leon. Another school of thought is that it was written by Rabbi Moses de Leon. What is your opinion?

Dear Joe McKay,

Universal Jewish tradition maintains that the Zohar was in fact authored by Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and his students around 170-200 CE. Rabbi Moses de Leon merely published the already existent work.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 09:00:01 PM: http://ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=zohar-author

...

There is no doubt that explanation and the methods of achieving prophecy were expounded in an oral tradition, just like the rest of Torah. However, because of their esoteric nature, these mystical teachings were not published together with the remainder of the Oral Law. [Although according to Shem HaGedolim, they may have been part of the 600 orders of Mishnaic teachings prior to their redaction by Rabbi Yehudah HaNassi.]

Furthermore, study of the esoteric texts was restricted to those who were considered worthy of its knowledge, as is written: "One may not expound...the Work of Creation to more than one student [at a time]; the Work of the Chariot not even to one student - unless he is wise and can understand these matters by himself" ( Mishna Chagiga 2:1). The Gemara explains, "Rabbi Chiya taught, '[One may not expound the Work of the Chariot to any student] but one may give him the 'chapter headings,' [i.e. the fundamentals, without lengthy explanation]. Rabbi Zeira added, 'And then only to the Head of a Rabbinical Court, or to those who are properly wary'. Some maintain that Rabbi Zeira said, 'And then only to the Head of a Rabbinical Court, and only if he is properly wary.'" The Gemara then goes on to list various other conditions and limitations relating to the transmission of this esoteric wisdom (Chagiga 13a).[1]

The question of the authorship of Zohar has interested scholars in yeshivas and secular academics alike. Those who believe, in accordance with Jewish tradition, that the Zohar is indeed an authentic document of the teachings of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai ( Rashbi), generally agree that part, but not all, of the Zohar was written by Rashbi. The sections of the Zohar that are from Rabbi Shimon himself are described as "the First Mishna," apparently written while hiding in a cave from the Roman authorities who sought to execute him for derogatory statements he had made against them. (Concerning the First Mishna, see Chabura Kadmaa mentioned in Zohar III, p. 219a. See also Zohar II, 123b; vol. III, 296b; Shabbat 33b).

The remainder of the Zohar, like the Talmud, was the product of generations of masters and their disciples. Early sources state that the composition of the Zohar extended over the period of Rashbi, his disciples and their disciples[2] who recorded many of the teachings passed on orally from Rabbi Shimon to his close associates and disciples. Thus its authorship spanned several generations. This view is substantiated by the Zohar itself, as stated in Idra Zuta (Zohar III p. 287b):

[Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai said,] "The holy matters that I did not reveal until now, I wish to reveal in the presence of the Shechina, so that no one will say that I left the world without fulfilling my task and that I concealed [these secrets] in my heart until now so that they would come with me to the World to Come. I will present them to you; Rabbi Abba shall write, and Rabbi Elazar my son will review them, and the remaining circle of disciples must whisper them in their hearts."

One layer of the Zohar was thus clearly written by Rabbi Abba, who hailed from Babylonia, at the behest of his master, Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai.

The original written texts comprising the Zohar were concealed for many centuries, although its present form, following the order of the weekly Torah portions, is of a much later date, most likely from the period of the Geonim, and there are some interpolations from these late editors.[3] (This explains why names of sages who lived several generations after Rashbi also appear in the Zohar). They became revealed only in the thirteenth century and were published by one of the leading kabbalists living in Spain, Rabbi Moshe de Leon. Some believed that the Ramban (Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman c. 4955-5030 (1194-1270 C.E.), himself a renowned Kabbalist, had sent them from Israel by ship to his son in Catalonia, but the ship had been diverted and the texts ended up in the hands of Rabbi Moshe de Leon (Shem HaGedolim, Chida Sefarim, Zayin, 8). Others explained that these manuscripts had been hidden in a vault for a thousand years and had been discovered by an Arabian king who sent them to Toledo to be deciphered. Some maintained that Spanish conquistadors had discovered the manuscripts of the Zohar among many others in an academy in Heidelberg (Shem HaGedolim, ibid.) Other explanations have also been offered. How exactly the Zohar came to be in the possession of Rabbi Moshe de Leon is thus not clear.

Rabbi Moshe de Leon began disseminating the text of the Zohar around the early 1300's. The prevailing academic opinion (although there are some notable dissenters) is that Moshe de Leon himself wrote the Zohar. These claims are based on the testimony of Rabbi Yitzchak of Acco, on an analysis of the names of places mentioned in the Zohar, on linguistic arguments, on the use of terminology which first appeared in medieval times, and so on. Although a comprehensive analysis of all of these arguments is beyond the scope of this essay, some of these arguments will be closely examined.

The earliest record of a systematic inquiry into the Zohar's authorship came from the ranks of the Kabbalists themselves. Rabbi Yitzchak of Acco 5010-5100 (1250-1340 C.E.), a disciple of Ramban (after the latter settled in the Holy Land) and an accomplished kabbalist, decided to examine the question for himself, given the importance of the texts and the gravity of the rumors surrounding its authorship.

The entire account was recorded in Rabbi Yitzchak's Divrei HaYamim, but unfortunately no known manuscripts of this text are extant. Nevertheless, the majority of his account was published in Sefer HaYuchasin (Phillipovski edition, London and Edinburgh 1857) by Rabbi Avraham Zacuto (5185- c. 5275 / 1425- c. 1515 C.E.), although the conclusions Rabbi Yitzchak reached were not recorded. A paraphrase of the account follows:

Rabbi Yitzchak traveled to Spain, and he met Rabbi Moshe de Leon in Vallidolid. The latter swore under oath that he was in possession of the manuscript written by Rabbi Shimon. He averred that the manuscript was in his hometown of Avila and that he would gladly show it to Rabbi Yitzchak there. They parted company, and on the way back home Rabbi Moshe took ill in Arevalo and died there. Rabbi Yitzchak was extremely upset by this turn of events but decided nevertheless to proceed to Avila. There he found a certain David di PanCorbo who divulged to him that he had clarified without any doubts that the a work called Zohar had never come to be in Rabbi Moshe's possession nor was there any such work in existence.

...
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 11:05:24 PM: I have done a bit more research on the Zohar and it is a hotly disputed topic, to say the least.

This page will support rhayat1's assertions that there is questionable information in the Zohar.

http://www.chayas.com/tetsaveh.htm

Despite this, because of tradition and the fact that there is authentic Kabbalah which is also contained in the Zohar, I do not reject it outright.

I listen to many Orthodox Rabbis and the majority of them mention concepts from the Zohar often. I have never learned any Zohar which contradicts the Torah.

I also understand the concept of the Sefirot as not any division of Hashem, but a way of understanding the way he reacts with the Olam... The Torah itself uses various names of Hashem, which we learn to mean that our relationship with him defines the name we use to refer to him {i.e. HE/SHE Hashem/Elokim, Shechina, etc.}

Also it is not honest to argue that anthromorphism in the Zohar proves it is not authentic because we all know that Hashem doesn't have limbs... The Torah itself, in the Parashas we have been reading recently talk about the Right Arm of Hashem, a Mighty Hand of Hashem, etc... We all understand why anthromorphism is used in these cases...

Also, the possibility that the Zohar is not authentic alone doesn't mean that Kabbalah is not authentic because Zohar is just one source of Kabbalah, there are many other good and un-impeachable sources of Kabbalah.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: rhayat1 on January 30, 2010, 08:51:58 PM: Quote from: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 11:05:24 PM
I have done a bit more research on the Zohar and it is a hotly disputed topic, to say the least.

This page will support rhayat1's assertions that there is questionable information in the Zohar.

http://www.chayas.com/tetsaveh.htm

Despite this, because of tradition and the fact that there is authentic Kabbalah which is also contained in the Zohar, I do not reject it outright.

I listen to many Orthodox Rabbis and the majority of them mention concepts from the Zohar often. I have never learned any Zohar which contradicts the Torah.

I also understand the concept of the Sefirot as not any division of Hashem, but a way of understanding the way he reacts with the Olam... The Torah itself uses various names of Hashem, which we learn to mean that our relationship with him defines the name we use to refer to him {i.e. HE/SHE Hashem/Elokim, Shechina, etc.}

Also it is not honest to argue that anthromorphism in the Zohar proves it is not authentic because we all know that Hashem doesn't have limbs... The Torah itself, in the Parashas we have been reading recently talk about the Right Arm of Hashem, a Mighty Hand of Hashem, etc... We all understand why anthromorphism is used in these cases...

Also, the possibility that the Zohar is not authentic alone doesn't mean that Kabbalah is not authentic because Zohar is just one source of Kabbalah, there are many other good and un-impeachable sources of Kabbalah.

Gee thanks! If anybody is truly interested (and yes, I know, it takes a certain amount of courage) I'd be happy to post the main points from the book I wrote proving that the Zohar is a forgery. My book does not go into the concepts contained therein or try to dispute them. It simply proves, beyond any doubt, that the books were all written much later than claimed.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 31, 2010, 07:40:26 AM: Quote from: rhayat1 on January 30, 2010, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 11:05:24 PM
I have done a bit more research on the Zohar and it is a hotly disputed topic, to say the least.

This page will support rhayat1's assertions that there is questionable information in the Zohar.

http://www.chayas.com/tetsaveh.htm

Despite this, because of tradition and the fact that there is authentic Kabbalah which is also contained in the Zohar, I do not reject it outright.

I listen to many Orthodox Rabbis and the majority of them mention concepts from the Zohar often. I have never learned any Zohar which contradicts the Torah.

I also understand the concept of the Sefirot as not any division of Hashem, but a way of understanding the way he reacts with the Olam... The Torah itself uses various names of Hashem, which we learn to mean that our relationship with him defines the name we use to refer to him {i.e. HE/SHE Hashem/Elokim, Shechina, etc.}

Also it is not honest to argue that anthromorphism in the Zohar proves it is not authentic because we all know that Hashem doesn't have limbs... The Torah itself, in the Parashas we have been reading recently talk about the Right Arm of Hashem, a Mighty Hand of Hashem, etc... We all understand why anthromorphism is used in these cases...

Also, the possibility that the Zohar is not authentic alone doesn't mean that Kabbalah is not authentic because Zohar is just one source of Kabbalah, there are many other good and un-impeachable sources of Kabbalah.

Gee thanks! If anybody is truly interested (and yes, I know, it takes a certain amount of courage) I'd be happy to post the main points from the book I wrote proving that the Zohar is a forgery. My book does not go into the concepts contained therein or try to dispute them. It simply proves, beyond any doubt, that the books were all written much later than claimed.

By all means, please share. This has the makings of a fascinating discussion (actually it already is). I will definitely have to look at this thread with what you and Muman have posted in more detail when I have some more time.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: rhayat1 on January 31, 2010, 09:02:08 AM: Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 31, 2010, 07:40:26 AM
Quote from: rhayat1 on January 30, 2010, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 11:05:24 PM
I have done a bit more research on the Zohar and it is a hotly disputed topic, to say the least.

This page will support rhayat1's assertions that there is questionable information in the Zohar.

http://www.chayas.com/tetsaveh.htm

Despite this, because of tradition and the fact that there is authentic Kabbalah which is also contained in the Zohar, I do not reject it outright.

I listen to many Orthodox Rabbis and the majority of them mention concepts from the Zohar often. I have never learned any Zohar which contradicts the Torah.

I also understand the concept of the Sefirot as not any division of Hashem, but a way of understanding the way he reacts with the Olam... The Torah itself uses various names of Hashem, which we learn to mean that our relationship with him defines the name we use to refer to him {i.e. HE/SHE Hashem/Elokim, Shechina, etc.}

Also it is not honest to argue that anthromorphism in the Zohar proves it is not authentic because we all know that Hashem doesn't have limbs... The Torah itself, in the Parashas we have been reading recently talk about the Right Arm of Hashem, a Mighty Hand of Hashem, etc... We all understand why anthromorphism is used in these cases...

Also, the possibility that the Zohar is not authentic alone doesn't mean that Kabbalah is not authentic because Zohar is just one source of Kabbalah, there are many other good and un-impeachable sources of Kabbalah.

Gee thanks! If anybody is truly interested (and yes, I know, it takes a certain amount of courage) I'd be happy to post the main points from the book I wrote proving that the Zohar is a forgery. My book does not go into the concepts contained therein or try to dispute them. It simply proves, beyond any doubt, that the books were all written much later than claimed.

By all means, please share. This has the makings of a fascinating discussion (actually it already is). I will definitely have to look at this thread with what you and Muman have posted in more detail when I have some more time.

I'll post it as a separate thread within the next couple of days and probably in a few installments.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 31, 2010, 12:06:54 PM: Quote from: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 11:05:24 PM
I have done a bit more research on the Zohar and it is a hotly disputed topic, to say the least.

This page will support rhayat1's assertions that there is questionable information in the Zohar.

http://www.chayas.com/tetsaveh.htm

Despite this, because of tradition and the fact that there is authentic Kabbalah which is also contained in the Zohar, I do not reject it outright.

I listen to many Orthodox Rabbis and the majority of them mention concepts from the Zohar often. I have never learned any Zohar which contradicts the Torah.

I also understand the concept of the Sefirot as not any division of Hashem, but a way of understanding the way he reacts with the Olam... The Torah itself uses various names of Hashem, which we learn to mean that our relationship with him defines the name we use to refer to him {i.e. HE/SHE Hashem/Elokim, Shechina, etc.}

Also it is not honest to argue that anthromorphism in the Zohar proves it is not authentic because we all know that Hashem doesn't have limbs... The Torah itself, in the Parashas we have been reading recently talk about the Right Arm of Hashem, a Mighty Hand of Hashem, etc... We all understand why anthromorphism is used in these cases...

Also, the possibility that the Zohar is not authentic alone doesn't mean that Kabbalah is not authentic because Zohar is just one source of Kabbalah, there are many other good and un-impeachable sources of Kabbalah.

Muman what you say sounds reasonable. Personally, I am not certain one way or the other without having seen the proofs, although I do know that very big people held that Moshe De Leon wrote it. And even if it is not really dated to Shimon Bar Yochai, I don't necessarily reject it out of hand (some or all). There are different ways of interpreting it and even then it is only about hashkafa, in which a person is free to take divergent opinions anyway, and in my opinion (as in the opinion of other major authorities past and present) it has no place in a halachic discussion. So if I did reject a certain idea for a given reason that I found compelling (or any person did thus) - ie a contradicting chazal, point of view in Rambam etc etc that I find more correct or suitable - it is perfectly within our rights to reject that given zohar idea which is not binding. I consider zohar to be a hashkafic text, and we do not pasken hashkafa.

Just to elaborate on positions of rabbis I am close with:
My gemara rabbi certainly accepts the zohar's authenticity/tradition - its hashkafa and mystical speculations as speaking accurately about the spiritual world and Judaism. And the revelations of the zohar by the Ari and subsequent authorities (Rashash, Vilna Gaon, Leshem, etc) he also considers weighty opinions and valid points of view. I will have to ask him if he thinks it was written by Shimon Bar Yochai or actually written later, but I am fairly certain that he would say "it doesn't make a difference." He feels the zohar and associated kaballistic works which explain it are true systems of thought with authentic sources in chazal and Judaism. And if he does feel that way, that does not change whether it was written all by Shimon Bar Yochai, or very little preserved from Shimon bar yochai and really written out by M. De leon in the 1200's Spain, or even if De Leon made it up completely.

I know that Rav Bar Hayim's position is emphatically that Moshe DeLeon wrote the Zohar in the 1200-1300's Spain, it certainly cannot be honestly attributed to the tanna Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, and in Rav Bar Hayim's opinion, it is a hashkafic system of looking at the world that no rabbi is beholden to. Neither when paskening a halachic shaila nor in determining his own hashkafa in a given matter based on chazal and the Torah. So Rav Bar Hayim is more strongly rooted in the camp of Rav Yihyehh ZT"L with regard to zohar's authenticity, but at the same time, he is not interested in "combating it" or leading any kind of crusade against it (Which Rav Yihyehh was), he seems to classify it as largely irrelevant to what a Jew needs to do, how to relate to G-d and the world and the Torah, and what a rabbi has to do. He stresses focusing on more pertinent matters (things more pertinent than the divisions of the spiritual worlds into umpteen levels and the collapsing on each other, etc etc), and that hashkafa is open to different ideas within chazal, not pidgeon-holed into one overarching "system" that everyone has to agree to or follow. This position is very different from the vast majority of present-day rabbis, but I find it very reasonable.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: rhayat1 on January 31, 2010, 01:53:10 PM: I just wanted to interject something here. We do have one (and ONLY one, as far as I know) "mystical" work of the Jewish tradition that dates from ancient times: Sefer HaYyesirah, attributed to Ribbi Aqiva. In the days of the Tanaim, the masses spoke Aramaic while Hebrew was the language of the scholarly. No book of "secrets" and nothing "esoteric" would have been written in Aramaic in those days. Sefer haYyesirah deals with math and grammar. It deals with the ten "sefiroth", or numerals (from the same root as "mispar"). Because, in Latin languages, the word "sphere" implies a circle some gnostics and their ilk hijacked the word "sefiroth" and attached it to the concept of "spheres" in the astronomical/ astrological sense.

Why would math and grammar be "secrets"? Most people today are not used to thinking in terms of skills being "secrets". But, through most of history, tradesmen kept their skills secret from others so that they could retain their own status in knowing such things. The same used to apply to science and such. You couldn't just go to a library and check out a book. You didn't just get fed this stuff by your teacher in public school. No, you had to be special to be privy to such matters and (more often than not) such knowledge was passed from father to son or from wizened teacher to disciple. What is taken for granted, by grade-school kids, these days was considered privileged knowledge in the old days. So they spoke in code and used Hebrew, rather than the lingua franca, Aramaic or Greek. The oldest commentary on Sefer haYyesirah was written by Sa'adya Gaon and his interpretation is the same as I just set forward above.
Title: rhayat1
Post by: Natan on February 01, 2010, 09:30:36 PM: interesting story
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: ~Hanna~ on February 01, 2010, 10:17:28 PM: I almost bought a book on Kaballah at Border's bookstore once, it had alot of pages but looked very interesting to read.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on February 01, 2010, 11:22:20 PM: Quote from: ~Hanna~ on February 01, 2010, 10:17:28 PM
I almost bought a book on Kaballah at Border's bookstore once, it had alot of pages but looked very interesting to read.

DO NOT!!!! I REPEAT!!!DO NOTBUY KABBALAH BOOKS AT BORDERS!!!!

One time I was foolish enough to do so.... What I ended up with was a hodgepodge of Enlightened ideas about Kabbalah mixed in with pagan worship from the nations.... It was HORRIBLE
>:(
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: rhayat1 on February 01, 2010, 11:29:35 PM: Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 31, 2010, 12:06:54 PM
Quote from: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 11:05:24 PM
I have done a bit more research on the Zohar and it is a hotly disputed topic, to say the least.

This page will support rhayat1's assertions that there is questionable information in the Zohar.

http://www.chayas.com/tetsaveh.htm

Despite this, because of tradition and the fact that there is authentic Kabbalah which is also contained in the Zohar, I do not reject it outright.

I listen to many Orthodox Rabbis and the majority of them mention concepts from the Zohar often. I have never learned any Zohar which contradicts the Torah.

I also understand the concept of the Sefirot as not any division of Hashem, but a way of understanding the way he reacts with the Olam... The Torah itself uses various names of Hashem, which we learn to mean that our relationship with him defines the name we use to refer to him {i.e. HE/SHE Hashem/Elokim, Shechina, etc.}

Also it is not honest to argue that anthromorphism in the Zohar proves it is not authentic because we all know that Hashem doesn't have limbs... The Torah itself, in the Parashas we have been reading recently talk about the Right Arm of Hashem, a Mighty Hand of Hashem, etc... We all understand why anthromorphism is used in these cases...

Also, the possibility that the Zohar is not authentic alone doesn't mean that Kabbalah is not authentic because Zohar is just one source of Kabbalah, there are many other good and un-impeachable sources of Kabbalah.

Muman what you say sounds reasonable. Personally, I am not certain one way or the other without having seen the proofs, although I do know that very big people held that Moshe De Leon wrote it. And even if it is not really dated to Shimon Bar Yochai, I don't necessarily reject it out of hand (some or all). There are different ways of interpreting it and even then it is only about hashkafa, in which a person is free to take divergent opinions anyway, and in my opinion (as in the opinion of other major authorities past and present) it has no place in a halachic discussion. So if I did reject a certain idea for a given reason that I found compelling (or any person did thus) - ie a contradicting chazal, point of view in Rambam etc etc that I find more correct or suitable - it is perfectly within our rights to reject that given zohar idea which is not binding. I consider zohar to be a hashkafic text, and we do not pasken hashkafa.

Just to elaborate on positions of rabbis I am close with:
My gemara rabbi certainly accepts the zohar's authenticity/tradition - its hashkafa and mystical speculations as speaking accurately about the spiritual world and Judaism. And the revelations of the zohar by the Ari and subsequent authorities (Rashash, Vilna Gaon, Leshem, etc) he also considers weighty opinions and valid points of view. I will have to ask him if he thinks it was written by Shimon Bar Yochai or actually written later, but I am fairly certain that he would say "it doesn't make a difference." He feels the zohar and associated kaballistic works which explain it are true systems of thought with authentic sources in chazal and Judaism. And if he does feel that way, that does not change whether it was written all by Shimon Bar Yochai, or very little preserved from Shimon bar yochai and really written out by M. De leon in the 1200's Spain, or even if De Leon made it up completely.

I know that Rav Bar Hayim's position is emphatically that Moshe DeLeon wrote the Zohar in the 1200-1300's Spain, it certainly cannot be honestly attributed to the tanna Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, and in Rav Bar Hayim's opinion, it is a hashkafic system of looking at the world that no rabbi is beholden to. Neither when paskening a halachic shaila nor in determining his own hashkafa in a given matter based on chazal and the Torah. So Rav Bar Hayim is more strongly rooted in the camp of Rav Yihyehh ZT"L with regard to zohar's authenticity, but at the same time, he is not interested in "combating it" or leading any kind of crusade against it (Which Rav Yihyehh was), he seems to classify it as largely irrelevant to what a Jew needs to do, how to relate to G-d and the world and the Torah, and what a rabbi has to do. He stresses focusing on more pertinent matters (things more pertinent than the divisions of the spiritual worlds into umpteen levels and the collapsing on each other, etc etc), and that hashkafa is open to different ideas within chazal, not pidgeon-holed into one overarching "system" that everyone has to agree to or follow. This position is very different from the vast majority of present-day rabbis, but I find it very reasonable.

"Rav Yihyehh" - are you referring to Mori Yihyeh alGafih?
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 02, 2010, 04:08:11 PM: Quote from: rhayat1 on February 01, 2010, 11:29:35 PM
Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 31, 2010, 12:06:54 PM
Quote from: muman613 on January 27, 2010, 11:05:24 PM
I have done a bit more research on the Zohar and it is a hotly disputed topic, to say the least.

This page will support rhayat1's assertions that there is questionable information in the Zohar.

http://www.chayas.com/tetsaveh.htm

Despite this, because of tradition and the fact that there is authentic Kabbalah which is also contained in the Zohar, I do not reject it outright.

I listen to many Orthodox Rabbis and the majority of them mention concepts from the Zohar often. I have never learned any Zohar which contradicts the Torah.

I also understand the concept of the Sefirot as not any division of Hashem, but a way of understanding the way he reacts with the Olam... The Torah itself uses various names of Hashem, which we learn to mean that our relationship with him defines the name we use to refer to him {i.e. HE/SHE Hashem/Elokim, Shechina, etc.}

Also it is not honest to argue that anthromorphism in the Zohar proves it is not authentic because we all know that Hashem doesn't have limbs... The Torah itself, in the Parashas we have been reading recently talk about the Right Arm of Hashem, a Mighty Hand of Hashem, etc... We all understand why anthromorphism is used in these cases...

Also, the possibility that the Zohar is not authentic alone doesn't mean that Kabbalah is not authentic because Zohar is just one source of Kabbalah, there are many other good and un-impeachable sources of Kabbalah.

Muman what you say sounds reasonable. Personally, I am not certain one way or the other without having seen the proofs, although I do know that very big people held that Moshe De Leon wrote it. And even if it is not really dated to Shimon Bar Yochai, I don't necessarily reject it out of hand (some or all). There are different ways of interpreting it and even then it is only about hashkafa, in which a person is free to take divergent opinions anyway, and in my opinion (as in the opinion of other major authorities past and present) it has no place in a halachic discussion. So if I did reject a certain idea for a given reason that I found compelling (or any person did thus) - ie a contradicting chazal, point of view in Rambam etc etc that I find more correct or suitable - it is perfectly within our rights to reject that given zohar idea which is not binding. I consider zohar to be a hashkafic text, and we do not pasken hashkafa.

Just to elaborate on positions of rabbis I am close with:
My gemara rabbi certainly accepts the zohar's authenticity/tradition - its hashkafa and mystical speculations as speaking accurately about the spiritual world and Judaism. And the revelations of the zohar by the Ari and subsequent authorities (Rashash, Vilna Gaon, Leshem, etc) he also considers weighty opinions and valid points of view. I will have to ask him if he thinks it was written by Shimon Bar Yochai or actually written later, but I am fairly certain that he would say "it doesn't make a difference." He feels the zohar and associated kaballistic works which explain it are true systems of thought with authentic sources in chazal and Judaism. And if he does feel that way, that does not change whether it was written all by Shimon Bar Yochai, or very little preserved from Shimon bar yochai and really written out by M. De leon in the 1200's Spain, or even if De Leon made it up completely.

I know that Rav Bar Hayim's position is emphatically that Moshe DeLeon wrote the Zohar in the 1200-1300's Spain, it certainly cannot be honestly attributed to the tanna Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, and in Rav Bar Hayim's opinion, it is a hashkafic system of looking at the world that no rabbi is beholden to. Neither when paskening a halachic shaila nor in determining his own hashkafa in a given matter based on chazal and the Torah. So Rav Bar Hayim is more strongly rooted in the camp of Rav Yihyehh ZT"L with regard to zohar's authenticity, but at the same time, he is not interested in "combating it" or leading any kind of crusade against it (Which Rav Yihyehh was), he seems to classify it as largely irrelevant to what a Jew needs to do, how to relate to G-d and the world and the Torah, and what a rabbi has to do. He stresses focusing on more pertinent matters (things more pertinent than the divisions of the spiritual worlds into umpteen levels and the collapsing on each other, etc etc), and that hashkafa is open to different ideas within chazal, not pidgeon-holed into one overarching "system" that everyone has to agree to or follow. This position is very different from the vast majority of present-day rabbis, but I find it very reasonable.

"Rav Yihyehh" - are you referring to Mori Yihyeh alGafih?

Yes. He is referred to as "Rav Yihyehh" in the article you posted, but yes, this does refer to Mori/ Rabbi Yihyeh Qafih or however it is spelled in English. Not to be confused with his grandson Rabbi Yosef Qafih (or as commonly known as "Kapach").
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Moshe92 on February 02, 2010, 04:26:34 PM: Quote from: muman613 on February 01, 2010, 11:22:20 PM
Quote from: ~Hanna~ on February 01, 2010, 10:17:28 PM
I almost bought a book on Kaballah at Border's bookstore once, it had alot of pages but looked very interesting to read.

DO NOT!!!! I REPEAT!!!DO NOTBUY KABBALAH BOOKS AT BORDERS!!!!

One time I was foolish enough to do so.... What I ended up with was a hodgepodge of Enlightened ideas about Kabbalah mixed in with pagan worship from the nations.... It was HORRIBLE
>:(

You're right. Most of those books are more like the Britney Spears "kaballah."
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: ~Hanna~ on February 03, 2010, 02:06:26 AM: Ok, sorry.

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

I said I almost did, but I did not.

you made me cry.

Quote from: muman613 on February 01, 2010, 11:22:20 PM
Quote from: ~Hanna~ on February 01, 2010, 10:17:28 PM
I almost bought a book on Kaballah at Border's bookstore once, it had alot of pages but looked very interesting to read.

DO NOT!!!! I REPEAT!!!DO NOTBUY KABBALAH BOOKS AT BORDERS!!!!

One time I was foolish enough to do so.... What I ended up with was a hodgepodge of Enlightened ideas about Kabbalah mixed in with pagan worship from the nations.... It was HORRIBLE
>:(
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: ~Hanna~ on February 03, 2010, 09:43:59 AM: :(
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Ulli on February 03, 2010, 11:44:11 AM: Quote from: rhayat1 on January 27, 2010, 06:59:49 AM
When the "Kabbalah" was first introduced to Ashkenazic Jewish society, in the late middle ages, some leading rabbis suspected something was foul. They couldn't come out against it because it had already gained some credibility in Sephardic circles and it would cause a rift. So, in an effort to protect the population from heretical ideas contained in the Kabbalah, they came up with the "under 40" rule - knowing full well that this would prevent most Jews from ever studying it (many died before that age anyway) and, once they did study it, the basic tenets of the Jewish faith would already be ensconced in their minds, making them resistant to the foreign concepts contained in books such as the Zohar.

Soon I'll post what I found out about the book "Sefer haRazim" - later reincarnated as "Raziel haMalakh". In a nutshell, this book is full of idolatry, prayers to Greek, Egyptian and Roman gods and descriptions of sacrifices that should be made to them. But it was written in Hebrew. The Rambam came out against the book and forced it underground. Shortly thereafter, the book "Raziel haMalakh" came out. It was not as blatantly heathen as haRazim, but it still contained a prayer to the sun and makes frequent mention of Aphrodite. Raziel haMalakh is mentioned three times in the Zohar (in a favorable context) and it is still used today as a charm against fire and to protect the newborn.

When my son was born in Israel, my (then) wife place a copy of Raziel next to him. I took it out and defaced it. She found out and confronted me in front of a prominent rabbi. The rabbi demanded why I would do such a thing. I showed him the things that are written in it and he, being a well-educated American (a disciple of the late Moshe Feinstein), recognized it for what it was. He purged the abomination from his own home and admitted I had won this battle.

Jews are so smart. I like the idea with the 40 year rule. So it is not banned and open for discussion, but only by people who are able to put the ideas in it in the right category.

:) :) :)
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 03, 2010, 01:09:27 PM: Quote from: ~Hanna~ on February 03, 2010, 02:06:26 AM

you made me cry.

I don't think he meant it like that. He was just trying to help you so that you don't get misled by distorted ideas. He was urging you to be cautious about this; he was not saying you did anything wrong. I think you may have misinterpreted what he meant.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: muman613 on February 03, 2010, 01:36:20 PM: Quote from: ~Hanna~ on February 03, 2010, 09:43:59 AM
:(

Hanna,

I was not saying you did anything wrong, certainly not something you should cry about. But I learned that what they sell in bookstores like Borders in their 'Jewish' section is often not authentic Judaism but a pop-culture Judaism which melds many different philosophies into the 'Jewish' perspective. I find these books very deceptive and this is why I recommend against buying books from these kinds of bookstores.

This is the book I bought and regretted : http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Art-Lovingkindness-Preparing-Spiritual/dp/1594731519
Quote

We are all born in the image of God, but living out the likeness of God is a choice. This inspiring, practical guidebook provides you with the tools you need to realize the divinity within yourself, recognize the divinity within others, and act on the obligation to manifest God's infinite compassion in your own life.

Guided by Rabbi Rami Shapiro, you will explore Judaism's Thirteen Attributes of Lovingkindness as the framework for cultivating a life of goodness. Shapiro translates these attributes into practices--drawn from the teachings of a variety of faith traditions--that allow you to actualize God's glory through personal deeds of lovingkindness. You will enrich your own capacity for lovingkindness as you:
Harvest kindness through compassionate honesty
Make room in your heart for reality
Recognize the manifestations of God
Embrace the paradoxical truth of not-knowing
Be present in the moment
Do right by others

With candor, wit, and honesty, Shapiro shows you that by choosing to act out of love rather than fear, with kindness rather than anger, you can transform how you perceive the world and ultimately lead a more complete spiritual life.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: ~Hanna~ on February 03, 2010, 11:19:37 PM: ok.....I thought you were angry at me....I saw that angry face....

I understand....it is like Kaballah is becoming apostate now.....

Quote from: muman613 on February 03, 2010, 01:36:20 PM
Quote from: ~Hanna~ on February 03, 2010, 09:43:59 AM
:(

Hanna,

I was not saying you did anything wrong, certainly not something you should cry about. But I learned that what they sell in bookstores like Borders in their 'Jewish' section is often not authentic Judaism but a pop-culture Judaism which melds many different philosophies into the 'Jewish' perspective. I find these books very deceptive and this is why I recommend against buying books from these kinds of bookstores.

This is the book I bought and regretted : http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Art-Lovingkindness-Preparing-Spiritual/dp/1594731519
Quote

We are all born in the image of G-d, but living out the likeness of G-d is a choice. This inspiring, practical guidebook provides you with the tools you need to realize the divinity within yourself, recognize the divinity within others, and act on the obligation to manifest G-d's infinite compassion in your own life.

Guided by Rabbi Rami Shapiro, you will explore Judaism's Thirteen Attributes of Lovingkindness as the framework for cultivating a life of goodness. Shapiro translates these attributes into practices--drawn from the teachings of a variety of faith traditions--that allow you to actualize G-d's glory through personal deeds of lovingkindness. You will enrich your own capacity for lovingkindness as you:
Harvest kindness through compassionate honesty
Make room in your heart for reality
Recognize the manifestations of G-d
Embrace the paradoxical truth of not-knowing
Be present in the moment
Do right by others

With candor, wit, and honesty, Shapiro shows you that by choosing to act out of love rather than fear, with kindness rather than anger, you can transform how you perceive the world and ultimately lead a more complete spiritual life.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 04, 2010, 04:16:42 AM: Kaballah is and always has been controversial, but now that it is more "mainstream" and popularized, the opportunity has been created for charlatans to step in and hijack it and distort it and teach it improperly when they have no idea what they are really talking about, and they teach it also to people who have no business learning it. And charlatans of the highest order have certainly stepped in. That is why you hear stories about Madonna "learning" "kaballah" - a disgrace.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: ~Hanna~ on February 04, 2010, 04:17:37 PM: yes.

There are many denominations of church's that are becoming apostate....some are adding in teachings and practices of the New Age movement and calling it "Christianity" it is insane.

Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 04, 2010, 04:16:42 AM
Kaballah is and always has been controversial, but now that it is more "mainstream" and popularized, the opportunity has been created for charlatans to step in and hijack it and distort it and teach it improperly when they have no idea what they are really talking about, and they teach it also to people who have no business learning it. And charlatans of the highest order have certainly stepped in. That is why you hear stories about Madonna "learning" "kaballah" - a disgrace.
Title: Re: What parts of Kabalah are off limits until age 40?
Post by: Lubab on February 22, 2010, 07:04:01 PM: While there were restriction on who may learn Kabbalah...those restrictions applies up and until the time of the Ari"zal. He proclaimed that it is a "mitvah" (righteous deed) to reveal the widsom of the kabbalah. So it's no longer off limits to anyone. Just be sure you're learning it from a good teacher.